Saggy Leaves

DJ - Just looking at the big picture of what you are doing, you start having problems when you start adjusting your nutes and changing your reservoir more frequently. Might I suggest that you go buy a gallon of CNS17 Bloom and use that and only that for a week or two and see what happens. CNS17 is a STAND ALONE nute. It comes in Grow and Bloom. So far, I have only used it on vegging plants, but I am really impressed with how well it is working. I've got a scrog going that I will flip tomorrow and I plan to use CNS17 all the way through flower. (I may supplement with PK13/14 for weeks 5/6 (6/7?), but that's it.)

If you think about this logically, you either have a problem with your bloom nutes, a problem with the way you are mixing the bloom nutes, some kind of toxic contamination in your system, or a mean spirited poltergeist. There aren't a whole lot of other variables.

It seems like you get a problem then adjust things to try to correct and then your problems just seem to multiply and diversify. If you use the CNS17, you don't need to add anything. It has all the micros and macros and basics all in one. I really don't know for sure if CNS17 is a panacea that will grow huge buds all on its own, however, at this point, it would seem more important to first get a trouble-free grow and then worry about maximizing bud size.

PC :smokin:

Pro Bloom is also a stand alone nute....the problem isn't in his not having the nutes available....its something to do with the plants inability to uptake them correctly after a certain stage. The fact that all the plants are showing DIFFERENT problems tells me there is a basic answer somewhere in the uptake of the nutrients and all the plants are reacting differently to it.

Ph is my first thought.....but he checks and double checks it. So the issue has to be in the roots and something to do with basic uptake.....roots change as they get older....they grow. I'm not a soil grower but if Stinky EVER COMES BACK I'd ask her if those plants look rootbound.

They go in a certain order from the corners in. There's a REASON for that. i'm dying to see the system up close and personal which will never happen. But figure this.....that 17 liter container those four plants are in equal about 1 gallon each for their roots. Sound like enough room to you for plants that size? i'm REALLY starting to wonder......

I have thought about the roots as well. They are in 4" net pots, but it seems like eventually they just stop growing. Most of my roots are huge solid masses of thick white roots while others are longer and stringy but still a very dense mass. The roots from each plant don't touch because like I said, it seems like they stop growing after a point. For example, I decided to switch my best plant into the middle spot since it was in a corner, but the roots were so big that they plugged my drain so I had to switch back to the other one that the roots were sticking down maybe a half inch below the net pot. Also, the roots don't appear to be trying to grow up the side of the bin or constricted in any way that I can tell, but I will take a picture of the root zone when the lights come on in a half hour and we can further the brainstorm.

As for switching nutes, I will probably just wait until next grow. Overall, I have 4 pretty nice looking plants (in my opinion), two that aren't *too* terrible, and then two that are pretty much shot, so I think I'm just going to ride out the last two weeks before flush with the nutes I have and just keep them solely on the plain bloom nute. I was actually going to look into changing nutes anyways because of this problem, so I'll have to see if my store carries that special CNS17 stuff. If they DON'T have it, what is another one I should look into?

Botanicare is the only stuff I've ever used so can't say if anything else is good or bad. Hopefully others will chime in with some thoughts.

How much empty space would you say you have left with all the roots in there? I wonder about enough oxygen for the roots. Honestly Deja.....I just dont' know so I'm throwing stuff out.

It also would seem to me that if your roots stop growing....wouldn't your plant stop growing as well?

These pictures look worse than they do in real life, but here they are. The tips are slimy because the bins don't drain 100% and there is about a little less than 1/4" of water in there.

DJ Check out the roots in the photo below. (That photo is from RacerX's grow log here.) Now look at your roots. Your roots just don't look as healthy or as big as they should be. The tips of your roots all appear to be rotted off. I would opine that they just don't like living in the ooze in the bottom of your tray. Why don't you get a deeper tray, purposely leave a few inches of solution in the bottom and put airstones in the solution. Then your roots would have a real nice environment to live in.

As far as one part nutes go - CNS17 is the only one I've researched and the only one I've tried. Other companies make stand-alone nutes, but, when you read how people are using them, it seems they are always adding calmag or some other darn thing. With CNS17, you don't need anything else; it has the Ca and Mg and all those other little goodies already in it.

PC :smokin:

Here's my Master Kush roots.....that plant was about 3 feet tall.

I agree wholeheartedly with PC's PONTIFICATION that the roots are rotting and I'm guessing that is what's causing your problems.

Do you have a photo of the roots of the plants in the corner?

It appears y'all may have found the root of the problem. :lol5:

PC :smokin:

Well here's what I don't get Pc....my roots sit in water...but mine IS oxygenated and changed frequently.

Is that nute solution that has built UP and perhaps burned the roots? And I'd wonder what the ph of that last 1/4 inch of water is....

I've checked the pH and PPM of the bin water and it reads the same as the rest of the res. I am going to see what I can do about getting a deeper bin and putting some air stones in there before I start my next flowering cycle. Thanks for all the help guys and gals!

Wouldnt leaving some soultion in the bins with an air stone essentially be DWC? Not that it matters just curious. Also, I was thinking that it would be a bitch to get the solution out of the bins with the plants in them come res change/final flush time.

So all that said, do you think it would be better to design the bins to drain out completely or to leave solution in there with an airstone? Either one would require a complete redesign so I am open to all options.

I like the DWC thing.....there's really no overwatering or anything. The only trick would be making sure you can empty that somehow as well; not that you'll be emptying it often but it will need to be cleaned every once in awhile.

The thing is....in my photo of my roots....the entire last two feet of them sit in water so if your ppm and ph are the same I'm wondering why your roots are rotting off on the ends. Makes me wonder about oxygenation to your root area.....if the containers are pretty airtight then I wonder if it is a matter of putting an airstone in your containers and try and get some fresh air circulating in them. Dont know if it would make a difference but is it doable? If just doesn't make sense to me that sitting in the water would rot your roots......mine sit in water all the time.....

Yeah, changing out the bins I my biggest concern. It is a bitch right now to take the lids with the plants and put them somewhere while I clean the bins. I would have to incorporate some kind of drain with a plug to make that work.

As far as the oxygen, the bins aren't even close to airtight and I don't think an airstone would stay submerged in there. I do have an airstone in the res itself and I use H2O2 every other day so oxygen shouldnt be a problem. My roots did the same thing last time where they grow to a certain point and then stop growing so I didn't think it was that big of a deal but that just shows what I know.

Actually I remember you mentioning it several times and I didn't think too much about it (or your PONTIFICATION about the plants in the corners) so that shows what I know. I was very convinced it was your nutes somehow but couldn't figure out how.

Are you using a zyme product at this point? Something that the roots are sitting seems to be burning or rotting them.....and I'm honestly not sure why.

I'd just stick an airpump line down into your containers....not necessarily in your water. I have a feeling there is less 02 flow in there than should be. It's fine that there is H202 in the solution but the roots still need to breathe even when no solution is present.....extra air pumped in would help I think but it's just a guess. (Ps...H202 level is not too strong is it?????)

I am only using 2 tbsp of H202 every other day in a 25 gal res. As far as pumping air in there, there is oneholeopen so plenty of o2 should be getting in there by itself. I was going to get a new pump and airstone tonight because my old airstone is over 50% clogged and I wanted to run more than one so I will try it and see what happens.

Well pooh.....just when I think I have it figured out. That certainly doesn't sound like too much H202 and with a big open hole sounds like plenty of 02 as well. Back to the drawing boards......:confused:

I'm dying to figure out how the corners fit in here.....

Well I just picked up two small 1" air stones for the bins and a big "bubble wand" for the main res. Hopefully that will get some more oxygen flowing in there and help my cause a little. Only 18 days to go (25 for the mother) until the 8 week mark so hopefully they all will survive.

Keep us updated....:)

Well, the small air stones are just barely submerged laying on their sides in the little dip around the bottom of the bin. They are putting out quite the blast of bubbles, but none of the bubbles seem to be going through the water. Does that matter or is oxygen being supplied to the entire area of water on a molecular level that I can't see?

I mistakenly got this bubble curtain thing that won't stick to the sides or bottom of my res. I think I am going to try to wedge it under the pump though. It is definitely putting out more bubbles than the 10" airstone ever did though.

Also, the middle plant on the left bin is starting to turn yellow, which disproves my corner theory because the right corners are ones that look good except for the nitrogen toxicity in the front one.

Well mine dissapated when you said you had a large open hole to let air in...that seems to be plenty to me....

like I say.....roots sit in alot more water than yours and I've never seen mine do that. Are you using a zyme product?

I was using hygrozyme up until the last res change 3 days ago.

Yeah I thought I remember you mentioning it.

Hmmmmmm

I was also thinking it was weird that some of the roots just stopped growing. They didn't get long enough to reach the water sitting in the bin and they still just stopped growing, and yet the plant is still doing pretty well, albeit somewhat short. Also, none of the roots have rotted off that I can tell. There are pieces of roots from my botched transplat that ended up blocking my drain, but no rotted roots at all that I have seen, and I change the res every week. In the first pic, the back right one is an example of the short roots that didn't make it to the sludge as is the middle on on the right side.

I was thinking that myself....it just shouldn' hurt the roots to sit normal nute solution with a normal ph so I'm wondering about other reasons at this point.

I have no doubt that those roots are your problem with the big question being.....why did they get that way? Whats the larger container they are in made of?

Plastic I assume. They are just Rubbermaid totes like you can get at Wal Mart, Target, etc.

We need someone like Rhizome or Stinky to look at them and tell us the problem. Rubbermaid from walmart hardly sounds toxic or root-eating. :wtf:

Why the f*ck do the roots stop growing and start to disappear?.you said pieces of roots in your water......are they breaking off or? i'm not at all familiar with how those 4 inch pots work. I'm wondering if the roots are somehow being choked off in those smaller pots.....reminds me of my Master Kush plant that became rootbound. (see photo) It also looks like your medium is just buried amongst the masses of crammed roots. You may want to think about a different medium and/or larger pots.

I'm for you grabbing another 25 gal container like your rez, take those and put together a couple of DWC setups with a few airstones or something. Less complicated and hopefully more workable. You'd need to be able to drain it or empty it fairly easily....Get a pump in there to circulate or something.

Yeah the roots in the water are just some of the outside roots that got sheared off when I put the pots back in the hole because they were too massive to fit in there.

The thing is, the guy that I got the net pots and some of my equipment from had used the exact same setup as I am for 3 years in Arizona and grew many successful crops. He even drew me up the plans for my E&F system. The only thing different from my setup and his is nutrients. He used the same nutrients through the entire grow and no supplements.

Shoot I'm up for anything at this point....but I have to say Ive been using the Botanicare for a couple years and never had root issues like those on your plants where the roots just break or rot off......mostly stuff i've wrestled with has been drainage issues and hydroton has seriously just been a hellhole for me. Maybe it's my imagination but it just seems to add to my problems. I stopped using it and went with another medium and the plants I'm growing now are great....no defs, no problems; they look wonderful. The only difference I can find is the fact that I';m not using hydroton but even in my last few grows with only a TOUCH of hydroton (about 1/5 total volume was leftover hydroton....very LITTLE amount) I was still fighing defs and issues. All seem to have gone completely with a different medium. I don't really understand it and can't explain it especially since others grow great plants with hydroton....:confused:

Well shit what did you switch to? ithe middle plant is going downhill, turning yellow from the bottom up just like the others, so I figure I have about 3 days until all the leaves have fallen off, so with that, I'm sitting at 40% which sucks.

I have noticed my hydroton comes out looking white, but idk if that is normal or not because I'm a n00bz. I really don't know what else to try, but I am having no luck with this.

Meanwhile, my clones are big, rich, green, thriving monsters! I need to fix the problems on the flowering side so my pre 4/20 harvest will be up to par, but I just don't understand what the problem could be!!!

Well i switched to higromite rocks.....but they have their own problems. And seriously, i turned around and handed the half left bag to a friend who had never grown hydro before....and proceeded to have no problems with it at all.

I like the higromite rocks (you can see them in the root photo) but they weigh the same as regular rocks so they're very heavy.....and for some reason algae REALLY loves to grow on it. I never had any algae grow on the hydroton.

I'm having much better luck with them but I seriously wonder about your choked off looking roots. Roots really just "don't stop growing" that I can think of....they just keep getting more and more. Something is happening to yours that is stopping that. What's your water temp? Could they be overwatered in some way?

Deja are you using the 35% H202 at 2 teaspoons for 25gal every other day? Just want to get that part straight.

Yep, 2 tbsp of 35% every other day. I really don't think overwatering is the issue because I only water 5 times for 15 minutes at a time. It looks nutrient related to me, but what do I know.

As for the roots, I really don't know why they would grow down out of the net pots and then stop. I would think that if they were grown well down past the net pot that they wouldn't be choked, but again, what do I know. The res temps stay between 55 and 65.

I will probably just stick with hydroton I guess since I have 3/4 a bag left and look into switching down to road or something if problems continue. I also want to try the nutes PC was mentioning for my next flower cycle and hopefully half of them won't die!

http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/...ml#post1793519

Howdy Deja,

Check the last page of this guys log and his root porn photo. This is honestly what I would expect your roots to look like at the stage you are at. Obviously this did not happen with your roots and the key is finding out why.

55-65 is pretty cold.....the ideal water temp is 70 for hydro. Mine never get lower than 64.....is that a pretty steady temp for your water?

Buy yourself an aquarium water heater and stick it in your res.....set it for 70. Shoudn't cost very much. I'm going to study the effects of cold temps on roots and see if I can find any info on it.

I actually was using an aquarium heater set at 69 until I read in Jorge Cervantes' Medical Grow Bible that the ideal temp for hydroponic nute solution is 50 degrees because it holds the most oxygen and allows the roots to take up more nutrients more efficiently. I don't mean to second guess you but Cervantes' book is always regarded as the be-all and end-all of marijuana grow books so I have been going by that.

Heh- then Jorge f*cked up. Or the editors/proofreaders.

Way too cold.

Shoot for 70F.

Only things that I know of that get best growth rate/ feed conversion @ 50F are trout and toothfish.

OK, thanks rhizome. I guess I paid $25 for some false information. I wonder how much more bad advice I have read out of there then... I have the heater in there still, just not plugged in. Its actually being used as an anchor for my "bubble curtain" that won't suction to the bottom of my res. :thumbsup: Need to pick up a new stone tomorrow.

Have you looked at any of the pictures I have posted? If so, any idea what my problem is? Or is it just cold temperature related?

Rhizome!! Always good to see you. :) Would temps that low destroy those roots like that? I've just never seen such a thing.....

You know I love both Jorge's book and Greg Greens book but I honestly don't use either one of those as a hydro guide. I have a feeling both were written slightly before hydro took off so madly but I'm not positive. I AM sure that I don't use their hydro information as a rule. Most of it is too vague anyway. BUT I do find both those books VERY useful in general so I refer to them constantly for other information.

Yeah, it is the most recent edition and it said the hydroponics section had been expanded along with a few other sections. Sorry for second guessing you Weedhound. Hopefully rhizome can come back and give some more insight. I have a feeling that it has something to do with the water sitting in the bottom of my bins, but if the water is oxygenated I wouldn't think it would be too bad. Sorta like a shallow DWC?

In other news, I started giving my vegging plants a dark period like 3 weeks ago and they are huge and their roots are insane!:thumbsup: The roots are pretty much just a huge mass in the bottom of the bin. Is it bad if they get tangled up?

I find growing a plant in veg to be stress free, but I really really really want to finally get the flowering part right, so hopefully we can get some more input here.

Omg....please don't be sorry....I'm not even sure what you mean about second guessing. I'm REALLY hoping that's the answer to your issue but it seems odd that they would do so WELL in veg....then so crappy in flower if the temps are always low like that.

You say have some clones going and doing very well deja. What are those in and how are the roots looking on them as opposed to your flowering stuff? I don't think it matters if they get tanged up as long as they don't get rootbound or mixed together and then you try to seperate them or something.

They are in the same exact setup as the flowering side, only the bins drain completely. The roots are looking great since giving them a dark period; all of them are growing very long and thick and spreading out throughout the bin. In the past, they have usually been somewhat short, and didn't spread out as far as these have. I attribute that to the dark period. BUT, if I put them into flower like that in the current setup I have, wouldn't it be worse because there's so much root mass hanging out in the water?