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I see your point. I guess the problem with socialism in general is the definition, and how it is tied into communism so easily. Finland is a socialist democracy, but we have free markets, and like I stated above, the government only controls some sectors to ensure the well-being of the public, like schools and health care. Maybe the name just confused me...Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyGuyOU
cuz we got a problem with them communist bastards in america... i bet most people dont even know why? they just got a problem with it, same way they got a problem with any middle eastern, french or muslim
America as a whole (there are exceptions) has a good hateful memory, everything that we've hated we remember here, most things like slavery and segregation are just being countered with ideas like reverse discrimination within less than 60 years from civil rights movement, cuz we didnt hate it as a whole country as much as we hated the bolsheviks
Socialism has a very negative stereotype associated with it in America, while I know what many people see in europe tells a different story, it's just that America rebels against most foreign ideas, check the history, thats like the "thing" about America
in fact it does. u know there are other millionaires and billinaires across the world right? and most other developed countries with exception of US and maybe another one or two have some sort of socialist programs embedded within their systems and the rest is merely free market.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoned88911
just as stated earlier by others
I know a lot of lazy and dumb people in America that are not broke, and i know many hard workers that are broke.
on a side note socialism is one thing, socialist looking programs are another
its the same misconception about environmentalism and environmental science.
they are different.
Question.. if Other countries who have socialist practices are so much better.. why are we #1 in GDP? Socialism directly impacts your ability to control the direction in which your life takes.Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingimam
Case in point and I hope someone here can chime in to acknowledge as what i'm saying is true, because I'm sure everyone here who hasn't lived in the netherlands will call me a liar.. but here we go.
In the netherlands the government for the most part tells you where to live. If you have a 4 person household then you are told where to live. If your household downsizes to 2 people then you are moved right away to a smaller home.
Recently a friend of mine's grandmother lost her husband. Within 1 day she was notified that she would be being relocated to a smaller home.
When someone has rule over where you live then where is your motivation to aspire for more in life. A person could say that all their aspirations in life revolve around a person's home. To change it to their liking.. to update it.. to make it a comfortable environment for themselves. What aspiration do you have to make the money to do this when the government tells you where to live (taxes are also way high there too).
I love Europe.. I love visiting; but I wouldn't want to live there primarily for the number of social programs and fairly socialist governments there. I don't like being told what I can and can't do... which is the same problem I have with the direction the American Government is going. Our government is starting to get so bloated it's ridiculous.
Less government now please!
cuz we are 300 million people, cuz we are not just 1 country, we are 50 countries merged together, we are literally a continentQuote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
cuz we landed in a place just less than 600 years ago that was totally untouched in means of resource... that gave us a massive boom
cuz we practiced free labor (slavery) for a good part of our history and that gave us an advantage over others
the rest of the worlds resources have been used for a much longer time (excluding oil)
our GDP is based on consumer spending. average american holds thousands of dollars in debt, so far we have kept it rolling on debt, at some point u cant accumulate more debt
we got WW II, the rest of the world was literally destroyed to ruins, they have had to start over (most of europe, japan and even china)
u know what counts? PPP, or GDP per capita, not just the GDP alone, and then compare the population and general number of people in each country who live under poverty line
u will find out that Swiss has only 4000 dollars less than us in PPP, but look at their size and their system and their population and their poverty stats
A lot of our richer people cancel out the effect of our poor in this calcualtion, go ahead and compare the poverty statistics in US and other developed countries
here is just one link for the start List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, i must go to a test now, but i'm interested in this debate, I'll be back
an for clarification: I'm not a socialist nor do I advocate socialism but I see nothing wrong with certain things that people consider to be socialist, like a socialist healthcare system. or a socialist taxation system
we are capitalist right? how come we got the highest corporate tax rate in the world, forcing companies to seek means of saving by outsourcing and other means... think about it till i get back:D;)
I would like to confirm this. I consider myself intelligent. Im college educated. yet, last week I spent two hours trying to find out what the fuck socialism actually is and why Obama was being called one. The conclusion I came to was it was just more hypocritical BS. Some things are ok to be sponsored by the gov't ...ie schools, welfare, disability payment. but others not... ie. health care. Ive had the opportunity to travel to a few parts of world. And it changed my outlook in life because it broke down the fallacies I was taught as a kid about America being the best and everywhere else inferior. I had a close friend attend med. school in a county with social medicine. he became very sick and was in ICU. Never paid a dime as a foreigner and as a med student said he had great care. How is this bad socialism yet I personally know four people on disability from the gov't and I dont think one of them really needs it. yet somehow, this is good socialism?Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmKowalski
stoned88911 I think youre speaking in black and white. Not everyone can be a billionaire. you said it yourself.... brains and hard work. what if you have no brains? shitty luck? I also know smart hard working people that dont have much because they choose to have some level of morality. Morality can hold many people back from making massive amounts of money. Furthermore, I would argue that many athletes and modern day musicians dont have super high IQ's (but high earners)and some dont even have work ethics. For every LaBron James there is a Sabatian Telfare!
This black and white thinking is the problem I was getting at.
Dude - All modern societies are socialist to some degree including the United States. Thinking of it as Black and White issue (Democracy & Capitalism versus Socialism and Big Brother) is juvenile and silly.
The Wic program, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Unemployment Programs, Federal/State Student financial aid programs. Are these anti-democratic institutions? Do they hinder the hand of the free market?
How about the FDA? Completely free markets do not exist because it would be dangerous. Would you prefer that no standards for safety and hygiene be set for the food you eat?
Do you drive a car? Would you be happier if every road were privately owned? What would your commute be like with a toll gate every few miles paying a different owner for the use of their section of highway?
Speaking of that car - your seat belts, crumple zones, air bags, and other safety standards are set because our "evil socialist government" has set standards that manufacturers must meet for any vehicle that is to be licensed and driven on our roads.
What about the EPA? Would you be happier if we went back to the days when the air of our cities was black with soot?
A pure free-market society would be an absolute nightmare to live in - and even more of a nightmare to do business in.
Now, the difference is in degree - and of realistic perspective. The fiction says that this is the land of opportunity in which anyone can be a millionaire if they just work hard enough (or billionaire as someone said earlier in this thread) Isn't it strange then, that we have the highest disparity of wealth of any industrialized nation in the world? The fiction says that we have the best healthcare system in the world. Isn't it strange then that we have a shorter average life span and pay more per capita for health care than all these evil socialist societies with single-payer health care systems that we're so proud not to be?
This juvenile Us and Them, Black and White, Day and Night thinking just isn't productive, and doesn't accurately reflect any real society or government in the world.
i gotta give it to ya: well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by theforthdrive
there is a wisdom in 1 year of traveling to different parts of the world and learning about different systems, cultures and perspectives that one cannot find in a decade of studying in one location, even if it's the best university in the world.
I've met a number of Americans who have traveled and lived abroad and almost every single one of them says something similar to the above story (including some of my professors, and I'm talking about Texas people, u know...)
but i already know the counter argument: "I aint gonna pay a dime for someone else's health problems cuz when i need help, i can take care of myself"
I wish every person who says such a thing was actually a follower of this idea, but a lot of people just gurgle this idea and dont even know why and barely follow it. insurance for instance is basically using other people's money to your advantage. also u pay for your time of need and other people's problems even if u never use it due to excellent health. get it? its just profit oriented for insurance companies
Social healthcare system, is basically a non-profit insurance system governed by a government entity. Taxes are the premiums, everyone should pay them, sure not everyone does, but this will not make the system any bad. just think about it, doesn't this system sound familiar?
In Texas we have 1 out of 5 drivers without liability insurance on the roads which causes other people's premiums to go higher and public safety risks to increase. Regardless, still those who follow the rules and laws and pay taxes and premiums still "pay the cost" of the irresponsible individuals. because the insurance companies are profit based and will pass their risk cost to their customers... OK for car insurance which is not nearly as expensive and as hard to get as health insurance I'm down with free market and competition.
but healthcare is a different issue, as the saying says "one is too many" we are dealing with something that cannot be manipulated, "health".
sadly, one problem with profit oriented healthcare is that it plays with people's quality of life and even their death, over what? profit and money? I don't think money is worth everything. At least a companies' or a few in individuals (shareholders) profit aint worth nobodies life.
its called healthcare how can u take "care" of someone's health when the first order of business is to take care of your money even if its at expense of someone's life. these two will not always go along, u know...
see, doctors and hospital staff are usually sworn and thus provide healthcare and emergencies (lets say most of the time) to even those whom they know will not pay the cost, thats an ethical behavior. but insurance companies dont think that way.
If u want something bad enough in america u can get it. The goverment isnt going to hold you back.
Of course there is pros and cons on every type of goverment
Just in MY OPINION socialism pros dont outweighn there cons.
The "I don't want to pay for some lazy bum's healthcare" logic is faulty.
First, for those at the bottom of the economic pool the only health care options available are emergency rooms and - if you're lucky and live in large enough of an urban area to have such facilities - a free clinic. If you have the cash or if you have the insurance, you are footing the bill in higher costs when you check into the hospital. The money has to come from somewhere.
Secondly, we lack a single-payer health care plan and therefore have enormous overhead and administrative costs - much higher than any other nation - because we duplicate the same tasks over and over and over again.
Third, debilitating medical conditions put people into a situation where they must struggle to get by - thereby creating a drain on society as a whole. Easily prevented and easily treated health issues can become much more serious, and much more expensive, when routine care is not an option, only emergency room visits when the problem becomes serious enough.
We pay more per person in the United States for health care than any other country in the world. Think about that.
We pay more, and we get less. Our average life expectancy is shorter in the United States than the U.K, Canada, Japan, Most of Europe, and we keep falling further and further behind. As of 2004, we are ranked 42nd in the world in terms of life expectancy. If our healthcare system is supposed to be the best in the world, how can this be?
So let's think about this: We want to fight against the idea of a single payer health care system because we don't want to subsidize some lazy schmuck. As a result we ALL pay more for OUR OWN healthcare than we would under a single payer system that covers everyone. And what do we get out of the deal? We get a society that has to deal with the economic burdon of more people who are disabled, dying, or simply too sick to work. Does that seem like a good deal to you?
And what about that "lazy" schmuck that you don't want to help? Are you better off when the minimum wage worker down the street gets evicted from their home because they weren't able to work for a month or two due to illness? Does one more boarded up house on your street and one more homeless person in your city help your property value? What about the mother who can't get to work because her car got reposesed when she couldn't make the payment after her kid broke his arm and she had to take him to the hospital - is that going to help you out in the end? Is the economy in your town going to be better off with one less paycheck coming in and one less paycheck being spent in local shops?
Guess what folks - the more people unemployed in your city, the harder it is for anyone to get a decent job - 'cause with more people unemployed there's always someone else willing to do the same job for less. Higher unemployment means lower wages, and lower wages mean less income for merchants. The more people who scrape by just to afford the bare minimum for groceries at Aldi foods - the less money local businesses receive. Remember Joe the plumber? If someone can't afford to buy food or pay the bills, they aren't going to be calling Joe when the bathroom sink starts leaking - they'll just have to put a pot under it to catch the drips. Joe looses out.
And it isn't just Joe - what happens to whole streets when owner after owner has to put off painting their house for another year, has to put off basic repairs - what happens to YOUR home value then, neighbor? The real world isn't a big game with everyone else as the competition, it's one big interconnected economy and the better off the majority is the better the opportunities for success for any one individual in the community - including you.