HID Time factor manipulation

Weezard, I'm thinking it'll be a wickedly stealth smoke stash box. Or atleast a "hide-a-key" that I can't loose but can never remember. It's weird, the surgery was supposed to on my hips. Ortho Dr. sent me to Neuro Dr. to check out some nerve damage in my leg before cutting. I have epilepsy and been 3yrs since last MRI and I been feelin' pretty bad (vertigo, equilibrium probs, tired, very very weak) for a while. MRI my head just in case. So, my hips are still killing me and now it seems like hip surgery is not in the cards anytime soon 'till nerve damage gets better. Head feels no pain. Just found the Cerebellular Ataxia on Friday. Neuro Dr. seems confused as I should be. LOL. I bet this means "We're gonna have to do some more tests." I've come to learn that testing always means more tests. Enough off topic crap.

I haven't been giving the veg stage of growth much thought. I normally pop seeds under 2700kCFLs & 6500kCFLs 1:2 ratio w/ a couple red party lights. Normally veg under 6500kCFLs or tubes. Mothers under 6500k CFLs. As I recall I was running a few 2700k with the mothers but pulled them as I was having trouble with some moms trying to flower at 18/6 and even at 20/4. This was causing really long recovery time after taking clones. I tried 24hrs but didn't like the results. Seemed clones took longer to root and plants just didn't seem healthy.

Rauber's simple 18/6 method boasts better growth per watt. But what about overly eager strains? Is there more or less chance of premature flowering of mothers with this method? More importantly does it offer increased medical concentrations in the finished product? Does it actually speed up growth? Stretch? I wouldn't mind a little more speed on moms so I can keep fewer mothers and get the same amount of clones. Doesn't seem to be enough data on veg. I have to admit that 90% of my efforts were concentrated on flower. Beginning to wonder if I could be missing something though.

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Originally Posted by scott9116

Weezard, I'm thinking it'll be a wickedly stealth smoke stash box. Or atleast a "hide-a-key" that I can't lose but can never remember. It's weird, the surgery was supposed to on my hips. Ortho Dr. sent me to Neuro Dr. to check out some nerve damage in my leg before cutting. I have epilepsy and been 3yrs since last MRI and I been feelin' pretty bad (vertigo, equilibrium probs, tired, very very weak) for a while. MRI my head just in case. So, my hips are still killing me and now it seems like hip surgery is not in the cards anytime soon 'till nerve damage gets better.

Call me gypsy doctor, but, lemme tell ya a little tale.
Also had "nerve damage" and stabbing pains in both hips.
Did all the usual, including cortisone shot to the hip joints.
Nothing helped.
Well, actually, Anti-inflammatorys, noteably, Aleve, helped.

After years of pain and frustration with the medical profession, I had occasion to apply an ice pack, to my lower back.
The burning, stabbing, hip pains stopped!:)
The pain was being referred by a pinched nerve.
It had naught to do with my hip joints
It was actually a back problem.
A good doctor should have caught that, because it was bi-lateral, treatment applied to the hip joint was ineffective, and the tops of my feet "burned and tingled".
I'm just sayin'...
Things aren't always what they seem.
People are, um "un-equally talented".
Get a second and third opinion, before anybody starts cutting anything, yah?.


Head feels no pain. Just found the Cerebellular Ataxia on Friday. Neuro Dr. seems confused as I should be. LOL. I bet this means "We're gonna have to do some more tests." I've come to learn that testing always means more tests. Enough off topic crap.

I haven't been giving the veg stage of growth much thought. I normally pop seeds under 2700kCFLs & 6500kCFLs 1:2 ratio w/ a couple red party lights. Normally veg under 6500kCFLs or tubes. Mothers under 6500k CFLs. As I recall I was running a few 2700k with the mothers but pulled them as I was having trouble with some moms trying to flower at 18/6 and even at 20/4. This was causing really long recovery time after taking clones. I tried 24hrs but didn't like the results. Seemed clones took longer to root and plants just didn't seem healthy.

Agreed.
Had the same take.
24 hr's jus' not right for mos' critters.
And 18/6 does seem to be the sweet spot for cannabis..

Rauber's simple 18/6 method boasts better growth per watt. But what about overly eager strains? Is there more or less chance of premature flowering of mothers with this method?

Ah dunno.
Kinda hopin' that you lot sort that all out.

More importantly does it offer increased medical concentrations in the finished product? Does it actually speed up growth? Stretch? I wouldn't mind a little more speed on moms so I can keep fewer mothers and get the same amount of clones. Doesn't seem to be enough data on veg. I have to admit that 90% of my efforts were concentrated on flower. Beginning to wonder if I could be missing something though.

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No doubt!
We're always missing some kine something.:)
Question is, are we missing something important?:D

You can increase medical concentrations by withholding UVb until just before harvest.

You can control stretch by changing the R:B at the proper time.

I'll leave the speeding up to you guys, I have not been able to do that.
I'm in no hurry.:rastasmoke:
But I am keen to learn.
So, I'll jus' lurk about on the ceiling if nobody minds.

Aloha,
Weeze

good stuff here~gotta luv it! subscribed :thumbsup:

Good advice Weez. I'm gonna try to get a few other Dr.s to look at these MRI images. Problem is there aren't any neuro docs taking new patients in my area. Might try Emailing the pics to a few places. Maybe, if I'm interesting enough... LOL

I suppose that after the babies get bigger and I have enough of them the experiments will start at veg. The speed thing isn't all that important to me just a way to have less moms to look after. I'm thinking that having fewer strains to deal with might simplify things, but some can't handle the crushing heavy indicas like NL and HB (might get even get meaner now). One guy hated the EMH coconut flavor. One thing is for sure, myself and the few other mmj users I know hate having to mess with drug dealers.

Welcome Str8. Hopefully we can all learn something here.

Rauber's simple 18/6 method boasts better growth per watt.

This method uses two timers..One for the blue (445nm and lower) and one for the red (660nm). Very simple IMO.

The blue timer stays on the whole 18 hours. The red timer cycles on and off every half hour.So you have red/blue then just blue then red/blue and so on. Also you start the red 660nm timer 15 mins after your blue timer starts.That schedule makes it so the red spectrum goes off 15 min before the 18 hours of blue goes off. This gives your plants 15 mins of blue 445nm and lower spectrum just before they go to bed . No 730nm spectrum is used in this veg method so no stretch is involved..

Now.... knowing that blue LED's (445nm and lower) creates a very compact plant structure and 660 doesn't cause stretch.. What you end up with is a very strong structured plant with excellent growth..

Sal will answer and make my post seem elementary...LOL:thumbsup:

I assume that the blue period could be extended to 19 or 20 hours if I have mothers that try to flower? Or does that defeat the point of using the method? Or does the method tame the horny girls?

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Originally Posted by scott9116

I assume that the blue period could be extended to 19 or 20 hours if I have mothers that try to flower? Or does that defeat the point of using the method? Or does the method tame the horny girls?

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Yes, you are correct.. You can go 18/19/20..ect..As far as horny girls goes. What usually tames them is a longer Rauber's simple method.. So ya 19 or 20 hours of blue time will tame the semi-auto flower moms.. Hope that helps..:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Weezard

No gotta wait brah.:thumbsup:
I got choke arthritis kine.
And some hash that will make ya say arth-who?
Come try it.

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I Thank You for the kind invite.You've made me feel welcome both at your home and on this forum . May your cup always be full.

somewhere in these threads it seems i read that an incan blacklight would be safer to use as a SID nightlight than a green incan.can ya'll explain this?

Black lights are the only incandescent light bulbs that are as close to the 730nm (only) spectrum you can get.

Incandescent black lights are actually a form of Standard Outdoor Darkness (SOD). So yes they can be used as a flowering night light.. BUT inc black lights (only) during your 12/12 flowering darkness will cause unwanted stretch for sure. After the stretch phase is over however then black lights (only) can be used for some SPEED, but not very efficiently IMO...Inc black lights have a time factor of aprox .9 and are very fast as far as spectrums go because they give off mostly 730nm.

IMO you need to be careful about adding speed to your normal 12/12 flowering (dark time)..To much speed will cause your lighting schedule to go from a 12/12 to a 10/14 type of flowering in a heartbeat especially if your using HID. So a little goes a long way..It's ok to do it at the end of a normal 12/12 type of flower, maybe for the last two or three weeks. But again it's not the most efficient way of adding speed to the flowering time IMO unless your doing a 24/12 type of flowering. For every hour of black lights (only) used during your normal flowering (dark time) you will get aprox 1.1 hours worth of SID darkness. So using black lights for let's say 5 hours will give you aprox 5.5 hours of SID. And using them for 12 hours will give you aprox 13.3 hours of SID darkness. So ya they work in a normal 12/12 flower if you know what your doing with them... Hope that helps ya...

The funny thing about green inc's is.. They will make your girls come out of flowering unless you use a filter with them. The only spectrums that work for the dark phase of a flowering cycle is 530nm and above. If I'm not mistaken green inc's fall below this range. So they can be used but I think you will need to use a filter with them.. Again not worth it..

Is that the answer you were looking for or no..:thumbsup:

Alright, I'm gonna have to change some plans. B&Hphoto shipped me the wrong bulbs. On the other hand the ones the sent are much more expensive than what I ordered. Actually, Desmar B&H's supplier sent German made Osram L58W60 five red and one blue. Very hard to get in the US if you actually try. Us equivalent that I've found are from Wildfire, Inc. - F60T8/B - Lamp, FL T8, Blue, 60W At $80 each. I'm thinking Osram might be the actual manufacturer. I paid for Desisti brand tubes $18 each. Problem is these are 60" long. Therefore, I must modify everything. You must always pay for good fortune. Specs: red 3800Lm 658nm peak blue 1600lm 421nm peak. Not a ton of actual lumens, I know but they should all be usable. I still have 2 4' HO 625nm red. 2 4' HO 420nm blue & 2 4' HO 450nm blue all Kinoflo brand unsure of lumen output but they be bright. All together 810watts Flouropower. Guessing about 40,000 lumens at the abusolute minimum (Assuming the KinoFlowBLues are comparable to the Osram). I think they are much brighter that 1600lm though. Adding all this up I might have been better off with LED's.lol. I got the gearbox, gear motor and bearings to turn the tables which all has to change now.:mad:

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Originally Posted by Dogznova

Black lights are the only incandescent light bulbs that are as close to the 730nm (only) spectrum you can get.

Incandescent black lights are actually a form of Standard Outdoor Darkness (SOD). So yes they can be used as a flowering night light.. BUT inc black lights (only) during your 12/12 flowering darkness will cause unwanted stretch for sure. After the stretch phase is over however then black lights (only) can be used for some SPEED, but not very efficiently IMO...Inc black lights have a time factor of aprox .9 and are very fast as far as spectrums go because they give off mostly 730nm.

IMO you need to be careful about adding speed to your normal 12/12 flowering (dark time)..To much speed will cause your lighting schedule to go from a 12/12 to a 10/14 type of flowering in a heartbeat especially if your using HID. So a little goes a long way..It's ok to do it at the end of a normal 12/12 type of flower, maybe for the last two or three weeks. But again it's not the most efficient way of adding speed to the flowering time IMO unless your doing a 24/12 type of flowering. For every hour of black lights (only) used during your normal flowering (dark time) you will get aprox 1.1 hours worth of SID darkness. So using black lights for let's say 5 hours will give you aprox 5.5 hours of SID. And using them for 12 hours will give you aprox 13.3 hours of SID darkness. So ya they work in a normal 12/12 flower if you know what your doing with them... Hope that helps ya...

The funny thing about green inc's is.. They will make your girls come out of flowering unless you use a filter with them. The only spectrums that work for the dark phase of a flowering cycle is 530nm and above. If I'm not mistaken green inc's fall below this range. So they can be used but I think you will need to use a filter with them.. Again not worth it..

Is that the answer you were looking for or no..:thumbsup:

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yes , thats the info.....and than some...Thank You

Sal and Dogs. What kind of Light intensity levels are you running? PAD manual has everything listed in watts per sqmeter based on canopy depth. For my little 14-18" plants I'd assume around 200w per sqmeter going by the manual. Is this based on LED lumens per watt? What about HPS and halogens? Is there another way to calculate this: Chlorophyll Absorbance Spectra CAS, Action Spectra for Photosynthesis ASP, Quantum Yield Curve, PPF, PPFD? Just trying to find the best way to setup my LED wannabe Fluoro tubes. I find the PAD manual a little vague in this area. Total combined input watts versus actual light intensity varies in a huge way even between different LED's. I assume Rauber must use a meter to actually calculate this but doesn't specify the scale that he uses. I know, I know experimentation but like most humans I'm inherently lazy and hate to repeat work that has already been done, especially by someone smarter than myself.:upsidedow

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Originally Posted by scott9116

Sal and Dogs. What kind of Light intensity levels are you running? PAD manual has everything listed in watts per sqmeter based on canopy depth. For my little 14-18" plants I'd assume around 200w per sqmeter going by the manual. Is this based on LED lumens per watt? What about HPS and halogens? Is there another way to calculate this: Chlorophyll Absorbance Spectra CAS, Action Spectra for Photosynthesis ASP, Quantum Yield Curve, PPF, PPFD? Just trying to find the best way to setup my LED wannabe Fluoro tubes. I find the PAD manual a little vague in this area. Total combined input watts versus actual light intensity varies in a huge way even between different LED's. I assume Rauber must use a meter to actually calculate this but doesn't specify the scale that he uses. I know, I know experimentation but like most humans I'm inherently lazy and hate to repeat work that has already been done, especially by someone smarter than myself.:upsidedow

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It's vague because the manual tries to eliminate any source of need for calculation, but it's basically for floro's or better output efficiencies based one INPUT WATTAGE at the ballast, or better efficiency systems (HID/LED).

Remember though, that it's a minimum wattage for General Plant Growth.

For a Photophyle, Nitrophyle and highly photodynamic plant like ours, I use 4 times the minimum as general target.

Hope this helps, but yes their is an attempt to evergeneralize on this one, and any feedback suck as yours is used to gauge the demand for further needed detail, so thank you.

Take care, Sal.

Thanks, Sal. I tend to go a bit overboard when it comes to light myself. Whenever someone asks "Should I add _____?" I always think the more the merrier.

Any thoughts on red or blue tinted reflectors? A lot of lights CFLs and tubes even my highdollar colored tubes have a green spike in their output. My understanding is that if the said spike is too low in the spectrum could keep PAD from working. A red or blue (depending on the application) anodized or tinted reflector could eat up half of the green spike of the offending bulb and still reflect most of the red or blue light that you want to keep.

Been thinking about this for HID lights. Hence, the title of the thread. During daytime lighting it shouldn't matter any. It could still apply to say, vegging under HPS with a blue reflector.

I'm also considering coating reflectors and maybe walls with titanium dioxide for odor control. It's the stuff they use on "Odor Eating" CFL's. $5 a pound for this stuff from make-up/soap suppliers on the net. It's apparently safe enough to use in hippie soap and that powdered mineral make up.

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Originally Posted by scott9116

Any thoughts on red or blue tinted reflectors? A lot of lights CFLs and tubes even my highdollar colored tubes have a green spike in their output. My understanding is that if the said spike is too low in the spectrum could keep PAD from working. A red or blue (depending on the application) anodized or tinted reflector could eat up half of the green spike of the offending bulb and still reflect most of the red or blue light that you want to keep.

Been thinking about this for HID lights. Hence, the title of the thread. During daytime lighting it shouldn't matter any. It could still apply to say, vegging under HPS with a blue reflector.

I'm also considering coating reflectors and maybe walls with titanium dioxide for odor control. It's the stuff they use on "Odor Eating" CFL's. $5 a pound for this stuff from make-up/soap suppliers on the net. It's apparently safe enough to use in hippie soap and that powdered mineral make up.

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I think the TiO2 thing has had bad reviews, but I haven't tried it so I can't really say.

Dichroic filters seems the best but way too pricey for average use.

The Blue Green / Green Blue sensitivity of the Blue "DAY" receptor seems sensitive up from 500nm to about 520nm and we tried all last year to test out higher transmission Yellow rather than lower transmission Red filters and had some real headachs that turned out to be more ballast related than we anticipate (???!!!...), live and learn. So now we're just doing Red filters for standardized units that work.

The best results come from pairing reflector/filter reflection/transmission curves to the light source for maximized reflection/transmission.

You're on the right page and those are excellent ideas on reflectors, but we're sticking with a straight filter set up right now for standardization (the 282 lamp).

Gotta run...

Take care, Sal.

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Originally Posted by salmayo

The Blue Green / Green Blue sensitivity of the Blue "DAY" receptor seems sensitive up from 500nm to about 520nm and we tried all last year to test out higher transmission Yellow rather than lower transmission Red filters and had some real headachs that turned out to be more ballast related than we anticipate (???!!!...), live and learn. So now we're just doing Red filters for standardized units that work.

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I recently read about much different ballasts can affect the actual color output of bulbs. The film industry and aquarium geeks have had issue with this. I'm hoping that my cheap Walmart and Sunpark ballasts don't change the specs of the tubes I'm getting too much. I really don't have the cash to lay out on the killer DMX color controllers that studios use.

The difference we see in the fluorescent radio frequency ballasts, is that they product more of a High Pressure Mercury discharge spectrum in addition to the usual Low Pressure Mercury discharge spectrum. This is especially true for DC output ballasts such as IS (Insta-Start) ballast, as compared to the usual cheapper RS (Rapid Start) magnetic ballasts.

I'm using IS ballasts on all my fluorescents (T12, T10, T8 and T5HO ), but I also use outter Red Safety filters to eliminate stray 520nm and lower wavelengths (they don't cut out much more than the original Yellow Safety filters we hoped would work and are espectially good when combined with Red and/or Far Red phosphors to begin with).

Take care, Sal.

Sal, what transmission rates do the filters your using have? I'm assuming Rosco brand? Them things can really eat up some light! I'm still debating the efficacy between filters and colored reflectors in my head.

I'm almost to the point of building the fixtures for the 5' tubes. Been a hard road getting everything else going. Soon, I'll have pics of the "Mar's Lander" I'm tinkering with.

Judging from Pf/Pfr response graphs. A ton response in near UV 300-400nm range is noted. Would flouro blacklights timed opposite from 730nm lighting increase the switch between Pr/Pfr? I wonder. Seems to me that in a HPS system that has almost nothing in that range could use those in between far red cycles. Certainly 420-460nm blue grows plants better but I cant help but to think that 300-400nm might increase potency and flavor without getting too deep into actual UV-B.

Oh, is there a time factor for fluorescent blacklights?

Yes, I use lots of Rosco brand filters. We spent most of a year on the 015 Yellowish Filter as a possible max transmission option to the standard Red filters we use right now. Standard transmission data is available from Rosco on all their filters. I've used transmissions as high as 90 to 95 percent affective transmission (Emitter/Filter matching), but the Dichroics are the better, if you want the end all in performance. (Ultimately transmission is a product of the spectrum to be filterred and the transmission of the filter band by band.)

The Dichroic filters are the best, but very pricy for general purpose applications. The nice thing about the dichroics is their durability, and precise cutoff bands, plus their reflected light can be used in veggging areas etc.

Krylon makes a usable "Stain Glass" color spray that has the same temperature characteristics as the outter color coating on a standard 25 Watt Party lamp.

"Judging from Pf/Pfr response graphs. A ton response in near UV 300-400nm range is noted. Would flouro blacklights timed opposite from 730nm lighting increase the switch between Pr/Pfr? I wonder. Seems to me that in a HPS system that has almost nothing in that range could use those in between far red cycles. Certainly 420-460nm blue grows plants better but I cant help but to think that 300-400nm might increase potency and flavor without getting too deep into actual UV-B."

"Oh, is there a time factor for fluorescent blacklights?" - We don't have that data for two reasons: (1) Fluorescent Blacklights don't have meaningful output in the desired visible and Far Red ranges, and (2) they trigger as a Blue "Day" spectrum recognized by the plants as a Blue photoperiodic signal, so they aren't usable for PAD timing.

We find a that Far Red is the desired 3rd spectrum after Red and (Far Blue) Blue, with UV being more of an area of contradictory data.

We have considerred Colorred Water Cooling as a hybrid way of dealing with spectrum filtration and cooling issues, but are worried about safety issues of the water cooling option. We put quite a few powerful methods on the back burner for safety concerns. (A highly flexible and versatile systems though.)

Take care, Sal.

The colored water idea is brilliant, Sal. I was thinking about water cooling myself, but the condensation is more my fear than leaks. I have some water cooled heatsinks I made a few years ago for bridge rectifiers in a welding machine. I might save those for if or when I get into some LEDs. Very hot and humid in my area and I've had heat issues in the past. I have a great cooling and air flow system now but at the cost of kwHrs.

"Oh, is there a time factor for fluorescent blacklights?" - We don't have that data for two reasons: (1) Fluorescent Blacklights don't have meaningful output in the desired visible and Far Red ranges, and (2) they trigger as a Blue "Day" spectrum recognized by the plants as a Blue photoperiodic signal, so they aren't usable for PAD timing.


Sal, that's what I was thinking though. Additional 300nm-400nm during the day cycle. Quicker conversion from Pfr back to Pr state. Or, would it just increase that amount of time and power needed in to get back to Pfr state?

I cant find the article now but I recently read about flouro blacklights killing pathogens similar to UV but takes longer. 45 minutes or so to kill most influenza if I recall correctly.
:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by scott9116

Sal, that's what I was thinking though. Additional 300nm-400nm during the day cycle. Quicker conversion from Pfr back to Pr state. Or, would it just increase that amount of time and power needed in to get back to Pfr state?

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Phytochrome is always in constant flux between it two Pr and Pfr states, and reaches states of photoequalibrium, even in the dark it cycles between the two states reaching an equalibrium due to the two rates of conversion between the two states.


So it's not really a question of quicker, it's more an issue of WHAT state of equalibrium the combined wavelengths produce and a period of time needed to reach an equalibrium state.

Hope that's not to Quantuum Theory for ya, but it boils down to tracking large numbers of phytochrome molecules and the numbers of the populations of Pr and Pfr acting within the cells.

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I've considerred the condensation issue and concluded it would be an air handling issue and possibly adding a bit of adjustment to a liquid cooling systems flow, in order to keep the component temps above the condensation point, while still maintaining enough cooling capacity.

Take care, Sal.