Christians Beware: Jesus Kills Babies And Supports Genocide

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Originally Posted by Vampiero

But then i dont understand why people route their lives around it, waste time in church, or do otherthings that arn't going to have an effect, especially with all these fanatics, what im arguing against is mostly the Churchs and their versions of GOD.

...but im not sure about the string theory just because i have yet to really look into it yet. And i do believe life on other planets is possible although unlickely.

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First off, Spinoza? We're far beyond the modern movement now, can't we let rationalism die already?
I think it's very easy to blame religion for a lot of societies problems. And in a lot of cases there might be something to it. But I think the far greater problem, that affects both secular and religious people, is apathy. because, as any student of philosophy should know, the negation of god does not allow for the negation of the ethical.

Also, I was curious about your comment concerning other planets. If you have a concept even approaching the size of the universe, and if life is not itself divinely inspired, shouldn't it be everywhere else too? Why do you find it unlikely? What makes us so special?

Question:I asked what you do believe happens, you said nothing to special. I didn't say it had to be special, just what exactly do you think happens? Here is a better way of putting it, Is there an after life for you? What is it?

Questions: You do believe in more than one dimension, what do you believe the other 3 we don't reside in are like? And you don't believe in "aliens", but what about residents of these other dimensions you believe to exist, like us in the 3rd? Not to mention the fact that we have no clue, as humans, if there are other galexies. We have not even begun to be able to present facts about life on other planets,and there is no way of knowing any facts as to wether or not they have residents, or even the likelyhood of any of it. We have been to what 2 planets? Of how many? Yet you have still formed an uneducated "opinion" about it.

That is all I am trying to get across to you. You have all these ideas that have been put into your head from some source. Get rid of all of it, start over. I am not telling you to believe me. I am telling you to take all your preconcived notions, anything your parents, teachers of friends told you, and get rid of it. It is a very hard thing to do, and will come more with age.

Open up your mind and learn. That is all :)

Eva

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Not to mention the fact that we have no clue, as humans, if there are other galexies. We have not even begun to be able to present facts about life on other planets,and there is no way of knowing any facts as to wether or not they have residents, or even the likelyhood of any of it. We have been to what 2 planets? Of how many? Yet you have still formed an uneducated "opinion" about it.

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Quoting myself:rolleyes:

I just had to point out the fact that you have in fact been uneducatedly guessing, which in science is called a hypothesis. It is followed by studies and tests. None of which you, with the scientific mind and all, have done. Yet you have already come to the conclusion this is the way it is. You have skipped steps friend. That is MY point.

Eva

"Science works from the outside in, spirituality from the inside out." -Polymirize (from another thread)

I couldn't resist :)

Polymerize: i was never arguing the end of the 'ethical'. Personally my favorite aspects of philosophy are morals and ethics. But i was just inspiering a debate over the existence of GOD, and not the unexplainable. On another note, since the universe is so big, there is a large possibility that 'life' might exist but under different conditions that what we consider to be life.

SistarIndigo: thanks dude, trully, im not being sarcastic. Lately i've been thinking across the same lines and how things like priciples and traditions are really unjustified and unadapted for today's world, thats the reason i began to question GOD, but your idea puts me on a whole new level.

Mission accomplished :)

Eva

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Originally Posted by Vampiero

Polymerize: i was never arguing the end of the 'ethical'. Personally my favorite aspects of philosophy are morals and ethics. But i was just inspiering a debate over the existence of GOD, and not the unexplainable. On another note, since the universe is so big, there is a large possibility that 'life' might exist but under different conditions that what we consider to be life.

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Excellent points. And I'll ask you in advance for your forgiveness for answering them only with more questions.
First off, what do you think it means to be ethical? It seems like there's a lot of bagging on religion for not providing better ethics. But the same thing can be said of secular systems. "how can god allow such and such" people may ask. Let's seperate the divine from the systems which attempt to contain it shall we? Make no mistake, the divine is the unexplainable. The uncomprehensible. Infinite. The divine is everywhere. And so any attempt to find it in a singular form of thought is bound to fail. I've read a great deal of religious texts, and there's always something to it, some good ideas for how to treat our fellow human beings. And they're usually always lacking in other respects. Something, some possible perspective just isn't considered.

What is ethics? What is the goal of ethics? Where do they come from?

And in regards to life on other planets, what is life? what is existance?

I stole this off another thread again. It was all to fitting for the conversation. I can't remember the name of the poster, and I can't go back and look either, so SORRY for no kudos! Seriously, this was a great article.

NY Times 1/22/06

The Nonbeliever

Questions for Daniel C. Dennett about his book Breaking the Spell : Religion as a Natural Phenomenon

The philosopher and author talks about why he feels sure there is no God, how a scientific study can be applied to religion and what it means to be a "Darwinian fundamentalist".


Q: How could you, as a longtime professor of philosophy at Tufts University, write a book that promotes the idea that religious devotion is a function of biology? Why would you hold a scientist's microscope to something as intangible as belief? I don't know about you, but I find St. Paul's and St. Peter's pretty physical.

But your new book, "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon," is not about cathedrals. It's about religious belief, which cannot be dissected in a lab as if it were a disease. That itself is a scientific claim, and I think it is false. Belief can be explained in much the way that cancer can. I think the time has come to shed our taboo that says, "Oh, let's just tiptoe by this, we don't have to study this." People think they know a lot about religion. But they don't know.

So what can you tell us about God? Certainly the idea of a God that can answer prayers and whom you can talk to, and who intervenes in the world - that's a hopeless idea. There is no such thing.

Yet faith, by definition, means believing in something whose existence cannot be proved scientifically. If we knew for sure that God existed, it would not require a leap of faith to believe in him. Isn't it interesting that you want to take that leap? Why do you want to take that leap? Why does our craving for God persist? It may be that we need it for something. It may be that we don't need it, and it is left over from something that we used to be. There are lots of biological possibilities.

Didn't religion spring up in its earliest forms in connection with the weather, the desire to make sense of rain and lightning? We have a built-in, very potent hair-trigger tendency to find agency in things that are not agents, like snow falling off the roof.

There was so much infant mortality in the past, which must have played a large role in encouraging people to believe in an afterlife. When a person dies, we can't just turn that off. We go on thinking about that person as if that person were still alive. Our inability to turn off our people-seer and our people-hearer naturally turns into our hallucinations of ghosts, our sense that they are still with us.

But they are still with us, through the process of memory. These aren't just memories.

I take it you do not subscribe to the idea of an everlasting soul, which is part of almost every religion. Ugh. I certainly don't believe in the soul as an enduring entity. Our brains are made of neurons, and nothing else. Nerve cells are very complicated mechanical systems. You take enough of those, and you put them together, and you get a soul.

That strikes me as a very reductive and uninteresting approach to religious feeling. Love can be studied scientifically, too.

But what's the point of that? Wouldn't it be more worthwhile to spend your time and research money looking for a cure for AIDS? How about if we study hatred and fear? Don't you think that would be worthwhile?

Traditionally, evolutionary biologists like Stephen Jay Gould insisted on keeping a separation between hard science and less knowable realms like religion. He was the evolutionist laureate of the U.S., and everybody got their Darwin from Steve. The trouble was he gave a rather biased view of evolution. He called me a Darwinian fundamentalist.

Which I imagine was his idea of a put-down, since he thought evolutionists should not apply their theories to religion. Churches make a great show about the creed, but they don't really care. A lot of the evangelicals don't really care what you believe as long as you say the right thing and do the right thing and put a lot of money in the collection box.

I take it you are not a churchgoer. No, not really. Sometimes I go to church for the music.

Yes, the church gave us Bach, in addition to some fairly spectacular architecture and painting. Churches have given us great treasures. Whether that pays for the harm they have done is another matter.
DEBORAH SOLOMON

Very intersting discussion folks. I always like discussing hard issues. lol Maybe I'm a glutten for punishment.


First religion is bad. Religious people crucified Jesus. Religious people fought the crusades. Religious people killed our friends on 9/11.

What true Christianity is, is a relationship with God. This is a very personal thing and some things people argue about are just doctrinal issues that don't really matter to much so long as the core truth is followed. (For example whether a Christian can drink alcohol or not).

Now I have said I really enjoy these discussions and I get into them a lot. In order to have a good discussion I think we need to keep a few things in mind. We can not always tell through a message board if someone is being serious or joking, so give folks the benfiet of the doubt until proven otherwise.

The Bible has more books and historical manuscripts that back it up proving it to be accurate than any other book ever written. I'm talking about writings from people outside the faith and Greek and Roman government officials.

Also, we need to be careful how we use the text. I can pick it apart and get it to say whatever I want. Always look at context. For example look at the first post in this thread. Yes, God called for some people to be completely whiped out. Why? There are two things that God will not stand for and that is dishonoring Him and dishonoring His people. Do you think maybe there's a reason why despite centuries of violence no nation has been able to destroy the Jewish people?

The flood didn't happen just because God was angry at a few people. It was the entire population except for Noah and his family that had turned away from God and was living in sin.


The Bible does not say sex is bad. In fact, sex is designed by God. It was people that perverted it.

Also, handle the text properly in terms of Old and New Testament. The Law, which was given to Moses and taught the people is Old Testament and people added to that. This was wrong. Jesus came to be the ultimate sacrifice. Under the Law there was the annual sacrifice for the atonement of the sins of the people. Jesus was the final sacrifice. We are no longer under the Law. He is now our doorway to God. He said no man comes to the Father except through Him. We no longer need to get wrapped up trying to live under the Law and other religious mechanical actions. Religion is death and heartless bondage. A relationship with Him is freedom.

I've been gone for a few months and when I drop back in the first topic I open is this xD. Its always nice to know that no matter how long I leave, whenever I come back there is always a "Christians Are Evil" kinda topic. Lol. How come no one ever seems to insult other religions. You guys make it seem as thou it is the only Religion in this world. :) Either you people are feeling extrem hate for them or you really must love them to the point you deny it. Lol oh my, not that I mind but I always found it funny with this forum. So how about them Hindus...

Also, Sex is any way is not perverted. We just call it kinky now. Stuff like rape or something where you force intercourse upon someone is not perverted its just sick and wrong. A horrible act. I also do not consider it sex because it is more force which makes me call it volience (sp?). But that is a form of sex, sex in its purity is not perverted.

I realize that can be taken so wrong...I can't explain it very well but I have it in my mind. Next time i'm stoned I'll explain.