New Bubbler Grow Coming Soon - Input Welcome!

[mackSwell]

'Tis the season to place seed orders - (fa la la la la...)

US mail is so very busy between now and Dec. 20th that I've found it an excellent time to order items you want to keep under the radar. Of course there's an increased chance of packages being lost or delayed as well, but if you're primary concern is detection, order now!

I have some promising Spice of Life/DJ Short "Sweet Tooth #1.1" seeds on order from Hemp Depot. These are a special release cross between SoL's Sweet Pink Grapefruit and DJ's Blueberry. I love it when we all work together!

I've got a new bubbler hydro system in the works. 4 plant. I use 1 clamp lamp with reflector per plant. I start with floros and switch to clear incandescents or MH along the way. This allows for individual attention to each plant's needs, and helps to keep them compact, as each has it's own light directly aimed at it. It's also pretty damned cheap!

I have a nice closet prepped... White walls, about 4' wide, 3' deep, 8' high. Grounded timer with a power strip attached, lights and fan. Air pump goes in a second socket.

I know that A + B nutes are in favor, but to start off, I'm going to give an all-in-one a whirl: Dyna-Gro. I've seen others successful results with this product (In fact, I think someone used it who posted a journal on here? I'll have to check and link if I find it).

I may still to a test-run with baggie seeds, now germinating between paper towels in a Jiffy Propagator (lid lined with foil to keep dark), sitting on a heating pad.

Any input is welcome, and once I have things rolling (well, not rolling... oh, you know) I'll get some pix up.

Think Green!

[G 13]

WHAT ARE THE PRICES

[mackSwell]

*blink, blink*
:confused:

I'm not selling anything... I am simply suggesting that this is a good time to place orders for seeds and such and have them go unnoticed.

If you're looking for seeds, I like Hemp Depot. Prices range from about $30/10 seeds on up to about $365/10.

If you're looking for a hydro system, try eBay - You can get a decent bubbler system for under $40.

If you're looking for weed, grow your own, Brother! *wink*

[Perp]

Never, ever use incandescant bulbs for growing plants. Use a CFL instead. I don't know maybe you made a typing mistake but incandescants suck for growing plants and will NOT ever work. Besides, CFL are even cheaper in the long run that incandescants so why would anyone in their right mind want to use them.

[MisterE]

4 plants in one container you mean? Hope it's a big one :)

I think the idea of the 1 clamp lamp CFL per plant is a decent one. If I'd have a couple of those I'd have used them instead of my old 4 ft shop light buring 80 watts and only a fraction of it hitting my 2 lil plants.

I believe what I'll wind up doing is putting them under HPS with hortilux (increased blue spectrum) light after another week or so.

[mackSwell]

MisterE-

*chuckle* Yep, it's a 4-hole bubbler tub, 10 gallon resevoir.

(see photo)

I'd love to hear an update on how your lighting works out - Experience beats all. *grin*

.................................................. ....................................

Perp -

I have had success in the past with incandescents during the flowering phase. At that point, the plants need red & far red light, and CFLs do provide some, but not as much. Hell, even good ol' Mr. Sunshine doesn't provide as much red as incandescents do!

(see photo)

CFLs are great for veg - They provide much blue and green spectrum, blue being what plants need most in veg. For flowering, I usually rotate the CFLs and the incandescents to provide a close-to-full-spectrum. I definitely give them more incandescent though - I've found that giving them lots of CFL in flower adds to their sprawling growth more than to their bud size. Your buds want lots of that red toward the end...

But perhaps I'll experiment with this batch since each plant has its own lamp. I could leave one on CFL throughout, and show y'all pix of the difference, if any. Test out that "anyone in their right mind" theory of yours. *smirk*

[mackSwell]

On Dyna-Gro:

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?p=478337&highlight=dyna-gro#post478337

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?p=276875&highlight=dyna-gro#post276875


On Clamp Lamps:


http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/12-35-clamp-lights/clamp-light-85--656910.aspx

[mackSwell]

On light waves favored during flowering (7th paragraph):

http://www.rexresearch.com/hhusb/hh4bot.htm#HH48

[mackSwell]

More on favored flowering wavelenghts (under HPS Light):

http://www.bestgrowlights.com/site/403863/page/69077


Incandescents provide that red & far red that you'd get from HPS, but without as much heat and at a lower cost (bulb and electricity).

[mackSwell]

FYI - My whole set-up* cost about $125, including:

~4 plant tub
~net pots
~rockwool
~nutes
~air pump
~air stones & line
~Hydrotron
~8 oz. Dyna-Gro nutrients

(all of the above in one kit for $37 less S&H)

~pH up & down (though you can skimp here and use distilled white vinegar and baking soda
~pH test kit
~4 clamp lamps
~4 CFLs
~4 clear incandescents (get the appliance bulbs)
~grounded timer
~power strip w/ 8' cord
~2 6" fans

*Seeds & closet not included.


My closet is in a bathroom with its own vent, so I shouldn't need an additional one. I had a few of these items already (fans, timer, power strip, extra rockwool), and I may need to get an ionizer if things get smelly, but all-in-all, it's a good, budget start for anyone looking to join the growers!

[JackdaWack]

i would stay away from ebay

[mackSwell]

Because... ?

If your thoughts are legal worries, I'm thinking that purchasing a hydro system or parts or pH stuff or nutes are not an indication of growing cannabis. For instance, I myself am only growing tomatoes, so any items I ordered from hardware stores, etc. are solely for legal purposes.

Otherwise, what reason(s) to avoid?

I get kick-ass, hard-to-find comics from eBay...

[Perp]

Perp -

I have had success in the past with incandescents during the flowering phase. At that point, the plants need red & far red light, and CFLs do provide some, but not as much. Hell, even good ol' Mr. Sunshine doesn't provide as much red as incandescents do!

Are you saying here that incandescents are better than the sun for flowering?


But perhaps I'll experiment with this batch since each plant has its own lamp. I could leave one on CFL throughout, and show y'all pix of the difference, if any. Test out that "anyone in their right mind" theory of yours. *smirk*

Please, do the experiment. Of all the years I've grown and hung around message boards like this one you the first and only person who has championed the use of incandescents. So what if they have "lots of that red", if you want red get a 150W HPS. Its like running 2.5 60W incandescents and you'll get 10 times more bud. Your first crop will pay for the light 5 times over at least. I'm sorry, dude, but IMO you're shooting yourself in the foot.

But, don't take my word for it. From the Marijuana Growers' Handbook (emphasis mine):


Cultivators rarely use incandescent or quartz halogen lights. They convert only about 10% of the energy they use to light and are considered inefficient.


Growers have used flurorescent tubes to provide light for many years. They are inexpensive, are easy to set up, and are very effective. Plants grow and bud well under them. They are two to three times as efficient as incandescents.

Here's another one from http://weedfarmer.com/cannabis/lights.php


The common incandescent light bulb emits some of the frequencies of light the cannabis plant can use, but it also emits a high percentage of far red and infra-red light which cause the cannabis plant to concentrate its growth on the stem. This results in the cannabis plant stretching toward the light bulb until it becomes so tall and spindly that it just weakly topples over.

There are several brands of bulb type. One is the incandescent cannabis plant spot light which emits higher amounts of red and blue light than the common light bulb. It is an improvement, but has it drawbacks. it is hot, for example, and cannot be placed close to the cannabis plants.

Consequently, the cannabis plant has to stretch upwards again and is in danger of becoming elongated and falling over. The red bands of light seem to encourage stem growth which is not desirable in growing marijuana. The idea is to encourage foliage growth for obvious reasons.

So I think it's pretty obvious that incandescents are inferior to flourescents in intensity and efficiency so why would anyone use them? If you want to, go ahead but I know there are better alternatives.

[JackdaWack]

im just sayin u can purchase all you need with out using ebay. They do watch what people buy, and these "hydro" systems are very popular for growing illgal things. Not that any of us do. But they do sell lists of people who buy what to people who may be intreasted. As digital documentions arent really evidence its still points "them" in a direction. DO what u want, it makes no diff to me. But i would most def. just buy a hps, If you want +yeaild + potenc IMO

[mackSwell]

Are you saying here that incandescents are better than the sun for flowering?

I'm simply saying that incandescents provide relatively more red wavelengths in their spectra than the sun does. Check the graphs - It's science and whatnot. *wink* If I could grow outdoors, I would. The sun is the ultimate all-in-one. But for indoor growing, we have to take the best synthetic options for the plants' needs and for our own purposes.

Please, do the experiment.

I'll tell ya what - If I get the bag seed to sprout, I'll definitely do Plant 1 on solely CFL, and Plant 2 on CFL & incandescent.

I might even do it with the good seeds for the betterment of all grow-kind.

If I have the spare bucks, I'll even do Plant 3 on CFL & HPS.

If I had unlimited funds, I'd also do Plant 4 on MH, Plant 5 on MH & incandescent, Plant 6 on MH & HPS, etc.


So I think it's pretty obvious that incandescents are inferior to flourescents in intensity and efficiency so why would anyone use them?


You ask me: Why would anyone use incandescents over CFL?

ANSWER: For flowering. CLF does not provide as much of the red waves which are proven to be beneficial during flowering.

I ask you: Why not use some incandescents (rather than solely CFL) to give your plants more of the red light they need during flowering and achieve more yield?

I absolutely agree that incandescents are crap for vegetative growth. It's like trying to make a souffle in an Easy Bake Oven. That CFL are more energy-efficient than incandescents is a given. And if you have to choose ONE type of bulb to use throughout, CFL is the way to go. More red than MH, more blue than HPS. (see graphs) I'm certainly not arguing for sole use of incandescents throughout!


All of the info quoted in your post about the effects of red light & heat apply to HPS AND incandescents. They are both used for their red wavelenghts during flowering, because it is proven that red is good for flowering.

HPS does have advantages over incandescent - The bulbs last longer, and are said to be even more energy-efficient than CFL. And in a situation where one bulb serves several plants, and/or the grower is growing a large crop, I expect that HPS has it all over incandescents.

So why would anyone use incandescents over HPS?

For my purposes, with 1 light per plant, 4-plant crop, in a small space, incandescents offer distinct advantages over HPS:

1) They put out less heat, so they can be placed closer to the plants - and, in an enclosed space, they have less effect on the ambient temperature.
2) They can be used in the same fixture as the CFL, so I don't need to buy a HPS-specific fixture, which saves money and allows for easier switching back & forth.
3) They are cheap and easy to get.

[mackSwell]

JackdaWack - You have a point. If one wants to be super-stealthy, refrain from ANY online ordering.

Refrain from posting here, for that matter. *chuckle*

But since the guy was talking prices, I just offered a cheap way to a hydro set-up.

I'm not recommending that anyone take my advice about anything. *grin*

[Perp]

I ask you: Why not use some incandescents (rather than solely CFL) to give your plants more of the red light they need during flowering and achieve more yield?

Because you can buy CFL w/ a red spectrum, if you want. They give off LESS heat than incand., cost LESS over the course of their lives, and produce MORE bud.

You're missing the point. "Plants grow and BUD well under them." You don't need to use incandescent.

Do the experiment, one plant w/ CFL, one plant w/ CFL + incand., and one w/ CFL(blue) + CFL(red) and tell me which one does better.

Good luck w/ your grow.

[mackSwell]

A "red fluorescent" would be preferable to an incandescent.

Does one exist?

I see much out there about "Warm White" fluorescents... Below you will see two graphs of Warm White spectra, and the incandescent spectrum again.

I see a lot of orange and yellow in the Warm Whites, but it looks to me like incandescents still provide much more red.

There are fluorescent agro-tubes that are said to put out strong blue and red, but again, these come at significant cost for bulb + fixture, and their superiority as a source of red is questionable anyway.

So I'm back to the question - Why not use incandescents if they are a better source of red light than even "warm" CFLs provide? Yes, they are less energy efficient. But if it's red light I seek...

Perhaps bad experiences or anecdotes about incandescents have prejudiced you against their use, regardless of their potential value?

Don't be an anti-incandescite! *grin*

[MisterE]

There's no reason for you not to try whatever you want to try obviously :)

If I had no choices, I would use CFL's until flower time, and then ADD a couple of incandescents. No sooner though, else they'd just stretch.

I believe there are warm CFL's that also are odor neutralizers.

[mackSwell]

On lights: I do plan to combine CFL and incandescent as per my original plan, unless I decide to go for The Test when I have 4 plants in the system.

None of the baggie seeds I tried this round sprouted. Awww. But I had one seedling from around 8 weeks ago that's been to Hell and back, and it is now vegging happily all by its lonesome in my system.

Seeds from Hemp Depot were shipped out on the 4th... Woohoo!


The Saga of the Seedling Surviver

So this little seedling was doing okay in a Jiffy Pellet on the windowsill, where I had been largely ignoring it, save occasional tap water straight from the faucet, and a bamboo skewer w/ dental floss to stake it, since its stem was so weak.

I decided to relocate it and give it some serious light, and to switch to "rested" tap water. It was happy under its new CFL, but the stem was still so weak (and now 2-3" long), that it was too late to use a fan - it would've just blown the little gal/guy into oblivion.

Here's where I got a case of the stupids - I tried to re-stake it with a straw that was slit down one side (as in to encase the stem), thinking this would provide better long-term support to the weak part, and allow me to use a fan for new growth without the interference of the bamboo skewer.

In my attempt to straw-stake, I pushed the straw into the soil, and inadvertantly severed the seedling from its root system. (DOH!)

Well, this little seedling is a surviver! I trimmed the stem short, and put it into a glass of water, and moved it back to the windowsill - I guess to give it a view while it died. But it did not go gently! It grew a couple new roots. Encouraged, I dipped it into rooting compound, and replanted it in the Jiffy pellet.

Then my bubbler arrived. You know I had to try...

I carefully removed the seedling from the Jiffy, rinsed all the dirt from the roots, and returned it to water (still on the sill) for a day or two while my system got established. The roots grew more than an inch in this time - Likely owing to a decent amount of dark time (roots like), and the residual effects of the rooting hormone.

About a week ago, I carefully pulled open a damp rockwool cube, laid the roots in it, closed it up, and put it into grow rocks in net pot.

This champ is thrilled! Due to uncertainty about how to age a plant that's been thru so much, I started it on light nutes, and then added more yesterday when I noticed some yellowing (N deficiency) in the leaves.

Overnight, the leaves began to green up nicely, and Champ grew 2 new sets of leaves - Literally overnight.

Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised... It is a weed, after all... But I'm proud of the little guy/gal.

The morals of the story are:
1) Don't mess with your seedings too much with your bright (or dim) ideas.
2) Don't give up until your plant does.
3) If you have a plant with a stem so weak/long you're thinking of trashing it, try cutting the stem very short, placing it it water, and seeing if it tries to grow new roots. Champ's stem is now very strong!

[BlackBliss]

You just dont listen do you....why are you wasting time when you have experienced growers telling you that you NEED high intensity lighting like HPS (High Pressure Sodium) and MH (Metal Halide).....
One thing you do need to do is stop with this shit about incadescent bulbs...

>>>>>>>>>>IT DOES'NT WORK<<<<<<<<<<

Also stop with the graphs, im telling you this next part to help you ok.....
You dont just need the red end of the spectrum threwout a plants cycle....you need 2.....one for veg (which is a bluere end of the spectrum for plant growth) & one for flower (which is the red/orange end of the spectrum).
yes... Fluorescents are good for side lighting, recovering clones,recovering adults & newborn seedlings.
Incadescents aren't even good for that!!!

What im saying is that you wont get good growth, you'll just get stretching, minimal foliage, and a 0-10 gram yield....

Think about that man, its your grow, but you dont want to be putting in all that effort for nothing now do you????????
Do some research next time......then execute!

Good luck with your "low" intensity lighting...lol
Peace Out & Happy tokes,
Bliss.

[mackSwell]

*laughing*

Okay, Grumpleberry Crankypants - Allow me to respond:

This is my first hydro grow, not my first grow.

Seems to me the main "Experienced Grower" participating in this thread has been pro-CFL, not staunchly pro-high-intensity.

I'm happy to get constructive input, but baffled as to why you're so ornery about my choices. It's not as though I've even suggested that anyone follow suit...

I'm also curious as to how you know I'll get poor growth, "stretching, minimal foliage, and a 0-10 gram yield"... Have you employed these same methods with said result? Or are you, perhaps, just regurgitating what you've read/heard?

People have been growing indoors for much longer than all of the high-intensity options have been readily available on the market. If my lighting gives my plants the wattage and wavelenghts they need to thrive, I'm pretty sure they don't care what kind of bulbs I'm using. And I certainly don't know why you do!

So Darlin'... Use HPS, use MH, use a lava lamp - I don't care. I'm simply describing my set-up & reasoning, and, obviously, my research about plants & spectra. I've added graphs to concisely explain the science behind my choices. And I'lll report on my results for anyone who is interested, but it isn't required reading, so if it gets you agitated, just pick another thread to read. Click, click.

[mackSwell]

Payment sent on 11/27, received on 12/4, seeds arrived just as ordered on 12/8.

[BlackBliss]

*laughing*

Okay, Grumpleberry Crankypants - Allow me to respond:

This is my first hydro grow, not my first grow.

Seems to me the main "Experienced Grower" participating in this thread has been pro-CFL, not staunchly pro-high-intensity.

I'm happy to get constructive input, but baffled as to why you're so ornery about my choices. It's not as though I've even suggested that anyone follow suit...

I'm also curious as to how you know I'll get poor growth, "stretching, minimal foliage, and a 0-10 gram yield"... Have you employed these same methods with said result? Or are you, perhaps, just regurgitating what you've read/heard?

OK lets just say from my very first ever grow, i thought i could use incadescent bulbs also....then i moved to fluoro's, then to HPS....now i still have my HPS and would never go back.....so guess you could say its from personal experience......once again....goodluck with it!!!

[Racerx]

just stopping by...but are you actually considering using incandescent bulbs? you do realize they will not work. Sure your plant will live. No you wont get any bud. CFLs do work, in fact they can work quite well and they are offered in the red flowering spectrum(apprx 3000k) and blue veg (approx 6000k). The problem is...they are CFLs. They work GREAT when they are around 1-2" from the canopy. The problem unless you have massive side lighting...the lumens will dissapate so quickly that you wont be penetrating worth a dam. Sure some wide and low LST plants could get some good yields. Hell...Ive now seen people pull 2-3 ounces from a CFL plant. The thing is, they had one plant and only one plant. They had a small tiny closet and they had issues with ventillation and heat so an HID wasnt a viable choice.

That being said, if your growing hydro with more then one or two plants, your just holding yourself back without an HID. An HID will have vastly superior penetration, you will only need one light instead of 12 of them, and youll just get far superior growth in shorter time. Like a said, CFLs can produce but you really should only employee them in my opinion if your in a freakin dorm room or something with no space.

If your doing hydro, you have space for it and detection cant be a big deal, so that means you probably have the space for an HID and some proper ventillation. If your completely against the thought of an HPS light, then scrap the CFLs and purchase some real fluros like some T5 HO. The T5 will have more wattage over a larger area with more lumens. I havent read your thread so I am just jumping in.

However, I will end my stoned rant (just tried some of my purple, its out of this world, grown under HID might I ad) with this. If you plan on getting high yields with CFL, unless you have already grown successfully indoors already I wouldnt expect much. Some noobies can get some great yields first time around with HID, but Ive never seen someone without grow experience grow with CFLs and come out well.

Oh what I really wanted to mention is that while some people can pull 1-3 ounces off a CFL plant, in the time it took them to veg and flower (a long time with cfls), I could have nearly 2 cycles finished (since I barely veg and use HIDs) and I would end up with more.

[bud luv]

Go HID or Go Home.

You want 10 grams or 100's??

[mackSwell]

My little champ is coming along pretty well as my trial hydro run. CFL still (and yes, I still plan to use CFL & incandescents during flower this run... If I'm not happy with the results, I will consider the MANY forceful opinions expressed here. *wink*).

BTW - The fan I'm using is a "Register Booster" fan... They are made to respond to temperature (to be places by forced air vents in homes) and turn on and off at your set point by themselves. These are wonderful! The on & off gives a great natural breeze effect, and since I'm using CFL and temp never gets high, the fact that they don't blow constantly is a bonus. They aren't the cheapest small fans - about $35 at Home Depot - but I thought I'd pass it on!


The only trouble I'm having is a small amount of tip burn on the older, lower leaves. Obviously not a heat/scorch issue, since temp is good and it's only lower leaves. Older leaves suggest it is a mobile element problem, but I don't know which.

I pruned off the oldest, lowest, small leaves, as some were showing a bit of chlorosis as well - from the tips back, no pronounciation between the veins.

Had a bit of "praying" earlier this week, but foliar Epsom & H2O solved this immediately. Continued spray for 2 days, morning & evening.

Changed the resevoir the next day as well, and added some H2O2 to prevent the slight algae growth cleaned out of old resevoir.

pH has been consistant and is not a problem.

The next oldest set of leaves show just the tip burn. It is truly just the very tips, less than 1/32", and does not seem to be spreading.

Can anyone suggest what is troubling my older, lower leaves?

[mackSwell]

Well, I'm guessing at this point that my plant is simply getting too many nutes. It is actually about 6 weeks old, but due to the trauma it endured a few weeks ago, I've had to 'handicap' its age. I've weakened the nute:water ratio in hopes of preventing more tip burn.

I'm also misting frequently, as humidity is on the lower side in my grow closet (except around shower time - closet is in a bathroom). But with consistant temperature in the low 70s, I've not seen any evidence of too-low-humidity problems.

I'll get some pix up when I'm not being so lazy.

[mackSwell]

My plant has responded very well to the lower nutrient concentration. I've been giving it a little foliar boost - H2O, H2O2, Epsom Salts, Apple Cider Vinegar, and some pH down for potassium.

The plant is nice and bushy, no stretching. The CFL is just a few inches above the canopy. (One day the clamp slipped and the CFL was resting on some of the leaves for a few hours... They weren't happy, but have recovered nicely.)

On foliar sprays... I've been doing some research, and read that although the stomata (pores used for respiration) are indeed on the undersides of the leaves, when you hit them with liquids, they actually close up! (Not buying this? Pluck a piece of a leaf, put it under a microscope, and check it out for yourself.)This counter most accepted info that foliar sprays should be applied to the undersides of leaves. So for good measure, it seems worthwhile to spray the entire leaf.

Also, research indicates that you should aim for a pH of 5.0 for foliar sprays. So add a touch of pH down, unless your potassium is already to high... Then you may wish to add vinegar instead - but not Apple Cider Vinegar, because this is also high in potassium!

[mackSwell]

Finally the photos!

In the 3rd, you can see the touches of tip burn on the lower leaves. No new leaves are showing this. You can also see some downward curl on some leaves... About 7-10 leaves show this, but I believe I have the cause fixed - I think it was getting too much nutrient for its handicapped age.

All-in-all, its going pretty well for a trial run.

[mackSwell]

P.S. The downward curl could also be from the 3 hours or so that the light slipped down onto the plant... In any case, newer leaves aren't showing curl, and growth & roots look good.

[Splifted]

P.S. The downward curl could also be from the 3 hours or so that the light slipped down onto the plant... In any case, newer leaves aren't showing curl, and growth & roots look good.

Why is it that everyone, and i mean EVERYONE drops a light on plant? Lol, i feel your pain and so do the rest of the boards. Its like you're not a real grower until you've dropped at least 1 light :pimp:

Nice setup btw.

[mackSwell]

Thanks, Splifted! I have been admiring your bodacious buds. *wink* You've given great info on your topping & LST results... I might have to give that a try in my next go-around. This poor plant has been thru so much already, I'm trying not to mess with it too much.

[mackSwell]

Well, I screwed up again. *chuckle*

I changed out the resevoir yesterday, with plans to give Champ a night in just balanced H2O with a bit of H2O2. Champ sat happily in a little bucket of pH 5.8 while the tap water in the resevoir 'rested'.

My tap water has a pH of 7.0. I'd added 1 tsp H2O2 per gallon to the resevoir (standard dose I use to prevent algae, and to speed in the dissipation/neutralization of the Chlorine in my tap water.) The H2O2 brings the pH down a smidge, but not much.

Here is comes...

Last night I got another case of the stupids: I moved Champ and the 2nd airstone back to the resevoir, and went to bed.

That's right... I never adjusted the pH.

Soooo, below you will see photos of pH shock, FYI. *shakes head*

Champ was in the pH 7.0 resevoir for about 10 hours.

I added light nutrients to the resevoir this morning (which bring the pH down), then checked the pH and had the head-slapping realization of what I had done. I gave Champ about 30 minutes in pH 5.8 to undue some of the high pH built up in him, then, not wanting to shock him again (by leaving him in the drastically lower pH for an hour or more), I pH upped the resevoir to about 6.5. I've read that even a sudden difference of .5 can shock plants (and that they need a couple of hours in a new pH level to "feel" the effects"), but I didn't want to go any higher than 6.5.

My plan is to gradually add nutrients (till I reach 3/4 tsp/gallon) over the next couple of days to bring the pH slowly back down to 5.8. If the nutrients alone don't bring the pH down enough, I'll have to dump the resevoir and start all over, since I already used pH up.

Yes, it would have been wiser to move champ back to the little bucket and do the gradual change in there, then move him back to the already 5.8 resevoir, but I was in a bit of a tizzy. *chuckle*

pH shock currently appears on Champ as "freckling" on a couple fronds of one of the largest fan leaves.

Also below is an updated photo of the whole plant. Before THIS, new growth continued nicely, but downward curl also remains, and is showing on some of the newer growth. This is why I changed the resevoir to begin with, thinking that there may be a build-up of salts/still too many nutes in the resevoir causing this curl. (no, I haven't invested in a ppm meter yet, but I probably will before growing the Sweet Tooth.)

Now I may never know, eh? Well, that's why this is the TRIAL run, I guess. *smirk*

[mackSwell]

CORRECTION:

Dec 19th post - pH down added to foliar spray for Phosphorous, not Potassium.

[lovetogrow]

ive done the cfl thing, then i went to hps. I wont be back cfl if my grow depended on it. my frist hps was 400w. now im running 1000w mh for veg, and 2x1000w hps for flower. all i got to say is if your running cfls or anything else other the mh/hps then your wasting your time. you say your grow cost like a little over $100. well the rule is " Go cheap, Grow cheap" you got guys in here (that have $1000's in their grows) telling you wasting time and if you order seeds then wasting time and good seeds. and yet you dont listen. if your not going to listen then why ask. we are here to more. but that my two cents if you dont like it, sorry . but good luck anyway.

[lovetogrow]

"You got guys in here (that have $1000's in their grows) telling you that your wasting time and if you order seeds then wasting time and good seeds"
"We are here to help"
sorry about that some times i get typing to fast and dont look back

[mackSwell]

Champ has recovered nicely from his pH shock. The freckling remains on a couple of those large fan leaves, but it got no worse that pictured previously.

Champ is in another fresh rez as of 12/25. pH is back to a steady 5.8-6.1 range.

The downward curl is no longer appearing on new growth, and has improved greatly on older growth. Got curl-down? Change your rez!

I backed the lights down to 17/7 during the recovery phase, but as of yesterday it is back to 18/6. I'm only a few days' growth away from my planned flowering height (up to the bottom removable shelf in the closet), but I may hold off a tad to get Champ nice and stable first.

Today I'm giving Champ 2 CFLs of side lighting to help the middle bushy growth reach its potential. S/He stretched a bit in the last week, as you can see from the 2nd photo. But the growth pattern has been such; shooting up a bit, then growing new branches on the sides of that growth and bushing out.

On lighting -

Ok, folks... Last time: I hear you. Some say HID (MH/HPS) is the only way to grow. Some swear by CFL. And everyone thinks incandescent is a bad idea. I appreciate all the input, if not always the delivery. *chuckle* For this grow, my trial run, I am sticking to my plan. I will learn from this experience, and from all of yours, and make the necessary changes when it is time to start the good seeds.

[mackSwell]

Well, I wasn't gonna mess with LST this run, but Champ had recovered so nicely from his root sever and pH shock incidents, I figured, "What the Hell."

Not so much a space issue, as wanting more colas, and curiousity.

I used pipe cleaners. Soft on the stems... you can make loops that are not tight and still get the desired bends, and you can bend them around/above/below branches & stems you don't wish to bother.

Oh, and I added a little splint to the part of the main stem that had started taking too much strain of the bend... Piece of a popsicle stick wrapped in cotton, secured with Scotch tape.

Thoughts?

[Weedhound]

Mack I love the name Champ for a plant. You are growing with the same lights that a friend of mine uses and your plant looks about the same. From reading your stuff it seems that you have done a lot of studying on growing etc. To me your plant looks ok size-wise but not great; about what I would expect from that type of lighting. Where you will really run into problems will be in flower. I think what the folks are trying to say is that you are going to put the same amount of tiime, work, nutes etc into your grow and it seems to make sense to use the best lighting possible. The difference will show in your yield at the end and at that point i think you'll change to something more effective.

Also are you in flower at this point? I don't lst until I 've gone into flower but that's just me.

I do use foliar sprays on my plants early on in veg...i like VHO by Advance Nutrients and use it regularly but don't do any misting otherwise . It does tend to cause the burning on the very edge of my older leaves too. As long as it stays on the older leaves and doesn't spread i don't worry about it.

Also you may have posted all this info somewhere else but...is Champ a female clone? Or are you not sure yet if grown from seed? What an absolute bummer that would be if you got this far and found out Champ was a he-man.

Last of all.....what are your ppms these days and what kind of water are you using?

[mackSwell]

Hi Weed!

Yep, I may very well switch to some more intense lighting when I go on to the good seeds, but for my trial run it wasn't worth the investment (to me).

This round I get to make a bunch of mistakes and questionable decisions, and learn from them. *grin*

I have done soil grows in the past, but this is my first hydro grow... And yeah, I did a lot of research first, especially on lighting. I love the clamp lamps, and was hoping my half-assed lighting scheme would work out ok so I don't have to buy new fixtures. *chuckle* We'll see, I guess!

I'm not in flower yet... Thought about skipping the LST and going 12/12 yesterday since Champ was about 14 inches. I opted to try the LST, and I'm gonna give it a week before flowering.

I've not done as much LST research, but many I read started much earlier than I did. I'd love to know what advantages you've found from waiting until flowering to do LST - I have no idea what impact the timing has, other than not wanting to start with a plant that is too small/young.



I'm pretty sure it was my rez nutes that burned the tips - Foliar seems to have had no negative impact on the leaves. I do mist (w/o additives other than pH down) regularly, because humidity is on the low side in my closet.


Champ is of unknown sex & strain... Bag seed. I don't even know of what batch he came - I had seeds from over the years all in a pill bottle, and Champ was the only one that made it past one inch. I'm figuring he'll probably be male since he's had a pretty stressful veg. Of course I hope she's female, but I won't be too bummed if he's male - I really wanted to try everything out on a plant I don't care about all too much (i.e. not my purchase Sweet Tooth #1 seeds) so I didn't have to cry like a baby if I killed it. *smirk*


PPMs - Not a clue. Haven't yet purchased a meter.

Water - "Rested" tap w/H2O2. Have good tap water here - Read the city's Water Report and the only concern was chlorine, hence the resting. pH is 7.0 before nutes, and I've had no trouble with pH flux. I do have to change rez water more often because it seems to cause curl down after about 5 days... Probably due to build-up of misc. stuff in the tap water, or the unknown ppms. I've developed a system of swapping out about a gallon or two after 3 days, then the whole rez after 6-9 days. This seems to do the trick, but I'll likely use a combo of tap & distilled when I do my next grow.

Thanks for stopping by!

[Weedhound]

Hmmmm, afraid it's pretty hard to say if you can't count ppms but to each his own as my old man always said. My only real advantage of waiting to lst is that I only want to do it to the females given space, lighting, and most of all my lack of work ethic. The males can pretty well blow off in my book. Right now I'm growing from seed not clones so until i go to 12/12 and determine sex I'm not working on anything. Period. During the veg stage they either grow like they are supposed to or I drop a light on them (j/k)

[mackSwell]

Champ has been on 12/12 for 5 nights now. Tomorrow I will peek at his/her privates in hopes of glimpsing sex traits. Camera batteries need charging, but I'll get a new photo up ASAP. Champ has probably doubled in size & fullness since LSTing!

And yes... the light is now 2 incandescent grow bulbs and 1 CFL. A couple of burns on the top leaves whilst I found the right height & configuration for the clumsy bulb set-up, but overall, looking good.

Cigars all around if it's a girl!

[MisterE]

Congrats, I wish I'd started to flower mine about a month sooner too,lol. They're starting second week of flower now and taking up almost half of my 5x7 foot room. 2 plants.
I think if I'd gotten some clones this go around, I'd put them directly into 12/12 after rooting honestly.

[mackSwell]

Champ is beginning to preflower, but it is still too soon for me to be able to tell sex. I know some of y'all can differentiate just that little green nub that appears, but I'm not that tricky. *chuckle*

I'm fine it the plant grows into a monster, since it is the only one I'm growing this round, and I have enough lamps to provide side lighting and such. It has stretched some in this past week under 12/12, but a little stretch during flower is okay by me.

Hope to announce sex in a couple of days! Pix then.

[mackSwell]

Flowering has stalled - I believe due to low RH. Working on correcting this problem now. Growth continues, but no definite sex traits that I can ID have appeared yet.

Out of boredom, I have water cured some of the smaller leaves from pruning. My tolerance is currently ZERO, and I do get a mild effect after a full joint of this crapola, but I suspect it is the other misc. cannabinoids that are responsible.

Yummier than a cigarette though - Full of the taste of hope. *grin*

[MisterE]

lol, my tolerance is zero too and I smoke some leaf now and then and definitely get some effect.

I dont know about low RH being something that stalls flowering? My humidity gauge goes down to 15% and below that it just shows --, and there's many times it's pegged on the low side. It's so damn dry here you can't make spit or tears!! I have to run a humidifier just to make it tolerable for myself to live, lol! Would like to hear more about that though.

Hope you have a female!

[mackSwell]

Cigars (stuffing of your choice) for everyone!

Here are some photos of Champ's preflowers and new flowers. I did some image tweaking with the preflower shots (taken thru a magnifying glass) to enhance the edges and increase brightness & contrast to make the preflowers more visible in the photos. (To the naked eye, they are clear as day.)

She seems to have 4 or 5 tops from the LSTing. Sweet...

I am truly shocked that Champ is female - She had such a rough life! Tough girl, this one.

*does a happy dance*

Mister E - Thanks for your good wishes! I shall have you bless all my future grows. *grin*

On humidity: Since you want to maintain RH of 40-50% during flower, I figured it is only logical that having RH significantly lower than that will stunt flowering.

Must be something to my theory, because in the 2 days since I posted & raised the humidity, Champ burst forth with both preflowers and baby flowers!

I went low-tech to raise the humidity: I hang a damp towel behind the fan, and have a shallow tray with a bunch of Hydroton rocks in it that I water daily.

[MisterE]

Cool, congrats.

I've got a humidifier slaving away here and raised my RH up to a bone dry 21%, lmao. Thank god this weed just wants to live no matter what abuse we subject it to, lol.

[mackSwell]

I changed my rez this morning, and while I usually let the pH settle for a bit before replacing Champ, I had to rush her back in today - She was wilting drastically after only about 15 minutes out of the rez. I've never had this problem with her before, and I did everything the same as I always do, including misting the roots with a pH adjusted H2O/H2O2 mist a couple of times while she waited. After replacing her, I sat with her for a good 10 minutes, holding her stems upright so they didn't get any severe bends. Eventually I just kinda propped her. She seems to be slowly perking back up.

Any idea what her problem is? Or is she just being tempermental, as pubescent girls are wont to be?

[MisterE]

That exact same thing happened to me on one res change. Crazy and scary and after I'd seen preflowers too. Since then I do as quick a change as I can and no problems since.

I pump the res dry, let the tub outflow empty the grow tub via gravity, and pump dry again ("dry" meaning all that the pump can get, the bottom of res is still wet). Then I quickly dump in a few gallons ASAP. Then nute it and top it off and adjust PH a bit later.

I think it'll be fine as long as you go quick. Some people told me they keep a second container of water handy and set the roots hanging in it while they change the res. I cant lift mine off anymore, so I just sprint.

[mackSwell]

Perhaps our girls are just super-sensitive about being rez-less, even briefly, once they begin to flower.

Champ is still pouting. She really doesn't look any better, but also not any worse.

How long did it take yours to recover?

[mackSwell]

I'd been planning to change her out tomorrow, but went early because he showed just the tiniest touch of tip burn this morning that wasn't there during our photo session yesterday. I hadn't added nutes in a few days, so I figured she must've been drinking more than she was eating and the nute concentration had gotten too high.

Now I almost wish I hadn't changed the rez at all! A little tip burn is better than a pitiful, wilting Champ!

[MisterE]

I think after about a day and a half or so they were ok again. Mine were maybe 2 1/2 feet tall at the time, so the droop looked pretty severe, but I just gently trained the branches as well as I could as they straightened back up and now you'd never tell there was an issue.

[mackSwell]

As of last night she's been holding herself upright - just not proudly. *chuckle*

Thanks for the encouragement!

[manwithbike]

Hey what up everyone, just signed up today. Me and a friend have invested some money in a grow project. The bubbleponics system from stealth hydro is in route and i just had a question about germinating. Can we just stick the seed in the rock wool and plug in the system and it will just germinate on its own or should we germinated first before putting it in the rockwool. Any help would be appreciated or if theres somewhere else on the forum i can go to read about it more let me know. Thanks

[mackSwell]

Champ is flowering along beautifully. I've got a clear/cloudy mix of trichs, percentage depends upon the bud in question. Keeping an eye out for amber to start flush. Harvest will probably be modest, but it smells divine, and I'm very happy with my first hydro effort! Pix to come in a few days.

.................................................. ...............

Question: I did some pruning about 2 weeks ago of some scraggly stems, to keep them from diverting resources from the more abundant ones. I stuck them in some water, and true to Champ genes, they rooted like crazy. They've been under the same lights, so they are producing teeny little flowers. Is it possible to revert these to veg as clones at this late point?

.................................................. ...............

Manwithbike: If you've not already discovered, you're more likely to get prompt answers to this type of question by starting a new thread or posting in a newbie question thread, but I'm happy to throw in my 2 cents here!

I prefer to germinate before placing in rockwool, and here's why: You can then place only growing sprouts in rockwool, thereby avoiding wasting space on seeds that weren't viable.

Here's how I germinate:

1 pint of tap water
3 oz of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
2 mL of bleach
seeds
paper towel, folded in quarters
source of heat (I use an electric heating pad like you'd use for sore muscles)


Put 'em all together, soak seeds for 24 hours. Keep an eye on them - if you see cracked ones, take them out and place them inside the dampened (wet it, wring it out) paper towel. Place paper towel near heat source, put whole schmear in a dark place (I keep mine in a foil-covered Jiffy Propagator). After the 24 hour soak, put all seeds in the paper towel. Check regularly for sprouting. Once you have some white poking out, you either open your propagator a bit and remove the foil, or jump ahead and place the sprout in your rockwool, pointy-seed-end up. Give them gentle (or distant) light while they toughen up.

Good luck!

[mackSwell]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]

Hi all!

Went to 12/12 on JAN 7th.
First flowers showed on Jan. 25th.
Off nutes on 3/9.

Now she's from bag seed, and I suspected early on that she had some sativa genetics due to her fan leaves' more narrow fronds, but Holy Hannah, I never expected to be flowering for 60 days!

Champ's trichs are still cloudy with some clear, no amber yet! It is tough to be patient, but I know she's close.

For all you naysayers, Champ has been on CFL since her sprout days, and CFL and incandescent (for red & far red) since 1/15. She may be slow, but she's filled out nicely.

LSTing gave her 5 heads, and a few minor ones. As you can see from the last photo, she's spitting buds out of every possible spot.

Photo Guide:
a) Whole plant - Yep, that's just one. Coke can for size reference.
c) One of 5 colas - not the main cola.
d) Top view of main cola
e) Buds, buds, everywhere...
f) Even buds here, and there...

[mackSwell]

Here's Champ's best portrait - Brighter & tighter.

[alwayssleepdeprived]

I've found that if I keep my girls in the mist chamber and move the whole set off the res they seem to be fine for a while but if the roots are hanging in air they tend to droop and look wilted very quickly...about 15 minutes and I can start to see negative signs but in the mist chamber they're good for an hour or 2 before anything seems to happen

Champ looks nice yer gonna get some nice green off that baby

How much longer you have with her? I've been in flower for 2 weeks and just saw my first pistil so I'm expecting I'm gonna go way over the 60 day mark

[mackSwell]

Since I'm doing DWC, I've just taken to having a bucket or such nearby, and I pour some of the old rez in it, set the plant & lid on that, and then change out the main rez. It was just such a shock when she suddenly started getting tempermental about it!


How much longer.... That is the question. *chuckle*

She's GOT to be close... Calyx are nicely swelled, trichs 95-100% cloudy, she seemed to be at peak bouquet about 6 days ago...

I could harvest now, but since I appreciate the pain-relieving effects most, I like a later harvest.

But I don't think she'll need more than another week. Or maybe that's just as long as I can stand to wait. *grin*

It's been a long time since I had a plant with such strong sativa flowering traits (again, I usually go indica because I want that narcotic effect), so I'm worried about harvesting too late, or in between peak windows. But I've been very disciplined thus far. *wink*

[mackSwell]

3 days ago I harvested one of Champ's colas. Still no amber, but I wanted to sample her at her just-cloudy stage. I dried it for a couple of days, and put it in a latched canning jar.

Last night I had to try. :) It wasn't easy to get it burning since it was still a little damp for smoking, but with a few tricks, I got it going...

...And it was delightful! Not harsh at all - Long flush helped that I think, since clearly it didn't cure much. Plenty of body effect - in fact it knocked out my constant back pain completely for about an hour and a half (without putting me to sleep), which is something usually only morphine or oxy can do at doses so high that I turn into a puddle. *chuckle* And no paranoia whatsoever.

It's amazing what a little bag seed can become with hydro & TLC!

So I harvested the top 2-3" of the other 4 colas, and snipped some buds down about another inch. The rest I'll let go until they reach the same stage - no more holding out for amber, 'cause I'm very pleased with the high I got without it.

Thanks to all who supported this first hydro grow!

Starting those Sweet Tooth #1 seeds soon!