Stop back-door passage of national ID card

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Originally Posted by bhallg2k

"Oh, Can-a-da..."

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I've been thinking on that all night, I'm not sure I'd be willing to do it. But I would have to move from where I live now without question and before the ID's hit the street. Also scares me that I might not be able to sell my house when they come out without takeing such a heavy hit I will lose money. Because there is no way I beleive the numbers of people who think like us are limited. And if all of them decide to leave too I would take a hoseing on my house.

I was just saying that as a joke.

Sad to say it, but your worries are a little overblown on this one. Though, I wouldn't put it past some in government to try for a true national ID program.

However, as it stands now, the Real ID Act simply says that all states have to do more to verify a license applicant's personal information, that IDs need to have better security features to make them more difficult to forge and that they should be computer readable, as most are now (notice the black strip on yours).

It's not that big of a change. As far as travel and banking goes, you already have to show your license to get on a plane or open a bank account; and under the Patriot Act, those activities are already monitored. The only difference is that by 2008, the ID you carry to do those things must meet Homeland Security requirements (ie, be forgery-proof and be given after your home address is verified more thoroughly). Your license (ID) will still be issued by your home state and the federal government will not create an ID database.

States will also be given the option of creating a second tier of licenses that do not meet the federal requirements. Although you would still be able to drive and buy beer and whatnot with it, you wouldn't be able to use that ID to board a plane, open a bank account, etc.

It's a law mostly aimed at the state's DMVs. And knowing how Republicans operate, they probably won't even fund the initiative properly, like "No Child Left Behind."

This whole thing does send up a red flag, in my opinion, and it's worth fighting against. But don't get this Orwellian notion that you're going to have to carry a federally issued identification card to cross state borders and that the government will use it to monitor your every move. But you are right in that this could be a dangerous precurser to a more invasive plan.

Hell, if you live in NJ like I do, you've already gone through this. I had to have a notarized birth certificate, as if my standing in front of them wasn't evidence enough of me being born, and I ended up using a letter from Congress as my proof of address. Even after all of that, I still got grief from the DMV.

By the way, I'm a lifelong, die-hard liberal who's always on the lookout for this sort of stuff or any other erosion of civil liberties, just to let you know that I'm not spinning this with a conservative agenda. I don't feel right about this plan at all, but I'd rather have energy devoted to defeating the renewal of the Patriot Act.

You know what tho Bhall, If I were going to make a money bet on the current situation of things and where they would be in 15 or 20 years. I'd bet on a police state or something that is called by another name but being a police state on the base.

I think that most of the public either dont know or dont care where technology is advanceing. And advancement in this feild is very very dangerous, number one they are already talking about these chips being able to be connected to your bank accounts.

who is to say that the next step isnt makeing them into cell phones as well, truth is I nore most of the public really know how advanced this technology is and what it is capable of becomeing in the future. But i do have an imagination on me as you can tell by some of my theories. And I dont like where this is heading at all. And the way of thinking that it wont be that bad or its not much of a chnge from what it is now is even more dangerous than the chips.

It's the frog in the water bit bro, they know they cant simply take over the US people by force. Hell they have been makeing money on gun sales for so long, we would certainly be headed for a civil war should they try to police them now. But do it slowly and as they fabricate new threats for the US people to be afraid of they will little by little clamp down the dragnet until we are where they want us. By removeing our rights for things under the umbrella of home security.

Not to mention the advancements in renewable resources, the hybrid cars that are out now are just the begining of it. They will figure out how to make those cars more practical( they already are), and more and more americans will but them to cut the dependancy on fossil fuels with riseing gas prices. After that is said and done and most gas engines are not used anymore OR the GOV puts a limit on the amount of gasoline you can consume (keeping track of it via that nice little chip you now have) and then putting a clamp on gas all together by inventing yet another invisible threat that hasnt happen yet. That puts most of the worlds oil reserves in the hands of one nation who is then free to militarily police its population because they will lack the basic tools to fight back.

The things im saying I dont think will happen as soon as the cards come out, rather a bit at a time. Get us to accept it by limiting the coverage of it but not putting into effect laws to protect us from misuse or further changes to it. Then as the new threats are being forced apon the american people they can scare us further into giveing up more and more.

The non beleivers say what the hell are you talking baout none of this stuff has happen.....Yet.

But what I dont get about that is, our GOV is makeing these new laws based on things that havent happen yet, and they invaded a country based on things that never happened.

Our GOV is looking at the future .....why can't you? (not a question for you Bhall, just a general question to all)

Not this guy...... With his wild X-File theories....

blah,blah,blah!same shit different day.

I don't want to summarily dismiss your ideas about an overreaching government out of hand. I mean, I think some of them are plausible, but in the end I don't think they're really possible.

While it may not seem like it if you're extremely liberal (like me) or extremely conservative, Americans, as a whole, have a pretty good collective bullshit detector and always seem to come in and stop especially egregious abuses of power when the moment to do so is critical.

However, I do agree with you that the government plays on citizens' fears to advance certain back-door agendas. All you have to do to recognize that is see the Justice Department's use of the Patriot Act to prosecute people other than terrorists. It's certainly legal for them to do so according to the Act, but the law wasn't passed with those intentions. It was hurriedly passed in the wake of 9/11 without committee markup or public hearing because Congress believed, correctly, that the vast majority of the public wanted the FBI, CIA and armed services to have all the power possible to find and defeat terrorists. I think that if the bill was vetted more closely by members of Congress and the public at large, it would've been amended in a way that didn't infringe upon many of the long held rights of the people and maybe there wouldn't be such ardent opposition to it's renewal.

That's kind of my point, really. I don't think I'm as paranoid as you are about things, but it does worry me that government is becoming less and less transparent, as the Founders envisioned.

Case in point: Last November, the House passed a bill that gave the chairmen of the House and Senate appropriations committees and their assistants the authority to look over anyone's tax filings for basically any reason. This small provision, buried in a 1,000 page omnibus spending bill, wasn't even discovered until after the bill was passed by the House. There was a potential for government shutdown, as the Senate refused to pass it (which was necessary as a whole to fund governent operations) as written.

Whether it's public apathy, the government increasingly cloaking its conducting of business, or, as I think, a smaller combination of the two, it's definitely something worth keeping watch over with an eye for reform.

I think you guys have been reading a little too much Orwell.

their minds are gone!

Some people just have to believe that everyone is conspiring against them.... some would call it paranoia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bhallg2k

I don't want to summarily dismiss your ideas about an overreaching government out of hand. I mean, I think some of them are plausible, but in the end I don't think they're really possible.

While it may not seem like it if you're extremely liberal (like me) or extremely conservative, Americans, as a whole, have a pretty good collective bullshit detector and always seem to come in and stop especially egregious abuses of power when the moment to do so is critical.

However, I do agree with you that the government plays on citizens' fears to advance certain back-door agendas. All you have to do to recognize that is see the Justice Department's use of the Patriot Act to prosecute people other than terrorists. It's certainly legal for them to do so according to the Act, but the law wasn't passed with those intentions. It was hurriedly passed in the wake of 9/11 without committee markup or public hearing because Congress believed, correctly, that the vast majority of the public wanted the FBI, CIA and armed services to have all the power possible to find and defeat terrorists. I think that if the bill was vetted more closely by members of Congress and the public at large, it would've been amended in a way that didn't infringe upon many of the long held rights of the people and maybe there wouldn't be such ardent opposition to it's renewal.

That's kind of my point, really. I don't think I'm as paranoid as you are about things, but it does worry me that government is becoming less and less transparent, as the Founders envisioned.

Case in point: Last November, the House passed a bill that gave the chairmen of the House and Senate appropriations committees and their assistants the authority to look over anyone's tax filings for basically any reason. This small provision, buried in a 1,000 page omnibus spending bill, wasn't even discovered until after the bill was passed by the House. There was a potential for government shutdown, as the Senate refused to pass it (which was necessary as a whole to fund governent operations) as written.

Whether it's public apathy, the government increasingly cloaking its conducting of business, or, as I think, a smaller combination of the two, it's definitely something worth keeping watch over with an eye for reform.

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I hope you are right, I hope that I am just as paraniod as some think I am.(this could be a side effect of what brings me to this board to begin with)

And everything that I have said now or in the past has ment to be theory. In the sense of a what if or whats happens.

I admit I get out of hand a bit and I let my head really wonder into things. but that shouldnt take away from the possiblity of such things happening.

It all sort of hinges on whether you beleive 9/11 was comitted on our own say so.

Or If you beleive W was placed into office. (placed being that he cheated his way into office useing a network of foreighn connections and relatives, or directly placed by Bilderberg)

and lets not forget the Bilderberg meetings.

the fear campaighn


If you beleive any of these or can aknowledge they even exist, then its just a short juant away from beleiving they can commit more such attacks to further a cause. And then if they can do that sort of stuff, then they have the ability to do more things than we can imagine.

My theories are geared toward the possiblities that are unthinkable by most. To call me stupid, uneducated, crazy, ignorant, or any other names is only makeing others feel better about the looming future that none of us can predict. They simply cant imagine that anyone can posses such power.

If you dont beleive any of those things, then you beleive what the GOV tells you, that we are in danger from terrorist. I am just a quack that found a keyboard amonst his chailmail and Everquest posters.

I'm not religiuos, and aliens have not stuck anything in my ass to my knowledge.

But the universe is entirely too big for us to be alone in it.

I also have never read a single Orwell story.

And the issue about tagging one bill onto another to sneak it in has been happening for years. And 9 times out of 10 public view is yes its not right to do that but thats what they do. Its like saying polititions are crooks or saying they lie. Its amazeingly publicly accepted that they have a sleazy reputation. So this doesnt suprise me a bit, its more supriseing that that havent reformed the proccess to not allow this sort of thing to take place. Again to me it doesnt make sense so there has to be a reason for it to keep happening. ( place political conspirancy theory here )

Peace.