-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
I started in on this but decided to create a new thread here.
Why/how did Prop 8 win in CA? With Obama winning, dems out in force? Who'd a thunk?
I am really sick to death with hearing the cry baby shit about it. This is why,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggins
We didn't just "get" the law, we actually put it through ourselves through initiative. Government actually worked.... scary
OK,
I just wanted to take this moment to completely derail this thread, I am sorry.
I don't think that initiative referendum is a good thing, but that aside, you have it as do I, and you (you people in michigan) used it. Great, now let me ask you this.
How would you feel if 4 state supreme court activists judges overturned it and made MMJ illegal again?
You would not be very happy, nor should you be. Nor really should the people that oppose MMJ, simply because if you allow activist judges to legislate from the bench, you might as well not have any other legislative process period. Whose to say that at some point in the future some other activist judges overturn it again, and so on?
This happened here in CA.
So, putting it that way, do some of you here understand fundamentally why someone like myself would support Prop 8, to me, the issue of allowing activist judges to legislate directly from the bench, is a much more significant issue, than gay marriage.
Personally I could care less if the state of CA wants to "give" a special rights to anyone, personally, I fail to see how "getting married" is a preserved or garuanteed right? Are you kidding me?
But that aside, I realize that there is alot of, "oh it was the bible thumpers, blah whatever", I can't help but wonder if it wasn't just that most people realized that the end does not justify the means. The gay community should just pass a constitutional amendment in the next election. They just need 6-700K signatures, with money that is no problem. Look at some of the crap that got the required signatures, a fucking joke.
But gay marriage activists should not be satisfied with getting what they wanted via un-legit/unconstitutional means. Who would want that? At the same time, I would not support it if some crazy activist judges declared cannabis legal period here in CA. Think about it, once we allow judges to do this, where does it end? These powers are not given to them.
So when I explain this to folks, I get alot of glazed over deer in the headlights looks.
Someone called me a racist too?:wtf: Just for good measure I guess. LOL I dunno? Am I crazy, or is the issue of activist judges violating the rights of everyone, gay, straight, cow, chicken, a much more important issue than whether or not gays can marry? It kind of is to me.
And would people that support what the judges did, support the same action in Michigan if activist judges there struck down MMJ? I suspect that no one here would say "oh yeah that's ok!"
But many folks here are willing to say that when it comes to what was happening here in CA?
Doesn't exactly make sense.:jointsmile:
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
You dismiss the so-called "bible thumpers," yet Mormons played a huge role in robbing Californians of a perfectly reasonable right. As extrapolated in yesterdays New York Times, Mormons Tipped the Scale in Ban on Gay Marriage
Quote:
Jeff Flint, another strategist with Protect Marriage, estimated that Mormons made up 80 percent to 90 percent of the early volunteers who walked door-to-door in election precincts.
Not only did LDS supply the foot soldiers, they footed the lions share of the bill as well.
Quote:
In the end, Protect Marriage estimates, as much as half of the nearly $40 million raised on behalf of the measure was contributed by Mormons.
Simply put, the No on 8 movement lacked organization and was unable to overcome the superior ground game put into play by Yes on 8 and the LDS.
Quote:
Suggested talking points were equally precise. If initial contact indicated a prospective voter believed God created marriage, the church volunteers were instructed to emphasize that Proposition 8 would restore the definition of marriage God intended.
But if a voter indicated human beings created marriage, Script B would roll instead, emphasizing that Proposition 8 was about marriage, not about attacking gay people, and about restoring into law an earlier ban struck down by the State Supreme Court in May.
"It is not our goal in this campaign to attack the homosexual lifestyle or to convince gays and lesbians that their behavior is wrong - the less we refer to homosexuality, the better," one of the ward training documents said. "We are pro-marriage, not anti-gay."
Pro-marriage, not anti-gay? Not a chance. Divide and conquer. And now California faces the possibility of stripping some of its citizens of a guaranteed right. Freedom and justice...for some.
http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=ht...EXXWE_g0Q3AJ)G
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamblerGambler
So I'll put you down for "pro-activist judges" I guess? So you would not see a problem with "activist judges" striking down MMJ in a MMJ State where the voters had passed the measure via initiative referendum? When judges do that are they not violating the rights of every citizen?
Is the right to "get married" a right? That's news to me I guess.:wtf:
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
A right in the sense that it was added to the California constitution, not as in an inherent human right. As for the activist judges, I'm split on the issue. That term gets thrown around way too much these days and has picked up a fair amount of baggage.
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
52% voted Yes to prop 8 correct? I was very surprised that it passed in Cali :thumbsup:
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobPA
52% voted Yes to prop 8 correct? I was very surprised that it passed in Cali :thumbsup:
defeated?
ya not sure why I worded the op that way?
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
twas the religious right.
Sad on a day when so much progress had been made.
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
This sort of thing makes me hang my head as a Republican. These crazy religious a-holes make the whole party look like religious nutjobs.
I for one believe that gay people have every right to marry. Who the hell am I to say they can't? No where in the constitution does it say anything about marriage. The government of all things has no right intruding on private citizens, especially for something so ridiculous.
Damnit, my tax dollars have better things to do than this bullshit.
LET THEM MARRY!
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Hard to believe as liberal as cali is that they didn't pass this. I'm not gay but what boils my butt is how the people(bible thumpers primarily) think that this is even any of there business. I don't give a shit if you marry your goat. Its just a piece of paper. Marriage has nothing to do with religion. They all had concubines in the old days.
And as Ive said before, I'm way to right on most issues. I just don't see where this is anybodies business. Love is where you find it.
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshNugz
twas the religious right.
Sad on a day when so much progress had been made.
Oh please. You think the religious right in California passed this? hahaha. The fact is that a lot of the new black voters whom the democrats registered for Obama are very religious and don't support gay-marriage
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Apple put 100,000 bucks into fighting this. The idea of marriage in a modern society is dumb anyways. With religion losing more and more members, and people starting to shed their beliefs for ideas and truth, I don't see this being stopped in Cali for long. People are so scared of "losing their sanctity of marriage". Its funny to watch those people protest. They have no clue that marriage is just an idea and can be expanded upon to fit everyone. Why do people care about this so much. Married or not, gay people will be with gay people. We need to put all this effort into something useful.
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
I voted for it, I'm tired of activist judges overturning the will of the people and I'm against special rights in this case.
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
apple is gay? that explains the commercials!!
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Sorry, I just had to post a few pics...
:)
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
I'd say "sorry" sounds about right...
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
I wonder if there were any prominent gay activists that supported prop 8? Yes this is a serious thought, it's possible.
If I was gay, I would have supported it, as per my previous posts with regard to opposing the judges actions. I would have also opposed the initial ruling that the judges made. What good is a "victory" if it is ill-gotten? If it violated the rights of every citizen in CA gay and straight?:jointsmile:
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH
I wonder if there were any prominent gay activists that supported prop 8? Yes this is a serious thought, it's possible.
If I was gay, I would have supported it, as per my previous posts with regard to opposing the judges actions. I would have also opposed the initial ruling that the judges made. What good is a "victory" if it is ill-gotten? If it violated the rights of every citizen in CA gay and straight?:jointsmile:
I don't know about any "gay activists" but I know gay friends that voted for prop 8.
YMMV...
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamapatient
I don't know about any "gay activists" but I know gay friends that voted for prop 8.
YMMV...
Really!?
That's awesome!
To think that there are gay people out there that are not blinded by emotion, and understand how the rights they so dearly want, were in a way, completely (pardon the pun) "butt-raped prison style" by the judges that made the ruling. Those are some sincere, thoughtful, and rational gay friends you have. I am being sincere, not sarcastic.:) Those are the kind of folks that need to take the lead in the gay community.
Unfortunately as with the cannabis political movement, the current face of their political activists, are quite the opposite from what I have seen. That is just my opinion, and I realize that I just may be unaware of the fact that their are more conservative gay activists out there. I dunno, but I know that the vast majority of the "gay activists" that I see, have no issue with trompling and destroying the rights of others to get what they want.
God bless the folks that you speak of iamapatient! Realizing that they gain nothing politically if they are supporting the violation of the rights of others to get it.
:thumbsup:
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
you have more than one gay friend that voted against gay marriage?? out of 100 gay people, i would be surprised if ONE homo voted against gay marriage...how many gay friends do you have??? i don't think i even know any straight people that would vote against gay marriage!
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
you have more than one gay friend that voted against gay marriage?? out of 100 gay people, i would be surprised if ONE homo voted against gay marriage...how many gay friends do you have??? i don't think i even know any straight people that would vote against gay marriage!
I know more than one gay person (male and female) that voted for it out of about a dozen, I wouldn't consider them *all* "friends" (some are acquaintances) but some are certainly friends. Not all gay people are liberals, as some try to suggest that they should be. Not all hollywood actors are liberal, not all blacks are liberals, etc, etc. Voting FOR prop 8 wasn't anti-gay, it was anti-activist, anti-special rights and pro-will of the people...
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Pro will of the people? Since when does a bare majority constitute that? By this logic it was the will of the people to elect Al Gore back in 2000, considering he did win the popular vote. We see how that worked out.
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamblerGambler
Pro will of the people? Since when does a bare majority constitute that? By this logic it was the will of the people to elect Al Gore back in 2000, considering he did win the popular vote. We see how that worked out.
4 activist judges overturned the will of the people forcing prop 8 to come about and despite your ignorance of how things work in America, California ballot initiatives are passed by a simple majority, as intended, and Presidential elections are decided by the electoral college, as intended, so you're comparing apples to oranges.
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
how is marriage a special right?
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
how is marriage a special right?
Marriage, between a man and a woman, is not a special right, changing the definition just to make gay people happy would be. A gay man, for example, already has the same right to marry a woman as a straight man does. When you start redefining marriage you dilute it. Gays can have all of the societal benefits of marriage through civil unions without giving special rights...
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamapatient
4 activist judges overturned the will of the people forcing prop 8 to come about and despite your ignorance of how things work in America, California ballot initiatives are passed by a simple majority, as intended, and Presidential elections are decided by the electoral college, as intended, so you're comparing apples to oranges.
I was merely trying to illustrate a point, so thanks for keeping this civil not going straight for the jugular. Now, back to your will of the people, simple majority nonsense. Considering the legal challenge thats in the works, it remains to be seen a simple majority vote is legally able to change California's constitution.
Quote:
Prop 8 was not your typical "amendment" that merely tinkers with the California Constitution. It was a drastic revision that deprives a "suspect class" (gays and lesbians) of a fundamental right under equal protection. And a simple majority vote of the people is not enough to take that right away â?? especially when the purpose of equal protection is to shield minorities. While other courts have upheld marriage amendments in other states, they have different Constitutions â?? and court rulings have changed considerably in a short period of time. And unlike many states, California has explicitly found sexual orientation to be a "suspect class." If the Court overrules Prop 8, it will be a powerful affirmation for justice â?? capping what has been a powerful year of "change."
Quote:
Even if voters pass a Constitutional Amendment, the courts can still decide if it was merely an "amendment" â?? or a substantive "revision." And if it was a "revision," voter approval by a simple majority is not enough â?? it also requires an okay by the state legislature (which probably wouldnâ??t happen), or a constitutional convention. Why the distinction? Because mere "amendments" tinker around the edges; "revisions" are far more fundamental changes.
And the Courts have thrown out such changes to the Constitution as "revisions" under the right circumstances [...]
Likewise, Prop 8 is a drastic "revision" (if not moreso) because it violates equal protection for a minority group.
Last May, the California Supreme Court found that depriving same-sex couples the right to marry violated equal protection â?? and that LGBT people are a "suspect class." A "suspect class" is a group that has suffered discrimination and needs protection. The central purpose behind equal protection is to protect unpopular minorities from a political majority who could take away their rights. You canâ??t simply change the Constitution by majority vote to take away the right of gay people to marry â?? because that right comes from the equal protection clause. As Herrera wrote in his brief, "without a judiciary that has the final word on equal protection, there simply is no such thing as equal protection."
BeyondChron: San Francisco's Alternative Online Daily News » Why Prop 8 Can â?? and Must â?? Be Overruled
Quote:
All six challenges argue that Proposition 8 was an improper method of amending the California constitution and flouted the Supreme Court's ruling last year striking down the state's prior ban on gay marriage. Among other things, the lawsuits seek an immediate stay of the renewed gay marriage ban, a move Brown opposes because it would create further legal uncertainty for couples deciding to wed as the legal battle winds through the Supreme Court.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_11006520
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamblerGambler
it remains to be seen a simple majority vote is legally able to change California's constitution.
BeyondChron: San Francisco's Alternative Online Daily News
Prop 8 wasn't the first time the California Constitution has been amended by ballot initiative. While most propositions only change penal/civil code that's not always the case. Check Prop 13, another California Constitutional amendment passed by the will of the people. Prop 13 was more popular than prop 8 but as I already stated, the California Constitution allows ballot initiatives to pass with a simple majority. In order to invalidate that they'd have to change the California Constitution to say that ballot initiatives (that amend the California Constitution) need to pass by more. Just because gays are going to sue doesn't mean they'll win.
"BeyondChron: San Francisco's Alternative Online Daily News"
What do you expect from SF "media", besides liberal propaganda? SF is a joke to most of California...
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamblerGambler
it remains to be seen a simple majority vote is legally able to change California's constitution.
No, actually it doesn't remain to be seen. There is an established legal process, it's called voter initiative referendum, in CA voters are allowed to propose constitutional changes, as well as legislation. There is nothing that remains to be seen. While I personally disagree with the whole process, it is what it is, and the "anti-gay marriage" groups did everything within their means to advance their agenda. There is nothing wrong with that, and they are not trying to suppress any other political groups actions, meaning no one is preventing the gay marriage activists from putting their own Constitutional amendment forward.
Actually, the "pro-gay marriage" crowd, could use the same process to work towards their political goal.
Anyone can file a lawsuit, filing a lawsuit does not constitute jack shit, except that someone filed a lawsuit.:thumbsup:
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH
There is nothing wrong with that, and they are not trying to suppress any other political groups actions, meaning no one is preventing the gay marriage activists from putting their own Constitutional amendment forward.
Actually, the "pro-gay marriage" crowd, could use the same process to work towards their political goal.
They certainly could (and I expect they will) get signatures to put *another* proposition on the ballot re-amending the constitution but it will fail because even more people will be against the attempt to subvert (yet again) the will of the people.
California Secretary of State - Elections & Voter Information - Initiative Guide
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
i wonder if americans were similarly upset about extending 'special' rights to slaves by redefining them as human beings
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
i wonder if americans were similarly upset about extending 'special' rights to slaves by redefining them as human beings
Another apples to oranges comparison. Imagine that...
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
How is it apples and oranges? Should America have listened to the "will of the people" when southern states wanted to keep Americans separate but equal? When the "will of the people" of certain states decided to sunder this nation over slavery? Maladroit raises a decent point, but you dismiss it out of hand. Imagine that.
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamblerGambler
How is it apples and oranges? Maladroit raises a decent point, but you dismiss it out of hand. Imagine that.
You're just mad because you like apples to oranges comparisons. It's not the same because nobody is saying gay people aren't human. Special rights for gay people is not the same as equal rights for an entire race or sex, no matter how much you think it is. I dismiss it because it's a ridiculous comparison, like apples to oranges or electoral college to voter initiatives.
Imagine that...
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamapatient
Of course they will that's a given. It was 694K signatures last time, it will be slightly higher this time, but no doubt there is no reason why they could not get a ballot initiative done. There lies the problem, what will happen if it loses? Try to get it overturned in state supreme court, oh no wait that's what they did already, nevermind.:wtf:
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
i still don't think getting married is a special right for ANYONE...it smells of prejudice (no offense) to even put such a question to a referendum...it wasn't that long ago that homosexuals were thrown in prisons and homosexual sex between consenting adults is *still* a crime in parts of america...would you put that to a vote too?
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamapatient
You're just mad because you like apples to oranges comparisons. It's not the same because nobody is saying gay people aren't human. Special rights for gay people is not the same as equal rights for an entire race or sex, no matter how much you think it is. I dismiss it because it's a ridiculous comparison, like apples to oranges or electoral college to voter initiatives.
Imagine that...
How do you like them apples! LOL Sorry could not resist! Just poking a little fun, just thought that was funny.:D
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
it smells of prejudice (no offense) to even put such a question to a referendum...
would you put that to a vote too?
You're one of "those" that think that people who are against "illegal immigration" are just anti-Mexican racists too, right?
Again, apples to oranges and completely ridiculous...
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
i still don't think getting married is a special right for ANYONE...it smells of prejudice (no offense) to even put such a question to a referendum...it wasn't that long ago that homosexuals were thrown in prisons and homosexual sex between consenting adults is *still* a crime in parts of america...would you put that to a vote too?
Hmmm?
I see an enforcement issue there. But where I used to live, gay male prostitutes would get busted at a local park, and many times it was not by a sting, it was both parties, I would have to really really check to be 100%, but I believe that there was some kind of additional charge for sodomy, specifically to the aspect that it was "the gay" sex. Maybe I am just crazy, I dunno, but I am pretty sure there are some laws like that.
Enforcement however, in light of an incident like I described, would be kind of hairy and messy if you know what I mean. I would not think that it would be practical. Plus, the re-offense rate once someone is in the joint! Could you imagine? I mean, I heard that there might be some gay sex that happens there, no personal experience so I am just speculating I guess.
Maybe to your bigger point, about putting it to the people in the form of initiative referendum, I don't believe it is the best process for legislation that a state government could do. Just my opinion, but we do elect people represent us on each and every level of government, that's usually their job, to me the ballot initiative is more direct democracy as opposed to a far superior form of government, a representative republic, which most states model, at least where I previously lived did.
I still don't see why someone hasn't made a constitutional amendment to eliminate the state income tax. I am sure you could get signatures for that.
There are good points to voter based initiatives, however I just think the negatives far outway the good, in my mind anyway.
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Just to be politically correct, in the previous post I used the term, "gay male" prostitutes.
I was in no way implying that all male prostitutes are gay! I would not want anyone to get all bent outta shape. Honestly I just assumed that these male prostitutes were gay,
I mean, they were doing other guys.:)
-
Prop 8 California Defeated? WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxfire342
Oh please. You think the religious right in California passed this? hahaha. The fact is that a lot of the new black voters whom the democrats registered for Obama are very religious and don't support gay-marriage
My bad...okay just religious people???
But come on, was my statement that bad...i'd be willing to bet more right than left voted for it.
prove me wrong though...
