Does the past is real?

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

Thank you for putting that so succinctly. That is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier when I got in so much trouble with the religious misunderstanding. By framing the theory in such a way that everything is consistent with everything we observe today and everything we can project into the past, it is impossible to DISPROVE the theory that the past was somehow manufactured.

But to me, the fact that a theory cannot be disproved, does not necessarily make in plausible. The problem with these kinds of theories is that they bring in an element that is not necessary. They make things more complicated than they need to be. If you say the universe came into being, proceeded according to physical laws that have remained unchanged over time, life eveloved, I was born, and my life is pretty much like I remember it, that is the most simple explanation. If you say that it only seems like that is what happened, all the evidence is consistent with that model, but actually the universe was created 5 minutes ago and all your memories were implanted, then you have brought in the element of whatever force did the creating and implanting. The second model is so much more complicated than the first, that is seems implausible, even if it cannot be disproven.

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Exactly.

"The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

Just because we cant disprove something doesnt mean it is true, but on the same note, just becuase we cant prove something doesnt mean its not true.

5 min theory, Thursdayism, Dreamer theory, all these things... they are possibilities. But the problem with them is we will never be able to prove them to be true. It doesnt mean they arent true, and arent real possibilities, but in most situations they are not brought up because of their very nature, and the fact that they usually bring a discussion to a halt. You cant really argue these kinds of ideas and theories, they are built almost with that very principle in mind.

As far as them being implausable, Im not sure I agree with that so much. What makes them that way, besides peoples misconceptions and ignorance? The very idea of them is that they are incredibly plausible, because they cant be proven and within them they contain everything needed to work. But we cant ever really call them fact, because there is no way to prove it. But idk if Id say it makes them implausable persay. I may have misunderstood what you were saying though... if thats the case, my apologies.

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Originally Posted by imitator

Its a balancing act, we need to be questioning everything around us, but we also need to be able to still be functional in whatever reality we may be in.

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That is another very good point. I find these kinds of discussions very interesting as a philosophical exercise. But as a practical matter, you pretty much have to live your life as if everything you experience is real! Don't tell the IRS, "Taxes, like all reality, are an illusion." Otherwise you will soon experience the "illusion" of prison.

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

That is another very good point. I find these kinds of discussions very interesting as a philosophical exercise. But as a practical matter, you pretty much have to live your life as if everything you experience is real! Don't tell the IRS, "Taxes, like all reality, are an illusion." Otherwise you will soon experience the "illusion" of prison.

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The problem is, over time, people took the balancing act needed as a sign that proper questioning and debate was a problem, and discarded it.

The average person doesnt take much time to really question much in their life, at least here in the states. What was a proper balancing act of questioning things while still being functional in "this" reality, has turned into no questions and accepting this reality and going about life.

Its really hard, in most anything, but especially with this situation, to find people who are "moderate" in their actions, who are able ot balance the two, instead of going to the extreme on one side or another.

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Originally Posted by imitator

As far as them being implausable, Im not sure I agree with that so much. What makes them that way, besides peoples misconceptions and ignorance? The very idea of them is that they are incredibly plausible, because they cant be proven and within them they contain everything needed to work. But we cant ever really call them fact, because there is no way to prove it. But idk if Id say it makes them implausable persay. I may have misunderstood what you were saying though... if thats the case, my apologies.

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I don't think you misunderstood me, but I don't mean to say "implausible" as a way to diminish the discussion of these kinds of ideas.

I meant I find these kinds of theories unlikeley to be true because they bring in an element that is not necessary to explain the phenomenon. But that is exaclty why they are interesting! My gut feeling is that the simplest theory is usually correct, but it is an interesting philosophical exercise to think about an alternative explanation that is constructed in such a way that it cannot be disproved, but intruduces an unexpected element.

That is why movies like Blade Runner and the Matrix are so interesting. They question the very nature of our reality, but are constructed in such a way that you cannot fault their logic.

Not to get off topic, but can I have a bite of that delicious-looking baby sandwich?

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Originally Posted by TheGreatBenzino

Kk while reading your post! i was impressed, then it happened....

let me explain it to you how i thought (in my head) hmmm this kid has some real facts to prove his side of the arguement..WAIT :wtf: WHAT THE FUCK!

after i read that you believe no one is this dumb... i lost all respect for your answer... why is it that he questions what you call reality, as conspicuous. He has a right to question what he thinks is questionable. NOW you have a right to debate his answer, but soon as you cut him down by sayig thinking that is "dumb" you lose all your credibility.

For you AMAZING question, i dont have an answer for you. I believe the past is real but how it got there i have no fucking clue. now i am a christian and believe in god, but the fact that he woke up one day said BOOM water boom trees, BOOM mountains, BOOM homosapiens (not what they were called when they first began on earth) who have such complex functions that millions of years down the road we still wouldnt even understand most. seriously think of the brain.. FUCK are you kidding me SOO CRAZY. i just can comprehend what happend years before us to invent electricity, space travel AMAZING!!!

so next time you give a GREAT answer (much props), just dont get negative..

:bigsmoke: -STAY LIT, QUESTION EVERYTHING!

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hey some one else from washington, interesting post.

simple and to the point, I Think There for I am..............lol

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

I don't think you misunderstood me, but I don't mean to say "implausible" as a way to diminish the discussion of these kinds of ideas.

I meant I find these kinds of theories unlikeley to be true because they bring in an element that is not necessary to explain the phenomenon. But that is exaclty why they are interesting! My gut feeling is that the simplest theory is usually correct, but it is an interesting philosophical exercise to think about an alternative explanation that is constructed in such a way that it cannot be disproved, but intruduces an unexpected element.

That is why movies like Blade Runner and the Matrix are so interesting. They question the very nature of our reality, but are constructed in such a way that you cannot fault their logic.

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Ah ok, I understand what you were saying a bit better now.

Personally I feel that both theories you mentioned before though both have the same amount of elements to explain everything. One is saying that the world/universe/life was created a long time ago, and over time all these things happened, and thats where we are right now. The other is saying, 5 minutes ago this was all created, and all these things that you think have happened were given to you at the time of creation to give the illusion of a past.

I really do enjoy philosophical debate on these subjects, because there is no definite right or wrong, just a universe full of possibilities. No one is able to take a "moral" highground so to speak in regards to the subject, as the only thing that matters is how well you can explain what you are talking about. It puts everyone on even ground, if they are willing to truely take part in the conversation...

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Originally Posted by jdmarcus59

simple and to the point, I Think There for I am..............lol

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But is that true?

Descartes was very flawed in his logic and methodology when he came up with "Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum".

He used too many assumptions, and chose to not even consider some aspects simply because they would have been difficult to address.

Dreamer theory is a lovely example of this. If we are a part of some great beings dream, then everything we think is actually just part of the dreamers dream, and we didnt think it, he did. Therefore, your thoughts do not prove your existance, in that situation.

Still, the excercises that he used to reach that conclusion were good excercises for everyone to do at least once in their life. The entire excercise was remarkable, but his conclusion, and the ideas he used and discarded in order to reach such a conclusion were very flawed imo.

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

Not to get off topic, but can I have a bite of that delicious-looking baby sandwich?

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That would be my sandwich sir, although I can give you the recipe for making your own. :p

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If the past no longer exists, what is it that makes it no longer exist, if not time?

Actually I maintain the opposite view, that the past exists forever. If the universe is in fact infinite, then the past travels throughout the universe, just as when we look into very distant galaxies, we actually see what these galaxies were like millions and even billions of years ago because of how long it takes light to travel.

So the past exists forever, it just depends on your vantage point.

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Honestly, that makes sense BUT what we see in these crazy ass telescopes when looking into galaxies like these is actually only light that reflects back taking light years to travel and sends us the resulting image... it's not actually the past,
however it is a record of the past.

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Originally Posted by tha_green_ghost

Honestly, that makes sense BUT what we see in these crazy ass telescopes when looking into galaxies like these is actually only light that reflects back taking light years to travel and sends us the resulting image... it's not actually the past,
however it is a record of the past.

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Tomato, Tomahto :) Basically the same thing, I say.

It's all in the vantage point. To us, if we observe something that explodes a light year away, it's new news, but if you're at the point of the explosion, it happened a year ago.

Extrapolating on your view, we could say that we've never observed anything in the present, only records of the past, as light and sound always take some time to travel to our senses, regardless of how small.

not that that matters, or that there's anything wrong with that, it's all on how you want to view the world.

Yeah, I agree. It's all about how you look at things. There are so many aspects to view this subject from. I'm glad we can discuss this respectfully.

After all, we are all human and curious about this world/universe. -PEACE

i love how most people try to find and believe in anything but the truth they go out of there way to try and prove it wrong ....

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i love how most people try to find and believe in anything but the truth they go out of there way to try and prove it wrong ....

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whatever yo'

and btw what's "does the past is right " mean??

It means he was REALLY HIGH:rasta: when he wrote this RFLMAO:D

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Originally Posted by palerider7777

i love how most people try to find and believe in anything but the truth they go out of there way to try and prove it wrong ....

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If there was a universal, known truth, people wouldnt be spending their time asking what the truth was.

I am happy that you have found your truth, I truely am, but I think its very petty of you to belittle those who havent found their truth, and very ignorant of you to assume that only your truth is the correct one and the rest of us are wrong.

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Originally Posted by palerider7777

u don't really warrent a response, u always have some dumb shit to say to try to twist my words to mean something they don't. and there is only 1 truth no matter how u dance around it. what i said is most people are always on the fence and seem to go out of there way to prove something wrong. and most don't even know anything about what they trying to disprove. but it don't matter as the always seem to call out for help when they need it, or blame the 1 they "don't believe in" and curse him because there life is'nt working out thats what im saying. and no im not gonna get in to a pissing contest as it takes to long to reel this beast out so there u go.

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A pissing contest? I could have sworn it was a thread discussing things, must have missed that memo.

You state that there is one truth, only one, no matter what. Thats a fine statement, but one that can not be backed up with actual evidence.

Is there something wrong with spending your time trying to prove what you see around you wrong? Wouldnt you end up reaching the same "conclusion" as the one you have reached, assuming your beliefs are correct? If what they are trying to prove wrong is a truth, then its impossible to prove it wrong using any kind of sound logic, and the more time that a person spent trying to prove it wrong, the more they would realize that it wasnt wrong, no?

Is everyone, or even a majority, all blaming the same person/place/thing/item?

I am trying hard to avoid discussing any of your personal beliefs, as they have been discussed before, and its more then likely pointless to try to rehash that discussion. But is it safe to assume that your comments about ignoring the "one truth" and "blaming the 1 they dont believe in" are references to your beliefs and faith?

It is fine to use your beliefs as the basis for your point/arguement, its nigh impossible to not do so in some manner when having a discussion. Even stating that you believe something to be the truth in this world... but you are attacking and insulting others if you state that only your truth is the true one, and nothing else can exist. Thats what I am saying, and you may not have intended to come off like that, but I dont think I was the only one to read that from what you said.

Now as for your reasons for not wanting to dicuss this with me, personally I find them nothing but a bunch of bullhonkey, but to each their own. Id hope you would be able to handle having a discussion with someone who might not agree with what you believe. Id hope you would be able to have a discussion with someone without constantly harping on past subjects discussed, or past things said.

If thats not the case, then I apologize for wasting your time, and I will put you on ignore so that I dont accidently respond to anything else you post, as I dont really pay attention to who is saying what when I reply.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Actually I maintain the opposite view, that the past exists forever. If the universe is in fact infinite, then the past travels throughout the universe, just as when we look into very distant galaxies, we actually see what these galaxies were like millions and even billions of years ago because of how long it takes light to travel.

So the past exists forever, it just depends on your vantage point.

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Some believe that our experience of time, one moment at a time, is only due to the fact that we cannot percieve the wholeness of time. In that theory, time is not really a series of moments strung together. All time --- past, present and future --- all of them exisit forever, and at the same "time." Time is just another dimension, like the spatial dimensions that we recongnize as space, but for some reason we experience time as a flow and can only percieve it a moment at a time. But in reality it exists in its entirety, just like space does.

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Originally Posted by imitator

A pissing contest? I could have sworn it was a thread discussing things, must have missed that memo.

You state that there is one truth, only one, no matter what. Thats a fine statement, but one that can not be backed up with actual evidence.

Is there something wrong with spending your time trying to prove what you see around you wrong? Wouldnt you end up reaching the same "conclusion" as the one you have reached, assuming your beliefs are correct? If what they are trying to prove wrong is a truth, then its impossible to prove it wrong using any kind of sound logic, and the more time that a person spent trying to prove it wrong, the more they would realize that it wasnt wrong, no?

Is everyone, or even a majority, all blaming the same person/place/thing/item?

I am trying hard to avoid discussing any of your personal beliefs, as they have been discussed before, and its more then likely pointless to try to rehash that discussion. But is it safe to assume that your comments about ignoring the "one truth" and "blaming the 1 they dont believe in" are references to your beliefs and faith?

It is fine to use your beliefs as the basis for your point/arguement, its nigh impossible to not do so in some manner when having a discussion. Even stating that you believe something to be the truth in this world... but you are attacking and insulting others if you state that only your truth is the true one, and nothing else can exist. Thats what I am saying, and you may not have intended to come off like that, but I dont think I was the only one to read that from what you said.

Now as for your reasons for not wanting to dicuss this with me, personally I find them nothing but a bunch of bullhonkey, but to each their own. Id hope you would be able to handle having a discussion with someone who might not agree with what you believe. Id hope you would be able to have a discussion with someone without constantly harping on past subjects discussed, or past things said.

If thats not the case, then I apologize for wasting your time, and I will put you on ignore so that I dont accidently respond to anything else you post, as I dont really pay attention to who is saying what when I reply.

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no im quite sure u knew who u were responding too don't play that card

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Originally Posted by palerider7777

no im quite sure u knew who u were responding too don't play that card

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I still dont even know who you are.

I am sure you left me negative rep at some point in time considering your attitude towards me, but since they only let you view a limited amount, I cant see any from you. And without rep to some thread to give me a clue as to some discussion we had, all I know is that you have a dislike for me for some reason.

Descartes is rolling in his grave right now.

Cogito ergo sum, my friends.

kk ladies and gentlemen. this thread is SHIT! its over, done with.... the question is is the past real???? well i say NO. (what for?) cuase i dont care, it passed. so basically everything you wrote was fake cause it is now in the pass!

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Originally Posted by TheGreatBenzino

kk ladies and gentlemen. this thread is SHIT! its over, done with.... the question is is the past real???? well i say NO. (what for?) cuase i dont care, it passed. so basically everything you wrote was fake cause it is now in the pass!

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So you are saying that since its already happened, it isnt real anymore?

And yes, I know, it was a troll on your part, but next time, at least learn how to spell PAST. S isnt even near T, so there is no excuse. :thumbsup:

Man, Your not even worth my time. you are the FIRST hater i have seen on this site. You will find anything, to bitch about. Your area must be dry....smoke a bowl relax.


oh and.....PAST!

Je pense, donc, je suis.

How do we know that car is real? *dies*

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

Some believe that our experience of time, one moment at a time, is only due to the fact that we cannot percieve the wholeness of time. In that theory, time is not really a series of moments strung together. All time --- past, present and future --- all of them exisit forever, and at the same "time." Time is just another dimension, like the spatial dimensions that we recongnize as space, but for some reason we experience time as a flow and can only percieve it a moment at a time. But in reality it exists in its entirety, just like space does.

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I've been thinking about this, and it raises some interesting questions..

If the future already exists, what becomes of novelty, spontaneity, and choice? From our perspective of reality, our limited view of the fourth dimension, these things make sense. But if everything has already happened, so to speak, outside of the confines of our limited perspective, then our fates are already determined, no?

Okay, is it just me, or is that title nonsense..."Does the past is real?"...must be a typo:D

As for the subject, I think its better for me to not respond is the spirituality section because I'd rather not get into an argument over religion. To each their own:)

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Originally Posted by Bluntmasterbabe

Okay, is it just me, or is that title nonsense..."Does the past is real?"...must be a typo:D

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English is not Coelho's first language.

That said, he actually has better English skills than a lot of people who do speak English as their first language. :stoned:

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Originally Posted by TheGreatBenzino

Man, Your not even worth my time. you are the FIRST hater i have seen on this site. You will find anything, to bitch about. Your area must be dry....smoke a bowl relax.


oh and.....PAST!

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u might want to watch out, he's good at ratting/reporting people that he can't get his way with. so watch out as he's always starting trouble and no one says a thing to him. and when u piss him off he'll act like a lil kid and start trying to find stuff wrong with u, like u did'nt spell this just right or that. u know how kids in grade school act when they don't get there, way opps i guess theres another point headed my way for speaking, meanwhile this joker here trolls all over this site to find someone to smart off to any chance he gets, and noone says a thing. lol just beware what u say on here thats all im gonna say.

Who the h*ll is Coelho??:D

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Originally Posted by afghooey

I've been thinking about this, and it raises some interesting questions..

If the future already exists, what becomes of novelty, spontaneity, and choice? From our perspective of reality, our limited view of the fourth dimension, these things make sense. But if everything has already happened, so to speak, outside of the confines of our limited perspective, then our fates are already determined, no?

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That is a good point.

It would seem that if this model were true, then the future is determined. But we percieve that we do make choices and our choices do make a difference to the future --- I've always believed that. So maybe this idea is just wrong. Or maybe there is some way that we have free choice within our moment-by-moment perspective, but when you look at the entirety of time from outside of our moment-by-moment perspective, we have already made our choices. Is that possible?

It always gets crazy when you try to look at things outside of the way you experinece them in your everyday life. Basically, you have to live your life as if reality is the way you experience it and your choices matter.

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Originally Posted by Bluntmasterbabe

Who the h*ll is Coelho??:D

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Coelho is who started the thread and wrote the title you asked about.
Beyond that, Coelho is a mystery....

Oh...Lmao...duh:D

Man...I'm stoned...:S2:

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Originally Posted by TheGreatBenzino

Man, Your not even worth my time. you are the FIRST hater i have seen on this site. You will find anything, to bitch about. Your area must be dry....smoke a bowl relax.


oh and.....PAST!

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Lol, this is a good one, a troll who doesnt realize he is being trolled.

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Originally Posted by Bluntmasterbabe

Oh...Lmao...duh:D

Man...I'm stoned...:S2:

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I love that kind of conversation!
What were we talking about again?

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

That is a good point.

It would seem that if this model were true, then the future is determined. But we percieve that we do make choices and our choices do make a difference to the future --- I've always believed that. So maybe this idea is just wrong. Or maybe there is some way that we have free choice within our moment-by-moment perspective, but when you look at the entirety of time from outside of our moment-by-moment perspective, we have already made our choices. Is that possible?

It always gets crazy when you try to look at things outside of the way you experinece them in your everyday life. Basically, you have to live your life as if reality is the way you experience it and your choices matter.

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If you follow String theory, and quantum physics in general, they state that if there is no way to determine what is going to happen for certain, 100%, at a specific moment, then everything that was possible to happen at that moment happens, but all in seperate alternate universes.

If this is true, then its possible for the "future" to be predetermined, but for us to still have the illusion of free will, and in some ways, it not be an illusion.

I am not so sure how much I buy into the infinite alternate universes idea, even though it is fundamental to quantum physics... but it is another way to look at it.

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Originally Posted by imitator

Lol, this is a good one, a troll who doesnt realize he is being trolled.

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Actually, i wasnt trolling, i posted on this one before... AND i may have judged you on your reply to me, it could of been a sarcastic remark, but after hearing about you, i'm not so sure i jumped the gun. but still with that said.... sorry for the possible character judge, I'll give you another chance.

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Originally Posted by imitator

If you follow String theory, and quantum physics in general, they state that if there is no way to determine what is going to happen for certain, 100%, at a specific moment, then everything that was possible to happen at that moment happens, but all in seperate alternate universes.

If this is true, then its possible for the "future" to be predetermined, but for us to still have the illusion of free will, and in some ways, it not be an illusion.

I am not so sure how much I buy into the infinite alternate universes idea, even though it is fundamental to quantum physics... but it is another way to look at it.

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I've heard that theory too --- that the universe is constantly splitting into infinite universes. Every possible thing that can happen at any given time actually does happen in one of those universes. In regards to free will, the universe we experience reflects our own personal choices; however, there are an infinite number of universes, containing an infinite number of other possible choices we could have made.

I don't know if I buy it either, but I guess it is useful for explaing some quantum physics.

One reassuring thing that you can take from this theory is that if you ever regret a choice, you can be consoled by the fact that in an infinite number of alternative universes, you made a different choice!