Genocide

[Zimzum]

(mods if this is in the wrong forum, sorry. Thought I would save you the trouble of moving it :) )

Why don't we take action on genocide that is happening around the world? Why let people die a needless death? Instead we turn a blinded eye on these people. Some of you want to give Iran an "eye for an eye" if they nuke Israel, but we would be no better then these people in the end.

Screamers (http://www.screamersmovie.com/)

Synopsis

Documentary feature examining why genocides keep occurring -- from the Armenian genocide in 1915, to the Holocaust, Bosnia, Rwanda and now Darfur -- through the eyes and music of the Grammy award-winning rock band â??System of a Down,â?� based in Los Angeles, whose members are all grandchildren of genocide survivors. As the band tours the world and touches on the locations and stories of genocide in the last century, the film follows the personal story of the lead singerâ??s grandfather, a 96-year old survivor of the Armenian genocide, one of the few remaining survivors from his village in Turkey. With the arguments of Harvard Professor Samantha Power, the personal stories of survivors from Armenia, Rwanda and Darfur, policy critics and whistleblowers â?? the â??screamersâ?� â?? the film targets the problem of genocide denial, with specific reference to the Turkish governmentâ??s current campaign to stop its citizens from discussing the genocide. When the band arrives back in the United States, they confront the hypocrisy of U.S. foreign policy in the debate on genocide recognition, with Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, actively blocking a vote in Congress. Through the bandâ??s efforts to get Dennis to â??Do the Right Thingâ?� and Powerâ??s thesis that Americaâ??s interest has always been to stay neutral, no matter how wide-scale the carnage, the film shows how successive Presidents and corporate interests have conspired to turn a blind eye to genocides as they are happening â?? whether it be Iraqi Kurds in the 80s, Rwanda in the 90s or Darfur today. After the Holocaust, we may say â??never againâ?? -- but we donâ??t mean it.

[darkside]

because were too busy invading the oil rich regions of the world with ties to the government. because the people in control only care about one thing..$$$$$$$$. if only we would have spent the trillion $ we wasted destroying iraq for ridding the world of poverty and genocide, the world would be in much better shape.

[psychocat]

War is a lucrative business, give the isrealis weapons for millions of dollars or spend it on disarming everyone.
GREED is the reason pure and simple , if it doesn't serve someones (financial ) interests then they just won't bother.
Your economy persists because of the price fixing done by goverments and business and they are the ones who decide what everything should cost so they can mantain this facade of power.
Money is a concept without real value.

[pisshead]

it's about more than money though, we're dealing with those who print the worthless fiat money that's only been inflating more and more and more and more...

it's about power and control and tyranny and a tiny elite controlling the populations through many different methods of mind control and false flag terrorist attacks.

[Ozarks]

Darfur was heading the right direction, we had coalition put together at the UN to send in (real) troops to protect the Christan minority from Muslim majority in Kartun, guarantees of land and air space for humanitarian relieve supplies.

Unfortunately a few Democrats in the Senate along with Republican Chaffee (who lost) have filibustered and convinced Josh Bolton to step down as (recess appointed) UN Ambassador.

Regardless of how you feel about Bolton he was making progress on Darfur,behind the scenes and on the security counsel, with out Bolton there it's going to be put back on the back burner, the new US Ambassador is going to have to start all over, and a lot of people are going to raped and murdered because of it.

[BlueCat]

They want you to think this is a religious war Ozark!

This is not a religious war it is a war over oil rights, mineral rights and water rights. American corporations have had their "Armies" in the Sudan for years.

The Neocons literally feed on fear and death. They profit from it. They sell weapons to anyone that will buy and while everyone is fighting they rape the land of its natural resources.

It is amazing that the drought and famine never seem to reach the rich isn't it?

All the world should be turning to Africa right now but instead we are in Iraq and the longer it goes on the richer the war mongers get.

We could put a stop this by simply stopping the weapon sales.

The foreign policy risks of escalating arms exports are enormous. Most U.S. weaponry is sold to the Middle East and other strife-torn regions, helping to fan the flames of war instead of promoting stability. More than 40 percent of the international sales of major conventional weapons between 1984 and 1994 went to nations at war such as Iraq, Somalia and Sudan, according to the United Nations Development Program's 1994 Human Development Report. Civilians are increasingly the major victims of war. They accounted for half of all war deaths during the first half of this century, 64 percent in the '60s and 74 percent in the '80s. The share of civilian casualties appears to be higher still in the '90s. The United States has been a major arms supplier to nations at war. Since 1985, participants in 45 ongoing conflicts received over $42 billion worth of U.S. weapons, according to a 1995 World Policy Institute report. Among the major conflicts in 1993 and 1994 90 percent involved one or more parties that had received U.S. weapons or military technology prior to the out break of fighting.

It is big business and the top leaders of this country are profiting dearly.

And then what happens? OUR soldiers get killed with their own US weapons it is happening right now.

[Ozarks]

They want you to think this is a religious war Ozark!

This is not a religious war it is a war over oil rights, mineral rights and water rights. American corporations have had their "Armies" in the Sudan for years.

The Neocons literally feed on fear and death. They profit from it. They sell weapons to anyone that will buy and while everyone is fighting they rape the land of its natural resources.

It is amazing that the drought and famine never seem to reach the rich isn't it?

All the world should be turning to Africa right now but instead we are in Iraq and the longer it goes on the richer the war mongers get.

We could put a stop this by simply stopping the weapon sales.

The foreign policy risks of escalating arms exports are enormous. Most U.S. weaponry is sold to the Middle East and other strife-torn regions, helping to fan the flames of war instead of promoting stability. More than 40 percent of the international sales of major conventional weapons between 1984 and 1994 went to nations at war such as Iraq, Somalia and Sudan, according to the United Nations Development Program's 1994 Human Development Report. Civilians are increasingly the major victims of war. They accounted for half of all war deaths during the first half of this century, 64 percent in the '60s and 74 percent in the '80s. The share of civilian casualties appears to be higher still in the '90s. The United States has been a major arms supplier to nations at war. Since 1985, participants in 45 ongoing conflicts received over $42 billion worth of U.S. weapons, according to a 1995 World Policy Institute report. Among the major conflicts in 1993 and 1994 90 percent involved one or more parties that had received U.S. weapons or military technology prior to the out break of fighting.

It is big business and the top leaders of this country are profiting dearly.

And then what happens? OUR soldiers get killed with their own US weapons it is happening right now.




Yeah, all of this "it's all America's fault" nonsense is much more exciting than sitting down and doing the hard work necessary to save these lives.

BTW, :error:

1 Yes this is a religious war, it's genocide-ethnic cleansing based on "religion"


2 The Muslim (Arab) Government in Katun is not killing the Christian (black African) minority in Darfur with American weapons.

[BlueCat]

Oh really and how do you know that? Did you know that there are X US military that call themselves the Army of God and say they are protecting Christians in the Sudan? They aren't they are soldiers of fortune paid for by the corporations.

There are a lot more none Christains dying in Africa right now but everytime a Christain is killed it makes the news and every Christian publication on this planet. You are being used to feed the flames. THey tell you its the democrats or liberals but it is all a smoke screen. THe planet is running out of resources and the riches companies are trying to position themselves at the trough. Where ever war is those companies are there.

THe bottom line is in all countries where there is war there are also indigenous people's that clash with globalization and western governments are distiquishing these peoples. Either by fueling the wars or ignoring the conflicts all together. Just like we did to the native peoples in the USA and everyone is fooled into thinking it is some other conflict so nothing is done about it.



I can go country by country for you if you like.

West Africa: Niger Delta peoples' struggles against the Nigerian and state governments and foreign companies, including Shell and ExxonMobil, have resulted in considerable bloodshed over the past decade. In June, local communities assailed the World Bank's International Finance Corporation for approving loans to local commercial banks that would then lend the money to Shell contractors. Shell is being sued in U.S. courts for alleged complicity with the military government in the 1995 arrest, trial, and execution of nine activists from the Ogoni community. Even under the elected government of President Olesegun Obasanjo, the region has remained under virtual occupation. In 1999, Nigerian security forces razed an Ijaw community of 15,000 (Odi) killing dozens of unarmed citizens. Oil revenues and their regional distribution remain a source of great contention in the broader national conflict among the country's three largest ethnic groups, the Hausa-Fulani in the North, the Yoruba of the West, and the Igbo in the South. Washington has provided training and equipment for Nigerian troops since Obasanjo took over.

[Ozarks]

Oh really and how do you know that? Did you know that there are X US military that call themselves the Army of God and say they are protecting Christians in the Sudan? They aren't they are soldiers of fortune paid for by the corporations.

Back to the point, the hard work that needs be done to save these lives is not going to get done, because of a couple of Senators (who are democratic in this case) are not strong enough to stand up and say, my 1st judgment was wrong, Bolton has shown that he is capable of doing a good job at the UN.



There are a lot more none Christains dying in Africa right now but everytime a Christain is killed it makes the news and every Christian publication on this planet. You are being used to feed the flames.

I don't oppose them being murdered because they're "Christan" I oppose them being murdered because they're "non-combatants" who can not defend themselves. I'm not being "used" by anyone.



THey tell you its the democrats or liberals but it is all a smoke screen. THe planet is running out of resources

Absolute nonsense, stop watching those solant green re-runs, the only countries going without are the same countries that are corrupt and don't have functional capitalist systems. It's not rocket science even "communist" China figured it out, "economically"





THe bottom line is in all countries where there is war there are also indigenous people's that clash with globalization and western governments are distiquishing these peoples. Either by fueling the wars or ignoring the conflicts all together. Just like we did to the native peoples in the USA and everyone is fooled into thinking it is some other conflict so nothing is done about it.

Back to the big conspiracy theory, the whole world is blind and stupid, but you know the truth



I can go country by country for you if you like.

West Africa: Niger Delta peoples' struggles against the Nigerian and state governments and foreign companies, including Shell and ExxonMobil, have resulted in considerable bloodshed over the past decade. In June, local communities assailed the World Bank's International Finance Corporation for approving loans to local commercial banks that would then lend the money to Shell contractors. Shell is being sued in U.S. courts for alleged complicity with the military government in the 1995 arrest, trial, and execution of nine activists from the Ogoni community. Even under the elected government of President Olesegun Obasanjo, the region has remained under virtual occupation. In 1999, Nigerian security forces razed an Ijaw community of 15,000 (Odi) killing dozens of unarmed citizens. Oil revenues and their regional distribution remain a source of great contention in the broader national conflict among the country's three largest ethnic groups, the Hausa-Fulani in the North, the Yoruba of the West, and the Igbo in the South. Washington has provided training and equipment for Nigerian troops since Obasanjo took over.


And it's going to continue until people have non-corrupt Governments that at least acknowledge the human being as such, and have a functioning economies, the Africans are no different than anyone else they want the same for themselves and their children.

And yes, companies defend their interests/investments just like people do. Who would have thought that the people who run them big bad evil corporations would let human emotion enter into their judgments on business matters. Bad, bad people.:rolleyes:

[Psycho4Bud]

This is from "04".........WE wanted to stop the weapons sales. Lets see what the French attitude was at the time. If you do some more research you'll find that France was/is the one selling Sudan their weapons with a reason....

France says it does not support US plans for international sanctions on Sudan if violence continues in Darfur.
The UN Security Council is debating a US draft resolution imposing sanctions on militias accused of "ethnic cleansing" against non-Arabs.

The US also hinted that the sanctions could be extended to the government.

Meanwhile, African leaders have urged Khartoum to stop bombing Darfur and say their proposed 300-strong force will have a mandate to protect civilians.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell says promises to reign in the pro-government militia, known as the Janjaweed, have not been kept by Khartoum so far.

"Only action not words can win the race against death in Darfur," he said.

'Civil war'

Some one million people have fled their homes and at least 10,000 have been killed in what the UN calls "the world's worst humanitarian crisis."

A rebellion broke out in Darfur early last year, when two groups took up arms, accusing the government of ignoring the region.

"In Darfur, it would be better to help the Sudanese get over the crisis so their country is pacified rather than sanctions which would push them back to their misdeeds of old," junior Foreign Minister Renaud Muselier told French radio.


France led opposition to US moves at the UN over Iraq. As was the case in Iraq, France also has significant oil interests in Sudan.

Mr Muselier also dismissed claims of "ethnic cleansing" or genocide in Darfur.

"I firmly believe it is a civil war and as they are little villages of 30, 40, 50, there is nothing easier than for a few armed horsemen to burn things down, to kill the men and drive out the women," he said.

Human rights activists say the Janjaweed are conducting a genocide against Darfur's black African population.

Those who have fled their homes say the Janjaweed ride on horses and camels into villages which have just been bombed by government aircraft, killing the men and raping the women.

Sudan denies backing the militia and, under strong international pressure, has promised to disarm them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3875277.stm

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Zimzum]

It shouldn't matter who sold who the guns. If they wanted guns that badly they could manufacture them. True, adding to the problem doesn't help. Its the person on the trigger that does the killing. We can't sell them the motive, just the tools.

[Psycho4Bud]

It shouldn't matter who sold who the guns. If they wanted guns that badly they could manufacture them. True, adding to the problem doesn't help. Its the person on the trigger that does the killing. We can't sell them the motive, just the tools.

But why did they sell the guns? They signed oil contracts in the troubled southern region.......it seems a quick fix of killing the people of this region was easier than sharing the wealth.

Wish I could find the thread.....I had one on this exact subject about a year ago or better. Spelled out French intentions pretty clearly.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Psycho4Bud]

"France's oil giant TotalFinaElf has enormous, but presently inaccessible, concession rights in southern Sudan," Reeves said in a editorial prior to the vote. "Perversely, upgrading Khartoum's human rights status makes it much more likely that the regime will be able to extend its scorched-earth tactics to 'secure' these concessions for TotalFinaElf."

Reeves charged that "other EU countries â?? Germany, Britain, Italy, Sweden â?? have also had their appetites whetted by Khartoum's relatively recent petro-wealth."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=32098

France has provided Khartoum with military intelligence for the prosecution of the jihad, while French and German helicopters have been used for ethnic cleansing in southern Sudan's oil fields. Further, their subversion does not stop there. In concert, the Franco-German contingent persuaded the United Nations Commission on Human Rights to censor any utilization of the word "slavery" from official documents on Sudan, favoring instead the terminology of "abduction".
http://www.iabolish.com/update/press-release.php?id=41

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Ozarks]

^^^
What do you mean America & Exxon Mobil isn't responsible for this, that can't be right ;)

[BlueCat]

You guys have got to stop looking at this like it is just America. Exxon Shell BP Dynacorp etc are not owned by just Americans...that is not what I am saying at all.

But why did they sell the guns? They signed oil contracts in the troubled southern region.......it seems a quick fix of killing the people of this region was easier than sharing the wealth.

Exactly Psycho killing the indigenous people is easier than taking care of them!! That is the point I am trying to make. The original question was why is nothing being done and this is the reason.

It does not matter French, US, Great Brits, It is still these *cough* NON corrupt governments that are selling weapons in regions of unrest not for humanitarian reasons like they want you to believe but to stake their claim in the resources and as the climate changes and the water dries up these indigenous people are moving onto lands that put them in conflict with governments and big oil. I am sorry but I think it is wrong to want to make the entire world over to look like the USA. So many people in this country think democracy means having a Wal-Mart and Mc Ds on every corner. I dont.



And the same people that think this is not happening also think there is no global warming. I just don't understand this kind of reasoning.

[BlueCat]

"France's oil giant TotalFinaElf has enormous, but presently inaccessible, concession rights in southern Sudan," Reeves said in a editorial prior to the vote. "Perversely, upgrading Khartoum's human rights status makes it much more likely that the regime will be able to extend its scorched-earth tactics to 'secure' these concessions for TotalFinaElf."

Reeves charged that "other EU countries â?? Germany, Britain, Italy, Sweden â?? have also had their appetites whetted by Khartoum's relatively recent petro-wealth."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=32098

France has provided Khartoum with military intelligence for the prosecution of the jihad, while French and German helicopters have been used for ethnic cleansing in southern Sudan's oil fields. Further, their subversion does not stop there. In concert, the Franco-German contingent persuaded the United Nations Commission on Human Rights to censor any utilization of the word "slavery" from official documents on Sudan, favoring instead the terminology of "abduction".
http://www.iabolish.com/update/press-release.php?id=41

Have a good one!:jointsmile:


OH well then if French and Germans are doing it then it must be OK. :rolleyes:

[psychocat]

It does not matter French, US, Great Brits, I am sorry but I think it is wrong to want to make the entire world over to look like the USA. So many people in this country think democracy means having a Wal-Mart and Mc Ds on every corner. I dont.


Gonna steal that last part for a sig for a while if that's ok.

Had to modify it a little since I don't live in the states.

[Psycho4Bud]

I am sorry but I think it is wrong to want to make the entire world over to look like the USA. So many people in this country think democracy means having a Wal-Mart and Mc Ds on every corner. I dont.
.

THIS is my point.......what does the USA and it's market place have to do with the French, once again, being envolved in a genocidal act in Africa? Rwanda, Sudan..........how the hell is the U.S. linked to this and now that it's done are we the "world police" as the left states over and over or should we have the French clean up their own toilet for once?

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Psycho4Bud]

LOL........new smilie for politics.

Have a good one!:Tomcat:

[Ozarks]

THIS is my point.......what does the USA and it's market place have to do with the French, once again, being envolved in a genocidal act in Africa? Rwanda, Sudan..........how the hell is the U.S. linked to this and now that it's done are we the "world police" as the left states over and over or should we have the French clean up their own toilet for once?

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

In a perfect world yes but, France isn't going to help in Sudan for same reason as Iraq, money, as soon we refused to "guarantee" the contracts they (France) signed with Saddam they pulled out. Never-mind that we couldn't "guarantee" that the new Iraq Government would honor those deals, even if we want too.
As soon as France figured out that we weren't installing a puppet Government that they could milk, they were gone.

In Sudan we should try and help those people even though it's not our doing.

All the "it's America's fault, corporate greed/conspiracy" Bla-bla-bla is just background noise.

I'm proud that America always tries to do the right thing, we're not always successful but we are committed to trying. There will always be people that can not be honest enough with themselves to admit all thats right with my country. .

I truly hope America's new UN Ambassador is as effective at putting a international coalition together as Bolton was, I think not, it put I will wait and see. I hope I'm wrong but without Bolton,I think Dufar is going to go from bad to worst.

[Psycho4Bud]

In a perfect world yes but, France isn't going to help in Sudan for same reason as Iraq, money, as soon we refused to "guarantee" the contracts they (France) signed with Saddam they pulled out. Never-mind that we couldn't "guarantee" that the new Iraq Government would honor those deals, even if we want too.
As soon as France figured out that we weren't installing a puppet Government that they could milk, they were gone.

In Sudan we should try and help those people even though it's not our doing.

All the "it's America's fault, corporate greed/conspiracy" Bla-bla-bla is just background noise.

I'm proud that America always tries to do the right thing, we're not always successful but we are committed to trying. There will always be people that can not be honest enough with themselves to admit all thats right with my country. .

I truly hope America's new UN Ambassador is as effective at putting a international coalition together as Bolton was, I think not, it put I will wait and see. I hope I'm wrong but without Bolton,I think Dufar is going to go from bad to worst.

If we do ANYTHING in Sudan it should only be from the air and sea.......France created the problem....let them send THEIR sons and daughters in to patrol the streets.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Ozarks]

If we do ANYTHING in Sudan it should only be from the air and sea


Agreed



.......France created the problem....let them send THEIR sons and daughters in to patrol the streets.

IMO all the "boots on the ground" should be from African Nations, for lots of reasons. I don't think France is capable of going in there as a neutral 3rd party, as you already posted they have to much financial interest.

I don't see France doing the right thing here.

[Zimzum]

It shouldn't just be a French thing to "clean up". Its easy for us to just keep pointing the finger at someone else until it gets pointed back at us. Global cooperation is greatly needed.

[BlueCat]

Ozark said:I'm proud that America always tries to do the right thing, we're not always successful but we are committed to trying. There will always be people that can not be honest enough with themselves to admit all thats right with my country. .

OMFG I give up. Yes it is all conspiracy. The world is beautiful just take the green pill and be happy in the Ozarks. I have lived there too BTW so I try to understand your line of thinking.

the fact that we sell 90% <-- of the arms means nothing. Maybe you can explain the US actions in El Salvador or Haiti. OR how about the arms sells in Nicaragua, explain that great feat of american moral servitude.

'THis is MY country too. I think my family has done a hell of a lot for this country, The problem is self centered people that think the country is all THEIRS and that America can do no wrong. (also, most these people have never done anything to serve their country except stick a flag and yellow ribbon on their SUV) ewww I feel safer already.
We are a growing nation and make mistakes like any other country.
To believe we can do no wrong is simply close minded and dangerous.

There are many many great nations out there the US is one of many not the one and only.

[BlueCat]

It shouldn't just be a French thing to "clean up". Its easy for us to just keep pointing the finger at someone else until it gets pointed back at us. Global cooperation is greatly needed.

EXCUSE ME:Personal thread hijack for a moment...:rasta:

Zim you and I seem to always be on the same wave length :D Feels nice.

Who is the man in your avatar? He looks so familiar but I can't place him..

Cat

[Psycho4Bud]

MY FINE FRIENDS FROM THE LEFT!

When we go into a place such as Afghanistan or Iraq to do the "right thing" the U.S. is accused of being an oil grubbing country with visions of Empires in mind.

Now in a situation that was created in Sudan by the French we are suppose to do the "right" thing?? Is this "having your cake and eating it too"? Shouldn't the world DEMAND that France cleans up her mess? WE had NO help in Iraq from France, Germany, etc... because of the situation. Well guess what, this isn't OUR situation created....why can't WE sit this one out for once? Hell, maybe the French could actually win a war.:D

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[BlueCat]

You will have to show me where any one has said going into Afganistan was wrong.

It was wrong to train Mujahadeen give them weapons and then leave them. It was wrong to CUT US troops in Afganistan and dilute our power there by "creating" the Iraq war. I have not heard any so called "lib" say it is wrong to be in Afganistan.

[BlueCat]

Still alienating the french I see Psycho :) while they are quite fun to pick on they do provide a lot of fodder. :D

I feel the problems in the world right now are going to be hard enough to solve and it will take all G8 nations.
After what Bush has done to our international relations we can't afford to alienate our allies not even the french ones :)

I have never said the US is all to blame but I am not going to point fingers at everyone else to make us look better that is just counter productive and I won't pretend we are shinning examples democracy because it simply isn't true.

[Zimzum]

MY FINE FRIENDS FROM THE LEFT!

When we go into a place such as Afghanistan or Iraq to do the "right thing" the U.S. is accused of being an oil grubbing country with visions of Empires in mind.



Thats what happens with "cowboy" diplomacy. We went into war with very little world wide support or care for there concerns. "Your with us or against us" apparently that speech there showed he could care less for support. US didn't listen to the UN inspectors in Iraq. We went into Iraq pounding our chests with pride, now were licking our wounds from bad intelligence and stubbornness to listen.


BlueCat my avatar is Serj from SOAD

[Psycho4Bud]

Thats what happens with "cowboy" diplomacy. We went into war with very little world wide support or care for there concerns. "Your with us or against us" apparently that speech there showed he could care less for support. US didn't listen to the UN inspectors in Iraq. We went into Iraq pounding our chests with pride, now were licking our wounds from bad intelligence and stubbornness to listen.


And which countries had "special interests" due to the food for oil program. Wonder why we could'nt get the extra support....;)

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Psycho4Bud]

Still alienating the french I see Psycho :) while they are quite fun to pick on they do provide a lot of fodder. :D

I feel the problems in the world right now are going to be hard enough to solve and it will take all G8 nations.
After what Bush has done to our international relations we can't afford to alienate our allies not even the french ones :)

Hell BlueCat.......you know I love the French Gov. and how they deal with matters. Lets see what a few others have to say:


France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes. Mark Twain

I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me. General George S. Patton

Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion. Norman Schwartzkopf

The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee. Regis Philbin

You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it. Sen. John McCain

You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French, people. Conan O'Brien

The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag. David Letterman

France was at the root on Rwanda, same with Sudan.........two genocidal acts in this century. Shouldn't we be getting at the "root" of the problem or at least be making THEM clean it up?

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[BlueCat]

Well Psycho as I said before ALL Governments are quilty....BUT I don't vote in France. I am interested in what I can change.

U.S. interest in Sudan

Sudan is the largest country in Africa in area. It is strategically located on the Red Sea, immediately south of Egypt, and borders on seven other African countries. It is about the size of Western Europe but has a population of only 35 million people.

Darfur is the western region of Sudan. It is the size of France, with a population of just 6 million.

Newly discovered resources have made Sudan of great interest to U.S. corporations. It is believed to have oil reserves rivaling those of Saudi Arabia. It has large deposits of natural gas. In addition, it has one of the three largest deposits of high-purity uranium in the world, along with the fourth-largest deposits of copper.

Unlike Saudi Arabia, however, the Sudanese government has retained its independence of Washington. Unable to control Sudanâ??s oil policy, the U.S. imperialist government has made every effort to stop its development of this valuable resource. China, on the other hand, has worked with Sudan in providing the technology for exploration, drilling, pumping and the building of a pipeline and buys much of Sudanâ??s oil.

U.S. policy revolves around shutting down the export of oil through sanctions and inflaming national and regional antagonisms. For over two decades U.S. imperialism supported a separatist movement in the south of Sudan, where oil was originally found. This long civil war drained the central governmentâ??s resources. When a peace agreement was finally negotiated, U.S. attention immediately switched to Darfur in western Sudan.

Recently, a similar agreement between the Sudanese government and rebel groups in Darfur was rejected by one of the groups, so the fighting continues. The U.S. poses as a neutral mediator and keeps pressing Khartoum for more concessions but â??through its closest African allies helped train the SLA and JEM Darfuri rebels that initiated Khartoumâ??s violent reaction.â?� (www.afrol.com)

Sudan has one of the most ethnically diverse populations in the world. Over 400 ethnic groups have their own languages or dialects. Arabic is the one common language. Greater Khartoum, the largest city in the country, has a population of about 6 million. Some 85 percent of the Sudanese population is involved in subsistence agriculture or raising livestock.

The U.S. corporate media is unanimous in simplistically describing the crisis in Darfur as atrocities committed by the Jan jawid militias, supported by the central government in Khartoum. This is described as an â??Arabâ?� assault on â??Africanâ?� people.

This is a total distortion of reality. As the Black Commentator, Oct. 27, 2004, points out: â??All parties involved in the Darfur conflictâ??whether they are referred to as â??Arabâ?? or as â??African,â?? are equally indigenous and equally Black. All are Muslim and all are local.â?� The whole population of Darfur speaks Arabic, along with many local dialects. All are Sunni Muslim.

Drought, famine and sanctions

The crisis in Darfur is rooted in intertribal fighting. A desperate struggle has developed over increasingly scarce water and grazing rights in a vast area of Northern Africa that has been hit hard by years of drought and growing famine.

Darfur has over 35 tribes and ethnic groups. About half the people are small subsistence farmers, the other half nomadic herders. For hundreds of years the nomadic population grazed their herds of cattle and camels over hundreds of miles of grassy lowlands. Farmers and herders shared wells. For over 5,000 years, this fertile land sustained civilizations in both western Dar fur and to the east, all along the Nile River.

Now, due to the drought and the encroaching great Sahara Desert, there isnâ??t enough grazing land or enough farmland in what could be the breadbasket of Africa. Irrigation and development of Sudanâ??s rich resources could solve many of these problems. U.S. sanctions and military intervention will solve none of them.

Many people, especially children, have died in Sudan of totally preventable and treatable diseases because of a U.S. cruise missile attack, ordered by President Bill Clinton on Aug. 20, 1998, on the El Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum. This plant, which had produced cheap medications for treating malaria and tuberculosis, provided 60 percent of the available medicine in Sudan.

[Psycho4Bud]

Well Psycho as I said before ALL Governments are quilty....BUT I don't vote in France. I am interested in what I can change.

U.S. interest in Sudan


Many people, especially children, have died in Sudan of totally preventable and treatable diseases because of a U.S. cruise missile attack, ordered by President Bill Clinton on Aug. 20, 1998, on the El Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum. This plant, which had produced cheap medications for treating malaria and tuberculosis, provided 60 percent of the available medicine in Sudan.

On August 20, 1998, the factory was destroyed in cruise missile strikes launched by the United States in retaliation for the August 7 truck bomb attacks on its embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya (see: 1998 U.S. embassy bombings). The administration of President Bill Clinton justified the attacks, dubbed Operation Infinite Reach, on the grounds that the al-Shifa plant was involved in producing chemical weapons and had ties with the violent Islamist al Qaeda group of Osama bin Laden, which was believed to be behind the embassy bombings. The August 20 U.S. action also hit al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan, to where bin Laden had moved following his May 1996 expulsion from Sudan.


The bombing of the al-Shifa factory resurfaced in the news in April, 2006 due to the firing of former CIA analyst Mary O'Neil McCarthy. McCarthy was against the bombing of the factory in 1998, a fact that was published in the New York Times soon after her arrest. However, despite the claims by the government of Sudan that the factory produced only pharmaceuticals, McCarthy came to the view the plant was used in chemical weapons development. Thomas Joscelyn quotes Daniel Benjamin, a former NSC staffer:

The report of the 9/11 Commission notes that the National Security staff reviewed the intelligence in April 2000 and concluded that the CIA's assessment of its intelligence on bin Laden and al-Shifa had been valid; the memo to Clinton on this was cosigned by Richard Clarke and Mary McCarthy, the NSC senior director for intelligence programs, who opposed the bombing of al-Shifa in 1998. The report also notes that in their testimony before the commission, Al Gore, Sandy Berger, George Tenet, and Richard Clarke all stood by the decision to bomb al-Shifa. [13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceutical_factory

Guess we could have let Chirac and friends just use chemical weapons on the southern folk..........

Ya know, I spent some jail time with a dude from Sudan....showed me the scars across his chest/stomach where he was ripped with a machine gun. Thats why his folks shipped him to the U.S. He told me that this has been an ongoing conflict between the tribes for over 40 years now. A vicious cycle as he put it........the parents ship their kids off to the U.S./Europe for a better life.......the kids grow, get educated, make money, ship funds to home to help their families, then the familily/tribe uses the cash to buy more guns to kill the opposing tribe.

Between that and the French connection.......it would be best for us just to let Europe/FRANCE deal with this one. We could do some food drops though.....I was all for the air support.:D

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[BlueCat]

The fighting will stop as soon as they decide who will take possession of the oil and control of the water.

It has been happening for 40 years because they have had a drought that long.

The fighting will stop when the western world stops fueling the conflict.

You are stepping all around the fact that some very large corporations from several countries have an interest in this region and they have an interest in who wins certain conflicts. Surely you believe that governments are capable of setting up puppet governments and swaying votes. Do you think the corporations are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the dust to settle?

[BlueCat]

WHen the gulf war ended it was the best extended commercial an arms salesman could ask for. some arms manufacturers incorporated bombing videos into their promotional materials.) Countries were clamoring for the high-tech weapons that made for such good TV.

So, once elected, Bill Clinton took advantage of the opportunity. Rather than insert human-rights concerns into the arms-sales equation, as did his Democratic predecessor President Carter, Clinton decided to aggressively continue the sales policies of President Bush, himself no slouch when it came to selling U.S. arms.

Early on, Clinton required our diplomats to shill for arms merchants to their host countries. The results were immediate: During Clinton's first year in office, U.S. arms sales more than doubled. From 1993 to 1997, the U.S. government sold, approved, or gave away $190 billion in weapons to virtually every nation on earth.

America's top weapons customers during the Clinton years, tallying their total 1993-97 purchases through both the Pentagon (so-called "Foreign Military Sales," or FMS) and U.S. manufacturers ("Direct Commercial Sales," or DCS).

What we found is that while the U.S. obviously sells weapons to NATO countries and relatively democratic allies like Japan and South Korea, it also has a nasty habit of arming both sides in a conflict, as well as countries with blighted democracy or human-rights records, like Indonesia, Colombia, and Saudi Arabia.

How can you see nothing wrong with this?
I will never vote for a Clinton.

[Psycho4Bud]

You are stepping all around the fact that some very large corporations from several countries have an interest in this region and they have an interest in who wins certain conflicts. Surely you believe that governments are capable of setting up puppet governments and swaying votes. Do you think the corporations are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the dust to settle?

I do believe that the corporate front will lobby for their own interests but it's ultimately the Governments decision; it also seems to me that you are doing a lil' side stepping of your own.

Since WW2 and the cooperation of France turning Jews over to the Germans, then their actions in Algeria, Rwanda, and Sudan. Who has more of a fingerprint on genocide in the Western World? They would even overlook the extermination of Kurds and Shi-ites as long as the food for oil was lining their lil' pockets.

THEN when shit hits the fan it's up to Uncle Sam to clean up the mess. Like Vietnam.....another French fuck-up that we took over. We don't need another one.......let FRANCE clean up Sudan.

Nice to have ya back........:joint1:

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Psycho4Bud]

WHen the gulf war ended it was the best extended commercial an arms salesman could ask for. some arms manufacturers incorporated bombing videos into their promotional materials.) Countries were clamoring for the high-tech weapons that made for such good TV.

So, once elected, Bill Clinton took advantage of the opportunity. Rather than insert human-rights concerns into the arms-sales equation, as did his Democratic predecessor President Carter, Clinton decided to aggressively continue the sales policies of President Bush, himself no slouch when it came to selling U.S. arms.

LMAO! Mr. Peanut was the one who cut the military budget to a point that were close to being a super power joke! Reagon rectified that one. Mr. Peanut also put together the deal that put nuclear technology in the hands of the N. Koreans.........

Sorry, don't care much for Mr. Peanut either....is he of French ancestory?:blueknife:

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[BlueCat]

Il est bon d'être ici mon ami. :)

[Ozarks]

Ozark said:I'm proud that America always tries to do the right thing, we're not always successful but we are committed to trying. There will always be people that can not be honest enough with themselves to admit all thats right with my country. .

OMFG I give up. Yes it is all conspiracy. The world is beautiful just take the green pill and be happy in the Ozarks. I have lived there too BTW so I try to understand your line of thinking.

I didn't say the world was Beautiful, did I ?





the fact that we sell 90% <-- of the arms means nothing. Maybe you can explain the US actions in El Salvador or Haiti. OR how about the arms sells in Nicaragua, explain that great feat of American moral servitude.


Please put down the clicker and stop changing the channel, we're talking about Sudan "American moral servitude" :D



'THis is MY country too. I think my family has done a hell of a lot for this country,

Again,I never said it wasn't, I'm sure your family has.




The problem is self centered people that think the country is all THEIRS and that America can do no wrong.

Again I never said it was (all/only) my country, again I never said America does no wrong, as a matter I said America "tries" to do the right thing.






We are a growing nation and make mistakes like any other country.
To believe we can do no wrong is simply close minded and dangerous.

There are many many great nations out there the US is one of many not the one and only.
Again, no one any where in this thread ever said different

I said "I was proud to be an American" and proud that "my country tries to do the right thing" and you respond with negatives, lets be honest here, reading someone else saying something positive about the USA hit a nerve with you. I believe the expression was OMFG ?

You have proven me right in at least one statement:


"There will always be people that can not be honest enough with themselves to admit all thats right with my country."

[BlueCat]

No Ozark that wasn't what struck a nerve but if you'd like a struck nerve review: The Muslim (Arab) Government in Katun is not killing the Christian (black African) minority in Darfur with American weapons.


That is not true. You don't know that. They are killing them with American weapons we have been selling weapons to them for quite some time. It is just easier to believe that it is not happening.

Next was this statement: And it's going to continue until people have non-corrupt Governments that at least acknowledge the human being as such, and have a functioning economies.

We ARE corrupt, there are no non corrupt governments. It is a beautiful idealogical thought and it would be great if it worked that way. It doesn't. OH then it was also the rude conspiracy theory crack.

Corporate control and arm sells ARE NOT conspiracy theories. Anything anyone does not know about seems to be labeledl conspiracy now a days.

Or how about this brilliant Orwellian thought: yes, companies defend their interests/investments just like people do. Who would have thought that the people who run them big bad evil corporations would let human emotion enter into their judgments on business matters.

No one I know behaves like this. Maybe you have a habit of making your neighbors fight and kill each other so you can buy their houses. I don't know.

You might want to read up on the Coca Cola plant in Columbia too. They are doing such fine humanitarian things these days.

http://www.killercoke.org/

then you said: All the "it's America's fault, corporate greed/conspiracy" Bla-bla-bla is just background noise.

I never said it was all America's fault a fact I have repeated more than once and I don't like having my opinion dismissed as background noise.

next you said: I'm proud that America always tries to do the right thing, we're not always successful but we are committed to trying. There will always be people that can not be honest enough with themselves to admit all that's right with my country. .

America does not always try to do the right thing. show me. Make me a list. what did they do right in El Salvador, anywhere in Central America or even south America. What have they done right in Iraq?

NO YOU are not committed to doing anything. The young people of the arms forces are the ones that are committed. Have you or your children served their country? You are so ready to put "boots on the ground" in Africa are you or your children prepared to go?

BTW I am a very honest person I know exactly what is right with my country its called the Constitution it sure as hell isn't Michael Bolton or any other member of the bush administration.
What's right with my country? Oh well I don't know... I think the elections went rather well don't you?

I don't want to get in a flaming war with you. You have your opinion and I have mine.

"Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it." Flannery O'Connor

[greenmanondeck]

i am a 16 year old black person that smokes weed all day who is going to listen to me

[BlueCat]

i am a 16 year old black person that smokes weed all day who is going to listen to me

Smart thinking. :D

[BlueCat]

Serj from SOAD?! I thought he had long hair? I like it short. He is so good looking. *sigh*

[Ozarks]

No Ozark that wasn't what struck a nerve but if you'd like a struck nerve review: The Muslim (Arab) Government in Katun is not killing the Christian (black African) minority in Darfur with American weapons.


That is not true. You don't know that. They are killing them with American weapons we have been selling weapons to them for quite some time. It is just easier to believe that it is not happening.


This is true, the Sudan Government issues Russian made AK-47 rifles, 7.62 Chinese ammo and Chinese made "knock offs" of the BHP Pistol



Next was this statement: And it's going to continue until people have non-corrupt Governments that at least acknowledge the human being as such, and have a functioning economies.

We ARE corrupt, there are no non corrupt governments. It is a beautiful idealogical thought and it would be great if it worked that way. It doesn't. OH then it was also the rude conspiracy theory crack.

Lack of perfection is a reality on this planet, if you can not accept that fact you are going to be greatly disappointed thru live. The difference in America is "if" you get caught you will be held accountable, unlike the majority of the rest of the world, Thats one thing America does right.




Corporate control and arm sells ARE NOT conspiracy theories. Anything anyone does not know about seems to be labeled conspiracy now a days.

If you really think Corporations "control" Government arms sales, How come Congress votes "no" on a large percentage of the proposed sales ? If they can't buy off Congress they can't have much control.





Or how about this brilliant Orwellian thought: yes, companies defend their interests/investments just like people do. Who would have thought that the people who run them big bad evil corporations would let human emotion enter into their judgments on business matters.

No one I know behaves like this. Maybe you have a habit of making your neighbors fight and kill each other so you can buy their houses. I don't know.


You protect your interests everyday, by the decisions you make just like business, thats what I meant. Someday I going meet someone on the INTERNET who has actually read 1984.



You might want to read up on the Coca Cola plant in Columbia too. They are doing such fine humanitarian things these days.

http://www.killercoke.org/

Drink Pepsi help save the world.





then you said: All the "it's America's fault, corporate greed/conspiracy" Bla-bla-bla is just background noise.

I never said it was all America's fault a fact I have repeated more than once and I don't like having my opinion dismissed as background noise.

That was generalization aimed at no one person, you choose to put yourself on that list.




next you said: I'm proud that America always tries to do the right thing, we're not always successful but we are committed to trying. There will always be people that can not be honest enough with themselves to admit all that's right with my country. .

America does not always try to do the right thing. show me. Make me a list. what did they do right in El Salvador, anywhere in Central America or even south America. What have they done right in Iraq?

How about

BILLIONS we send to Africa for Aids
BILLIONS sent world wide to fight hunger,poverty and sickness
BILLIONS given to Governments to help their people and they stand up and talk bad about us and we keep on "trying" to do the right thing.
There was a Tsunami a couple years back we gave BILLIONS & flew our choppers to deliver it.
We are always at the head of line to try and do the right thing.

No point beating a dead horse, I can't believe you asked such dumb question but I won't beat you over the head with it to hard:p


In Iraq we are "trying" to do the right thing, and we're in a mess.



NO YOU are not committed to doing anything. The young people of the arms forces are the ones that are committed. Have you or your children served their country? You are so ready to put "boots on the ground" in Africa are you or your children prepared to go?

I don't want to debate my honesty,so let's just leave this at, Thank-you for all your family has done.





BTW I am a very honest person I know exactly what is right with my country its called the Constitution it sure as hell isn't Michael Bolton or any other member of the bush administration.

Your judgment is so blinded by partisan hate that a good man (Bolton) can't help. Maybe someday you'll love the people of Darfur more than you Hate Bush.



What's right with my country? Oh well I don't know... I think the elections went rather well don't you?

For me great, I make money either way. For the people of Darfur our election results were their death sentence.



I don't want to get in a flaming war with you. You have your opinion and I have mine.


I'm not "flaming" you, we're debating, toughen up, listen up. I'm not going to hurt you :D

[BlueCat]

Vast government subsidies are sought after in the pursuit of arms trading.

US and European corporations receive enormous tax breaks and even lend money to other countries to purchase weapons from them. Therefore tax payers from these countries end up often unknowingly subsidizing arms sales.

While there are countless examples, a recent one that made a few news headlines was how Lockheed managed to get US subsidies to help sell a lot of fighter planes to Poland at the end of 2002/beginning of 2003. This was described as the biggest deal ever in Europe at that time.

U.S. arms corporations assiduously promote exports to maintain their profits. (Publicly, of course, they talk about the need to maintain jobs and the "defense industrial base.") These corporations are among the largest in the world, and they have tremendous political influence. Arms industry executives sit on federal advisory commissions at the Commerce, Defense and State Departments dealing with arms export policy issues, ensuring that their preferences are well known to administration policymakers. In addition, the industry provides hundreds of thousands of dollars annually to Congressional campaigns, ensuring that their lobbyists have access to Members of the House and Senate. They also pump cash into Presidential campaigns (usually to both sides, just to be safe), ensuring access at the very highest levels.

Using this clout, arms exporters have arranged it so that the American public pays $6-7 billion annually to market and finance sales of their product. On top of that, the public bears the costs of researching and developing the weapons in the first place. One of the corporate lobbyists' top priorities in past years was to have Congress repeal a statute which mandated that foreign customers be charged a fee to refund U.S. taxpayers for some of the R&D costs. The arms industry claimed that this feeâ??which has returned several hundred million dollars annually to the Treasuryâ??raises the price of the weapons and makes them less competitive.

The Clinton administration and the Republican 104th Congress both supported the repeal of this "recoupment" fee. The ASM Project fostered citizen and Congressional opposition to this plan by publicizing it widely through the media. However, in 1996, Congress effectively abolished the requirement that Foreign Military Sales include "recoupment fees" on weapons systems being exported around the world. More information on Recoupment.

The arms industry lobby continues to press for new financing (or easing of the regulations for current financing programs) to underwrite arms sales. Information we obtained from the Pentagon allowed us to expose the massive amount of outstanding military loans for which the U.S. government is liable, and the amount of these loans which are currently in default. More information on the recently created Defense Export Loan Guarantee program.

Industry has (effectively, thus far) sought to paint these subsidies as a matter of national security: If taxpayers don't subsidize arms sales, the industry might lose a deal to a foreign competitor; this would lead to the shutdown of a production line, thereby endangering America's very security. Never explained is why America needs to maintain surplus arms production lines in the first place. (If U.S. forces were still buying the weapon system, loss of foreign sales would not affect the continuation of the production line.)

[BlueCat]

What is it you like about Bolton? I am willing to listen I never saw him as appropriate for the job.

toughen up, listen up. I'm not going to hurt you
Oh yeah I'm afraid thats it. :rolleyes:

you never answered. Have you served in the military? How is answering that question debating your honesty? It is a fair question because everyone one I meet that supports the war either is not willing to serve or does not have a family member serving. SO I always ask. Why do you have a problem with answering?

You should not be willing to put other people children in harms way and not your own.

[Psycho4Bud]

You should not be willing to put other people children in harms way and not your own.

You know my son served and if he had to go back because of "issues" I sure the hell wouldn't be impressed if it were Somalia. It's one thing to take care of matters that need to be dealt with as apposed to those created by another "Western" country. Somalia is going to be a REAL shithole when/if they send troops.

I find it ironic that people want Rumsfeld held accountable in front of a world court in Germany for acts at Abu Ghraib prison and other U.S.-run facilities but yet NOBODY calls for any French official for the actions in Algeria, Rwanda, and Sudan. A handfull of tortured victims VS. 800,000 dead Rwandans. UNREAL!

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[BlueCat]

I don't want my son there either! No way.

I think anyone guilty of war crimes should be help accountable in the World court including the French.

[Ozarks]

What is it you like about Bolton?



I like Bolton Because he actually produced positive results and moved the program forward on 3 very important issues




Have you served in the military? How is answering that question debating your honesty?


I didn't want to debate me but yes I have served in the military




It is a fair question


No its not, it the latest game by the left to silence the free speech rights of anyone they disagree with. I have never been on the Space Shuttle, but I have the RIGHT to an opinion about it.



because everyone one I meet that supports the war either is not willing to serve or does not have a family member serving. SO I always ask. Why do you have a problem with answering?

It is the Right of every American to support/oppose the war, it is their duty as citizens to be informed. The idea that any American can't support/oppose the war unless they/family served is a insulting dodge to the free speech rights of ALL Americans and a personal insult to EVERY veteran who served in defense of America and her Constitutional principles, by the left who only supports the 1A when they are being told what they want to hear.



You should not be willing to put other people children in harms way and not your own.

More nonsense from the left, free Americans can't have voice an opinion until they pass a test or meet some requirement,and only then can they exercise their rights, only then does their view count.

You claimed in a previous post to "support" the Constitution, supporting it sometimes for some people isn't what its about.

Next time you read it, try to remember its talking about ALL Americans.

[BlueCat]

it seems any question that does not set right with you is a PLOY from the left. Fuck the left right shit. We are Americans first. I am not left or right. I am a mom caught in the middle, YOu can support any war you want just don't start talking about sending my kid to anymore wars so you can feel "like you are doing your patriotic duty.

It is very understandable not to trust ANYONE that is not willing to put themselves in the same situations you want to put our troops in. Its YOUR right to wage war with other people children?

No you haven't been on a space shuttle but last time I checked 20 year old kids were not getting their legs blown off riding the space shuttle.

If you want to debate war and not get personal don't talk to me. It is personal for me. I live it every time the phone rings.

Heres the education I got from my last call: You want to know what the medics call the brain matter that is stuck on their shoes "OIF". damn I got OIF all over my friends cd player and it stinks. SO I ask what the heck is that? It stands for Operation IRAQI freedom. Just lovely, brain matter and bone is operation iraqi freedom and it is a common term they use everyday. Imagine being covered in blood and shit so much it has a vernacular expression.

I have very little to say to arm chair soldiers. Sure it is your right to vote but I think you'd give that vote a lot of thought if it was YOUR kid.

Now you are talking about boots on the ground in the Sudan? DO you think we could finish the Iraqi war 1st?

It sickens me how you people feed on war to make yourselves feel like you are doing something good and then call it an American right. Honestly do you have kids? What are their ages oh thats right that is PERSONAL we have to keep this war at a distance wouldn't want to get personal wouldn't want to attach REAL faces.

I really have nothing else to "debate" with you. We are never going to agree on anything

[Ozarks]

it seems any question that does not set right with you is a PLOY from the left. Fuck the left right shit. We are Americans first. I am not left or right. I am a mom caught in the middle, YOu can support any war you want just don't start talking about sending my kid to anymore wars so you can feel "like you are doing your patriotic duty.


Your "kid" volunteered just like both of mine.


It is very understandable not to trust ANYONE that is not willing to put themselves in the same situations you want to put our troops in. Its YOUR right to wage war with other people children?

I will try one more time it's EVERYBODY'S right to have an opinion even if their Kids aren't over there.




If you want to debate war and not get personal don't talk to me. It is personal for me. I live it every time the phone rings.


I hope you don't share that with your son, he has enough to worry about. Knowing this mom can't handle it, is only 1 more thing to take his off whats important,staying alive, and doing the job.




Heres the education I got from my last call: You want to know what the medics call the brain matter that is stuck on their shoes "OIF". damn I got OIF all over my friends cd player and it stinks. SO I ask what the heck is that? It stands for Operation IRAQI freedom. Just lovely, brain matter and bone is operation iraqi freedom and it is a common term they use everyday. Imagine being covered in blood and shit so much it has a vernacular expression.

I don't have to imagine to hard



I have very little to say to arm chair soldiers. Sure it is your right to vote but I think you'd give that vote a lot of thought if it was YOUR kid.

again I tried to avoid this because it wasn't germane to "our" discussion but it is my kids, and me before that.



Now you are talking about boots on the ground in the Sudan? DO you think we could finish the Iraqi war 1st?

We need to re-read my post about "boots on the ground" I think you are a little confused.




It sickens me how you people feed on war to make yourselves feel like you are doing something good and then call it an American right. Honestly do you have kids? What are their ages oh thats right that is PERSONAL we have to keep this war at a distance wouldn't want to get personal wouldn't want to attach REAL faces.

Voicing your option is an American right, one worth defending at any time.
It's personal to me.




We are never going to agree on anything

Yes we are, it is my sincerest hope that your son returns to you safely.:)

[BlueCat]

well thanks. I hope they all come home safely.

One question: we were discussing this on the military moms site:
When ever a comment is made on the pure shit that our guys are going though someone else (usually someone with no family in the military) makes the comment Well he volunteered or he enlisted.

THe statement makes no sense. SO I guess that means it is ok for our sons to be killed or maimed because they enlisted they deserve to get their legs blown off? No one knows or can prepare for what they are seeing over there. I guess it is more noble to wait until the country is attacked and then wait again while the goverment re instates a draft...thats going to work real well.
They enlist because they trusted the country and our government NOT TO LIE to them. Volunteering to serve is an honorable thing it should not be used as a way to excuse what is happening to our guys today.

IF you really do have children in this war AND they are down range then I really really don't understand your opinions but that is fine. I never said you could not have an opinion what I said was I don't have to agree nor accept your opinion.

We are BOTH here on the cannabis site so that much we have in common.
So pass the PEACE pipe. :) maybe it will work magic.

[psychocat]

All I have to say is
War is a very profitable business for the western world and as long as the west keeps backing sides in the rest of the world they will always have customers for their advanced "defense" systems.

By keeping the developing countries at each others throats and stirring shit up in foreign climes the west makes sure that they don't develop enough to threaten the wests financial grip on the world.

That is why this shit is happening .


PS I love the Goering quote

[BlueCat]

Thanks Psychocat I agree, years ago I starting reading about arms sells and corporate lobby involvement and I have been following it ever since.

War is big business. Do you read CorpWatch? Its a great site. :)

http://www.corpwatch.org/

[Ozarks]

well thanks. I hope they all come home safely.

One question: we were discussing this on the military moms site:
When ever a comment is made on the pure shit that our guys are going though someone else (usually someone with no family in the military) makes the comment Well he volunteered or he enlisted.

The statement makes no sense. SO I guess that means it is OK for our sons to be killed or maimed because they enlisted they deserve to get their legs blown off? No one knows or can prepare for what they are seeing over there. I guess it is more noble to wait until the country is attacked and then wait again while the government re instates a draft...thats going to work real well.
They enlist because they trusted the country and our government NOT TO LIE to them. Volunteering to serve is an honorable thing it should not be used as a way to excuse what is happening to our guys today.

IF you really do have children in this war AND they are down range then I really really don't understand your opinions but that is fine. I never said you could not have an opinion what I said was I don't have to agree nor accept your opinion.

We are BOTH here on the cannabis site so that much we have in common.
So pass the PEACE pipe. :) maybe it will work magic.


I say that because both of mine knew exactly what they were doing. Against my advice they both left collage, I told them both this mess would be going on for decades and it would still be here after they graduated. It looks like I was right.



the country and our government NOT TO LIE to them.


I don't believe they see that way, if you are talking WMD's, the solders & parents I talk to think it was gross incompetence, on a world wide scale 15-20 countries Intelligence services were telling OUR Intel that their Intel was the same. I'm not making excuses or trying to justify it, but thats the truth. The voices telling Bush there was no MD were a very small minority in 2002.

When you go down the Government lie/conspiracy road the evidence isn't there, on WMD was a "lie". As a matter of fact I have never heard any solder say the Government "lied" to them about anything. The only people I hear solders call liars is recruiters.

When I hear from my son, him and his over there think they be successful in the end. Given time, they seem almost has worried about the people back home bailing out as they do what they're facing. I tell him to focus on staying alive and doing the job.

We are going to have troops in Iraq for years and years to come (regardless of which party is in charge) Unfortunately I think I am going to be right and he doesn't believe me, again



We are BOTH here on the cannabis site so that much we have in common.
So pass the PEACE pipe. :) maybe it will work magic.


I quit toking when the kids came along, I only post in the "politics" section, I enjoy having to defend what and why I believe something.

I will gladly make "peace" with you, I was only debating and exchanging ideas, if I offended you I'm sorry I saw nothing between us as personal.

[medicinal]

I will gladly make "peace" with you, I was only debating and exchanging ideas, if I offended you I'm sorry I saw nothing between us as personal. I offer you the same cordiality!

[BlueCat]

My son seems to worry the most about them pulling out and leaving people there. You know how they are talking about having them go out with the Iraqi police and want to pull a large group of soldiers out? That would be such a big mistake. It is such a mess. You know I can't help but have distain for anybody in the Bush administration because I blame this horrible mess on them. The way it stands now if we leave, soldiers die and if we stay they die. We never should have gone there in the first place.

My son use to talk about staying the course and making it work too. I have never supported the war so I am his pinko commie mom :D
He doesn't say any of that now though, and most of the medical people are now pinko commies too they have had enough and feel they were decieved.
He is not fighting though and he works between both places so he sees both sets of casualties maybe that is why it sounds worse.

I think different military groups see it differently. It makes sense that the Medical people are seeing the more of the result of fighting.
Maybe the ground troops are seeing a different picture. Except he talks to a lot of injured guys and they are not saying things are going well either.



All I know is I wish it was over and he was home for Christmas. This is Christmas number 2 for me. How about you? Wouldn't it be nice if war took a break for the holidays? :)

[psychocat]

Anyone who advocates war should read this.

http://christmasspirit.wordpress.com/2006/10/17/letter-documenting-historic-%E2%80%98wwi-christmas-truce-football-match%E2%80%99-found/

I found it to be very touching and I'm a cold hearted mofo.

[Breukelen advocaat]

All I know is I wish it was over and he was home for Christmas. This is Christmas number 2 for me. How about you? Wouldn't it be nice if war took a break for the holidays? :)

George Washington beat the English, and their Germans soldiers known as "Hessians", at Trenton on Xmas day because the enemy troops let their guard down.

Washington, along with many other Founding Fathers, was a Deist - and they weren't into Christianity :D

Best of luck for your son. I hope he's safe and home ASAP.

http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Smith/smith33.html

http://www.deism.com/washington.htm

General George Washington crossing the Delaware at the
Battle of Trenton on Christmas night 1776 by Emmanuel Leutze

[BlueCat]

Thanks Breukelen....:) Hey do you really read Nietzsche? He was really a bad ass wasn't he?:D :D I agreed with a lot of his writings "Untimely Meditations" and "All too Human" are my favorites. I disagree with the "Antichrist" essay though. I think religion is a necessity for the world. I agree it has caused a lot of heart ache but at the same time it gives people hope and is a coping mechanism for those that need it in really difficult times. Without it many people would have abandoned hope, like the Jewish people and all they endured. It was their religious convictions that helped them to cope. That is why I respect the religious beliefs of others even though I am agnostic. Also I see how some people behave in the name of God and shutter to think how they would behave if they believed there was no judgment day. At the same time it is rather amusing that there are more Christians in prison than atheist yet atheist are suppose to be the ungodly sinning heathen monsters. :D

As far as the founding fathers I agree with you. It amazes me how many people talk about our nation's founders and how religious they were when it is not true. How many times have you heard the One nation under God statement? The founding fathers had the wisdom to know the importance of the separation of church and state. Jefferson even had all references to Christ's miracles removed from his bible and Franklin said church was just plain boring.

[BlueCat]

Anyone who advocates war should read this.

http://christmasspirit.wordpress.com/2006/10/17/letter-documenting-historic-%E2%80%98wwi-christmas-truce-football-match%E2%80%99-found/

I found it to be very touching and I'm a cold hearted mofo.

Thanks for this psychocat I enjoyed reading it. :)

[Breukelen advocaat]

Thanks Breukelen....:) Hey do you really read Nietzsche? He was really a bad ass wasn't he?:D :D I agreed with a lot of his writings "Untimely Meditations" and "All too Human" are my favorites. I disagree with the "Antichrist" essay though. I think religion is a necessity for the world. I agree it has caused a lot of heart ache but at the same time it gives people hope and is a coping mechanism for those that need it in really difficult times. Without it many people would have abandoned hope, like the Jewish people and all they endured. It was their religious convictions that helped them to cope. That is why I respect the religious beliefs of others even though I am agnostic. Also I see how some people behave in the name of God and shutter to think how they would behave if they believed there was no judgment day. At the same time it is rather amusing that there are more Christians in prison than atheist yet atheist are suppose to be the ungodly sinning heathen monsters. :D

As far as the founding fathers I agree with you. It amazes me how many people talk about our nation's founders and how religious they were when it is not true. How many times have you heard the One nation under God statement? The founding fathers had the wisdom to know the importance of the separation of church and state. Jefferson even had all references to Christ's miracles removed from his bible and Franklin said church was just plain boring.


Hi BlueCat,

Yes, I've read most of his stuff, and he's a great thinker and writer, but I have trouble with his theory of eternal recurrence. That's the thing to say when you want to impress philosophy majors, profs, etc., lol. :cool:

As far as his views on religion, he said in one of his writings that you have to really have been hurt by it to feel the way he did. I'd have to agree with that. As you probably know, his father was a minister, and he came from a long line of clergymen.