US & Israel vs Iran & Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingimam
these are people who are smart enough to make a deal with US if US wants to sit down and talk without preconditions... they are different than al-qaeda's type of extremists... they are opportunists as well and like to hold their power, so im quite certain a deal can force them far better than a war
just look @ what we did with Libya & al-Gaddafi
we turned an enemy into a non-enemy
same can be done with the mullahs, i strongly believe
its time to get them on the table and do some str8 talks and i know for fact these bastards are more than willing to avoid a war and make a deal, but they dont like to look weak accepting preconditioned talks and if they gotta deal with a war they will do it in such a situation, and will portray themselves (also according to international law) that they were attacked pre-emptively and unprovoked and certainly if we use nukes on them, that will only help them and their ideas to survive longer and gain more popularity
in support of this argument, i cite (perhaps) the most hated president in the world
Iranian President Sounds Off On Israel : NPR
Quote:
Ahmadinejad said that diplomatic relations between Iran and the United States should continue to open up, citing a willingness to cooperate to uphold security in Iraq.
Asked what steps might help ease those relations, Ahmadinejad said, "We've never entered the United States and caused problems for the people here, but the American government has done that to us. So, our first proposal is that the government has to stop doing that."
this is only to show that they rather have their power and relations with US just like many others such s Saudi Arabia and most other arab nations who enjoy the highest level of relationship with the US and yet fail to have much of any kind of freedom.
They are not too eager to have a war that will perhaps be apocalyptic at least for the region.
i still dont know why we refuse to talk to them, thats just stupid. thats asking for trouble for us and for the rest of the world by bullying against a loony but weaker bully
boycotting your enemy will never get u peace, negotiations do, and we as the main objector to Iran's nuclear program have yet to hold 1 direct session of talks with them. only citing invalid excuses that Europeans are talking and getting nowhere, well thats cuz we want the talks to fail by not directly participating and plus, when did iran have any problems with europe? their fear is the US not germany which used to be their largest business partner in europe till a short time ago
if we dont talk it means we dont want to talk and it means we are willing to take the next option which is conflict. thats why i really want OUR diplomats to do something on this issue, not europeans not mediators, we must talk to them directly even if it has to be in secret... this problem has a non-violent solution cuz the military option will only deepen the current crisis and perhaps lengthen it as well
US & Israel vs Iran & Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingimam
Some things to be worried about in that abstract: "India defied the US". The Canadians (as much as some of them here embarrass themselves), are very much in terms equal to Iran with regards to fossil fuel supply to Canada if we take into consideration trade partnering.
Canada supplies a large chunk of our crude, would we actually jeopardize that over ideological difference? I think not, and we should IMHO think hard about the ramifications of a middle eastern power other than Israel posessing a nuclear device. The question remains, does an Islamic state's posession of a nuclear device (such as a weapon) create instability? Just ask India, and then wonder why they are supportive of a trading partner (India) having one...
US & Israel vs Iran & Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBoy812
Some things to be worried about in that abstract: "India defied the US". The Canadians (as much as some of them here embarrass themselves), are very much in terms equal to Iran with regards to fossil fuel supply to Canada if we take into consideration trade partnering.
Canada supplies a large chunk of our crude, would we actually jeopardize that over ideological difference? I think not, and we should IMHO think hard about the ramifications of a middle eastern power other than Israel posessing a nuclear device. The question remains, does an Islamic state's posession of a nuclear device (such as a weapon) create instability? Just ask India, and then wonder why they are supportive of a trading partner (India) having one...
my problem is not that i deny or believe a so called Islamic government's possession of nuclear technology or weapons for that matter can be tolerated.... my problem is that we have the key to peacefully solve this and yet we refuse to even sit down and talk with the enemy
problem with India vs Pakistan is far more complicated and imo irrelvant to the subject of iran, if u have read the history u know that india and pakistan were originally one country, there were clashes between muslims and hindus and under rule of britian on that land Britain decided that we massively move all muslims to one side and keep hindus on the other thus creating pakistan and india
to best of my knowledge nationalism of iranians of all religions and races and tribes has appealed over their differences in the past, check the history and u will find that people vs people has not taken place until the islamic revolution.
and pakistani indian relations have deep roots amongst their people
India and Pakistan have had wars, Iran and Israel have not! and i know the frustration with world powers over irans stance regarding israel but u gotta understand if we dont at least let true & fair negotiations proceed we are choosing Armageddon.
and if u want to look @ it historically u should go back to the Persian Empire's time of Cyrus the great and find out what jews think of him. he literally rescued the Israelites in the land of Babel.
i dont want to shift the discussion to those subjects tho, so back to the point:
after all if we cant solve the problems with words and deals there will be wars.
time to bully our way thru is over.... britain, france, portugal, spain, netherlands, etc have all had their time of dominance in the history and most failed harshly because they failed to realize its time to change the policy and the game...
same will repeat if we dont "outsmart ourselves". we can be blinded with pride & the power we possess and thats what worries me cuz when those empires failed, there was no nuclear weapon to end the game but now there is and i highly doubt that will do any good in the long run for any human being
I'm not saying we gotta legitimize the mullahs or accept a nuclear armed iran... no, what im saying is that there are diplomatic ways and deals that can be made and compromises that can be made to achieve a peaceful resolution.
extremists on both sides will lead to nothing but war and conflict.
US & Israel vs Iran & Russia
I do agree; diplomacy has been an after thought in current American foreign policy. Blowback has to be considered, as imperialist desires have created a hardheaded enemy.
This should not be considered sympathetic to the Pan-American POV currently supported by right wing extremists such as Rush, or McCain. India has done a decent job of contending with another nuclear power, one that is so close to their border.
US & Israel vs Iran & Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingimam
i was among the crowd u see in the beginning of the film a few years back.
my best friend died that night. they threw him alive from his 3rd story dorm room. he was like my brother.:(:mad: and many more of my friends have been slashed or punished in different ways for having a girlfriend or holding a party and drinking alcohol, from since i remember, this was goin on, since 7th or 8th grade
Well... thats indeed a very good reason to hate them... i didnt imagine you had actually suffered such things... so forgive me.
US & Israel vs Iran & Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelho
Well... thats indeed a very good reason to hate them... i didnt imagine you had actually suffered such things... so forgive me.
forgive u for what? u have not done anything wrong!!! u just asked me a question
it does not matter if I have suffered from these bastards or not... thousands more have indeed suffered far more than I personally have.
there is a reason to hate them, but look @ me, i hate them to my guts and i still dont war with them, cuz the war will not solve anything, certainly will not "liberate" and free Iranians from what is now their regime... its oppression in peace now, it will be double oppression in violence when war starts
Iraq is a textbook example, sure Saddam was a bad person and it was a good thing for the world to see him go... but when u do things with the wrong intent and with lies, this is the result: NO RESULT
Iraqis have died for lies, Americans have died for lies, British have died for lies, and according to the very American intelligence reports al-qaeda is nowhere close to its death and has become a worldwide cult that many idiots follow, thus America is no safer imo cuz of the war in Iraq, Bin laden and Zawaheri are still alive and on the run and working against us, Iranian regime has gotten its most dangerous enemy destroyed (Yes, believe it or not Saddam was far more of a threat to them than US or Israel ever were, he indeed imposed an 8 years of bloody war on that regime and the people-with west's aid) and thus now having much more power and influence in mideast, Iraqis are really not much better in means of material life than they were under sanctioned Saddam's Iraq and US is just now far more hated than it was on sep 12 2001. Al-qaeda gave US a very good opportunity by that stupid attack for it to fix its foreign policy, and what did we do? we just tripled the intensity of the same stupid foreign policy that had gotten us to that point.
The world was with America on toppling Taliban, even Iran was on US side.
Who was on our side regarding Iraq? and even few of those nobodies on our side, have since defected our side
so, in conclusion, another war will not make USA any safer at all nor will it free Iranians from their oppressive regime, it will be from muddy nasty ditch to a deep dark well type of move for everyone.
and thats why the USA and NO OTHER STATE should sit down and talk to these people and figure out a deal, or else my friends, our world will be over the way we know it today... yes the way we know it today, the post 9/11 world will turn into post iran invasion world which will be far more worse!!!! for everyone not just Americans or Iranians or Israelis, it will impact almost every nation on this planet.
this war is not going to be won conventionally, and i doubt it will ever be won by any party involved
at best it will become another vietnam
