My Argument Against God

Sup everyone, here's a little argument I made up to try to disprove the existence of god.. feel free to criticize and point out flaws, I wanna make it a very strong argument... Anyway cheers, and enjoy :)

P1: If god exists, he has existed forever, and nothing has existed before him.
P2: Therefore, god must have existed for an infinite period of time before the present.
P3: There is no reason for a god to exist but not cause any other existence.
P4: Therefore, god must have created the world as soon as he began to exist.
P5: If god created the world as soon as he began to exist, there is a finite time period between
the beginning of the world and the present.
P6: But god has never begun to exist, as he has existed forever.
P7: Therefore there is an infinite time period between the beginning of the world and the
present.
P8: P5 and P7 could not possibly be true at the same time.
C: Therefore, god does not exist.

Come on, I know there are tonnes of theists out there who would love to prove me wrong...

I have a couple:

- who created god?
- if you religous people really know so much more than atheists, then why are you always wrong?
- if god really does exist, why would he want his believers brainwashed to obey all authority and start endless bloodshed whenever their leaders want to? If he really does want this, god sucks. But if he doesn't, then all you religous people are just pissing god off and only the atheists please him.

Sorry for the exaggerations and generalizations, I'm just trying to prove a point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by THClord

I have a couple:

- who created god?
- if you religous people really know so much more than atheists, then why are you always wrong?
- if god really does exist, why would he want his believers brainwashed to obey all authority and start endless bloodshed whenever their leaders want to? If he really does want this, god sucks. But if he doesn't, then all you religous people are just pissing god off and only the atheists please him.

Sorry for the exaggerations and generalizations, I'm just trying to prove a point.

---

Hahaha bro did you read the argument? Did you even read the title of the thread? I'm not arguing for god..........I'm an atheist..... What the fuck...

I don't really get why anyone argues about religion. It's something that almost never ends well and no one ever gets "swayed to the other side". We need to respect others choices, that goes for both believers and atheists. The idea of live and let live could solve a lot of problems in this world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by THClord

I have a couple:
- who created god?

---

Not every question can be answered

Quote:

---

- if you religous people really know so much more than atheists, then why are you always wrong?

---

Not all believers act like they know it all. There are know it alls everywhere. Especially atheists. And how can we be wrong if it is impossible to prove us wrong?

Quote:

---

- if god really does exist, why would he want his believers brainwashed to obey all authority and start endless bloodshed whenever their leaders want to? If he really does want this, god sucks. But if he doesn't, then all you religous people are just pissing god off and only the atheists please him.

---

Soooooo Easy. Think about it. Would you want your children to have natural love for you or would you want "artificial" love. He gives us all our own mind to think for ourselves, and just like your parents he is not going to interfere within your whole life. People create problems, it is our obligation to fix them


When has anyone dispoved God? You cant because its impossible. Pretty much all the reasons an atheist uses, the same reasons can be used to disprove his/her own theories. Then where are we at the end of the day? The exact same spot.
Either you believe or you dont. Period

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L Rag

Sup everyone, here's a little argument I made up to try to disprove the existence of god.. feel free to criticize and point out flaws, I wanna make it a very strong argument... Anyway cheers, and enjoy :)

P1: If god exists, he has existed forever, and nothing has existed before him.
P2: Therefore, god must have existed for an infinite period of time before the present.
P3: There is no reason for a god to exist but not cause any other existence.
P4: Therefore, god must have created the world as soon as he began to exist.
P5: If god created the world as soon as he began to exist, there is a finite time period between
the beginning of the world and the present.
P6: But god has never begun to exist, as he has existed forever.
P7: Therefore there is an infinite time period between the beginning of the world and the
present.
P8: P5 and P7 could not possibly be true at the same time.
C: Therefore, god does not exist.

---

You will be respected here.You have some good point of views,but explain this too me......can you explain a 120% in increased storms,the Tsuamni,plague slowly coming into the world?

The Prohecy's are coming correct,God made it clear the time they would come true,when man douted his existance.I can understand why some of you may be turned off,but soon I believe your mind will be changed.

Well maybe your idea of what "god" is has been perverted by religion. God isn't some man with a beard living in the sky creating things for fun. God is everything, god is infinite. God is the substance of existance.


Of course, this is just one way to look at the world if you like the idea of a god.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L Rag

Sup everyone, here's a little argument I made up to try to disprove the existence of god.. feel free to criticize and point out flaws, I wanna make it a very strong argument... Anyway cheers, and enjoy :)

P1: If god exists, he has existed forever, and nothing has existed before him.
P2: Therefore, god must have existed for an infinite period of time before the present.
P3: There is no reason for a god to exist but not cause any other existence.
P4: Therefore, god must have created the world as soon as he began to exist.

---

P3 is just your opinion, so your proof is invalid. Especially if you look at the matter from the perspective that god is existance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by THClord

- who created god?

---

Not every question can be answered

---

Exactly my point

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L Rag

Sup everyone, here's a little argument I made up to try to disprove the existence of god.. feel free to criticize and point out flaws, I wanna make it a very strong argument... Anyway cheers, and enjoy :)

P1: If god exists, he has existed forever, and nothing has existed before him.
P2: Therefore, god must have existed for an infinite period of time before the present.
P3: There is no reason for a god to exist but not cause any other existence.
P4: Therefore, god must have created the world as soon as he began to exist.
P5: If god created the world as soon as he began to exist, there is a finite time period between
the beginning of the world and the present.
P6: But god has never begun to exist, as he has existed forever.
P7: Therefore there is an infinite time period between the beginning of the world and the
present.
P8: P5 and P7 could not possibly be true at the same time.
C: Therefore, god does not exist.

---

P3 is your downfall man. I wish you the best of luck with this argument, but your assumption that there is no reason for a god to exist without creating another existence may seem reasonable to us, but when applied to the concept of GOD, an omnipotent, omniscient being who controls and sees everything, doesnt quite make sense. we cannot presume to know what makes 'sense' to a God that presumably is the most powerful, intelligent, self-sufficient being in the universe. Also, the thing about people using religion to start wars isn't fair to religion. Those wars are the product of man's greed and ignorance in most every case, not the actual will of 'God'. Peace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by THClord

Exactly my point

---

OK then you could use that same argument about the universe. How was the universe created? How was something as complex as a seed created from fire(the big bang)?
See, I can use your exact same reasoning to what you say

Man... P3 is indeed the downfall of your reasoning. Do you have a good reason for why it should be true?

(PS. BTW God exists, so dont spend too much time trying to prove the opposite... :thumbsup:)

On the subject of "god":

Before one may prove or disprove the existence or nature of "God" one must first define what "God" IS.

If i were to define god, i would say that there is no singular deffenition, that god is all of all; infinite infinity.

all that has ever existed and will exist is "God".

in my eyes, all of reality is a zero point singularity of infinity. from an outside persepctive (of which cannot exist) it would appear to eb a single speck of all color and no color. a fluxuating pinprick bright/black light. however, to be outside of existence is to exist somewhere else, bringing yourself to a new area of existence. we cannot exist outside ourselves, so how can we know we exist?


All of existence is real, all of reality exists, and all of it is equally infinite and finite.

that which is, is that which it is, and inside everything are smaller things, and all things build up toward larger things. Existence is microscopic, macroscopic and infinite in both directions.


the root of infinity, the basis of consciousness, of awareness, is God.

Seeing as "eternity" isn't something that can be imagined, existence should, theoretically be eternal. However, we don't know that the universe doesn't just collapse/create itself in a continous cycle, and that it hasn't just been doing so eternally.

The problem with this whole disproving/proving God argument is that nothing can ever be proven 100%. If God came down right now and spoke to you, it is still entirely possible that you're in a coma and it's just your imagination. We can never prove anything, EVER. Even if you see a video of someone killing someone else, it is possible theoretically that "they" could just be a shapeshifting alien from a far away galaxy. Nothing is proveable.

For all we know, God could have been puffin on a J for a few bazillion years before creating us. Maybe we're the product of a haze induced trip. I hope so. That'd be so ironic. Imagine that shit, if Bush goes before God and God's like "Shit man, shoulda legalized maui, douche bag," - then throws him in the pit of flames.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BathingApes

Imagine that shit, if Bush goes before God and God's like "Shit man, shoulda legalized maui, douche bag," - then throws him in the pit of flames.

---

hahah :smokin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Readytoride08

You will be respected here.You have some good point of views,but explain this too me......can you explain a 120% in increased storms,the Tsuamni,plague slowly coming into the world?

The Prohecy's are coming correct,God made it clear the time they would come true,when man douted his existance.I can understand why some of you may be turned off,but soon I believe your mind will be changed.

---

HA@! what you call god someone might call global warming... resurrection = resuscitation.. so on and on and on and on....

+ all these natural disasters happened before... tsunamis are recorded from the 1600's in that region... and it will happen again.. and god will kill all the infidels once again in a few 100 years ( because of poor infrastructure...) what is true is that humans are fucking up the atmosphere... but don't worry, "god" (HA!) will correct that during the next ice age coming up... :thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L Rag

Sup everyone, here's a little argument I made up to try to disprove the existence of god.. feel free to criticize and point out flaws, I wanna make it a very strong argument... Anyway cheers, and enjoy :)

P1: If god exists, he has existed forever, and nothing has existed before him.
P2: Therefore, god must have existed for an infinite period of time before the present.
P3: There is no reason for a god to exist but not cause any other existence.
P4: Therefore, god must have created the world as soon as he began to exist.
P5: If god created the world as soon as he began to exist, there is a finite time period between
the beginning of the world and the present.
P6: But god has never begun to exist, as he has existed forever.
P7: Therefore there is an infinite time period between the beginning of the world and the
present.
P8: P5 and P7 could not possibly be true at the same time.
C: Therefore, god does not exist.

---

L Rag... i wanted to give you some feedback on your argument like you asked for. I guess the way I see it is that while it may be a great example of your personal belief on the existence of reality (including all things like god, the universe, etc), it is not a philosophically sound argument.


For instance in P1.
If god exists, he has existed forever, and nothing has existed before him.

Time and god just don't mix logically. Time is a part of the very fabric of our physical universe limiting its effects only to things of this universe. Time is often misunderstood. It is not a set, constant thing or "speed of existence" but something that can be manipulated and changed just like a rubber band can be or anything in our universe. It is not an absolute measurement of all existence. It is only a relative measurement to that which resides within its boundaries. The concept of a being who created this existence obviously must be from outside of the "newly" created existence and therefore outside any laws or boundaries of it including the concept of "time."

So when you say "nothing has existed before him," it is an illogical statement because "before" is a description of time (past, present, future) of which has no relation or consequence to a being outside of it.

Hope I am making sense... i am really tired after working all day and that bowl is putting me to sleep fast. Feel free to ask clarity on anything I said.

Again, I think it is a fascinating expression of your reality of the world. It's kinda like abstract mental poetry and I would express it from that angle as opposed to an argument.

as an agnostic (that would be someone who believes in a God, just not religion) i would have to say that your logic is flawed across the board. absence of evidence is not evidence.

the existence, or lack of existence, of a supreme, omniscient being who takes a personal interest in my daily life is a concept i have great difficulty getting my head around, it just doesn't make sense to me.

that being said, i have survived experiences in my life that should have killed me or earned me a private room with rubber wallpaper.
maybe it wasn't 'God' that saved me, maybe it was just dumb luck.

frankly, for me at least, it's moot. i believe we each choose to be 'God-like' or we slide into evil.
in other words, we can either choose to be good people, never hurting others willfully, never screwing anyone over (even someone who has screwed you over), never being dishonest, never giving in to the baser instincts we all have (we are all animals after all).
or we can choose to hurt anyone we please, we can screw everyone we come into contact with (especially those who have screwed us), and we can lie, cheat and steal any thing and any time we please and from anyone we choose. we can quickly come to believe that only our needs matter, screw everyone else!

for me that would be unacceptable, the reason not getting caught in a lie isn't as good as telling the truth is that you know the truth, you know you are a liar, even if no-one else ever knows, you will always know.

a religious man and an atheist were having a talk in Alaska some time ago and the atheist said 'I gave your 'God' a chance to prove himself and he failed.'
so the religious man said, 'In what way did you give God a chance?'
so the atheist responded, 'Well, i was lost in a blizzard a couple of weeks ago so i fell to my knees and shouted at the sky "God, if your out there, please save me!"
so the religious man said, 'Then you must believe in God because here you sit!'
so the atheist said, 'Nah, some eskimo came by and led me home.'

the point is, you shouldn't discount what you don't understand (and i don't understand it either)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

as an agnostic (that would be someone who believes in a God, just not religion) i would have to say that your logic is flawed across the board. absence of evidence is not evidence.

---

the word agnostic is a tricky one because it currently holds many personal definitions that are not accurate. at it's base an agnostic is someone who believe that it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god, so he/she suspends ultimate judgment. while an agnostic may believe it is improbable that there is a god or that it is very likely that there is, to remain in the agnostic category the person must remain in a state of uncertainty.

an atheist believes that there absolutely is no god.

anyone who follows a religion or who follows a personal belief system (not a mainstream system like christianity or hinduism) but believes that there is a god would more accurately fall into a general category of spirituals or believers (not in the sense of "christian believers" as beliefs can vary immensely).

an agnostic (traditionally speaking) is a group who would answer the question, "Do you believe there is a god?" with a reply of "i don't know" or "i can't know" and NOT "Yes there is a god but i don't know how it all works." by believing that there is a god one leaves the heading of "agnostic."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazetwostep

the word agnostic is a tricky one because it currently holds many personal definitions that are not accurate. at it's base an agnostic is someone who believe that it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god, so he/she suspends ultimate judgment. while an agnostic may believe it is improbable that there is a god or that it is very likely that there is, to remain in the agnostic category the person must remain in a state of uncertainty.

an atheist believes that there absolutely is no god.

anyone who follows a religion or who follows a personal belief system (not a mainstream system like christianity or hinduism) but believes that there is a god would more accurately fall into a general category of spirituals or believers (not in the sense of "christian believers" as beliefs can vary immensely).

an agnostic (traditionally speaking) is a group who would answer the question, "Do you believe there is a god?" with a reply of "i don't know" or "i can't know" and NOT "Yes there is a god but i don't know how it all works." by believing that there is a god one leaves the heading of "agnostic."

---

and i agree completely, i just didn't want to further cloud the issue, personally, i'm still on the fence

cool man... yeah not trying to be picky... just clarifying for anyone following the post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L Rag

Sup everyone, here's a little argument I made up to try to disprove the existence of god.. feel free to criticize and point out flaws, I wanna make it a very strong argument... Anyway cheers, and enjoy :)

P1: If god exists, he has existed forever, and nothing has existed before him.
P2: Therefore, god must have existed for an infinite period of time before the present.
P3: There is no reason for a god to exist but not cause any other existence.
P4: Therefore, god must have created the world as soon as he began to exist.
P5: If god created the world as soon as he began to exist, there is a finite time period between
the beginning of the world and the present.
P6: But god has never begun to exist, as he has existed forever.
P7: Therefore there is an infinite time period between the beginning of the world and the
present.
P8: P5 and P7 could not possibly be true at the same time.
C: Therefore, god does not exist.

---

k ill take a shot at this btw god does exist I dont just believe..its fact. proof is inside yourself but 'god' forbid u take a look.

P1: Yes god has zomg ALWAYS existed, the human percieves time therefore..it seems like a long ass time, but there is no such thing as time. Time is a human created idea which stemed from the earth and sun relationship.

P2: before the present..? yes its always been the same moment there is no before or after.

P3: Not sure what you mean..only earth exists? the universe is infinate as far as we know it is simply not logical to believe humans are the only form of life.

P4: ..scroll up 1 P

P5: Where the hell did u get this idea its so lacking..

P6: Yup.

P7: Again time does'nt exist its a human created illusion.

P8: ok this was repetitive and pointless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PureEvil760

k ill take a shot at this btw god does exist I dont just believe..its fact. proof is inside yourself but 'god' forbid u take a look.

P1: Yes god has zomg ALWAYS existed, the human percieves time therefore..it seems like a long ass time, but there is no such thing as time. Time is a human created idea which stemed from the earth and sun relationship.

P2: before the present..? yes its always been the same moment there is no before or after.

P3: Not sure what you mean..only earth exists? the universe is infinate as far as we know it is simply not logical to believe humans are the only form of life.

P4: ..scroll up 1 P

P5: Where the hell did u get this idea its so lacking..

P6: Yup.

P7: Again time does'nt exist its a human created illusion.

P8: ok this was repetitive and pointless.

---

a few thoughts back for you...

1. time very much so does exist (at least according to modern science). it is the fourth dimension of our universe (length, height, depth, time). now this is not synonymous with time as in 60 seconds, 24 hours, 365 days... you are correct that those are periods of perceived time decided upon by humans.

time is an actual dimension along with length, height, and depth that together make up the very "fabric" of our universe. time therefore is subject to the Theory of General Relativity (one of those things Einstein thought up, crazy guy! :) and is relative to one's perception. meaning that time can stretch or shrink just like a rubber band. i mentioned this in my first post so i won't overdue the point, but time very much so does exist.

2. your p2 thought is very interesting. i hold similar spiritual beliefs to the principle that as a "spiritual being" (for lack of a better word) there is not past or future, but only present. there is no tomorrow for when tomorrow comes you will find that it is actually the present. it is a very empowering and proactive outlook on life that has changed my life for the positive in many ways. i believe that our "spirits" are home to an existence that is timeless hence why we experience the phenomena of there only being "the present" though we indwell a place that is subject to time. it is kind of a messy tangle to comprehend really. the reality of this existence we know as our universe has time.

3. your p3 point is at odds with modern science again. the universe is finite. it has a total mass and shape. it is expanding and something infinite cannot expand because it is all by definition.

4. i don't think anything Reg said was pointless... something someone is working out is not pointless just because it is not refined or complete yet. my view of things is not complete or perfect either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Readytoride08

You will be respected here.You have some good point of views,but explain this too me......can you explain a 120% in increased storms,the Tsuamni,plague slowly coming into the world?

The Prohecy's are coming correct,God made it clear the time they would come true,when man douted his existance.I can understand why some of you may be turned off,but soon I believe your mind will be changed.

---

science can explain phenomena in the world

to call unexplainable phenomena god has always been premature :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazetwostep

1. time very much so does exist (at least according to modern science). it is the fourth dimension of our universe (length, height, depth, time). now this is not synonymous with time as in 60 seconds, 24 hours, 365 days... you are correct that those are periods of perceived time decided upon by humans.

time is an actual dimension along with length, height, and depth that together make up the very "fabric" of our universe. time therefore is subject to the Theory of General Relativity (one of those things Einstein thought up, crazy guy! :) and is relative to one's perception. meaning that time can stretch or shrink just like a rubber band. i mentioned this in my first post so i won't overdue the point, but time very much so does exist.

---

I wouldnt be so sure about the objective existence of time... we know that it exists inside our minds... in fact, it is a human concept. So how can we be sure that this human concept holds outside the human mind?

Space is another human concept. It comes from the fact that we humans are primarily visual beings, what means that we create a notion of world based mainly in what we see. We deal with concepts like close and far, large and small, which are greatly visual, and then resume all this concepts in a notion of space. But its notion is only a product of the abstraction of the human mind.

For example, take some animals who are more olfative and less visual than men. They make their notion of world based on smells more than images. Smells travel and behave differently of the light (which always go in straight lines and at the same speed). Its hard to have a notion of close and far only by the smell, and harder still to have the notion of large and small... so much probably this animals have other concepts, different of ours, and for they our concept of space wouldnt make any sense, as well as their concepts based on the smells perception wouldnt make much (if any) sense to us.

And the concept of time comes from our memory. As we remember configurations of perception (all things that we were seeing, hearing, thinking, etc), and notice that they are different of our current configuration of perception (what we are seeing now, hearing now, etc), we say that there was a lapse of time between this two different configurations of perception. But the only "real" thing is that there were different configurations of perception.

Its like if our memory were a collection of pictures. Some almost equal others, some very different. And we were trying to put some order in it.
So we would put the alike ones near, and the different ones far. As more alike two pictures were, as near they would be in the order.
Then we could create a concept relating the difference between two pictures and the distance of them in the stack of pictures, and this concept would be much alike our concept of time.

BTW the relativity of Einstein was the first theory to show that the concepts of space and time were human constructs, and not something "transcendental"... in relativity, space is simply the thing that is measured with a ruler, and time is simply the thing that is measured by a clock. Space and time lost their transcendental existence, and were turned in very human things. Cause rulers, clocks and measurements are things created by humans mind, and so all concepts derived from this.
Without rulers and clocks, the space and time may exist (or not), but they lose their meaning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazetwostep

2. your p2 thought is very interesting. i hold similar spiritual beliefs to the principle that as a "spiritual being" (for lack of a better word) there is not past or future, but only present. there is no tomorrow for when tomorrow comes you will find that it is actually the present. it is a very empowering and proactive outlook on life that has changed my life for the positive in many ways. i believe that our "spirits" are home to an existence that is timeless hence why we experience the phenomena of there only being "the present" though we indwell a place that is subject to time. it is kind of a messy tangle to comprehend really. the reality of this existence we know as our universe has time.

---

Well... if this "spiritual beings" share some perceptual similarity with us (if they percieve the world in ways alike ours, like seeing,hearing, etc), its possible that they have similar concepts of time and space.
But even so, its possible that they have not the concept of time... in the example of the stack of pictures, what if this "spiritual being" were able too see all the pictures at the same time? It wouldnt need to put them in order to look at them. And for us, it would seem like this being were able to live past, present and future at the same time.

Maybe this division of the time is only a human limitation... the space-time has 4 dimensions... and so all the configurations of matter in all the instants of time (past and future also) are already there in the space-time. But our mind only can process 3 dimensions at once. Which is the same to say that we only can see one picture each time. The ones that we already did see we call past, and the ones that we still didnt we call future, but they already are there, just waiting to be seen.

So, in the space-time there is no concept of time as we humans think. Past, present and future are already there. They exist there "at the same time". The space-time has no need of the concept of time like we think it is, a thing that flows, that passes... at the space-time, time is only more a "distance" between things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazetwostep

3. your p3 point is at odds with modern science again. the universe is finite. it has a total mass and shape. it is expanding and something infinite cannot expand because it is all by definition.

---

I would say that the physical observable universe is finite and its expanding. But nothing (nor even the physics) warrants that all the universe is actually obsevable. And, if we are talking about "supernatural" things, we also cant warrant that the universe in only the physical universe that we currently observe.

My only argument against god is christianity... mostly catholicism.