Actually that would be Anarchy = Self Discipline, Capitalism = No Discipline For Those Who Control the Capital. Remember: Anarchy is not Chaos, but Capitalism is!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugitive
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Actually that would be Anarchy = Self Discipline, Capitalism = No Discipline For Those Who Control the Capital. Remember: Anarchy is not Chaos, but Capitalism is!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugitive
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness do not add up to just capitalism. That is a ludicrous assumption that stems from the anti-communist, anti-socialist propaganda that defined the Cold War. Socialism allows for just as much liberty and happiness as free market society. Americans, in general, tend to have a "Fuck you, we're the best on the planet" attitude, which not only keeps us from even giving other systems a good look, but is eating away at the foundations of our nation.
None of the founding fathers would be proud of a race of ignorant, selfish, entitled assholes who think that economically dominating the world is the best way to spread equality and freedom, or would go to war just because a country disagrees with our way of thinking.
"Brought tears to me eyes did that guv'ner" (said in a mock cockney* accent)Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMartinez
All joking aside though , I think you put that extremely well. :thumbsup:
*cockney - definition of cockney by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
"life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" has nothing to do with capitalism. it is nothing more than a statement of intent, emphasizing the importance of the individual over the needs of government or the so-called best interests of the people as a whole. it stems from the simple belief that no man or organization has the right to infringe upon the freedoms of any individual. this includes all freedoms, even those that might be labeled as greed or callousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMartinez
though capitalism is never prescribed in any of our founding documents, it is the natural choice for a nation whose creed is the protection of the individuality of all its citizens. with centralized socialist controls the individual is placed secondary to the will of the government and personal success is subject to the whims of a group with the power of life and death over the population. it is a small step to the totalitarian measures that this country was founded to escape from.
with the freedom to prosper must come the freedom to fail, only a fool or a politician could ever believe otherwise. the equality that that declaration spoke of was not the tawdry materialism of a roof over your head and shoes on your feet, but the much more fundamental equality of each man's right to exist without the fear of unwarranted persecution and the opportunity to freely make a better life for himself.
what capitalism offers that socialism can never equal is the opportunity to thrive beyond the constraints of a self-serving government. socialism's downfall is and always has been the naive belief that governments can be trusted. government already has control of military force and the power of the judicial and legislative systems. to allow them to totally dominate the labor and materials of commerce leaves the people at the mercy of an uncaring bureaucracy, with no power of their own.Quote:
Socialism allows for just as much liberty and happiness as free market society.
the failures of both systems are the failures of the people themselves. avarice and an unquenchable thirst for power are the faults of humanity, not of economic ideologies. in an enlightened population any economic system could be made to work, but we are far from such goals. the free markets of capitalism avoid the problems of the consolidation of all the different forms of power that socialism can only aggravate.
such generalizations may seem cool and they may even get you laid, but they are as disingenuous as any such statements are bound to be. the abuses you rail against are not the sole domain of this country, rabid nationalism rears its ugly head in every corner of the world. the real cancers eating away at the soul of this country are the total lack of personal responsibility that is engendered by our growing cult of entitlement and the petty envies of those who fear the power of the individual.Quote:
Americans, in general, tend to have a "Fuck you, we're the best on the planet" attitude, which not only keeps us from even giving other systems a good look, but is eating away at the foundations of our nation.
i don't doubt that our founders would be appalled at the current state of the experiment they began. our species began as creatures of the herd, huddled together for safety. this country would seem to be an attempt to move past this existence of apathetic bovine meanderings and cease our dependence on the mediocrity of the mob. instead of following their lead and embracing the concept of the superiority of the individual, we have merely lapsed back into the primitive habits of our ancestors and created ever larger herds to graze over the dwindling countryside.Quote:
None of the founding fathers would be proud of a race of ignorant, selfish, entitled assholes who think that economically dominating the world is the best way to spread equality and freedom, or would go to war just because a country disagrees with our way of thinking.
delusions- I agree with parts of your arguement and disagree with others, as is expected.
However, I think the real problem begins with the Constitution, if it is in fact how most people here are understanding it, to put the individual first, to desire personal satisfaction over the benefit of all. If this is true, we have a fundamental problem with our country. Also, our country doesn't advocate the personal freedom of the masses, to make each individual more free. It's based off the simple majority rule, regardless if its only by one percent, regardless of right and wrong. This is also a major problem.
before responding i should probably remind any interested party that i am the patient anarchist. i see government as a necessary evil (for the moment) and regard the ideals of the american system as the surest path to regaining the freedom to which we are all born. when faced with a choice between injustice and slavery, i believe we should remember that injustice is an inherent flaw of humanity while slavery is a choice we make to bow down to tyrants.
the bill of rights is meant to define and restrict government's role in society, not the people's. it is designed as a leash on tyranny, not a moral code. we have asked far too much of such a basic document and our refusal to take control of our own lives has handed over the responsibility of molding the nation's ethos to governmental bodies that are wholly unsuited to the task.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBudhaStank
the "fundamental problem" lies not with the nation, but with ourselves. instead of cultivating the finer aspects of our humanity such as charity and empathy, we demand that government take care of the duties that we ourselves should be responsible for.
it is not government's job to "make each individual more free", but to limit the freedoms to which we were all born. there is nothing godlike in our system that enables it to hand out freedom, that is the spark that resides solely in the people themselves.Quote:
Also, our country doesn't advocate the personal freedom of the masses, to make each individual more free.
an independent judiciary was designed to offset what would later be termed "the dictatorship of the proletariat" and to see to it that mob rule did not infringe on the rights of the individual. it has always been a balancing act between the needs of the masses and the rights of the individual and it would seem that the individual is quickly losing his rights to the overwhelming tide of the mob.Quote:
It's based off the simple majority rule, regardless if its only by one percent, regardless of right and wrong. This is also a major problem.
The constitution was set up to avoid a situation where the majority ruled the minority with absolute power. This is why we have a Bill of Rights, to guarantee no government powered majority could remove your liberty.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBudhaStank
Our Union was created to protect the rights of its citizens first and foremost. What we do with our freedom is our choice. Rational beings desire to prosper, which is also known as acting upon self interests.
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Capitalism is based on competition. Socialism is based on equity. Socialism < Capitalism because not everybody is equal in terms of ability. Until we genetically modify all humans to be the same, socialism will continue to fail when allowed to compete with capitalism.
Humbly, I disagree. I think every human being is as capable as the next. I do not subscribe to the theory that our abilities and talents are set in stone from the moment we're born. We pick up almost every aspect of our beings as we going on, and thus I believe everyone IS equal in ability, the difference is their motive to use their abilities and the drive to always hone them.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBoy812
My two cents, anyway.
And I do have a compromise between the two, if anyone's interested.
universal equality of talent is one of the myths that fuel the socialist agenda. they tell us that if wealth were only shared equally we would all be capable of greatness, but we know that just isn't so. there will always be those who excel and those who are doomed to failure. we may provide aid to those failures, but we cannot force them to succeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMartinez
if you are talking about a compromise between capitalism and socialism, i doubt you will find a workable model. temporary measures may hold for a while, but the freedom of the individual and slavery to the state are incompatible ideas.Quote:
And I do have a compromise between the two, if anyone's interested.
This is where I stopped listening. There is nothing good about anarchy, not one thing. I'm sorry, there just isn't. There's nothing good about a world where people are free to rape, murder and pillage at will with little to no consequences, as most people can't/won't/don't know how to defend themselves or others. Ever play Fallout 3? Yeah, no thanks. There might not be a nuclear holocaust where everything you touch is irradiated, but it's largely the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity