Evidence: The Case For NASA UFO's - Part 1 -

[ate]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5070476612863849446&q=nasa

This is yet another very good video, all filmed by NASA, and explained by some guy that seems to know what he's talking about. Very good film, very very interesting.

[orangeman]

Wow. They lost me when they started talking. I sorta kept up but I just got lost again and again. I wish I would've known that they would talk so sophisticated, then I wouldn't have smoked so much to be amazed :p.

[harris7]

a lot of bullshit scientists talk in big language so people have trouble understanding them. IT is a TRICK used. MAkes me think its fake.

BTW i haven’t looked yet

[ate]

The fact that you talk about something, form opinions about it, and even make claims about it before you have seen it for yourself makes me want to disregard the next thing you say as biased. But I won't.

[harris7]

no it's ok i am biased.
I dont believe in UFO sightings. I do think there is other life (only based on probability)

i just dont believe any of the hicks who have seen ufo's or been abducted or any of that stuff

and BTW it is a trick commonly used. To persuade someone you must convince them of your authority (this is thought of as an accepted source of info)
they do this by using big words and saying they have degrees.

If you want someone to understand and judge what you are saying you say it in the clearest words possible, This is why scientific research is supposed to be understandable by anyone (they arn't good at this i note).

[ate]

Yes, but this thread is about what that video holds.

[mrdevious]

In my experience, such "documentaries" or similar videos are impossible to distinguish fact from fiction, as information and even interviews with qualified professionals are often edited to change the meaning and make completely different points than was intended by the interviewed expert.

[ate]

You can find the videos on youtube and nothing else required is the nasa footage. The film explains it, they do not show you something and tell you what it is. They show you what it is and how it's physically impossible for it to be anything else, it's an analysis of the footage with diagrams and the whole nine-yards.

[Hamlet]

The real evidence for UFOs is slim to none.

There's a guy who's hobby is making crop circles. He has to document his plans with drawings, dated,registered letters, etc..ahead of time for absolute proof that he was the one who created the crop circle, and still the UFO nuts are out there claiming aliens did it and calling him a lier.

The sad part is, if there really was any credible evidence for such phenomena, no one credible would touch it because all the kooks have the subject so throughly buried in 'fringe' bullshit.

[orangeman]

Actually you guys should watch the video all the way through. I mean even being the person that I am that video really has some possibility to it. I mean we are only humans and just looking at a picture of Earth...looking at all that endless blackness it just tells you that we are not alone. We have many mysteries, no one that's reading this knows what death is like because we've never died, have you ever met an "alien"? No, so how can you say they don't exist. When he explains light years and how long it'd take us to get to some other areas out there that really shows how disconnected we really are with the rest of the many places out there.

[ate]

I mean we are only humans and just looking at a picture of Earth...looking at all that endless blackness it just tells you that we are not alone.


It's the equivalent of being in a single secluded part of the ocean and believing that you are the only fish.



We have many mysteries, no one that's reading this knows what death is like because we've never died.


You would think it's some mystical truth or secret. But if it's such a mundane part of life that absolutely everything LIVING must DIE, then don't you think there would at least be some clues? I mean. It IS the other HALF if not MORE of our entire existence. Don't you think that means something other than, "I don't know?", of you course you know, you just have to think about it correctly.



Have you ever met an "alien"?


You should be asking "Are you an alien" as well, because there are both kinds of beings capable of responding.



No, so how can you say they don't exist.


This is another backwards way of thinking. NOTE: ME too! All humans think this way, it is our desire, our nature, our knowledge of conscious life. But there's more.

The whole ability to comprehend what exists or not, stems from the ability to comprehend the self's existence. We jumped, and so we have skewed knowledge. Because half of the world doesn't even believe we exist, as self-aware beings, just illusory lumps of cells with electricity running through it.

From this fundamental point of awareness, that occurred long long ago, we have not understand nature correctly. No wonder thousands of years later, our terra is failing, society is falling apart, and we are ultimately the cause of it all.




When he explains light years and how long it'd take us to get to some other areas out there that really shows how disconnected we really are with the rest of the many places out there.

You should think higher.

If we are disconnect. Then it is just to the type of beings that rely on space travel, and physical existence like us...animals. Get it? Lower beings, that's what this level is like, distance, need for energy, limited in almost every physical way.

Just that simply means we are limited from contacting other beings like us.

Yet. If the scale of evolution, the scale of "beingness" continues forever, than there are advanced beings around us at all times. And more likely, their are advanced beings that allowed us to take place in an evolution experience/experiment on earth, by providing us with the necessary possibilities.

Think, that lower part of the scale that you're focusing on, saying that we are disconnected from all other things, it relates to the physical. Now think, the physical is just one small portion of the universe, think of the energies the electricity, nuclear strong force, atomic energy, atoms, quantum observations, memory, awareness, the subconscious/conscious relativity, perceptions all these non-physical constitutions of reality fill our life with a human and universal life-like quality. This is not physical. Not at all.

Just as this physical nature has it's inhabitants, those other fields of particles, or waves (energies) has it's own inhabitants. So the aliens, in those distant places that we may be looking for, are likely no farther than the first quantum leap in front of our faces. The atoms we exist of are likely our link to these beings, and all beings, seeing as they connect to create the entire universe.

If we are connected on a fundamental level, then we are not far, distance means nothing.

The real evidence for UFOs is slim to none.

There is much evidence out there, you just have to find it.



There's a guy who's hobby is making crop circles. He has to document his plans with drawings, dated,registered letters, etc..ahead of time for absolute proof that he was the one who created the crop circle, and still the UFO nuts are out there claiming aliens did it and calling him a lier.


That's because he did not make the first one, what else do you expect from a liar? He didn't make crop circles, he just picked it up from the originals, that he first began seeing.



The sad part is, if there really was any credible evidence for such phenomena, no one credible would touch it because all the kooks have the subject so throughly buried in 'fringe' bullshit.

Doesn't make a difference to the reality of the events taking place.

[Hamlet]

That's because he did not make the first one, what else do you expect from a liar? He didn't make crop circles, he just picked it up from the originals, that he first began seeing.

No, he didn't make the first one. But he's really good at it and makes some extraordinary designs.

Two old farts from England made the first one. They just made a plan circle to make it look like a UFO landed there as a prank. Carl Sagan in Cosmos goes over it pretty thoroughly if you're interested in the real truth about crop circles.....not as fun and mystical as aliens and interdimensional beings I know. But at least it's the truth and in a world full of bullshit I'll take some truth like a breathe of fresh air any day.

Crop Circles are cool though. I think they hit an archetypical nerve in some way. Men making huge designs in the Earth facing Heaven, saying 'hey goddammit! We're down here!" No reply of course (not to anyone who has all their marbles anyway), but ya gotta love the spirit behind it.

[VOYAGER]

Dude that was pretty interesting, putting ufos aside and looking at it as far as physics go, it all makes sense. The only question i had is when the astronauts are working in space and see the ufo it contradicts the whole not being able to see them because they exist in a wave form invisibe to the human eye... unless they became visible when the craft slowed is energy down enough for it to fall within visibe waves. Reguardless i paid perfect attention to the show and the guy was on point in showing how the only answer left would be a ufo.

[ate]

Thank you for setting an example. I'm not sure how to answer your question, I know that the cameras used to film most of the "ufos" were filming in the ultraviolet and higher spectrum. I don't know whether the same craft were seen by humans, or whether that craft was traveling at a different rate is proportional to it's entire wavelength or at least the exterior. I believe they work by emitting a sort of shell around the body of the craft, much like a human does naturally to contain themselves to the body. But it also penetrates into the entire craft.




No, he didn't make the first one. But he's really good at it and makes some extraordinary designs.


Ok.



Two old farts from England made the first one. They just made a plan circle to make it look like a UFO landed there as a prank.


The first one is from longer ago than you think.



Carl Sagan in Cosmos goes over it pretty thoroughly if you're interested in the real truth about crop circles.....




not as fun and mystical as aliens and interdimensional beings I know.


If a snail was self-aware it would call us mystic aliens and inter-dimensional beings, the fact that it's overwhelming is not what create myth, our race does.



But at least it's the truth and in a world full of bullshit I'll take some truth like a breathe of fresh air any day.


The world is full of neither, and it has nothing to do with the present moment. It is limited and instinctual to cling to information from a higher source like that, you must find the truth on your own, from your own self, that's the only way you can get it from the inside not the outside seeing as the outside can be anything you want to imagine it, many people are living in their own reality disconnected from anyone elses.





Crop Circles are cool though.


Ok.



I think they hit an archetypical nerve in some way.



No such thing.



Men making huge designs in the Earth facing Heaven, saying 'hey goddammit! We're down here!"


Actually it's men tricking men into believing that the replies of those beings are actually just another message from them.



No reply of course


Of course, they're obliterating any seriousness and fundamental realness of that very reply. They're doing it to all of them!



(not to anyone who has all their marbles anyway)


Slightly distasteful please use better terminology. If you mean to call people crazy, then you're making a big generalization and proving that you are speaking about something that you're not experienced enough to face with a real, objective, unemotional answer.



but ya gotta love the spirit behind it.

Yes, exactly. Yet you don't see to be expressing that.

[LIP]

UFO's almost HAVE to be real, and there almost HAS to be aliens. Think about it. The universe is infinate. It's never ending. It's HUGE.. bigger than my ex's ass...

So, WHY are WE the only planet to have living things on?

There HAS to be life somewhere else. It's GOT to be out there.

[Hamlet]

I did see a show a while back where they tackled figuring out what one of the more interesting lights was photographed from the Shuttle. Most were easy to figure out-ice coming off the Shuttle itself, etc. The most puzzling one they discovered was a fishing fleet going around the horn of South America with all their lights on at night. It took quite a bit of detective work because the fishing fleet was working in illegal waters and there was no documentation of it until they were caught.

Carl Sagan made a good point-'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." There's always someone out there ready to bullshit the gullible for fun and profit. And there's always people willing to swallow it hook, line, and sinker. That UFO photographer someone posted a while back was caught with a garage full of UFO models, and some of his stills were directly lifted from old movie frames. But even after the fact he still has a large following buying into every word of bullshit coming out of his mouth.

I've always been intrigued by the UFO thing. When I was a kid I gobbled up every book I could find on the subject, Chariots of the Gods, etc. I still keep a close eye on the subject, but I look for the credible instead of buying into the absurd..My philosophy is if the light in the sky is an Airplane, I want to know and call it a goddamn airplane instead of pretending it's alien jesus coming down to save us all.

I saw an archeologist go through Chariots of the Gods and disassemble all his wild-ass claims that only aliens could have 'cut these stones', moved those rocks', etc....He went down to the quarry, shaped and fitted the stones himself showing exactly how the Incas did "what only an Alien laser could do!" His research won't sell as many books as Von Diekens did, but at least he's telling the truth.

So if you want to know the truth and live by it, it's going to mean letting go of a whole lot of fantasy. 99.9% of all this UFO crap is bullshit...most probably 100% -- But if that .1% ever does come along that truly is the real deal, would you want to miss it because you were too busy waiting on Hale Bopp with some silly-ass cult?

[ate]

You're spouting, if you want to come up with something relative to the movie, then please do so, if not, please don't preach about your cult here do it elsewhere.

[Hamlet]

You're spouting, if you want to come up with something relative to the movie, then please do so, if not, please don't preach about your cult here do it elsewhere.

I"m spouting? No, I'm pointing out real facts about the con job opportunists or the mentally unbalanced are trying to pass off onto the gullible.

And since this is a public forum will I continue to do it anytime I feel the urge. The real spouting comes from those who make wild-ass claims without anything even halfway credible to back it up. We've been con'ed by preachers and snake oil salesmen long enough. A lot of warped minds have caused enormous damage preaching just this kind of pseudo-science and mysticism-from Heaven's Gate, to David Koresh to Charles Manson. I'm always going to call the foul when I see it.

[harris7]

i would like to butt in.

It is impossible for one person to make all the crop circles. If you look into it. it's really crazy how many there are. And how big they are. I know some people have been caught doing them. But some of them, the cool ones, have actually taught us information.

i know it's hard to think of a shape teaching us something. But it has to do with mathematical relationships, which i'm not going to pretend to understand.

as well, there are interesting qualities of the circles. Like, in some the plants are woven together (which would take a hell of a long time) and the plants arn't snapped (which would occur if one did it with a 2x4) just bent and continue to grow.

Furthermore, they occur all over the world i think it's as frequent as more than once a week. And they can be so large that i would take hundreds of hours to create them using the known method (a 2x4)

my house cleaner was really interested in them and took me to info sessions and shit.


i promise i'll watch the video and make a contribution to that discussion


i'm not saying anything about who did them. but i think it's probaly bill gates and some new toy he's got.

[Hamlet]

Sorry harris7 but the interesting traits about the crop circles have be pretty thoroughly disputed. As I mentioned above-I watched a college student plot one out on his computer, pick the field and the date he would do it...send his plans in a registered letter so the date and design were verified before the circle was made. He created the circle in about four hours with the help of a couple of friends (filmed themselves doing it)...a very elaborate design with all kinds of physics and math to make it interesting.

Within a few days after he made it, all the researchers were there claiming there was no way the wheat could be woven like that, etc...they were out there with geiger counters claiming radio activity and all sorts of paranormal phenomena. When confronted with indisputable proof that the kid made it, they absolutely refused to accept accept the truth.

UFOs are a phenomenon. But they have very little to do with real aliens as they are a cultural anomily. Aliens and bigfoot are replacing the Angels and demons of yore in our mythologies. It tells us something about ourselves as humans...that's what makes it really interesting, and that's the real mystery that everyone is missing.

[harris7]

well i am no expert. and I can see that either view point could create a article or video proving or disproving, simply by leaving out important info. So i'm not going to agree with you, or disagree because i havent done my homework.


Hmm, seeing as wikipedia agrees with you. I shall agree with you.
I do think they are very cool to look at though

[Hamlet]

I
do think they are very cool to look at though

...and i will agree with you on that. I think they're amazing...truely fine art

[ate]

I"m spouting? No, I'm pointing out real facts about the con job opportunists or the mentally unbalanced are trying to pass off onto the gullible.


Yes, I'm aware of the facts you've pointed out but they're irrelevant to the discussion of the videos, which this thread is supposed to be about, which is about applying logic to a certain piece of evidence. You're speculating about past events and experiences.



And since this is a public forum will I continue to do it anytime I feel the urge.


Sure.



The rel spouting comes from those who make wild-ass claims without anything even halfway credible to back it up.


This is exactly what you've done.



We've been con'ed by preachers and snake oil salesmen long enough.


You have!

You're mixing your personal experience with both others and the present situation.



A lot of warped minds have caused enormous damage preaching just this kind of pseudo-science and mysticism-from Heaven's Gate, to David Koresh to Charles Manson.


Yes, so stop preaching!



I'm always going to call the foul when I see it.

Then abide by it!

[Hamlet]

Pretty vague rebuttals there ate. Any logical arguements and assertions?....but if you want to stick strickly to the video we can talk about that.

What are we watching? A top scientist from NASA, or MIT, or Cornell talking physics and investigating the anomilies? No, we're watching a self-proclaimed 'UFO Investigator' doing some really bad science, desperately trying to twist every flicker in some bad video into Alien intelligence from another planet. It's as shoddy as people claiming light flares on a camera lens are actually pictures of ghosts.

Why don't you see someone really prominent up there making the case for UFOs? Because they know its hogwash. Any time you do see someone with some real credentials talking about such things they're explaining that what you're actually seeing is ice coming off the shuttle, or a satellite orbiting, or a comet, or lightning on the earth. Of course the UFO cults will claim it's all
Government conspiracy to cover it up and only the brave few with no real education and off their meds dare expose the truth.

Even SETI, who are legitimate scientists trying to investigate such things, have found nothing yet. Why aren't they backing up this UFO researchers claims? Because a real investigation, time and time again, exposes less than glamorous facts.

Interesting how they included quotes from gnostic gospels. What does that have to do with the science? Nothing, but it does give you a strong clue where they're coming from. UFO cults who want to blend pseudo-science with religion to support foolish beliefs. Here's a little info from Wikipedia on UFO cults...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_cult

[ate]

Pretty vague rebuttals there ate.


Ok???



Any logical arguements and assertions?


From what I have seen from you, more than you can handle/have thought of as of now!



....but if you want to stick strickly to the video we can talk about that.


You haven't done this!



What are we watching?


The video!



It's as shoddy as people claiming light flares on a camera lens are actually pictures of ghosts.


Your opinion doesn't fight the logic! Sorry!



Why don't you see someone really prominent up there making the case for UFOs?


Because they are afraid, look into the matter and you'll realize this!



Because they know its hogwash.


I didn't know, thanks for notifying!



Any time you do see someone with some real credentials talking about such things they're explaining that what you're actually seeing is ice coming off the shuttle, or a satellite orbiting, or a comet, or lightning on the earth.


Yes, there is a reason for this, but you have not grasped it!

It seems all the shiny lights and fancy outfits that these people wear, have convinced you that they are more than humans!



Of course the UFO cults will claim it's all
Government conspiracy to cover it up and only the brave few with no real education and off their meds dare expose the truth.


I don't believe you know everyone, but for those that you are speaking on directly, I hope you know what you're talking about!



Even SETI, who are legitimate scientists trying to investigate such things, have found nothing yet.


What are they looking for?



Why aren't they backing up this UFO researchers claims?


I can not answer that question! If I thought I knew the answers to all these questions, I would only be considered ignorant and arrogant!



Because a real investigation, time and time again, exposes less than glamorous facts.


This has been proven otherwise, by the many many real investigations does, in all fields of "paranormal", which undoubtedly "changes lives" and opens people up to a broader spectrum of our reality!

You are confusing your experience, (a very small one), with the larger one of Everybodies! This is a grave mistake when it comes to remaining logical!



Interesting how they included quotes from gnostic gospels.


Sure, interesting indeed!


What does that have to do with the science? Nothing.


Thanks, I'll remember this!



but it does give you a strong clue where they're coming from.


Yes, it seems they are "well-read", people!



UFO cults who want to blend pseudo-science with religion to support foolish beliefs.


Not so much as you say it is, although maybe you've experience such a "cult", which is why I refered to you as the one with the "cult knowledge".

But this thread isn't about that, so until then, please that else where thank you!

[Hamlet]

Any logical arguements and assertions?


From what I have seen from you, more than you can handle/have thought of as of now!

Huh? If you're going to present a logical argument you'll have to write a coherent sentence and show us some logic.


This is exactly what you've done.

Exactly what I've done? My assertions are backed up by every leading scientist, University, Government, and credible journalistic source on the planet. Verses a large majority of the UFO proponents spending their days on thorazine making wallets and baskets.

Ever see any of this malarchy in Science Digest or any of the other leading academic journals? Nooo...you would have to check out a copy of Fate Magazine, or the National Inquirer to get the scoop on these hot revelations. (or some homemade video on Youtube.)


I don't believe you know everyone, but for those that you are speaking on directly, I hope you know what you're talking about!

Huh? Another vague sentence I'm trying to interpret, but yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I've been around many people suffering from paranoid psychosis and they all babble the same things about Government conspiracies, Aliens and UFOs, and sooner or later when they're hit rock bottom, they realize that they are indeed Jesus Christ. You'll see this same pattern over and over again.


What are they looking for?

Why such vague and elusive questions and statements if you have a logical argument as to why all this UFO weirdness is valid? What are they looking for? -- It's S.E.T.I....Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. They're looking for the same thing this goober on the film is looking for, but since they're credible scientists, they won't make any unsubstanciated claims. They will be the first to admit they don't have one shred of even halfway interesting evidence. And if they did have something extraordinary the first thing they would do is have their data checked, and rechecked by noted collegues for any errors or misinterpretations before proposing even a theory or conjecture.


This has been proven otherwise, by the many many real investigations does, in all fields of "paranormal", which undoubtedly "changes lives" and opens people up to a broader spectrum of our reality!

You are confusing your experience, (a very small one), with the larger one of Everybodies! This is a grave mistake when it comes to remaining logical!

I beg your pardon but this has not been proven otherwise. The Amazing Rhandi has a million dollar reward for anyone who can come foreward and 'prove' any paranormal power. No one has been able to claim that reward yet.

Remaining logical means examining credible evidence and research and drawing the most logical conclusions from that. Now, is this gentleman credible? All we know about him is he calls himself a UFO researcher. Does he have a degree in astrophysics? Is he the head of NASA? Do you know anything about him that would give his conjectures any validity whatsoever? No credible researcher in the world would come out and say that a squiggly light across a photograph is indisputable proof on Extraterrestrial Intelligence because they know it would be irresponsible at best, and dishonest at it's worst.

Oh, he wrote an E-mail to someone supposedly of note, and the source was nice enough to respond. Of course the subject of UFOs was never brought up in the initial Email, or the Sources response, obviously because the credible source would either have set him straight on his claims, or would not have bothered to reply at all.

I'll skip a few replies because they're strained so hard to be ambiguous (I suppose to sound guru-eque) that they make very little sense at all.


But this thread isn't about that, so until then, please that else where thank you!

This thread is all about that.... and you, me and anyone reading this thread knows it. It's not any different than evangelicals trying to pass off creationism as science, and pretending the church isn't behind it. Only this gets even flakier if that's possible. So, again, since this is a public forum I'll keep it right here where it belongs.

[ate]

My assertions are backed up by every leading scientist, University, Government, and credible journalistic source on the planet.


This does not make you right!



Verses a large majority of the UFO proponents spending their days on thorazine making wallets and baskets.


This is a lie, because you fear that you will be wrong!



Ever see any of this malarchy in Science Digest or any of the other leading academic journals?


That's like asking if you'll ever see a drumset in a magazine that sells ice-cream, very illogical!



Nooo...you would have to check out a copy of Fate Magazine, or the National Inquirer to get the scoop on these hot revelations. (or some homemade video on Youtube.)


Or how about NASA's archives, or the CIA's investigations!

Sounds much more credible than your "scientist friends"!



I've been around many people suffering from paranoid psychosis and they all babble the same things about Government conspiracies, Aliens and UFOs, and sooner or later when they're hit rock bottom, they realize that they are indeed Jesus Christ.


You have interesting relationships!



You'll see this same pattern over and over again.


You mean "I have seen" this same pattern over and over again!



They're looking for the same thing this goober on the film is looking for, but since they're credible scientists.


They are looking for different "evidences" here!



They won't make any unsubstanciated claims.


Yet, they'll tell you everything is ok, and that there's no reason to think on your own, and that they are the deciding source of all human knowledge.

An "age old" joke, that people actually began to believe!



And if they did have something extraordinary the first thing they would do is have their data checked, and rechecked by noted collegues for any errors or misinterpretations before proposing even a theory or conjecture.


Yes! In this process, much successful evidence discoveries, goes un presented!



The Amazing Rhandi has a million dollar reward for anyone who can come foreward and 'prove' any paranormal power.


Maybe you wish to play with him?



No one has been able to claim that reward yet.


Maybe they choose their playmates differently than you???



Remaining logical means examining credible evidence and research and drawing the most logical conclusions from that.


Or experiencing the "phenomenon" yourself!



Now, is this gentleman credible?


Why are you looking at the gentleman, look at his logic!



Does he have a degree in astrophysics? Is he the head of NASA?


Yes you're right, for if his name was NASA, he'd surely have all the answers! ;)

Not true! Don't be deceived!



Do you know anything about him that would give his conjectures any validity whatsoever?


I know his logic! As well as others!



No credible researcher in the world would come out and say that a squiggly light across a photograph is indisputable proof on Extraterrestrial Intelligence because they know it would be irresponsible at best, and dishonest at it's worst.


This is your opinion, and just look at the trail you've made above, it's based on illogic and emotional hatred to those who do not agree with you!

Even down to the point that if they do not wear a certain name tag, or work at a certain place, that you will not consider them "worthy".

You have shown yourself to have quite the "ego-based" disposition!

Thanks for allowing me to observe this!







This thread is all about that.... and you, me and anyone reading this thread knows it. It's not any different than evangelicals trying to pass off creationism as science, and pretending the church isn't behind it. Only this gets even flakier if that's possible. So, again, since this is a public forum I'll keep it right here where it belongs.

[Euphoric]

space amoebas, whoa

[Euphoric]

space amoebas, whoa

that would mean like
there could be a whole ecosystem.. :eek:

[Hamlet]

Sorry ate, flippant snipes don't constitute rational arguments.

No one would love to see real evidence of something extraordinary more than me, but bullshit claims don't cut it. You're close on the emotional hatred remark though, but not for people who don't agree with me. If someone doesn't agree with me and can prove himself correct, I have no problem changing my opinion and agreeing with him. It's fakers, con-men and bullshit artists who bring out the disgust in me. I hold back any emotional distain for the mentally ill as I realize they are not well.

[ate]

No one would love to see real evidence of something extraordinary more than me.


It's there, focus and you'll see it, don't focus and you're not going to get a thing.



If someone doesn't agree with me and can prove himself correct.


There's nothing to prove with you.

[Hamlet]

Sorry again ate, but you're just not holding down your end of a rational debate with all these vague quips. In fact they're quit telling that there's just not a logical argument behind them. Present a reasonable argument and some valid evidence and I assure you it will be considered fairly.

The New Age guruspeak doesn't go very far with anyone who can see through the smokescreen though. It works on those young enough, dumb enough, or wanting to believe badly enough I guess.

[ate]

Sorry again ate, but you're just not holding down your end of a rational debate with all these vague quips.


Call them what you want, but look harder and you'll see that I have, you're seeing what you want to see, that's not my business nor my duty to change.