LED grow lights... input please.

[turtle420]

Hello guys,

I'm exchanging eMails with a representative from a LED company. I asked him if they could produce a custom light for growing, and here's what he told me:

Our options are as follow:
940nm, 850nm, 660nm, 630nm, 610nm, 590nm
570nm, 530nm, 510nm, 470nm, 460nm, 400nm
and a total of 64 LEDs in the bulb.



I've got in my grow notebook the following quote from a post:::
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
for good growing you need blue, red and deep red spectrum. for clorophile A you need 400-430nm of blue and 650-670 nm of red. for clorophile B you need 420-470 nm of blue and 620-650 nm of red.
peak absorbtions are at A: 425 and 660 nm, and at B: 450 and 630.
the power of spectrum should be stronger in red spectrum (arround 85-90%), others arround 5% of each. i did some test grows, but i only used 470 and 630 spectrum and the plants looked just fine. if you give them all the spectrum (for A and B type), they will grow even better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What do you guys think? I think this is great oportunity, they're offering to build a couple of prototypes so we can test them out. At the very least, we're all going to win from this.

There are two threads I'm following on the boards of Overgrow.com about LED lights, but it's just a mess in those boards. I preffer to discuss this here with you guys.

As to the power, the anlges of the LEDs, the soldering, voltage, amperages, etc. I'm pretty sure we'll hammer that out with the company engineers.

What I'm looking in this thread is some solid advice on what would be our best trial run... what LEDs to use?

I don't know what you think, but initially, I'm thinking we should try two types of bulbs: One for vegetative growth (blue). The other for flowering (red).
Suggestions?

Thanks,

-turtle420 :cool:

[BobBong]

LED...

as in .. light emitting diodes?

That would make no sense...

Looking into it Turtle..

[BobBong]

helps to checkout the link first i guess..

Bulbs composed of LED's.. interesting.... extremely interesting..

for those who don't really know what LED's are.. they're in pretty much every electronic device now.. anything with a green,red or blue little light. (ie.keyboard,monitor,printer,tv..etc)

Keep us updated man.. very interesting

I could see the use.. but the logistics of it are beyond me.

[turtle420]

Actually, it would...

LEDs are shitload more efficient than incandescent bulbs... and CFLs... and HPS... and MH...

BobBong,
This would be a big panel with 64 LEDs... not some small thing with 3 or 4 LEDs...

Among the adantages of LEDs:
-Very little heat (CFLs are pretty hot, compared to LEDs)
-very efficient (if have 400W of LEDs... Jesus! You'll have a mini-sun!)
-They produce narrow frequencies of light, instead of many colors of light

Thanks for the input Bob! Here's a link you might find interesting:
http://www.ledgrowlights.com/GrowlightKits.htm
But again, we're looking to make something better than what these guys have.

Keep those brains turning!

[budman2000]

Hey, if it will help the plants grow better Im all for it. Im not very smart with all of that technical stuff but I am an experianced grower. I would love to test the light. Anything better that my MH and HPS I would love to try out.Peace out and keep us updated. :)

[turtle420]

BudMan, BobBong,

Excellent! I'm waiting on the input from growers with more technical knowledge (Zandor!!!) to give us some input.

All the updates should be here, as it's from here that I'll be taking the information to send over to the LED company.

Thanks guys,

-turtle420 :cool:

[turtle420]

Bumpity bump? Please, this could be good... Some input, please.

Which LED wavelengths would you pick?

[notanovice]

from what i understand and have read, it`s not been researched enough to give dependable results, it all sounds good on paper, sounds like it would work, but i havent seen anything that proves it to be better yet. i`m sure it will and that they would cost an arm and a leg to aquire.
as far as your experience goes turtle, dont get your First grow all confused up with all these new ways, they may all be good ways, but keep it simple the first time around and as your experience grows, so will your actual growing knowledge, reading up on that stuff is real good to do(it seems like you have done alot of that)but there aint nothing like actual hands on experience.
good luck on your future grows

[turtle420]

NotaNovice,

Thanks for the suggestion ;)

I'm not aiming to use these LEDs in this 1st grow of mine... What I was thinking is that we can try and come up with the best wavelength solution, then order up three or four bulbs... Then, some of us, try this as a side-experiment.

No, you're right... I wouldn't (and won't) replace my HPS/MH with these LEDs for this grow... but if I get my hands on them? Ufff... I'll build another cabinet in one day! Not so much airflow needed... etc. etc. etc...

Thanks for the input Nota!

[seedbare]

some of these new taillights (red) in color put out alot of light, and they are already built into a reflective base, worth a shot.

[turtle420]

Yeah, definitely...

I think that our advantage here is that we can build a custom light. There are various wavelengths of red (nm), ... the company I'm speaking with has LEDs that are able to produce the ones listed at the top of this thread.

I don't think people in these boards actually are understanding the situation:
Yes, it's new stuff, un-proven... BUT, the company is on OUR side... They're willing to go the extra mile (making custom bulbs!!!) for us... they know, and we know, it's a win/win situation.

I think I'm going to pick some wavelengths to the best of my abilities, and ask the company for a price quote on that prototype. Once I've got that, if it isn't too much $$$, I'll fork it over to them, and as soon as I receive the bulb, I'll do a controlled-setup grow to see how it turns out.

One thing I'm thinking, from a marketing success point of view, is that we shouldn't ask the company to cram both vegetative and flowering wavelengths into ONE bulb. Growers nowadays are acustomed to having bulbs for veg and bulbs for flowering... Even if it's better, I would preffer to have one bulb for veg (blue) and one bulb for flowering (red).

Now, I'm thinking:
VEGETATIVE bulb --->
................90% blue nm
................10% red nm
..........nm....# LEDs
..........630...2
..........660...2
..........400...30
..........460...30

FLOWERING bulb --->
................90% red nm
................10% blue nm
..........nm....# LEDs
..........630...30
..........660...30
..........400...2
..........460...2

Any and all input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

-turtle420 :cool:

[seedbare]

ok I have looked into this and the perception is its a 2 to 1

[seedbare]

shit... anyway the perception is its a 2 to 1 ratio in favor of the red lights. Now im not sure if you get the different colored lights because the glass is that color or the bulbs themselves are of a different spectrum of light any idea's? they have some on ebay right now only from 1 person though for 85 bucks for blues and 119 for reds (ouch) I think I like my idea better and build it out of one of those reflective tail lights. my car actually has those exact same kind of led lights, and they are bright as fuck. you can replace each of those little lights (theres hundreds) with any color you care too (still wondering about the spectrum though).

[seedbare]

in fact I have seen those same damm lights on the back of trucks they look like red reflectors but they have the bright led dots all over them when they turn on there lights you seen those? those would be cheap and commercially available.

[turtle420]

Seedbare,

Yeah man... I know the tailights that you're talking about... Mercedes Benz have started using them for about 3-4 years (I think). And I've seen since about 2 years ago many retrofit bulbs made out of LEDs but for the normal bulbs' sockets. I've seen those especially in the tailights of public transport buses... they've replaced their normal bulbs with those LED paneled lights... And I've also seen them on traffic lights... Instead of that HUGE 10/12" incandescent bulb, now they've got a circular panel of LEDs... they look prettier...

Anyways, back to our point:
They make the different colors depending on the materials they use for the LED themselves. Those are n-type and p-type semiconductors with a special mix in the middle... when they vary different elements in that "special mix", they get different colors. Of course, they also color the plastic housings to 'give' more color to the, um, color.

I don't know if we're looking at the same eBay lights, but yeah, $$$ !!!

Your ratio of 2:1, I think, is right on. But we can by-pass that by using different bulbs: one for vegetative (blue) and one for flowering (red). That's why I picked the 90%/10% ratios on our hypothetical bulbs above. I would imagine that during flowering, the plants need at least some blue light... Same as during vegetative, the plants need some red light.

I don't know SeedBare... please keep on thinking about this. I'd really like to come up with some sort of 'bulb' specifications to send this company... They build the bulbs, we test them out.

Looking forward to you opinion SeedBare... :)

-turtle420 :cool:

[seedbare]

I also have another crazy idea i have seen led christmas lights (without a colored lens) in dollar stores I say get about a dozen of these strings of lights arrange them in a circle tie with some duct tape and wala a perfectly useable grow light, im sure they sell them in reds and blues.. I would want to confirm they can grow plants....

[seedbare]

the big advantage to these bulbs is they claim they grow plants as well as hid lighting, they are very energy effiecient 10watts instead of 1000watts they are cool (no airconditioning, fans) which means no helicoptors picking up heat signatures, now they do make uv led lights I wonder if that's what there using??? they dont depend upon lumens but upon the wavelength of light (they claim 100% usage of wavelength) now this all sounds well and good but the real test would be growing with them.

[turtle420]

Seedbare,

What bulbs/systems are you looking @ that claim 100% usage of wavelength?

Can you provide a link? Are we talking about the ones @ eBay?

[seedbare]

it could have been the ebay site on there store at ebay they have some stuff on them Ill look and come back and tell you, Ive been looking at alot of sites though.

[seedbare]

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EtTDVqdHr_EJ:www.ledtronics.com/ds/plantled/Commercial-Growing-Analysis-Recommend-s.pdf+grow+efficiency+led+lighting+plants&hl=en

[seedbare]

hey turtle420 I found some really cheap led bulbs that fit standard 120v socket (are you in the states?) in red and blues (these people have got to be selling them for this purpose) anyway they range from 7 to 23 bucks, I can email you the link if youd like. so I dont believe it will be necessary to have something created and its cheaper this way anyway.

[turtle420]

SeedBare,

Very very usefull... interesting... reading it right now...

As to sending me he link, yes please; ineedit06 at hushmail.com
Yeah, I'm in the states.

Reading right now... I'll re-post in a little while... ;)

We're on to something seedbare! I tell you! We're on to something!

[seedbare]

superbrightleds.com

some of those bulbs you use with the 12vdc thing you plug into the wall, but some of them use standard 120vdc not all of the bulbs are the right ones just the ones in which you can choose the color (hate to point out the obvious but hey)

[lemonboy]

some of those bulbs you use with the 12vdc thing you plug into the wall, but some of them use standard 120vdc not all of the bulbs are the right ones just the ones in which you can choose the color (hate to point out the obvious but hey)[/QUOTE]On that site it says "We do not offer anything bright enough for general household lighting. LED bulbs are used for accent and other low light applications." They can't be appropriate for growing.

[seedbare]

growing with led's has nothing to do with lumens or brightness. it has to do with wavelength.

[Rezinator]

Guys,

Just blow this off if it has no bearing but two things came to mind from this novice's collected fragments of info on grow lighting.

1. Is that often mentioned rule of thumb applicable to other bulb types where isn't overall wattage supposed to be a significant measure of growing capability?

2. Other thing was the prism effect in nature... suggesting here that in considering a selection of wave lengths you - being more familiar with basic fundamentals than me - could prob refine estimated wave lengths on the basis of calculating differences in angles - seasonal changes - and then finding the true or existing data on the refraction and prismatic effects of the atmosphere - and somehow come by better figures for the wavelengths that way.

Sorry if totally inapplicable tho.

turtle420, did you get the impression that we would be stuck with the round format? Would there be any advantages to rectangular arrays?

Nice find tho, really interesting, given the reduced heat advantages.
All the exhaust/blower $$$ could go back into the lighting but I'd definitely downplay that aspect in discussions with the R&D dudes.

Out.

[seedbare]

Yeah according too the led light study you would need about 216 (around there) watts of led lighting to equal 1 1000w hps light.

someone in the uk is selling the rectangular red led's cheaply just search under led lights at ebay and you'll get about 31,000 hits. from everything I have seen so far you would need to buy many many led bulbs to equal 200 watts

[turtle420]

Rezinator,

I think that the rule of thumb of watts for growing capability, does apply.

As to the different wavelengths just as in nature... the idea kicks-ass. It would be very cool to have an LED array that, instead of turning ON/OFF, could start shutting off individual LEDs in the time-frame of, say, 30 minutes. So, during those 30 minutes, the plants will get a quasi-sunset effect, with different colors of light and everything. Interesting...

As to the round/rectangular array... yes, that's one of the advantages that we can have... we can basically build any kind of shape with these LEDs. I would preffer round for simplicity... BUT, ideally? I would have rectangular shaped panels of LEDs. You could hang those on top of the plants and on the sides... I mean, one of these panels will probably be about 1, maybe 2 inches thick. So they will be pretty versatile regarding mounting options.

I can envision a grow cabinet with all the walls and the "roof" covered in LED panels... wow... those plants must really get some wavelengths!

Over and out... keep us updated everyone!

-turtle420 :cool:

PS: Sorry if this post is kind of incoherent... I'm still half-asleep.

[seattle420]

what are you trying to do? save money on electricty?

grow your own marijuana, the regular way and give up on your led dream

[turtle420]

what are you trying to do? save money on electricty?

grow your own marijuana, the regular way and give up on your led dream

Thanks for your input seattle. :)

[Garden Knowm]

Hey Turtle... just get a couple lights and try it.. shit... you don't need to grow MJ... just get one of those bulbs and put it in a desk lamp and try some tomatoes.. or even better yet get a tomato clone...
worth doing just to say .. you did it!!! noty the stealing part,, the led part

love is you

[ilyas]

i feel that the theoretical phase has to end somehow. just one guy saying "i'm growing mj s now, and leds are working well.", will be a great enthusiasm for all of us.

my place is not proper for growing anymore. but i think i'll find a place to use these leds as fast as i can.

[litespeed]

With lights I have found that from 400, to 600 there is a different in the plant and thc and from 600 to 1000 the same:one plant... and at this point I'm working with some LED on 12 VDC at what would be about 1750 to 1800 watts. with some UV light in the mix and so far they are doing supper good. the grand kids broke my cam os i'm sol and can't send pic. after I buy the LED's every thing is on 12 VDC fans pumps all... and I found the cooler you keep the led's they last longer... this is the first grow this way. there on 24/0 then 12/12 in 3rd week so far. from seeds about 6 1/2'' to 7'' tall. fat coles.. just make shur you get the right things in the LED's,,, SOME are FU*KED for what you are doing.

[seedbare]

there are a few threads about people growing with led's on overgrow.com (use the search engine there)

[turtle420]

With lights I have found that from 400, to 600 there is a different in the plant and thc and from 600 to 1000 the same:one plant... and at this point I'm working with some LED on 12 VDC at what would be about 1750 to 1800 watts. with some UV light in the mix and so far they are doing supper good. the grand kids broke my cam os i'm sol and can't send pic. after I buy the LED's every thing is on 12 VDC fans pumps all... and I found the cooler you keep the led's they last longer... this is the first grow this way. there on 24/0 then 12/12 in 3rd week so far. from seeds about 6 1/2'' to 7'' tall. fat coles.. just make shur you get the right things in the LED's,,, SOME are FU*KED for what you are doing.


LiteSpeed,

When you get a cam, can you post pics ASAP? Please... These LEDs that your using... did you fabricate them your self?

You say you have about 1800 watts... of LEDs?! How big is the setup?
And about those fans and pumps... ??? Have you found that the LEDs have to be cooled? As to they last longer::: about what the average lifespan of your LEDs?

What wavelengths (nm) are you using?

Can we get some pictures? Pretty please...

[litespeed]

puter fans on the base of the led 20c. low 60's or lower. they will last from 5 to 7 years, all fish tank stuff reworked to 12 VDC heaters pumps, timers, car heater fan for plant. friend is a (EE) did most of the work for me there 6 lights 8 inch each and cover the plant. 4 sides and 2 on top this is only a trial to see what they will do if it works or not. need a battery-charge and battery. Lights 400 to 500nm and 575 to 700nm and the UV's I don't remember what they are. the set is 4' X 4' X 8' hight.
sorry about the pictures the grandkids broke the cam. and I 'm on fix income. where i'm at one plant will get you $2,500 first time and 1 year jail. They let the meth cookers go free. we have 30 DEA in town looking for the green, man they have got 6 18 whellers full so far in a town of 350 people. and they said they can not burn it here for it will put the people in the hospital they say it is worst then PCP. if they burn it. all B S...

[turtle420]

Fuck damn litespeed... that town of yours seems fucked up by the DEA. Hope they leave soon. Stay safe.

But on another note; you're a town that so far, the DEA has hauled out six 18-wheelers full of weed... you bunch of stoners! LoL!!!

Hey man, sounds very intereseting your setup. Please keep us up to date when possible ;)

Is this your first LED grow?
Is this your first cannabis grow? (just asking)
Have you noticed major differences in???::: growing speed? flowering?

Question (yet another one): Do you 'divide' your bulbs and turn them on at different times? Or do your turn on the entire LED setup at once? . . . I mean, do you have special LEDs for flowering, and others for vegetative? Or do you follow the entire grow cycle with the full set of LEDs?

Sorry for such many questions... Thanks for the possible answers!

Looking forward to your comments,

-turtle420 :cool:


Here are two threads I'm following over @ Overgrow.com:
http://www.overgrow.com/edge/showthread.php?t=610688&onlyuser=&perpage=15?pagenumber=29
http://www.overgrow.com/edge/showthread.php?t=695854&onlyuser=&perpage=15?pagenumber=5

[litespeed]

I have been growin since the 60.
This is the first with LED. at a little over 3 weeks.
so far it looks like they are growing a little faster then with HID & HPS. all I can do is wate & C :D :cool:
have not got to the sex or flowering yet. this is from seeds.
The LED's Lights 400 to 500nm and 575 to 700nm and the UV's spectrum one light for every thing.
as the plant grows I will turn on more light. there are only 4 on it now. out of 6. we set the lights up like the (Sun) out side. duplicatethe Sun... the double EE say's I'm not the sharpest knife and i tell him he has No common sense. and we get long fine. electronic is not my thing, so have to leave that to some one that knows it. The threads your following over @ Overgrow.com: and what you post here he said look good. and we are talking about doing the 2 light way also. 1 for grow and 1 for flowering. He thinks that the all in one is the better way to go there 2 that has more red and 2 that have more blue all I can do is see what they do...
as for stoners, this part of tn puts out all most as much as cal. in green. last year they say this part sold about 2.5 B thats after the dea/th come here.

[Trichome Creator]

Seems like a more expensive route than HID's.

[turtle420]

Seems like a more expensive route than HID's.

Definitely my good friend.

I think we're still about 4 or 5 years off using LEDs for grows. I've seen insane setups in Overgrow.com of about 5,000 LEDs... ALL soldered by HAND?!!!!

Sorry, but I preffer to cough up some $$$ than to make 10,000 soldering points. But, tCreator, please keep us updated with the LED thoughts that cross your mind. I'm still very much interested. Maybe as supplementals.
??? :) Great to see you posting here!!!

[Trichome Creator]

Definitely my good friend.

I think we're still about 4 or 5 years off using LEDs for grows. I've seen insane setups in Overgrow.com of about 5,000 LEDs... ALL soldered by HAND?!!!!

Sorry, but I preffer to cough up some $$$ than to make 10,000 soldering points. But, tCreator, please keep us updated with the LED thoughts that cross your mind. I'm still very much interested. Maybe as supplementals.
??? :) Great to see you posting here!!!

Will do. I'm tired of the lounge lizards.

[turtle420]

I'm tired of the lounge lizards.
Man, I just don't understand this expression. Care to shed some light? Thanks :)

[sheist]

stores lyk CVS, Target, Walmart.. they sell LED lamps.. with like 64 mini bumbs that make this bright ass fuckin lamp, i had a LED flashlight n it had 3.. could we use a couple of those to produce the same/similar effect on the plants??

If we try it on other plants... and they grow.. the mary J should too grow.. right?? so someone go head n get a couple tulip seeds or somethin and try it out!

[turtle420]

...

[Trichome Creator]

AHA!
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/light_farming_010926.html

[Trichome Creator]

You owe me some buds for that one mister.

[turtle420]

tCreator,
Please start a new thread with a cool title, like
Sulfur Microwave Lamp....

I... Am..... Sa... Li.... Va... Ting....

[Trichome Creator]

Wipe off the drool and check your e-mail. :)

[Trichome Creator]

http://www.iloveled.com/MerchItemEN2.aspx?
http://www.del-lighting.com/led_lighting.html
http://www.lumileds.com/
http://www.theledlight.com/
http://www.innovativelight.com/

Oh look out! I'm on a roll.

[Trichome Creator]

And here's the killer. Hold on your gonna shit yourself!
http://www.solaroasis.com/
BAM!
Am I fucking good or what! :)

[Trichome Creator]

OMFG It's for sale and it's cheap!!! I think I'm gonna shit MYSELF!

[FERMENTATION]

So, whats shakin' bakin'? :dance: I'm new here. Actually this is my first p:thumbsup:st. I'm thrilled with the prospect of using LED growlights. However none of the ones for sale are quite up to PAR, haha I made a joke, yeah I'm a dork. I know this thread was started with the intent of Turtle420 getting a custom job done. I am thinking custom is the way to go. I'm going to look into getting 2' x 4' panels made with equal parts blue (400-470nm) and red (620-670nm) in 48 4' rows on each panel. I read somewhere about an experiment that was done with pusating light to increase yields... the LED's could be set for two on/off cycles each second during flowering (it would be like 12/12 (equal light/dark) but it would be a 24/7 flicker. Anyone know anything about that?

Turtle what was the cost estimate for your project?

TCreator, nice links. theres some good info in some of them.

Why did this just die?

Bump Bump Bump... what is that. It's just the monster under your bed.


Ferment... Now damnit!

[sheist]

u can just order the bulbs, according to the website you can screw'm into a standard socket.. so I'd suggest u get a couple of those bul bsocket plug things and make ur own fixture, save urself a bunch of money..


their fixtures are lyk 300 n wutnot.. just get the bulbs..



remember.. to start them off use more blue spectrum, thats what they need more during vegetative growth.. put in a little red spectrum to keep the juices flowin..

[FERMENTATION]

Is anyone aware if there is any drift in an LED's wavelength (what is the actual light output of an LED rated at say 635nm?) Is it something like 625-645nm in actuality? Just thought I would bring the question up, I will email an LED company and then post the answer up here.

[sheist]

nothin lyk that at all.. its the spectrum of light.. plants do much better with blue spectrum of light during vegetation.. one of the most concentrated areas of wavelength is about 415nm on the spectrum scale.. the 635 is in the red area, that wavelength is strong but it promotes flowering, so its for the flowering stage mostly.. u can use a little of it to promote ur vegetative growth.. when u have the red spectrum on for flowering, use a little blue spectrum, tthis will help the plant continue to grow and mature.. its the wavelength, you're thinking lumens...


lumens are measure of light seen by the human eye... we can't judge a plants growth by a human measuremant.. when plants use the light for photosynthessis, they're absorbing the blue and red wavelengths.. you should be in just a good shape as u'd be if u tried growing with cfls.. cus ur still providing the energy source..

[FERMENTATION]

No. I am thinking of the wavelength measurement of nanometers. I will take your example of a 635nm LED. Now this LED is sold as 635nm. Is 635nm it's median wavelegth? Does it for instance product light in the 630nm and 640nm range? I am not in any way refering to the lumen output which is a useless measurement as far as plants are concerned.

[sheist]

oooooh... then yea, it produces light in the 630-640nm range... out of the other parts of the spectrum, the 600s

[turtle420]

No. I am thinking of the wavelength measurement of nanometers. I will take your example of a 635nm LED. Now this LED is sold as 635nm. Is 635nm it's median wavelegth? Does it for instance product light in the 630nm and 640nm range? I am not in any way refering to the lumen output which is a useless measurement as far as plants are concerned.
Hey Fermentation...

Dude, I'm in a hurry, so I'll reply more appropiately later...

But yeah, when I contacted the company, the guy gave me the specs for their LEDs... and there's the central nm, and a "range" of wavelengths that the LED also produced... so you're right.

I'll write what happened with the custom setup later...

BTW: LOL!!!!
"Ferment... Now damnit!"
lol lol

[FERMENTATION]

This site doesn't list prices for their products and they wont answer price questions by phone on the weekend and no email contact :cursing:

http://storesense.neoverve.com/ledeffects/Categories.bok?category=Edgelight+1%2F2

They still seem to have awesome products though. The rigid LED edgelights in 1/2" width with 48 LED per foot looks nice (that one is not on the site but in their brochure.) They have 12/24 LED's per foot on the site still nice.

So far I haven't been able to put together a 2' x 4' panel (on paper) for less than $900. ($1300. without weeks of tedious soldering.) Let's see if these guys can do it for less.

I love this little guy :dance:

[sheist]

oooooh... then yea, it produces light in the 630-640nm range... out of the other parts of the spectrum, the 600s indicate the highest photosynthetic response.. the 635nm LED is RIGHT ON IT!!! so if u throw those bulbs on, u're doin a real good thing..

[sheist]

and also.. make sure u kno the nm range for the LEDs u purchase.. jus cus they're blue dont mean they'll give off the real 435nm.. better safe than sorry :)

[FERMENTATION]

On Monday I will see if they do custom wavelengths. You think 435 would be good. Okay, how far do you think the frequency drifts on one of those? I was thinking 650nm for the red. I don't know if they make them, I haven't been able to find any yet. I also haven't seen 435nm's. It would be nice if they have them in 5nm increments.

l8tr

[sheist]

take a look at my spectrum chart.. u have to consider these focal points, where the Photosynthetic curve meets with the rate of chlorophyl absorbtion, as opposed to the LED. 635nm is in the orange-red range of the spectrum.. The photosynthetic response curve is at its peak. This would be optimal for flowering because thats the stage where its photosynthetic response is at its highest.. the 470nm in the blue spectrum is optimal for the vegetative state, where its chloropyl absorption rate is at its peak, which is used to produce energy.. it'll need energy for flowering...

[ledgrower]

guys...
if anyone says nehting about lumens when it comes to led growing they have no idea what there talkin about and there likly full of bullshit. i can say for sure we have been selling led light bars for a year and have had " NO" customer complaints/ look in high times comin the next few months.were working with them to get a product review and grow report.

[ledgrower]

just thinking about this while I took a break... this all came to mind...And anther thing too.. The only company out there with an actual "patent " for grow technology is solarOasis . that is what I deal with. Its more to it then that then hooking up a bunch of Christmas lights led strings and setting them up and watching them grow..lol...your wasting your time. SolarOasis has spent 4 years in R&D in this field and they know more about this then anyone. ( hint*- there working with NASA for farming in space with there technology. They have the edge. They are a research and developing comany. And as the sulfer lights go...yea there great...one thing though....they produce 2 times the light from the SUN...yes Im not joking. Thereâ??s no way on earth anyone would be able to use that... in the time it would take to build a similar device, A) you would have arthritic in your hand from soldiering 1000's of points, 2) you still wouldnâ??t be sure of it actual will work and if u have the right light combination and you would be out of your time and money.3) lastly you couldnâ??t go anywhere with it cus there already a patent on the idea and wouldnâ??t get investors or couldnâ??t sell it.. Soo it wouldnt even be feasible., to combine the leds in any degree of the colors you need for plant producting would be crossing patent lines and you surly DO not want to go there.... Any comany that trys to make it would be doing the same thing,

As you can see. from the website http://www.ledgrowlights.com/...

all this site did is buy TRAFFIC LIGHTS I kid you not...look at them I again...looks familiar...???lol... now look at there website..there no patent cuz well there already is one for the traffic light and thatâ??s what they sell. by the way is a ridiculous price to pay saying my college was at surplus auction and ran into those and bought like about 25 for around less then 10$ a piece. Good luck to you all.. If I can be in any use let me know....


as in LEDs the advantage is very evendent... for one the thinness of the light.our lightbar is a few inches and needing noo reflectors saying just the hid bulb alone is the side of our intire package needing no ballast..since its already made into the bulb.... Picture leds being used for a "sea of green" opperation" were u could have 5 to 6 layers from where a HID could only have one or 2....think of the possiblitys???..there just about endless.... and temp build up..we thats a given....good luck

[FERMENTATION]

I was just wondering what the penetration depth of LED's is. The depth that the light can penetrate into the grow is still important with LED's if you want bud on more than just the growing tips where the light is.

[FERMENTATION]

Here is the link and text for the patent of the SolarOasis LED grow light. I think it answers my questions about depth of penetration. It is a very good read.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,921,182.WKU.&OS=PN/6,921,182&RS=PN/6,921,182


( 1 of 1 )
United States Patent 6,921,182
Anderson, Jr. , et al. July 26, 2005
Efficient LED lamp for enhancing commercial and home plant growth

Abstract

A first set of orange LEDs with a peak wavelength emission of about 612 nanometers, a second set of red light emitting LEDs with a peak wavelength of about 660 nanometers, and blue light LEDs. Two beam spreads, 15° and 30°, were provided for both the 660 nm LEDs and 612 nm LEDs. When directed perpendicularly upon tops of the plant leaves, 10% light transmission occurred through the leaves for the 30° LEDs, and 80% light transmission for the 15° LEDs. Thus, fully 50% of the orange/red spectrum primarily used for photosynthesis was transmitted through the upper leaf canopy, making it available to support photosynthesis in leaves below. LED lamps are positioned at varying distances from the growing plants for controlling plant growth rates that vary with these distances, thereby to control plant inventory, because growth of plants can be greatly slowed to preserve them during periods of slow sales.
Inventors: Anderson, Jr.; William Grant (Fallbrook, CA); Capen; Larry Stephen (Oceanside, CA)
Assignee: SolarOasis (Reno, NV)
Appl. No.: 437159
Filed: May 13, 2003

Current U.S. Class: 362/231; 362/230; 362/800; 362/805
Intern'l Class: F21V 009/00
Field of Search: 362/231,230,227,228,805,800,2 315/185.S,200.A,312,316,149,150,324
References Cited [Referenced By]
U.S. Patent Documents
4298869 Nov., 1981 Okuno.
4673865 Jun., 1987 DeLuca et al.
5012609 May., 1991 Ignatius et al.
5278432 Jan., 1994 Ignatius et al.
5660461 Aug., 1997 Ignatius et al.
6043893 Mar., 2000 Treiman et al.
6270244 Aug., 2001 Naum.
6371637 Apr., 2002 Atchinson et al.
6474838 Nov., 2002 Fang et al.
6486726 Nov., 2002 Worley, Sr. et al.
6504301 Jan., 2003 Lowery.
6602275 Aug., 2003 Sullivan.
6688759 Feb., 2004 Hadjimichael.
2004/0109302 Jun., 2004 Yoneda.

Primary Examiner: Vo; Tuyet Thi
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Burns; Ian F.
Claims


1. A lamp for facilitating plant growth comprising:

(a) a first set of orange light emitting diodes (LEDs) having a peak wavelength emission of about 612 nanometers (nm); and

(b) a second set of red light emitting diodes (LEDs) having a peak wavelength emission of about 660 nm.

2. The lamp of claim 1 wherein about half of th LEDs of the first and second set of LEDs have a beam spread angle of about thirty degrees and the remaining half of the LEDs of said first and second set of LEDs have a beam spread angle of about fifteen degrees.

3. The lamp of claim 1 wherein about half of the LEDs of said lamp have a given beam angle spread and the remaining half of the LEDs have a second beam angle spread of about double the first beam angle spread.

4. The lamp of claim 1 wherein said LEDs are arranged in serial strings of LEDs of mixed light emitting wavelengths.

5. The lamp of claim 1 wherein the total light output of th first set of LEDs is about half the total light output of the second set of LEDs.

6. The lamp of claim 5 wherein about half of th LEDs of th first and second set of LEDs have a beam spread angle of about thirty degrees and the remaining half of the LEDs of said first and second set of LEDs have a beam spread angle of about fifteen degrees.

7. The lamp of claim 5 wherein about half of th LEDs of said lamp have a given beam angle spread and the remaining half of the LEDs have a second beam angle spread of about double the first beam angle spread.

8. The lamp of claim 5 wherein said LEDs are arranged in serial strings of LEDs of mixed light emitting wavelengths.

9. The lamp of claim 1 including a third set of LEDs emitting blue light.

10. The lamp of claim 9 wherein about half of the LEDs of the first and second set of LEDs have a beam spread angle of about thirty degrees and the remaining half of the LEDs of said first and second set of LEDs have abeam spread angle of about fifteen degrees.

11. The lamp of claim 9 wherein about half of the LEDs of said lamp have a given beam angle spread and the remaining half of the LEDs have a second beam angle spread of about double the first beam angle spread.

12. The lamp of claim 9 wherein said LEDs are arranged in serial strings of LEDs of mixed light emitting wavelengths.

13. The lamp of claim 9 wherein the total light output of the third set of LEDs is about eight percent of the total light output of the LEDs of the first and second set of LEDs.

14. The lamp of claim 13 wherein about half of the LEDs of the first and second set of LEDs have a beam spread angle of about thirty degrees and the remaining half of the LEDs of said first and second set of LEDs have a beam spread angle of about fifteen degrees.

15. The lamp of claim 5 including a third set of LEDs emitting blue light.

16. The lamp of claim 15 wherein about half of the LEDs of the first and second set of LEDs have beam spread angle of about thirty degrees and the remaining half of LEDs of said first and second set of LEDs have a beam spread angle of about fifteen degrees.

17. The lamp of claim 15 wherein about half of the LEDs of said lamp have a given beam angle spread and the remaining half of LEDs have a second beam angle spread of about double the first beam angle spread.

18. The lamp of claim 15 wherein the total light output of the third set of LEDs is about eight percent of the total light output of the LEDs of the first and second set of LEDs.

19. The lamp of claim 18 wherein about half of the LEDs of the first and second set of LEDs have a beam spread angle of about thirty degrees and the remaining half of the LEDs of said first and second set of LEDs have a beam spread angle of about fifteen degrees.

20. A lamp for facilitating plant growth comprising:

(a) a lamp housing;

(b) a first set of orange light emitting diodes mounted in the housing and having a peak wavelength of about 612 nanometers;

(c) a second set of red light emitting diodes mounted in the housing and having a peak wavelength of about 660 nanometers; and

(d) a third set of blue light emitting diodes mounted in the housing and having a peak wavelength of about 465 nanometers, wherein the first, second and third sets of light emitting diodes in combination output light that stimulates plant growth.

21. The lamp of claim 20, wherein for every orange light emitting diode there are two red light emitting diodes.

22. The lamp of claim 20, wherein for every blue light emitting diode there are twelve red light emitting diodes.

23. The lamp of claim 20, wherein for every blue light emitting diode there are six orange light emitting diodes.

24. The lamp of claim 20, wherein the first set of orange light emitting diodes includes a first set of 30 degree beam angle light emitting diodes and a second set of 15 degree beam angle light emitting diodes.

25. The lamp of claim 20, wherein the second set of red light emitting diodes includes a first set of 30 degree beam angle light emitting diodes and a second set of 15 degree beam angle light emitting diodes.

26. The lamp of claim 20, wherein the third set of blue light emitting diodes have a 30 degree beam angle.

27. The lamp of claim 20, wherein the first set of orange light emitting diodes comprise 24 orange light emitting diodes, the second set of red light emitting diodes comprise 12 red light emitting diodes and the third set of blue light emitting diodes comprises 2 blue light emitting diodes.

28. The lamp of claim 20, wherein the first set of orange light emitting diodes promote the creation of carotenoids in plants.

29. A lamp for facilitating plant growth, the lamp adapted to be connected to a power source, the lamp comprising:

a plurality of strings of light emitting diodes, each string of light emitting diodes having alternating light emitting diodes chosen from the group consisting of:

(a) orange light emitting diodes having a peak wavelength around 612 nanometers and a beam angle of 30 degrees;

(b) orange light emitting diodes having a peak wavelength around 612 nanometers and a beam angle of 15 degrees;

(c) red light emitting diodes having a peak wavelength around 660 nanometers and a beam angle of 30 degrees;

(d) red light emitting diodes having a peak wavelength around 660 nanometers and a beam angle of 15 degrees; and

(e) blue light emitting diodes having a peak wavelength around 465 nanometers and a beam angle of 30 degrees.

30. The lamp of claim 29, wherein for every orange light emitting diode there are two red light emitting diodes.

31. The lamp of claim 29, wherein for every blue light emitting diode there are twelve red light emitting diodes.

32. The lamp of claim 29, wherein for every blue light emitting diode there are six orange light emitting diodes.

33. The lamp of claim 29, wherein the power source is 24 volts direct current.

34. A method of manufacturing a lamp comprising the steps of but, not necessarily in the order shown:

(a) providing a plurality of orange light emitting diodes having a peak wavelength of about 612 nanometers;

(b) providing a plurality of red light emitting diodes having a peak wavelength of about 660 nanometers;

(c) providing a plurality of blue light emitting diodes having a peak wavelength of about 465 nanometers; and

(d) mounting the orange, red and blue light emitting diodes into the lamp in a pre-determined combination.

35. The method of claim 34, wherein the light emitting diodes are mounted into a lamp housing.

36. The method of claim 34, further comprising placing the lamp adjacent a plant.

37. The method of claim 34, wherein the predetermined combination of light emitting diodes includes a ratio of 12 red to 6 orange to 1 blue light emitting diodes.

38. The method of claim 34, wherein the light emitting diodes have beam angles of either 15 or 30 degrees.

39. The method of claim 34, wherein the light emitting diodes are mounted in a predetermined orientation.

40. A lamp for facilitating plant growth comprising:

(a) orange light generating means for generating orange light having a wavelength of about 612 nanometers;

(b) red light generating means for generating red light having a wavelength of about 660 nanometers;

(c) blue light generating means for generating blue light having a wavelength of about 465 nanometers; and

(d) the orange, red and blue light generating means being adapted in combination to output light frequencies that stimulate plant growth.

41. The lamp of claim 40, wherein the lamp is selectively positioned from a plant in order to control the growth rate of the plant.
Description


BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

The present invention relates to the field of growing plants.

For decades scientists have delved ever deeper into the inner workings of plants, and particularly into those processes which are driven by the chemical capture of light energy. At the same time, research into new methods for converting electricity into light of particular wavelengths has led some engineers to try to produce artificial lighting which promotes plant growth. Until recently this has meant modifying energy inefficient "white light" sources to produce more light at wavelengths known to promote plant growth and health. This hybrid technology, in which the bulk of the light from these augmented "plant grow lights" can't be used efficiently by plants, has dominated the market for four decades.

While electricity was abundant and cheap, these "old school" plant grow lights, based mainly on HID, high pressure sodium, or fluorescent style lamps, were acceptable despite their imperfections. But they still have many shortcomings. They typically convert only 10-15% of electrical energy into light, and only a very small portion of that light can be used by plants. Some of them, particularly the HID lamps, emit short wavelength UV light which is damaging to both the plants being grown under them and the people tending the plants. All of these lamps generate waste heat which must be eliminated to prevent damage to the plants they illuminate, adding to their operational cost. They contain environmentally damaging metals, are fragile, and have a short operating life.

As electricity supplies fail to keep pace with demand, leading to ever higher prices, the need for more efficient plant growing lights increases. The latest generation of high output LEDs, with their narrow light output wavelengths, are a good choice for creating the next generation of plant grow lighting. Most LED plant grow lighting systems available today can only be used in a laboratory. The others, while claiming to be useful to commercial plant growers, are merely modifications of the laboratory-specific systems.

To our knowledge, no one has yet developed an efficient LED-based plant growing light that is amenable to both home lighting design and commercial plant production. By designing our LED lamp as a bulb, which can be used in industry standard lighting fixtures, we have created a product that has universal appeal and marketability. Our lamp can be manufactured inexpensively with readily available parts for both home and commercial use.

Its preferred power source is the subject of our copending utility patent application Ser. No. 10/397,763 filed Mar. 26, 2003 and entitled USE OF TRACK LIGHTING SWITCHING POWER SUPPLIES TO EFFICIENTLY DRIVE LED ARRAYS.

A key part of our research involved the determination of which light frequencies or wavelengths would produce superior plant growth results. Each plant pigment absorbs light at one or more specific wavelengths. The areas of peak absorption for each pigment are narrow, and the measurements made with pigments concentrated in a test tube are different than those done on living plants. The wavelength of the light used determines it's energy level, with shorter wavelengths having greater energy than longer wavelengths. Thus each absorption peak, measured by the wavelength of light at which it occurs, represents an energy threshold that must be overcome in order for the process to function.

There are many peaks of light absorption in the pigments found in plants, and ideally it would be best to match them each with the most appropriate LED. But this is not practicable because of the limited desired area available in the lamp being designed, and because LEDs are not available in every wavelength of the spectrum. The compromise is to see what LEDs are readily available and match them, as well as one is able, to groups of closely matched pigment absorption peaks, while striving to meet the minimum requirements of plants for healthy growth.

Our patent searches turned up U.S. Pat. Nos. 5,278,432 and 5,012,609, both issued to Ignatius et al., who suggest LED plant radiation very broadly within bands 620-680 or 700-760 nm (red) and 400-500 nm (blue). After a year and a half of research, we settled on three more specific light wavelengths that produced the best plant growth results.

660 nanometers (nm) is the wavelength that drives the engine of the photosynthetic process. The 680 nm wavelength is perhaps closer to the peak absorption wavelength of one of the two chlorophylls found in higher plants. However, at 680 nm you miss completely the absorption curve of the second chlorophyll, and furthermore the output curve of a 680 nm LED has a fair amount of light output above 700 nm, which is known to cause unwanted morphological changes to plants. LEDs of 680 nm output are also rare in the marketplace, making them relatively expensive. Our choice of a 660 nm first wavelength component is a compromise wavelength commonly used in plant growing research, which supplies energy to both types of chlorophyll without emitting enough light above 700 nm to adversely affect plant growth.

The 620 nm LEDs used in the aforesaid Ignatius et al. patents, are meant to provide the light energy for photosynthesis, but a look at the absorption spectrum for the two chlorophylls shows that this wavelength falls almost entirely outside the absorption curve for chlorophyll.

Our research showed better results using LEDs of 660 nm and 612 nm rather than the wavelengths of 620 nm and 680 nm. Beneficially, LEDs of 660 nm are also readily available in the market, and are very inexpensive.

Our second 612 nm wavelength component was selected not to promote photosynthesis, but to match one of the peaks of the carotenoids. As noted in "Influence of UV-B irradiation on the carotenoid content of Vitis vinifera tissues," C. C. Steel and M. Keller (http://bst.portlandpress.com/bst/028/0883/bst028883.htm), "carotenoid synthesis . . . is dependent upon the wavelength of visible light, and is diminished under yellow and red filters."

By providing the orange 612 nm light, we not only promote creation of carotenoids, which are required for plant health, but also add a little to photosynthesis, since the carotenoids pass their absorbed energy to chlorophyll. Carotenoids are required for plant health due to their ability to absorb destructive free radicals, both from solar damage and from chlorophyll production, whose precursors will damage plant tissue in the absence of the carotenoids. During research we found that, beneficially, test plants turned a deeper green, i.e. produced more chlorophyll, with the addition of our 612 nm light component. This ability to increase a plant's chlorophyll content with this specific light wavelength is an important aspect of our invention.

Blue light of about 465 nm, this wavelength being non-critical, is strongly absorbed by most of the plant pigments, but is preferably included as the third component in our lamp to support proper photomorphogenesis, or plant development. Any LED near this wavelength will work as well, but the 470 nm LEDs are commonly available and less expensive than many other blue LEDs.

Regarding the proper proportion for each wavelength, it is known, from independent laboratory research, that a blue/red proportion of 6-8% blue to red is optimal. In sunlight the blue/red light proportion is about 30%, but this is not required by plants. More than 8% blue light provides no additional benefit, but adds to the cost of the device since blue LEDs are among the most expensive to manufacture. In our device we include about 8% blue light, which is near optimal for plant development while offering the greatest cost savings. Our research showed that best results were obtained when the output of the 612 nm orange LEDs in our device was added to the output of the 660 nm red LEDs when calculating our most desired blue/red proportion.

Our lamp is intended to deliver a well mixed blend of all three of the wavelengths used to the plant it is illuminating. Other devices which are intended to grow plants with LEDs solve this problem by creating alternating rows of each wavelength of LED used, with each LED string being composed of LEDs of the same wavelength. In these other devices, though, the LEDs are arranged in a square or rectangular block, matching the shape of the device itself In our case, with a circular design, this is not the most effective way to align the LEDs.

To improve the manufacturability of our circular lamp, it proved better to use LED strings that mixed wavelength, i.e. instead of putting the 660 nm LEDs into their own strings, we use strings that contain both 660 nm and 612 nm LEDs, and in one string use all three wavelengths. Normally this isn't done because it offers a greater potential for having a "current hogging" LED alter the string's designed operating characteristics. Current hogs can be a problem even when all of the LEDs in a string are of the same wavelength and manufacture, but when the string is composed of a mixture of wavelengths the chances of having this problem are increased. LED strings of mixed wavelength are to be used when the supplied voltage and current is tightly controlled.

Regarding prior art found during our searches, the mounting and plug in of an LED array light module in a MR-16 or the like fixture is disclosed in Lys U.S. Pat. No. 6,340,868 in FIGS. 20 and 21. Lyes teaches the use of these LED array modules for accelerating plant growth; see FIGS. 92A and 92B. Lys also teaches in FIG. 22 the use of a 24 volt DC module for energizing three LED strings connected in parallel. Lowrey U.S. Pat. No. 6,504,301 discloses an MR-16 outline package for a mixed wavelength LED arrangement; other lighting packages such as MRC-11 etc. are mentioned in his specification col. 7. Okuno U.S. Pat. No. 4,298,869 discloses a conventional lamp screw in fixture for three parallel LED strings of two volt LEDs supplied by 19.5 volts. The concept of placing the LEDs very close to the plants as they generate little heat is taught in col. 1 of U.S. Pat. No. 6,474,838.

BRIEF SUMMARY OF PREFERRED EMBODIMENTS OF THE INVENTION

We finally found that the proportion of twelve red 660 nm LEDs plus six orange 612 nm LEDs and one blue 470 nm LED was optimal. Our preferred circular lamp can hold two of these optimal sets of LEDs, resulting in a device with twenty-four red 660 nm LEDs, twelve orange 612 nm LEDs, and two blue 470 nm LEDs. Also, we used mixed LED strings that contained both types of LEDs for enhanced wavelength mixing.

We used LEDs having two beam spreads of 15° and 30°, in equal proportions, for both the 660 nm LEDs and 612 nm LEDs. When directed perpendicular to the upper surface of mature cotton plant leaves, we found that a quantum light sensor placed below the leaf registered 10% light transmission for the 30° LEDs, and 80% light transmission for the 15° LED, and fully 50% of the orange/red spectrum primarily used for photosynthesis was transmitted through the upper leaf canopy, making it available to support photosynthesis in leaves below.

Another aspect of our invention results in control of plant growth rates by selectively positioning our LED lamps emitting blue light at varying distances from the growing plants for controlling plant growth rates that vary in proportion with these distances. By adjusting plant growth rates we can control inventory; if current sales are slow, we can inhibit growth rates to preserve the properly sized continuously illuminated plants over greater extended time periods for later sales.

BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE DRAWINGS

Other features and advantages of the invention will become more apparent upon study of the following detailed description taken in conjunction with the drawings in which:

FIG. 1 discloses four strings of diodes coupled to the power supply;

FIG. 2 discloses the diodes of FIG. 1 positioned within a circular lamp;

FIG. 2a discloses a table for use in understanding FIG. 2;

FIG. 3 discloses a graph showing a curve of the wavelength spectrum of the lamp output of our invention in its preferred embodiment;

FIG. 4 illustrates the mixed beam spread feature of the invention;

FIGS. 5a and 5b, 6, and 7a and 7b, show various aspects of controlling growth rates employed in connection with the invention.

DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF PREFERRED EMBODIMENTS OF THE INVENTION

# Five light wavelengths commonly known to match the absorption peaks of plant pigments were identified: 430 nm (blue, near ultraviolet), 450 nm-470 nm (blue), 570 nm (lime green), 610 nm (orange), and 660 nm (red). Our experimental efforts in turning theory into practice to select the best components, was anything but straightforward, and has taken the better part of a year to bring to its current level of development. Our final test results have allowed us to eliminate the 570 nm lime green LED. This left us with the following mix in our preferred embodiment: 12�660 nm (Red), 30° beam angle spread;
# 12�660 nm (Red), 15° beam angle spread;
# 6�612 nm (Orange), 30° beam angle spread;
# 6�612 nm (Orange), 15° beam angle spread; and
# 2�465 nm (Blue), 30° beam angle spread; all as shown in FIGS. 1, 2, and 2A.


We finally determined that the superior results we were seeing were not cause by the 570 nm green LEDs, and our results were substantially improved using the wavelength mix shown above. The number of variables we were testing made it difficult to isolate the exact effects caused by the different light wavelengths used, and it has only just become apparent that the 570 nm light wavelength was superfluous.

Research into plant growth using this final light frequency mix showed it gave superior results over our earlier research. The plants grown, particularly cotton and miniature roses, became dark green (i.e. generated large amounts of chlorophyll), had broad rather than narrow leaves, maintained healthy leaves in the understory of the leaf canopy, and had short leaf internodes, while growing vigorously.

The graph of FIG. 3 shows a solid line curve 20 of the wavelength distribution output of our invention in its preferred embodiment compared to the absorption spectrum curve 24 of chlorophyll A and absorption curve 22 of chlorophyll B 22, the wavelengths which most efficiently drive photosynthesis range between 600 nm and 700 nm, which closely matches the output peaks of our invention. Even though chlorophyll has its strongest absorption in the blue wavelengths, these wavelengths are very inefficient for driving the photosynthetic processes. The small amount of blue in our invention, is not used to drive the photosynthetic process, but is instead used to promote proper plant morphology. Thus, our final LED wavelength mix covers the absorption peaks for both chlorophyll A and chlorophyll B. The 465-470 nm LEDs also supply energy to the two chlorophylls, as well as the carotenoids, but inefficiently. The main purpose of the 465 nm light is to support photomorphology, promoting a short, compact growth pattern, broad leaves, and thick stems. The amount of blue light (460 nm to 470 nm) provided is optimally 6% to 8% of the provided amount of orange/red light within the 600 nm to 700 nm range. Sunlight is approximately 30% light in the blue portion of the spectrum, but it has been shown by university researchers that amounts higher than 8% provide no additional benefit.

As shown in FIG. 1, our preferred circular lamp embodiment contains thirty-eight LEDs, as follows: 12 narrow beam angle red LEDs labeled r, 12 wide beam angle red LEDs labeled r-, 6 narrow beam orange LEDs labeled o, 6 wide beam orange LEDs labeled o-, and 2 wide beam blue LEDs labeled b.

The circuit of FIG. 1 for driving the LEDs includes regulated 24 volt DC power source 10 that supplies three strings often LEDs, 12, 14, and 16, and one string of eight LEDs 18. Each string contains a mix of the LED wavelengths and beam spreads used in the invention, denoted 'r' for 15° beam spread 660 nm (narrow beam red), 'r-' for 30° beam spread 660 nm (wide beam red), 'o' for 15° beam spread 612 nm (narrow beam orange), 'o-' for 30° beam spread 612 nm (wide beam orange), and 'b' for 30° beam spread 465 nm (wide beam blue).

FIG. 2 schematically indicates a typical spatial distribution of the LEDs 13 of FIG. 1, as viewed looking into circular lamp 11 containing the LEDs. FIG. 2, along with the table of FIG. 2a, indicates the peak wavelengths and beam angles of light emission from the various LEDs in a typical arrangement for providing good mixing.

LEDs are manufactured to emit light with a particular viewing angle, or beam spread. Typically the narrower the beam spread the higher the light pressure or intensity produced, and vice versa. If the beam spread is too narrow, the light from adjacent LEDs may not overlap, leaving gaps in the illumination area. For a plant growing light this would not be appropriate. Conversely, if the beam spread is too wide, the illumination area will be too large, covering areas beyond the plant's leaf canopy, so a great deal of light will be wasted. We selected LEDs which would, in our preferred embodiment for general use, provide a circle of illumination approximately 10-12 inches wide at a distance of ten inches from the light source. Since our preferred embodiment is smaller than 3" in diameter, 100% illumination coverage of many size areas for commercial use and in the home is possible.

Growers employing artificial light sources for growing plants are cautioned to use fluorescent lighting only for seedlings, and to switch to High Intensity Discharge or High Pressure Sodium lamps after the plants are 12" to 18" tall. Fluorescent lighting is preferred because of its lower energy cost, but it has such a low light output that none of the light striking the upper leaf canopy can penetrate to the lower leaves, causing spindly growth. HID and UPS lights produce adequate light to penetrate a number of layers of leaf canopy, but at a much higher energy cost. The high temperature of HID and HPS lighting (the quartz envelope of the bulb exceeds temperatures of 1500° F.) is also more dangerous for the immature stems and leaves of seedlings.

Unlike conventional light bulbs, LEDs are manufactured to produce a directed beam of light, with a viewing angle, or beam spread, ranging from as little as 5° to over 120°. We have taken advantage of this characteristic of LEDs to produce a plant growing light source which combines low power consumption with the ability to penetrate the upper leaf canopy and provide adequate light to lower leaf levels.

As shown in FIG. 4, a wide beam LED 26 directs its light beam 28 onto the upper surface of a leaf 38. Measurements made at a point below the leaf 30 show only 10% of the light passes through the leaf to be available to the leaves below. A narrow beam LED 32 directs its light beam 34 onto the upper surface of leaf 38. In this case, measurements made at a point below the leaf at 36 show 80% of the light passes through the leaf to be available to the leaves below. When used in a 1:1 mix of wide to narrow beam LEDs, approximately 50% of the supplied light is available to the lower levels of the plant canopy. More specifically, we used two beam spreads, 15° and 30°, in equal proportions, for both the 660 nm LEDs and 612 nm LEDs. When directed perpendicular to the upper surface of mature cotton plant leaves, we found that a quantum light sensor placed below the leaf registered 10% light transmission for the 30° LEDs, and 80% light transmission for the 15° LEDs. Using our fully functional protoype described above, we found that fully 50% of the orange/red spectrum, primarily used for photosynthesis, was transmitted through the upper leaf canopy, making it available to support photosynthesis in leaves below.

These beam angles may vary somewhat depending on the distance of the plants from the lamps. For example, the lamp may be mounted upon the ceiling of a home and directed at a plant on a table. In this case the angles will be reduced from 30/15 degrees but the preferred ratio of beam angles of two to one will remain. Where the lamp is directly mounted upon an aquarium tank having plants therein for example, the beam spread angles could be increased rather than decreased.

At a distance of ten inches from a plant, the distance at which our tests were conducted, the lamp of FIGS. 1 and 2 produced a circle of light 10-12 inches in diameter. If a plant is placed below the lamp, only a part of the plant is within the circle of light and the rest of the plant is outside, the portions of the plant outside the light would be expected to grow taller and bend towards the light. As seen in our research, this undesired result did not happen with plants grown under our lamp. Instead, the portions of the plant outside the circle of light simply stopped growing but remained healthy. It appears that if a portion of a plant receives sufficient blue light at 470 nm, undesired stem elongation is inhibited for the entire plant. Our invention provides this effect, which can be useful in commercial plant growing applications where plants placed along the periphery of the illumined area may be only partially beneath the light. As long as a plant is at least partially illuminated by one of our lights it will remain healthy without showing the morphology typical of under-illuminated plants (strong phototropism and unwanted stem elongation).

FIG. 5A shows two potted plants growing under our lamp to illustrate this effect. At time A, a plant 40, which is completely within the illumination area 54 of the light 52, is the same size as another plant 42 which is only partially within the illumination area 54 of the light 52. In FIG. 5B, at time B, the first plant 40 has grown uniformly, while only the portion of the second plant 42 within the cone of light 54 from light 52 has grown. The portion of the second plant 42 outside the light 54, while unchanged, is still healthy. This effect can be shown over a period of several weeks.

Inventory Control by Adjusting Plant Growth Rate

It is known that the amount of 470 nm blue light reaching a plant affects its morphology, i.e. a low amount of 470 nm light produces longer stem internodes, while a larger amount of 470 nm light produces shorter stem internodes. It is also known that because LED lighting is much cooler than conventional plant lighting sources, an LED-based plant light can be placed much closer to a plant than a conventional plant light, with a resulting increase in light intensity falling on the plant's leaves. We found that plants tend to grow to within an inch or so of the light, slowing as they approach the lamp (i.e. the stem internode length continues to decrease as the light intensity increases when the plants grow closer to the light source), until they nearly stop growing when within an inch or so of the lights. This is an important feature of our invention for commercial plant growing operations, where plants which overgrow their pots can't be sold and are typically discarded. Thus, this feature of our invention would allow a commercial greenhouse to maintain their plants at their optimum size for an extended period simply by lowering the lights to a point near the tops of the plants.

FIG. 6 shows a potted plant 50 growing within the light cone 54 produced by our lamp 52. The lower internode 56 is much longer than the internode at the top of the plant 58, which is approximately two inches from our lamp 52. The amount of 470 nm light the plant is receiving at its tip 58 is at least seventy times more intense than what it receives at its base 60. The internodes then become so small the plant's height changes only very slowly over time.

As shown in FIG. 7-A, at time A, the light source 52 over the first plant 62 is lowered close to the plant, while the light source 52 over the second plant 60 is not. As shown in FIG. 7-B, at time B, which may be several weeks later, the first plant 62 shows little change in size, while the second plant 60 has grown considerably during the same time period. The difference is the greatly increased amount of 470 nm blue light reaching the first plant 62, which shortens the internode stem length, thus keeping it short. This feature will allow commercial plant growers to "hold" the size of plants, if necessary, until they can be shipped. Otherwise, they would overgrow their pots and be spoiled. The resulting inventory control is of course of great importance in running a plant growing business.

Thus, during an extended time period of typically several weeks, we selectively position our LED lamps having a substantial amount of blue light at varying distances from growing plants for controlling plant growth rates that vary with said distances. This takes advantage of the property of LEDs to remain cool so that they can be positioned close to the tops of the plants as described above.

Since variations of the foregoing may be apparent to the worker in the art, the scope of the invention is to be limited solely to the terms of the following claims and equivalents thereof.

[SmurfyBH]

Holly shit that was alot to read...

[sheist]

ledgrower..... after reading your post, i bring a new question.. CAN stop lights actually work??? and if they bought traffic lights how do you explain the blue?

[ledgrower]

ha...lol...yea that would work..you could just steal some traffic lights and run all reds...lol...and the blue...well they just came up with a led blue light to go with it...to match they dont make anything...we have everything made for us and by us .U could do that however,....theres things in that patent that ARNT in there that make these lights work through R and D testing . just like Any other product. u arnt goin to find out "exactly how they did it" thats a kept out of the way of the public for ex.. recipe for Dr pepper....plus that patent is for our original grow bar where now we offer the lgm3 300% which is the type u would want for bloom and *tomatos*. pat pending .. also are products are MADE in the USA and alot of the leds are made in the US or they are made in Japan...not China..

wow thats bad. i wouldnt take anything from china if it was nocking on my door and they were giving it to me...

[sheist]

who do you represent?

[sheist]

but i have seen blue leds for sale elsewhere.. i'm not questioning the patent, i'd care less of it, as long as my flowers bloom.. i was soo hyped up actually, on the fact that they sell LEDs in the specific spectral ranges.. but then i came to find out that there are specific lights do the same thing, cus its all about the spectrum.. but i do wanna try out LEDs tho, just gettin up the fundin first

[sheist]

now in theatre, on the spotlights they have color screens, to allow only one color light show... since the plant needs red sprectrum, can't we use a red color screen?? they're the same screens used in the 3-d disney movies that come out in the theatre wit the red n blue movie goggles.. they filter out all other colors that only red or blue comes out.. can't we do the same with the plants??



the way i see it.. say we have a fullspectrum cfl tube.. can't we use the screen over it to make sure only the desired color range is discharged??

[ledgrower]

yea... u can buy leds in just about any specific spectral ranges.. shit u can even buy leds from radio shack..Im represent the light bar by SolarOasis..im just getting into this market of the home Hobbiest although it is goin to have a bad image for the golbal market. i will just have to be descrit about it if you know what i mean. This product will soon will change the whole industry. look for a website soon pc... i need some sleep


for your question about screens...why would u do that...u have en idea how much a screen for a movie theatre would cost..how would u use it.. i mean... from a HSP bulb u dont see blue or red lights..or anyother color in that matter but the white..and in that light contains the spectrum that plants need..its just that is not eficient enough. over 75% of power goes to heat and some of those bulbs would have to be replaced every 3 to 4 months..with leds you can get the Exact spectoral light that is proven to let plants grow..

[FERMENTATION]

sheist: Would that actually convert all the wavelengths of light being emitted to the red part of the spectrum? I'm not so sure about that. I think what happens is that being a filter it only allows the red light to pass through, thus eliminating the rest of the spectrum emitted. Actually I am pretty sure that is how it works.

ledgrower: Can you tell me what the dimensions on the grow bar? I couldn't find that info anywhere on the site. Also, does the new grow bar have more led's or is there something else different about it? Would you mind posting the information contained in the pending Patent? The site is lacking in specifics about the products. It would be nice to see a specs page with for one thing growth comparisons between LED, HID, Flouro, and Sunlight (that would actually be pretty cool to see that up there.) The results vs Sunlight would blow the LED's away (as per some experiment I read recently sorry no link,) but the results vs. other types of lighting would do a lot to get indoor growers excited about using this new application for this technology. What is your position at SolarOasis?

As for not being able to figure out how it is done... I'm sure you know that ALL details of a process must be in the patent application. The point of the patent is to protect (for a period of years) the investment of the inventor so that he/she/it may recoup and profit from an idea while allowing for technological progress to occur. At the time of issuance of the patent the information on exactly how to reproduce the technology (sans design specifics which are usually covered by a trademark or design patent) become public knowledge and free to acquire. It is still illegal for the public to reproduce the technology until expiration of the patent but at that time all someone needs is the patent contents and suitable technical knowledge to duplicate the technology/ies.

Secret formulas are another issue not covered by patents as patents are public information. Secret formulas must be kept secret. As far as I know you can't patent a recipe anyway.


If anyone that have been reading this has any knowledge of cannabis specific wavelength responses it would be awesome to see them up here. I'm pretty sure that all the wavelengths mentioned so far while being usable with cannabis were tested on other plants. Since all plants have different specific requirements that information would be very useful to thouse seeking to implement this technology with the growth of cannabis (in spain :dance:f course.)

[ledgrower]

thats the whole point though...Secret formulas u wouldnt want to patent cuz well they wouldnt be sercret nemore..the new bar has just as many lights as the original but there just designed and built differently...

[sheist]

for your question about screens...why would u do that...u have en idea how much a screen for a movie theatre would cost..how would u use it.. i mean... from a HSP bulb u dont see blue or red lights..or anyother color in that matter but the white..and in that light contains the spectrum that plants need..its just that is not eficient enough. over 75% of power goes to heat and some of those bulbs would have to be replaced every 3 to 4 months..

the theatrical screens I was talkin about were the thin sheets of plastic they put in front of the spot light.. who said i'd have to pay? (already ran to a theatre backstage and grabbed a bunch) I don't have an idea on how much they cost but I'm guessin they're free 8-)

the reason for using the screen is the funding.. i'm not established yet to bang out a couple LED bulbs and all that.. my idea was to get the CFLs and screen the plants, instead of the bulbs, cus this way the heat is still evenly dispersed around the box, instead of concentrated at the fixture till the bulb blows.. put it over/around the plants and let the specific lights in..


I think what happens is that being a filter it only allows the red light to pass through, thus eliminating the rest of the spectrum emitted. Actually I am pretty sure that is how it works

THAT's wat i was trying to ask.. but I'm questioning the correlation between color screens and the spectrum, will i jus get red light? or will the wavelength be present with it??


If anyone that have been reading this has any knowledge of cannabis specific wavelength responses it would be awesome to see them up here. I'm pretty sure that all the wavelengths mentioned so far while being usable with cannabis were tested on other plants. Since all plants have different specific requirements that information would be very useful to thouse seeking to implement this technology with the growth of cannabis (in spain f course.)

For the production of chlorophyll, and an optimum photosynthetic reaction, light from the blue spectrum (445 nanometers), and light from the red spectrum (650 nanometers) is necessary. Blue light ensures optimal phototropism. Phototropism is the phenomenon which causes plants to grow towards the light, and to spread their leaves in such a way to receive the most light.

[ledgrower]

To be honest bud....i dont have a clue if putting a screen over a light changes the specrum....That like puting colored seranrap over a flashlight when i was a kid./;well il see what i can find out... pc

[ledgrower]

what kind of bulb were u thinkin of using?? hps...??

[sheist]

CFLs and maybe a HPS later..

[turtle420]

I found this earlier in the thread...

I've got in my grow notebook the following quote from a post:::
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
for good growing you need blue, red and deep red spectrum. for clorophile A you need 400-430nm of blue and 650-670 nm of red. for clorophile B you need 420-470 nm of blue and 620-650 nm of red.
peak absorbtions are at A: 425 and 660 nm, and at B: 450 and 630.
the power of spectrum should be stronger in red spectrum (arround 85-90%), others arround 5% of each. i did some test grows, but i only used 470 and 630 spectrum and the plants looked just fine. if you give them all the spectrum (for A and B type), they will grow even better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jesus guys! This thread has grown unbelievably! :) THAT'S GREAT!

I need to catch-up on all the posts, but everything looks super interesting. I need to read the super-post by LEDgrower... sounds very informative.


My thoughts on the LEDs:
Compared to HID's intensity/lumens, they suck... BUT, because their produced photons (light) are on a specific range (not all over the place), they're more efficient.

Now we've got to see if they're more, um, "better" for growing weed... ;)

Again, I trully want to give input and comments, but I haven't had a time to read everything... I'm running out the door today pretty early (sun still hiding), but later today I'll be here.

Peace, love and good chronic to all, ;)

-turtle420 :cool:
.

[ledgrower]

forgot toanswer the question on sizing.....those bars are about 22 inches long and 3.3 inchs wide and only being only a cuple of inchs thick...

[turtle420]

I was searching my files, and found this...

It's a time-lapse video of a LED grow... don't ask me where I got it... no idea... You might find it interesting. :)

Hope you enjoy,

-turtle420 :cool:
.

[ledgrower]

ha.. im telling ya man..its the future....but u see there those lights there are purple....think about it... what 2 colors make purple....red and blue primarys,, they just mixed the lights.... of the 2 colors..it would be interesting to see the spectrum of that light...s..thats why those work but there not even using the rit mixure for optumum growth... u still can add green soo the plant looks good..

[newactivist]

I believe the LED's would work for small closet growers but I still feel the sulphur lamp would be a better alternative for large scale growers.

LEO must be shitting themselves trying to figure out a way to detect these lights! LED's are the ultimate stealth light source, no doubt.

[ledgrower]

ha... thats rit..finnally some agrees with me... and with a 8 bar array system for leds.. you can project the same amout of light equivant to a 1000 hps setup on a 3 by 3 or 4 by 4...however sulphur lamps?? your out of your mine...lol..they produce like 2 times the light of the SUN...how would u use those...unless u were to hang that up from like 10000 feet in the air...lmao..look for my website coming out soon

www.ledgardening.com I have a temp page up but in the next week or soo illl have it up and running with full product/ reviews,actual testamonies, and press releases of the upcoming future of led in growing... takecare

[sheist]

that time lapse clip was from the nuturelite website.. however it can't necesarily be compared to the growth to a mary jane.


what 2 colors make purple....red and blue primarys,, they just mixed the lights.... of the 2 colors..it would be interesting to see the spectrum of that light

the way i see it, thats wrong.. u can't make the spectrum because you mix two colors.. purple has a specific spectrum, look at the scale.. THATs why the plant is growing so well.. there is another contingency on the scale that ppl neglect (even I had, before I saw it)... in addition to the blue, u should also add the purple spectrum LED to it, to get that extra push in there, u can see how well its performing on that plant without the blue..


u still can add green soo the plant looks good..

adding green is a waste of money.. its not as much of a potency factor as the others..


you can project the same amout of light equivant to a 1000 hps setup on a 3 by 3 or 4 by 4
with LEDs? no, u can't.. LEDs are based on spectral intensity, not illumination..

as for sulfur lamps.. how much heat output is given off??

[ledgrower]

saying that that 1000 watt hps is giving off 75 % heat and 25 % usable spectum as compared with a led setup where its giving 99.9% usable spectum yes u can..and also u wont burn the plants..

[sheist]

OOOOOOOOOOOh, yeaah yeah

[newactivist]

The sulphur lamps give off very little heat. NASA developed both the LED grow systems as well as the sulphur lamps so they could find indoor plant lights that give off little heat. It seems they have a problem in space losing heat inside the space craft once it's generated so they needed something more efficient than HID.

Either of them will grow cannabis no problem. There is a LED grow movie that I found but the director had just been arrested for creating it. I'm trying to get the company to post it on file transfer software so we could get it even though they obviously can't sell it any more. I saw some still shots from the movie though and they had some very definite fat ass buds. Will keep you posted.

The reason I believe sulphur lamps are better for large scale grows is that with all the extra PAR the difference in yield from one crop would make up for the cost of the light. Also, not having to compensate for the heat from the lamps would make up for a lot of savings as well, not to mention a better security profile.

Neither of the systems will burn your plants as they generate almost no heat. IMO, LED's would be for small scale closet growers and suphur lamps for commercial grows.

[newactivist]

By the way, the LED seller said it would take about $3500 to match PAR with a HID. I quote:

"Yes, they are AWESOME! However, to replace 1 1000 HPS, it takes 20 Red and
10 Blue Lights which translates to around $3500! WHEW! It is good to make
the one time investment, but not for the faint in the pocketbook."

End quote.

[sheist]

dependin on where u go for ur stuff, yeah it could be like that.. i say just get the bulbs and fuc the fixtures/ballasts.. waste of money, u can build that ur self and save a few..

[turtle420]

I'm still waiting for the sulphur lamp... and actual pictures of a cannabis plant being grown with LEDs.

That's what I'd like to see...

[newactivist]

Me too, turtle420. For me it's just an academic interest as I don't grow but I definitely will if it gets legalized for medical or recreation in my state. I will have some pics from a grow operation in Europe using the sulphur lamps in about 1 1/2 months so I will post them as I get them.

As for the LED grows, until I get that movie from a grow movie using LED's my hands are tied. However, NASA knew they worked and if their claims are false it's a massively detailed scam, to the point of improbability. I think they will grow cannabis just fine. The main question I have is potency. Cannabis plants produce resin to protect their leaves from UV rays and from drying out. Without that heat stress I'm just not sure if resin production would be as high. Just like weed grown outdoors is stronger because of the sun compared to indoor weed.

Interesting question but one I would not be able to answer.

[newactivist]

Turtle420, this is a link to the site that made a movie about growing cannabis with LED's. The producer got arrested and they will not release any copies but just the pic on the website says a lot.


http://www.americanmarijuana.org/

[ledgrower]

well that movie would talk alot about temps.. hps and heat producting lamps made the novice grower succeed in pretty good %'s b/c of the heat they created with the lights// with the use of leds there is little to no heat discharge to keep the plants warm soo u most provide a sutible eco system for proper growth... with the root temps beening off on a led setup your pretty much screwed as in possiblity of success..u still need a able inviroment..this can be solved with like a 20 $ heating pad if your area is not the warmest....

[ledgrower]

lets get a few things strait.... for that quote...


"Yes, they are AWESOME! However, to replace 1 1000 HPS, it takes 20 Red and
10 Blue Lights which translates to around $3500! WHEW! It is good to make
the one time investment, but not for the faint in the pocketbook."

End quote. """

thats a freakin rip off... i wouldnt touch that with a 30 foot pole....... and lets make it clear theres MORE then just one led system out there ( copy catts) ... deffinately soo when your comparing a product that has gone through 4 years of R and D by specialist and scienctist to come up with the most usable spectrum for plants and patent there findings to that of the guy saying that its going to take 3500$ worth of tracfic light leds (thats a crap load by the way...(over 30 little things dangling above you...).. to buy a similar set up.thats bs ( thats theres not ours) that shows how poorly it preforms or how much there ripping you off...with our systems an 8 bar aray puts out the equievent of 1000 watts hps...and that 8 bar aray the light is focused down to a 3 by 3 or 4 by 4 area..depending on distance away...( thats a whole lot of light for a small area) ....yea it cost a bit more money roughly 1500 or soo .....but the benifits out weigh the price...cool/ no noise operating, low electrical consumption ( less then 20$ a year) and 7 to 10 years of bulb life or 100,000 hours...can hsp beat that> good luck...

[eafin]

You just cant keep us all hanging?:confused:

[karmaxul]

I dont know if this helps but I have spoke with Phillips in the Neitherlands a few times and for balanced plant growth as different vitamins are produced and broken down at different wave lenghts, the proper spectrum consists of 5.3%red 36.3% blue, and 58.3%yellow light to get a proper average. Nanometers can be converted into Hz. I was working on a project to try and grow using acoustics a while back as Hz are the direct opposite of Nm. Say if the pure light of the visible spectrum of the rainbow starts at 375Nm and ends at 750Nm then 750Nm = 375Hz and 375Nm = 750Hz. It is all about the wavelenghts.
One love
c

[newactivist]

I know, ledgrower. There are other companies that sell LED grow systems for less. Believe me I'm not endorsing his products over anyone elses as I haven't done a cost comparison. It was the technology working that I am interested in.

I guess it doesn't matter who sells the LED's as long as they emit in the correct PAR spectrums. After that would come cost comparison and quality.

[oldsanclem]

Leds, 10 day month, free power, wind power, solar power. None of them have happened to save money with out Federal support
Free wind power cost $0.14 to produce, sells for $0.09 (The poor people pay the differance)
Solar is almost the same, But take like 15 years to break even on the polution to produce the cells.
Pot month is still 30 days long +-1.0003
Wind power and solar power as yet to make ONE Cent.
The new hybr, cars require gas to get to $10.00 a gallon for the SAVINGS ti take place. Also you must drive them 60,000 miles a year.
IN There life time they use up, more epa stuff than a standard car
Now Leds NASA has a unlimited budget to grow in space.
They use florsent panels ,,, flat florsent panels.
The sulfur lamp cost <$3200 and produces a little more than a 1400 watt bulb , but requires more power than a 1500 mh. After what 12 years its going to be comming out soon,(as of 1995)
Save time dig a hole in the back yard 6 ft deep and 1 ft wide and plant you Fairy god muther.
She is a whore and charges for her favors.

[ledgrower]

ahh w/e u say mr...lol....

[sheist]

lol yeah, wat he said..
w/e u say mr lol

[ledgrower]

Leds, 10 day month, free power, wind power, solar power. None of them have happened to save money with out Federal support
Free wind power cost $0.14 to produce, sells for $0.09 (The poor people pay the differance)
Solar is almost the same, But take like 15 years to break even on the polution to produce the cells.
Pot month is still 30 days long +-1.0003
Wind power and solar power as yet to make ONE Cent.
The new hybr, cars require gas to get to $10.00 a gallon for the SAVINGS ti take place. Also you must drive them 60,000 miles a year.
IN There life time they use up, more epa stuff than a standard car
Now Leds NASA has a unlimited budget to grow in space.
They use florsent panels ,,, flat florsent panels.
The sulfur lamp cost <$3200 and produces a little more than a 1400 watt bulb , but requires more power than a 1500 mh. After what 12 years its going to be comming out soon,(as of 1995)
Save time dig a hole in the back yard 6 ft deep and 1 ft wide and plant you Fairy god muther.
She is a whore and charges for her favors.



ha yea...i think hes in the wrong forum...

:what: :what: :confused: :what: :what: :confused: :what: :what: :confused: :what: :what: :confused: :what: :what: :confused:

[FERMENTATION]

I'm back :dance: oldsanclem is also not taking into account the full data available for those statistics but like you said wrong forum. So I'm designing my own LED system to take advantage of certain cannabis traits that current models available do not exploit. Also, wavelength is being tailored to cannabis. I have the preliminary schematics drawn up now. I need access to AutoCAD to do the final version though. Actually I have an older version I just need a PC to run it on. I don't think my silly box diagram is enough for manufacture.

Fermentnation ;)

[turtle420]

Sooooooo....

Anybody has any LED-grown plants yet?

[Garden Knowm]

yeah what turtle said. somebody DO IT!!!!!!

: )

[sheist]

Guess what.. I got 2 48-LED blue spectrum 470nm bulbs on the way :)

[FERMENTATION]

Way to go sheist :thumbsup:. Your going to need some reds to though. The only thing stopping me is a total lack of money. I have a good design, although it will probably have to be manufactured. When I do go ahead with this I will have my production schematics completed by the power of autoCAD.

Sheist: Do you know the specs for the individual bulbs? What is the degree of projection? Supposedly a 15º bulbs light will penetrate to lower parts of the plant much better than a 30º bulbs light since the beam is more focused.

When they show up take some pics of the bulbs and scan any relevant info that comes with them and post it here, please. I would really like to see all that.

What was the cost? Where did you get them?


FERMENT

[ledgrower]

yea i have seen some plants being grown with leds..the guy did a full 2 month grow diary... He was very amazed on how fast they grew and the THC formation. Although he did have a case of root rot but thats what from his own doing...still it worked very well.. Fermentation and sheist Pm for info regarding construction of a setup..Im only telling a few and you look like the peps that want to get this ball rolling...i just got off the phone with individual who practically told me everything how to do it. ialready know but this cleared a whole lot up... ( not mentioning names nor company)... spacing, the rit NM....total bulbs, setups and times... aight...im outa here...

[ledgrower]

ok guys heres a pic i snaged of a guy thats flowering under leds...take a look...

[turtle420]

Hey LEDGrower!

I like the Pot dog shot... I'm sure I'll do it in the future with one of my pups... ehhehehe....

As to the LED growing, please post all that you've gained... correct NM, spacing, etc...

This is very interesting.... to say the least.

[MonkeyRacket]

Yeah was that guy flowering under LEDs using the Solaroasis product?

[nimo]

Any good news on the LEDs?

[turtle420]

Man, I'm starting to think that LEDs are a goverment conspiracy...

Everyone always "blah blah blah" about LEDs... and no fucking plants grown with LEDs...

[MonkeyRacket]

Just wait a few weeks ;-)

[britewire]

LED CAUSES CANCER WHEN IN YOUR BODY!!!!


/enough bullshit..

I've read a test on hennepdesk.nl and it doesn't really bring anything extra to the table cause led's only look brighter cause of the frequency of the lightpulses. the biggest advantage is that you can choose your own colors and color spectrum by mixing all kinds of colored leds.

@ the end of the line it's not worth the investment. Maybe you should look out for plasma-lighting instead...

[PearlJamFan]

Why is everyone complaining about cost? I have been searching for about a week for some good LED's I could use to try a grow. I live in the SW and temps will seen be over 100 every day. I have my cabinet in an oustide shed and it has perfect temps 8 months of the year. During the summer months I have to run an AC unit to keep the cabinet cool. Add up the cost of electricity, and replacement HPS bulbs and LED's pay for themselves within a year.

Here is an order I just placed recently.
1,000 of KTL053AxI-T, 632nm, 7800mcd, 120 degree angle, $38.33/K
2,000 of KTL051AxI-U, 660nm, 5800mcd, 25 degree angle, $35.38/K x 2 $70.76
500 of KTL050BUCI, 464nm, 4000mcd, 30 degree, $116.54 for 500
Shipping by EMS, $30.00
Total $255.63

Before I did more research, I had picked up some 400nm Violet, and 470nm 10mm blue with 40000mcd 15 degree. I will also throw in some Green for the hell of it.


That's $.07303 per LED, sounds good to me. Or should I just get 3K of the 660's?

I know I still have to buy the breadbord or PCB to solder them. But a good 400w HPS is about $200-400. I will save more than $200-300 this summer alone if I can grow with these.

What do you feel about my spectrum.

Here is a link with others I have been talking to,
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=17956&page=4&pp=15

[PearlJamFan]

Damn 5 minute timeout!

Here is some more info on the LEDs.
KTL053AxI-T, 632nm, 7800mcd, 120 degree angle, http://www.kouhi.com/pdf/114KTL053.pdf
KTL051AxI-U, 660nm, 5800mcd, 25 degree angle, http://www.kouhi.com/pdf/114KTL053.pdf
KTL050BUCI, 464nm, 4000mcd, 30 degree, attached JPG

[ledgrower]

pearl..your goin to need some higher nm ranges for the 600s...email for further [email protected]///

[MonkeyRacket]

I got my new LED box finished today, it's fuckin awesome. I'll be moving the girls into their new home after their dark cycle is over. I should have some valid test results for you guys in the coming days/weeks. ;)

[MonkeyRacket]

...

[PearlJamFan]

MonkeyRacket,

Nice setup, can't wait to see how they come out.

BTW: For those building their own, here is a useful link I found.

http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz

[PearlJamFan]

pearl..your goin to need some higher nm ranges for the 600s...email for further [email protected]///


What about the blues? Are they ok?

[FERMENTATION]

PJF: Your angle pread is too wide on those LEDs. I think you should be using a narrower angle for most of those lights around 15º should be okay.

[turtle420]

...


Now I can say::: I love you.

Thanks for the pics.

[PearlJamFan]

PJF: Your angle pread is too wide on those LEDs. I think you should be using a narrower angle for most of those lights around 15º should be okay.

I was told that as long as the mcd rating is high at high angle, they are MORE powerful than a 15 angle.

Example.
660nm, 4000mcd 15 degree angle.
660nm, 4000mcd, 100 degree angle.

This means that I am still getting 4000mcd spread further across the plants. Not in that narrow angle, so in theory those light a more than 4x stronger.

[turtle420]

...
PearlJam kicks ass! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[latewood]

OK, I apologize...don't think I ever read this...still haven't, but I am going to. I breezed through 1st page and don't know where this is going...so, here goes.

Turtle...I want a bigass one with blue and red/full spectrum and I want a green one so I can go play in my room during the 'dark' photoperiod.

Once I read the thread, this request will probably be moot...
gotta go, bro, lw

[Curiosity]

I was told that as long as the mcd rating is high at high angle, they are MORE powerful than a 15 angle.

Example.
660nm, 4000mcd 15 degree angle.
660nm, 4000mcd, 100 degree angle.

This means that I am still getting 4000mcd spread further across the plants. Not in that narrow angle, so in theory those light a more than 4x stronger.

Lumens = Candelas*2pi*[1â??cos(theta)]
That makes it 0.85 vs. 29.5 lumens... about 30 times better.

[Moose101]

Are plants really that straight forward? I mean, do two kinds of frequencies cover all the plants needs for every single kind of plant?

[turtle420]

Are plants really that straight forward? I mean, do two kinds of frequencies cover all the plants needs for every single kind of plant?
Nope.

Cannabis plants.... we're experiementing.

Maybe they'll grow fine... :)

[Curiosity]

Good info in this artice I believe.
http://ncr101.montana.edu/Light1994Conf/5_11_Bula/Bula%20text.htm

All of it is interesting, but specifically scroll down to the "Pulsed Lighting" section. Basically, applied light was pulsed at about 6.7kHz, with duty cycles of 1%, 5%, 10%, and the constant 100%. They were all done with the same time-integrated photon flux (ie. the 1% had 100x higher intensity than the 100% one).

Result: for tomato plants, they all gave about the same photosynthetic response. So to match a constant-on LED source, you'd need to be able to drive the peak output 1/(duty cycle) times higher. Seems like one would be better off forgetting about pulsing, and overdriving their LED array as much as their thermal dissipation allows.

thoughts:
*might be different for cannabis vs. tomato leaves
*might get different results pulsing a broader range of wavelengths
*duty cycles might have greater effect if pulsed at lower frequencies. I didn't find anything about constant duty cycle over a range of frequencies, aside from:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5012609.html
"It has been experimentally demonstrated that when light flashes of 100 microseconds duration follow each other too quickly, the light is not fully utilized (B. Kok. 1956. Photosynthesis in flashing light. Biochim. et Biophys. Acta, 21:245-258.). Extending the time of the dark period to about 20 milliseconds increased the relative "yield" per flash of light."

I don't know why they used 100us pulses, but here they're suggesting about 0.5% duty cycle at 50Hz as being optimal, with no mention of light intensity affecting photosynthesis. If it's true that the plant sees this case as the same as DC (when both have equal peak outputs), then this would give lots of room to overdrive the LEDs for great gains. But if it still requires equal integrated outputs, then it's not really worth it (100x intensity requires much more than 100x current since relationship gets non-linear at currents ~>100mA, with baseline around 20mA). This is probably something that needs to be found out to get the most out of LEDs.

[knna]

The concept of pulsing light to maximize photosyntesis action is very interesting and promising, but all the studies ive seen performed about concluded that the grow rate is directly dependent of total irradiance. I think a lot of experiments are needed to find a correct pulsing cycle wich achive same growth with less total irradiance.

BTW, i think we miss the main cuestion when talking about growing with leds: whats the adecuate irradiance?
All the experiments ive seen of growing with leds was a bit disappointed at final results. Some parameter fails in order to achieve a correct bloomery. Maybe lacking of far red spectrum (730nm), wich is esential for long day flowering plants and of undetermined effect in short day flowering plants (lika cannabis) or maybe, and i think more probable, insuficient photons density.

For HPS spectrums, we know about 250-350 micromols of photons per second (uE) per sq meter is needed, and about 600-700 uE/m2 for good budding. The experiments ive seen dont double the flux density in bloomery stage, resulting in bad budding, although is enough for vegetative growth.

Comparing with the HPS spectrum and caracteristics, we can reduce the flux requeriments for growing with leds, in about a 25% by best absorbance (of red and blue part of spectrum against the yellow-orange dominated HPS spectrum), another cumulative 25% by higher photosyntesis action (depending of leds spectrum, from 15 to 35%, but not 300 or 400% like many comercial and interested leds applications say) and another 25% comparing with reflectored HID (more usual, and for that standard configuration i stated the 650uE/m2 goal), because leds are directionals, and dont need reflectors (and the light loss implied, about 25% average).

So, result in 0,75%^3=42% of HPS initial flux to achive similar results.

650uE/m2 *42%=275uE/m2

This works fine for red light, but blue light has less photosyntetic action, but is needed if we want a healthy growth, a minimun of 30uE/m2 of blue light, better 40uE. So, including this factor, about 300uE/m2 of led light seems an adecuate irradiance.

And how many watts of leds we need to achieve that irradiance?. It depends of leds efficency, the other issue ussually forgotten when talking about growing with leds.

There is a lot of misconception about this issue. Frecuently, i read that led light are the most efficient, and its a false statement. Probably it would be so in some years, but now, leds have a similar efficiency than halogens, very far of HID lights.

High watage HPS (600w or more) are about 38% (including ballast loses) efficients converting input power into PAR light.

Leds efficiency are very variable, but is very usual find devices with less than 10%, specially the cheap ones. If we go to the best leds, they are at 25% in blue and 30-35% in red, with good thermal design.

So its very important to know what flux emitts the leds we are going to use, in order to obtain conclusions. If we want to use less watts than growing with HPSs, is esential use high efficiency leds, at less 25% wall plug efficiency. I think too many people is missing this question.

[turtle420]

Curiosity, kNNa,

DAMN interesting info... I saved it to my computer... cause I have no time to read it now... I hope I can comment on it soon.

Very good to have some brainiacs running around...

[Moose101]

I seen the webpage at http://www.solaroasis.com/
Am I being dumb or wouldn't it make more sense to suspend the lighting from fixture that can be molded into any form so that you may have invidiual systems for each leaf?

[Moose101]

I'm a bit confused when you mention percentages. I think I'm missing something here. First of all, are we calling light a ray or a wave? Let me get this straight. Each bulb pulses a length of light in frequencies equal to that of the bulb type? That makes it a ray? The light is three dimentional right? Where is the width and height? If you are give a plant 90% red spectrum, what is the actual amount you are giving it?

[Moose101]

err, nm. I just realized how dumb that was. I just figured it out. It's a wave length, meaning it's a wave not a ray. The percentage is of the multiple bulbs? That still doesn't really answer it though. I mean if you had 500 bulbs and 90% were red that would be a solid amount. But that isn't something that scales well. I mean 5000 bulbs of 90% red would mean a lot more red.

[knna]

Led lighting is different to any previous kind of lighting, and if we want to maximize its advantages, we must change our way of thinking about light. Leds dont need to work in bulb shape, in fact, its a very bad idea because thermal considerations, especially important for red leds, wich are very temperature sensitive.

We can put the leds arrays very close to plants and between them, because leds dont give heat enough to damage plants and dont radiate IR and UV (if we dont want to). Using led's reflectored bulbs dont make any sense in horticultural applications. Leds bulbs useful life is below 15000h, because quick degradation due to heat.

Hanging leds strings between plants is the way to go, and use medium-low power leds well spaced, in the way there isnt need of cooling. In this way, the led's low intensity isnt a problem.

When I mention efficiency percentages, it refer at % of light emitted (in watts) of total input power (for horticultural applications, PAR light (400-700nm) is counted). Its very difficult compute leds efficiency, because it depends of ambient temperature, thermal resistance (and how dense are the leds packed) and at what current the led is runned, talking about the same led. And differences between leds are very, very large.

[ledgrower]

alrit guys im back...i have been on traveling for like a month or soo....as an update..the local hydro shop is doin testing of led grow bars ...solaroasais..the ones the guy has a box made from...

as of rit now..there showing great progress with the cloning...for example..cloneing rosimary in 5 days with 2 inch roots... this is pretty much unheard of....now there moving on to product testing of an 8 bar aray system that is being shined on over tomatoes and small potted herbs...

[Opie Yutts]

You can use anything for the veg stage, including LED's.

I have yet to see anything worthwile come out of flowering with anything other than HPS. The possible exception might be flouros, but a shitload of them instead of one.

Because I have not seen it does not mean that it can't happen (are triple negatives OK?). I have a feeling that you could equal the yield produced by one 600 watt bulb with several thousand LED's. I haven't done the math but there is a formula to figure this out. How much would this cost? Much more I am sure than 1 HPS bulb and the additional ventalation necessary. How long until the LED's would pay for themselves? The cost to power thousands of LED's - would that be similar to the cost to power one 600 watt bulb? And if it is less, how long until it pays for itself in electricity.

And do you have to replace them? HPS bulbs need replacing every year or so due to decrease in intensity. My guess is that LED's last much longer. I Think the real cost we are talking about is the electricity to power HPS and it's ventalation.

I am pulling for LED's. I hope some day they will be economically viable. Right now they are way too expensive for flowering.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

[ledgrower]

440s and 460s...lookin good monkey the best thing is , is that thats only burns 36 wats of power.... keep it up. u could also ad a small uv light in there if u have the space..that would give it even more of an edge to pick up some of the differnt spectrums that the leds dont have....even though they are shining the best ones plant uses...theres still some smaller ones that u could shine. a full spectrum bulb would cover all that..

[Opie Yutts]

The goal here is to use only LED's through flowering. Let's not add other lights. If we do, there's no way to tell for sure how well LED's work.

At least that's what I would like to see, but then it's your experiment. There has been many flowerings using LED's plus other lights. I have yet to see a flowering using only LED's. I think this is probably because you would have to buy thousands of them to get any kind of yield. Please prove me wrong.

[Moose101]

I was looking for a way to build one of these suckers. Found a nice website. http://www.superbrightleds.com/led_info.htm. Would be even better if there was a complete guide on here. One that would take the latest in LEDs into concideration. It's still something I don't understand. Think I might have to read up on electrical engineering just to understand this stuff. Worth a shot. Here are two other websites, http://ledmuseum.home.att.net/ledleft.htm, http://members.misty.com/don/ledx.html.

It seems easier to go rob the red traffic lights. But I don't wanna attract any unwanted attention. Me wonders if there would be any complications in removing them. Aside from the car crash every now and then. Calgary drivers are not so bright.

I would guess it's best to aim for the highest lumen count. Or does it not matter in LEDs? And whats with the 1 watt leds, would they be a better buy?

I think I might build myself red and white flashlights just to have around for camping an stuff. Red light might be good to have in gorilla growing.

[knna]

Opie Yutts: I agree with u, today isnt profitable substitute 600w HPS lamp for leds. Probably in 2-3 years.

But leds setups need far less ventilation than HPS ones, if u design the leds arrays in a way wich convection cooling will be enough. This mean not compacted arrays.

Where leds can be now a good choice is for microgrowers. CFLs and small HID lamps are a lot less efficient than 600w HPSs. Using 30% efficients leds at a reasonable price, wich can be found, in about 3-4 years they paid themselves in energy savings against a 250w or smaller HPSs (i did this calculation for my country, Spain, where we are thinking about a leds group buy).Good leds mounted correctly will have a useful life of 30000h, up to 60000h (not white ones, or led bulbs, or cheap 5mm leds)

Today the weak part of a led grow system is the blue part of the spectrum. Blue leds are still too inefficients and expensive. Valid for experimental purposes, but not for energy savings. Now, for small and microgrowers, the profitable way is combining fluo light (for blue and a bit of the others, ensuring no lackings of certain wavelenghts) and red leds.


I would guess it's best to aim for the highest lumen count. Or does it not matter in LEDs? And whats with the 1 watt leds, would they be a better buy?

I think I might build myself red and white flashlights just to have around for camping an stuff. Red light might be good to have in gorilla growing.]

When talking about leds, is a trade off between initial cost and energy savings.

High power leds are cheaper in terms of output mW/$ and in mounting cost, but they are less efficient than medium and low power ones. Lumileds Luxeon III (or the new K2) have a very good initial price, but they are too inefficients at specs currents, and you may need to use more led watts, with less energy savings. A good compromise is run them below specs current, increasing efficiency and ensuring no heat problems (for leds themselves, not for plants), and avoiding active cooling.

Probably the best relationship between initial cost/efficiency (energy savings) can be found in superflux (piranha) leds, runned at 50mA. And they can be founded in all wavelenghts, while high power leds are usually in the range of 630-635nm peak wavelenghts, valid but less effective than longer wl. In the near future, probably the high power leds achieve enough efficiency and good price to be the best option, but not today.

[Moose101]

Today the weak part of a led grow system is the blue part of the spectrum. Blue leds are still too inefficients and expensive.

Could have sworn I read somewhere that you need 7% of your total grow lights to be blue, anymore wouldn't do anything.

BTW, I haven't seen any experiments that match the wattage yet. Would be cool to see what 600 watts of led can do to a plant. Look at this experiment, http://www.ledgrowlights.com/university%20of%20minn%20study.PDF

Another question: would it make sense to put a larger viewing angle in the middle and then decrease it on the outside. Lets say I create a circular bulb. Use 45° in the center, 30° halfway between the center and outside, then switch to 15° on the outside.

[knna]

Could have sworn I read somewhere that you need 7% of your total grow lights to be blue, anymore wouldn't do anything.

Yes, ive seen some studies (none specifically about cannabis) wich concludes that a minimun of 6% of micromols of photons blues is enough for some plants species. And, in general, between 6% and 12%.

Other studies concludes that the blue requeriments are absolute, rather than a percentage of total. Usually, a minimun of 30uE of blue light per sq meter for healthy grow, and about 40uE for healthy growth with short internodal spaces (the difference between a generic 400wHPS lamp in one sq meter against an enhanced blue 400w HPS bulb; with the diference between leds and HPSs consisting in a HPS blue emision near 500nm, very less effective than a 450nm blue led).

The problem is only see the 6% figure. It refers to percentage of total micromols of photons per second (uE), not a emitted watt percentage. Blue photons carry a lot more energy than reds, so a 6% of uE means near 20% of emitted watts, and like blue leds are more inefficients, problably means near 35 or 40% of the total installed led watts.

Probably the way to go is having blue arrays wich emitts 40uE/m2, and go adding more and more red light as plants grow, anf forgot the % of blue light.

[knna]

Another question: would it make sense to put a larger viewing angle in the middle and then decrease it on the outside. Lets say I create a circular bulb. Use 45° in the center, 30° halfway between the center and outside, then switch to 15° on the outside.

I think is a good idea when using circular bulbs. But i prefer a different aproach, consisting in slim linear strips distributed along all the grow space, thinking in 3D, and seeking for a even flux distribution over the whole plant.

[Moose101]

That sounds like a better idea. But isn't there some kind of ineffiency in the wire and current if it gets too long? I'm no expert, heck I don't even know if I'm saying this right.

[Curiosity]

Resistive losses in the wire will be negligible unless you're stringing your arrays rediculously. If you manage to make it noticeable, all you'd have to do is slightly lower that chain's resistor's value.

[Opie Yutts]

knna: good info on specific numbers. This should be helpful to anyone who is serious about this.

[MystereMoi]

dunno if this has already been linked
http://www.ledgrowlights.com/index.htm
it could work - but I'm sure the fuckers would have to be VERY close to the plants - I'm all for it though
I love LED
ah...... the photon light raver days

[hahaitsdoogle]

dig this shit up.. so anyone trying this.. i only read the posts thru october :-p

[Moose101]

So fluorescent is better for blue light then? I still want my red leds though. Any suggestions on which brand of fluorescent to get? I think I can pick up a few red traffic lights from somewhere.

[knna]

So fluorescent is better for blue light then? I still want my red leds though. Any suggestions on which brand of fluorescent to get? I think I can pick up a few red traffic lights from somewhere.

Yes, at actual led's state of art, blue light from floros are cheaper and more efficient.

Any high color temp (K) triphosphor is valid. 6000-6500K works fine. You can choose a actinic tube, too, but they are expensive. Any brand is useful, but i like Phillips 865 floro tubes especially: long life and very good spectrum (high peak at 440nm, good emision in all the blue range and a red emision about 15nm longer than others brand spectrums).

[knna]

BTW, im in contact with some leds manufactures. One offer me manufacture a high power (1W) led running at 660nm and with a 30% optical efficiency. I compute they equal near 2w of a 600w HPS (and near 3w of lower watts HPS and CFLs).

But they ask me an advanced payment and a large order. Too much for just me, but id consider it if other people are interested in some. People interested, please PM me.

I must compute definitive cost (customs, freight charge, etc), but the price would be about 2,5-3â?¬/W.

[turtle420]

^^^

Tell them, to build you a prototype.

If all goes well, you'll buy in bulk.

Advanced payment?
Nope. 1/3 payment when half is done.
1/3 payment when the unit is received.
1/3 payment when you're satisfied with the prototype.

Trust me man... I do wierd international business regulary... you're going to get fucked up the ass if you send them advanced payment.

As to a large order... hahaha!

Dude, they're trying to offload their surplus on you.
Also tell them to "fuck you". No large orders... prototype first.

What you going to do with shitloads of badly design bulbs? When they have your money?

Be smart man... be smart.

INTERESTIN! :D

[knna]

Thanks a lot for your reply, Turtle420.

Im actually aware of this kind of suppliers. Im trying to comfirm its experience and reputation before any advanced payment.

I asked for samples before, and they agree. And a initial order of some hundreds, and they agree too.

They ask 30% in advance T/T, and rest before shipping. I agree with 30% in advance, but demand and escrow service for the 70% left. They agree. Im seeking for a preship inspection, too.

But im very concerned about a fraud. So any advise are welcome. What else can i do? (you can answer by PM, to keep clear the thread)

Thank you very much, Turtle

[turtle420]

I asked for samples before, and they agree. And a initial order of some hundreds, and they agree too.
Hey dude... when you says "hundreds"... for surely you must mean "hundreds of LED bulbs..."... right?

Not "hundreds of LED bulb assemblies"?

If it's individual LEDs... that sounds... 'bout good.
Assembled...? Nah... can't be assembled.

Hey man, Kudos for getting them to accept the 70% escrow.

I don't want to bitch, but it's been my experience that money will make people do son-of-a-bitch things.

As to the escrow... you might want to try GetAFreelancer.com... they've got an escrow service... problem is, they'll get a X percent of the project cost... and you'll have to disclose what you're doing on the Freelancer.... and you don't want to tie your real name/address to cannabis stuff....

Nothing... I'm sure a google search would come up with various escrow services.

Keep us updated man... sounds good. :)

[knna]

I refer to some hundreds of leds alone (mounted in a star, like luxeons). For me, this is my best goal achieved in the negociation. But, at same time, it did all my fraud alarms sound. All manufactures i contacted previously demand at least 10000MOQ. This one, only demands higher price for lower cuantity, but not a minimun order.

I think its rare, start a line production dont worth for so small cuantity. They say the arent producing the product currently, but made it with an 30% advanced payment, but at same time they said they can send me the samples in 10 days. All this seems very suspicious to me. But if i receive the samples and they are ok, the order still be of a cuantity (600-700USD) that may hurt, but dont do me a poor man. In the other hand, when i request escrow payment, they dont say not, but ignore the question, without any question. Knowing chinese suppliers, im afraid when time to contract, they will put objections.

My other concern is they will not be capable of doing the leds as they say that can do it. I must test the samples carefully, but i only have the equipment for electrical parameter testing, not for optical testing. Hire a spectroradiometer must be expensive, but if the leds have the perfomance they say, it worth the cost.

First, im asking for deep technical details. If it satisfies me, probably ill asume the risk. But im going to do all step by step, i havent any hurry at all. I think it may be a good deal, but i dont believe it until i have the leds working as offered.

Ill keep you informed.

[turtle420]

If they're ignoring a question, send them an eMail with just that question. Nothing more.

Man, I'm happy that you're going for this... really!

But keep your eyes open man... $600 over in that part of the world will buy you a lot of cheap beer and costly women.

The 10 day delivery sounds good.

But as you say... some optical equipment is needed to test the LEDs... to make sure they're pumping out the correct spectrums.

Hmmm... dude!!! I'm going to search my college books. I've got this instrument, cheap, in the back of my head.... It's for measuring wavelengths.

You point it at the light source, look through the peep-hole (like a kaleidoscope [?])... then, what you see inside, is a big nm-wavelength chart. Then, the wavelengths that are present, "illuminate" on the correct portions...

Damn it man... I'm usually very good remembering technical stuff... I can't remember the name... ermmm.... I'll check it out today... I hope I can post tomorrow.

When I say cheap, it might cost, you know, $40, $50 or $60... so it isn't that cheap... but better than costly-ass electronic equipment...

DARN IT! I can't remember!

I NEED WEED!!!

I HAVEN'T SMOKED IN OVER A WEEK!!!!

Best to you man, :) and godspeed ahead...

-turtle420 :cool:
.

[Aaron385]

I am making an attempt to feminize with 7500k led Bulbs, I read somewhere that excess light in this spectrum is a sure win for feminizing. I also have 6500k CFLs going. Will let you all know if it works.

[knna]

I think that a bluish spectrum can slighty help to feminize, but only for plants not totally defined genetically. Help slighty agaings hermies development, but genetic has more effect than nothing else.

Using blue leds would be better for your purpose.

[Aaron385]

Well I am running a ton of lumens in the 6500k range and adding in 7500k with 60 super brite leds (yea.. ones from superbriteled.com).. Im killing two birds with one stone as well.. as I have it in the 24/0 room burning it 24/7/365 so I can see for real what LED life is like.. I am also insuring they can stand up to the high humidity and constant duty cycle of grow room use.

I think the future of led's for growing purposes lie in two key places.. one being the strings of LEDs that you can buy on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/LED-String-Lights-RED-Battery-AC-Operated_W0QQitemZ4468735173QQcategoryZ3201QQssPag eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

because people are not thinking outside of the box on this.. why put led's in a fixture like a light bulb?? Thats not productive.. get these strings and hang them from a movable fixture hanging above the crop and just raise the strings between all the plants as they grow. Walla! Make sure you integrate (or alternate) various patterns of different watelength LEDs to achive desired spectrum intensities.

The second thing required will be the availablility of these strings in the spectrums we need without people doing it on purpose.. case in point being CFLs got really popular when you could go to wallmart and find one that operated at 6500k for $5.. and walmart didnt order that light for you to grow plants with..

I hope by the time my HPS system degrades to the point it needs replacing that I will be able to find LED strings like the ones listed above in the RIGHT spectrums for MJ growing.. because if I can.. I mean this guy is selling them for $6.67 (incl shipping) per 6 foot string of 12 1w lights.. 12w per string.. get 100 strings of these and for $667 you have more than a HPS 1000W worth of light, targeted exactly to the spectrums you want, with little heat, and the ability to basically touch the lights to the plants!

The limiting factor now is if those LEDs are in a spectrum that we like?? Its worth a little Q&A to find out..

MonkeyRacket- how is the grow going???

[oldsanclem]

http://www.geeks.com look for led bulb 120v This is a simple way just screw in. I'm not suggesting to use one but it would solve a lot of problems.
If led worked some ONE would come out with data, thats all I have seen data, ON the leds,(angs, freq,Kelvin, pulse with,over drive, etc) nothing on the production of Pot/tomatoes. I wonder why the cashcroppers still use the 30 year old systems.
Only fly to the sun at night, its much safer. :dance: :thumbsup:
ohms, ohms , ohms O god I see delight zap.
If mites fly into a bug zapper will it make ozone.
Is a pussyfour, one less than 5.
Enjoy growing grams/watts/months just the facts.

[Aaron385]

Nasa has produced good results.. on lettuce. Ive read many people starting grows LED but i never see if they finished?? Anyone heard of sulfur microwave bulbs??

[oldsanclem]

The last panels for grow labs, are florsent flat panels, with harvest of wheat and other grasses.
At $10,000 per liftoff weight cost, leds did not make it.
The sulfer bulb, is just like wind, solar power, only the goverment can efford it.
The sulfer microwave system requires light pipes to manage it. 1400 watts in 1000 watts out, last price I have seen is about $3,400, plus light pipes. a 30 year old ballast is much more efficent.
A few things to think about 1915 electric car went 80 miles on a charge a 2005 goes 80 miles on a charge. A 1940 Crosley got 50-60 mpg a new Toyota gets 50-60. just the higher cost of snow jobs.
The major differance is gas back then was .08 per gallon, and the break even point for the Toyota is a little over $10.00 per gallon. Today people are much richer they pay between 4-10 bucks a gallon for drinking water.
If N.A.S.A. can not efford them how can a pot growers do it.
Karma,Vodo,Hodo, Watts=watts,,, BTU=BTU,,, My fairy god muther is a whore and she charges for favors. :rasta: :twocents:
I must give everyone credit for trying, Put you B.S. M.S. Phd in elec. engeering to help N.A.S.A. :thumbsup:

[graymatter]

I don't know much about indoor growing but I learned some things when researching LEDs:

Heat sucks
Light is good
Light is expensive
LED's cost more but operate more efficiently.
I have no idea if LED's produce great bud.

[Aaron385]

well i wouldnt write off sulfur microwave yet.. the new bulbs are shielded (dont give off any detectable waves.. even if they did it would just be like a microwave being on in the room.

The price is down too.. only about a cool grand.. and imagine if they can do for them what CFL's have done for flouros... could be putting out 100 lumens per watt at a higher PUR rating than HPS with no heat and no light degredation over the 50,000 (estimated) hr life of the bulb.

I mean.. pretty good specs and the price is only about twice what a good HPS setup costs.. It is supposed to be better in the watts to lumens ratio than it use to be and I think it may have potential in our hobby.

Also.. maybe we can make them?? Its a pretty simple design.. a magnetron (microwave generator like in your microwave) blasts its beams thru a ball filled with sulfur gas.. not too technical.. but im sure there is a little more to it.

[PearlJamFan]

Ok what I have now is 80 Red in series of 5 with 3 660nm and 2 630nm per series, I also have 3 blue per series, then alternate them 400, 432, 400,432. So for each breadbord I have 80 Red with 68ohm resistor per series and 15 blue w/ 68ohm resistor per series . Each breadboard put's out 7.7w of red, and 1.2w of blue.

Here is the power breakdown.

Red per breadboard:
* each 68 ohm resistor dissipates 27.2 mW
* the wizard thinks 1/4W resistors are fine for your application Help
* together, all resistors dissipate 870.4 mW
* together, the diodes dissipate 6880 mW
* total power dissipated by the array is 7750.4 mW
* the array draws current of 640 mA from the source.

Blue per breadboard:
* each 68 ohm resistor dissipates 27.2 mW
* the wizard thinks 1/4W resistors are fine for your application Help
* together, all resistors dissipate 136 mW
* together, the diodes dissipate 1080 mW
* total power dissipated by the array is 1216 mW
* the array draws current of 100 mA from the source.

Total for project:

Red total: 480 red, 288 @ 660nm, 192 @ 632nm
* each 68 ohm resistor dissipates 27.2 mW
* the wizard thinks 1/4W resistors are fine for your application Help
* together, all resistors dissipate 2611.2 mW
* together, the diodes dissipate 20640 mW
* total power dissipated by the array is 23251.2 mW
* the array draws current of 1920 mA from the source.

Blue total: 90 blue, 45 @ 470nm, 45 @ 400nm
* each 68 ohm resistor dissipates 27.2 mW
* the wizard thinks 1/4W resistors are fine for your application Help
* together, all resistors dissipate 816 mW
* together, the diodes dissipate 6480 mW
* total power dissipated by the array is 7296 mW
* the array draws current of 600 mA from the source.

23251.2 mw x 7296mw = 30w of LED power, should be equal to a 250-350w HPS?

[PearlJamFan]

take a look

[sheist]

shit looks damn impressive..

here's my input, in after lyk 5 months of silence lol

www.spectrumled.com.. ..flood lights.. 60LED bulbs, screw into a standard light socket..

jus orderd a few reds... 800w CFL, 2kW mh (nOt set up yet) for veg.. the red LEDs for flower...

[sheist]

any updates anybody?? who's doin it?

[Aaron385]

yea LED'ers.. I want to know how its been growin with you pimps that put your fundage on the line for this experiment. I respect you guys for this and I have been doing my part to try new things as well.

[ronjohn420]

oh thank god i found this fourm, ive been studing these lights for some time and they are a very very good investment (also very very expensive) these lights use a avg. of 2watt and are a perfect spectrum of light....

instead if typing all this again, check out the link to my group @ myspace

here is the thread (if youre not logged in this may not work)
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=18715040&groupID=103043556&adTopicID=23&Mytoken=113BE400-E273-EDD9-53EFDD614B03BF8027269597

if not... then click below and look at the forum post called : L.E.D. lights against HPS and MH (you'd be surprised)

http://groups.myspace.com/904stonerbrigate

[Aaron385]

my question is will they get plants to go into fruit (or bud) production and sustain the levels of energy supply required to produce fruit (or buds) to their potential.. Nasa grew lettuce which can be done with the weakest of floros so Im not convinced.. I have found floros just dont even come close to delevering photons at the energy level or intensity (not nm.. we all know they can beat in nm) required to force flower or bud out plants. I may however concider using them for VEG since they definatly seem to have potential there.

[oldsanclem]

seedbare
So one, to lets say 6 leds
red, orange, blue, green, ir. uv. or any combination there of, will provide enough light for each plant, or is it a whole room.
I have a fert thats in pill form, it weighs 5 pounds each. Its simple to use, just pill in 100 gallons.
If joke goes over you head ,,,stand up.
After 5 months no one has data on what the Grams/watts/month data.
The old Pie in the sky thing.

[Jiminy]

I'm betting the LED's wont produce enough lumens or a varied enough spectrum for the plants to grow. Remember the sun is the best source of light, and going into LED technology is moving very far from the perfect light source.

Noble Idea, but in everything I've learned about growing plants is the light intensity is very important as well as a nicely spread spectrum. It is known the Low Pressure Sodium is a very efficient intense light, but its narrow yellow spectrum makes it as efficient as growing with an incandescent.

I still hope it works, but I have my doubts.

[Tokudai]

Welp this thread is 10 months old. Lots of input and salestalk being echoed, several people and projects are going - but does anyone have any decent output worth mentioning from these LED experiments?

[oldsanclem]

Tukudia Ever notice that no one put the real data in
Grams per /watt per/month. :thumbsup:
With 10 months of input no data, But lots of freq, ang, etc. , but nothing about data of the plant output. :mad:
If it worked reguardles of cost cash croppers would have in a heart beat. l:dance: :dance: :dance:

[PearlJamFan]

I am just finishing my arrays and will start from seed around 09/01. I will start a diary and let everyone kow how it goes.

Be aware, if things to start to fall apart, I may supplement with a 400hps, just to save my crop.

[Dr Ganj]

I'll wager these LED's just don't put out the right spectral output to ripen big, meaty Afghani buds like 1000 watt Hortilux bulbs currently do. I'll also bet they just don't penetrate deeply enough to make tight buds on the entire plant. Sure, lettuce is easy, but we're not here for that, now are we?
A few years back, I was really anticipatory over a new bright light using microwave technology. It is called the Sulfur Lamp. I really thought this was going to work, and today I came across this article:
http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/July00/KSC11970.html
So who knows, maybe in the near future we'll have a new type of growlight that will grow even more amazing buds than we already have using our HID's!

[Green Love]

i wouldn't use em, they can maintain a lifecycle of 4 or 5 nodes, but after that. Theirs not enough, heat/light that is produced to run the rest throught its flowering stage.

[Wh173]

I want show you my lamp :D

https://grower.cz/home/potw.php?s=&action=show&photoid=115602

[Wh173]

and my gallery on this server :D
http://gallery.cannabis.com/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=55374

[phytokind]

Crap thos're some funky lights. Are they like big LEDs or something?

[phytokind]

I am just finishing my arrays and will start from seed around 09/01. I will start a diary and let everyone kow how it goes.

Be aware, if things to start to fall apart, I may supplement with a 400hps, just to save my crop.

Word from the wise, DO NOT start seedlings with LEDs, start under CFLs for the first week to prevent stretching, THEN switch to LEDs.

[Skeebo]

Hmm... I'm wondering if I should start a new thread or just put this here? Here seems to be a good a place as any.

I would like to hear from those who are growing with or assembling LED grows and lights about the following information:

What strength MDC LEDs are you using?
How many volts/amps (or milliamps) does your system require or use?
Water clear or coloured LEDs?
How many LEDs and how do you have them set up?
Ratio of blue to red LEDs (if any)
Any other experiences or experiments that you have done.

That being said, on with my own experiments.

Inspired by this thread and science, two weeks ago I purchaced a handful of 5000mcd red LEDs and a couple 5000mcd blue LEDs. I pulled out some breadboard, resistors and soldering iron. After 2 good reminders on how hot a soldering iron can get I had completed my experimental module.

22 red LEDs and 3 blue LEDs made up my module (I stuck to the 10:1 ratio of red:blue LEDs, as you can see, my math sucks LOL!). Totalling 125000mcd of power. This tiny monster drew an astounding 250ma at 12 volts for a total power consumption of 3 watts.

I had a leftover, unused vegbox which I quickly stripped down and installed my new light. One of my favourite test subjects was then introduced. Cat grass. What a great experimental tool. Cheap. Easy to grow. My cats love it too!

The cat grass was placed in the box and subjected to no other light and within 6 days I had a healthy viable pot of cat grass. The cats approved and chewed away on it. I am impressed. Now onto phase 2, larger light with more LEDs and more experimenting.

While wandering through my local electronics store I stumbled across a dream. I found a 60000mcd water clear red LED. Yes, sixty thousand is correct! Qiuck math (which apparently in my head is not always accurate) shocked me to find out that my entire phase one grow light could be replaced by just over 2 LEDs. I just about fell over.

The downside. These puppies are expensive. $2.25 each with tax. My 100 light set up with the 5000mcd LEDs was going to cost me under $25. 500000mcd. Nine 60000mcd LEDs would give me 540000mcd at $20.25, just for the LEDs.

So now I ponder and design with my money and math.

And now for something completely different:

I would love to see this thread edited. It takes far too long to go through the "You can't grow with LEDs" "LEDs will never compare to HID lighting" to get to the information you need.

Now an exercise in futility.

As consideration to those of us that are experimenting with LEDs and are benifitting from the open exchange of information, is it possible for the narrow or close minded posters to keep their thoughts to themselves and not fill up the tread with crap?

Everyday I walk down the street and see stupid people. I resist the tempatation to tell them that they are stupid. I smile to myself and keep my mouth shut. I'm just asking the non-believers to smile.

When we have something good we will post it.

[Wh173]

okay,


What strength MDC LEDs are you using?

I using LEDs:
RED 500mcd / 110° / 660nm
Blue 1400mcd / 60° / 470
I thing priority is degree of led biggest is better(minimum is 30 - 60°) 1500mcd/60° is same like 500mcd/110°. But 500mcd is cheaper.


How many volts/amps (or milliamps) does your system require or use?

about 20mA on 1,75V each LED


Water clear or coloured LEDs?

it's same


How many LEDs and how do you have them set up?

My system have 720pcs of red and 56pcs of blue LEDs, now. I want 3 times more
I can buy 2000pcs of red for 100USD :D


Ratio of blue to red LEDs (if any)

I thing best is from 16:1 to 8:1, maybe more.

Mini LED box by Hogi - its in czech, but nice photos :D - https://grower.cz/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20274&perpage=16&pagenumber=10

[evan1]

Hmm... I'm wondering if I should start a new thread or just put this here? Here seems to be a good a place as any.

I would like to hear from those who are growing with or assembling LED grows and lights about the following information:

What strength MDC LEDs are you using?
How many volts/amps (or milliamps) does your system require or use?
Water clear or coloured LEDs?
How many LEDs and how do you have them set up?
Ratio of blue to red LEDs (if any)
Any other experiences or experiments that you have done.

That being said, on with my own experiments.

Inspired by this thread and science, two weeks ago I purchaced a handful of 5000mcd red LEDs and a couple 5000mcd blue LEDs. I pulled out some breadboard, resistors and soldering iron. After 2 good reminders on how hot a soldering iron can get I had completed my experimental module.

22 red LEDs and 3 blue LEDs made up my module (I stuck to the 10:1 ratio of red:blue LEDs, as you can see, my math sucks LOL!). Totalling 125000mcd of power. This tiny monster drew an astounding 250ma at 12 volts for a total power consumption of 3 watts.

I had a leftover, unused vegbox which I quickly stripped down and installed my new light. One of my favourite test subjects was then introduced. Cat grass. What a great experimental tool. Cheap. Easy to grow. My cats love it too!

The cat grass was placed in the box and subjected to no other light and within 6 days I had a healthy viable pot of cat grass. The cats approved and chewed away on it. I am impressed. Now onto phase 2, larger light with more LEDs and more experimenting.

While wandering through my local electronics store I stumbled across a dream. I found a 60000mcd water clear red LED. Yes, sixty thousand is correct! Qiuck math (which apparently in my head is not always accurate) shocked me to find out that my entire phase one grow light could be replaced by just over 2 LEDs. I just about fell over.

The downside. These puppies are expensive. $2.25 each with tax. My 100 light set up with the 5000mcd LEDs was going to cost me under $25. 500000mcd. Nine 60000mcd LEDs would give me 540000mcd at $20.25, just for the LEDs.

So now I ponder and design with my money and math.

And now for something completely different:

I would love to see this thread edited. It takes far too long to go through the "You can't grow with LEDs" "LEDs will never compare to HID lighting" to get to the information you need.

Now an exercise in futility.

As consideration to those of us that are experimenting with LEDs and are benifitting from the open exchange of information, is it possible for the narrow or close minded posters to keep their thoughts to themselves and not fill up the tread with crap?

Everyday I walk down the street and see stupid people. I resist the tempatation to tell them that they are stupid. I smile to myself and keep my mouth shut. I'm just asking the non-believers to smile.

When we have something good we will post it.

In all this you never mentioned what (NM)nanometer they are. That makes all the difference in the world. Can't just use red and blue.

[Old_as_Dirt]

http://www.growwithleds.com/uofmstudy.htm

[Tokudai]

That study is worthless - Why would you put a 400 Watt HPS Lamp ~ 6 feet away from the tops? 6 FEET?

Has ANYONE ever gotten an LED setup to (through) flower and compared the (only relevant calculation for us) grams/watt? I'm still waiting for that one..

[Wh173]

That study is worthless - Why would you put a 400 Watt HPS Lamp ~ 6 feet away from the tops? 6 FEET?

Has ANYONE ever gotten an LED setup to (through) flower and compared the (only relevant calculation for us) grams/watt? I'm still waiting for that one..

my friend have in second experiment 0.5g/W

[PearlJamFan]

Here is an some photos of a test I started. These are 2 clones taken from a plant started oustide, it is bag weed to boot. The pics were taken 2 days after transplanting from a peat pellet to the square container. They were under approx. 75w of CFL during rooting. There are 6 other sisters under a 400w mh. I will post comparisons as I get time to do so.

Here you go.

[PearlJamFan]

A couple of more pics.

[PearlJamFan]

Here are some photos taken just minutes ago. This will be day 5 under the LED's. In the last 2 photos are for comparison. The 2 on the left are the LED ones, the 3 on the right are the 400w MH ones.

[roadrunner]

Hi folks,

I'm new in LED growing and got only basic growing knowledge, so maybe I can get some helpful comments here.

History:

- First I started with 54 High-Power LED's (6 UV, 30 Red and 18 Royal Blue) in a little growroom (enough space for Bonsai ;-) ; only as an experiment).
Result: The plant growing speed was very slow :| . My reference plant on my balcony grows faster and higher.

- In the second step I've added some Luxeon LED's
Result: Wow - the growing speed increases potentially. The mass of the plant is now greater as them of my reference plant. Additionally it got more and bigger bastard brachnes!

- Now in my third step I use pulsed light (since two days). My current problem is primilary the temperature. With the non-pulsed Luxeons it was 28 degrees, now only 22. Will this be a problem? Without the fan (used to cool the Luxeons, which isn't needed with my pulse frequence) the tempereature is 26 degreed (optimal), but the humidness is about 70-80 per cent (50 with fan).

Have anyone made experience with pulsed lights. Are there really better results in growing? What frequencies and pulse-on/off times are you using?

What are you thinking about the healthiness of my plant (see attached pictures)?

What are you thinking about my project?

Do I really need a CO2-reactor to speed up growing?

In my opinion, growing with LED's is really possible, but you need a lot of them or Luxeons, but you can save a lot of costs for electricity. And the life time of LED's is much longer then of HID's, especially if you are using pulsed light (not overdrived).

[phytokind]

These homemade LED arrays are awesome, like Disco Star Trek or something, but why don't you just use the SolarOasis LEDs? They seem to have figured it all out already, the only problem might be the high cost.

[roadrunner]

The SolarOasis LED's are really to expensive!!! And I wan't to control the LED's by myself (current, pulsing). And why do you think, they solved the problem? In my opinion, they doesn't have anough power, as I experienced for myself with the High-Power LED's. With the Luxeon's, the growing speed increased so much, even though the wavelengths aren't 100 per cent optimally.

Sorry, but I would be appreciate for helpful comments regarding to my questions.

[phytokind]

Well check out this thread from a different message board, I think that on about page three he says that he got like 3oz from two plants just using solaroasis, but he used eight bars, which of course cost a lot.

http://hg420.com/showthread.php?t=16360

[roadrunner]

Fuck, you are really a ppromoter ;-)

Well, I'm using only 10 Luxeons (forget the additionally High-Power LED's), and my plant is raising extremly! I don't need eight bars (and I don't have space for them), and I've paid only 60$ for my Luxeons.
And I know the SolarOasis-Growing-Thread, and if I compare the pictures (OK I know, the plants are in a different growing stadium), I really believe that my results could be better. But currenly I'm looking for comments or a solution for my climate problems!

[roadrunner]

my plant today. It isn't growing faster, but it is growing (light on time: 4,7%)!
I will increase the light on time and the frequency!

[gotuve]

I'm thinking about picking up some LEDS what would be appropriate for something bout 10'x'10 room?

[roadrunner]

Use Blue and Red Luxeon's!
Attached you will find an actual image where you can see what they did with my plant ;-)

[invision]

is it just me or do those plants looks shitty???

i wouldnt bother with LED its just not comparable to other lights

[LowVoltageNerd]

grow bar plus + 2ft T5.

[LowVoltageNerd]

Guess I have to keep my posts PG here. Got all deleted. Damn censorship. Anyhow, these pics out of sequence and are a week older than the ones i posted before it. I have started training the plants by tying them down. I will post some picks of that soon. Macro lens comin in the mail.

[Moose101]

is it just me or do those plants looks shitty???

i wouldnt bother with LED its just not comparable to other lights

Most of these grows are done with 100 watts or less. Speaking of which, I wanna see a grow that matches the wattage of these other lights. Any growers out there with deep pockets that wanna contribute something back to the growing industry? Use the same amount of plants in a plot and compare a 1000 watt HPS with 1000 watts of red and blue. Since blue isn't up to spec maybe 800 watts of red LED + 200 watts of blue CFLs, or whatever ratio is optimal. Maybe 200 watts is more then the plants can absorb, maybe it's not. I don't know. A small amount of UV in there as well. Not to much though, and not focused in one area.

[porgy tirebiter]

apologize if already noted (no time 2b thorough) but an excellent thread (some 50 pages long) exists on uk420 that chronicles a full blown led grow with 23watts. amazing. good luck. some of y'all (turtle) are REALLY informed about led's, eh?

porgy

edit: just noticed, it's my (almost) one year anniversary!!!

[sdv4life]

hi i think this led thing is great and want to give it a try.

i heard the recommendations were luxeon's but noticed
there were few types.
any recommendations?

and about pulsing. i hear pulsing increases the growth.
is there a simple way to pulse the lights?
i'm not really good with this high tech science gadget...

[PearlJamFan]

Default
Here are some updated pics as of 09/29. They are still under only 2 small arrays that you see above. I have 3 & 4 almost done, just been lazy. In the comparison photos, the ones in the large pots were transplanted about 4 days before the photos ~09/25. I will be transplanting the LED one's soon.

I must tell you the the 400w mh ones are growing much nicer, but they do have a better environment to grow in. They temps are better and the light is much stronger. But I will admit the LED ones look pretty good to.

I will take more photos tomorrow.

[sdv4life]

road runner>>> where did you get the machine to pulse?
and i read through japanese study that the pulsing is best at
200~400(400 being the best)μs.
so why don't you give it a try when you have time.
it increases the growth by 20% or so. :)

if anyone is kind enough to hit me with the info for the LED and Pulsing machine
e-mail me!!! [email protected]

[maik]

I read this whole post and was worried....at first about the liddy-biddy LEDs the original guy was thinking, then it got worse with the grow/joke shop novelty LED bars, o-ghay-sis liddle array things - which are cool as supplements, or for that hightech application next to the office fish tank.

Some ghuy even said the only LED horticulture patents were owned by the toy company. HUNDREDS of LED horticultural patents exist - in the US alone!

Then people started talking about the Luxeons, which is the here and now of the LED horticultural edge (until the new Cree ones are out). First, for the completely ignorant and/or dogmatic, you're right. LEDs (as we knew them) aren't particularly great for growing.

But Luxeons, technically LEDs - Actually CLASS II LASER DEVICES - are completely suitable and are WAY (not "whay") better than the toy factory lights

Yes the Luxeons do work, and awesome. Sure you need a combination of blues (royal and regular) and reds (mostly reds, maybe a couple of red-orange, but more amber than red-oranges) to get the whole thing down, and the wiring is easy. Just practice some quick soldering.

UV ones only have NEGATIVE connotations to growth.

Just to buy the lux. stars, wire, and put on heat sink (as structural component) isn't so expensive. And if you compare the up front cost with the cost of ballast, bulb A and conversion bulb B, then the heat/ventilation issue.... and driving to the grow store, ordering through the mail...

Well, if you were cloning and using HID over LED, you' be plain stupid. Like dial-up versus broadband stupid.

I KNOW there are people who use LEDs such as Luxes, with awesome results, that's already a fact. Anything less than the Luxes really isn't worth doing, from a practical do-it-yourself view.

But I'm sure it's fun.

You should see what these things do with Masterlow and Lowryder strains!

And remember the code, never show pics of your finished LED grow! Ever!

[stinkyattic]

And remember the code, never show pics of your finished LED grow! Ever!

Why is that?

[turtle420]

axAnd remember the code, never show pics of your finished LED grow! Ever!

Why is that?
Um, yeah... why no pictures?

Pictures make us happy... happy people.
Just ask Garden Knowm.... he looooves pictures.
Heck, you could put a picture of a seaLion in the middle of some hydro pics, and he'll love it!

<><><><>
RE: LowVoltageNerd, roadrunner, and PearlJamFan
THANKS for the updates!!!
Very inteteresting to see these experiments. :)

Peace everyone,

-turtle420 :cool:
.

[Mary Stokes]

Yea we need pictures..

or is it just bat guanno. . lol :rasta:

[gmoney5ss]

i agree with everyone else, if you dont have pictures to prove what your claiming then your full of shit.. ( no offence ) but proven methods should always be shown, one to spread knowledge and help new growers and experienced alike, and second to prove that your not just making it all up.. cause i dont believe you untill i see a setup and a plant growing under it..

although i think exploring LED growlights could be very important and cost effective, but with no information or good reviews obviously either not enough people have tested it (which i doubt, people seem to test anything that would even yield a .5 gram more than what they are using), or it just doesnt work.. please prove me wrong if this method is so great

[ledgrower]

Most of these grows are done with 100 watts or less. Speaking of which, I wanna see a grow that matches the wattage of these other lights. Any growers out there with deep pockets that wanna contribute something back to the growing industry? Use the same amount of plants in a plot and compare a 1000 watt HPS with 1000 watts of red and blue. Since blue isn't up to spec maybe 800 watts of red LED + 200 watts of blue CFLs, or whatever ratio is optimal. Maybe 200 watts is more then the plants can absorb, maybe it's not. I don't know. A small amount of UV in there as well. Not to much though, and not focused in one area.



Dude idk man...your still not getting the picture..the whole idea of using leds it to cut down on power..a 1000 watts of leds...oh shit that would be a ton...u wouldnt have enough space...unless your running high watters ....the whole idea is too keep power down and wasted heat/light and plant intake of needed NM's up...

[Stuper Star]

...your still not getting the picture..the whole idea of using leds it to cut down on power..a 1000 watts of leds...u wouldnt have enough space...

Some people seek maximum yield for their current power use. They are not seeking to reduce their power use.
If a 1000W HID gets you 2lbs....we want to hear some miracle statement like "1000W of LED can give you 4lbs". If it took more plants and more floor space to do so, I'm sure many a grower could accommodate it for the extra yield:)

[ericwt]

Okay, could someone give me some guidance here.

I have extra time and no real life so this sounds like something I would like to try.

If you were going to start experimenting with LED's where would you begin?

What kind on Red and Blue led's should I get? What are the spec's of these lights and how many do I need?

I would like to make this simple. What would be the cheapest way to experiment with LED growing.

I would like to try this but links to NASA and technical papers fries my brain. Make it simple people. Kinds and spec's of lights needed for a experimental grow. How would you do it?

[mad max]

Any news about led grow lights?

[Mary Stokes]

i am still waitin for some proof that these things work.
We growers use hps bulbs cause they do the job and we show results here all the time.
come on dudes less talk and more results :smokin:

[Alaric]

all the way through------last time I researched led techonology the INTENSITY is very lacking.

Intensity of natural sunlight is around 10,000 fc (foot candles), clear summer day at noon.

A 1K hortilux produces that intensity about 18" directly below the fixture----another 18" is only 2500 fc (in the shade relative to sunlight).

Alaric

[Gart79]

all the way through------last time I researched led techonology the INTENSITY is very lacking.

Intensity of natural sunlight is around 10,000 fc (foot candles), clear summer day at noon.

A 1K hortilux produces that intensity about 18" directly below the fixture----another 18" is only 2500 fc (in the shade relative to sunlight).

Alaric

I will try to explain what I know (since I'm a physics person). If I'm wrong, anyone can correct me - I certainly wonâ??t take offence.

Basically, an LED is potentially the most efficient way of making light (pn-junction); itâ??s a diode. As some people on here are rightly pointing out, although light radiation can be given in intensity, it doesnâ??t mean anything to talk about the whole intensity of a source like the sun, if your including wavelengths that are unusable - one must concentrate on those particular colours that are (whatâ??s the intensity of blue and red in the white sunlight you mentioned?). Eg - take the sun, for example, say itâ??s about 1000w per M squared (power per unit area) on a good clear day. But plants are GREEN, which means that they reflect all that green light (they arenâ??t going to use it so we canâ??t compare it to the LEDs intensity). The suns spectrum is made of loads of colours.

So, now you have to take away all that green light (green and yellow and others, because plants only use red and blue right?) from the total intensity donâ??t you, because itâ??s meaningless to your plant to include things like yellow light intensity. But hey - itâ??s great to us humans because our eyes are really sensitive to that colour/wavelength (with me so far?).

So in order to make ANY comparisons to do with intensity, one must determine the intensities of the particular wavelengths of light (in a spectrum of emitted light from a source eg fluorescent/LED/sun) that our plants need.

With this in mind, I could see it is highly likely that a low intensity of 7W of LED's light (just the stuff our plants like) could outperform a 100W HID (because the HID gives out loads of light that the plant isnâ??t going to use).

It would be great if there were more reviews of this product online. I'm not saying itâ??s definitely brilliant, but it could be.

[Abattoir Dream]

well.... this is the first time ive read this thread, and its pretty cool, i was thinking of looking into it myself a while back, but never got round to it, now ive read this board, it made me think of using LED's for side lighting, only like, 10 per light, i think if a company found out the right mix of LED's, for good vegg. and flowering spectrums, and a way to keep it simple and tidy, they could sell pretty well, i mean, think about it, any grow could benefit from a few LED light boxes just sat in each corner, it wouldnt get too hot, and your plants would love it, even if you just had a couple as boosters for a cfl set-up, ready to be switched on for flowering... its definately something i would pay for, if it existed...

[Gart79]

my reasoning behind going LED was the total waste of electricity that even my highly efficiently bright wing fluorescent was making (110W), and not forgetting the highly suspiciously orange/yellow glow I'm forced to have emanating from my wardrobe. Lol - Itâ??s a nightmare!

IF these LED lights do what they are claiming to do (http://www.solaroasis.com/grow_shop.htm#Gro-Bar%20Professional), then I'll be willing to convert some pounds to dollars and purchase from the US, but I cant understand why there arenâ??t any UK distributors yet.

If I go online looking for good and honest personal reviews by customers about LED grow lights, there arenâ??t any, just a lot of speculation - which, although more is always welcome, is no substitute for a real trial.

I'm not going to put these things down right away, because I have studied LED tech and know about what is poss. If these are good/get good enough (which is inevitable really), then all other grow lights will be obsolete, making all those ballasts and other things obsolete too; all those air cooled HIDS and all those range of products will go. It will mean grow projects can happen more out in the open in a house, rather than confind to some sellar, or spare room (in could be in the corner, behing a curtain), because the light the plant absorbs, we humans are not sensitive to (unlike the onslaught of light given off by flouresents and HIDs) and thatâ??s why Iâ??m really interested!

[Treetops]

http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=62193&st=40

[Gart79]

Cheers for that; itâ??s quite interesting! I think I'll go and buy an LED array. They (solar oasis) are claiming 100W HID's/250W fluorescents worth of useful plant light from one ruby bar (that is possible, because most a HIDs light is wasted, whereas no LED light is wasted). If thatâ??s true, thatâ??s enough light output for my small grow!

The grow shops (in our country) are claiming that LED lighting is not being looked into, as it isnâ??t productive enough; someone is not quite right; I just guess it'll cost me 130 quid and a fare amount of hassle to find out.

[oldsanclem]

The bright red tail light is a very narrow spectrum. I have tried to use a white hight output leds in a tail light. Installed it in to the tail light. Put power to it , and no light came out the red lens. Reason a White led does not produce a spectrum of reds. NOW all the leds red, blue, green etc are all that way. Now if you look at the spectrum of growing its a smooth arc. NOT (freq's or angstroms )
IF leds worked it would be all over the internet and in every industral user would jump on them faster than a duck on a june bug.
O WELL back to using 30 year old florsents 4 ft bulbs and a 30 year old Mh ballast and a new bulbs.
O lord I see the light, zaaaaap , darn its a bug zapper.
Now think if LED did work effeciently industy would use them in a heart beat. After all its only a few Billion dollars saved each year.
Do pot grower know something industry does not know.
Bottom line my fairy godmusther is a whore and charges for her favors. :pimp:

[Gart79]

The bright red tail light is a very narrow spectrum. I have tried to use a white hight output leds in a tail light. Installed it in to the tail light. Put power to it , and no light came out the red lens. Reason a White led does not produce a spectrum of reds. NOW all the leds red, blue, green etc are all that way. Now if you look at the spectrum of growing its a smooth arc. NOT (freq's or angstroms )
IF leds worked it would be all over the internet and in every industral user would jump on them faster than a duck on a june bug.
O WELL back to using 30 year old florsents 4 ft bulbs and a 30 year old Mh ballast and a new bulbs.
O lord I see the light, zaaaaap , darn its a bug zapper.
Now think if LED did work effeciently industy would use them in a heart beat. After all its only a few Billion dollars saved each year.
Do pot grower know something industry does not know.
Bottom line my fairy godmusther is a whore and charges for her favors. :pimp:

The reason why you donâ??t get a red from what is called a white LED is that there is no red light in the spectrum (hence your filter cannot filter it out as it isnâ??t there to begin with). Its really a blue LED with yellow phosphor (thatâ??s what I've learnt). Interesting experiment though! I donâ??t see how that could affect the chances of LED plant lighting succeeding? LEDs usually donâ??t emit a wide spectrum because of the way they make light. That is an advantage in plant lighting, as plants only use certain bandwidth of light energy, so what you said is actually an advantage for plant lighting and is not a problem at all really.

[Gart79]

The bright red tail light is a very narrow spectrum. I have tried to use a white hight output leds in a tail light. Installed it in to the tail light. Put power to it , and no light came out the red lens. Reason a White led does not produce a spectrum of reds. NOW all the leds red, blue, green etc are all that way. Now if you look at the spectrum of growing its a smooth arc. NOT (freq's or angstroms )
IF leds worked it would be all over the internet and in every industral user would jump on them faster than a duck on a june bug.
O WELL back to using 30 year old florsents 4 ft bulbs and a 30 year old Mh ballast and a new bulbs.
O lord I see the light, zaaaaap , darn its a bug zapper.
Now think if LED did work effeciently industy would use them in a heart beat. After all its only a few Billion dollars saved each year.
Do pot grower know something industry does not know.
Bottom line my fairy godmusther is a whore and charges for her favors. :pimp:


The reason why you donâ??t get a red from what is called a white LED is that there is no red light in the LED's spectrum (hence it doesnâ??t appear the other side of your filter). Its really a blue LED with yellow phosphor (thatâ??s what I've learnt). Interesting experiment though!

I really donâ??t see how that could affect the chances of LED plant lighting succeeding? LEDs donâ??t emit a wide spectrum because of the way they make light. That is an advantage in plant lighting, as plants only use certain bandwidth of light energy, so what you said is actually an advantage for plant lighting and is not a problem at all really.

if you want red light on your car's break lights, I would use red LED's that emit red light. With ordinary lighting, your having to filter out all those colours apart from the colour you want (i.e. red) - highly inefficient! with LEDs you just get that one colour you wanted emitted right from the source itself â?? no need to filter.

Hope this helps.

[Gart79]

ooooops seems I posted twice by mistake!

[Treetops]

http://ledsmagazine.com/ :thumbsup:

[ledgrower]

www.led-grow-master.com sells world wide and they have the bars that u can put in a corner grow...look them up....pc

[chron-chron]

L.E.D. lghts work very well in my opinion. i have a couple green star grow bars and some red l.e.d. panels for side lighting. they cost some xtra money but they work incredible for vegging (greenstars) and the red panels make an awesome side lighting for fat lower buds when used with my 430 hortilux i have gotten the fullest buds from top to bottom when usually my bottoms were quite stretchy in the past. all of the under branching thickens up amazingly adding about a 10%-15% overall yeild to my plants. wich is quite a bit. i would reccomend using leds bottom line.

[Zimzum]

L.E.D. lghts work very well in my opinion. i have a couple green star grow bars and some red l.e.d. panels for side lighting. they cost some xtra money but they work incredible for vegging (greenstars) and the red panels make an awesome side lighting for fat lower buds when used with my 430 hortilux i have gotten the fullest buds from top to bottom when usually my bottoms were quite stretchy in the past. all of the under branching thickens up amazingly adding about a 10%-15% overall yeild to my plants. wich is quite a bit. i would reccomend using leds bottom line.

I was thinking of incorporating LEDs with CFLs. LEDs for side and bottom lighting due to there low heat. CFLs up top.

[chron-chron]

look at this it might help a little.. tech notes. Eco Green Star Grow Bar (http://www.efficientindoorlightingtechnologies.com/tech.html)

[chron-chron]

this bar is supposed to be equal to a 250 watt but uses 12watts i got 2 and 2 red 25 bulb panels for side lighting that use like 15 watts or somthiing, with my 430 watt hortilux so my flower room uses around 460 watts but i get around an 800 watt light output. i think if you have the extra cash you should buy a few just so you can see..

[ericwt]

I am going to be ordering LED lighting from Hong Kong.

I need specks on what requirements the red and blue lights need to grow tomatoes.

What would be the ultimate LED lighting system? How many red and blue lights and what kind of specifications on the LED output? Bulbs or light strips?

Looking to do a 4 plant cabinet system for smaller plants.

Would love your ideas. The sooner I figure this out the faster I will make it happen.

I am willing to share results here. I know LED is the future of growing.:jointsmile:

[Lozt]

There is a company that makes a grow bar with leds it is called Oasis google search Plant grow lights led or led Light bar plant growth I dont know how to add the link

[Gart79]

The really strange thing about plants absorbing only red and blue (purple when mixed), is that there is more yellow and green light out there! Now thatâ??s weird! Our eyes learned to be more sensitive to green and yellow, but plants didn't. Turns out they think that there were actually plants able to absorb all that green and yellow sun light out there, and it was a purple plant! Our plants are only green because red and blue was the only useful light that came through the other plants for the ancestor of our plants (the ones we know and love) to absorb! Weird to think, if things had been different, the world leaders wouldnâ??t be as much concerned with converting to green energy as converting to purple energy.

[manwithbike]

Hey everyone

A friend and I have invested a bit of money on a grow op which includes the xb100 led starter system from GROW WITH LEDsâ?¢ - Growing Plants Using LED Lighting (http://www.growwithleds.com), stealth grow bubbleponics system, and some feminized white widow seeds from marijuana-seeds.nl. We're waiting on the seeds which should be here any day, but we checked out the lights today and they're awesome. I'll keep everyone posted on our results

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

I love stuff like this...new techniques, revolutionary developments. I look forward to reading everyone's experiences.

[RAZ90909]

What would happen if you strobed the led's or used car neon tubes?

[Mista Sparkle]

If LEDs for plants are successful at growing and flowering, they will revolutionize indoor gardening. And I can't wait...

The Eco Green Star Grow Bar (http://www.efficientindoorlightingtechnologies.com/) has the most attractive overall package. They have information on color, power consumption, recommended growing areas per bar, and more at their website. Each bar is equivalent to 1 250 watt MH or HPS lamp.

Pricing is anywhere from $179 for 1 bar to $1,969.00 for 11 bars.

I would love to try these and stop worrying about ventilation for my cabinet.

[outerspace]

Ive seen some of the led things folks have been putting together over the years and thought I could do better. This is a solid sheet of LED with 660 and 470nm lights the most powerful available in 5mm. I found some better blues at 430nm that are really bright and I should have used those instead. I thought of alot of improvements including a way to achieve 90% power efficiency from the wall socket and a way to adjust the power going into the red or blue lights if you want to 'change seasons.'

Theres just one point I dont think anyone has touched on here yet, is the efficiency of LEDs. They can be around 10-20% efficient, meaning 80-90% of the power you put in is turned into heat, and this is not much better than HPS. More power is wasted into heat as you convert AC to DC, and then even more when you regulate your DC to 20mA.

I heard some folks mention that the high-flux LEDs that require a heatsink are the only ones that work. It takes about 60 discrete 5mm LEDs to equal the luminous flux of 1 high power led. The thing is, 60 discrete LEDs are 1/5 the price of 1 high power LED and thats not including the heatsink. Additionally, high power LEDs have a much lower rated lifespan.

Anyway, let me know what you think. I have not tested it on a plant but I know it kicks the crap out of eco green star and ledgrowlights.com.

[ledfever]

dude outerspace, that is the sweetest led set up i have ever seen. interested in selling one of those light boards? im working on a led/hps flower box (mostly leds and only 250 watt hps) i want to see if i can pull as much if not more than my 600 watt hps in the same enviroment :thumbsup:

let me know ya?

[moeburn]

Theres just one point I dont think anyone has touched on here yet, is the efficiency of LEDs. They can be around 10-20% efficient, meaning 80-90% of the power you put in is turned into heat, and this is not much better than HPS. More power is wasted into heat as you convert AC to DC, and then even more when you regulate your DC to 20mA.


He's right. LEDs are way more efficient than incandescent bulbs, but they're not 100% efficient. Here's the chart:

Luminous efficacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficiency#Examples)

An HPS bulb has a luminous efficiency of 22%, while white LEDs have efficiencies from 3.8% to 10.2%, with only prototypes reaching up to 22%.
So, by using LED bulbs for growing, you are spending more money per bulb, and you are going to be spending more money on your electricity bill.

Sounds pretty stupid to me.

[Al B. Fuct]

I heard some folks mention that the high-flux LEDs that require a heatsink are the only ones that work. It takes about 60 discrete 5mm LEDs to equal the luminous flux of 1 high power led. The thing is, 60 discrete LEDs are 1/5 the price of 1 high power LED and thats not including the heatsink. Additionally, high power LEDs have a much lower rated lifespan.


Good points all, but at this moment, ALL LEDs (high-output type which must be heat-sinked or not) are far too expensive, far too inefficient and don't produce near enough luminous output per LED device to be useful in a grow op.

The problem being that luminous output figures (lumens) added together are meaningless. Putting one light source next to another does not make either one any brighter. Lumens are a measure of perceived brightness, not a measure of photons being thrown at your leaves.

For example, if you have CFLs rated at 1300 lumens and you have 50 of them, you then have 50 light sources which are 1300 lumens 'bright,' not 50x 1300 lumens. Same goes for LEDs. The smaller, lower output LEDs, even if run in great numbers, will never be as bright as an LED with a higher luminous output.

Cannabis needs the brightness (or light intensity) to keep internodal lengths short and produce high-density buds. I have yet to see an LED grow that didn't show signs of serious light starvation.

LEDs are a terrific technology; the increases in output and reliability are coming by leaps and bounds in recent years... but it's not quite to the point where you can grow plants with them.

[Al B. Fuct]

Mind you, I don't begrudge anyone the privilege of experimenting with new technologies. No one but us is likely to try the new stuff on cannabis.

However, if one is on a limited budget and just wants to grow some dope with little money or is a very new grower, spending up on re-inventing the wheel via experimental technologies probably isn't for you. Use what is proven to work well.