bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Washington, Baghdad complete draft plan on U.S. troop presence
Last Updated: Wednesday, October 15, 2008
The Associated Press
The United States and Iraq have agreed to a draft security pact that requires U.S. troops to leave Iraq by the end of 2011 unless asked to stay, the Iraqi government said on Wednesday, although its implementation is far from certain.
Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh also said Baghdad will seek an extension of a UN mandate for the U.S. troops in Iraq â?? due to expire on Dec. 31 â?? if the pact is not in place by the end of this year.
The draft agreement also lets Iraq try U.S. troops for felonies committed off-duty. The concession on the legal immunity for U.S. forces represents the biggest bone of contention, Bush administration officials who asked not to be named told the Associated Press.
The draft, reached after months of halting and often tense talks, contains elements that are expected to further aggravate an already difficult effort to get the Iraqi government and parliament on board, the officials said.
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
"I believe strongly that politicians in Washington shouldn't be telling generals how to do their job. And I believe artificial timetables of withdrawal would be a mistake. An artificial timetable of withdrawal would say to an enemy, just wait them out; it would say to the Iraqis, don't do hard things necessary to achieve our objectives; and it would be discouraging for our troops. And therefore I will strongly reject an artificial timetable withdrawal and/or Washington politicians trying to tell those who wear the uniform how to do their job."
- President George W Bush, Commander-in-Flipfloppery, April 2007
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
The Iraqi president has been trying to get us out of iraq for months. Its time to leave.If Obama was smart, jan 1st he should start the withdrawal.
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
question:
would you change your mind that it is time to leave if you knew with certainty that the us puppet government in iraq (or afghanistan) would fail without protection of the united states?
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
question:
would you change your mind that it is time to leave if you knew with certainty that the us puppet government in iraq (or afghanistan) would fail without protection of the united states?
We shouldn't have government over there. We shouldn't give them money, it's not our job, it's their job..We've invested enough of our money into Iraq and I think it's time for it to be spent here instead.
I'm more concerned what happens to my government than what happens to someone else's government at this point.
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
question:
would you change your mind that it is time to leave if you knew with certainty that the us puppet government in iraq (or afghanistan) would fail without protection of the united states?
UNREAL! The PEOPLE didn't vote in their elections did they? Iraq isn't sitting down with negotiations with either Iran OR China are they? "Puppet government"....sounds like some crap from a leftist blog.
Have a good one!:s4:
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
iraq has a puppet government primarily because the government was set up under a foreign military occupation....iraq's government is protected and controlled by the united states government who can set up military checkpoints and conduct unauthorized airstrikes on civilian targets...US troops are immune from prosecution under iraqi law...iraq's government can't even get the usa to leave the country on it's own terms - it has to submit applications to the US gov't for approval...the US government is even spying on their iraqi puppets...if your government allowed russian military to occupy america in the same way, i'd say the same thing about washington
the governments of iraq and afghanistan will probably fail after foreign troops leave, and be replaced with some hardline islamic nutters
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
question:
would you change your mind that it is time to leave if you knew with certainty that the us puppet government in iraq (or afghanistan) would fail without protection of the united states?
In reality from what i've read its no US puppet government, but it could be a Iran puppet government. I've read where Iran has put some people in some powerful positions in Iraq. More reason for us to just get out. As long as religion has such a strangle hold on the people in the middle east there will never be peace.
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
controlled by the united states government who can set up military checkpoints and conduct unauthorized airstrikes on civilian targets
You've just managed to lose all credibility with me. What did the U.S. ever do to you to make you hate it so much?:wtf:
Have a good one!:s4:
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
i don't hate the united states...i take at least two vacation there a year, and some of my best friends are americans...criticizing the US government is not the same thing as hating america: if that were true, republicans who criticized bill clinton would have been anti-american
my quote that destroyed my credibility with you is true...the usa military doesn't ask for permission to set up military checkpoints or conduct airstrikes in civilian areas...they move around where they like by land and air despite opposition from the public and the government
puppet government is not just crap from some leftist blog...it's in the US army field manual:
paragraph 366:
Local Governments Under Duress and Puppet Governments
The restrictions placed upon the authority of a belligerent government cannot be avoided by a system of using a puppet government, central or local, to carry out acts which would be unlawful if performed directly by the occupant. Acts induced or compelled by the occupant are nonetheless its acts.
FM 27-10 Chptr 6 Occupation
if the usa had invaded the country and left the government essentially intact (after whacking hussein), then iraq might still be a sovereign country...instead, the usa disbanded the entire system of government, banned people from the bathist party from participating in government, disbanded the police force, and disbanded the entire army and sent them home WITH THEIR GUNS (probably the worst decision in the occupation of iraq)...in the ensuing vaccuum, the usa created and appointed an interim government, rebuilt/trained/equipped the military, cooked up a kangaroo court to try hussein and his cronies (who were kept in US military custody), and locked up tens of thousands of iraqis and foreign nationals indefinitely without trial in american prisons...that's a puppet government
iraq has elections now, but it does not have true sovereignty as long as the military occupation continues, and iraq does not have authority over the activities of the US military...the usa is still arresting people in iraq without trial and detaining 15,000 prisoners in an american prison in iraq, most of whom are innocent enough to release:
U.S. brings Iraq prison camp out of black hole - International Herald Tribune
if all that was being done in america by russian forces, wouldn't you question the sovereignity of your country and the legitimacy of your government? i think it is possible and desirable for iraq to stand on its own, but the US occupation weakens the legitimacy of, and domestic support for iraq's new government
i bet president obama will maintain the occupation, and tag it with some cheery slogan
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
I agree...is it so shocking to the good ol' fashion Americans that the United States has caused numerous coups, endorsed countless dictators, and set up puppet governments. There were so many in fact...one particular one having to do with Iran was Shah Rasa.
Georgia, I personally consider to be a puppet government by the US currently, which is a damn shame really...
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
"i take at least two vacation there a year, and some of my best friends are americans."
"...or conduct airstrikes in civilian areas"
Well, the good thing is that you don't have a vote in November and the bad thing is that you don't have a clue:
How many Iraqi provinces have been turned over to COMPLETE Iraqi control now? Didn't Iraq just negotiate a deal with Iran? Isn't Iraq in negotiations with China for oil rights? Is this something that we'd ALLOW our puppets to do?
Quite the "occupation" we have going on there. Just like Russia OR China would do right? You say you don't hate the U.S.; you either lie or your just jealous of what we got here.
Have a good one!:s4:
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
yeah that's right, i'm jealous...i wish my government doubled our national debt and opened a torture chamber in a concentration camp on foreign soil and kickstarted a global economic crisis...canada SUCKS!
going back to the puppet status:
the us state department opened iraq's oil to international no-bid contracts:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/30/wo...0contract.html
the $3 billion contract with china is a drop in the bucket that western oil corporations will get, and is equal to less than 1% of the crap the usa imports from china...but that's got almost nothing to do with the oil motive behind the invasion of iraq
before the invasion, iraq got permission from the UN to sell it's oil in euros...now that the usa is in charge, all iraq's oil is sold in US dollars including the oil to china...control of iraq's oil is more important to US national security than who gets the oil because the US dollar might crash along with the US economy if the world's second largest reserves of crude oil suddenly started selling in euros:
CNN.com - U.N. to let Iraq sell oil for euros, not dollars - October 30, 2000
guess who else recently stopped selling oil in US dollars? IRAN!
Iran Ends Oil Transactions In U.S. Dollars, OPEC's Second-Largest Producer Now Pegs Petroleum To Euros And Yen - CBS News
when iraq starts selling its oil in euros, i might believe they are independent of the usa
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud
the bad thing is that you don't have a clue:
How many Iraqi provinces have been turned over to COMPLETE Iraqi control now? Didn't Iraq just negotiate a deal with Iran? Isn't Iraq in negotiations with China for oil rights? Is this something that we'd ALLOW our puppets to do?
Quite the "occupation" we have going on there. Just like Russia OR China would do right?
Guess my statement was true since you didn't answer the questions. As for this "euro" crap...how many middle eastern countries are pegged to the U.S.D. as compared to the Euro? Are all countries pegged to the U.S.D. our "puppet governments"? How about ones pegged to the Euro, are they puppets of Europe?
As for the oil....LOL, seems to me that CANADA decided to play the back door thing and try to negotiate oil contracts with the Kurds without going through the central government of Iraq. Isn't that kind of a "vulture" thing to do? After all the killing is done they decide to go in to pick the bones of Iraq. I'll bet that OUR soldiers even gave these vultures security while they were there.
Have a good one!:s4:
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud
Guess my statement was true since you didn't answer the questions. As for this "euro" crap...how many middle eastern countries are pegged to the U.S.D. as compared to the Euro? Are all countries pegged to the U.S.D. our "puppet governments"? How about ones pegged to the Euro, are they puppets of Europe?
As for the oil....LOL, seems to me that CANADA decided to play the back door thing and try to negotiate oil contracts with the Kurds without going through the central government of Iraq. Isn't that kind of a "vulture" thing to do? After all the killing is done they decide to go in to pick the bones of Iraq. I'll bet that OUR soldiers even gave these vultures security while they were there.
Have a good one!:s4:
Wanna know the worst part?
........
We'll buy that oil from Canada, at jacked up prices. Know why? Cuz we sure as shit aren't getting any from the Liberated.
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
...canada SUCKS!
No...IMHO Canada doesn't suck...it's the liberal attitudes of moral indifference. Kinda frustrating when we, as a society, don't agree with your "values", 'eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
You act as if this is unnatural. Who is guarding their oil infrastructuer from outside (terror) influences? Who is keeping their power grid up-n-running? Who has the contracts for oil field firefighting and infrastructure rebuilding? How long do you think these contracts are for?
"United States officials are directly advising Iraq on a host of issues, from electricity to education. But they have avoided the limelight when questions turn to how Iraq should manage its oil endowment, insisting that a decision must rest with the Iraqi government" (from above cited article)
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
before the invasion, iraq got permission from the UN to sell it's oil in euros...now that the usa is in charge, all iraq's oil is sold in US dollars including the oil to china...control of iraq's oil is more important to US national security than who gets the oil because the US dollar might crash along with the US economy if the world's second largest reserves of crude oil suddenly started selling in euros:
CNN.com - U.N. to let Iraq sell oil for euros, not dollars - October 30, 2000
Twas reportedly a political ploy of Saddam Obama's to punitively 'punish' their enemy, the USA. By the way...did you notice the date-stamp for the story...?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
Yeah...a big surprise there. Problem with this revelation is...Iran has been on this financial course since, what...2006?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
when iraq starts selling its oil in euros, i might believe they are independent of the usa
Thank goodness we do not depend on your 'belief' to get us thru the logistics of drilling, pumping, transporting thru hundreds of miles of pipes, and shipping that oil in a quasi-battlefield situation. With oilfield worker support, security and logistics we have provided, and continue to provide...I'd be pretty friggin pissed if there were no considerations by the host country to work with us instead of against us. After all...there's more to Iraq than oil sales and delivery.
Also...I can gurantee there's no purple dye on your finger, and likely you were not there to see the democratic vote that went down, were you? You were not there to see the changes in the attitudes and actions of the indigenous peoples, were you? You simply read liberal bullshit, find a couple of (old) links...and parrot those that parrot the party line. Sure would love to see some original (intelligent) thought.
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
"Are all countries pegged to the U.S.D. our "puppet governments"?"
- of course not - only the countries that have been invaded, had their governments deposed and replaced, and are currently under foreign military occupation are puppet governments
"How about ones pegged to the Euro, are they puppets of Europe? "
- of course not - they haven't been invaded, had their governments deposed and replaced, and are occupied by european troops
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
"You act as if this is unnatural. Who is guarding their oil infrastructuer from outside (terror) influences? Who is keeping their power grid up-n-running? Who has the contracts for oil field firefighting and infrastructure rebuilding?"
- it is natural for the usa military to guard it's investment after it invaded the country, replaced the government, and conducted an open ended military occupation of it's puppet government...it is a legal obligation under the laws of war
"did you notice the date-stamp for the story...?"
- yeppers...it was the same date dick cheney and donald rumsfeld published their plans to take over the middle east oil reserves:
"REBUILDING AMERICA'S DEFENSES" â?? A Summary
"Iran has been on this financial course since, what...2006?"
- even longer than that, and george bush has been rattling his war sabre at them the entire time
"Sure would love to see some original (intelligent) thought. "
- me too...the bush doctrine is outdated garbage now
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
"You act as if this is unnatural. Who is guarding their oil infrastructuer from outside (terror) influences? Who is keeping their power grid up-n-running? Who has the contracts for oil field firefighting and infrastructure rebuilding?"
- it is natural for the usa military to guard it's investment after it invaded the country, replaced the government, and conducted an open ended military occupation of it's puppet government...it is a legal obligation under the laws of war
"did you notice the date-stamp for the story...?"
- yeppers...it was the same date dick cheney and donald rumsfeld published their plans to take over the middle east oil reserves:
"REBUILDING AMERICA'S DEFENSES" â?? A Summary
"Iran has been on this financial course since, what...2006?"
- even longer than that, and george bush has been rattling his war sabre at them the entire time
"Sure would love to see some original (intelligent) thought. "
- me too...the bush doctrine is outdated garbage now
Let's cut to the chase. The "war," IMO was really about securing resources, a military strategic base for the middle east while at the same time artificially propping up the economy. After all, before 2003 the economy was heading into further recession and Bush needed to do something to combat these 3 problems. With one feel swoop, Bush ignited the economy, securing future oil resources for America and we are going to be in Iraq forever baby. Do you actually believe because of this security pact, troops are going to leave?
While this is biting us in the ass now because of the current state of the economy, the war in Iraq at the time was a necessary evil.
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Blind faith in government is the greatest threat to democracy the world has ever seen.
Not communism.
Not terrorism.
Nothing tops it.
Even if we are the greatest country in the world, it doesn't mean we can't be better.
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
- it is natural for the usa military to guard it's investment after it invaded the country, replaced the government, and conducted an open ended military occupation of it's puppet government...it is a legal obligation under the laws of war
Still parroting those that parrot the left-wing gospel, huh...? Your knowledge of the matter is quite impressive...been watching NBC too much, huh?
"did you notice the date-stamp for the story...?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
Yup...I hear that the Canadians are guarding it for us.
It's kinda funny how someone can actually believe the drivvel some bloggers get y'all to believe. But then...it's not rocket scientists that they play to, either. Their base is made-up of nothing but sheep that wish they could think for themselves. Can't even find an up-to-date story to misquote, misapply and misunderstand, huh?
Your revisionist history is remarkably inept, without fact...and quite amusing. You mention nothing of the IAEA reports leading up to the invasion, (and subsequent eviction of the IAEA inspectors by Saddam) US attempts to in the UN reign-in the Saddam regime's persistent intention to aquire nukes, (t'was the world view regardless of what side of the aisle you represent) the US stopping at Iraq's borders in the first gulf war, (as removing the Iraqi invaders out of Kuwait was the mission, and not one drop of Iraqi oil was touched) and Saddam's increasing rhetoric regarding his aquisition of nukes, which spawned how many UN (security council and general assembly) resolutions in an attempt to discourage his continued folly?
Your attempts fell short. Better luck next time. :jointsmile:
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
"Still parroting those that parrot the left-wing gospel, huh...?"
- i am a liberal, but opposition to US foreign policy is not a left-right thing unless being a right winger automatically means supporting international crime...even conservatives admit that:
'I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing. International law ... would have required us to leave Saddam Hussein alone.'
- Richard Pearle, Defense Secretary advisor and architect of the invasion of iraq, Nov/03
"Can't even find an up-to-date story to misquote, misapply and misunderstand, huh?"
- the report was written only 8 years ago by richard pearle, dick cheney, and donald rumsfeld, and put into action by the same people after they got back into the federal government...if you think any of that isn't true, good luck finding an up-to-date story to prove it
"You mention nothing of the IAEA reports leading up to the invasion, (and subsequent eviction of the IAEA inspectors by Saddam)"
- your inept revisionist history isn't amusing - it's sad...the IAEA didn't find WMD, and it was george bush who pulled the UN weapons inspectors out of iraq...sorry if these links are too old for you - that's the trouble with ancient history; the news media is obsessed with current events:
interview with chief US weapons inspector and head of IAEA:
Transcript: Director General's CNN Interview - 21 March 2004
US warns weapons inspectors to leave iraq:
USATODAY.com - U.S advises weapons inspectors to leave Iraq
"US attempts to in the UN reign-in the Saddam regime's persistent intention to aquire nukes"
- that was a good policy...so good in fact, that it was successful...the rest of the foreign policy on iraq: not so much
"the US stopping at Iraq's borders in the first gulf war"
- why would i mention something that happened during a legal war in 1991 in a discussion about an illegal war in 2003? can't even find an up-to-date story to misquote, misapply and misunderstand, huh?
"Saddam's increasing rhetoric regarding his aquisition of nukes"
- this should be good: please post hussein's quotes about his acquisition of nuclear weapons in the leadup to the invasion of iraq...all i could find was increasing rhetoric regarding saddam's acquisition of nukes from american politicians...meanwhile, hussein was cooperating with weapons inspectors, and disclosing the FACT that he didn't have WMD
bush administration signs cut-and-run deal in iraq
Iraqis hold huge rally demanding rejection of security pact with U.S.
Published: Saturday, October 18, 2008 | 11:30 AM ET
Canadian Press: Hamza Hendawi, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
BAGHDAD - Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr on Saturday called on Iraq's parliament to reject a U.S.-Iraqi security pact as tens of thousands of his followers rallied in Baghdad against the deal.
The mass public show of opposition came as U.S. and Iraqi leaders face a Dec. 31 deadline to ratify the agreement, which would replace an expiring United Nations mandate authorizing the U.S.-led forces in Iraq.
Al-Sadr's message was read by his aide Sheik Abdul-Hadi al-Mohammadawi before a huge crowd of mostly young men waving Iraqi and green Shiite flags and chanting slogans including "No, no to the agreement" and "Yes to Iraq."
"The Iraqi government has abandoned its duty before God and its people and referred the agreement to you knowing that ratifying it will stigmatize Iraq and its government for years to come," he said.
"I am with every Sunni, Shiite or Christian who is opposed to the agreement ... and I reject, condemn and renounce the presence of occupying forces and basis on our beloved land," the message added.
Al-Sadr, who is living in Iran, also cast doubt on the Iraqi government's argument that the security pact is a step toward ending the U.S. presence in Iraq. The deal would require U.S. forces to leave by Dec. 31, 2011, unless Iraq asked some of them to stay.
"If they tell you that the agreement ends the presence of the occupation, let me tell you that the occupier will retain its bases. And whoever tells you that it gives us sovereignty is a liar," al-Sadr said. "I am confident that you brothers in parliament will champion the will of the people over that of the occupier ... Do not betray the people."
The demonstrators marched from the main Shiite district of Sadr City to the more central Mustansiriyah Square in eastern Baghdad.
"No, No to America," shouted one man, wearing a white robe as he sat in a wheelchair and clutched a poster of the Iraqi flag. "We prefer death to giving concessions."
Security was tight with Iraqi security forces manning checkpoints on sidestreets and snipers on rooftops. Iraqi Humvees controlled all the roads leading to the square. Giant Iraqi flags covered nearby buildings.
One banner in English said: "We refuse the existence of the U.S. in Iraq."
************************************************** ****************
March 2008 Poll of iraqis - 72% oppose the presence of foreign troops in iraq
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...lmarch2008.pdf
