LED grow lights... input please.

[khronik]

He's right. LEDs are way more efficient than incandescent bulbs, but they're not 100% efficient. Here's the chart:

Luminous efficacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficiency#Examples)

An HPS bulb has a luminous efficiency of 22%, while white LEDs have efficiencies from 3.8% to 10.2%, with only prototypes reaching up to 22%.
So, by using LED bulbs for growing, you are spending more money per bulb, and you are going to be spending more money on your electricity bill.

Sounds pretty stupid to me.
You're missing the one major advantage of LEDs here, that being that LED systems only output light on wavelengths that is ideal for plants to use. So even if a HPS system is 22% efficient, about 90% of that light is wasted because the plant can't use it, so really only 2.2% of that light is being used. An LED only puts out light one a single wavelengths, so with them, the numbers are reversed, and like 95% of the light being output is absorbed.

I found another site selling LED grow lights, this one looks a little more promising:

gro-tek.com

[Al B. Fuct]

LEDs produce a very narrow spectral output; a bandwidth of only about 25nm wide for the most part. LEDs might be able to produce the centre-frequency of an ideal flowering spectrum and a few nm each way, but very little outside that narrow bandwidth, contributing to a completely insufficient luminous output overall.

Have a look at the broad spectral output of the sun (http://escience.anu.edu.au/lecture/cg/Color/Image/sunSpectrum.png) (which is what we're shooting for), the narrower and peakier HPS (http://www.bestgrowlights.com/members/403863/uploaded/EYE_HPS_conversion_graph.gif) (though which is reasonably well matched to the plant's flowering requirements) and then these sample red, blue and yellow LED spectral curves (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/f/f4/Red-YellowGreen-Blue_LED_spectra.png). Because of the narrow bandwidth of current technology LEDs, if you were replicating Old Sol or even HPS, several LEDs with slightly differing centre frequencies in each main color band would have to be used- and each would have to produce high luminous output, around 8-10K lumens each, to be of any effectiveness, even compared to CFLs.

If all that was needed to grow dope was light of the correct colour, you should reasonably be able to make up an image in Photoshop which is the correct colour and point your monitor at the plants... and I think we all know that won't work.

LEDs are a great technology. One of these days, someone will work out how to get the luminous ouput level and breadth of spectral output where they're needed. However, until then, LEDs are toys which won't actually grow you any appreciable amount of weed.

Experiment all you like- but by the time you get done sinking several hundred bucks into LEDs, you'd have had an HPS and a decent exhaust/ventilation system bought and paid for.

[Al B. Fuct]

You're missing the one major advantage of LEDs here, that being that LED systems only output light on wavelengths that is ideal for plants to use.

Unfortunately, plants don't live on just a couple of narrow peaks in the spectrum.

Yes, cannabis prefers a blue emphasised spectrum for veg and a red-orange spectrum for flowering- but notice I said spectrum, not wavelength.

When we say wavelength, we're referring to a pronounced, narrow bump in the spectral curve around a central frequency. 'Spectrum' refers to a broad band of different wavelengths between an upper and a lower limit, with light of relatively equal amplitude (intensity) between the points.

Back to first principles. You can bet that the plant has evolved to grow in sunlight. Whatever lighting system you cook up, the closer it is to Old Sol, the more likely cannabis will like to grow under it. The sun is a broadbanded light (and other EM radiation) source. Current tech LEDs are not.

We know HPS is broad enough and produces enough luminous output in suitable ranges to flower cannabis effectively (and is no slouch vegging, either). Fluoros are broad enough but lack intensity. LEDs lack both breadth of spectra and output intensity.

It's gonna happen- someone will soon cook up LEDs bright and broad enough to be car headlights. When that happens, LED grow lights effective for cannabis might start to become a practical possibility.

[khronik]

Unfortunately, plants don't live on just a couple of narrow peaks in the spectrum.
They can. If they couldn't, LED grow lights would not work at all. Just because I don't live on pop-tarts, beef jerky, and vitamin pills, doesn't mean I couldn't.


Yes, cannabis prefers a blue emphasised spectrum for veg and a red-orange spectrum for flowering- but notice I said spectrum, not wavelength.
Yes, chlorophyll can absorb a spectrum of light, but i doubt it can tell the difference between different shades of red. It can tell the difference between blue and red, but that seems to be all. And LED systems are set to use the wavelengths that are most readily absorbed in the blue and red spectrums.


When we say wavelength, we're referring to a pronounced, narrow bump in the spectral curve around a central frequency. 'Spectrum' refers to a broad band of different wavelengths between an upper and a lower limit, with light of relatively equal amplitude (intensity) between the points.

Back to first principles. You can bet that the plant has evolved to grow in sunlight. Whatever lighting system you cook up, the closer it is to Old Sol, the more likely cannabis will like to grow under it. The sun is a broadbanded light (and other EM radiation) source. Current tech LEDs are not.
This last part I take issue with. Does any indoor grower try to emulate the sun with their lighting system? No, they try and emulate the chlorophyll absorbsion spectrum. Plants, and all other living things, have evolved to survive in the natural environment, but that doesn't mean that environment is ideal for them. I for one, prefer my house to the african savannah.

I attached a nice graph of an LED grow light spectrum superimposed on the chlorophyll absorbsion spectrum.

[Al B. Fuct]

OK, khronik, if LEDs work so well, you show me pix of an LED grow that's doing as well as an HPS op with all other conditions right.

They just don't make the luminous output needed- this is why LED grows look like they've been left in the dark, because in comparison to what the plant needs, that's ostensibly what it's getting.

You won't mind if I don't chug Jack Daniels by the case while I'm waiting for pix of those forearm sized colas, willya?

I'm all for new tech. LEDs will get there- but they are not there yet. Give it 5 years and we'll talk again.

Mind you, I'm not taking YOU to task- only LED grow lighting technology.

[Schrodingersdog]

I think that using LED lights would work fine for growing pot. You just have to cover the absorption spectra of the plant. The only way, as far as I know, that the plant absorbs light energy is through chlorophyll a and b.

Looking at the absorption spectra chart Chlorophyll absorption spectrum (http://www.mbari.org/staff/ryjo/cosmos/Cabs.html) It looks like there are peaks around 425, 460, 640, and 660 nanometers. LEDs are specified by their dominant wavelength...easy enough to select some that would work for that (or at least close to it...they only produce them at certain frequencies after all). As long as these peaks are covered, the plant will gather energy, probably not as much as from a full spectrum light, but the light that strikes the plant will be more efficiently turned into energy for the plant to use. HID lights do the same thing, but there are a lot of wasted frequencies emitted that the plant uses very inefficiently. Check out this link if you want to learn more than you ever cared to about light emission spectra: The Science of Color, the Emission Spectra of the Elements and Some Lamp Engineering Applications (http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/spectroscope/elements.html#halide)

Ok...so what about the brightness of LED lights as compared to HID lighting? It is true that most LED lights are not very bright (~.5 lumens each), but certain types are produced (do a search for superflux LEDs on ebay) that put out ~40 lumens each. Thats pretty good when you consider that an array of 50 puts out about the same as a 100W flourescent bulb (~2000 lumens). Yes, thats not nearly as much as, say a 400W HPS (~58000 lumens), but if heat and power consumption are a concern, then LEDs may be a viable option.

I built two little LED arrays out of the superflux LEDs I talked about and currently have a few seedlings underneath them. They are at least not dying! I'll upload some pictures soon. My aim is not really to have a large yeild necessarily, but to reduce heat and power consumption...and to try something cool. They were pretty cheap to build by the way...all it consists of is 2x $10 packs of LEDs, some perfboard (~$10), some reflectors and a DC supply (from an old computer....dedicated DC power supplies are pretty expensive) I jacked from work. It did take a while to wrap the wires however. Who knows...I haven't done a lot of growing and chances are I'll kill my plants without seeing how well my LEDs work!

[oldsanclem]

This has gone on for a few years now and not one, bit of data.
Grams/watts/month. If It worked It would be used by NASA , they have more money than any pot grower. But they still use florsent pannel arrays.
O God I want it Fast, Cheap, and right now.
You want to know something funny a 30 year old ballast and new bulb, still is the proven way. Wow ballast older than most on this board O Well

[khronik]

To be fair, NASA is testing LED grow light technology.

The new digital ballasts are an improvement on magnetic ones though. :D

[Schrodingersdog]

Just an update on my seedlings...they're alive and well under the LEDs, but not having grown too much I can't say how they're doing in comparison to HID lighting. They've stretched a bit till now they're pretty much touching the lights, but there's not enough heat put off by them to harm the plants it seems.

Soon I'm gonna hook up a wattmeter to my power supply and see how much power I'm actually drawing, but ideally it should just be about 3.2(Volts per LED)X.02(amps)X50(#of LEDs) = 3.2 watts!

Since its a ghetto rigged power supply, some is being wasted though a dummy load to trick the computer power supply into thinking there's a motherboard there.....so we'll see how wasteful these suckers are....

[Opie Yutts]

So, the seedlings should have grown now. What do the adults look like? Please?

[md.apothecary]

I have seen LED's compared to HPS 400w, and they're almost identical.

Growing Marijuana with LED, Growshow (http://www.ledgrow.eu/)

this is strictly a LED grow I find online....

[Opie Yutts]

Thanks for the link. Very interesting, but I don't undestand why the guy has the LEDs 3 feet from the plants. One advantage of LEDs is that you can put them right next to the plants, for much better growth. He's producing scraggly looking plants, but he is experimenting, and he is getting buds. He needs more LEDs and he needs to have them closer to the plants.

[BUDZOOR]

Bed Bath & Beyond Product

Anyone herd or used these befor?

[BUDZOOR]

or these

C. Crane 120V 35 LED Light Bulb

[Opie Yutts]

I don't know anything about that first one except that it looks terrible for weed farming. Is it even LED? Assuming the 2nd one is in the proper wavelength, then yes it will work well. You would probably need 20 or so to grow a plant, and 50 or 100 of those to come close to equalling the yield of 400 watt MH. Just a stab at it.

[Ziggy Stardust]

im not too sure but if you look at the base of the babies it appears that the beam itself is only just spredding out enough to cover the entire plant. its my opinion that the reason he has them so high is inorder to have his lights cast a beam wide enough to cover it all? and did u see the end result? the size of the buds was very small as was the total amount.

kids ive been watching this whole LED thing for a really long time and for whatever reason NO ONE is posting any math formulas (in relation to abount of useable light required - per ft squared) ) / nano meters (to determine which of hundreds of types of LEDS to use - even within the red and blue wavelengths / lens types (to determine the spred pattern so that lights may be hung at the proper height) what we need to do is CONTACT some of these LED vendors and invite them to either post their addys here and researching specs in thier literiture or post INFORMATION..... maybe even make it known to these vendors that those who comply with our requests will be the PRIMARY suppiliers to the DOZENS of comsumers that are willing to invest HUGE amounts updating our rooms from this very site???

this is somthing that has to be done because i dont know about everyone but i do know that electricity is killing me costing me an extra $250 - $300 a month not to mention how much is being wasted just to COOL a room because of the intense heat generated by HIDs. all i know is that if any of these manufactures were to put out info id read it and if some were conflicting then id read it all and average out the #s...this has gone long enough what we need are some hard facts

[Opie Yutts]

There are LED's that shine in a wider angle, thus allowing you to get them close to the plant. You could get them close to the plant with non wide angle LED's too, you would just have to use a more reasonable amount. This is extremely necessary as the intensity greatly decreases as you move them back.

I agree about getting some numbers down. LEDs for weed farming is such a new concept it hasn't been thoroughly studied and documented. Ziggy, wanna be the first? I wish I could but I just don't have the time, darn it. I got a few numbers, but not enough for a real grow.

I still am waiting to see an LED grow that produced buds of any significance. I have no doubt that a person could get some decent bud from LED lighting. In general people are going about it wrong, and they refuse to spend any money to boot. At this point the initial set up would be expensive as hell to get one plant to bud nicely, but it can be done. Due to the life expectancy and low power draw, very soon they will become viable. Perhaps even today.

[SFGurrilla]

LEDs are nice. Low heat, means less A/C bill. Plus they run very low power. So less electricty used. They save money and grow some sick plants because you can perfect the color spectrum to how the plant works.

[Opie Yutts]

LEDs are nice... They save money and grow some sick plants.

You got any links or examples?

Cause I have yet to see any.

[ojitos1985]

I am doing a plataform with aprox 500 leds after reading this post, 250 red and 250 blues, pics soon.

[Opie Yutts]

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing it. How many plants for the 500 LEDs? I'm thinking one, but my guess is that you are doing more. What nm red and blue?

[ojitos1985]

I am constructing a movable device for my clones, i am just waiting my plant to be able to give me some, with 500 ultra bright leds, 50% red and 50% blue, this is because i can not put high heat inside my closet, my options were CFL or fluo tubes, and now i will prove some luck with the leds. If it does work, will be really, really nice for me, with no danger of starting a fire in my case (because my closet its too small) and i can go for some vacations out there lol

I will upload pics as soon as my device is taking form.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I still am waiting to see an LED grow that produced buds of any significance. I have no doubt that a person could get some decent bud from LED lighting. In general people are going about it wrong, and they refuse to spend any money to boot. At this point the initial set up would be expensive as hell to get one plant to bud nicely, but it can be done. Due to the life expectancy and low power draw, very soon they will become viable. Perhaps even today.

Opie i represent a co-op here in calif whose soul purpose is to cultivate medicinal cannabis for really sick people. my clients have decided long ago to spend whatever it takes to get what we need. currently this is what were looking at .....

HID Hut - the makers of the LED UFO - The Brightest LED on the Planet

as you can all now see this is a very expensive product. the co-op is in the process of buying THOUSANDS of dollars of lights and whatever you can possible help us with would be deeply appreciated.

thank you

[Opie Yutts]

If your co-op has money to experiment, then I would say go ahead and get some of those UFO's. I've studied up on what's available today, and those are some of the best available at this time, if not the best. However, it would be experimental at this point, and I would quadruple the number of UFO's per area that they recommend. I would not deplete your entire lighting fund until you tried maybe one or two of those for an entire grow, budding as well. I keep saying that I have yet to see anything budded solely with LED's that produces anything worthwhile, and I have yet to be shown how I am wrong. They work OK for vegging, budding is a different can of worms.

Notice the info said it can be used as a supplement to CFL or HID. That's all I would recommend at this time, and your money would be much better spent on some CFLs that are the proper spectrum. If you want to steer away from HID because of heat/power draw, I would recommend studying up on the newer more efficient T-5 fluorescent lights. Of course there is nothing on the market that compares to the results you get with HPS during budding.

If you or your clients are willing to spend whatever it takes, and you are dead set on getting LEDs at this time, I would pay someone to make the proper LED arrays for you, or at least design them. People who manufacture LED lighting products at this time use maybe one nm (color) for blue and one for red. I'm guessing to be truly efficient, your going to want about 6 or 8 other colors, or varying degrees of red and blue, with the blue being the dominant color during veg and red being the dominant color during bud. Not just any blue and red, but the proper nm that corresponds to peak chlorophyll activity.

Good luck and let me know if you have more questions. I'm not an expert, but I have studied LED's.

[Blumen]

I'm reading here since quite a while and this post made me sign up finally.

I'm looking into building a led light with high-power leds (I personally wouldn't go for a 5mm led system), being into electronics since, well, decades. So I can compare my findings to the products that arrived on the market lately. One of the lights is the mentioned UFO, the other known to me is the procyon 100 from howngrownlights. Both have 80-100W of power-dissipation, something I aimed at for my own system, which I see somewhere between a 250 and 400W HID system.

I will have to try myself. A site testing (not selling) both of them - along with other led systems - on vegetables is maybe everybody should have a look at, if considering using leds for grow.

[Shambala]

I just bought two different led grow lights. Both using the same leds. One is the flat panel type with 225 mixed red/blue leds. And the other is the screw in bulb type with 168 mixed red/blue leds, 30 blue and 138 red.
I'll update later when they have arrived and been set up.
Blue LED light range - 430nm radiation peak athwart a 466nm emission range,
Red LED light range - 662nm radiation peak athwart a 680nm emission range,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/fourteesicksandtoo/fd97_1_sbl.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/fourteesicksandtoo/RB225lite_up.jpg


I would like to get one of these as well so that I can stimulate flowering in specific parts of the plant while leaving the main lights on above.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/fourteesicksandtoo/ffb1_1_sbl.jpg
This chart may or may not have already been posted but either way here it is again.
LED Grow Lights Gro-Tek GroTec HID Hydroponic light Fluorescent Growing Metal halide MH growing indoors indoors Ultraviolet Infrared light emitting diodes (http://www.gro-tek.com/flatpanelphotos.html)

[Blumen]

Prepare to have the light very close to your plants, unlike the pictures for those 5mm led-lights show. Closer than CFL.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I still am waiting to see an LED grow that produced buds of any significance. I have no doubt that a person could get some decent bud from LED lighting. In general people are going about it wrong, and they refuse to spend any money to boot. At this point the initial set up would be expensive as hell to get one plant to bud nicely, but it can be done. Due to the life expectancy and low power draw, very soon they will become viable. Perhaps even today.

posted below are photos and a grow diary. i dont know if this is what your wanting but it appears to be the most extensive work ive seen thus far - he observes that on his next LED proj he would req of the manuf hes working w to increase the amt of RED lights used to foster more flower development

we can do better than this kids if we all share what were doing and how its working as for me im ordering my 1st ste of OFO's this week and starting my 1st LED grow under thier currend BLUE matrix and will f/u by req that a more RED matrix be developed


Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting (http://www.greenpinelane.com/default.aspx)

[Treetops]

Thanks for the link. Very interesting, but I don't undestand why the guy has the LEDs 3 feet from the plants. One advantage of LEDs is that you can put them right next to the plants, for much better growth. He's producing scraggly looking plants, but he is experimenting, and he is getting buds. He needs more LEDs and he needs to have them closer to the plants.

Opie,
Check this guys grow...hes got them all over the place.....

Treetops:thumbsup:


http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-growing/113153-lowryder2-hps-led.html

[the image reaper]

Lowryder :wtf: (and, notice he combined a HPS with the LEDs) ... I'm with Opie on this one "show me a BIGASS marijuana plant grown under LEDs" :jointsmile: ... I don't think ya can show me that, without spending $100,000 on LED lights ... but, it is a very intriguing idea, regardless, I'm hoping for great results :smokin:

[Atkeni]

I think the point of using LED's (for me at least) wouldnt be efficiency of growing bigass plants, but instead, the almost zero heat generated.

Imagine a set of 6 large speakers (the 2.5ft tall , bigass ones)

In the bottom, you have walls lined with LED lights, on every side, and a lowryder/lowlife in the middle. no vents required, just a burping everyday.

in the top 6"? an actual working speaker

if you get 1oz / plant, and have 6 speakers, you'll be getting two thirds of an ounce a week, enough for a light/weekend smoker, and a reasonable amount for a medical user.

its the perfect stealth setup, nobody would ever realise.

[Opie Yutts]

quote=Treetops:
Opie,
Check this guys grow...hes got them all over the place.....

Yeah, too bad he had to do like everyone else as done, and wreck the experiment by putting in other lights. The people that need to do this are the people that either don't smoke weed or have plenty of weed, so they don't worry about yield and ruin the experiment.


I keep saying that I have yet to see anything budded solely with LED's that produces anything worthwhile, and I have yet to be shown how I am wrong. They work OK for vegging, budding is a different can of worms.

[Opie Yutts]

I am not against LED lighting by any means, and I know that one day people all over the world will be trashing their other lights and switching to LED's. That day will be 6/12/0018.

[Opie Yutts]

Well dip me in shit and roll me in sugar.

Here's the best I've seen so far:

YouTube - LED vs. HPS 25 days into flowering (http://youtube.com/watch?v=pN5ZdwKpwRA&feature=related)

Or search youtube for "LED vs. HPS"

He did several videos at different stages, but this one is the last, and it's 25 days into flowering. Where is the results video?

[foodsy]

Well dip me in shit and roll me in sugar.

Here's the best I've seen so far:

YouTube - LED vs. HPS 25 days into flowering (http://youtube.com/watch?v=pN5ZdwKpwRA&feature=related)

Or search youtube for "LED vs. HPS"

He did several videos at different stages, but this one is the last, and it's 25 days into flowering. Where is the results video?

Not sure. The video was posted in July...

[Treetops]

quote=Treetops:
Opie,
Check this guys grow...hes got them all over the place.....

Yeah, too bad he had to do like everyone else as done, and wreck the experiment by putting in other lights. The people that need to do this are the people that either don't smoke weed or have plenty of weed, so they don't worry about yield and ruin the experiment.

But he has put a lot time and effort in his experiment...which I thought was well worth the look...He has spent some dollars as those lights are pricey...

Peace,
Treetops :)

[Blumen]

I'm with Opie Yutts there. Almost all of the led grows I saw messed up at some point or the other. I was reading pages after pages of good info and then there is a CFL involved, early flowering, change in nutrients, a friend took over for holidays and let them die, one yanked them out being paranoid, HPS got introduced to save the yield, etc. I would have been happy to just hear that it takes 2 weeks more to have the same yield, or something like that. Still I hope people continue to do their grows, at some point there will be semi-scientific data.

[nicobrau]

Hey whatsup ladies and gentlemen, this is my first post over here. Nice to meet you folks and forgive me if you sometimes dont understand something on my posts, English is not my first language.

I've read very intesting information on this board, and this thread especifically has stuck me around and made me think about all this LED stuff.

It seems that the main goal of this thread has been testing the LED system as the only sourse of light to the plants. In my undestanding, it looks like the theory of provide only the wavelength used by the plants makes a pretty good sense, but so far, the LED system doesnt seem to be working very consistently by itself, based in the results shown by some folks over here. But what about a LED/HPS combo system? Somebody has tried it all the way?

I have my little garden inside a 2'x3' wardrobe running a 400W HPS setup, which gives me a great amount of light, but also gives me a big pain on the ass to control the temperature when the ligth is on.

I was wondering how my crop would perform if I change the 400w for a 150, maybe 250w HPS and add to the system something like 4 to 6 of those 168 LED bulbs, w/ more blue or red depending on the plants stage.

I pretty sure that a system w/ a 150wHPS plus 6 of those LED bulbs would cut the costs on energy by the half at least, as well as the temperature generated. Less and smaller fans would be necessary as well as less exhausting cicles.

If the goal w/ the LED is to drop down operational costs and provide a better and easier way to control the heat, a combo system like that would be a half way to the ideal situation. At least until the LED technology be better tested and developed to be used all alone.

I got no money right now to change my light setup, maybe in a month or two. Meanwhile, I'd love to read any information about this kind of setup. Does anybody have any data about it to share?

PEACE!

[Opie Yutts]

I was wondering how my crop would perform if I change the 400w for a 150, maybe 250w HPS and add to the system something like 4 to 6 of those 168 LED bulbs, w/ more blue or red depending on the plants stage.


Hello and welcome to the forum. Thanks for your input.

I think that your idea is definitely doable. I would probably try 250W HPS from above, and then some bluish LED's around the sides. I think that if you spend enough money on the LED's the yields would be similar to your one 400W HPS. Please be sure to let us know how things work out if you decide to try LED's.

Are you German?

[luvfriday]

Here is a link to a grower on his 2nd try with the UFO, he got the maker to tweak one for him to start a 2nd grow using 70 Red/20 blue, and he currently has another experiment going on using the only competitor taking on the HID hut UFO. Granted they are using tomato plants or something but I was impressed he actually has the impressive grow log using several LED light kits.
Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting (http://www.greenpinelane.com/default.aspx)

[luvfriday]

posted below are photos and a grow diary. i dont know if this is what your wanting but it appears to be the most extensive work ive seen thus far - he observes that on his next LED proj he would req of the manuf hes working w to increase the amt of RED lights used to foster more flower development

we can do better than this kids if we all share what were doing and how its working as for me im ordering my 1st ste of OFO's this week and starting my 1st LED grow under thier currend BLUE matrix and will f/u by req that a more RED matrix be developed


Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting (http://www.greenpinelane.com/default.aspx)

oh looks like I was not the only one to find that site:) Did you order your UFO, I found out 2 days before Xmas they are totally out and the list runs into the first part of 2008

[Ziggy Stardust]

the above cited report - Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting - ends in part with this statement "im waiting for justin at HIDHUT to swap me out for a 70/20. i still believe this is a better mix...." apprerantly this is refering to a period earlier in the grow whereby he had some problems do to the lack of BLUE in the LED matrix. i did call Justin and asked him if his co. had obliged the greenpinelane.com researcher by producing the more balanced light requested. he responded by informing me that due to the input provided in this paper that the WHOLE line was tweaked to 70/20 with some changes made in the const of the UFO.

after throughly looking into this new product and looking at the DOZENS of pics, specs and charts provided by greenpinelane.com id have to reccomend the HID UFO tp all those intrested as just 2 of these in a 6x3 ft area would be more than enough to veg 6 plants. right now thier only looking at an "all around fixture" but in the future you can bet there will be - just as in HID lights - a spectrum for vegging and one for flowering.

i know the $$ is hard to swallow - especially when all you grow for is yourself but to those like me who grow for really sick people try to look at the upside:

1). MONEY - if you started growing more than a year ago you paid almost $200 for a HID ballast and if in your 2nd year youve already replaced your 1st bulb and if u bought a good one that was like $80 bucks - for a total of $160 now add an inexpensive reflector like an ECONOCOOL that was $150 - TOTAL is already $510 (and you still have to buy more bulbs every year)

2). ELECTRICITY - if your spending $300 a month in juice costs - that will go down to $50 bucks - over a year thats a $2500 savings (the cost of 4 UFOs and a few keggers of imported beer) AND remember thats just for lighting the lamps! dont forget the cost of

3). COOLING - the room during the summer and DEHUMIDIFYING (its these last 2 aspects that KEEP most cultivators out of the cycle during the summer months) ...not to mention electricity the added $$$ ...another EZ $100 a month

and i did also look at his end results and there were excellent

[Opie Yutts]

I'm tired of stats. Someone just make it so. And document it with photos.

[luvfriday]

I'm tired of stats. Someone just make it so. And document it with photos.

I was most impressed with the photos and grow logs done on nearly all LED lights on the market and some not yet on the market. I am also guessing this experiment is rather reliable as HID HUT changed the light to this guys recommendations.

Crap I am looking at the buy it now button but I want to see how that new competitor LED grow turns out.

PS- I have no clue what I am talking about, but the guy seems to know how to get his stuff growing and his 2nd UFO test with the 70/20 just got going on 12-28, while his other one for .....oh hell check it out he is saying his plants under procyon 100 doubled in size in 4 days (UFO competitor)

Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting (http://www.greenpinelane.com/default.aspx)

I would love to know your opinion Opie :)

[Ziggy Stardust]

oh looks like I was not the only one to find that site:) Did you order your UFO, I found out 2 days before Xmas they are totally out and the list runs into the first part of 2008

this is the drawback although you can prepay and get to the top of the list by maybe offering to buy a large # along w some other equipment as did our coop when we also ordered ebb and flo systems

THESE WERE SOME OF THE FINAL WORDS BY THE RESEARCHER found at Untitled Page (http://www.greenpinelane.com/ufo_light_test.aspx)

Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting (http://www.greenpinelane.com/default.aspx) ...this report is complete Opie and i would highly reccomend that you review it as it also COMPARES the cloest competitors the PROCYON 100 (at $600 w a slightly more blue matrix) and the LED Grow-Master LGM5 PRO (which apprears to be vastly cheaper although you have to wire it yourself and not anywhere as powerful using 100s of smaller weaker LEDs on seperate grids)

Blossoming continues on the center and right tomato plants. The plants have gotten pretty large. Much larger than they are supposed to be as they are advertised to be 9-12 inches. These things are approaching two feet. They're very hefty with lots of vegetative growth. The Florida Petite and Florida Basket in the center and right are blossoming the most. The Red Robin has a few but still seems to be more in the vegetative state. I've shut off the blue bulbs for a while to see if the increased red ratio will have any effect on blossoms.

Plenty of blossoms are stil dropping without fruiting, but more and more are seeming to fruit. I don't necessarily think blossom drops are necessarily a light problem. There are thousands of other reasons for this inside of course. Hey, this is my first attempt with these particular tomato varieties and using the UFO for the first time.

Overall I'm pretty happy with the performance of this light. One thing the UFO can do for sure is grow big tomato plants. I'll continue to try different nutrient formulas for the blossoming stage. To tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure exactly what this'll take and the experiments will continue. Hopefully soon, the 70/20 Red to Blue UFO will arrive. I'm hoping I made the right guess. I'd like to see if I can avoid using extra blue bulbs and have a 100% UFO grow nest time.

as ive stated befor if you can endure the price this is it maybe next year the $$$ will come down....and all the pics a person could want are there as well

[Opie Yutts]

Thanks Ziggy, I've been watching that from nearly the beginning.

Tomatoes - Yes
Big Dank Nugs - Still not convinced

[NorCal Grown]

I read through this thread and I have yet to see any solid reasons why you would WANT to use L.E.D.'s??? :wtf: Anybody see any killer L.E.D. grows? They are inefficient, dim, and have to be almost touching the plant to have any real effect. Sure you could buy $3000 worth of L.E.D.'s and grow a plant or two, but whats the point? Thats a huge waste of money, and money = energy. I think the most efficient setup would use ether a Dual 600w Digital ballast HPS or a 1000w Digital ballast HPS.

I posted this in the an other L.E.D. thread: "I really don't think LED's are going anywhere, they are not even more efficient then a CFL for Lumen output per Watt used. Low pressure sodium would be the most efficient, but not for growing. So high pressure sodium would be the next step down in a efficient light source. Maybe sulfur plasma lights will get better/cheaper soon??

Here is some Lumen's per Watt:
Candle : ~.3 (Lm/W)
Incandescent : 20~24 (Lm/W)
Halogen : 30~36 (Lm/W)
L.E.D.'s : 26-70 (Lm/W) The high of 70 is for prototype white L.E.D.'s
CFL's : 45-105 (Lm/W)
Sulfur Plasma : ~100 (Lm/W) light output VERY close to sunlight, better than any other artificial light source.
Metal halide : 80~125 (Lm/W)
High pressure sodium lamps : 140-160 (Lm/W)
Low pressure sodium lamps : 180-200 (Lm/W)"

[Blumen]

The 100 lm/W barrier has been broken by lot's of high power manufacturers for white LEDs last year (Cree/Luxeon/Seoul Semiconductor), available at stores.

[NorCal Grown]

I guess I wasn't up to date on prototype white L.E.D.'s. I looked around a bit and found the prototype white LED achieving 150 (Lm/W). The rating they gave it was VERY misleading. You might notice that it was rated using Lumen's per watt of light output, not per watt of electrical input. It was emitting 420 Lumen's at 8-watts. Witch is 52.5 (Lm/W) by my math. :wtf: They are trying to show some advancement, maybe to get some goverment funding?? Like wind and solar maybe???

[NorCal Grown]

Side note: The theoretical maximum is 683 (Lm/W).

[Blumen]

Correct, at 555nm. Which is green. Which plants need less. That shows how much Lumens help in designing a plant-light :D

[brownthumb]

I have 14 of those 168 led red/blue mixed bulbs. They are bright, but at the cost of no lateral dispersion; a 5" round array expands to only 24" @ 10' (probably the 15° viewing angle version).
My first attempt was to make a flat grid with a 2.5" gap between staggered rows of bulbs; this was a failure as even 4' away only the area directly under the bulb/array was illuminated.
So I then remounted them so each bulb was touching the 6 adjacent ones; better but only the bulbs directly over the plant were contributing.
Next was an arcade so that the arrays on the sides could be directed at the plant itself; better but the end bulbs were wasted.

My final configuration was/is a cupola affair with 10 bulbs (1680 low power leds) focused on a single plant 5" away from the face of the arrays. There are 2 arrays pointed straight down and the other 8 are individually aimed at a specific spot on the plant and physically placed as close to the top 2 as possible. The entire plant is now well illuminated and flowering strongly, how dense the buds will be is anyone's guess.

To say that this low power led application is cost effective would be a sorry joke, but clearly it is possible even if it cannot be recommended.
Understand that I have the highest possible density of low power leds in 4 sq ft that are illuminating 1 sq ft, so it is also NOT space efficient.
Anyone wanting to use leds should look at the high power ones and bear in mind that commercial panels are far too weak for effective plant growth.

[Opie Yutts]

Hey brownthumb, welcome to the forum and thanks for your input. I'm really glad to get another LED grower in here. Any chance we could see some pictures? I am looking forward to final yield.

[oldsanclem]

I have ejoyed this led thing and its something to do. Now think, if leds worked , industry would be doing it.
Industry wants the most light for the least cost. Industry wants the most light and lower replacment cost. Industry would stand to gain tillions of dollars saved. And industry still uses 48 in florsents, metal halide and hps.
Funny facts wind power, photo cells have yet to make ONE CENT. :yippee:The average loss is 14-25 cents per kwh. (thanks to the poor people trying to save money)(forget the inviromental problems)
Once again OHMS and WATTS wins, and the poor pay.
Note sky lab florsent lights, even they can not efford leds. They can, but not cost effective. Flat panel florsent lighting. Note they have a $10,000 a pound lift off weight cost:jumphappy:, even at that, its not cost effective. Mars systems cost are more and leds cant make it.
:S2:

[Blumen]

Old news, man. The latest NASA groove here (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/science/experiments/CPBF.html). :thumbsup:

[Blumen]

(Couldn't edit anymore, but here what should be added to the post above:)

In addition: I don't have any of the problems NASA has to fight with. I have gravity, so hot air rises and cooling is much more easy therefor (let alone get rid heat in space at all). I get a parcel of LED for the same money I'd get a CFL delivered for. I don't have that limited space. I could build a 1Ã?1m panel. I bet in the ISS you have to beg for that amount of space big time or pay millions. 20 Luxeon Rebel high-power LEDs (all fitting on the SIM-card of your Mobile) are able to create 3600lm, I have a cool white CFL 4" here, 3350lm. NASA isn't the quickest sometimes, they often just have to depend on tested (aka old) stuff. Changing the lighting system in ISS isn't the same like at home. Again (if possible at all) millions of $ for the sockets alone (you mentioned the freight costs).

So I do see LEDs in (grow-)space very much so :D

[Opie Yutts]

I have ejoyed this led thing and its something to do. Now think, if leds worked , industry would be doing it.


Industry is doing it. The sign industry for one. There are many cities around the US and the world who have mandated that all electrical signage must be illuminated with non other than LED light. Coming soon to a city near you.

[SnSstealth]

wow another like forum...brownthumb!!! another believer!!! check out mine man...im running 3 procyon 100s in a 2 x 8 closet...got 20 3 gal pots, 18 are jack herer x bubbleberry the rest are bag seed. 25 in all, got a few doubled up...love friday, high times article on the UFO is very good. the tests ive seen on green pine lane, by sfortier, show the procyon 100 to be awesome. he will gladly answer questions but DO NOT mention our favorite plant. he grew tomatoes and deosnt wish for any pot talk.please respect him guys, he's been very helpful for us on this LED endeavor. hopefully more of us will be starting this so we can revolutionize growing for us all.

peace and pot
whiskeytango
SnStealth


opie yutts, weedhound and rocksteady have been very helpful, we may need each others imput as we get further into our cycles

[Ziggy Stardust]

Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting (http://www.greenpinelane.com/default.aspx)

this dude is SMART and on top of the LED issue and this forum is responded to by many LED industry wireheads who are on top of the whole game ..... lotsa tech stuff...LOTS of pics...lotsa spec

theres mention of both the high watt (100 rather than the single 14 OR 28W panels) LED products UFO and PROCYLON i suggest that all those who are posting here look at the site these dudes are posting to and rethink a lot of the stuff weve been considering and reasoning. after taking a look ck out what one of em passed on to me......out of his concern and our respect im not gonna name his (unless someday he wants to be famous).

as he is the UNKNOWN i still wanna thank him and give him his props

Ziggy,

I've spent some time looking over your forum from the link you provided.

These are my opinions, but please remember I'm just learning and have a long way to go. So, my comments are based on this and what I've found out by my testing which is all public for you to see. I could be wrong and reserve the right to be!

Anyway:

Forget about the small led bulbs and Ebay 14 watt panels like Flower Forcer, Grow-tec, HTG, etc They are not efficient nor powerful enough to do the job.

The Luxeon, Cree, LedEngin, etc, 1W - 15w high powers are the only way to succeed and are 30-100 times more powerful and much more efficient than the above.

The below is how I approach my grows. If I stick to these rules. I do well.

Because of my emphasis of controlling Blue/Red ratios, none of the lights sold are perfect yet for both stages. The UFO and Procyon are great foundations right now and have the power to do great things. However, if they had blue/red adjustments they would be much better. I'm finding I will need to suplement these lights with 3 watt High Power single red or blue bulbs as needed. The UFO tomato grow journal shows this theory working well and results quite quickly in the photos.

This is also the reason I am building my own high power light. I have a lot of controls built in.


Veg Stage:

Nutrients - grow formula

Lights: 18 Hours

I, and most of the knowledgable folks that correspond with me and others I can trust for honest opinions seem to be landing on a 1/3 ratio of LED to HID with pretty decent results. So far this ratio proves pretty good if not better than HID in the Vegetative stage only.

This means if you are challenging a 400 watt MH in a veg stage contest, you would need 125W of high power LEDS run efficiently, meaning the electronics are designed to run the LEDS at top performance and temperature controlled meaning the most LUMENS per watt.

Most important - The Blue to Red ratio is heavy in blue. This is the biggest mistake I see with LED growers. They are not using enough blue in the veg stage! Possibly 50/50 red/blue to start seeds and be at 60/40 - 75/25 red/blue at end of Veg Stage. It is important here to keep a balance of red/blue for fastest leaf/stem/root growth balance. Stretch control is your key. If too much stretch, your later success is doubtful.

My findings: Root growth suffers if not enough red. Stretch happens not enough blue. Leaves are too small if too much red. Leaves are to big if too much blue. Use these indicators to adjust blue-to-red ratios.

Blossom Stage:

Nutrients: Bloom formula.

Lights: 12 hours

This is most likely a 90/10 - 80/20 red/blue ratio. Red needs to be strong. Bring the blue down until all growth stops, but maintains good leaf and stem strength. You want minimal veg growth, but maintain good plant foundation. At this point, lower the blue to stress plant slightly. This should force blossom stage and if stressed properly, good blossom performance. Once number of blossoms are satisfactory, increase blue back to that point where plant leaves and stems get just healthy looking and strong. This should be about 90/10 - 85/15. This gives me best blossoms on every plant I have tried. However, there is need for improvement. Numbers of blossoms are there, but maturing them is another matter.

Opinion: Blossom stage still needs work, HPS is still better at the 1/3 LED/HID, but I believe from what I've seen, that a lot of bad blossom performance is being caused by stretched veg growth in every LED grow I've seen. You must pay attention to the veg stage to have a good blossom stage.

Future - I also think some orange and possibly some deeper blue will still need to be added, but some high powers in needed ranges have now just come available. I should be testing some of these shortly. a touch of UVB and some IR have not been ruled out and there are good scientific arguments that these are needed. This is proven by the fact that plant growth under the sun using tinted filtered UVB/IR glass is poor in the blossom stage.


now where to from here ???

one last thing if you post there dont say nothing about no ganja weed or shit like that ....lab coats

[SnSstealth]

ziggy, dont know if you've seen, but im doing a grow right now with 25 plants and 3 procyon 100s

[SnSstealth]

Its amazing how much credit NASA gets in so much credit for their "inventions". A majority of the time they have a need and other corporations create these technologies for them. Like mylar, created by the Dupont company(along with many others). Just ranting I guess. remember that anything in space was built by the lowest bidder:wtf:

Doughboy

[SnSstealth]

[quote=oldsanclem]
Funny facts wind power, photo cells have yet to make ONE CENT.


Yeah wind & solar power don't work:postexcuseme:

people are living off of the grid just fine...

[Ziggy Stardust]

do u know how many wind turbine and how much solar and energy is sold back to utilities here in calfi....sayin it dont work dont make ya sound to 'telligent ya kno

[DoDoFoShoDoe]

So if the point im seeing here is to get the correct ammount of Red and Blue ratio during specific stages in the plants growth cycle, does this mean a grower would have to change to color scheme along with it? or would you be able to use the same set-up the entire grow. im sorry if this doesnt make sense im trying to grasp this whole LED concept.

Dodo

[Ziggy Stardust]

from what i read if you watch what your plants are doing (either streaching leaves too large or too small internode spacing) you can actually tweak your ratio and add whatever portion of the spectrum is needed to get maximum growth.

remember once upon a time there was only MH lamps available for indoor growth and look at how the industry has evolved. the author of the above cited report is now working on his own LED matrix BUT what hes doing is making it adjustable so that you can "dial up" what your plants need.

i would imagine like in all such ventures and taking into consideration the need to simplify for marketing and economic reasons, soon someone will develop 2 or possibly 4 different matrix - 2 seedlings and veg stages and 2 flowering stages one for onset to develop more flowering sites and to swell up the buds in the final stage

[SnSstealth]

supposedly the 3 we are using say the red Nms vary. and the blues are set. they did to tests with "tomatoes" too. that was an amazing plant in and of itself...lol im happy with just getting equal yield. all the talk of stronger potency and some of the stuff in the High Times article this month, well....we will see huh. and hell yeah, i wish they would've made it adjustable somehow as far as the blue/red intensity at veg/flowering. we are using these lights all the way through, just changing the time at flowering.

and ziggy, your right on point as far as everything i've read as well. people are saying they wont work cause they were testing with cheap china panels. we have 3 procyons in a 2 x 8 closet...hopin for a hella harvest...lol

[Ziggy Stardust]

i dont know if id risk the entire crop the 1st time around. its not my grow BUT if it was id partition the last 2' of it hang jjust 1 PROCYON and then hang like 2 4ooW HPS lamps over the rest. it seems like - for now theres a lot of manipulation that you need to keep up on - from the report.

....'"Red needs to be strong. Bring the blue down until all growth stops, but maintains good leaf and stem strength....This should force blossom stage and if stressed properly, good blossom performance. Once number of blossoms are satisfactory, increase blue back to that point where plant leaves and stems get just healthy looking and strong.'".

the reasearcher closes his statement by giving this opinion.

.... '"Opinion: Blossom stage still needs work, HPS is still better at the 1/3 LED/HID, but I believe from what I've seen, that a lot of bad blossom performance is being caused by stretched veg growth in every LED grow I've seen. You must pay attention to the veg stage to have a good blossom stage.'".

this we can all understand with the new lights i would think that here what we need to do is make sure they are hung at the right height. refering back to the report at.... Untitled Page (http://www.greenpinelane.com/hgl_procyon_test.aspx) the reasearcher did construct a grid to evaluate lumen dispersion at not only reccomended height but several others as well. from looking at it one can see that the optimum is at 24". now i dont know about everyonelse but what we do is keep our babies short (2.5 - 3' tall) asa result if hung at 18" above the canopy most of the nectar part of the plant will be at maximum exposure thru out veg producing maximum results.

as far as claims of better faster bigger i know that will come. what the real concern here should be is power and cooling - i.e. if i can veg w 400w instead of 1200 and flower w 800w instead of 2400ive saved 2/3 on enegry in lighting and at least 75% in cooling and of those two cooling is what should be most considered and of the most importance. ya cant grow killer nugs unless you provide optimum environmental conditions for cannabis thats like 80 - 85 degrees lights on - and the most important 15 degree (or more) drop at lights out. do you have any idea how hard that is to do in july in calif? the NO HEAT LED is what will change the entire face of indoor horticulture.

[hatch]

Turtle420, Whats Up. I read in the start of your trhead that you were working with a lighting company great news!!! You might want to add to your list of(nm) from 400 to 480 Ultra Violet, and 520 to 560 green,( they do need alittle) 640 to 720 some yellow to orange, You already know about blue and red. You need a mixing board in the resister @ relay circuits, So you can fade your on coluor for veg @ flower in all your panel's. They have 10mm leds they sould be the brightest. Good luck with your project, Good research and development is always one giant step forward for the future in growing. Hey it takes Pioneer's to step out of the box and be willing to take chances in failure to make strives forward. Good Luck, Later

[SnSstealth]

:thumbsup:It's great seeing all this interest in high power LEDs. When I started looking in the middle of last year there was very little to none. I believe with the long testing times and variables of lighting that we need as many collaborators as possible. My only caution on the adjustable lighting is during each separate test the ratio stays the same, one for veg and one for flower, ie. "10 days in to flower and there not flowering well, let me add this". Anything else would lead to confusion. After our first test is complete i'm thinking of adding dividers with diff. light ratios in each. However I'm not really capable of ordering individual LEDs and putting them together and I dont want any e-bay china lights. Supposedly HGL is going to put out a 14W cree do-it-yourself kit which would allow for some tinkering...gotta go check on the girls....

doughboy

P.S. anyone know where I can pick up a three month timemachine...lol

[hatch]

HI ALL, Ya'll need to go to http;//www.chauvetlighting.com and feel free to look at all the good light's. But on the Home page when the LDI 2007 BEST BIG BOOTH AWARD flashes click on the display, Wait for the real payer and watch the video and see the potintial and mix-ability you can get with the LED's. Later

[SnSstealth]

good info on there hatch....after this grow, when we can see what missing per se....we will be adding supplemental lighting probably...

[Opie Yutts]

[quote=oldsanclem]
Funny facts wind power, photo cells have yet to make ONE CENT.


Yeah wind & solar power don't work:postexcuseme:

people are living off of the grid just fine...

One of my dads good friends lives where there is no power, so he doesn't have a choice. Invested about $12 grand in solar and runs everything just fine. It's not perfect, like he has to turn lights off when they're not being used, but we all should try to do that.

True, he's not exactly making any money from it, but he doesn't spend money on power either, so it's kinda like making money. It's kinda funny that if he were to move 10 miles in either direction and triple, or maybe only double his initial investment, he could be selling power to the electric company. That, I think would be making money. Why doesn't everybody over there do that? Oh yeah, maybe they don't have $36,000 laying around.

[Opie Yutts]

I have ejoyed this led thing and its something to do. Now think, if leds worked , industry would be doing it.
Industry wants the most light for the least cost. Industry wants the most light and lower replacment cost. Industry would stand to gain tillions of dollars saved. And industry still uses 48 in florsents, metal halide and hps.
Funny facts wind power, photo cells have yet to make ONE CENT. :yippee:The average loss is 14-25 cents per kwh. (thanks to the poor people trying to save money)(forget the inviromental problems)
Once again OHMS and WATTS wins, and the poor pay.
Note sky lab florsent lights, even they can not efford leds. They can, but not cost effective. Flat panel florsent lighting. Note they have a $10,000 a pound lift off weight cost:jumphappy:, even at that, its not cost effective. Mars systems cost are more and leds cant make it.
:S2:

Wow, I just read this again.

What a load of negative horse hockey.

Man I hate half-truths and misinformation presented as indisputable fact. When you're spewing all this ridiculous nonsense, it might behoove you to keep in mind that industry is using LED. A lot. All over the place. More and more. Read up a touch before leading the sheep. They can't help it, some of them might believe you.

[tomtomgrow]

sorry...new to this thread...think it has amazing info...two questions...one, can one use led in s.o.g and second, is a mix of hps and led better for yeilds then hps alone???

[denial102]

Wow, I just read this again.

What a load of negative horse hockey.

Man I hate half-truths and misinformation presented as indisputable fact. When you're spewing all this ridiculous nonsense, it might behoove you to keep in mind that industry is using LED. A lot. All over the place. More and more. Read up a touch before leading the sheep. They can't help it, some of them might believe you.


haha yeah, nasa is using it, along with the mercury lights..

[hatch]

Yes, The spectrum would be in a closer range if you add some colour with LED's to help supplement light with your HPS. Later

[oldsanclem]

IF leds were a usable , industry would have had them years ago.
They have more to gain than a pot grower, Brillioins of $ would be saved IF they were usable. Yes there are a few desk lights that have leds, but, does industry use them. GE,Siemens,AG,Silvainia(sp) have some of the best engeers going. I can only hope pot growers can prove them wrong. Wind power, solar cells (subsidies pay 14-25 cents per kwh to cover cost rich get richer poor get poorer:wtf:),bio fuels (consumes more power than they net rich get richer poor get poorer:wtf:, battery power (1919 2007 80 miles to a charge almost 90 years later net gain 0,, ZERO net:wtf:) , Someday they will make,leds output to cost ratio:thumbsup:.
Believe me I am all for new things, my system is automated, remote control.
This thread is how old and not yet has one person come up with watts/grams/month
NOTE if you do make it work, you will make more from GE, Seimans than you will ever make from growing pot. :)

[Blumen]

I don't wonder why e.g. philips isn't too keen of LEDs as a general lighting...they sell lightbulbs, CFL and HID, which need replacement...over and over again. Other industries don't switch over because of high initial cost (lose money now, stocks go down, unhappy stock owners, big no-no).
The initial cost is the same problem that home growers have isn't it? So there is a bit more to it than just "they don't use it, it can't be good."

It has been done here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CtROw3uiVg) with a couple of mistakes (no training, "killed" LED plant with HPS harvest water shortage?), but still.

[SnSstealth]

Im not tryin to pitch my thread on someone elses...but dude i AM growing with LEDs...they have made 2 now for growing, and all our traffic lights here are LED...the indoor lighting at the hospital my wife works at are.......yup LED. so dont talk about them not getting integrated into society....and its only happening more

[Opie Yutts]

sorry...new to this thread...think it has amazing info...two questions...one, can one use led in s.o.g and second, is a mix of hps and led better for yeilds then hps alone???

Yes you can use LEDs for SOG.

Yes a mix of HPS and LED is better than HPS alone, but only if you don't sacrifice some HPS watts to do it. If you need to, then stick with HPS for another 3 years.

[Opie Yutts]

IF leds were a usable , industry would have had them years ago.

Oh my fucking goodness. I can't believe I'm reading this crap again. You are just plain wrong in your assumptions. Have you ever studied LED's? Have you ever picked up a recent book, or taken a recent LED class?

Once again folks:

INDUSTRY IS USING LEDs NOW!!! There would not be soooo many companies using LEDs if it did not make financial sense. Look dipstick, the reason they weren't being used years ago is because they were not invented yet. It's kinda hard to use something that has not been experimented with, studied, worked with and changed so that it is viable, until it becomes viable. Revolutions in the industry that make LEDs usable and economically viable have only come about in the past couple 3 years, so of course they weren't real popular years back. Neither was a flu vaccine or air conditioning, but that doesn't mean it's senseless to use it today. Get an F'n clue.

[SnSstealth]

if ignorance is bliss................

[hatch]

Oh my fucking goodness. I can't believe I'm reading this crap again. You are just plain wrong in your assumptions. Have you ever studied LED's? Have you ever picked up a recent book, or taken a recent LED class?

Once again folks:

INDUSTRY IS USING LEDs NOW!!! There would not be soooo many companies using LEDs if it did not make financial sense. Look dipstick, the reason they weren't being used years ago is because they were not invented yet. It's kinda hard to use something that has not been experimented with, studied, worked with and changed so that it is viable, until it becomes viable. Revolutions in the industry that make LEDs usable and economically viable have only come about in the past couple 3 years, so of course they weren't real popular years back. Neither was a flu vaccine or air conditioning, but that doesn't mean it's senseless to use it today. Get an F'n clue.

Hey brother thats why you have those headaches!! High Blood Pressure!!
Don't worry about the hater's, They will want to be your best freind in a short bit-of-time, When they are way behind.
Hey that rhymed. ( Opie ) Check out the new trick you learnt'me.
Where is a thread we can bullshit? I want to ask you some stuff about your headaches. Later

[hatch]

Hear is a Qoute from a PHILIPS Rep.(In LED MAG.) LED COMING SOON!!! Aquarium, Horticulture, General Lighting.

WE have been Working on our LED arrays for the past 3 years to ensure we have the correct OUTPUT for each application. Qoute:Qoute, KURE'WAKE!!!! Kuwacha crack. Later

[SnSstealth]

IF leds were a usable , industry would have had them years ago.
They have more to gain than a pot grower, Brillioins of $ would be saved IF they were usable. Yes there are a few desk lights that have leds, but, does industry use them. GE,Siemens,AG,Silvainia(sp) have some of the best engeers going. I can only hope pot growers can prove them wrong. Wind power, solar cells (subsidies pay 14-25 cents per kwh to cover cost rich get richer poor get poorer:wtf:),bio fuels (consumes more power than they net rich get richer poor get poorer:wtf:, battery power (1919 2007 80 miles to a charge almost 90 years later net gain 0,, ZERO net:wtf:) , Someday they will make,leds output to cost ratio:thumbsup:.
Believe me I am all for new things, my system is automated, remote control.
This thread is how old and not yet has one person come up with watts/grams/month
NOTE if you do make it work, you will make more from GE, Seimans than you will ever make from growing pot. :)


OK its not grow lights but industry is using LEDs and and it will explode this year. The innovations needed have arrived.

a simple search uncovered this:

Lighting Industry Survey Confirms LED Lighting Market Growth

By the end of 2008, LEDs are expected to be commonly used in offices, parking garages and residential outdoor applications

DURHAM, N.C., JANUARY 28, 2008 â?? Cree, Inc. (Nasdaq: CREE), a market leader in LED solid-state lighting components, announces the results of an independent survey on the adoption, deployment and benefits of LED lighting. The survey, taken at the recent 2007 Hong Kong International Lighting Fair, validates strong global growth for LED lighting applications, confirms awareness of the energy-efficiency benefits of LEDs and indicates that the adoption trend should continue through the end of the decade.

Key survey findings include:
* Nearly three-quarters (72 percent) of respondents have witnessed a growth rate in excess of 20 percent for LED lighting applications in their businesses over the past six months.

* Almost two-thirds of respondents (63 percent) believe LED lighting will comprise more than 50 percent of their sales or installations by 2009.

* Future growth in the LED lighting market is expected to come from a mix of applications â?? with street/parking (20 percent), residential indoor (17 percent), retail/display (17 percent) and office (15 percent) cited as the leading opportunities.

Survey respondents represent top decision-makers at lighting manufacturers who attended the 2007 Hong Kong International Lighting Fair â?? the largest lighting show in Asia and the second largest in the world. Nearly half the respondents to this survey were from outside of Asia, reflecting the surveyâ??s global reach.

â??The survey results present us with a clear and positive picture of growth patterns and expectations from leaders in fixture design and manufacturing,â?� said Greg Merritt, director of corporate marketing, Cree. â??The survey shows an increasing demand for the high-quality, energy-efficient LEDs that Cree currently provides and is continuing to develop.â?�

â??The general illumination market is at a tipping point,â?� Merritt said. â??Creeâ??s industry-leading XLampÃ? family of high-performance cool- and warm-white LEDs is uniquely positioned to serve the needs of lighting manufacturers who are ready to capitalize on this growth.â?�

[SnSstealth]

Wind power, solar cells (subsidies pay 14-25 cents per kwh to cover cost rich get richer poor get poorer:wtf:),bio fuels (consumes more power than they net rich get richer poor get poorer:wtf:, battery power (1919 2007 80 miles to a charge almost 90 years later net gain 0,, ZERO net:wtf:) , Someday they will make,leds output to cost ratio:thumbsup:.


WOW! battery power has had "ZERO" advancement in 90 years huh? So whats this thing attached to my cordless drill that works alot better than the older (same company) one I bought 2 years ago? and what does "80 miles to a charge" mean?

As for the people using solar, wind and waterfed(almost forgot that one) power, the rich dont get paid by them so they dont become quite so rich. yes they sell what they buy for a profit GASP! How is it you lose money(sorry "get poorer") by not paying for elec.?

[SnSstealth]

Hear is a Qoute from a PHILIPS Rep.(In LED MAG.) LED COMING SOON!!! Aquarium, Horticulture, General Lighting.

WE have been Working on our LED arrays for the past 3 years to ensure we have the correct OUTPUT for each application. Qoute:Qoute, KURE'WAKE!!!! Kuwacha crack. Later

If they've spent three years on it, then i'd say a good two years was spent on class 1's. while they could have played with spectrum, the low output levels though might make it tough to translate to now but i'm sure they'll figure it out.

"they've gotta have more forms, I mean...they are scientists"...lol(half-baked)

[hatch]

If they've spent three years on it, then i'd say a good two years was spent on class 1's. while they could have played with spectrum, the low output levels though might make it tough to translate to now but i'm sure they'll figure it out.

"they've gotta have more forms, I mean...they are scientists"...lol(half-baked)

The problem they are having trouble with is the UVB, Which is harful to humans.

They are trying to produce it in a un-harmful way!!!

I, Personally would like to get them to put UVB in the Grow Lights, And when you are in the room, Just flip a switch and turn off the UVB. BUT and that's a big word, Were talking about many Law Suites in the making.

You can get a low watt UVB from a reptile Lamp, But you don't need to be in the grow room when it is on!!! You will see a big response it the Trich. count.

This Light is purple right? This purple , which is in the 200-270nm of the spectrum, which is the ultra-violet to blue, Useful Radiation (PUR).

Metal Halides and High Pressure Sodium Lights have ALL the UVB blocked. And Us as grower's need the UVB, POLITIC'S and HUMANITARIAN'S-RIGHTS-ACTIVIST looking for a free ride, Suing the Corporations is the big hold up, That wouldn't be GREEN, Hurting people with radiation. But it would be DAMN GREEN for us eh!!

Hey I don't want any more radiation, I already have Cancer, But I think I'm smart-enough to turn the Fucking Shit off when I'm around it. "That's my store and I'm sticking with it"!! Later

[Opie Yutts]

Hey brother thats why you have those headaches!! High Blood Pressure!!

Where is a thread we can bullshit? I want to ask you some stuff about your headaches. Later

OK hatch, for you...
http://boards.cannabis.com/cannabis-com-lounge/148996-opie-s-bullshit-thread.html#post1802729

OK, for others and myself as well.

[SnSstealth]

not a purple light hatch. its 3lights, each with 16 blue and 40 red...so we have a damn good spectrum....is blacklight the right UV?

[Opie Yutts]

Hey SnS,

Have you studied at all the effects of UVB light on making nice big nuggets? I've just recently began looking around at this, and couldn't remember from my LED studies if they made LEDs in this nm. I wonder 1) How much UVB really does for weed farming, and 2) what would be involved in incorporating nms outside the visible spectrum using LEDs?

[denial102]

IF leds were a usable , industry would have had them years ago.
They have more to gain than a pot grower, Brillioins of $ would be saved IF they were usable. Yes there are a few desk lights that have leds, but, does industry use them.

LED's are usable, FACT. You need to get this, and your other FACTS right!

:rastasmoke:

Peace,
Denial

[Ziggy Stardust]

uhhhhh you dudes are way off the reservation. is there anyone out there who has started another grow? are there any updates??

[SnSstealth]

LED's are usable, FACT. You need to get this, and your other FACTS right!

:rastasmoke:

Peace,
Denial
thanks denial, we determined her didnt know what he was talking about LONNNG ago..lol

seriously...you should read up more before spewing....ziggy, check out my thread, all LED grow lookin lovely...no stretching, in fact, i would say they squat more than HID...short node spacing....i have a good feeling these will be yummy
good point opie, ill look into the UVB thing. i read it helps alot too...let ya know when i find something

[hatch]

not a purple light hatch. its 3lights, each with 16 blue and 40 red...so we have a damn good spectrum....is blacklight the right UV?

I now not just purple, But the Ultra-violet to blue green, witch is in our UVB, UVA of the spectrum. Is what they don't have down to a Science, That's where I was headed with the purple.

And yes your light throw's of a awesome purple-ish glow!!

And by the way the company that makes your light is already back-ordered. Man I think people are starting to see the LIGHT. (No fun intended, NOT, HEHEHE). Later

[Opie Yutts]

uhhhhh you dudes are way off the reservation. is there anyone out there who has started another grow? are there any updates??

Perhaps it might help if you told me why I'm so far off track here. As far as I can tell, I'm standing right in the middle of the reservation.

Just telling someone they're wrong, without anything to help back it up, is certainly not going to get someone to see the light, and it's not going to help teach them the right way either.

[Ziggy Stardust]

im not the one trying to enlighten those who are forever awash in their own darkness...am i? anyways its good to see you back

[Ziggy Stardust]

how are your babies doin?

[SnSstealth]

they are doing great....check the thread;)
:smokebong:
whiskeytango

[Opie Yutts]

Where's the reservation again?

[HARDDON]

Here is the skinny on these LED for growing your tomato plants gang...

You need at least 4 panels of 96 LED's (BLUE) and this works awesum for fresh cut clones.

FOr anything else, veg or flower stage, the LED setup will work but you will get very slim harvests.

LED's will be the future for almost all lighting in the future (say 3 years) but for growing tomatos and getting the most out of your efforts, stick with what is proven and tried and tested.

Right now, they will not produce big fat thick tomatos.

[Opie Yutts]

You need at least 4 panels of 96 LED's (BLUE)...Thanks for the help, that clears it up.

Just a couple things though, would that be the 3 watt or 1? Or I guess it could be 96 each 10 watt LED's, or perhaps the 500mc ones. And I guess the dispersal angle for those is 60 degrees. Oh wait, I suppose they could be 360 degree LED's, but then again they could be the 6 degree ones. And I guess your thinking of 6 inches distance from the plants, but then it could be 36 inches, or 2. Was that the 460 or the 440 blue, or maybe the 412? Or were you going for some carotenoid, thus the 480?


LED's will be the future for almost all lighting in the future (say 3 years)
I agree, that sounds about right.

[SnSstealth]

lol......i dont know about that many man...ours are growing great...i dont think we are lacking at all in power or light amount, just spectrum.....IMO
:smokebong:
whiskeytango

[SnSstealth]

Here is the skinny on these LED for growing your tomato plants gang...

You need at least 4 panels of 96 LED's (BLUE) and this works awesum for fresh cut clones.

FOr anything else, veg or flower stage, the LED setup will work but you will get very slim harvests.

LED's will be the future for almost all lighting in the future (say 3 years) but for growing tomatos and getting the most out of your efforts, stick with what is proven and tried and tested.

Right now, they will not produce big fat thick tomatos.

signature:
Any posts made by me are purely fictional in nature and by no means is anything I say to be taken seriously. I do not grow or condone the growing of anything not legal. Any and all pictures I post are pictures widley available on the internet and any discussions I am involved in are purely hypothetical or are commentary in nature and should not constitute advice or be considered advice to assist in activities that are deemed illegal.


Is it illegal to talk about growing tomatoes?:eek:...lol

Db:smokin:

[Opie Yutts]

i dont think we are lacking at all in power or light amount, just spectrum...

I hope you aren't lacking in anything. I want to see a nice fat haul at the end of your grow. I guess we'll find out at harvest.

[SnSstealth]

as do we........lol
:smokebong:
whiskeytango

[Opie Yutts]

For those wanting to pulse your LED arrays, why? Plants don't have eyes to trick.

[physicsnole]

For those wanting to pulse your LED arrays, why? Plants don't have eyes to trick.

https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/tsharkey/web/My_papers/Tennessen%20Bula%20and%20Sharkey%20Pulsed%20light% 201995.pdf

Even better efficiency this way.

[Opie Yutts]

Well, what I got out of that is they found x amount of light does the same thing as pulses of light that add up to x amount. How is that more efficient? The whole idea of pulsing light is to trick eyes into thinking a light is on all the time when it's not. Plants don't have eyes, therefore they will not be tricked, and when the light is off the plant knows it's not getting light at that point. Less light = less yield.

[SnSstealth]

I never quite understood that either. arent we trying to get the most photons possible to hit the plant. only thing i could figure is they're saying the plants could only take so much light at one time (kinda like a kid drinking a 2 liter...slowly).but I dont think thats right either. I realize solid state and all, but is turning on/off so many times going to hurt the leds?

Db:smokin:

[SnSstealth]

maybe i didnt quite get it, but regular photosynthesis occuring at 50mu, and it said in order to pulse and get the same effect, you gotta pulse them at 5000mu...so instead of long slow electricity usage you get super spikes every 200ms? wouldnt that strain the hell out of your equip? or maybe i need to read that paper again, minus a few bowls...heh
:smokebong:
WT

[Ziggy Stardust]

ROFLMAO! thats what kills me about this place. all ya gotta do is say it and it becomes gospel - just like jesus did! aint magic cool.

weve all seen pics reports graphs and tests at

Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting (http://www.greenpinelane.com/default.aspx)

proving that in veg stage HIGH POWER LEDs are the new way all that needs tweeking is the spectrum in flower and how long do you think it will take the slide rule guys to figure that out?. just dont waste your hard grown dollars on grossly UNDER POWERED kits your better off buying papers and bics and why are some of you always trying some kind of unproven slight of hand instead of doing whats proven to work do what works THEN little by little tweek...i mean unless youve got PhDs in things like botney energy flux and biology why try to trick anything?

right now the industry is responding to us the best thing is for us to interface with active testers and and lab guys to help them develop what we need visit greenpine look at the data read thier fourms and participate and contribute. we will get what we want faster. as it stands now both the main products UFO AND PSYCLON are being improved almost weekly and even then the manuf are open to upgrading our buys

Together
Everyone
Accomplishes
More
TEAM...get it?

[physicsnole]

so instead of long slow electricity usage you get super spikes every 200ms? wouldnt that strain the hell out of your equip?

Exactly right SnS. You overdrive the LED's for a shorter period of time. The LED's are fine with this, as long as they are pulsed for the correct duration so they dont burn out (Most LED sompanies give pulse time and rate for overdriving LED's). The paper proves that with 100us pulses, photosynthesis remains 100% of that with constant light. Were not trying to trick the plants by "flickering" the lights, merely providing increased amount of light over a shorter amount of time by overdriving them for 100us pulses.


but is turning on/off so many times going to hurt the leds?

LED's can turn on in 200ns. There is no harm done to the LED's by pulsing them, it actually increases life expectancy (if overdriven than life expectancy stays same).

Opie- Photosynthesis only happens so fast(but still very fast)...its not like the more light you give it the more it will grow(there is a linear relationship between amount of light provided and plant growth, up to a point). Plants require certain amount of photons per unit time to attain cellular reactions for light cycle, sugar creation, ect.

this is from the paper:
Much of the light used for photosynthesis by leaves within canopies is from sunflecks (Pfitsch and Pearcy 1989; Pearcy 1990). These sunflecks range from milliseconds to minutes in duration and their photon flux densities can be as bright as full sunlight.

So plants undergo photosynthesis naturally with these "pulses" of light.

Also from the paper:

We measured photosynthesis under light/dark times of 15/135, 7.5/142.5 and 1.5/148.5 us which required instantaneous pulse PFD of 500, 1000, and 5000 pmol mp2 s-', respectively, to achieve an intcgrated PFD of 50 pmol m-2 s ' .

Basically this confirms what you guessed Opie, that there is still the same amount of light reaching the plant by pulsing the lights at a greater power.

The photosynthetic apparatus integrates the pulsed light and uses it as effeciently as continuous light

Thus saying pulsed light for photosynthesis is just as effecient at continuous light.

So say we have 200 5W LED's (as my plans are). By pulsing them at a 10% duty cycle, the actual power used y the LED's is only 100W compared to the original 100W. However we are providing the LED's with more power (from 1000mA to approx 2500mA), so the power used would be approx 1/5 of the original, saving 800W of energy. The plants still received the required amount of photons for photosynthesis, but with way greater effeciency by pulsing the LED's.

Of course I do not take every word of this paper and assume it is true, I am merely showing how pulsing LED's could be used for greater effeciency. I created a simple 555 timer circuit and hooked up 7 LED's to it and pulsed them at the required specifications (100us on, 900us off, 5kHz), and recorded the power consumtion, and indeed there was an increase in effeciency (by that I mean less watts used by the LED's). The effeciency does not come from giving the plant less light, but form giving the LED's a smaller total energy consumption. Hope Im was able to clear some thing up without confusing anymore people.

Look at the top left of pg 265 of that site....nice graph showing increased photosynthesis with increased photon density (amount of light in the pulse).

[physicsnole]

Sorry for such a long post...didnt realize it would be so long...but still helpful info

[SnSstealth]

ROFLMAO! thats what kills me about this place. all ya gotta do is say it and it becomes gospel - just like jesus did! aint magic cool.

weve all seen pics reports graphs and tests at

Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting (http://www.greenpinelane.com/default.aspx)

proving that in veg stage HIGH POWER LEDs are the new way all that needs tweeking is the spectrum in flower and how long do you think it will take the slide rule guys to figure that out?. just dont waste your hard grown dollars on grossly UNDER POWERED kits your better off buying papers and bics and why are some of you always trying some kind of unproven slight of hand instead of doing whats proven to work do what works THEN little by little tweek...i mean unless youve got PhDs in things like botney energy flux and biology why try to trick anything?

right now the industry is responding to us the best thing is for us to interface with active testers and and lab guys to help them develop what we need visit greenpine look at the data read thier fourms and participate and contribute. we will get what we want faster. as it stands now both the main products UFO AND PSYCLON are being improved almost weekly and even then the manuf are open to upgrading our buys

Together
Everyone
Accomplishes
More
TEAM...get it?

hmm....isnt that exactly what me and doughboy are doing? And just to let you know, we are very much in contact with greenpinelane and HGL, so...
whiskeytango

[physicsnole]

SnS I think you should call your thread THE ULTIMATE LED TEST GROW...lol

[physicsnole]

This Light is purple right? This purple , which is in the 200-270nm of the spectrum, which is the ultra-violet to blue, Useful Radiation (PUR).

Hatch- UVB is outside the visible range of light, so it would have no color(to us but to the plants yes).

[physicsnole]

So Opie whats your opinion on pulsed lighting now? just wondering

[Opie Yutts]

Check your thread. I think I understand. As long as short bursts of current that would normally overdrive and burn up the LED, are not going to hurt the LED at all, then maybe we got a winner.

[physicsnole]

http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/150174-perfect-led-grow-light.html

[buyahalan]

:cool:Buyah guys,

I'm going to China just for that reason to improve the wave length and to make the diffused light lost. If I can get more of the light to the whole plant. Please place a list of what you'd want to have to make a one stop shopping experience, easy.
I've got the shipping and Handling already setup for direct drop ship.

I'll be looking for Dealers to retail the LED when I get back. www.anextsmartstep.com is under construction as we speak. I'll also need to know from all of you what you'd want me to also carry so I can supply all of your products from a single shop.

Special Note* The Blue LEDs don't last as long as the rest of the LED's. I would recommend that if the factory could make a separate blue bulb from the rest. You'll see a bunch of LED's for sale due to this, like the HPS & HM bulbs they go out after 3 seasons? It's the same with the blues they only last 6000 to hrs. I'd recommend a change then. I guess the rest of the Dealers forgot to mention this when they sold you your previous panels?
I'll be selling replacement bulbs just for this application? If you own a flat panel of blue and red LED's don't throw it away or sell it? Just get a new Blue LED for the budding stages.

[Opie Yutts]

Your link is broken.

[physicsnole]

I'm going to China just for that reason to improve the wave length and to make the diffused light lost.

Now are you going to China, or you are going to use "china" panels?

[brownthumb]

I have designed products for years with Chinese engineers, no need to physically go there for a product.

[physicsnole]

I have designed products for years with Chinese engineers, no need to physically go there for a product.

Very true....lol

:smokebong:

[Gazzeruk26]

Hey all great thread.

I have abit of a noob questions, i've been looking into LEDS for a few weeks now and i'm on my first grow. just the only plant in a little cupboard. with a big bright hot light, not sure what type it is.

all this was given to me by a friend who is a grower, said it would give me chance to try some hydroponics out.

before i get into hydro i have a simple question.

Would these LED lights be anygood for 1 plant. or should i consider maybe 2 panels.

168 LED Plant Grow Light BULB Hydroponic tent bud 240v on eBay, also Hydroponics, Plants Seeds Bulbs, Garden Plants, Home Garden (end time 01-Mar-08 14:13:26 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/168-LED-Plant-Grow-Light-BULB-Hydroponic-tent-bud-240v_W0QQitemZ200202477800QQihZ010QQcategoryZ43555 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
1x 225 LED Plant Grow Light PANEL Hydroponic Lamp plug on eBay, also Hydroponics, Plants Seeds Bulbs, Garden Plants, Home Garden (end time 01-Mar-08 01:15:00 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1x-225-LED-Plant-Grow-Light-PANEL-Hydroponic-Lamp-plug_W0QQitemZ190201145680QQihZ009QQcategoryZ43555 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Sorry if this is advertising. but really i just wanna know if the 225 led panel is better than the 168 and would i need 1 or maybe 2 of these lights for 1 plant?

they also say there hydroponic lamps. does it matter that my plant at the min is in soil? i'm only about 2 weeks into growing and its a clone not from seed.

thanks for your help/input :)

[SnSstealth]

Hey all great thread.

I have abit of a noob questions, i've been looking into LEDS for a few weeks now and i'm on my first grow. just the only plant in a little cupboard. with a big bright hot light, not sure what type it is.

all this was given to me by a friend who is a grower, said it would give me chance to try some hydroponics out.

before i get into hydro i have a simple question.

Would these LED lights be anygood for 1 plant. or should i consider maybe 2 panels.

168 LED Plant Grow Light BULB Hydroponic tent bud 240v on eBay, also Hydroponics, Plants Seeds Bulbs, Garden Plants, Home Garden (end time 01-Mar-08 14:13:26 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/168-LED-Plant-Grow-Light-BULB-Hydroponic-tent-bud-240v_W0QQitemZ200202477800QQihZ010QQcategoryZ43555 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
1x 225 LED Plant Grow Light PANEL Hydroponic Lamp plug on eBay, also Hydroponics, Plants Seeds Bulbs, Garden Plants, Home Garden (end time 01-Mar-08 01:15:00 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1x-225-LED-Plant-Grow-Light-PANEL-Hydroponic-Lamp-plug_W0QQitemZ190201145680QQihZ009QQcategoryZ43555 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Sorry if this is advertising. but really i just wanna know if the 225 led panel is better than the 168 and would i need 1 or maybe 2 of these lights for 1 plant?

they also say there hydroponic lamps. does it matter that my plant at the min is in soil? i'm only about 2 weeks into growing and its a clone not from seed.

thanks for your help/input :)

Please see http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/149145-led-grow-1st-grow-56w-max-northern-lights.html
thats a grow with 4 225 panels and ill let you form your own opinion. your problem w/ those lights is the 5mm dont have the wattage in/wattage out power that they need to grow healthy plants.

theres no such thing as a hydroponic lamp(at least that I know of). Thats another selling point(lie). have 20 plants thriving under LEDs in dirt right now. see sig.

Db:smokin:

[brownthumb]

G26
I have 14 168 led spots = junk for growing ($450 lesson)
read some, this is all over many forums

[SnSstealth]

YO,

Havent read the whole post but heres a guy w/ the "14w" kit. he had 660's added. etc. but seems like hes doing ok. any opinions?
Cannabis and Marijuana seeds :: HomeGrown420 - 140w LED Grow (660/630/470/420) (http://www.hg420.com/showthread.php?t=39466&page=10&pp=10)

Db:smokin:

[physicsnole]

Looks like the 660 and 420nm made a big difference. The buds look decent size, especially for an LED grow.

[Opie Yutts]

I don't want to seem negative, but they look a little sparse to me. Maybe it's just the variety. I don't understand why the arrays are so far away. You need about 3 off those panels per plant to do anything, and they need to be right next to the plant.

[SnSstealth]

I agree opie, theyre a bit small but, like you said there is not enough/bad placement problems.

Have we seen a grow w/ these kits minus the 420/ 660?

db:smokin:

[Gilfaethwy]

Hey guys,

I am fascinated by the whole subject of LED grows. I've been reading SnSstealth's log, and my theory is that the reason why he has been successful where others have met with such difficulty is this: Lumens.

Most of the products out there marketed as "LED Grow Lights" have no light output ratings at all. Most of them are also garbage.

Please bear with me on this post, I know its pretty long, but I am going somewhere with it :)

I wish the Procyon 100's used had a lumen rating. It would make comparisons and calculations so much simpler. Because I don't know exactly how much current is driving each of the Cree X-lamps, I can only guess at the light output. Based on their specs (as available from the manufacturer) they put out anywhere from 80 to 200 lumens, depending on how much current is used to drive them.

If one assumes an average value of 140 lumens / lamp that gives a total output for a single Procyon 100 = 140 * 56 = 7,840 lumens. Call it 8,000 lumens to simplify math. My guess is that the true value is no less than 6,000, and no more than 10,000.

Now, given SnSstealth's 8*2 = 16 square feet grow room we have seen that 3 * 8,000 = 24,000 lumens seems to be adequate for that area. That gives us an average of 24,000 / 16 = 1,500 lumens/ square foot.

That's where I was going. It looks like 1,500 lumens/sq. ft. is a good baseline for planning a LED lighting system.

Of course that's all assuming that the output is in the right frequencies. Basically I'm saying one needs to have a lighting set-up put out the frequencies, in the right proportions, reaching at least the intensity calculated here.

Does anyone have any critiques or thoughts on this reasoning? And thank you again SnSstealth for providing numbers that I could base my theorizing on!

[Opie Yutts]

Your reasoning sounds fine to me.

[brownthumb]

lumen and PAR are defined terms
an led array designed on a PAR basis will have very low measured lumens

I agree that SnS is doing better than most (all ?) and it is due to the intensity.

FWIW
a Sunmaster 600W MH conversion bulb has 50,000 lumens and 195 PAR watts, ~ 1/3 of its output is of use to us

[Gilfaethwy]

Sorry guys, I just noticed a very significant flaw in my logic. It's a really silly goof.

I've been thinking about the possibility of White LEDs as grow lights, which seems reasonable if one looks at the activity spectra of Green Plant Photosynthesis and compares it to the emission spectra of most White LEDs. They are quite similar, with peaks in roughly the same places.:cool:

As such, I goofed and substituted lumen ratings using the data for the white Cree XR-E lamp in the calculations for the light output of the Procyon 100's. And of course, the Procyon's use the Colored Xlamps, and they have different specs, and different lumen ratings.

Brownthumb, I know what lumens are, they're the SI unit of luminous flux, equal to 1 candela * steradian. But what do you mean by PAR? Do you mean Photosynthetically Active Radiation? Or something else? PAR is used as name for too many things in lighting :)

As for what my goof implies about the numbers, I think it means that the lumen numbers are far too large, which seems astonishing. Trouble is, I'm reading through Cree's spec sheets, and they don't specify lumen output at high driving current for the color parts, just at the relatively pedestrian 350mA.

I'm currently working on researching more and trying to post revised calculations.

Hmm, based on most specs, the lumen output seems to double when going from 350ma to 700ma with minimal increase when going up from 700ma to 1000ma.

[Opie Yutts]

Nothing wrong with white in my opinion. Everyone keeps telling me I'm crazy, but white light seems to work pretty well for fluoros and HID. Just as with those, LED's have many different whites. Just make sure you use the right ones for the individual stages of growth.

[bonzo00420]

what does everyone think about a 250w-hps supplemented by 2(maybe 4-all conceptual) of the 14w's kits along with 80w of fluorescents for a closet grow where heat would be a problem? i heard the 14w's are equivalent to about 50w-if compared to hps- so that should all work out to about 430w give or take some... you think that it would produce like a 400w-hps- or do u think its all a waste? but heat is really the main issue and why i would have to supplement the other light into the grow if i were to do so-- cause the 250 alone would keep the temp in the high 70's...so a 400 would be out of the question..
:rastasmoke:
let me know what you think stealth /opie/anyone else with any thoughts on this -- would really appreciate it...

:stoned:

[SnSstealth]

you guys rock!!! i am so glad we found people as interested in this as we are...(bongrip) any ideas on how we can test these procyons, we will gladly do it and post...we got a little $30 meter that tests lumens, moisture, ph and something else, im high and not at the room...lol it read 5000 lumes at about 24in....i think if we get closer than 1ft to the plants, they seem to stop growing, but im not sure if its from all the pruning i did...i cut them down in two sessions, a week apart...lights or cutting? dont know which one slowed them down more, but will play more with the distance as we go...do know that 2 ft is to far, thet reached, so ill measure the lumes at about 16in today and let you guys know.

bonzo, how big is the closet? sound like a lil too much to me...IMHO..why mix all 3? just wondering




:smokebong:
whiskeytango

[bonzo00420]

bonzo, how big is the closet? sound like a lil too much to me...IMHO..why mix all 3? just wondering
:smokebong:
whiskeytango

Well its 2x3x7- and the reason is that i have the floros....and the 250 -- and i wouldnt want to do just 2 girls- maybe 5 if im lucky- so id use the floros for the side lighting and the 2 14w on a nice penetrating angle from above... and maybe just use them all during flowering as a booster??-- i dunno -- i just would like to max it out -- don t want to waste anything if im gonna go for it... i want to yeild like a 400 i guess to..lols without the 400?? does this make sense.lols

i put a 400 in there a long time ago and with the it heavily fanned - was still in the 90's so its just not an option to move up- im afraid with the 250 alone it just wont have the juice...

let me know your thoughts..

:rastasmoke::stoned:

[FakeBoobsRule]

Sean
You are not posting a hotlink to the site but 2 out of 3 posts have the website them. You are bordering into spamming for that website. If you continue to post the website in 66% of your posts, you will earn an infraction for spamming.

[turmoil]

I was looking around the web and found two 'instructables' regarding wiring up high powered LEDs thought you guys would be interested.

Circuits for high powered LEDS (http://www.instructables.com/id/Circuits-for-using-High-Power-LED_s/)

Making a small High Powered LED grow light (http://www.instructables.com/id/high-power-LED-grow-lights-M.k2/) This guy does do some questionable things with his resistor though...

:jointsmile:

[physicsnole]

Those are a nice find:thumbsup: that would be nice if you were driving 10 or so LEDs but i think we have to use another power supply if using alot more, like 80 or 100. I was thinking a computer power suppy unit. look at the attachment.

[veggii]

if ignorance is bliss................

yes is'nt it .... BLISS

[veggii]

Nothing wrong with white in my opinion. Everyone keeps telling me I'm crazy, but white light seems to work pretty well for fluoros and HID. Just as with those, LED's have many different whites. Just make sure you use the right ones for the individual stages of growth.


Ya know opie i've been pondering this white light and it's purpose
everything has a purpose! then i thuoght about how everyone use's white for reflecting colors maybe that is white's job
reflecting the colors so they can travel farther and penatrate
farther into plants ,,just a thought:D

[sweetgreenbuds]

hey hey there my fellow led fans
so i've been following the whole led thing with avid intrest. (nearly pop a woodie thinkin of the possiblities.) so it has inspired me to start off another grow:thumbsup:
so after a bit of research the led's i ve decided to go with are the luxeon rebel and 1 type from ledengin. with such massive concern about lumens i figure that driving 200w should take care of that issue.
these leds have a meal mount and can be placed dirctly onto a heat sink. i have contacted a company who specialise in early design inovation. i think this is a brilliant innovation but probably wont raise a life changing amount of capital so instead what i am doing is once i have the finished the design i will post the full spec and cost. this will just be for all the leds on a pcb and drive hardware and with these i will post instructions for case construction and cooling fan and people can just buy the pcb and assemble (will also design a 110v but the manufacturer is uk based) the manufacturer is very helpful and i will post his contact details and im sure that adjustment to the array would be no problem for customising options. i'll leave with a list of the led's i've chosen. been lucky enough to find a supplier who will allow me to select from specific led bins to hit exact spectrums
ok so here's the list of luxeon rebel driven at 2.1w
w/l qty
440/445 5
460/465 8
465/470 8
480/485 6
495/500 7
545/550 5
613.5/620.5 5
631/645 24

and the ledengin driven at 3w
660 20

cheers for listen to my lil rant, just tryin to do my bit for the cause
peace out :jointsmile:

[veggii]

hey sweetgreenbud looks kool i stumble on this company
Heatron.com - Innovations in Heating and Lighting (http://www.heatron.com/)
they might beable todo the same kinda stuff
I have been seeing a lot of companies springing up with
custom led array production. It cause the Leds need proper
drive circuits ,and also need to be efficient so they have to be custom made per Led Light design.
I am thinking of building a 60 watt array with a advance sign pro
led driver as it will fit into my design. most drivers /mosfet's are
bigger and won't fit I have been getting pretty confused on
building my drive cicuit the more research i do the more confused I am getting maybe you can shine some light on it for me.
I want to string 12 5watt leds on the 60watt advance driver will this work?
do i need to add some more stuff?? will it even drive 12 on a string
a saw somewhere it was sayin 3 on a string??
maybe one of these? lm3407
http://www.national.com/cat/index.cgi?i=i//223
gotta run check ya l8trs

[veggii]

hmmm ..he ponders white light
realization of RGB-LED white lighting has many challenges
A requirement in white light applications is that lamps of the same type have the same color point.The color point may change with time or temperature,but lamps sharing the same history must all change in the same way.For example,it is unacceptable if all fluorescent lamps in a office are not the same color.it is also unacceptable if a LCD monitor displays a different white color point
at different points on the screen.
LED characteristics are far less reproducible than conventional lamps.
LED's vary in lumen output and wavelenght,and in their dependence
on temperature and time.Since mixing one or more red,green and blue LED's is creating white light,varition in one color(or one led)
can have a significant effect on the color point.In addition uniform
spatial mixing of the light from a small number of high power LED's is difficult to achieve.Great care be taken to ensure that color uniformity over the spatial light distribution from the LED lamp is at acceptable levels.
So the white light can be made from RGB, duplication will not be easy.

[veggii]

I wonder if this light will grow plants its red blue green
ColorBlast 12, Color Blast, LED Lights, Buy Color Blast, Rent Color Blast (http://www.kineticlighting.com/rental_feature_colorblast.php)

here's a link to ledmagazine lots of info:
LEDs Magazine - Technology Channel (http://www.ledsmagazine.com/Drivers)

I f anyone wants to help me out I am still in need
I am trying to string 12 5watt LedEngin Bulbs
http://www.ledengin.com/products/5wLZ/LZ1-00R205.pdf
to a Advance Driver
Advance Transformer Ballast - LED Drivers - signPRO® (LED) (http://www.advancetransformer.com/products/led.jsp?pbid=32)
any help will be appreciated

[oldmac]

Nothing wrong with white in my opinion. Everyone keeps telling me I'm crazy, but white light seems to work pretty well for fluoros and HID. Just as with those, LED's have many different whites. Just make sure you use the right ones for the individual stages of growth.

Opie,
Had the same thought awhile ago, but my testing w/ white LEDs last year was less then stellar. Plus LED whites are not rated like fluros in degrees Kelvin, but rather an x/y plot. Hard to figure which is which.

My solution was to combine Red Cree XR xlamp LEDs with T5 fluros.
I've replaced a 600w HPS with 160w of LED and 198w of T5.
I'm 1/2 way through 2nd try with it and it works great!

I see no reason why the correct warm white LED could not replace the furos.

[veggii]

Oldmac Hi! yes some Leds are rated in kelvin look here:
LedEngin, Inc. (http://www.ledengin.com/ledengin_products.html)
I'm sure one could order a better color temp 2700k/6500k
:rasta::rasta::rasta:

[oldmac]

Hey veggii,

Your right, in the last year we are starting to see Kelvin and terms like "warm" and "cool" white applied to LEDs.

Unfortunately for me the warm whites I picked to use for an experiment did not work well and had me confused......untill I saw the device tested @ the LED museum and saw the spectrograph. A real neg spike at the blue range and min far red. It was makeing most of it white in the orange amber green ranges, not the broad curve of a fluoro.

They have made and will continue to make great improvements in high power LEDs especially the whites that currently have so many applications. Spectral analysis is a must.

[Pinkfloydfan1973]

Cree, Inc., a leader in LED solid-state lighting components, has announced that Guangzhou Multi-Cell Semiconductor Lighting Technology Co., Ltd. (Multi-Cell) is installing energy-saving, solar-powered streetlights based on Creeâ??s XLamp XR-E power LEDs. Multi-Cell is demonstrating its new XR-E LED-based streetlight product with a 20-light project in Guangzhou, China.


NEMA - Cree XLamp® XR-E LEDs Chosen for Solar-Powered Streetlights (http://www.nema.org/media/ind/20070309b.cfm)

Not spamming here... just thought I'd drop some info... Always figured that when they started replacing street lights with LEDs things would start getting very interesting for growers. GO CREE.

[veggii]

those flow magic inline leds are the same design I made.:wtf:

Agro LED Inline (http://www.flowmagic.nl/index.php/Agro_LED_Inline.html?s=p_1&p=464)

[physicsnole]

Hey check this out. i think your right. the bottom seems to serve as the oxygen and carbon dioxide exchange area, and photosynthesis on the top.

[Melskid]

I got my Procyon 100 last Monday. I'll post pictures of some of my ladies as soon as I get my kid to get off the bong and take a picture.

[physicsnole]

hey melskid-
is there anyway you can take apart your procyon and take pictures of the circuitry? ive been dying to see it but can not find any resources online about that. i think there it 4 screws that take the two side panels off. then you should be able to get inside. im just trying to get an idea how the procyon has its power management hooked up.:rastasmoke:

[kutchc]

is there anyway you can take apart your procyon and take pictures of the circuitry?

Got mine today from fleabay. :D Took it apart and snapped some pics.. Could not take it all the way apart due to some technical difficulties, meaning the led light circuit board was glued to the aluminum heatsink so could not pry it off and take a look at the back of the board.

Now... Question is where do I put the pics? Do not see where I can include it here.

When I reassembled it did break off one piece but plugged it in and still works. Not sure what the piece was for, maybe a thermostat? Probably can't call them up and say "hey, lookie what I broke, can you fix it?"....

Back on topic.. Very very nice buds SnS.... :rasta:

[Opie Yutts]

Whites work just fine. You can get any color white you want in an LED, and there are many that are rated in kelvin. If you carefully read the specifications for a white made by a reputable manufacturer you will see that like other forms of lighting, LEDs have a dominant color, or color temperature, and a spectrum of others. This spectrum is the only reason to frown on whites for plant lighting. It is wasted energy, like the energy that is wasted in an HID light. That doesn't mean the plants won't grow, it just means that the most desired color is not the dominant one. Most people believe that colored LEDs don't have a spectrum, but that's far from true. It's just that the spectrum in single color LEDs is not as varied as it is in whites. For example a 660 nm LED has a spectrum from about 620 to 700, and it is wasting energy in the same sense that whites do.

One thing that we can do with LED whites that we can't with other forms of white light is change the color. Again look at the specs, and notice that the LED is rated to be any color from, for example 3000K to 10,000K. Again this is only the dominant color, and it all depends on what kind of current you supply, plus a few other less significant factors.

[kutchc]

Much as I don't like those sites, here they are.... gotta like being a noob..
Pictures of Procyon 100 innards (http://s302.photobucket.com/albums/nn86/kutch2001/?special_track=nav_tab_album)

Hope you don't mind me posting this in your thread SnS...

On one of the pics of the board (#1 I think) put a tag on the thing I broke. Pic was taken before it got broken so if anyone has ideas on what i can do to fix it that would be good. It is the thing with two wires attached to it.

[physicsnole]

Thank you sooo much:thumbsup: that is awesome. thats just what i needed. could you take a picture of the writing on the capacitor the big round black thing on the bottom left. im just want to assure to myself that what i am doing will work and im not gonna waste alot of money. thanks you thank you thank you:thumbsup::hippy::rastasmoke:

[oldmac]

Hey Opie;

Whites work just fine?
Wish I had talked to you a year ago. Could have saved a little money and a lot of time.

Whites have come a long way baby, a very good example is the Cree XR-c warm white.
On paper it has good specs; 2,600-3,700 degree K. In it's spectral output it has a spike at abt. 440-450nm (output of die) and second larger curve (phospher reaction) that does go up 630-640nm.

Many LED's in the warm white, spike at 375-425 and have a reaction curve that stops short of red. Makes it's white enrgy in the orange-amber-green. No usable blue very little usable red. Yet it is a "warm white". They can even have Kelvin numbers that look good.

Even with the cree's, I want to see a independent spectral graph of them before I invest in trying them. Fell in that hole once.

Hope you can understand what I was trying to say, sometimes this is all too much for an old man.

[Opie Yutts]

Much as I don't like those sites, here they are.... gotta like being a noob..
Pictures of Procyon 100 innards (http://s302.photobucket.com/albums/nn86/kutch2001/?special_track=nav_tab_album)

Hope you don't mind me posting this in your thread SnS...

On one of the pics of the board (#1 I think) put a tag on the thing I broke. Pic was taken before it got broken so if anyone has ideas on what i can do to fix it that would be good. It is the thing with two wires attached to it.

Thanks a bunch for those photos. I know it takes a little time and effort to publish those. Sorry I don't know what the broken thing is. Is it the little black thing with 2 black wires? Can you get a close up or tell us what the lettering on it says? Glad the light still works though.

[Opie Yutts]

I certainly understand.

Check out this white about 1/3 down the page, CCS100A. It has a spike in blue and red, almost exactly where peak chlorophyll activity is. Looks like 465 ad 645. I'd like to see someone explain why this white is not good for growing plants. If I could only choose one LED to grow with, this might be it. http://www.bocaflasher.com/pdf/photometricdata-2006-05-22.pdf

[kutchc]

Great buds SnS!!! Makes my mouth water looking at it.

Please let me know if I should make a new thread.

However, info for the capacitor is as follows (my camera didn't take good closeups, not even good enough to read).
White stripe down the middle with 2 black rectangles in it
Left hand side of strip, top to bottom with light upside down
450V
220uf (funny looking u or upside down h)
722006 (M)


450V
220uf (funny looking u or upside down h)

Right hand side of strip, top to bottom with light upside down
HC
M CE (M is bolded and in a single line box with rounded corners)
+105 C

HC
M CE (M is bolded and in a single line box with rounded corners)


Regarding the thing I broke.
Hard to say really (think need a magnifying glass which don't have) but best guess:
3 lines
F1l t1
70-0 C
D6 (not sure if 5,6, or 8. kinda looks like 6)

There was also powder in the hole when i took screw out and also looks to be some type of metal strip embedded in that plastic.

[BlueBong]

I sense I may not be around much longer to say this, so I might as well get it over with:

Why not try to find a volume discount on one type of white LED and see if you can build a stronger white light for the same price as all the fiddly 10-different-wavelength plans? So what if it's a few watts hungrier than the others for the same effect?

I wouldn't mind experimenting with all white LEDs in the future.. (like perhaps one all-white grow vs. a multi-color fixture of the same cost to build) I just won't be posting about it on this forum, most likely. Too much bitch-fighting around here. (not specifically in this thread) If you have any other good places to discuss new LED options, hopefully I'll see you there when the time comes.

Used to be on a forum for some seed bank, that got rolled over into some other larger forum eventually. I don't remember it being quite so bitchy as it is around here.. but hey, it's been years. Anyway, good luck with the LEDs. Rated a bunch of these threads up for ya while I could.

[oldmac]

I certainly understand.

Check out this white about 1/3 down the page, CCS100A. It has a spike in blue and red, almost exactly where peak chlorophyll activity is. Looks like 465 ad 645. I'd like to see someone explain why this white is not good for growing plants. If I could only choose one LED to grow with, this might be it. http://www.bocaflasher.com/pdf/photometricdata-2006-05-22.pdf

Opie,

I took one look at that ccs100a, and the (LED) light bulb went on over my head.
That is a RGB based white....it has no phosphar coating. Three dies (red,green,blue) produce the spikes w/ corresponding curve. This would be far superior to hitting 'specific' light wave length.
I see no reson why this one should not work.

When I get a chance latter I hope to look further at the rest of the specs for that ccs100a.

Thanks for engaging me in thinking about this.
Ideas are starting to flow in my mind...gotta slow it down and vape a bowl.

[oldmac]

I sense I may not be around much longer to say this, so I might as well get it over with:

Why not try to find a volume discount on one type of white LED and see if you can build a stronger white light for the same price as all the fiddly 10-different-wavelength plans? So what if it's a few watts hungrier than the others for the same effect?

I wouldn't mind experimenting with all white LEDs in the future.. (like perhaps one all-white grow vs. a multi-color fixture of the same cost to build) I just won't be posting about it on this forum, most likely. Too much bitch-fighting around here. (not specifically in this thread) If you have any other good places to discuss new LED options, hopefully I'll see you there when the time comes.

Used to be on a forum for some seed bank, that got rolled over into some other larger forum eventually. I don't remember it being quite so bitchy as it is around here.. but hey, it's been years. Anyway, good luck with the LEDs. Rated a bunch of these threads up for ya while I could.

Yo BlueBong;

I really hope you don't leave. I'm new here too, and have been feeling my way around; been readin' more then postin' and have mixed feelings but have hope for the exchange of knowledge.

I was active on an other MJ site, in LED discussions for a few months. Problem was too much of the crap "China" panel questions and such. It seemed everyday more and more people where asking about so-called "LED grow lights" that where shit or someone was humping and spamming some crap porduct. There wound up being more mis-infomation then usable dialogue.

Funny when someone talks about the "perfect" LED light, it really should be a white light. And it should be full spectrum white light....evrything the sun has to offer. But part of the economy of use with LED is the ability to tailor WL nm. Actually the white LED Opie just referenced contains a spectral graph that really shows one LED putting out two nice red/blue spikes. Or check out LedEngin 10w LED in both RGB and RAGB.

Maybe we should start another thread?
Have you done any LED experiments so far Blue?

[BlueBong]

I haven't messed with LEDs yet, beyond trivial use. The only LEDs I have laying around pre-date the availability of 1w and above LEDs. Totally useless to the discussion, in other words.. just some random Radio Shack junk.. although I can make some nifty "eyes" with two reds and an old watch battery..

If I do a normal grow using LEDs, I'm thinking about 1 Procyon with a pair of 2-lamp 2x- or 4x-overdriven T12 P&A 4-footers in a slightly larger than 4'x4' space.

I have no money to spare right now and I'm bone dry here, (and in a lot of pain) so anything I do will be the next time I get some spare cash. I thought about making 2' and 4' fixtures (similar in dimension to the typical simple boxy T12/T8 1-light or 2-light fixtures of the same length) out of the best white LEDs I could get my hands on once I have the money.. but that may be some time off yet. Still have work to do to my car, my truck, and my house.. but in time, I'll do the white LED experiment.

I want to say the place I used to visit was Heaven's Stairway.. and I think there was an old forum there before it got folded into overgrow.. but I haven't kept up on "weed society" since those days, so I have no idea what the name of the place really was. I could be completely and embarrassingly wrong on that one. It's irrelevant, anyway. Been years now.

I came here thinking it would be nicer to deal with only people who smoke, since some of the other places I've discussed weed on were full of "DARE kiddies" and "DARE 20-somethings" who just had to tell us every day about how we're all bad people and should go to jail.. but it seems like every other day some argument is breaking out in SnStealth's thread, for example.

I think I'm annoyed because, while I admit I have some pretty toxic views on the human race, I was kinda hoping a forum full of fellow stoners would go some way towards quelling my growing rage against the species.. I didn't think coming here would help reinforce those toxic views. (there seem to be some decent people here, they're just drowned out by all the shouty angry ones)

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on what's available in white LEDs and spend some of my idle time on fleshing out the idea a bit. Not just design, but how to test different setups at the same time.

[veggii]

hey melskid-
is there anyway you can take apart your procyon and take pictures of the circuitry? ive been dying to see it. im just trying to get an idea how the procyon has its power management hooked up.:rastasmoke:
:wtf:

[veggii]

Got mine today from fleabay. :D Took it apart and snapped some pics.. Could not take it all the way apart due to some technical difficulties, meaning the led light circuit board was glued to the aluminum heatsink so could not pry it off and take a look at the back of the board.

Now... Question is where do I put the pics? Do not see where I can include it here.


When I reassembled it did break off one piece but plugged it in and still works. Not sure what the piece was for, maybe a thermostat? Probably can't call them up and say "hey, lookie what I broke, can you fix it?"....

Back on topic.. Very very nice buds SnS.... :rasta:


"hey look this piece broke how do I fix it ,,and can it run without the piece safely You don't want to burn it up !! ???
:rasta::rasta::rasta:
" must have 50 posts to attach pics to post"

[veggii]

I haven't messed with LEDs yet, beyond trivial use. The only LEDs I have laying around pre-date the availability of 1w and above LEDs. Totally useless to the discussion, in other words.. just some random Radio Shack junk.. although I can make some nifty "eyes" with two reds and an old watch battery..
man... I have been looking n looking for some of those "eyes" :D

[oldmac]

BlueBong;

Little 5mm LED's do work and have applications now. I think they can do things the hi-power LEDs can't...like a shelf that has only 16" clearance. I have a 2'x8' shelf that I use for transplanting my clones or seedlings into RW blocks. I veg them under 5mm panels until they are 8-12". Works just as well as fluro, and I use 198w vs. the 420w fluro.
Plus I made my own 5mm panels heavy on the blue for my clone/seed trays.

BTW: I can not recommend enough IceCap fluro ballast if you like to over-drive tubes.
Holy crap a T5 4' goes to 85watts! AND big plus; opens use of regular T5 bulbs and there is a greater K's to choose. I digressed.

Now to those "eyes". Did you ever make stickies?
A few years back I got a few thosand cheap LED's in multi-colors, alot of reds and blues. I got small magnets and batteries and shipping tape. Gathered up my grandkids who where in HS and about 20 of their friends, and made over 2,700 stickies. Then took them all to town hall and had them sticky the ugly steel sculpture there. Great fun, but got in a shit load of trouble with my daughter, son-in-law, and a bunch of parents.

[physicsnole]

:wtf:

call it education veggi. i am in no way going to reverse engineer the procyon in any manner, i simply wanted to learn (hmm not learn, ive already learned all this in physics, but more reassurance that im not gonna fuck up and blow 400W of LEDs) the fundamentals of power supply as my array is going to require a much larger power supply. all i wanted to see in the pic was the components used (was wondering if they used an inductor or not), so i have somewhat of an idea where to start. I have a completely different thermal management plan than the procyon, completely different circuit, different LEDs, different wavelengths, different ratios, so I am in fact creating a unique array.

[Opie Yutts]

I sense I may not be around much longer to say this, so I might as well get it over with:

... I just won't be posting about it on this forum, most likely. Too much bitch-fighting around here. (not specifically in this thread)... I don't remember it being quite so bitchy as it is around here..

The bitching around here seems to come and go, kind of like the tide. Don't forget you always have an ignore button, both for this forum and your brain. This forum has its problems, but it's kind of like the USA. Sure it sucks, but it's still the best.

[BlueBong]

I know I have an ignore button. I even mentioned it once in SnS's LED grow log, but it got deleted with the random arguing, whenever someone got around to cleaning it up.

The problem is, there's at least one mod I'd need to use it on in addition to some normal users, and boards don't generally allow you to put mods/admins on the big iggy. I'm using my mental ignore button on that one.

[veggii]

hey blu
ya gotta remember on any public forums there will be Jerks.
I call them "pissing contests" It is best not to enter these contests
becaue they are like "PISSING IN THE WIND" Just ignore them

[Opie Yutts]

hey blu
ya gotta remember on any public forums there will be Jerks.
I call them "pissing contests" It is best not to enter these contests
becaue they are like "PISSING IN THE WIND" Just ignore them

Ha. That's a good way of putting it. There are jerks and assholes in every aspect of life, just like there are occasionally some decent people. This will happen no matter where we go or what we do. There's not a whole lot we can do about it, and trying to change it ends up getting piss on our legs. I've been really angry at this forum a couple times in the past, and specifically a mod or two.

If you think it's bad now, you should have seen how extremely unfair some mods were before we got an infraction system, and some other things ironed out a little. I got so pissed I took nearly a year off from this forum, and when I came back things were not perfect but they were much better. One blessing you can count is the fact that we no longer live in a time where it's perfectly fine for a mod to ban someone "for any or no reason". (Notice the quotes.)

I can empathize with you. I believe that at some point I have felt very similar to the way you (BlueBong) are feeling. If you go through life bothered too much by the negative or idiotic things people do, it will adversely affect the quality of your life. There is so much negativity and idiocy that you cannot avoid it unless you are a hermit or stranded somewhere. I know it's hard, but we need to constantly strive for patience, understanding and love or we'll all go crazy real fast. If that doesn't work, then I go into ignore mode. If that doesn't work, well I'll just say the next steps may be illegal.

[devilgoob]

When you use red and blue LED's together, don't the two spectrums cohere? I believe it creates a bell curve between the blue and red spectrum. It follows the theory of RGB light, you mix them and get white, you mix red and blue, you get a purplish-red (at least with LEDs and their high red to blue count).

The plants do use more than one wavelength, but can they survive on one wavelength? It depends, I hear that once light enters the plant material, it hits Chlorophyll A and then B or something (could be backwards on that one) and that the wavelength of the light could change during that. Also blue and red LED's aren't one wavelength, they are a combination of wavelengths of almost the same color, like red LEDs are 600-670nm wavelengths, that are all in different ratios, with the peak output of wavelength 627nm(on average).

I think you can grow with only one color..blue or red, but the emerson effect is like a car upgrade. Red makes the plant grow, blue makes it grow, but if you combine them like numbers and those numbers are photosynthetic rates...then red is 5 rate and blue can be 5.....so you would think both together would be a grow rate of 10, but it's actually probably a 12-15 grow rate. It's the emerson effect (thanks physicsnole, I believe).

[physicsnole]

When you use red and blue LED's together, don't the two spectrums cohere?

no LEDs create non-coherent light. check it out

" LED- a semiconductor diode that emits incoherent narrow-spectrum light "- from wikipedia

[devilgoob]

NASA fucking lies!!!!! lol. Where the crap did I see the chart of the cohering LED's?!!! Grrrrr.

Good thing they don't though.

Physicsnole!! You're incredible! You are going to be a world record holder for grams/watt/month! I can't wait until people who think LED technology will be good enough in 5 years see this! :thumbsup:

I get crap all the time in a chatroom talking about LEDs.

[physicsnole]

i truly hope so

[devilgoob]

If pulsing light works on tomatoes, then I assume cannabis is not too much different besides it's photon requirement.

I mean jeez, that paper that I read said that by pulsing the light that it was 27 times more efficient than a continuous output of light.

[jabzab]

If pulsing light works on tomatoes, then I assume cannabis is not too much different besides it's photon requirement.

I mean jeez, that paper that I read said that by pulsing the light that it was 27 times more efficient than a continuous output of light.

I would like to see this paper. Doesn't sound right...

[physicsnole]

https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/tsharkey/web/My_papers/Tennessen%20Bula%20and%20Sharkey%20Pulsed%20light% 201995.pdf

[oldmac]

https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/tsharkey/web/My_papers/Tennessen%20Bula%20and%20Sharkey%20Pulsed%20light% 201995.pdf

Thank you for that link Physicsnole, that is great.

I wish I could understand it all, but I see some very interesting things, like 668nm being the best wavelength.
Also big gains in efficency if you hit pulsing right, screw it up and it will cost ya. Your one smart young man, now get to work on it all.

oldmac

[jabzab]

That paper says that "in no case were equal numbers of photons used more efficiently". Now, when you pulse, there's going to be less photons in total than continuous.

The conclusion tries to tell you that pusling is not as good as continuous, and the idea that it is stems from the misinterpretation of the LUE. Yet, devilgoob saw 2700% and misinterpreted it.

The final sentence summing up the whole thing starts with "although there is no advantage to providing photons in pulses".

[physicsnole]

i think they mean the efficiency of the photons being absorbed by the plant. Im looking into pulsing for energy saving reasons, since energy is only required 1% of the time compared to 100% of the time. Yes the current will have to be raised 2-3X higher so that will increase the power used to about 2-3%. In the graph it shows that photosynthesis occurs at the same rate (100%) as long as the pulse is less than 100us.


The response of photosynthesis to photon flux density (PDF) was the same when the light was delivered in pulses as when it was delivered continuously, providing that the frequency was in the range of kHz.


the relative photon requirement calculations shows that the photon requirement in pulsed light is 100% of that in continuous light

so the paper based its research around determining if photon efficiency was higher when pulsed, and i did some reasoning of their research and came to the conclusion that if photosynthesis occurs at the same rate when using alot less energy, then why not use this to our advantage???

[jabzab]

i think they mean the efficiency of the photons being absorbed by the plant. Im looking into pulsing for energy saving reasons, since energy is only required 1% of the time compared to 100% of the time. Yes the current will have to be raised 2-3X higher so that will increase the power used to about 2-3%. In the graph it shows that photosynthesis occurs at the same rate (100%) as long as the pulse is less than 100us.





so the paper based its research around determining if photon efficiency was higher when pulsed, and i did some reasoning of their research and came to the conclusion that if photosynthesis occurs at the same rate when using alot less energy, then why not use this to our advantage???


If you want to take graphs and not bother to read the caption, and ignore conclusions, go ahead.

[physicsnole]

read the paper again, and if you still disagree with me, read it again. in fact keep reading it until you realize what the captions and conclusion are really talking about. i don't know what else to do to try to explain this to you without getting to technical, i don't know how far in calculus you got so i don't wanna waste time spewing out intense mathematical calculations that nobody will understand. I can assure you that i understand the math and physics talked about in that paper and that it does still apply for our purposes. maybe we wont get a 99% increase in efficiency, and maybe 1% duty cycle isn't the most efficient for growing, but its a start, and thats what im hopefully going to find out.

[jabzab]

Let's have a look at the graph again, with the caption. You see how it says increasing photons per pulse, and the total amount of photons emitted remained constant?

If you have a light on constantly, lets hypothetically say it emits 100 photons per second.
If you have the same light on half the time, it will obviously only emit 50 photos per second on average.
So say if you wanted the light off half the time, but want 100 photons per second, you could get two of these lights, or drive it at a higher current, which corresponds to giving off 100 photons per second.

If you have a look at the graph which shows relative luminous flux vs forward current for CREE XE-Rs, you need more than twice as much current to double the light output.

Conclusion: It's less efficient to pulse.

I can't make it any simpler.

[devilgoob]

It's not the photons you put out, it's how they're used.

Photosynthesis isn't continuous, it goes in steps, so when you pulsed light at 5khz, then I assume in the mean time they are still using the light the pulse gave them while the light is in the duration of the off cycle. Or they are recycling the light...as in sunflecks. :D

It's been proven with tomatoes...........lol.........

physicsnole wouldn't be screwing with hundreds of dollars of equipment and designing circuits if he didn't know what he was doing.

n00bs that come in here without reading up or going off other's opinions need a life, but after physicsnole is done with this and you see the results YOU will become the n00b that wants to be like him.

PLUS If you'd read the chart....it's 4.6 umolc02m2s1 for continuous light and just as much with the pulsing BUT at a certain pulse duration. I don't get why posting a graph that you can't understand has anything to do with being knowledgeable.

[physicsnole]

think about average power used from AC instead of instantaneous DC power during those pulses. since there are capacitors and inductors in the power circuit the pulsed energy is taken from them, and then the AC "slowly" gives the power back, making the average AC power used lower. indeed there is still alot of testing needed with pulsing. i couldn't tell you one PWM frequency or duty cycle that works, cause i havent done it yet. And on the cree graph the derivative of the line for the white/blue looks constant past 250mA, however i am sure that it tapers off at a point, as most components do. this max point will have to be determined with testing. if we can reach the saturation point of photosynthetic quantum yield by experimentation then we can see if the LED array or whatever other light source we use produces "too much" light, in which we can then pulse the light to reach the saturation point, but not exceed it. to tell you the truth pulsing might not bring any advantages to the table; if the LEDs cannot reach the saturation point even when overdriven. But if they can reach tose saturation levels then we can limit the use of the LEDs (on time) to save energy. The theory is there, just needs to be tested. oh and pulsing is not less efficient, it is just as efficient as continuous light. Finding the right frequencies of PWM and flux could prove to lead to a nobel prize. one thing is for sure, plants do not need continuous to perform photosynthesis at the same rate as with continuous light.

and the fact is this is not a simple topic. we can put it into simple words, but that just destroys the value and information the theory provides. if you still dont believe me, fine, the test will prove who is right and "wrong"

[physicsnole]

http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/88/1/158.pdf

Blackwell Synergy - Cookie Absent (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1365-2486.2005.00988.x)

http://www.biophysj.org/cgi/reprint/16/1/93.pdf

http://www.ecaa.ntu.edu.tw/weifang/led/360204hs.pdf

MAKE: Blog: Super efficient grow light (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/03/super_efficient_grow_ligh.html)

Annual Reviews - Error (http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev.bb.06.060177.000245?cookieSet=1)

if you only read one read this one:

Blackwell Synergy - Cookie Absent (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1469-8137.1984.tb04152.x?cookieSet=1)

[jabzab]

I made it as simple as possible, but you still don't understand. I'll leave you to it.

[jabzab]

Scrap that, I think physicsnole does actually understand the point I was trying to make now. devilgoob, you've proven you don't have a clue

[physicsnole]

im glad you realized that:thumbsup: thank you for understanding i understand where u come from

[Opie Yutts]

I understand that jabzab understands that physicsnole now understands that jabzab understands that physicsnole has a clue.

I've always understood that.

[Opie Yutts]

Reading back, I now realize that I misunderstand.

[hearseking]

lol these comps with there number statistics and 5c+= 67 who cares what they say the results are in the crop! thatS what i want to see:thumbsup:

[Roborev]

I thought you may be interested in this site in England.
I spoke to them and they say they will make up any panel you wish.
Your source for everything LED based - Eco LED Lights UK Home Page (http://www.ecoledlights-uk.com/servlet/StoreFront)
I am following your experiment with interest

[hearseking]

wow they want alot for thoes damn things

[Weezard]

wow they want alot for thoes damn things

Aloha.

Quite a lot, considering the fact that they are almost useless.
Better off saving up for a light that works, i e UFO, Procyon, DIY, etc.
Just my opinion, based on tests.
:smokin:I could be wrong.

Weezard

[oldmac]

Weezard;

Add to your list of working hi power LED grow lights:

TI Smartlamp pro-bloom. Uses 300 watts and looks like it
will work very well.

[Weezard]

Weezard;

Add to your list of working hi power LED grow lights:

TI Smartlamp pro-bloom. Uses 300 watts and looks like it
will work very well.


Mahalo, O.M.

Unfortunately, I gotta bad case of budget blinders.
DIY is a PIA, but antisocial insecurity sets my limits nowadays.
Just ordered another round of 5Watt Ledengins.
Little at a time.
Too impatient to save up and just smart enough not to use plastic.:)
Perhaps I should start a thread for the next light, n stop cluttering up other folks threads?
Could call it "Bubba re-invents the wheel," yeah?:)

Aloha,
Wee

[catslab]

Aloha,

TI uses lotsa leds, 150.
I'm trying to spare some money to buy some leds, but it's not bout antisocial security for me, it's the banks... God, never try to buy a house before selling the old one, or you'll get rapped by bank !

Anyway, I got time to read and plan.

One of their lamp (TI) is round 260w consumption, the other more like 300W although one can see 450W on the sticker of the lamp, but I wonder what's the total PAR watts.

I plan staying with 2 to 5W leds, the ones over 10W are too expensive by the lumen, at least for me. But things go fast in technologies. I might have to readjust in a few months.

Take care

[guapogrower]

The test is definitely in the results for sure.

I have been looking into the couple of leds available for growing and the only two that are even worth looking at are the Procyon 100 and the Smartlamps. The rest are all cheap shit.

Of the two the TI-Smartlamps are the best. They are the most powerful and they are the best at growth and flowering cause they have more than just red and blue leds. I was speaking to a commercial greenhouse guy who says they are the only ones that the commercial growers are using -- tomatos etc so it should be good for other stuff ;)

There is a great little hobby site for growing with LEDs called Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting (http://www.greenpinelane.com) which is worth following for anyone interested.

They just started a tomato test with the Smartlamp which should be interesting to follow. Not sure how many stores sell these lamps yet, but you can always buy them online from the company at growrevolution.com

[xxxdout]

Thinking about a Procyon 100 here. 100 watts, talked with one of their reps, it does 50k lumens, red and blue with little to no green, covers 10 sq. ft.:smokin:

[Weezard]

Thinking about a Procyon 100 here. 100 watts, talked with one of their reps, it does 50k lumens, red and blue with little to no green, covers 10 sq. ft.:smokin:


Hi Eggstout.:)

I'm sure you've seen SnStealth's Revenge of the LEDs thread.:cool:
And his two previous grow logs.?
Worth reading.
The proof is in the budding.:)

Aloha,
Weezard

[Opie Yutts]

I thought you may be interested in this site in England.
I spoke to them and they say they will make up any panel you wish.
Your source for everything LED based - Eco LED Lights UK Home Page (http://www.ecoledlights-uk.com/servlet/StoreFront)
I am following your experiment with interest


Hey Roborev, welcome to the forum. We'll see about them making any panel I wish. I emailed them and asked for a price on a 50 watt 735nm panel. I imagine it would be several thousand dollars.

[Weezard]

Hey Roborev, welcome to the forum. We'll see about them making any panel I wish. I emailed them and asked for a price on a 50 watt 735nm panel. I imagine it would be several thousand dollars.

Well, didja ever hear from these "snake oil" folks? :)

Inqireing minds want to know.:jointsmile:
Weeze

[tophead]

I've been reading threads about l.e.d. My thoughts on all this is get your veg time done with alot of l.e.d, and about 1200 lumens fluorescent. When it's time to bud em out, blast em with about 600 hps more. I'll let yeall know how it goes. Trying with soil on 1st run of this project, and hope to move to bubbleponics with whatever tweaks to the light system I come up with. Your plants like the radio. Dont ask me exactly why, maybe soundwaves keep soil just right for roots? Take it easy guys

[stonemonkey55]

Hey guys, I didn't have the chance to read through this thread but I have two 2 x 4 foot closets and want to replace my T5's. What setups, vendors, etc etc do you guys recommend? Sorry if I am asking a redundant question but I am at work and cannot freely look at this thread, any help would be much appreciated!

[cannakeeper]

Veg with the T5 in one closet and bloom with a 400 Hid, cooltube and inline fan. If odor is concern then add a carbon filter. Check Elitehydro.com can get all the stuff for under $450. digital ballast, cooltube, hps bulb, elf carbon filter and eclips in-line fan.

[stonemonkey55]

cannakeeper, thanks for the advice. What I really wanted to do was replace my lighting fixtures with the LEDs. There is a lot to read with certain vendors saying to stay away from certain vendors and it's tough to figure out what is legit and what isn't.. Any advice what brands, companies are best to look at for LED lights? When I do google searches, the UFO seems to come up a lot, any good?

[passthepeace]

hey whats up? noobage.
just wondering what you guys would think of this?
Procyon Depot :: Purchase (http://www.procyondepot.com/purchase.htm)

peace

[tastykushbuds]

Plant was a tasty Kush-Sage and very potent strain created in Santa Cruz, Ca. I purchased a PAR38 RED 80 LEDs and placed it under one 1gl baby during the flowering process with an added high output florescent (AWESOME). The light failed miserably compared to a nice HPS glowing upon her. I felt bad because she turned out to be a b to b+ grade (waste of time). Plant looked cool while budding. Buds didn't develop properly or fast enough and the plant morphed slightly. Much less glands than her twin sisters...

I haven't tried any of the UFO's or more spendy ones.

[cture]

Hi all. Somewhere on this board was a link related to the experiment UV spectrum absorbtion by THC and CBD. If someone could give it out. Thank you

[MedicalCP]

Hi All Im a NOOB and growing 6 plants drip with the UFO Triband 2 weeks in and the Plants are Thriving I cant wait fo another 2 weeks to go by I am getting around an inch a day Growth Will Keep ya Posted

[SAtown]

Tried and true the 90 watt UFO is the latest and greatest in grow lighting.

The UFO replaces your 400-600 watt MH/HPS systems utilizing truly space age technology. Emitting virtually no heat, consuming a minimal 90 watts, very little light decay, no need for a ballast or reflector; Its no wonder NASA uses LED Technology to grow plants in outer-space .

The LED UFO Grow Light uses only 90 watts of power, rendering it 80% more efficient over modern Metal Halide and High-Pressure Sodium (HPS) lighting. Providing only the exact spectrum used by plants for growth means you use less power and get more of the light your plants love. Since the UFO uses state of the art LED technology the heat output is minimal at best, keeping your climate steady and your thermal signature hidden.

The UFO is suitable for all stages and applications of Indoor/Greenhouse Plant Growing. From Hydroponic and Commercial Greenhouses to your Average Hobbyist, the UFO produces thick, dense, healthy plants from sprout to flower to harvest!

The UFO can light up to 4m x 4m or 12' x 12' as the primary light source, or much greater heights as a supplemental light source.

(of course they don't give the exact type of led used, but I'm sure we can figure it out w/ a little research.

[oldmac]

Tried and true the 90 watt UFO is the latest and greatest in grow lighting.

The UFO replaces your 400-600 watt MH/HPS systems utilizing truly space age technology.

The UFO can light up to 4m x 4m or 12' x 12' as the primary light source,


SAtown;

As a user and experimenter, and a LED lover, I say BULLSHIT!

Claims like that are so far removed from reality there is no way I would believe anything else you have to say.

This is exactly why so many people don't believe in LEDs, they buy something based on shit like this and when it doesn't live up to those exagerated claims, LED's get bad mouthed. When in reality it's not the LEDs fault, the problem is some schuster trying to make a buck off uneducated people.

[MerryPrankstr]

SAtown,
Many of us have tried and successfully used LEDs for growing, but I'm afraid that the info listed on that eBay store is just plain BS. Right now I'm using about 400 watts of LED and getting great buds.

14 watts is just plain not enough to grow and flower with.

Again, this type of LED info is what gives credence to the LED's won't grow cannabis ideas. LEDs will work but the efficency and cost of the LED needed is being greatly exagerated by those only interested in ripping other unsuspecting individuals off.

Sorry, bud...

MP

[Weezard]

SAtown;

As a user and experimenter, and a LED lover, I say BULLSHIT!

Claims like that are so far removed from reality there is no way I would believe anything else you have to say.

He's not sayin' it, brah. He's just regurgitatin' what he read at the led bandit's on-line store.

This is exactly why so many people don't believe in LEDs, they buy something based on shit like this and when it doesn't live up to those exagerated claims, LED's get bad mouthed. When in reality it's not the LEDs fault, the problem is some schyster trying to make a buck off uneducated people.

Aloha, OldMac

Looks like dem ledwholesale shysters just made $32 off of that guy.
He's determined to try a grow with that 225 China panel POC and will find out that "Leds don't work":D
[attachment=o218282]
So, you wanna tell him? Or should I?

Ah fuggedaboudit!
This little rip-off just might get him to do the requred "homework", yah?:cool:

Onward, to the great egress! -P.T Barnum


Regards,
Weezard

[Weezard]

Just in case u get confused easily...http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/1Som_Bidsome/Grow_Light_Box_Red_and_Blue_001.jpg:)

Tsk!
No need to get snarky with OldMac.
He knows what he's on about.


You sir, have made an error.:(


How do I know?
Easy, I made the same error when I was starting with LEDS.:)
Happens to the best of us.

Here's what's inside that China Panel.

[attachment=o218283]

[attachment=o218284]

As for the discrete leds used..
Gimme a J, gimme a U, gimme an N...:D


It's a fire hazard as well.

So, I took my lumps, threw it out, and moved on.
It served a purpose.
It made me read enough to do it right.
That was well worth the purchase price to me.

Not interested in an argument.
Just tryin' to save you some grief.


Aloha,
Weezard

[MerryPrankstr]

Hey Weezard, hope I didn't rub you the wrong way, somehow.

How's the lamp work'n out for ya?

I had to remove one of the Procyons to balance the heat load so I'm down to 435 watts right now. Gonna have to work on getting more air flow next grow. Still way cooler than my HPS rig. Had to install a carbon scrubber to remove the smell. My next door neighbor passed away last December and I have a new neighbor who might not be as friendly to my garden.

hope your present flowering is coming along nicely..

MP

[oldmac]

Hey Weez,

I doubt this ahole bought anything, he's been humpin' LED Wholesalers (Ebay ripoff artists) many, many times.

Everyone here should beware! This is not a source of anything decent.

[Weezard]

Hey Weezard, hope I didn't rub you the wrong way, somehow.

If you "rubbed" me atall it must have been very gentle.:D
I'm quite ticklish in spite of my scaly appearance.;)

How's the lamp work'n out for ya?

So far, so great!
Oh, BTW, it is possible to veg. with only 15 Watts.
Just not with 15 Watts of crap.
I did build an working array of 300. 10mm. 70 Candela ea.
leds last year. Just to see if it could be done.
But, I used 660nm. reds 455 nm. blues and they are lensed to concentrate the light to a 15-20 degree angle.
I actually still use it for cloning.
And I had some success with HGL's 14Watt kit. for veg.

I had to remove one of the Procyons to balance the heat load so I'm down to 435 watts right now. Gonna have to work on getting more air flow next grow. Still way cooler than my HPS rig. Had to install a carbon scrubber to remove the smell. My next door neighbor passed away last December and I have a new neighbor who might not be as friendly to my garden.

Sneak over the fence tonight and plant a few seeds in his yard.
That'll tell you if he's a "friendly".

I did that in Ca.
When the new neighbor came out and saw the new seedling he said,
"What ho!
A volunteer!":)

We became good friends:joint1:

hope your present flowering is coming along nicely..

MP

The last flip sprouted pubic hair in 5 days and is flowering nicely.
About even with my girls in da sun!!!
Better that I had hoped, actually.

But, I'm not jumpin' on da woohoo wagon, just yet.
I have seen underlit plants thrive for a month jus' fine.
Then the lower limbs start dying when the buds swell.
And I'm not talkin' yer normal yellowing fan leaf.
They shrivel like an unwatered seedling.
Whole branches just up and die.

That's why I upped the power and switched to 660nm.
V-shell-c in about 8 more weeks.

Then, if bragging is in order...:D

I'm watching your progress with great interest.

Regards,
Weeze

[Weezard]

Hey Weez,

...
Everyone here should beware! This is not a source of anything decent.

Second and third that. O. M.!

I like to think that they are more ignorant than predatory.
Keeps the steam in.:mad:, yah?:jointsmile:

Druther gently warn folks away than harsh my mellow.:hippy:
So I "do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by well meaning stupidity."

Aloha is aloha,:)
It goes around, and comes around.

Weezard

[MerryPrankstr]

"Sneak over the fence tonight and plant a few seeds in his yard.
That'll tell you if he's a "friendly"."

That's a wonderful idea and I'm gonna see if I can work on a variant of it if I can come up with one. Mrs P and I sold our house and bought a condo when our kids grew up and married bout 20 years ago. What a dumb move in retrospect in so many, many ways...

But I do what I can with what I have. When I retire, all bets are off. We will be moving, hopefully with lots of land around us.

take care, Weezard,
MP

[DreadedHermie]

Just in case u get confused easily

Well! That makes me wanna drop the pencil to my luxurious, thermostatically controlled name-brand soldering station (with digital readout) and rush off to order one of these high-tech marvels. :lol5:

Oldmac, got something funny 'bout dis person, I'll PM ya somewhere else!

[headshake]

Sneak over the fence tonight and plant a few seeds in his yard.
That'll tell you if he's a "friendly".

I did that in Ca.
When the new neighbor came out and saw the new seedling he said,
"What ho!
A volunteer!"

that's a great idea and the second part of that made me laugh out loud!



-shake

[SAtown]

SAtown,
Many of us have tried and successfully used LEDs for growing, but I'm afraid that the info listed on that eBay store is just plain BS. Right now I'm using about 400 watts of LED and getting great buds.

14 watts is just plain not enough to grow and flower with.

Again, this type of LED info is what gives credence to the LED's won't grow cannabis ideas. LEDs will work but the efficency and cost of the LED needed is being greatly exagerated by those only interested in ripping other unsuspecting individuals off.

Sorry, bud...

MP

i am not trying to push the ebay kits on here... I just thought the design was good, and compact enough for a "small" grow area. the l.e.d.'s would need to be brighter i'm sure, but maybe you could just replace the ones that are in the ebay kits, or maybe build something like that. That was my main point. I don't know numbers, nor have i claimed to, and i have no experience w/l.e.d. growth at all so i am just learning from what i read. like the rest of u.

[Lanietheberner]

and just found that they did not produce when compared to traditional 600W HPS sodium lights....

The power bill was much nicer, but if you consider the amount of product that came from it, it was a big waste of time.

Don't waste your time or money!

[oldmac]

Hi there Lanietheberner,

Sorry to hear LEDs did not work out for you.

I know I'd like to know, and I'm sure some others here would like to know, what you used for LED light to compete with a 600watt HPS.

Somehow I think you are not a victim of "LEDs don't work" but maybe are a victim of the marketing hype that's out there. There are some wild claims made by people selling shoddy stuff, but if you look on these boards you'll see there are some folks making them work for them.

[RackitMan]

and just found that they did not produce when compared to traditional 600W HPS sodium lights....

The power bill was much nicer, but if you consider the amount of product that came from it, it was a big waste of time.

Don't waste your time or money!

Can you provide more details. LEDs are changing in power, cost and efficacy regularly. My 15 watt LED spotlights were useless for anything other than seedlings. I have done a full grow with cfls + a 50 watt panel. Now I will be trying the latest tri-color 120 watt.

Each generation clearly surpasses that that went before. The latest gen HID lights are only marginally better than the previous generation.

[beef74]

Second and third that. O. M.!

I like to think that they are more ignorant than predatory.
Keeps the steam in.:mad:, yah?:jointsmile:

Druther gently warn folks away than harsh my mellow.:hippy:
So I "do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by well meaning stupidity."

Aloha is aloha,:)
It goes around, and comes around.

Weezardyou're a very wise man Weeze-in spite of your scaly appearance-lol-good read man!

[WickedJack]

For all you LED guys here's a link of somthing I think I might buy if you's guys give it a good rating...In your opinion I want to know if you'd buy these..
I have a "origional" mounting plan for all 6 of these light's..

Thanks Up Front..!!

1296 LED Red/Blue 110-130V AC Spot Grow Light 96W=1440W on eBay.ca (item 130319831200 end time 19-Aug-09 01:24:10 EDT) (http://cgi.ebay.ca/1296-LED-Red-Blue-110-130V-AC-Spot-Grow-Light-96W-1440W_W0QQitemZ130319831200QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item1e57aad0a0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A4|39%3A1|72%3A1215|293%3A1| 294%3A200)

[Weezard]

For all you LED guys here's a link of somthing I think I might buy if you's guys give it a good rating...In your opinion I want to know if you'd buy these..


I would not!


I have a "origional" mounting plan for all 6 of these light's..

Thanks Up Front..!!

1296 LED Red/Blue 110-130V AC Spot Grow Light 96W=1440W on eBay.ca (item 130319831200 end time 19-Aug-09 01:24:10 EDT) (http://cgi.ebay.ca/1296-LED-Red-Blue-110-130V-AC-Spot-Grow-Light-96W-1440W_W0QQitemZ130319831200QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item1e57aad0a0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A4|39%3A1|72%3A1215|293%3A1| 294%3A200)

You are welcome behind..!!:D

Aloha,
Weezard

[WickedJack]

LOL ok thanks Weezard

[potofgold]

their is now way i would buy those. get a real led unit IMHO.

[ZW427]

Would I be better off with one TI Smartlamp or two Procyon 100's? Of course all 3 would be best but gotta convince myself they will pay for themselves.

[SOGMaster]

Sunshine-Systems�® | MMJ Spots (http://mmjspots.com/forum/reviews/sunshine-systems)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FpJz_aMHBQ

[oldmac]

Would I be better off with one TI Smartlamp or two Procyon 100's? Of course all 3 would be best but gotta convince myself they will pay for themselves.

The TI SmartLamp is abt 3 times stronger then one Procyon, and contains a better mix of wavelenghts. Procyons work good, TI SmartLamps much better especially for blooming.

[ZW427]

Thanks Oldmac. I think maybe a Probloom is in my future :)

[Michael420]

Y'all might be interested in this grow: LED grow 2009 - Grasscity.com Forums (http://forum.grasscity.com/advanced-growing-techniques/379587-led-grow-2009-a.html)

In the interest of fairness and honesty, I want to disclose that I am an employee of the company that makes the lights used in this grow. But, that doesn't change the fact that they kick ass. :D

[LEDGirl]

Or you guys can check out: LED Grow Test vs HPS! - Grasscity.com Forums (http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-grow-journals/435401-led-grow-test-vs-hps.html)

It starts off as a grow test between LED and HPS, and switches to two high powered LED blooms with excellent results. The lights in this thread were designed specifically for marijuana. And like Michael, I'm an employee of the company that makes the lights. We're doing a grow challenge against ProSource (Michael's company) that will be featured on various forums starting in a few weeks. Anyhow, you'll want to check it out when it begins as it their Jumbo 180W UFO against our 126W.

[oldmac]

GREAT!!!!!

:wtf:The battle of the shills.

Hey LEDGirl, who makes the diodes used in you lights?

[LEDGirl]

Bridgelux and Semi.

[LEDGirl]

By the way, here's some pictures of plants at 5 weeks into bloom using 504W (4 x 126W units) over a 2' x 4' aero tray. They are being grown by a customer and personal friend.

[dichlorvos]

Do you work for the company that sells these lights?