Hydro Nute Problem with pics... Help Needed

I've been trying to figure out what type of problem I have here. The bubbler hold 4 plants (2 master kush, 1 blueberry, 1 super skunk). Two of the four plants have the same issue (one MK and the super skunk), they other 2 seem okay, maybe slight P def. Leaf pics are from MK, they are the tallest. I also have 2 MKs in dirt in same room with no problems at all. Here are some details:

-indoor
-hydroponic
-hydroton
-DWC system type
-Water is 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap
-Water pH is 5.8 (+/- .1 to .2)
-Age = 5 weeks into flower, approx 3 ft tall
-using Pure Blend Pro + Karma + Sweet
-running approx 1200 ppm
-400 HPS approx 8-12 in from plants
-Temperature = high 85, low 65
-50% Relative humidity
-11/13 light/dark cycle
-using 449 crn vortex in small 4'x2' closet 6.5' tall

I think I might be pushing them running 1200ppm at their size. Also looks like poss. nute def. Need opinions and help.

PIC 1 is front of leaf specimen

PIC 2 is back of leaf specimen

Thanks for any help I can get...


MVP

Here's a bigger, more detailed pic of the back of the leaf...

I'll take a couple of guesses but thats really all they are....guesses.

1. Maybe need some CalMag.
2. fert building up in the medium. I've had this issue both in hydrotn AND higromite rocks but I use a drip system so...as I said.....guess. But the nute buildup in my medium REALLY played havoc with my plants.


MVP....what kind of ppm meter do you use?

Hey WH, cute doggies!

I use a Hanna Primo meter, calibrate using their 1382 solution 2x month or so. I also use the Hanna pHep meter for temp and PH.

http://boards.cannabis.com/attachmen...ctive-6802.jpg

Ok just trying to get a line on ppms....

Do your numbers go up after a few days and if so...how high? I use the Botanicare line myself and have noticed that anything over 1500 (and I'll drop my number if I see it above 1425) will over nute my plants. I use a Hanna as well so we are probably reading the same amounts.

I'm seriously wondering if you need some CalMag tho.....half and half on the water....no way to know if there is enough minerals etc in there or not. I've also read that too much of one nute/,mineral etc can lock another out.

My numbers in week 5 usually go 1/3 CalMag, 1/3 Pro Bloom and 1/3 Hydroplex....equaling about 1000 ppms. Then I added LK and Sweet for a total of 1350-ish. On my rhino grow when I tried to raise the base nutes higher I ran into troubles.

I imagine your ppm of base nutes is about...1000? That's about 300 more than I would use. Just throwing out my experiences here so don't know if ANY of this info will help or not.

This happened after I went to 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap since at the same time I lowered my Pure Blend Pro to keep PPM down. I'm running in the 1200 - 1300 total range, however will be doing a flush soon and then back things down to keep it in the ~ 1000 neighborhood. I think I may have a lock out happening as I am too high on the Liquid Karma/Sweet and too low on the Pure Blend Pro. I am now watching my PPMs closely when mixing nutes. Water (1/2-1/2) = 175 PPM, then add Karma/Sweet to get to ~ 400-450 PPM, then add PBP Bloom to get up to the approx 1000 target.

I'm kinda perplexed since last cycle (Black Domina / Blueberry) I didn't measure PPMs, just followed Botanicare instructions - which I now know to be too strong - and it kicked butt. I am pretty sure its a lack of base nutes and perhaps lock out that is causing issues. I'd better get it right soon as harvest is probably within the next 4 weeks.

My PH and PPM are not moving too much which is a bit abnormal. Like they are not feeding and excreting too much. What do you think?

Well I like the number on your base nutes.....I use 700 (50/50 Pro Bloom/Hydroplex)
and then 300CalMag to 1000. As I said when I tried to raise the number of the bloom nutes above that I started to have some real problems. I've heard various numbers about the LK and Sweet....the two best hydro minds I know are my hydro guy and Rhizome. Between those two guys (and the ppms) I've worked what I think works best for me with the LK and Sweet getting the optimum of each without wasting any that the plants arent going to use anyway. I go with 7ml/gallon of each...no more of either. I KNOW the number can go much higher...but imo most it is being wasted after that. AND adding useless ppms also so that's my limit with those. Put ALL those together and you are very close to my top ppm # of 1500....(i like some breathing room) with my nutes.

Its very hard to say about them not eating....do you have too many extras in your water that are just taking up space perhaps?.....and I still think you need some CalMAg. And of course different strains will do better (or worse) with the changes in ppms. My first grow (bagseed) I went WAY high with the numbers not knowing any better. The plants did TERRIFIC. The next time I tried taking the numbers that high the plants crashed (different strain) so who knows?

After researching my water quality and content, I decided to go back to tap water since it has decent CA and MG levels. I'll top off with RO but base nutes will be prepared with tap.

Yesterday afternoon I mixed new nutes as follows:
Tap water, 3 gallons = 315 base PPM
added 3ml Zone root conditioner, raised to 318 PPM
added 15 ml Liquid Karma, raised it to 405 PPM
added 15 ml Sweet, raised to 520 PPM
added 30 ml Pure Blend Pro Flower, raised to 925 PPM
had to add 4.5 ml Down to get PH to 5.8

Today I checked it and PH was 6.3 and PPM was 1081. Added approx 3 ml Down to get it to 5.8 PH, and left nutes at 1081 until this evening when I take further readings.

It's been approx 18 hours since the nute change, not noticeably change for better or for worse yet. I'll update again this evening.

And yes, advice is welcome if you have soem for me!

Got back too late and lights were out. I'll report status tomorrow.

Anyone got ideas on what happened here?

not really man but when I have problems, I make good use of foliar sprays to detect which nutes need adding. But I do grow in soil so its your call.

Yes, update when you can. Do your ppms usually go up, down or stay the same through the course of your grow?

I try to keep them in a range +/- 200 PPM max. From what I remember they seem to increase as the water level goes down, but I'm not absolutely certain.

Today I made up and printed a tracking sheet and attached it to a clip board in the grow room so that I can track it daily. I know I should have been doing this earlier, but I was flying well by the seat of my pants until now...

Oh I never do stuff until I run into a problem or somebody (like my hydro guy or Rhizome) tells me to....which doesn't mean I know WHY I'm doing it...

You used your reg tap water before with no issues right? If so I think it' wise to go back to that the way as you did.

Think about increasing bloom nutes over the next week....400 isn't a ton. I like 700ppm in bloom nutes.


And I WOULD consider flushing them at some point if you are not seeing an improvement. ;)

kinda looks like nute burn, check your water temps too if they get above 72 you might have oxygen issues, bghydro sells these 24" bendy bubble wands they did wonders for my recirculating dwc

Hey All, I found a pretty cool link to some old Overgrow.com info on Nute Deficiencies. I think I am MG def. due to lockout from the hard water.

NUTRIENT DEFICIENCIES LINK WITH PICTURES!!

I am treating with epsom via foliar and water methods. I'll update in a day or two with results......

Question;

Isn't this the same water you've always used with no problems? Why would it suddenly be causing a def? Or is it NOT the water you've always used?

It's the same water, but I changed the nutes by building the solution by PPM rather than just the directions on the package. After that I encountered problems when I decreased my base nutes since the micro and sweet pumped up the PPM too much.

Since then I have been foliar feeding with epsom salt in RO water and flushed the res with Flora Kleen for a day. The leaves were turning up and "praying" for MG according to the pics and nute def article I posted earlier in the thread.

Now I am running the following:

3 gallons RO water + 1 gallon tap water (96 PPM)
Pure Blend Pro - Bloom, 60ml (630 PPM)
Liquid Karma 20ml (100 PPM)
Sweet 10ml (50 PPM)
--------------------------------
Total PPM = 885
PH = 5.8

I threw them into Flower on 10/1 but the nute def problem has virtually halted growth. They are nice and sugary but not all cloudy and no amber yet. I fear they are severely stunt and feel like chopping them down in frustration. I won't do that - I'm pretty level headed (most of the time) - but they are not bouncing back yet and I have others that will need this room in 2-3 weeks.....

Hmmm......MVP I must say if you using RO water, you need CalMAg. I know about foliar sprays blah blah but they are only a substitue. STRONGLY consider flushing your medium young man. I keep my plants at 50/50 CalMag and base nutes to said level...then supplements are extra...until about 3-4 weeks into flower before I drop CalMAg back to 300 and THERE IT STAYS (all RO water....but you're using 3/4 RO....) Read back through my thread about the K def in my rhinos....I am placing my bets on that.....using LESS mg for an mg def (even with sprays.....doesn't work for me....) PS....are you using a zyme product?

BUT....I hope it works for you.. ;) I'll check back. :)

PSS...PROMISE me you will AT LEAST run a flush before you dump them and then see if they improve. :thumbsup:

If my plants were six weeks into flower here is where I would be #wise

RO Water.........15ppm
CalMag....300ppm
Pro Bloom 350
Hydroplex.350 (these are both blooming nutes and together equal 700ppm)
Liquid K 7ml/gallon
Sweet 7ml/gallon

and my numbers would be about 1350 total. Your entire ppms are too low iimo.....especially for six weeks in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weedhound

PSS...PROMISE me you will AT LEAST run a flush before you dump them and then see if they improve. :thumbsup:

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Yeah, I flushed them on 11/23 by pumping Flora Kleen over the media and running it in the bubbler for 24 hours. Also I am foliar feeding only as a supplement to get more MG to the plants.

I will read your K def report in the Rhino thread and see what I can take away from that situation.

I'm gonna take cuts later today from a MK mom and I'll have my Mom take pics so you can get the visual on cloning. Gotta run to the hydro store, I'll be back in a while. Hmm, Cal-Mag...

Anyhow, thanks for the input... I was running ~ 1300 -1400 in the flower room before the nute def hit me. I then scaled it back to figure out WTF was happening but willl be back up to that range soon.

Zyme? Help me understand here - is that the LIquid Karma?

Cannazym - 10L | Liquid Plant Nutrients

this is the one I use but I think rhizome sort of figures they are all the same...sensizyem etc

You were a good man to flush your medium, good work there. I think all you need to do....is trade in that last gallon of tap water for RO and add some CalMag and a zyme product to help with the dead roots. I feel the Calmag is NECESSARY (and would like to see all RO water so we know EXACTLY whats going in your rez) and the zyme is always a good idea.....but not so necessary. :)

The zyme products help break down dead root tissue but they also REALLY help to keep your ph stable as well. There are several around......;)

Wow - This is such an informative conversation you two or having.

Right now I'm using Latewood's formula with pretty good success. (I dunno for sure - I'm in week eight of flower and starting to get a lot of yellowing, so I hope it's natural for this point in a 10 week strain. ...but that's beside the point.)

I notice that there's no mention of Micro anywhere in the formula you are discussing/using. There isn't much N in CM+, so what are you doing for N and all the trace stuff you get in Micro?

I've never used a zyme product on these plants. They're in coco and are watered until run-off twice per day. With roughly three weeks left, would a zyme product be of benefit? Would it help to flush with it? Could I flush with H2O2 instead and, if so, how much H2O2 does one use?

PC :smokin:

I am using Liquid Karma for my Micro and Zone by Dutch Masters for my root conditioner... is that a zyme?

I'm pretty sure Micro is made by GH.....PC can you post a link to the product and I can check and see.... I do know Latewood's formula is for 3 part GH nutes, not the Botanicare which is pretty much an all in one product (except for your Calcium, Magnesium, etc which is all in your Cal Mag.....and all your cool trace minerals too) That's why I'm strongly suspecting that with RO water if MVP uses CalMAg his problems will disappear (hint hint :D)

The two minds I try to follow the most are my hydro guy and Rhizome. Interestingly, they have opposite views on the use of CalMAg during bloom. My hydro guy likes CM for the entire grow (which is the way I do it and always have) and Rhizome.....reading from the MAKERS of the product (Botanicare) says that CalMAg should be dropped completely from your plants menu during late flowering (I have never done this.)
As a compromise I ended up using a higher amount of CalMAg than Botanicare says and not as much as my hydro guy recommends BUT I still use it ALL THE WAY through my grow until flush time.

MVP I'm not familiar with the DutchMaster root conditioner. Do you have a link I can look at?

One last thing PC.....too much nitrogen can inhibit flowering I am told....by a very good mind....Stinky. I think that's why Botanicare recommends no CalMAg later on in blooming. But Stink agrees there is not "too much" N in CalMag to cause a problem in flowering and I know my hydro guy agrees.

Micro is part of a three-part nute. I use AN, but I think GH is almost the same. Anyhooo - here's some NPK numbers:

Grow - 2-1-6
Micro - 5-0-1
Bloom - 0-5-4

During veg you use equal parts of all three. During flower you drop the Grow completely. and use 2/1 - Bloom/Micro. Then I supplement with LK, CM+, Sweet & Molasses. I'm also adding Overdrive (1-3-4) for the next two weeks, then just Sweet & Molasses for the final week's flush.

I kept my base nutes (Micro & Bloom) constant and pushed up my supplements up until I got just a tad of tip burn then backed off on the supplements. I need to get a new ppm meter, but that's going to have to wait for awhile, so I'm just kinda flying by the seat of my pants here. Fortunately, with the coco, I mix a new batch of nutes every other day so it is easy to respond/adjust to what the plants seem to need.

..and now I'll shut up and quit jacking MVP's thread. :D

PC :smokin:

Ahhhh there is the confusion.

Pure Blend Pro Grow - gallon |

The Botanicare line is made as a one part or stand alone set of grow nutes....then in flowering you switch to the bloom one and they are complete for each part of your grow. The only thing missing in these "stand alone" nutes is the Calcium, magnesium, iron and trace minerals.....which are found in their third product Cal Mag.....made.....SPECIFICALLY for use with RO or distilled water....WHICH....oddly enough MVP is using mostly and even more oddly he seems to have a magnesium def.....go figure. :wtf:

So its a different brand and type of nutes PC. I love Botancare....just measuring one thing....no worries....and mostly organic....:thumbsup:

I shall now return this thread to its proper owner. :D

M.V.P. - You might as well go get some CalMag - she's not going to give you a moment's peace until you do. :D

PC :smokin:

Heh heh......Allow the truth to be SHOUTED from the rooftops.....:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PharmaCan

M.V.P. - You might as well go get some CalMag - she's not going to give you a moment's peace until you do. :D

PC :smokin:

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Yeah, next trip to the store will result in me buying CalMag. I'm still fighting this nute def thing and its pissing me off... :wtf:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weedhound

Read back through my thread about the K def in my rhinos....I am placing my bets on that.....

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WH, I read this part, but do you have any pics of the K def... I might have MG and K def here and I need pics to tell WTF I am gonna do next...

AAAARRRRRGGGHHH!!!!!

Well my k def was actually a result of fert buildup in the medium.....locking out the K because believe me I had a TON of K in my nute solution. But since you have said that you have done a flush I am less inclined to think that in your situtation now.....espically after discovering you are actually doing the opposite treatment we talked about.

I think you using 3/4 RO water has caused an MG def amongst other shortages and I'm pretty sure that is your problem. That's why I suggested going back to your regular tap water.....and was rather surprised when you mentioned that you were now using even MORE RO water.....but still no CalMag instead of going back to your tap water. You may have squeezed by with enough calcium and mag etc in your tap water.....but you certainly aren't going to get any in your RO water so I'm sort of wondering why you didn't start CalMag when you went to RO water....it's pretty standard to do so and most people who use RO and DONT use CalMAg WILL run into problems.

I didn't add CalMag when supplementing the tap with RO since I thought it would have sufficient levels in my tap water to supply them both. Now I have to head to the hydro shop and need to pick up something for the K def as well as CalMag (see PC, I'm finally bowing down to the Hound!).

What product did you use to clear up the K def? (I have symptoms of both MG and K issues) The store opens in 10 minutes so if you can let me know soon it will help me out...

i'm not sure you have a k def.....just buy the CalMag and we will work it out when you get back......I'd buy it for you and pour it in your rez myself if I were there.....:D

I think its a calcium def.....not k.....they look similar....saw a very interesting photo the other day....I could have sworn it was a k def but it turned out to be calcium.....got me thinking.. ...i'll see if I can find the photo.....

Revised: The Complete Guide To Sick Plants,pH and Pest Troubles - PlanetGanja.com If you go down to his photo under calcium def....it looks EXTREMELY close to a potassium def as well.

CalMag 300ppm
PBP......600
LK.......100
Sweet..100

anything else that is in the water ignore....ppms from your tap or numbers added by your zyme product do not count.

this is the schedule I would run or you may want to try the CalMAg at 200.....I personally would go to 300ppm (RO water) and watch the plants carefully but you can try 200 and see if they perk up a little and if they do....go higher.

You are using the EXACT same products I am using so I'm pretty sure (unless there is some factor going on I don't know about) that your problem is def related to the lack of CalMag. There is only one way to know for sure of course.....add it and see. ;)

Here are the pics of the Master Kush (L) and Super Skunk (R).

They started out looking very much like this picture, then got progressively worse...

Ps....the photos make me think even more of Calcium def vs k def.....i'll photo one of my k def leaves....yours doesn't really look the same.