Judgement

[afghooey]

This is the source of my greatest confusion when it comes to the diestic Christian god.

If God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent... if he transcends time... if he created the earth and stars and breathed his own life into us (essentially making us extentions of himself).... why would he have any need to judge?

If God is perfect, and we are extentions of God, then wouldn't God just be judging himself whenever he judges us?

[harris7]

and Omnibenevolent

More so, he could never create a world that isn't the best possible.

[JunkYard]

Creation is perfect the way it is, Harris. Man is not, yet the not is relative to value, and moral. Perhaps we are perfect, only embrace the things that destroy within, as well as without?

Judgement is in the eye of the beholder, me thinks...


Much Love,

[afghooey]

Okay, let's assume that the reason God isn't in plain view right now is this test of free will that you speak of. If God were around, that would take away our choice of not believing in him, right?

Well, won't those who are chosen as worthy, as you say, lose their free will to not believe in God as soon as they've 'ascended' into his presence? Won't they have lost that free will for the rest of eternity? And won't the people who are burning in hell have lost that free will too? Once we reach that point, the only difference between us having had free will from the beginning and not having had it will be that a good many of god's beloved children will be burning in eternal misery. This just doesn't make sense to me at all.

If God is all those things I mentioned above -- allpowerful and omniscient, etc. -- then it is he who has created this world of chaos and confusion and hatred and fear. Even if man is the source of evil, god is the source of man, and therefore God is also the source of evil. How can we say that God encompasses all, and yet that we are separate, lower creatures that must be judged? How can we be separate from God if God is completely transcendent? And if we are a part of God, why would he choose to judge and punish himself?

[JunkYard]

Hell = Darkened heart (fear, anger, jealousy, bitterness, violence, insecurity, etc.) Eternal?

Heaven = Lighted heart (Full with Love) Eternal?

God = Choice

Judgement = Beholder thereof (Self punished - Self saved)


Free will, and my understanding of Gods "judgement".



I posted this in another thread, but thought it was relevent here, also..

The following is a section of Essential Buddhism by Jack MaGuire, page 27:

"A big tough samurai one went to see a little monk. In a voice accustomed to meeting with obedience, the samurai said, "Monk, teach me about heaven and hell."
The monk looked up at this mighty warrior and replied in a voice of utter contempt, "Teach you about heaven and hell? I couldn't teach you about anything. You're filthy. You stink. Your sword is rusty. You're a disgrace to the samurai class! Get out of my sight!"
The samurai was speechless with rage. His muscles bulged. His face got red. He swung his sword high above his head, preparing to slay the monk.

"That is hell," the monk said softly.

The samurai froze. Suddenly he was overwhelmed by the compassion of this tiny, defenseless man who had just risked death to give his teaching. As he slowly lowered his sword, he was filled with gratitude and wonder.

"That is heaven," the monk said softly."



Much Love,

[afghooey]

Awesome post, JunkYard. :)

[JunkYard]

Love to you, afghooey...

[afghooey]

Right back at ya. ^^

[afghooey]

Thanks United. :thumbsup: I hope my post didn't come off as offensive or anything (sometimes it's hard to avoid that when discussing religious matters). I'm just trying to get a wider scope on this subject for myself and others who might have the same confusion, since I just don't understand some peoples' takes on it.

Anyhow, I appreciate the time everyone took to reply to this. :jointsmile: Thanks guys.

[Hamlet]

Ya hit on something there that the fire n' brimstone 'zoids don't ever think about, or at least don't like to think about. If a perfect God started a project called 'Earth and Man' to keep him busy, why would it be all fucked up? Couldn't a god set up his hobby to where it ran a whole lot smoother than having to judge and burn a few billion souls?

If he gave man 'free will' why would he make that will anything less than perfect? If there was and is a god, somewhere along the lines, there's no getting around the fact that ultimately, He's responsible for all the evil as well as all the good.

Life feeds on life, therefore all life is a struggle for domination and power. We didn't set it up that way, so if there is a god, he's the one responsible for the order of things and its consequences. Every creepy,crawly thing down here is just doing the best it can to get by and survive. Loftier virtues are a luxury of those who've reached a level of dominance and are not so pressured by the struggle. Throw that 'free will' in a more deperate situation and all those virtues will go right out the window.

Emotions such as greed and fear are no more than just survival mechanisms just like all the warm n' fuzzy ones we think of as virtues. We're stuck here in a mechanism of Cause and Effect--a cosmic watch ticking away and doing it's own thing. 'Judging' how it operates and the behavior of the pieces of protoplasm caught in the mechanism is as absurd as a child passing moral judgements on ants in an antfarm.

[Big Bad Brit]

The whole bible is based on carrot and stick psychology.

Do good you get rewarded.
Do bad you burn in hell.

The choice isn't a choice at all it's an ultimatum.

Religion is another control thing just because people believe a set of stories from 2000 years ago .

Churches and crosses go against the will of your god.
Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water." (See also Lev. 26:1, Deut. 27:15)

[Stemis516]

the ignorance of alot of people just blows my mind

thank you junk yard for at least using ur head

im not saying one way is right and another is wrong but to say something like the fact that evil exists proves god is false is just one of the dumbest things ive ever heard and proves that you people have no understanding of the definition of God and what free will is

the bottom line is yes, it is an ultimatum...a choice, but a final choice...perosnally i dont believe u haev to accept jesus to be saved like the bible says but there is a universal set of morals aka right and wrong that we all need to follow to the best of our abilities and that determines where we end up

just use ur head people, dont be ignorant and make urselves look like dumb kids

[Big Bad Brit]

IMO dumb is believing the bible.

[Stemis516]

fair enough

i sort of agree with u accept i would say i think it is dumb when born agains take everything in the bible literally

personally i examine the bible for what it is...a story told by many people over 2000+ years ago, recognizing it has been changed alot since then...people cant even decide which translation is right to this day...the facts dont have to all make sense or be 100% accurate however...what matters is the basic overall message....Do good...plain and simple.....we were given life and the freedom to make choices...what we do is up to us and God wants us to do good with it

what i do know however is that there is alot of evidence that supports a God...the one of the bible??? no one knows for sure

also, jesus was an historical person...son of god??? once again no one knows for sure, but to me its not important...his message was what was important....it all goes back to doing good

also i think there is evidence for a universal moral code...i believe certain things are objectively wrong or right no matter who you are or what you believe and i think the message in the bible for the most part does a good job of explaining this right and wrong

u may be quick to denounce this last fact but if your wife was getting raped or your family was threatend by some crazy dude then u agree with me if u try to stop him....if u dont believe there is a set code of right and wrong then you have no right to tell him to stop because he can make his own morals if there is no preset definition

but hey, just my two cents and in the end, my opinion...only time will tell

[Stemis516]

Who you calling a dumb kid.... Just read what I posted, I never said it disproves God's existence but it is a well known philosophical arguement known as the inconsitent triangle. Don't get rude, it's a discussion.



well known...maybe....but it doesnt make sense

God gave us free will and that right there blows ur arguement out of the water....if God wanted to he could make the world perfect and there would be no evil...but whats the point...we would all be robots, given no freedom or choices to make

[JunkYard]

Ya hit on something there that the fire n' brimstone 'zoids don't ever think about, or at least don't like to think about. If a perfect God started a project called 'Earth and Man' to keep him busy, why would it be all fucked up? Couldn't a god set up his hobby to where it ran a whole lot smoother than having to judge and burn a few billion souls?

If he gave man 'free will' why would he make that will anything less than perfect? If there was and is a god, somewhere along the lines, there's no getting around the fact that ultimately, He's responsible for all the evil as well as all the good.

Life feeds on life, therefore all life is a struggle for domination and power. We didn't set it up that way, so if there is a god, he's the one responsible for the order of things and its consequences. Every creepy,crawly thing down here is just doing the best it can to get by and survive. Loftier virtues are a luxury of those who've reached a level of dominance and are not so pressured by the struggle. Throw that 'free will' in a more deperate situation and all those virtues will go right out the window.

Sure, the Bible states that God did create Evil, so what does this mean? (Evil is a relative term) It's not about punishment; it's about learning how to live, and find satisfaction in life. Life doesn't have to be about domination and power, Hamlet; we choose to make it such. (Theres that free will again) We [mankind] are the dominant, therefor will have been given an opportunity to embrace virtue or vice. We will all stumble a bit when free will presents a 'more desparate situation', particularly in the world we live in now. But, virtue does not have to go out the window. If you embrace her, she will keep your path. Czech out Proverbs...


Emotions such as greed and fear are no more than just survival mechanisms just like all the warm n' fuzzy ones we think of as virtues. We're stuck here in a mechanism of Cause and Effect--a cosmic watch ticking away and doing it's own thing. 'Judging' how it operates and the behavior of the pieces of protoplasm caught in the mechanism is as absurd as a child passing moral judgements on ants in an antfarm.

We don't judge the pieces of protoplasm, we discern the mechnism, and decide for ourselves the right path. Greed, and fear are all emotions each person has experienced, yet do they satisfy? One would think money would satisfy, or more abundance of the material, but it doesn't. Why? Because satisfaction can only be found within the self by way of virtue; material wealth is just the cherry.

Love, or what you call a 'warm fuzzy' virtue is more than that, it is Life in a Spirit, and our source of satisfaction within the mechanism. We choose virtue or vice; it's that simple. I wonder why Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to find the kingdom of heaven? I think it is because of vice. Even so, Faith can move mountains, one only need be mindful of what he/she embraces, and on what course he/she sets his heart.

I don't know if the world will ever change, Hamlet, and it doesn't matter. We choose our destiny, we choose our paths, and in the end, we choose virtue or vice, heaven or hell, life or death, satisfation or discontent, the Spiritual or carnal...It's all in the heart of Man.

The source of "virtue", "heaven", "Life", "Satisfaction", and "Spirit" is Love...

Can a person attain these things w/o belief in a God, or Jesus? My answer is yes! If one does not believe in God, then the ultimatum is infact a choice, as there would be nothing other than creation/Life itself providing such a thing.

Ultimatum or Choice...you decide, as it doesn't change the reality of the situation we've found ourselves in.


Much Love,

[JunkYard]

Your post shows how little you understand about the Bible.

People - without evil, there is no good. Without dark, there is no light. Without open, there is no closed! Everything must have an opposite!

Good and evil are both relative terms for condition of the heart, or seat of soul. Both exist within each person, as we see fit to percieve them. They effect our emotions either in a positive mannner or negative, which is why they are completely subjective, yet we are creatures of sense, and thrive off these emotions; we are preconditioned to feel the effects of each. Free will allows us to choose our condition of soul, and experience that which we choose to cling to in life.

The door is open, the light is on, and the good is always within grasp. Yet, we need to experience evil to understand the good, and we need to experience the darkness to understand the light. I think God [if he exist] is a just God for this very reason. (Free will)



Much Love,