:S2: Seriously i am way to baked to read that again! I'm still hurting!hAHAHAHAHAHAHAQuote:
Originally Posted by sd6515
Printable View
:S2: Seriously i am way to baked to read that again! I'm still hurting!hAHAHAHAHAHAHAQuote:
Originally Posted by sd6515
The original question in this thread was about whether there was any way to prove our memories really happened or were they just put into our minds --- is reality the way we remember it or just some kind of simulation. I think reality is pretty much the way we experience it, but I like the question anyway.
But it occured to me that some of the same kinds of issues come up for creationist ideas for the origin of the universe. I don't believe in creationism becasue there is so much scientific evidence for the age of the universe, the age of the earth, and the evolution of species. Some people who have tried to convince me of the creationist origin of the universe have told me that God created the universe only a couple of thousand years ago and he killed off the dinosaurs and other extinct species in the Great Flood, or that carbon dating doesn't work because the world was different in the past, or the Great Flood changed the chemistry. I never could believe any of that because of what I said earlier about the universe being internally consistent. I don't believe the laws of physics changed over time. Creationist ideas that involve the Great Flood or some other mechanism for obscuring the scientific evidence are not internally consistent with other scientific evidence. They are subject to scientific testing and can be disproven.
Other creationists have told me God created the universe only a couple of thousand years ago, but he put all the fossils in the ground and all the sedimentary rock and other geological and carbon date evidence in place as if the universe was much older. That idea is a lot more similar to what we are talking about here. As long as you think God created an internally consistent universe with a fake past that is consisitent with the evidence we see today, then there is no way to PROVE that he didn't create it a few thousend yeas ago, or even just a minute ago. From the point of view of PROVING it, there is no difference between that kind of creationist idea and the idea of a Matrix-like virtual reality. You can't prove either one is not true. Both ideas are outside of science because they cannot be tested.
If you want to believe the universe is internally consistent but is fake, then you should ask why. Why would God create a fake past and evidence for bilions of years of history if the universe was only a few thousand years old? Or why would some race of aliens create a virtual reality for us to live in? I can't really figure out a reason why God would not just either make the universe 15 billion yaears old or make it 6 thousand years old and leave it at that. There's no good reason to make it 6 thousand years old but make it look 15 biliion years old. But the aliens are a totally different thing! They might create a virtual reality just to keep us their willing slaves, or use our brains as batteries, or do freaky alien sex on us.
and it is at this point I make my exit I've learned my lesson about discussing religion creation and all with VERY misinformed people the only thing in this post that holds any truth towards religion is when you said you were told. Because as even stated earlier in this thread the term days in the Bible does not mean days but is a translation from a word that also means EONS which means that religion and evolution are not mutually exclusive and just because everyone would rather fight there side then realize they are actually arguing the same circumstances but misinformed does not mean that true educated and open minded Christians like all I know and assosciate with do not agree with these crazy fundalmentalist creating stories of how we were made simply because a word was translated as day instead of eon. God did not place fossils on the earth and all that was stated and true educated Christians do not believe this either and it is very insultive for you to assume that that is what we believe when it is simply not true and unfair to assume and state this.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonrider
yeah, it started as a question got into an agruement, that got settled, and started going good, then .....BOOM it died thread sewn, snipped, and forgotten.
This only makes me think of one thing and that is the question of how do you know anything is real?
We could all be figments of your imagination and then again you could all just be figments of mine.However if that were the case you would all be 18 year old females and I would be ruler of the world.
Look, I absolutely did not want to start an argument or ruin this thread. I did not mean to offend you or anyone else. I get your earlier point about eons versus days. And I would never presume to tell you what you believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by sd6515
I was refering to what I have been told by other people who I have had these creationist conversations with and trying to relate it to the original question of the thread, which was probably a big mistake considering the kind of emotion it stirred up. Anyway, I have had plenty of conversations with Christians who believe that the universe is billions of year old, created over vast expanses of time (eons!) and that evolution occured over that time. That sounds like maybe it's a little more in line with what you believe, but I will not try to characterize your personal beliefs.
I have had other conversations with other people who believe in the exact literal truth of the creation story in the Bible. I think you just referred to those people as "crazy fundamentalists." Harsh, Dude! Anyway, my experience has been that if you bring up things like the fossil record with someone who belives in the literal story, they will bring up the flood or some other biblical event that they think explains some alternative for how the fossils got there, or they will say that God put them there. That is my experinece. I'm not saying you think that or any other particular person or class of people think that. I'm saying I've had that conversation more than once.
To get back to the point of the original thread, if a person believed God just created the 15 billion years of fossil record and put it in the universe, even though he only created the universe 6 thousand years ago, then there is no way to disprove it. Just like there is no way to prove we don't live in the Matrix. I don't believe that God created a fake fossil record (and it desn't sound like you do either), and I don't believe in the Matrix, but I can't PROVE either one is not true.
Again I'm sorry if I offended you. I wasn't really responding to anything you wrote. It took me so long to write my post that I don't think your stuff about eons and such like was even posted when I started. I defnitely was not responding to your post.
alright and my bad for coming on so hard but I think it has a lot to do with recently leaving a very harsh thread that was shut down that was full constant insults and assumptions of the christian religion. I am sorry if I came on too strong as well.
Also when I refer to crazy fundamentalist it is not just what they believe in but how they act on it forcing religion down everyones throats, refusing to listen to reasonable arguments, telling all non christians they are damned to an eternity in hell(to me a funny thing to say because if someone doesn't believe in your God why would they believe in your hell) and all in all giving the christian religion a bad name through there actions not just there beliefs. Similar but in a much less drastic or extreme way that Islam is a peaceful religion but fundamentalists Islams go around blowing things up as "part of there religion" making a lot of uneducated people think they are a religion of hate which is FAR from the truth.
Again I am sorry for coming on so strong just residual effects of a previous bad thread I guess.
Hey kidz I am over this depressing thread lets liven this bitch up! waht is your favorite thing to do high
Mine is PING PONG! SOO dope! i am soo much better high!
Play Wii Sports WAY better high
Well... many posts after... im here again.
You are right, we (still) cant prove that we live (or dont) into a Matrix, or into some alien simulation, or whatever. Soon i will arrive there. But first:
Somebody mentioned self-consistency of the universe... well... i think its not a very good way for testing it... as we humans have a very bad tendence to close our eyes to what we cant understand, or dont want to see... for example, take the things called "paranormal", like psychokinesis, telepathy and such... or the so-called "miracles", present in every religion... well, most scientists will say that this things doenst even exist, so they wont bother to search and see if they are real or not. And it happens with everybody. When we see a thing that dont fit our view of world, we simply discard it as "illusion", "hallucination", and so. Doing this, we keep our world consistent, even if the proofs of its unconsistency were right before our eyes.
And we arrive at the matrix question... well... i dont know if we live in a computer-based simulation, but im sure (its my own belief, mind you) that we call "reality" is only a product of our minds, not a "real" thing. What we see is not the world itself, but the electromagnetic waves recieved by our eyes, and interpreted by our brain. So, we are very far from the "reality" itself. Its not my idea, it comes from long long ago... Buddha already said that the world is a illusion, Plato talked about its cave, don Juan Matus also said the same... and, interestingly enough, some days ago a member of cann.com had an very interesting experience, where he supposedly reached the nirvana and did see the "real" nature of the things... and his description is very similar to many other descriptions of this kind of experience, and thats why i really believe that he really did see the "true" nature of reality.
If you wish to read it, look at:
http://boards.cannabis.com/spiritual...iscussion.html
BTW, i know the discussion of the nature of the reality is endless, as well as the discussion of the nature of the past, as well as most (if not all) phylosophical discussions... anyway... if its our duty to discuss, then lets do it!