Argument supporting god...?

God doesn't exist.

If he does then why doesn't he show himself? It's no good others telling me he does. Right now we really could use him. If he exists why doesn't he come here right now and show us. No ambiguity, nothing like that. Just show up and make sure everyone sees he's real, then he can go back to wherever he came from and we can all worship him for ever and ever amen.

It's not much to ask. Instead of that we are asked to rely on a book which is open to thousands of interpretations. Religion is the cause of nearly every war in the world right now. Surely God should show us a sign? Let us know he's around.

There is NO scientific reason to believe in God. It is purely a matter of faith. You'll not find me knocking anyone's faith, but it's anything but scientific. I believe in science. Science tells me that if I stick my hand in the fire I get burned. And guess what...it's true. Science tells me about gravity, and I can prove that right now. I just threw a ball in the air, and it came back down. Now God...he tells me (via a book) that all kinds of things are going to happen, or have happened. And guess what...none of it can be proved. It's all about faith, and I have none. An entirely rational position. I think faith is irrational, by it's very nature it must be. God asks you to have faith and belief, good for you if you have it, but I'm not buying it.

Mud Dauber, I've explained this again and again so this really is the last time. I think you are trying to yank my chain, good luck with that.

Here it is again, in the simplest terms I can put it. If I tell you that there is a man in the corner, and you can't see him, then it's down to me to prove that he is there. It's not down to you to prove that he isn't.

The thing about poker... it's not fixed, I make a decent amount of cash from it, and I work another job as back up. It's certainly possible to win money at poker if you play the percentages and you understand what those percentages are. There's no real mystery to it. Online is pretty good, but I like a face to face game in the casino. There's a lot of players there who think that poker is all about smoking a big cigar and trying to stare the other guy down...just like the movies. We call them fish, and I'll eat them all day.

"If he does then why doesn't he show himself? It's no good others telling me he doesn't. Right now we really could use him. If he exists why doesn't he come here right now and show us. No ambiguity, nothing like that. Just show up and make sure everyone sees he's real, then he can go back to wherever he came from and we can all worship him for ever and ever amen."

Keep in mind that this did happen, except that since your own eyes haven't seen it, you don't think it happened. I told you people saw Jesus come back after he was put to death. I would have listened to him If I had seen him too. So his fame traveled and so we're still giving him glory today. His word will continue forever and ever.

Your example about seing a man in the corner is a bad one. There are plenty of writings left by people from different generations that point to the same God. So it's you that has to prove that these writings are wrong. It's not one person, it's a whole movement. I believe that what they wrote is true so I don't have to prove them wrong. The bottom line is that we were left the Word of God, and it's you that has to prove it wrong. Good Luck with that. You put your faith in man (cause you accept science as truth) and I put my faith in God (cause I accept his word as truth). As far as proof though, proof will depend on your faith. Cause to me, everything around me is the proof of God and you'll say it's the proof of science. Science is not a Creator. Without God, we would have no science. Cause everything came out of him.

How come science hasn't proven that there's a hell under the earth? It's like a furnace. I saw a movie in 3D IMAX and they showed these little holes at the bottom of the ocean. You know what came out of those holes? Heat blowing out making the water boil. I forget how many degrees they said it made the water. I think it was about 600 or 700 degrees of hot and boiling springs at the bottom of the ocean. That's some deep shit. Once again, science finding facts to prove the accuracy of the Word of God.

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

You don't understand the son of man and the Son of God principle. The Son of God has no decent. He has no father or mother. He has no beginning of days or end of life. Read about Melchisedec. He was made like the Son of God. You're only testifying that jesus is the son of man, but you're denying that he's the Son of God. The jews rejected Jesus as the Son of God, but they knew that their messiah would be God himself. They knew that it would be God himself that would save them. They just didn't believe it was Jesus, and are still waiting to be delivered.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Nothing was made that was made without him. He is "before" all things. Jesus came to save "his" peole from their sins. Jesus said that Moses' writings are his words. You are just repeating the false religious teachings that are out there. Jesus is the Word of God.

I wonder why you didn't provide any scripture in your reply? The word proved you wrong about seeing God and you just ignored it and preached religion. Did Phillip not ask Jesus to show them the Father? What did Jesus tell him? He said he who hath "seen" me hath "seen" the Father. Getting to know jesus will help you get to know his Father in Heaven

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins"

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

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De 6:4 ; Mal 2:10 ; Mr 10:18 ; Ro 3:29,30 ;
Re 3:14 ; Col 1:15 ; Isa 44:6
Php 2:5,6 ; Da 4:35
Php 2:10,11 ; John 8:42; 12:49

He is the son of Jehovah god.

1Co 11:3 ; John 20:17 ; Re 1:6

Jesus Is a representive of his Father and Getting to know him is Getting to know his Father. Your confused Read the scriptures

God doesn't exist.

If he does then why doesn't he show himself? It's no good others telling me he does. Right now we really could use him. If he exists why doesn't he come here right now and show us. No ambiguity, nothing like that. Just show up and make sure everyone sees he's real, then he can go back to wherever he came from and we can all worship him for ever and ever amen.

It's not much to ask. Instead of that we are asked to rely on a book which is open to thousands of interpretations. Religion is the cause of nearly every war in the world right now. Surely God should show us a sign? Let us know he's around.

There is NO scientific reason to believe in God. It is purely a matter of faith. You'll not find me knocking anyone's faith, but it's anything but scientific. I believe in science. Science tells me that if I stick my hand in the fire I get burned. And guess what...it's true. Science tells me about gravity, and I can prove that right now. I just threw a ball in the air, and it came back down. Now God...he tells me (via a book) that all kinds of things are going to happen, or have happened. And guess what...none of it can be proved. It's all about faith, and I have none. An entirely rational position. I think faith is irrational, by it's very nature it must be. God asks you to have faith and belief, good for you if you have it, but I'm not buying it.

Mud Dauber, I've explained this again and again so this really is the last time. I think you are trying to yank my chain, good luck with that.

Here it is again, in the simplest terms I can put it. If I tell you that there is a man in the corner, and you can't see him, then it's down to me to prove that he is there. It's not down to you to prove that he isn't.

The thing about poker... it's not fixed, I make a decent amount of cash from it, and I work another job as back up. It's certainly possible to win money at poker if you play the percentages and you understand what those percentages are. There's no real mystery to it. Online is pretty good, but I like a face to face game in the casino. There's a lot of players there who think that poker is all about smoking a big cigar and trying to stare the other guy down...just like the movies. We call them fish, and I'll eat them all day.


We are being challanged by Satan. He says we do not need God and we can be god's of our selfs. This world is proveing him a liar. What we see happening today is proof. All this has purpose and a Greater Goal. Don't fall into Satan's thinking and die along with him.

this is to be my last post on this topic people, this argument is going around in circles, no one is going to change the way that they look at the bible, so all in all this argumant is really just a circle because it has no end, and it cannot have an end. i have just one question, if god created the heavens and the earth and, well, everything, who or what created god?

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Originally Posted by MastaChronic

this is to be my last post on this topic people, this argument is going around in circles, no one is going to change the way that they look at the bible, so all in all this argumant is really just a circle because it has no end, and it cannot have an end. i have just one question, if god created the heavens and the earth and, well, everything, who or what created god?

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Has always been, and will always be. He is the energy that can not go away and has always been.

LOL Religion! Its just used to help people deal with things they cant understand. Like death..

But the people who believe god exists are going to do so no matter what you say because thats how they were brought up. Ignorance is bliss.

I agree Masta, this will be never ending. Like a Merry Go Round.

Masta, it would be like me asking you were did life in general come from? Where did it start and how did it get there? We just have to take it for what it is. He is Eternal. Always WAS, IS, and always WILL be. God is Super Natural.

Krogith, you say I'm confused but it's you that has to change what the scriptures say to preach your gospel. I gave you his word and you preached that he was a representative even though the scriptures say that it was "God with us". You like to change the word of God to make your point. So basically, you believe in two LORD's right? You say that Jesus is not the LORD of the old testament. That means that there is another LORD. In the new testament is says that Jesus is Lord. If he is Lord and he's not the only LORD, then you believe that there is more than ONE Lord. So I guess it's you that believes in the trinity, not me. I preach one God. If you believe that Jesus is Lord, and he's not God, then you contradict yourself. Cause the entire bible is about the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

If you're making any kind of sense you should have an answer for this question: Jesus says in Matthew that where two or three are gathered together in his name, that he's there in their midst. How can Jesus be present with two believers if not in the Spirit? Jesus is the Holy Spirit. See how I preach ONE God and you're the one preaching the trinity? You say that there are three Gods and I say that there is ONE God. Your gospel is FALSE. Jesus is LORD.

You need to start thinking for yourself. You should start repeating the word instead of the word of the pastor. I have heard alot of people that sound exactly like you. Sorry, but you have been programmed. I admit that I'm programmed as well, but at least it's by his word. You guys want to change the scriptures to accomodate your point of views. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. Why do you guys say that the word was a God? You're implying that there are more than one. See what I mean about that trinity thing again. You are the one who is preching the trinity. I believe in one God.

I have not changed anything. The Name of his father is Jehovah ( english) and is Yhwh in herbrew. Go look it up. Look how it's spelled in the Dead sea Scroles ( Oldest vershion we have today). It's just a matter of miss conception.

If the named of God wasn't taken out by the roman cathloic chirch we wouldn't even be haveing this disscushion. Look it up. and look at the scriptures i cited. Compare all the Lord and lord In your bible. The Capital Lord is Jehovah God in the herbrew script and the lower case is refering to Jesus. I have done the reaserch looking for the truth. Look for your self and please don't just wave your hand and forget.

Just compair all the scripts I cited and look up the dead sea scrolles for the most accerate translation.

John 17:3. Read it

How does God send someone if it is him self?

jesus this.
moses that.
abraham hit me with a wiffle ball bat.

Galatians 3 :20
Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, But God is only One.

READ Please
1 Corinthians 8 :4-6

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Originally Posted by Ignatius

God doesn't exist.

If he does then why doesn't he show himself? It's no good others telling me he does. Right now we really could use him. If he exists why doesn't he come here right now and show us. No ambiguity, nothing like that. Just show up and make sure everyone sees he's real, then he can go back to wherever he came from and we can all worship him for ever and ever amen.

It's not much to ask. Instead of that we are asked to rely on a book which is open to thousands of interpretations. Religion is the cause of nearly every war in the world right now. Surely God should show us a sign? Let us know he's around.

There is NO scientific reason to believe in God. It is purely a matter of faith. You'll not find me knocking anyone's faith, but it's anything but scientific. I believe in science. Science tells me that if I stick my hand in the fire I get burned. And guess what...it's true. Science tells me about gravity, and I can prove that right now. I just threw a ball in the air, and it came back down. Now God...he tells me (via a book) that all kinds of things are going to happen, or have happened. And guess what...none of it can be proved. It's all about faith, and I have none. An entirely rational position. I think faith is irrational, by it's very nature it must be. God asks you to have faith and belief, good for you if you have it, but I'm not buying it.

Mud Dauber, I've explained this again and again so this really is the last time. I think you are trying to yank my chain, good luck with that.

Here it is again, in the simplest terms I can put it. If I tell you that there is a man in the corner, and you can't see him, then it's down to me to prove that he is there. It's not down to you to prove that he isn't.

The thing about poker... it's not fixed, I make a decent amount of cash from it, and I work another job as back up. It's certainly possible to win money at poker if you play the percentages and you understand what those percentages are. There's no real mystery to it. Online is pretty good, but I like a face to face game in the casino. There's a lot of players there who think that poker is all about smoking a big cigar and trying to stare the other guy down...just like the movies. We call them fish, and I'll eat them all day.

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(Serves me right for trying to cook dinner and reply at the same time, my session timed out and I lost everything I had typed ! So here goes again)

"God doesn't exist." "If he does then why doesn't he show himself?"

You said you had empirical evidence that God doesn't exist. What experiments have you done to prove this ? Are you familiar with quantum theory, or the spacial fourth dimension ? Do you believe in such things, even though you have never seen either, or proof of either ? I am surprised at someone with your alleged intelligence (I say alleged, as I don't know you) saying that none of the events in the Bible have ever been proven. Are you not familiar with history, or with archeology ? Both have proven that elements of the Bible are true, mostly in the New Testament. Many of the people have been proven to have existed, as with the places and events. Many of these accounts were written by people who did not follow Jesus.

You believe in science, you say - archeology is a science, too. Is it not just as important as physics ? Or chemistry ?

You said earlier that you have faith in humans. What kind of faith, faith that they are going to step on you in every fashion so that they can get what they want ?

I'm not trying to yank your chain Iggy - I'm just trying to find out why your brain works the way it does.

Is there any empirical evidence that poker can support a family ? ;)

Let me tell you something, as I would like to see what you think of this. I have a friend that I've known for eons. Her mother took her to church sporadically as a child, but she stopped going probably around middle school. She had a very difficult childhood, and went off the deep end several times as a teenager. She ended up being a stripper, a crack head, and a rape victim, which resulted in pregnancy. I was her only loyal friend through all this. She was never a religious person, in fact she shunned the church, just as she shunned her mother and stepfather. Fast forward many years, and she is driving home in the middle of the night, down a two-lane road in the country. She lost control of her car going around a curve, and went into the woods where she hit a tree. She was nearly decapitated, broke all of her ribs, and completely crushed her left leg. I drove a hundred and fifty miles to visit her in the hospital, and saw her in traction with an ear-to-ear gash that had missed the jugular by a fraction of an inch. When she got out of the hospital months later, she sat me down and told me exactly what had happened. She said that when the paramedics came to cut her out of the car, she was sitting in a tree above them watching the whole thing. She reminded me that she was never religious, agnostic at a stretch, and went on to tell me that while she was sitting in the tree, watching her broken body bleed, that she felt the presence of God "sitting" right there beside her on the limb. She said he told her that she was going to be okay, and although she was "ready to go" with him, he "put" her back into her body. (I'm using the words she used, she said there wasn't really any way she could describe it properly) Her doctors performed surgery on her for 12 hours, and told her that they were completely astonished that she lived.

What do you make of that ? Brain farts ? ;)

LOL, did it hurt?

Krogith, you want to generalize and jump around cause you're avoiding his word. Why don't you stay still and talk about one point and I'm sure it will come to the light.

You still avoided everything I said to you. You won't be able to prove your point with sound doctine. You will have to "teach" what it means instead of just repeating the sound words that can't be condemned. Like you said earlier, your instruction is to be out teaching heathen. I don't know where you get that from, but I think it turns into $$$ for your leaders. Jehovah Witness go door to door to talk to people. Bring in the members. There is no true religion out there. The oldest church standing today is a synagoge. The only people with religion in the bible were the jews. All current religions have been started by some man. We are built upon the apostles and prophets and Jesus is the corner stone. We don't go and start a new religion. We are the living stones that get added to that holy temple.

Are your reading the scriptures I'm citeing? I'm backing up what im telling you with bible facts.

[quote=Krogith]Galatians 3 :20
Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, But God is only One.

You don't even understand what you're saying. I'm the one trying to tell you that Jesus is God. You are the one trying to say that Jesus is a mediator. God is one. Jesus is LORD.

Jesus is lord over us by means of his father. Through Jesus we can draw close to what God wants us to be doing. Through Jesus ( his death and by following what he did) we can recive everlasting life from his Father Jehovah (yhwh). Your makeing jesus ( a creation) equle to God wich he is not. Jesus is our Lord and saveur. Your takeing a Title like president and saying it's god.

Jesus was 1st of all creation. He is Jehovah God's son, and lord of all other creation because hes Jehovah God's master Worker. Through Jesus all other things were created. But it was still Jehovah god's will. Jesus can't do anything with out Jehovah God's say so.

If you choose not to look the scripts I cited for you Thats on you.

Why did Jesus say that the writings of Moses were his words? Answer: Cause Jesus is the Word of God. Just like it says in the book of John. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

When was God manifest in the flesh?

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Originally Posted by IanCurtisWishlist

jesus this.
moses that.
abraham hit me with a wiffle ball bat.

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Let the sinning... Begin.

I don't have faith in religion primarily for one reason.
Krogith said it.
"We are being challanged by Satan. He says we do not need God and we can be god's of our selfs."
If I were to somehow beleive that I truly can't be a god of myself, I would feel there is no point to my life. My absolute inner-most incentive to live is that I hold my reality, my future, and maybe even my possible after life in my hands.
To be handed the rules of existence and reality on a platter, all neat and simplified, with a nice big fat "All You Need Is Faith", defies the very core of my rational mind. It would destroy the fabric of my sanity to beleive in religion.
I've always seen religious people as beneath me. They're either sheep, lazy, or cowards. It's for simpler people.
The whole story seems so silly to me. Like a fairy tale. Honestly, if it wasn't for the style it was written, I prolly would have read the bible front to back like various other fantasy novels in my collection.

I am my own God.
Religions influence on mankind has done nothing but bad. If you ask me, Faith is Satan. The bible was written by evil. The higher powers are looking down on our planet, with a sad grim expression on their face.

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

Why did Jesus say that the writings of Moses were his words? Answer: Cause Jesus is the Word of God. Just like it says in the book of John. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

When was God manifest in the flesh?

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Jesus lead a perfect life and was the word of god. In the beginning The word you speak of WAS THE WILL OF GOD this is saying that no matter what happend his Word will happen. Just because Satan has bumbed us God Word will still rule and suceed. Jesus was of course The Word of God He spoke and tought in the SAME WAY GOD WOULD OF. His Words would be the same as if God Was speaking. He tought Exactly as his FATHER IN HEAVEN WOULD. Read carefully all the scriptures. And seriously goto some dead sea scroll references or another old translation.

In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian ("De pud." c. xxi). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:

This is from The New Catholic encyclopedia

Sounds to me like it's made up after christ. Don't you think if it was true earlyer bible writers would have it in the text? I could bring up more if you want?

It's just a simple missconception Passed to the masses who don;t want to look stuff up for them self. It has no bible baises and is missleading.

Also please 2 corinthians 1:3

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Originally Posted by Inferius

I've always seen religious people as beneath me. They're either sheep, lazy, or cowards. It's for simpler people.

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My, aren't you an arrogant ass ?

Educated, as well. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Duckys

LOL Religion! Its just used to help people deal with things they cant understand. Like death..

But the people who believe god exists are going to do so no matter what you say because thats how they were brought up. Ignorance is bliss.

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I know numerous people who had never set foot in a church until they were grown.

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Originally Posted by Mud Dauber

My, aren't you an arrogant ass ?

Educated, as well. :thumbsup:

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I'm just being honest.
And stoned.

sorry if I sound like an idiot.
i used to get worried that I did,
but it would take away from the high,
So I guess i've become too comfortable with my stoned stupidity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Inferius

sorry if I sound like an idiot.
i used to get worried that I did,
but it would take away from the high,
So I guess i've become too comfortable with my stoned stupidity.

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ha ha ha ! At least you're honest about it ;)

Krogith,

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me"

"TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you."

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Since you are denying Jesus, then you don't know the Father. You are just like those who put Jesus to the cross. He claimed to be "equal" with God, so they killed him. You are doing the same thing as they did unto him.

In the old testament:

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

In the new testament:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

I AM THAT IS! worship me, and i will give you cheese and crackers....am i a god yet? lol, sorry this post isnt supposed to exist

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

Krogith,

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me" ( Drawing close to Jesus is getting to Know his Father)

"TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." ( Talking to pagan god's, has nothing to do with Jesus being God)

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." ( If you deny Jesus and him dieing for your sins then how can you except his father in heaven that sent him forth)

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." ( If you do not belive that Jesus is Gods Son and the 1st of all creation and he died for your sins, Than you can not ever Draw close to Jehovah God)

Since you are denying Jesus, then you don't know the Father. You are just like those who put Jesus to the cross. He claimed to be "equal" with God, so they killed him. You are doing the same thing as they did unto him.

In the old testament:

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." ( Jesus Was Sent By his Father the one who was TALKING to Moses)

In the new testament:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

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(( Jesus was 1st of all creation and was and is in Heaven with the angles, That where created by him through the WORD OF HIS FATHER JEHOVAH) of couse he was around befor abraham)


Mark 13:32 "But of that day or that hour no one knows, Not even the angles in heaven, nor the Son, But only the Father"

am I helping you understand? I have never forsaken Jesus and the role he plays, only by means of him can we even talk to his father, let alone recive what is ment for us after armageddon. But putting Jesus as God is Wrong.

Jesus is still our lord. He rules us under Jehovah God's laws

Mud Dauber, I have empirical evidence that poker can support a family because I do it myself. Is that good enough for you? I'm not suggesting that anyone can do it, it requires a certain patience, and some skill and the ability to count. Not everyone has these skills.

Maybe I used the wrong words to explain my position re God. What I am saying is that there is no empirical evidence to support his existence. It is a matter of faith, not science. You agree with this, surely?

I can't see God all around me, I see phenomena as yet unexplained. I am sure that, in time, science will offer explanations. I am not a scientist, but I trust in science. Science invented the internal combustion engine and the jet engine, and I can now fly at the speed of sound if I so wish. God hasn't shown me a way to do that without science.

There are many explanations for your friend's experience. Perhaps it is because so many stories do the rounds about out of body experiences that they sink into our subconscious and come out at times like this. You know, if you are knocked out you can have all kinds of out of body experiences. I've been knocked out (I mean sparko) on two occasions and I experienced a similar thing (though not quite so vivid) myself. Certain opiates can provide the same thing. I don't know how familiar you are with opiates but I can assure you it is a common occurence. The same with LSD. That will make anyone see God, but I prefer an alternative explanation. I don't have all the answers, or even any of them really, but that does not mean I put it down to God by default.

You have faith, I do not. If God is a force for good, let him show it. To use a poker term, I want to see his hand... I call his Bible and raise hiim the weight of scientific opinion in the wake of the enlightenment.

All in...

(waits to see God's hand) :D

Ignatius God has shown his hand through history. Your playing agenst a Royal Flush. with not even a pair

I need to see the hand. I've paid for it, it's no good you telling me he has a good hand..I need to see it.

Any time he's ready...

i snuck a peek for you man, he has a duece an ace a queen a five and a 9

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Originally Posted by Ignatius

I need to see the hand. I've paid for it, it's no good you telling me he has a good hand..I need to see it.

Any time he's ready...

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The dealer is shuffling the cards. Keep your eyes on the dealer and watch his hands. When the dealer flips the cards over, the cards will show their faces to all that are watching.

If you could "see" the hand, you wouldn't have to hope for a good hand.

This doesn't mean that hope has no substance. Hope comes with evidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ignatius

Mud Dauber, I have empirical evidence that poker can support a family because I do it myself. Is that good enough for you? I'm not suggesting that anyone can do it, it requires a certain patience, and some skill and the ability to count. Not everyone has these skills.

Maybe I used the wrong words to explain my position re God. What I am saying is that there is no empirical evidence to support his existence. It is a matter of faith, not science. You agree with this, surely?

I can't see God all around me, I see phenomena as yet unexplained. I am sure that, in time, science will offer explanations. I am not a scientist, but I trust in science. Science invented the internal combustion engine and the jet engine, and I can now fly at the speed of sound if I so wish. God hasn't shown me a way to do that without science.

There are many explanations for your friend's experience. Perhaps it is because so many stories do the rounds about out of body experiences that they sink into our subconscious and come out at times like this. You know, if you are knocked out you can have all kinds of out of body experiences. I've been knocked out (I mean sparko) on two occasions and I experienced a similar thing (though not quite so vivid) myself. Certain opiates can provide the same thing. I don't know how familiar you are with opiates but I can assure you it is a common occurence. The same with LSD. That will make anyone see God, but I prefer an alternative explanation. I don't have all the answers, or even any of them really, but that does not mean I put it down to God by default.

You have faith, I do not. If God is a force for good, let him show it. To use a poker term, I want to see his hand... I call his Bible and raise hiim the weight of scientific opinion in the wake of the enlightenment.

All in...

(waits to see God's hand) :D

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I'm not aware of anyone doing experiments to see if God exists. Are you ? He did, however, give us (some of us ;) ) brilliant minds to be able to invent the internal combustion engine and the jet engine, among other things.

Iggy, you said yourself that you had a second job as backup - so how are you supporting your family with poker ? :D

I would now like to use my brilliant mind to make another observation - either A. you are an insomniac or B. working your two jobs has you up and about at odd hours. If it is B, then either your family also holds odd hours, or you never see them.

I fear that you won't see his hand until you die, Iggy, and then you will be saying OH SH!T, did I really waste all my time on that sorry hand ?

About opiates and LSD - I have done many of both in my lifetime (I was a Wild Child back in the day ;) ), and never have I had an "out of body" experience. Neither have I known anyone on opiates or LSD to have experienced that, and I've known some doozies, I can tell you. Neither have I "seen God" on acid. Your sentence made me burst out laughing. (why don't they have a laugh smiley ?)

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Originally Posted by MastaChronic

i snuck a peek for you man, he has a duece an ace a queen a five and a 9

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I thought you weren't going to post on here anymore ? :confused:

Can't stay away, can you ? :p

Mud Dauber, the paucity of your argument leads you to cast aspersions on the time I spend with my family?

Shame on you.

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Originally Posted by Ignatius

Mud Dauber, the paucity of your argument leads you to cast aspersions on the time I spend with my family?

Shame on you.

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Au contraire ! My argument is neither small, nor am I criticizing you on how you spend your family time !

I merely used the powers of deduction that I so carefully honed in my chemistry classes at college to come to the conclusion that I did. You live in Great Britain, you are posting on here at 9 and 10 PM my time - and since GB only has one time zone, then it is 3 and 4 AM where you are. So, either you are an insomniac, or you work odd hours. :thumbsup: No meanness there, sir. None at all :)

You forget that I also have children, and as I also have a job, I don't always get to spend as much time with them as I would like. I would not slate a fellow working parent.

Do not be so quick to bow up :)

But what does the time I do or do not spend with my family have to do with our discussion? It really isn't anyone's business but mine and theirs what hours I keep. We'd all like to spend more time with our children, but work is a necessity. Whether I put my work hours in throught the night, through the day, or a mixture of both is neither here nor there.

Capice kimo sabie?

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Originally Posted by Ignatius

But what does the time I do or do not spend with my family have to do with our discussion? It really isn't anyone's business but mine and theirs what hours I keep. We'd all like to spend more time with our children, but work is a necessity. Whether I put my work hours in throught the night, through the day, or a mixture of both is neither here nor there.

Capice kimo sabie?

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I do understand, it was just an observation. Don't worry, I often talk about things out of the blue that have no bearing on anything. It drives my loved ones mad. :D

I see you like popular culture. It's "Kemo Sabe", or "Kemosabe", and I'm glad to see that you trust me, and think of me as a friend. ;)