Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by emilya
I encourage all posts which discuss the practical aspects of this & similar future experiments.
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Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by emilya
I encourage all posts which discuss the practical aspects of this & similar future experiments.
Hi Vanduction,
I just turned on to your grow. There is a serious problem with your induction set up that may explain why they are not performing up to par.
You need to have your fan higher than your bulb these lights need a certain amount of heat to keep at full output. Any cooling of the bulb will cause the bulb to loose up to 50% of brightness after about a hour of operation. We have a lot of experience with these lights and this is one of the most common problems growers do with these bulbs. We only sell these set ups with reflectors only we don't sell just the bulb and ballast for this reason. Our reflector design is important too in keeping the bulb at the right temperature. You replied to me in another thread and told me you live in my area. Please give me a call and i can help you with your set up.
Bubbas what temperature do you think would be best for generic chinese induction lamps?
Right now the temperature probes are inside the heating thermostat, but out of curiosity I will put them on top of the shades and see what they register.
Aside from the differences in manufacturing of these fixtures, drivers, couplings and lamps, and they are substantial, I'll address the general operational values of induction EFDL systems, not the self ballasted, screw in style internal electrode styles of induction;Quote:
Originally Posted by vanduction
higher wattage, 250+, induction lamps are used inside freezers because they can operate in ambient conditions as low as 40 Deg F (-40 Deg C). While the lower wattages need to be a minimum starting temperature of -13 Deg F/ -25 Deg C. The temperatures in the grow environment do not impact lumen output. I completely agree with the relector point for a different reason in that that the reflector design is extremely important to overall lumen distribution and qty of photons measured at the canopy.
For your future reference, but not likely to be seen in these environments, would be the maximum temperature ranges for the Driver housing temperature should never exceed 149 Deg. F (65 Deg C). Thus to maximize system life, ambient temperature of the driver should be kept as low as possible.
Lamp: temperature of the lamp mounting base of the induction core should never exceed 212 Deg F (100 Deg C). Amalgam tip: temperature must be within the range of 131 Deg F to 257 Deg F 9 (55 Deg C to 125 Deg C) for optimal light output.
On the lower wattage screw in style internal electrode induction lamps most of the failures with these lamps we see from base up installation of the lamps mounted inside a reflector that traps the heat inside the base driver.
On the higher wattage EFDL it's usually fixture design, lack of heat sinks and the fixture having an IP65 rating which is designed for outdoor applications, such as tunnels, where any surface heat is quickly evacuated from the surface of the fixture. In a grow room the glass is trapping the heat and lamp/driver failure with the hours these fixtures are running do not allow for adequate ventilation and inevitably result in premature failure.
Best of luck on this grow and I hope this information helps.
I'm about two years ahead of you, just to give you a time frame of reference as a courtesy.Quote:
Originally Posted by vanduction
Want to know the specific 6 wavelengths Cannabis responds to? I've already promised to not make the light for myself and give out the info, so do what you want.
Here are the minimum specs:
30% blue +/-5% in either direction for 460 or 420nm blue, plus 35% +/-5% for 660nm red and 630nm red.
I cannot give you the UV and IR specs that provide super-growth, because it's not for cannabis, it's for fruiting plants like tomatoes and peppers, and cannabis fails under the same type of light.
Cannabis does better under higher amounts of blue, up to 40% blue (wavelength is indeterminate for now,) for flowering power/bud density. This is according to a personal e-mail from someone on this site. I will not expose them, I'll let them expose themselves when I send them the proper equipment to test against my own to make it a fair test. John Lydon has made good note that 290nm increases bud potency in his earlier tests in the later 80s for his Ph.D.
We can only test this stuff for now, but I am sure (with my own sales of personally-grown overstock to dispensaries on a single-blind test versus their stuff on the spot,) that my stuff has topped theirs by far. They offered too much for an ounce of my stuff - I only paid a total of $25 per ounce to produce, they wanted to pay $200.
I refused and gave it at $100/oz. I am not greedy, I pay my taxes, and I don't go for the gold.
Granted this will not apply to every strain. This was fine-tuned but it should yield in a similar manner, within 20% yield weight depending upon how thick you let your plants get.
Remember the YouTube video - 90w LED was = 400w HPS in veg, but not bloom. You need at least half the HID power in LED to match.
I am requesting input from the readers of this thread:
Bubba believes the performance of my induction lamp would be improved if the shade were enclosed on all 4 sides, trapping heat and keeping it warmer.
I have my opinion, but would like to hear what others think: Should I make this change for the final 3-4 weeks of flowering?
If you don't believe me get yourself a light meter either Lux or quantum and measure output after start up and warm up and wait a couple hours and measure again or better yet have your fan come on and take a measurment then turn off your fan and take a reading and watch it climb. We notice in our 400 watt the ouput dropped from 39000 lux to a mere 13000 after a cou[le hours. but don't take my word for it test it yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by vanduction
There is only 10 days left until harvest so I decided to leave the lamp unchanged for the rest of this particular test. If this lamp is used again, it will (among other potential changes) have the shade enclosed to trap heat.
Both sides are still unimpressive, but the HPS still has the lead. Also you can see the leaves on the HPS are yellowing/dying a lot more than on the induction. Don't know what to make of that yet.
HPS:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9...sflower.th.jpghttp://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5...hpsside.th.jpg
Induction:
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4...dflower.th.jpghttp://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8...indside.th.jpg
The yellowing is due to the HPS providing more PPFD than the induction lamp, the plant is using more nutrients as it receives higher energy amounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by vanduction
As far as the increasing of efficiency - induction lamps don't work like regular fluorescents that use electrodes. Electrode-based lamps run more efficient the hotter they get. Induction requires it to be cooler, and you need to direct as much of the EMF as possible directly into the tube.
If you want to increase the efficiency, you'll need to build a better waveguide in the tube and build a better diamagnetic shield around the entire enclosure to keep that EMF focused in the tube area for higher output.
lol... I need a bong hit after that one!Quote:
Originally Posted by khyberkitsune
me too.
Again with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by emilya
Diamagnetism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You know cursory Google or Wiki searches can EASILY explain half of what I'm talking about, without making yourself look like a fool.
My response to you is:Quote:
Originally Posted by khyberkitsune
acyrologia - Wiktionary
Dude, no need to be potentially or should I say possibly rude... (it's an inside joke).Quote:
Originally Posted by khyberkitsune
Less than a week until harvest!
I decided not to modify the shade. Although I believe Bubba's advice would result in better yield, I felt it would not yield useful information to modify the cabinet in the middle of the grow. If this lamp is used in a future experiment, I will certainly make design changes based on his input.
The HPS clearly has more substantial flowers, and apparently more resin. I have used slightly larger pictures than before to try to show this off.
HPS Pictures
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5...sheight.th.jpghttp://img715.imageshack.us/img715/5...sflower.th.jpg
Induction Pictures
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4...dheight.th.jpghttp://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2...dflower.th.jpg
Wow, I want to know the results of this. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by vanduction
I am very interested in this grow. I have been in contact with a Chinese supplier. I was quoted almost $ 300 for shipping a 400 watt lamp 2700k with the housing (36 kg monster lol) ! So I asked for a quote on just the ballast and the lamp w/o the housing. The shipping comes to $ 80.00. I have negotiated a reasonable price but am still pessimistic with the credibility of its performance. This grow could determine my decision to buy one so please keep us updated
Thank you :jointsmile:
Taken just before the plants were cut:
HPS:
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4...sflower.th.jpghttp://img38.imageshack.us/img38/199...hpsside.th.jpg
Induction:
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3...dflower.th.jpghttp://img831.imageshack.us/img831/3...indside.th.jpg
The final results are in!
Heights:
- HPS: grew about 14" above the soil. There was 22" of clearance to the lamp
- Ind: grew about 12" above the soil. There was 25" of clearance to the lamp
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7...hpsroom.th.jpghttp://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2...indroom.th.jpg
These clones can easily grow to 24"+ in this amount of time, so next experiment I will lower the lamps 8"-12" (depending on power used) to increase performance.
Yields:
The container used to weigh is 32 grams. All weights were done with freshly cut WET flowers:
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9...sweight.th.jpghttp://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5...dweight.th.jpg
- HPS: 195.9 - 32 = 163.9g
- Ind: 109.9 - 32 = 77.9g
Hey Van, I've been lurking here watching all the action...very interesting btw! Would you also post up the dry numbers when available? So what did you conclude? If the dry weights are comparable, looks like I'll keep running my HID's for awhile longer! Thanks a lot for taking the time do this and to post all this...I look forward to watching your next test, whatever it may be! :thumbsup:
Power vs. Grams:
I will ignore the incidental power used to heat or cool the cabinets. Although we all know typically less heat is better because it saves on cooling costs, it's outside the scope of today's experiment.
- HPS: ratio: 0.52g/w (Power used: 315w. Weight produced: 164g.)
- Ind: Ratio: 0.57g/w (Power used: 138w. Weight produced: 78g.)
Conclusions:
I feel it's safe to conclude that, under the conditions of this experiment:
- This induction lamp did NOT produce the same yield as an HPS lamp when using only 50% of power
- This HPS lamp is only 93% as power efficient as this Induction/CFL combination
Notes for future experiments:
- A vendor has claimed enclosing the induction lamp's shade would increase its performance
- Insulation & white poly sheathing will be added to the cabinets to improve temperature stability & light focus
- Lamps will be lowered 8"-12" to get closer to the expected final height
If I still have it after it's dried, I will. It would also be nice to give it to a reefer fiend to smoke & give a subjective opinion on the quality, but I can't promise anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by TANKJR
According to JC, you can estimate dried weight at about 25% of wet weight. Thanks for posting all this! I appreciate your time and effort. :thumbsup: :jointsmile:
HPS: 48g dry
Ind: 28g dry
Bubbas offered me one of his units to test a few weeks ago... now that the next batch is starting up I hope he follows through soon!
I'm very interested to see how a fully designed unit compares to an HPS.
Hi there Vanduction,
I would like to know more about the induction lamp you used for your experiment. I am asking this because i am currently working with one of the chinese manufacturers of induction lighting called Shanghai Genesis lighting and i would love to see the results comparing HPS vs induction or CFL. The fact is that i cant view any of the pics due to the internet ban i have here in China so if you could send me your results i would really appreciate them.
Also if you are still interested in testing more the induction lighting technology get back to me at [email protected] and i will propose you something interesting that will benefit both of us.