Stop back-door passage of national ID card

http://action.downsizedc.org/wyc.php?cid=23

2005-May-02

Stop back-door passage of national ID card



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Americans have long resisted the creation of a national ID card. So far, the U.S. Senate has resisted it also, but this resistance is about to finally break down now that the House-Senate conference committee has reinserted the Real ID card provision into an appropriations bill they are currently considering. Please use the form below to contact your Senators immediately. Ask them to oppose the Conference Committee version of the Emergency Appropriations Act because it includes the Real ID provision they've rejected in the past.

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The Petition

Below is the text of the letter we will send on your behalf:

Please stand up to the House. Vote No on the Conference Committee version of the Emergency Appropriations Act because it includes the provisions of The Real ID Act.

[Your personal comments here]


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http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000243042581/

The Real ID card: the machine readable you

Posted May 7, 2005, 9:32 AM ET by Barb Dybwad
Related entries: Wireless



http://img.engadget.com/common/image...19089719572126 If only it were some dystopian fiction, but the Senate is slated to pass the Real ID Act next week, which specifies that by 2008 all Americans who want to enjoy privileges such as bank accounts and air travel will be issued what will most likely be RFID-enabled ID cards (Homeland Security hasnâ??t completely decided which machine readable technology theyâ??ll use, but theyâ??re leaning heavily towards RFID since the chips are already going to be used in our passports). The card will likely take the place of your driverâ??s license and will store at the very minimum your name, birthdate, sex, ID number, a digital photograph and address, with the possibility of additional data such as a fingerprint or retinal scan. State DMVs will be receiving federal funds to hand over their databases, with the goal of making each stateâ??s data available to all other states. The House passed the measure on Thursday, and both the Senate and President Bush are expected to sign off on the bill next week. But the real question is, who will be the first to ask to have the chip implanted so they donâ??t have to worry about forgetting their wallet?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pisshead

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000243042581/

The Real ID card: the machine readable you

Posted May 7, 2005, 9:32 AM ET by Barb Dybwad
Related entries: Wireless



http://img.engadget.com/common/image...19089719572126 If only it were some dystopian fiction, but the Senate is slated to pass the Real ID Act next week, which specifies that by 2008 all Americans who want to enjoy privileges such as bank accounts and air travel will be issued what will most likely be RFID-enabled ID cards (Homeland Security hasnâ??t completely decided which machine readable technology theyâ??ll use, but theyâ??re leaning heavily towards RFID since the chips are already going to be used in our passports). The card will likely take the place of your driverâ??s license and will store at the very minimum your name, birthdate, sex, ID number, a digital photograph and address, with the possibility of additional data such as a fingerprint or retinal scan. State DMVs will be receiving federal funds to hand over their databases, with the goal of making each stateâ??s data available to all other states. The House passed the measure on Thursday, and both the Senate and President Bush are expected to sign off on the bill next week. But the real question is, who will be the first to ask to have the chip implanted so they donâ??t have to worry about forgetting their wallet?

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Wow this is such a dangerous avenue to go down, I will move out of this country before I accept a national ID equiped with an RFID, Either that or I'll be in the outback as far away as I can be from that shit. And I will not, ever have a chip installed in me or even have one in my possesion.

Not to mention, what will they say about anyone who thinks the same way I do.... one word comes to mind..... Terrorist.

yeah, come on, the white house was nuked, we have to do this, you must accept the national id card and chip.

they're putting that scenario into our minds with all of these topoff training drills...slowly gearing us up for a major attack, and the acceptance of localized martial law to begin with. you'll hear about it on the news. the military's out helping the police, searching houses for weapons, searching cars and imposing a curfew, taking people to 'rest and relocation centers'...see how helpful it is? it's not that bad. it keeps you safe.

they do the tv signal takeover tests routinely here. i usually catch them at night, but i'll be watching tv around 2am or whenever, and the station will go to that blue screen emergency alert system test...and i'll flip through all the channels and it's the same thing. the feds want tv to be digital because it's going to be your interface for big brother. it'll turn on and give you alerts to which you'll have to respond. or a special ring on your phone, and you'll be fined if you don't answer. this is already going on around the country, even just north of me. i work at a tv station and we had it on our news. totally cut and paste...feel good story. accept it.

the infrastructure is put in place well before the events that trigger their sudden necessity occur, like when we started thumbscanning for drivers' licenses thanks to bill clinton.

this country is in grave danger. we are not a constitutional republic anymore, far from it.

the government will be ready to step in and impose dictatorship to keep us safe from those evil freedom hating muslim terrorists. who stands to gain from the terrorism...who has the mean, motive and opportunity?

California school mandates RFID tags for students
Posted Feb 12, 2005, 2:25 AM ET by Marc Perton
Related entries: Wireless



A small-town school in California has become the latest to mandate that students wear RFID-based ID cards when on campus. According to Brittan Elementary School officials in Sutter, a rural farming community, the tags have been implemented to simplify attendance-taking and reduce vandalism. In addition to tracking students in classrooms, the schoolâ??s principal wants them tracked in bathrooms and locker rooms. Parents and the ACLU have raised privacy and civil-liberties concerns. Some have also questioned the financial relationship between the school and the cardsâ?? manufacturer, which is paying the school to try out the cards and offering it commissions on future sales to other schools. However, the principal, Earnie Graham, has another explanation for student objections. â??You know what it comes down to? I believe junior high students want to be stylish. This is not stylish,â?� he said. Okay, guess theyâ??ll have to switch to implants, then.









Here is another example of the RFID's, they start out as a benefit to everday life. Or atleast thats what they tell you, stateing reasons from ones above to makeing it easier to pay bills and check out of the super market. But what noone has stated is who is in control of your personal Info. Why would you volunteer to give everybit of your personal information to a stranger?

Not to mention that just because they tell you that these chips are doing one job, doesnt mean that they are not doing any other jobs. Truth is the stuff is so new that there are very few people in the world that can actually say what technology is inside the chips and what functions they serve.

How would you like it if the FBI, CIA or any Police force nation wide could listen in on your personal conversations with your wife or kids. You have no idea if these chips are capable of recording conversations or not. For all any of us know these chips could be tuned into key words and start recording when they detect them, and with wireless technology as good as it is who is to say that these chips dont have to ability to then transmit that conversation to a database for investigation.

Or for that matter have the ability to directly transmit the information apon being enabled to do so.

This is so scary.

yes, and does absolutely nothing to stop 'terrorism.'

Doesnt have to, terrorist threats to the US are well under control and thats a fact.

Any idea how easy it would be to plant something in a NY subway and walk away?

It would be insanely easy to do. and if there really were these massed armies of american hateing muslims ready to die for their cause, we would be fucked.

why only one huge attack in the US? if the threat is so Damned high then why arent we ever attacked past 9/11??

Jesus the fear campaighn has the nation conviced that these terrorists are wondering around the US with bombs strapped to them.

When the truth is if those armies really existed and they were all ready to die for their cause we would be getting hit everyday, just like the gaza strip. Take a look at what real terrorism is about, its about makeing the people scared to leave theirs homes for fear of being killed. It's desighen to take freedoms away from you by your own forfeit.

Liveing in the US I dont fear any Muslims I fear some mentally screwed white kid with a fucking gun.

What?... you dont think we are as vulnerable as the Isralis? you have to be kidding, the Isralis have been fighting "REAL terrorism" for centuries and they cant stop it. Backed by the wealthiest countries in the world, and they cant stop car bombs and suicide bombers.

So what the hell makes anyone think that the US is under attack by terrorists? because your GOV tells you so?
there is no proof that our lives are in any danger from muslim terrorists.

we're in more danger from the criminals in our own overnment committing crimes, using terrorism and the war on terror and patriotism as an excuse to be more secretive, shift power to the executive, and pass unconstitutional legislation.

i don't even fear the kid with the gun, i fear those on mad power trips using terrorism and fascism and socialism as an excuse to axe the constitution, so a few fat cat elites can profit, while openly talking about world government and giving up sovereignty to a world body, while supposedly supporting a war so iraq can be sovereign (ie, brought into world government, imf/world bank control, an impossible debt which will result in UN peacekeeping. we all know how the UN loves to keep the peace.)

yay democracy! you're not against democracy are you?

the government also can just use the threat of terror, and giving false information on big terrorists they've caught. the guy they announced that they caught a week ago that was the #3 al qaeda, now turns out to be some flotsam and jetsom 'terrorist'....a nobody. you don't hear amsterdam bragging about that anymore...he can always just deny it ever happened, using doublethink. but that still doesn't change the fear and excitement they instilled in people, while not announcing he was a nobody in the end.

this happens constantly. it's propaganda.

there doesn't have to be any real terror, just the never ending threat and reminding of it, unless the dictatorship is meant to take a bigger leap forward.

Also looking at the time line, by 2008 we are supposed to have these cards.

isnt that the year we are supposed to get rid of W?

Scary very scary.

"Oh, Can-a-da..."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bhallg2k

"Oh, Can-a-da..."

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I've been thinking on that all night, I'm not sure I'd be willing to do it. But I would have to move from where I live now without question and before the ID's hit the street. Also scares me that I might not be able to sell my house when they come out without takeing such a heavy hit I will lose money. Because there is no way I beleive the numbers of people who think like us are limited. And if all of them decide to leave too I would take a hoseing on my house.

I was just saying that as a joke.

Sad to say it, but your worries are a little overblown on this one. Though, I wouldn't put it past some in government to try for a true national ID program.

However, as it stands now, the Real ID Act simply says that all states have to do more to verify a license applicant's personal information, that IDs need to have better security features to make them more difficult to forge and that they should be computer readable, as most are now (notice the black strip on yours).

It's not that big of a change. As far as travel and banking goes, you already have to show your license to get on a plane or open a bank account; and under the Patriot Act, those activities are already monitored. The only difference is that by 2008, the ID you carry to do those things must meet Homeland Security requirements (ie, be forgery-proof and be given after your home address is verified more thoroughly). Your license (ID) will still be issued by your home state and the federal government will not create an ID database.

States will also be given the option of creating a second tier of licenses that do not meet the federal requirements. Although you would still be able to drive and buy beer and whatnot with it, you wouldn't be able to use that ID to board a plane, open a bank account, etc.

It's a law mostly aimed at the state's DMVs. And knowing how Republicans operate, they probably won't even fund the initiative properly, like "No Child Left Behind."

This whole thing does send up a red flag, in my opinion, and it's worth fighting against. But don't get this Orwellian notion that you're going to have to carry a federally issued identification card to cross state borders and that the government will use it to monitor your every move. But you are right in that this could be a dangerous precurser to a more invasive plan.

Hell, if you live in NJ like I do, you've already gone through this. I had to have a notarized birth certificate, as if my standing in front of them wasn't evidence enough of me being born, and I ended up using a letter from Congress as my proof of address. Even after all of that, I still got grief from the DMV.

By the way, I'm a lifelong, die-hard liberal who's always on the lookout for this sort of stuff or any other erosion of civil liberties, just to let you know that I'm not spinning this with a conservative agenda. I don't feel right about this plan at all, but I'd rather have energy devoted to defeating the renewal of the Patriot Act.

You know what tho Bhall, If I were going to make a money bet on the current situation of things and where they would be in 15 or 20 years. I'd bet on a police state or something that is called by another name but being a police state on the base.

I think that most of the public either dont know or dont care where technology is advanceing. And advancement in this feild is very very dangerous, number one they are already talking about these chips being able to be connected to your bank accounts.

who is to say that the next step isnt makeing them into cell phones as well, truth is I nore most of the public really know how advanced this technology is and what it is capable of becomeing in the future. But i do have an imagination on me as you can tell by some of my theories. And I dont like where this is heading at all. And the way of thinking that it wont be that bad or its not much of a chnge from what it is now is even more dangerous than the chips.

It's the frog in the water bit bro, they know they cant simply take over the US people by force. Hell they have been makeing money on gun sales for so long, we would certainly be headed for a civil war should they try to police them now. But do it slowly and as they fabricate new threats for the US people to be afraid of they will little by little clamp down the dragnet until we are where they want us. By removeing our rights for things under the umbrella of home security.

Not to mention the advancements in renewable resources, the hybrid cars that are out now are just the begining of it. They will figure out how to make those cars more practical( they already are), and more and more americans will but them to cut the dependancy on fossil fuels with riseing gas prices. After that is said and done and most gas engines are not used anymore OR the GOV puts a limit on the amount of gasoline you can consume (keeping track of it via that nice little chip you now have) and then putting a clamp on gas all together by inventing yet another invisible threat that hasnt happen yet. That puts most of the worlds oil reserves in the hands of one nation who is then free to militarily police its population because they will lack the basic tools to fight back.

The things im saying I dont think will happen as soon as the cards come out, rather a bit at a time. Get us to accept it by limiting the coverage of it but not putting into effect laws to protect us from misuse or further changes to it. Then as the new threats are being forced apon the american people they can scare us further into giveing up more and more.

The non beleivers say what the hell are you talking baout none of this stuff has happen.....Yet.

But what I dont get about that is, our GOV is makeing these new laws based on things that havent happen yet, and they invaded a country based on things that never happened.

Our GOV is looking at the future .....why can't you? (not a question for you Bhall, just a general question to all)

Not this guy...... With his wild X-File theories....

blah,blah,blah!same shit different day.

I don't want to summarily dismiss your ideas about an overreaching government out of hand. I mean, I think some of them are plausible, but in the end I don't think they're really possible.

While it may not seem like it if you're extremely liberal (like me) or extremely conservative, Americans, as a whole, have a pretty good collective bullshit detector and always seem to come in and stop especially egregious abuses of power when the moment to do so is critical.

However, I do agree with you that the government plays on citizens' fears to advance certain back-door agendas. All you have to do to recognize that is see the Justice Department's use of the Patriot Act to prosecute people other than terrorists. It's certainly legal for them to do so according to the Act, but the law wasn't passed with those intentions. It was hurriedly passed in the wake of 9/11 without committee markup or public hearing because Congress believed, correctly, that the vast majority of the public wanted the FBI, CIA and armed services to have all the power possible to find and defeat terrorists. I think that if the bill was vetted more closely by members of Congress and the public at large, it would've been amended in a way that didn't infringe upon many of the long held rights of the people and maybe there wouldn't be such ardent opposition to it's renewal.

That's kind of my point, really. I don't think I'm as paranoid as you are about things, but it does worry me that government is becoming less and less transparent, as the Founders envisioned.

Case in point: Last November, the House passed a bill that gave the chairmen of the House and Senate appropriations committees and their assistants the authority to look over anyone's tax filings for basically any reason. This small provision, buried in a 1,000 page omnibus spending bill, wasn't even discovered until after the bill was passed by the House. There was a potential for government shutdown, as the Senate refused to pass it (which was necessary as a whole to fund governent operations) as written.

Whether it's public apathy, the government increasingly cloaking its conducting of business, or, as I think, a smaller combination of the two, it's definitely something worth keeping watch over with an eye for reform.

I think you guys have been reading a little too much Orwell.

their minds are gone!

Some people just have to believe that everyone is conspiring against them.... some would call it paranoia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bhallg2k

I don't want to summarily dismiss your ideas about an overreaching government out of hand. I mean, I think some of them are plausible, but in the end I don't think they're really possible.

While it may not seem like it if you're extremely liberal (like me) or extremely conservative, Americans, as a whole, have a pretty good collective bullshit detector and always seem to come in and stop especially egregious abuses of power when the moment to do so is critical.

However, I do agree with you that the government plays on citizens' fears to advance certain back-door agendas. All you have to do to recognize that is see the Justice Department's use of the Patriot Act to prosecute people other than terrorists. It's certainly legal for them to do so according to the Act, but the law wasn't passed with those intentions. It was hurriedly passed in the wake of 9/11 without committee markup or public hearing because Congress believed, correctly, that the vast majority of the public wanted the FBI, CIA and armed services to have all the power possible to find and defeat terrorists. I think that if the bill was vetted more closely by members of Congress and the public at large, it would've been amended in a way that didn't infringe upon many of the long held rights of the people and maybe there wouldn't be such ardent opposition to it's renewal.

That's kind of my point, really. I don't think I'm as paranoid as you are about things, but it does worry me that government is becoming less and less transparent, as the Founders envisioned.

Case in point: Last November, the House passed a bill that gave the chairmen of the House and Senate appropriations committees and their assistants the authority to look over anyone's tax filings for basically any reason. This small provision, buried in a 1,000 page omnibus spending bill, wasn't even discovered until after the bill was passed by the House. There was a potential for government shutdown, as the Senate refused to pass it (which was necessary as a whole to fund governent operations) as written.

Whether it's public apathy, the government increasingly cloaking its conducting of business, or, as I think, a smaller combination of the two, it's definitely something worth keeping watch over with an eye for reform.

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I hope you are right, I hope that I am just as paraniod as some think I am.(this could be a side effect of what brings me to this board to begin with)

And everything that I have said now or in the past has ment to be theory. In the sense of a what if or whats happens.

I admit I get out of hand a bit and I let my head really wonder into things. but that shouldnt take away from the possiblity of such things happening.

It all sort of hinges on whether you beleive 9/11 was comitted on our own say so.

Or If you beleive W was placed into office. (placed being that he cheated his way into office useing a network of foreighn connections and relatives, or directly placed by Bilderberg)

and lets not forget the Bilderberg meetings.

the fear campaighn


If you beleive any of these or can aknowledge they even exist, then its just a short juant away from beleiving they can commit more such attacks to further a cause. And then if they can do that sort of stuff, then they have the ability to do more things than we can imagine.

My theories are geared toward the possiblities that are unthinkable by most. To call me stupid, uneducated, crazy, ignorant, or any other names is only makeing others feel better about the looming future that none of us can predict. They simply cant imagine that anyone can posses such power.

If you dont beleive any of those things, then you beleive what the GOV tells you, that we are in danger from terrorist. I am just a quack that found a keyboard amonst his chailmail and Everquest posters.

I'm not religiuos, and aliens have not stuck anything in my ass to my knowledge.

But the universe is entirely too big for us to be alone in it.

I also have never read a single Orwell story.

And the issue about tagging one bill onto another to sneak it in has been happening for years. And 9 times out of 10 public view is yes its not right to do that but thats what they do. Its like saying polititions are crooks or saying they lie. Its amazeingly publicly accepted that they have a sleazy reputation. So this doesnt suprise me a bit, its more supriseing that that havent reformed the proccess to not allow this sort of thing to take place. Again to me it doesnt make sense so there has to be a reason for it to keep happening. ( place political conspirancy theory here )

Peace.

What I meant by that Orwell comment is that you guys pay way too much attention to all these conspiracy-theories... Orwell's writing are about the new-world-orders where the gov't sees all and controls all, basically what all these crazy libs talk about nonstop. Anyone that thinks any government would blow up the tallest buildings in its its own country is just plain stupid. Think rationally, why the hell would they do that? Why? There is no really good reason! There are plenty of reason for the TERRORISTS to blow up the WTC, but really, give me a good reason why Bush would do it!

" Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period, and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate systematical plan of reducing us to slavery. "
-- Thomas Jefferson



" If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress. ... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America. "
--James Madison



" A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, followed always by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. "
-- Alexander Fraser Tytler

wow, and that's exactly what's happening today, deliberately though, not by accident.



" The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. "
-- Thomas Jefferson


what a bunch of conspiracy theorists. governments? tyranny? what? never.

weapons sales around the world, no bid rebuilding contracts, massive record opium levels coming out of afghanistan, military bases in the middle east, domestic police state, unconstitutional anti-terror laws (when the constitution is all we need), bigger government, more government funding, homeland security (russia and germany had that too)...an excuse to further militarize police and create citizen spies...lots of reasons.

more means motive and opportunity than a bunch of tinpot terrorists controlled by some guy in a cave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hydrizzle

What I meant by that Orwell comment is that you guys pay way too much attention to all these conspiracy-theories... Orwell's writing are about the new-world-orders where the gov't sees all and controls all, basically what all these crazy libs talk about nonstop. Anyone that thinks any government would blow up the tallest buildings in its its own country is just plain stupid. Think rationally, why the hell would they do that? Why? There is no really good reason! There are plenty of reason for the TERRORISTS to blow up the WTC, but really, give me a good reason why Bush would do it!

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About Orwell's writeing, and about them seeing all and hearing all. Comeing this week there is a bill up in the senate to institute national ID cards equipped with an RFID. Do you know what an RFID is? Its a chip that can be attached to anything includeing bullets (who really knows if and how long they have been in use, so there is no way you can tell if or how long they have been doing this in the US).

Furthermore this technology is just about as cutting edge as you can get so there are not very many in the world that understand it. And none of us can be certain what these chips are doing without our knowledge.

If you cant admit that it's a device that makes "Big Brother" possible your a fool.

I dont beleive it was our GOV that allowed them to blow up those buildings. I beleive it was the people in power that control the worlds economy and governments. As a reason to instigate a world government as a pre cursor to a global police state.

Further more I dont think Bush had any control over it, but he did allow it to happen without stopping it.

and terrorist thru-out history have been labeled that by those that are combating them to sway public opion to one side or the other... think about that for a sec...if the press called these groups rebels, or freedom fighters. you wouldnt be afraid. But the title TERRORIST is so offensive and overpowering that it scares ALLOT of people.

Truth of the matter is neither you nor I has ever met a "terrorist" and neither of us knows exactly what they beleive in. We all know that the media is subject to censorship and political influence. And considering thats where the United States learned of Terrorism and what constitutes it, Your view nor mine can be considered truely accurate on this subject.

Peace.

Lol, it's not like they wil be able to pinpoint you rlocation with a sattelite, the RFID chips are for verification of the ID's authenticity. Stop watching so much X-files, goddammit!

never seen 1 full episode in my life. i think i've watched about 20 minutes total. i don't watch much tv.

then again, you can't refute information, you make a stupid comment about watching x-files, and that somehow makes you right...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hydrizzle

Lol, it's not like they wil be able to pinpoint you rlocation with a sattelite, the RFID chips are for verification of the ID's authenticity. Stop watching so much X-files, goddammit!

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you still have no clue as to what your talking about, this, we can all tell by your inability to effectively rebute anything we say. The standard non beleiver answer is "your paranoid", or"your crazy" or "but none of this has happen yet"

but never any solid rebute to anything I have to say.

Our conversation is has concluded.

captain conspiracy has arrived!

There is no way to give a solid rebute to someone who does not lissten to sense. Anytime I say something, you guys post more conspricay theories and random facts that have not been proven, off some random ass website that I have never heard of.

my favorite conspiracy theory...(you assume conspiracies don't exist and never have when you say that, which only makes you look even more dumb)...is the 19 freedom hating tinpot muslim freedom hating evil terrorist muslims who hate freedom. after all, it's a conspiracy by definition to say they did it, and it's also just a theory, and a very weak one.

pisshead is the conspiracy guy,i agree with you most of the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pisshead

...is the 19 freedom hating tinpot muslim freedom hating evil terrorist muslims who hate freedom.

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ROFL!!! You think that the muslim extremists who hate America are just a conspiracy theory? OMG LMAO!!! So i guess WWII is one too? The whole holocaust thing, thats just wool over our eyes! Stalin? Kill 20 million? Yeah right I bet Russia doesnt even exist!! Pisshead and Morlboro, you people belong in the nuthouse.

what are you talking about? stalin was a good guy, right? why would a leader who loves his people want to harm them? don't you think it's insane that stalin would do anything bad? you're a conspiracy theorist for saying something so dumb!

don't bring up hitler either. what do you mean our leader burned down the reichstag to get a dictatorship? what are you a conspiracy theorist? why would hitler burn his own building? why? he said he's doing what he can to protect us. we have to believe him! we're liberating those countries. hitler loves this country, he's keeping us safe from the enemy? so what if he's created reich security and a number and tracking system...i don't mind getting a number if it will keep me safe.

hindsight's 20/20.


it doesn't mean there aren't muslim people in the world who hate us. i am aware of that. it's not confined to them either. just because there are doesn't mean they did it. but your thinking is so black/white...if not this, then that...that you'll never be able to understand.

i shouldn't say never. i was just like you a few years ago...you can search for my name over at the other politics board. then i took a break, started reading some books published before the internet was even a thought, read up on world history, how slavery and propaganda and mind control has been used on populations to control them, how the art has been perfected as the years have gone on, and how people always say "it can never happen here..." even as it is happening...you know, more conspiracy stuff that doesn't exist.

Where did I say i like stalin, the biggest killer in history? (20 million people murdered)