To the science majors/scientists/science geeks out there...

i was sitting in my genetics class today and i realized...

God (or whatever creator you believe in) must have been one hell of a chemist.

Is anyone else as fascinated as I am by how life works?

Most people dont realize that the only reason they exist is because of chemical reactions.... Chemical reactions that are so infinite and specific that anyone who says that this all happened by a "big bang" is a total ignoramus.

I dont mean to offend anyone...but,

Life (as it exists) was designed so intricately, you cant say that some genius didnt create it... whether you choose to call him God or not.

Somethin' for you all to think about.
Peace

so your saying a genious created the universe? yea thats more plausible.

???

thats not what im saying...

and since i easily pick up sarcasm i will say that was a very weak attempt at a refuting arguement.

ok since most people arent science majors i will give you a watered down example of what im talking about.

The only reason these objects we call our bodies know how to grow is because of a molecule called Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) that exists in many copies in every cell that makes up our bodies.

lets break it down.

Deoxyribose, which is a sugar derived from ribose (which is basically a carbon-oxygen ring)

Purine/Pyrimidine base, which is another ring with electronegative atoms to induce hydrogen bonding so the double strand can exist stabley (coincidence?)

Phosphodiester backbone, which is very stable and very negative, allowing it to regulated by postive amino acids (argenine & lysine) by condensing and relaxing the DNA. This is BASICALLY how gene expression is regulated... if anyone is more interested i will explain further.... (ever wonder why we all start from one cell, but as we grow our eye cells and our toe nail cells are completely different?)

This is just one example, but a good one to show those who dont know that life is made of chemistry...

Now who would like to tell me that all this just happened because of a huge explosion?

All life can be broken down into mathematical formulas however it is simply a case of HUMAN thinking that allows us the arrogance to believe we know anything for sure.
God or whatever you choose to call it is a creation of the human mind to try to give answers to an unanswerable question."Someone or something must've made this" is only a thought a human would have and is probably the stupidest thought ever since we can't even concieve of the complexity of the thing that does our thinking for us ... the BRAIN.
The BIG BANG theory is scientist attempts to quantify something they barely understand.
Knowledge is like water , it is useless to try to fill a gallon jug with ten gallons of water.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

All life can be broken down into mathematical formulas however it is simply a case of HUMAN thinking that allows us the arrogance to believe we know anything for sure.
God or whatever you choose to call it is a creation of the human mind to try to give answers to an unanswerable question."Someone or something must've made this" is only a thought a human would have and is probably the stupidest thought ever since we can't even concieve of the complexity of the thing that does our thinking for us ... the BRAIN.
The BIG BANG theory is scientist attempts to quantify something they barely understand.
Knowledge is like water , it is useless to try to fill a gallon jug with ten gallons of water.

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actually we understand alot more than you obviously believe... maybe YOU dont understand it.

we have physics and chemistry down to a science my friend... its not just a "mathematical explanation".

this is a thread about the complexity of biological life... please dont turn it into a "God bashing" one.

Wheres birdgirl? she'll shed some light on this i'm sure.

A math teacher from my youth once sidelined his discussion on theroy vs. law to ponder the thought of taking all the parts of a fine swiss watch and placing them into a large shoebox and then shake.....Now how long before all those parts fall into place and you have a working watch???????

I think this is what your getting at...is it possible for the watch (life) to assemble itself through random movements...perhaps, but more likely to have been put together.....Well at least I would not shake a box for billions of years just to see what time it is........

i believe we are as close to a god as there can be

and so is a squirrel

cause were, literally, different parts of one concious

and all that we see is our concious

all that we FEEL is our concious

and the concious isnt in what we can see or feel, in fact, it isnt in anything at all

I totally agree.

Everything just comes together so fucking perfectly. The food chain, all the body systems.


And to imagine, when you break it down, we're all made up of EXTREMELY small particles we call Atoms, which is even smaller when you break it into the Protrons, Neutrons, and Electrons.

Since I am a chemist you really are taking a lot for granted.
You miss the point .
The simple limitations of our own abilities make it impossible to accept that we cannot answer some very basic questions.
OK scientist tell me (NO THEORIES ONLY FACTS WILL BE ACCEPTED)

What wiped out the dinosaurs?
What is real ?
How many different species are there on this planet ? Don't forget new ones are discovered all the time .
Why do people feel they need to believe that some force created us and everything ?
Why couldn't we all be figments of our own imagination ?
Why couldn't we simply have popped into existence?
Maybe you would know if you were insane and imagining everything and maybe you would be so deluded that you believed what was in your mind but in reality it could all be a dream.

Get where I'm coming from yet ??
Science can't, nor do I believe it ever will be able to answer all questions.
Our human limits make us prone to mistakes and on numerous occasions science has had to admit to getting it wrong.

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Originally Posted by midlifecrisis

A math teacher from my youth once sidelined his discussion on theroy vs. law to ponder the thought of taking all the parts of a fine swiss watch and placing them into a large shoebox and then shake.....Now how long before all those parts fall into place and you have a working watch???????

I think this is what your getting at...is it possible for the watch (life) to assemble itself through random movements...perhaps, but more likely to have been put together.....Well at least I would not shake a box for billions of years just to see what time it is........

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WOW thats fucking awesome! thankyou this makes it much easier for me now.

basically the watch will NOT assemble itself inside the shoebox, obviously, same thing goes for life.

What I'm saying is not that life does not assemble itself, because it does. There are many parts or biological life that self assemble (such as viruses).

Viruses are made of DNA (or RNA) and a protein capsule. If you throw all those ingredients into a test tube... you will have viruses my friend, its a fact thats been proven.

Many other proteins that our bodies sythesize also self assemble. The reason they self assemble (and the reason ANYTHING happens on this earth) is simply because of the PHYSICS of the elements.

Now think about how many chemical systems make up your body...

Done thinking?

If you thought of EVERYTHING, then you are right. The elements present on this earth have been designed to follow certain rules.
Then, based on these rules, WHOLE BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS exist, such as hormones.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I'm frustrated because its hard to explain, and it doesnt do it justice to only give one example. EVERYTHING that goes on in your body, and EVERYTHING that makes up your body is made of elements that opperate a certain way because they must follow rules.

Now tell me we werent designed by someone or something.
Now tell me that we all happened by accident.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

Since I am a chemist you really are taking a lot for granted.
You miss the point .
The simple limitations of our own abilities make it impossible to accept that we cannot answer some very basic questions.
OK scientist tell me (NO THEORIES ONLY FACTS WILL BE ACCEPTED)

What wiped out the dinosaurs?
What is real ?
How many different species are there on this planet ? Don't forget new ones are discovered all the time .
Why do people feel they need to believe that some force created us and everything ?
Why couldn't we all be figments of our own imagination ?
Why couldn't we simply have popped into existence?
Maybe you would know if you were insane and imagining everything and maybe you would be so deluded that you believed what was in your mind but in reality it could all be a dream.

Get where I'm coming from yet ??
Science can't, nor do I believe it ever will be able to answer all questions.
Our human limits make us prone to mistakes and on numerous occasions science has had to admit to getting it wrong.

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dinosaurs could have died from anything, just like something could easily kill all humans tommorow...

All different species come from mutations in genetic material, which by the way, is very universal across all species.

You cant just be a chemist.... you have to apply your chemistry knowledge.

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Originally Posted by iwantFUEGO

basically the watch will NOT assemble itself inside the shoebox, obviously, same thing goes for life.

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oh no, it will

EVERYTHING has a chance

there is even a chance that it will assemble itself on the first shake

^True, but that chance is so insignificantly small it's basically popped out of existance.

There is no chance about it...

Molecules interact with eachother because of their electronegative/electropositive qualities. Just think of a magnet...only think of all different kinds of magents that you can assemble together to make even more specific magnets that only bind to certain magnets...

Now take that idea, and multiply it by 1,000,000... and you now have modern biochemistry.

Yea, that shit definately happened by chance.

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Originally Posted by MFer

^True, but that chance is so insignificantly small it's basically popped out of existance.

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Not true, it's called infinity and every single moment of it every possibility is rolling it's dice.
The watch obviously fell into place eventually, and here we are.
If the doors of perception were cleaned,
everything would appear
as it is- infinite.
-William Blake

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Originally Posted by Inferius

Not true, it's called infinity and every single moment of it every possibility is rolling it's dice.
The watch obviously fell into place eventually, and here we are.
If the doors of perception were cleaned,
everything would appear
as it is- infinite.
-William Blake

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Everybody keeps trying to prove me wrong with some theoretical statement.

Were talking about science people. Shit has been proven and explained.

Sheesh... this isnt the book of proverbs...

There is no "dice rolling" that has to do with biochemistry.

Einstein believed that everything in this physical life is predictible by the calculation of various factors that we cannot put into consideration due to our limited senses, even rolling dices. ''God never plays at dice"
Chance is absolute, there are no impossibilities.

Because of this website and movie... http://www.privilegedplanet.com/ I now believe in a god.

It gives irrefutable evidence on how privileged the planet earth is. and how minute the chance is, that a planet with the specifications of earth, really is.

After watching it, I was blown away... truly, blown away. I didn't even know 90% of the shit on there. The way the earths gravitational field PERFECTLY shields us from some of the largest meteors in cosmic history just blew me away. and SO SO SO MUCH more.

Design is all around us. Look at your hands and fingers, DNA etc. Look at horses for instance. You going to tell me that that was not designed for a human being to use. Perfect bone structure to support human weight. To say that everything came about by random chance just seems even more and more stupid to me every day that i live my life.

Its also kinda funny that the only place in the universe that a solar eclipse is visible... is the only place that there are observers. For some reason our Earthly location is extraordinarily well suited to allow us to peer into the heavens and discover its secrets.

"God is NOT Imaginary. It takes true faith to KNOW God.

Most people must see to believe, true visionaries believe to see"

It actually doesent take much "faith" to know god at all. I mean, if there is just pure evidence in front of my face, especially scientific, ill have "faith" for sure.

So you are saying that chaos has order and there are no chances so therefore how can you know wether what you are doing is choice or preordained and if it's preordained then everything is already decided?

You fail to see your own inadequate statements really only enhance the idea in my mind that you aren't grasping the possibility of anything other than what you "believe".

Step outside and get the big picture of how insignificant you and all humans are.

More questions....

How does it feel to be a cat ?
What are ghosts ?
How long is a piece of string ?

Who cares ?

Live life don't try to believe you or anyone will ever know everything.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

Live life don't try to believe you or anyone will ever know everything.

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LOL

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Originally Posted by souldistortion

Because of this website and movie... http://www.privilegedplanet.com/ I now believe in a god.

It gives irrefutable evidence on how privileged the planet earth is. and how minute the chance is, that a planet with the specifications of earth, really is.

After watching it, I was blown away... truly, blown away. I didn't even know 90% of the shit on there. The way the earths gravitational field PERFECTLY shields us from some of the largest meteors in cosmic history just blew me away. and SO SO SO MUCH more.

Design is all around us. Look at your hands and fingers, DNA etc. Look at horses for instance. You going to tell me that that was not designed for a human being to use. Perfect bone structure to support human weight. To say that everything came about by random chance just seems even more and more stupid to me every day that i live my life.

Its also kinda funny that the only place in the universe that a solar eclipse is visible... is the only place that there are observers. For some reason our Earthly location is extraordinarily well suited to allow us to peer into the heavens and discover its secrets.

"God is NOT Imaginary. It takes true faith to KNOW God.

Most people must see to believe, true visionaries believe to see"

It actually doesent take much "faith" to know god at all. I mean, if there is just pure evidence in front of my face, especially scientific, ill have "faith" for sure.

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You are a wise man.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

So you are saying that chaos has order and there are no chances so therefore how can you know wether what you are doing is choice or preordained and if it's preordained then everything is already decided?

You fail to see your own inadequate statements really only enhance the idea in my mind that you aren't grasping the possibility of anything other than what you "believe".

Step outside and get the big picture of how insignificant you and all humans are.

More questions....

How does it feel to be a cat ?
What are ghosts ?
How long is a piece of string ?

Who cares ?

Live life don't try to believe you or anyone will ever know everything.

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I dont fail to do anything. You think i forgot about the choas theory? You think i dont realize entropy? What is such a wonder is that biochemistry came together on this earth in an environment where entropy exists. Thats why it must have been designed my friend.

go to video.google, and search intelligent design....and blow ur mind even more.....so much for natural selection....I am a scientist, and brought up on the theory of natural selection....but there are holes in it!!

this ones for you dice rollers....:clap: :clap: :clap:

:confused: :confused: :confused:

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Originally Posted by Inferius

If the doors of perception were cleaned,

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its cleansed, actually....remember, William Blake was born in 1757

and all chances have the same chance, and that chance is definate...its just a matter of time

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Originally Posted by flamingskullballs

its cleansed, actually....remember, William Blake was born in 1757

and all chances have the same chance, and that chance is definate...its just a matter of time

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Chance is theoretical... credible only mathematically.

(not saying its false or anything) :D

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Originally Posted by iwantFUEGO

Life (as it exists) was designed so intricately, you cant say that some genius didnt create it... whether you choose to call him God or not.

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I have sudden reservations concerning your abilities to participate in the 'scientific' process.

Point is, just because statistically (with small numbers), you have 1/6 chance of rolling one dice and getting 2...doesnt mean you will...

same with large numbers... If you shook the box for a trillian billion years straight, doesnt mean that the watch is going to assemble itself.

Theres a chance... but it doesnt mean that chance is definate..

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

I have sudden reservations concerning your abilities to participate in the 'scientific' process.

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LOL get over it, theres nothing wrong with believing in a designer. The only person who is closed minded here is you...thinking its not possible.

I'm not trying to preach to anyone.

All im saying is that after almost 4 years of studying this crazy shit... my mind is blown and theres no way i believe that it all happened by chance.

And if you think im not qualified... go ahead... try me, I'm always up for a debate.

Probably didnt read one thing i wrote besides my first post... or i cant see why you would say that.... sorry.

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Originally Posted by iwantFUEGO

Point is, just because statistically (with small numbers), you have 1/6 chance of rolling one dice and getting 2...doesnt mean you will...

same with large numbers... If you shook the box for a trillian billion years straight, doesnt mean that the watch is going to assemble itself.

Theres a chance... but it doesnt mean that chance is definate..

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When you add infinity to the equation,
all chances are definate.
Why settle for one answer? Why do you immediately assume someone "created" our reality? The answer is only an idea of what could be, what makes god any more relevant than any other theoretical possibility?
Nothing.

dude youre taking a biology class which is cool but now that youve learned a little about DNA and precursors dont be taking this attitude that you now understand science.

I always debated that too, everythings so intricate someone had to sit down and design it. 6 Billion years is a fucking loooooong time and since those lipids made the 1st cell miniscule changes have happend constantly that over that very long time add up. Every generation we're a tiny bit more complex.

The big bang is a well thought out concept with observable proof to show for it (6 billion year old light for example). Anyways what made god?

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Originally Posted by iwantFUEGO

LOL get over it, theres nothing wrong with believing in a designer. The only person who is closed minded here is you...thinking its not possible.

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Sure it's possible. Anything is possible, isn't that how the saying goes? I'm almost certain it is, "anything is possible".

I'm not saying you haven't done your time sniffing various chemicals and the like. I'm just curious, do you even know what science is?


Besides, your entire watch analogy sucks. Nobody thinks watches evolve ex nihilo. Obviously watches evolve in stages, so first you have a flat face, possibly with a stylus to cast a shadow from the sun. At a later time, watches with markings on the face to better read the passage of time might become more viable. And with the major evolutionary gap of machinary, watches evolve into their more recognizable forms that we continue to see on earth today. Really, shaking a box... don't you know how these things work?

God rules! 'nough said :)

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Originally Posted by iwantFUEGO

ok since most people arent science majors i will give you a watered down example of what im talking about.

The only reason these objects we call our bodies know how to grow is because of a molecule called Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) that exists in many copies in every cell that makes up our bodies.

lets break it down.

Deoxyribose, which is a sugar derived from ribose (which is basically a carbon-oxygen ring)

Purine/Pyrimidine base, which is another ring with electronegative atoms to induce hydrogen bonding so the double strand can exist stabley (coincidence?)

Phosphodiester backbone, which is very stable and very negative, allowing it to regulated by postive amino acids (argenine & lysine) by condensing and relaxing the DNA. This is BASICALLY how gene expression is regulated... if anyone is more interested i will explain further.... (ever wonder why we all start from one cell, but as we grow our eye cells and our toe nail cells are completely different?)

This is just one example, but a good one to show those who dont know that life is made of chemistry...

Now who would like to tell me that all this just happened because of a huge explosion?

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good point, i have wondered this many times, in fact i renounced god a few years ago. but now i realize that organized religion is the problem, i now just try to do the right thing and help others as best as possible. unafilliated faith is what i call it, not sure if im still considered athiest

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Originally Posted by NextLineIsMine

dude youre taking a biology class which is cool but now that youve learned a little about DNA and precursors dont be taking this attitude that you now understand science.

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Good job, you are right... i did take a biology class... been taking them for three years... What does that have to do with anything??
The only thing i'm arguing is that the system is too inticrate to have created itself... explain to me how that goes against science??

"Now that youve learned a little about DNA"

Pardon me but that was a real jackass thing to say. I HAVE learned alot about DNA and will have a rebuttal for any arguement you can pose... Try me :D

Sorry if i sound arrogant but i guess you can say that remark brought it out of me.

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

Sure it's possible. Anything is possible, isn't that how the saying goes? I'm almost certain it is, "anything is possible".

I'm not saying you haven't done your time sniffing various chemicals and the like. I'm just curious, do you even know what science is?


Besides, your entire watch analogy sucks. Nobody thinks watches evolve ex nihilo. Obviously watches evolve in stages, so first you have a flat face, possibly with a stylus to cast a shadow from the sun. At a later time, watches with markings on the face to better read the passage of time might become more viable. And with the major evolutionary gap of machinary, watches evolve into their more recognizable forms that we continue to see on earth today. Really, shaking a box... don't you know how these things work?

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The watch in the box idea wasn't even mine... someone else said that and i used it to better explain myself...
Besides, it makes perfect sense if you just read ALL the posts.
Watch evolves in stages? stylus in the sun? what are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by bavet

God rules! 'nough said :)

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Hey i have an african grey!
its amazing how intelligent they are.

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Originally Posted by NextLineIsMine

The big bang is a well thought out concept with observable proof to show for it (6 billion year old light for example).

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Maybe you can explain how we on earth see 6 billion year old light.

6 billion year old light would be 6 billion lightyears away.

We would somehow have to develope a new technology that allows us to see faster than the speed of light.
THEN
we would have to sit there for 6 billion years just to catch up with the damn light.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I love it when people bring in the "6 billion year old light"

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Originally Posted by iwantFUEGO

The watch in the box idea wasn't even mine... someone else said that and i used it to better explain myself...
Besides, it makes perfect sense if you just read ALL the posts.
Watch evolves in stages? stylus in the sun? what are you talking about?

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a stylus is the shadow-casting part of a sundial. I suppose its only important if we're trying to understand the role of time-pieces through history, of which a watch is merely the most recent form. Think about it.
I know the watch in a box example isn't yours, because its rather tirelessly trumped around by Design theorists. Apparently it's the best they've got. How about you?
As to reading all the posts, why would I need to do that when what I take issue with was stated in your very first post? Or do you contradict yourself throughout the thread?

That great that you know the history of how we keep time. All I was saying is that we arent even on that subject right now...

I read all your posts...i dont see why you wouldn't...
If your gonna debate with someone, you should probably read what theyre saying to you. (Just common sense)

I dont contradict myself at all... i think ive been carrying a solid point thru out the whole thread....

i believe in a god, but i also will admit that i cannot prove that god exists; i do look around the world and think "this looks like design", the beauty of it, beyond the biological i see things in human nature that to me echo the bible

now, given infinate chance it's understandable that "anything" could happen, atleast anything that is possible; whether it's actually possible to create a living thing from nonliving molecules is not for sure; the law of biogenesis says it's not possible, but again that's just a "law" trying to define what we see

i respect the humility of realizing that one cannot truly imagine god completely when we comprehend so little about our own world; i do believe god has reached out to us though, personally