To the science majors/scientists/science geeks out there...

[iwantFUEGO]

i was sitting in my genetics class today and i realized...

God (or whatever creator you believe in) must have been one hell of a chemist.

Is anyone else as fascinated as I am by how life works?

Most people dont realize that the only reason they exist is because of chemical reactions.... Chemical reactions that are so infinite and specific that anyone who says that this all happened by a "big bang" is a total ignoramus.

I dont mean to offend anyone...but,

Life (as it exists) was designed so intricately, you cant say that some genius didnt create it... whether you choose to call him God or not.

Somethin' for you all to think about.
Peace

[187]

so your saying a genious created the universe? yea thats more plausible.

[iwantFUEGO]

???

thats not what im saying...

and since i easily pick up sarcasm i will say that was a very weak attempt at a refuting arguement.

[iwantFUEGO]

ok since most people arent science majors i will give you a watered down example of what im talking about.

The only reason these objects we call our bodies know how to grow is because of a molecule called Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) that exists in many copies in every cell that makes up our bodies.

lets break it down.

Deoxyribose, which is a sugar derived from ribose (which is basically a carbon-oxygen ring)

Purine/Pyrimidine base, which is another ring with electronegative atoms to induce hydrogen bonding so the double strand can exist stabley (coincidence?)

Phosphodiester backbone, which is very stable and very negative, allowing it to regulated by postive amino acids (argenine & lysine) by condensing and relaxing the DNA. This is BASICALLY how gene expression is regulated... if anyone is more interested i will explain further.... (ever wonder why we all start from one cell, but as we grow our eye cells and our toe nail cells are completely different?)

This is just one example, but a good one to show those who dont know that life is made of chemistry...

Now who would like to tell me that all this just happened because of a huge explosion?

[psychocat]

All life can be broken down into mathematical formulas however it is simply a case of HUMAN thinking that allows us the arrogance to believe we know anything for sure.
God or whatever you choose to call it is a creation of the human mind to try to give answers to an unanswerable question."Someone or something must've made this" is only a thought a human would have and is probably the stupidest thought ever since we can't even concieve of the complexity of the thing that does our thinking for us ... the BRAIN.
The BIG BANG theory is scientist attempts to quantify something they barely understand.
Knowledge is like water , it is useless to try to fill a gallon jug with ten gallons of water.

[iwantFUEGO]

All life can be broken down into mathematical formulas however it is simply a case of HUMAN thinking that allows us the arrogance to believe we know anything for sure.
God or whatever you choose to call it is a creation of the human mind to try to give answers to an unanswerable question."Someone or something must've made this" is only a thought a human would have and is probably the stupidest thought ever since we can't even concieve of the complexity of the thing that does our thinking for us ... the BRAIN.
The BIG BANG theory is scientist attempts to quantify something they barely understand.
Knowledge is like water , it is useless to try to fill a gallon jug with ten gallons of water.

actually we understand alot more than you obviously believe... maybe YOU dont understand it.

we have physics and chemistry down to a science my friend... its not just a "mathematical explanation".

this is a thread about the complexity of biological life... please dont turn it into a "God bashing" one.

Wheres birdgirl? she'll shed some light on this i'm sure.

[midlifecrisis]

A math teacher from my youth once sidelined his discussion on theroy vs. law to ponder the thought of taking all the parts of a fine swiss watch and placing them into a large shoebox and then shake.....Now how long before all those parts fall into place and you have a working watch???????

I think this is what your getting at...is it possible for the watch (life) to assemble itself through random movements...perhaps, but more likely to have been put together.....Well at least I would not shake a box for billions of years just to see what time it is........

[flamingskullballs]

i believe we are as close to a god as there can be

and so is a squirrel

cause were, literally, different parts of one concious

and all that we see is our concious

all that we FEEL is our concious

and the concious isnt in what we can see or feel, in fact, it isnt in anything at all

[MFer]

I totally agree.

Everything just comes together so fucking perfectly. The food chain, all the body systems.


And to imagine, when you break it down, we're all made up of EXTREMELY small particles we call Atoms, which is even smaller when you break it into the Protrons, Neutrons, and Electrons.

[psychocat]

Since I am a chemist you really are taking a lot for granted.
You miss the point .
The simple limitations of our own abilities make it impossible to accept that we cannot answer some very basic questions.
OK scientist tell me (NO THEORIES ONLY FACTS WILL BE ACCEPTED)

What wiped out the dinosaurs?
What is real ?
How many different species are there on this planet ? Don't forget new ones are discovered all the time .
Why do people feel they need to believe that some force created us and everything ?
Why couldn't we all be figments of our own imagination ?
Why couldn't we simply have popped into existence?
Maybe you would know if you were insane and imagining everything and maybe you would be so deluded that you believed what was in your mind but in reality it could all be a dream.

Get where I'm coming from yet ??
Science can't, nor do I believe it ever will be able to answer all questions.
Our human limits make us prone to mistakes and on numerous occasions science has had to admit to getting it wrong.

[iwantFUEGO]

A math teacher from my youth once sidelined his discussion on theroy vs. law to ponder the thought of taking all the parts of a fine swiss watch and placing them into a large shoebox and then shake.....Now how long before all those parts fall into place and you have a working watch???????

I think this is what your getting at...is it possible for the watch (life) to assemble itself through random movements...perhaps, but more likely to have been put together.....Well at least I would not shake a box for billions of years just to see what time it is........

WOW thats fucking awesome! thankyou this makes it much easier for me now.

basically the watch will NOT assemble itself inside the shoebox, obviously, same thing goes for life.

What I'm saying is not that life does not assemble itself, because it does. There are many parts or biological life that self assemble (such as viruses).

Viruses are made of DNA (or RNA) and a protein capsule. If you throw all those ingredients into a test tube... you will have viruses my friend, its a fact thats been proven.

Many other proteins that our bodies sythesize also self assemble. The reason they self assemble (and the reason ANYTHING happens on this earth) is simply because of the PHYSICS of the elements.

Now think about how many chemical systems make up your body...

Done thinking?

If you thought of EVERYTHING, then you are right. The elements present on this earth have been designed to follow certain rules.
Then, based on these rules, WHOLE BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS exist, such as hormones.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I'm frustrated because its hard to explain, and it doesnt do it justice to only give one example. EVERYTHING that goes on in your body, and EVERYTHING that makes up your body is made of elements that opperate a certain way because they must follow rules.

Now tell me we werent designed by someone or something.
Now tell me that we all happened by accident.

[iwantFUEGO]

Since I am a chemist you really are taking a lot for granted.
You miss the point .
The simple limitations of our own abilities make it impossible to accept that we cannot answer some very basic questions.
OK scientist tell me (NO THEORIES ONLY FACTS WILL BE ACCEPTED)

What wiped out the dinosaurs?
What is real ?
How many different species are there on this planet ? Don't forget new ones are discovered all the time .
Why do people feel they need to believe that some force created us and everything ?
Why couldn't we all be figments of our own imagination ?
Why couldn't we simply have popped into existence?
Maybe you would know if you were insane and imagining everything and maybe you would be so deluded that you believed what was in your mind but in reality it could all be a dream.

Get where I'm coming from yet ??
Science can't, nor do I believe it ever will be able to answer all questions.
Our human limits make us prone to mistakes and on numerous occasions science has had to admit to getting it wrong.

dinosaurs could have died from anything, just like something could easily kill all humans tommorow...

All different species come from mutations in genetic material, which by the way, is very universal across all species.

You cant just be a chemist.... you have to apply your chemistry knowledge.

[flamingskullballs]

basically the watch will NOT assemble itself inside the shoebox, obviously, same thing goes for life.
oh no, it will

EVERYTHING has a chance

there is even a chance that it will assemble itself on the first shake

[MFer]

^True, but that chance is so insignificantly small it's basically popped out of existance.

[iwantFUEGO]

There is no chance about it...

Molecules interact with eachother because of their electronegative/electropositive qualities. Just think of a magnet...only think of all different kinds of magents that you can assemble together to make even more specific magnets that only bind to certain magnets...

Now take that idea, and multiply it by 1,000,000... and you now have modern biochemistry.

Yea, that shit definately happened by chance.

[Inferius]

^True, but that chance is so insignificantly small it's basically popped out of existance.

Not true, it's called infinity and every single moment of it every possibility is rolling it's dice.
The watch obviously fell into place eventually, and here we are.
If the doors of perception were cleaned,
everything would appear
as it is- infinite.
-William Blake

[iwantFUEGO]

Not true, it's called infinity and every single moment of it every possibility is rolling it's dice.
The watch obviously fell into place eventually, and here we are.
If the doors of perception were cleaned,
everything would appear
as it is- infinite.
-William Blake

Everybody keeps trying to prove me wrong with some theoretical statement.

Were talking about science people. Shit has been proven and explained.

Sheesh... this isnt the book of proverbs...

There is no "dice rolling" that has to do with biochemistry.

[chris420]

Einstein believed that everything in this physical life is predictible by the calculation of various factors that we cannot put into consideration due to our limited senses, even rolling dices. ''God never plays at dice"
Chance is absolute, there are no impossibilities.

[souldistortion]

Because of this website and movie... http://www.privilegedplanet.com/ I now believe in a god.

It gives irrefutable evidence on how privileged the planet earth is. and how minute the chance is, that a planet with the specifications of earth, really is.

After watching it, I was blown away... truly, blown away. I didn't even know 90% of the shit on there. The way the earths gravitational field PERFECTLY shields us from some of the largest meteors in cosmic history just blew me away. and SO SO SO MUCH more.

Design is all around us. Look at your hands and fingers, DNA etc. Look at horses for instance. You going to tell me that that was not designed for a human being to use. Perfect bone structure to support human weight. To say that everything came about by random chance just seems even more and more stupid to me every day that i live my life.

Its also kinda funny that the only place in the universe that a solar eclipse is visible... is the only place that there are observers. For some reason our Earthly location is extraordinarily well suited to allow us to peer into the heavens and discover its secrets.

"God is NOT Imaginary. It takes true faith to KNOW God.

Most people must see to believe, true visionaries believe to see"

It actually doesent take much "faith" to know god at all. I mean, if there is just pure evidence in front of my face, especially scientific, ill have "faith" for sure.

[psychocat]

So you are saying that chaos has order and there are no chances so therefore how can you know wether what you are doing is choice or preordained and if it's preordained then everything is already decided?

You fail to see your own inadequate statements really only enhance the idea in my mind that you aren't grasping the possibility of anything other than what you "believe".

Step outside and get the big picture of how insignificant you and all humans are.

More questions....

How does it feel to be a cat ?
What are ghosts ?
How long is a piece of string ?

Who cares ?

Live life don't try to believe you or anyone will ever know everything.

[souldistortion]

Live life don't try to believe you or anyone will ever know everything.

LOL

[iwantFUEGO]

Because of this website and movie... http://www.privilegedplanet.com/ I now believe in a god.

It gives irrefutable evidence on how privileged the planet earth is. and how minute the chance is, that a planet with the specifications of earth, really is.

After watching it, I was blown away... truly, blown away. I didn't even know 90% of the shit on there. The way the earths gravitational field PERFECTLY shields us from some of the largest meteors in cosmic history just blew me away. and SO SO SO MUCH more.

Design is all around us. Look at your hands and fingers, DNA etc. Look at horses for instance. You going to tell me that that was not designed for a human being to use. Perfect bone structure to support human weight. To say that everything came about by random chance just seems even more and more stupid to me every day that i live my life.

Its also kinda funny that the only place in the universe that a solar eclipse is visible... is the only place that there are observers. For some reason our Earthly location is extraordinarily well suited to allow us to peer into the heavens and discover its secrets.

"God is NOT Imaginary. It takes true faith to KNOW God.

Most people must see to believe, true visionaries believe to see"

It actually doesent take much "faith" to know god at all. I mean, if there is just pure evidence in front of my face, especially scientific, ill have "faith" for sure.

You are a wise man.


So you are saying that chaos has order and there are no chances so therefore how can you know wether what you are doing is choice or preordained and if it's preordained then everything is already decided?

You fail to see your own inadequate statements really only enhance the idea in my mind that you aren't grasping the possibility of anything other than what you "believe".

Step outside and get the big picture of how insignificant you and all humans are.

More questions....

How does it feel to be a cat ?
What are ghosts ?
How long is a piece of string ?

Who cares ?

Live life don't try to believe you or anyone will ever know everything.

I dont fail to do anything. You think i forgot about the choas theory? You think i dont realize entropy? What is such a wonder is that biochemistry came together on this earth in an environment where entropy exists. Thats why it must have been designed my friend.

[tahoe58]

go to video.google, and search intelligent design....and blow ur mind even more.....so much for natural selection....I am a scientist, and brought up on the theory of natural selection....but there are holes in it!!

[iwantFUEGO]

this ones for you dice rollers....:clap: :clap: :clap:

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[flamingskullballs]

If the doors of perception were cleaned,
its cleansed, actually....remember, William Blake was born in 1757

and all chances have the same chance, and that chance is definate...its just a matter of time

[iwantFUEGO]

its cleansed, actually....remember, William Blake was born in 1757

and all chances have the same chance, and that chance is definate...its just a matter of time

Chance is theoretical... credible only mathematically.

(not saying its false or anything) :D

[Polymirize]

Life (as it exists) was designed so intricately, you cant say that some genius didnt create it... whether you choose to call him God or not.


I have sudden reservations concerning your abilities to participate in the 'scientific' process.

[iwantFUEGO]

Point is, just because statistically (with small numbers), you have 1/6 chance of rolling one dice and getting 2...doesnt mean you will...

same with large numbers... If you shook the box for a trillian billion years straight, doesnt mean that the watch is going to assemble itself.

Theres a chance... but it doesnt mean that chance is definate..

[iwantFUEGO]

I have sudden reservations concerning your abilities to participate in the 'scientific' process.

LOL get over it, theres nothing wrong with believing in a designer. The only person who is closed minded here is you...thinking its not possible.

I'm not trying to preach to anyone.

All im saying is that after almost 4 years of studying this crazy shit... my mind is blown and theres no way i believe that it all happened by chance.

And if you think im not qualified... go ahead... try me, I'm always up for a debate.

Probably didnt read one thing i wrote besides my first post... or i cant see why you would say that.... sorry.

[Inferius]

Point is, just because statistically (with small numbers), you have 1/6 chance of rolling one dice and getting 2...doesnt mean you will...

same with large numbers... If you shook the box for a trillian billion years straight, doesnt mean that the watch is going to assemble itself.

Theres a chance... but it doesnt mean that chance is definate..

When you add infinity to the equation,
all chances are definate.
Why settle for one answer? Why do you immediately assume someone "created" our reality? The answer is only an idea of what could be, what makes god any more relevant than any other theoretical possibility?
Nothing.

[NextLineIsMine]

dude youre taking a biology class which is cool but now that youve learned a little about DNA and precursors dont be taking this attitude that you now understand science.

I always debated that too, everythings so intricate someone had to sit down and design it. 6 Billion years is a fucking loooooong time and since those lipids made the 1st cell miniscule changes have happend constantly that over that very long time add up. Every generation we're a tiny bit more complex.

The big bang is a well thought out concept with observable proof to show for it (6 billion year old light for example). Anyways what made god?

[Polymirize]

LOL get over it, theres nothing wrong with believing in a designer. The only person who is closed minded here is you...thinking its not possible.

Sure it's possible. Anything is possible, isn't that how the saying goes? I'm almost certain it is, "anything is possible".

I'm not saying you haven't done your time sniffing various chemicals and the like. I'm just curious, do you even know what science is?


Besides, your entire watch analogy sucks. Nobody thinks watches evolve ex nihilo. Obviously watches evolve in stages, so first you have a flat face, possibly with a stylus to cast a shadow from the sun. At a later time, watches with markings on the face to better read the passage of time might become more viable. And with the major evolutionary gap of machinary, watches evolve into their more recognizable forms that we continue to see on earth today. Really, shaking a box... don't you know how these things work?

[bavet]

God rules! 'nough said :)

[D1me]

ok since most people arent science majors i will give you a watered down example of what im talking about.

The only reason these objects we call our bodies know how to grow is because of a molecule called Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) that exists in many copies in every cell that makes up our bodies.

lets break it down.

Deoxyribose, which is a sugar derived from ribose (which is basically a carbon-oxygen ring)

Purine/Pyrimidine base, which is another ring with electronegative atoms to induce hydrogen bonding so the double strand can exist stabley (coincidence?)

Phosphodiester backbone, which is very stable and very negative, allowing it to regulated by postive amino acids (argenine & lysine) by condensing and relaxing the DNA. This is BASICALLY how gene expression is regulated... if anyone is more interested i will explain further.... (ever wonder why we all start from one cell, but as we grow our eye cells and our toe nail cells are completely different?)

This is just one example, but a good one to show those who dont know that life is made of chemistry...

Now who would like to tell me that all this just happened because of a huge explosion?

good point, i have wondered this many times, in fact i renounced god a few years ago. but now i realize that organized religion is the problem, i now just try to do the right thing and help others as best as possible. unafilliated faith is what i call it, not sure if im still considered athiest

[iwantFUEGO]

dude youre taking a biology class which is cool but now that youve learned a little about DNA and precursors dont be taking this attitude that you now understand science.

Good job, you are right... i did take a biology class... been taking them for three years... What does that have to do with anything??
The only thing i'm arguing is that the system is too inticrate to have created itself... explain to me how that goes against science??

"Now that youve learned a little about DNA"

Pardon me but that was a real jackass thing to say. I HAVE learned alot about DNA and will have a rebuttal for any arguement you can pose... Try me :D

Sorry if i sound arrogant but i guess you can say that remark brought it out of me.


Sure it's possible. Anything is possible, isn't that how the saying goes? I'm almost certain it is, "anything is possible".

I'm not saying you haven't done your time sniffing various chemicals and the like. I'm just curious, do you even know what science is?


Besides, your entire watch analogy sucks. Nobody thinks watches evolve ex nihilo. Obviously watches evolve in stages, so first you have a flat face, possibly with a stylus to cast a shadow from the sun. At a later time, watches with markings on the face to better read the passage of time might become more viable. And with the major evolutionary gap of machinary, watches evolve into their more recognizable forms that we continue to see on earth today. Really, shaking a box... don't you know how these things work?

The watch in the box idea wasn't even mine... someone else said that and i used it to better explain myself...
Besides, it makes perfect sense if you just read ALL the posts.
Watch evolves in stages? stylus in the sun? what are you talking about?

[iwantFUEGO]

God rules! 'nough said :)

Hey i have an african grey!
its amazing how intelligent they are.

[iwantFUEGO]

The big bang is a well thought out concept with observable proof to show for it (6 billion year old light for example).

Maybe you can explain how we on earth see 6 billion year old light.

6 billion year old light would be 6 billion lightyears away.

We would somehow have to develope a new technology that allows us to see faster than the speed of light.
THEN
we would have to sit there for 6 billion years just to catch up with the damn light.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I love it when people bring in the "6 billion year old light"

[Polymirize]

The watch in the box idea wasn't even mine... someone else said that and i used it to better explain myself...
Besides, it makes perfect sense if you just read ALL the posts.
Watch evolves in stages? stylus in the sun? what are you talking about?

a stylus is the shadow-casting part of a sundial. I suppose its only important if we're trying to understand the role of time-pieces through history, of which a watch is merely the most recent form. Think about it.
I know the watch in a box example isn't yours, because its rather tirelessly trumped around by Design theorists. Apparently it's the best they've got. How about you?
As to reading all the posts, why would I need to do that when what I take issue with was stated in your very first post? Or do you contradict yourself throughout the thread?

[iwantFUEGO]

That great that you know the history of how we keep time. All I was saying is that we arent even on that subject right now...

I read all your posts...i dont see why you wouldn't...
If your gonna debate with someone, you should probably read what theyre saying to you. (Just common sense)

I dont contradict myself at all... i think ive been carrying a solid point thru out the whole thread....

[wonderbear]

i believe in a god, but i also will admit that i cannot prove that god exists; i do look around the world and think "this looks like design", the beauty of it, beyond the biological i see things in human nature that to me echo the bible

now, given infinate chance it's understandable that "anything" could happen, atleast anything that is possible; whether it's actually possible to create a living thing from nonliving molecules is not for sure; the law of biogenesis says it's not possible, but again that's just a "law" trying to define what we see

i respect the humility of realizing that one cannot truly imagine god completely when we comprehend so little about our own world; i do believe god has reached out to us though, personally

[iwantFUEGO]

im not even answering a BS post anymore...

This thread was addressed to scientists... not athiest theorists.

you arent even addressing the important point here...

just chiming in on small details here and there in an attempt to impress someone with your theoretical BS on how biochemistry must involve chance...

well your not impressin me...

[wonderbear]

Anyways what made god?

a good and hard question, i believe god exists, ouside of time and space, but I AM ADMITTING that this is a BELIEF, i can't prove it to you, obviously


but everyone, please consider the harder question, and this is it: EITHER you have an infinite creator, OR you have infinite MATTER

big bang is clever because you give everyone a picture of "nothing" exploding, but it's not supposed to be nothing, it's supposed to be an incredibly small, incredible massive singularity of matter, and it exploded; the theory works for people because it puts matter into such a small amount that you're allowed to forget about it, but what happened BEFORE the singularity???? why did it happen the way it did?

so, for there to be existance, you've got to have something infinite, either matter or a "god"

now why is god the way he is? where did he come from? why are things teh way they are? these are questions that i just have no answer for

i believe certain things, but i have the humility (yes i'm arrogant enough to claim to have humility :) ) enough to entertain doubt, to REALIZE WITHOUT A DOUBT, that i don't know everything, in fact i know so little it's practically nothign

[iwantFUEGO]

i believe in a god, but i also will admit that i cannot prove that god exists; i do look around the world and think "this looks like design", the beauty of it, beyond the biological i see things in human nature that to me echo the bible

now, given infinate chance it's understandable that "anything" could happen, atleast anything that is possible; whether it's actually possible to create a living thing from nonliving molecules is not for sure; the law of biogenesis says it's not possible, but again that's just a "law" trying to define what we see

i respect the humility of realizing that one cannot truly imagine god completely when we comprehend so little about our own world; i do believe god has reached out to us though, personally

I'm not trying to preach God... believe what you want, you know? :stoned:

All im saying is that we had to have been designed... were just too intricate to just one day become us all of a sudden in a big bang...

I'm just giving that "designer" his props because he must obviously be a "genius" (God or not ;) ) and a master chemist.

Who knows. i know the possibilities are endless. God could be a group of beings from an alien civilization across the universe... i dont know... no one knows.

ALL I SAID IS HE MUSTA BEEN ONE HELL OF A CHEMIST.

[wonderbear]

i wasn't trying to say what you were trying to preach one way or the other, i was stating my own standpoint

[mrdevious]

First of all, I'd like to say once and for all that the Watchbox analogy is bogus. You even earlier described it as "shaking a trillion pieces in the box" to compare it to life. There's no part in evolutionary theory that suggests we took the billions of parts of our genetic code and shook them all in a "box" till it just magically fell together.

Now I believe the reason Polymerize was questioning your "scientific method" is because you're making mass leaps in logic, which essentially are:

Life is amazingly complex
we can't explain how it could be that complex
therefor god did it

All you have is a mystery, the knowledge that some process (even the work of god) created the complexity that exists in life today. Then, rather than exploring some possible ideas about these processes, or excepting that you don't have an explanation, you just give the credit to god by default. "can't explain it? god did it!". The idea of an intelligence creating complexity is only a hypothesis, a proposed explanation for the mystery. Just because you lack other explanations, just because humanity can't yet explain everything that happens in the universe and how every process works and exists, doesn't mean your "intelligent designer" hypothesis is suddenly proven right just because we don't know of a better one yet.
Intelligent design doesn't work. All it does is say "I don't know how to explain it", then takes the old theistic texts that claim a god did it, and say "well that proves it". But it proves nothing, just because the explanation fits doesn't mean it's right. I could explain life as existing because some unknown trans-dimensional fluctuation works through processes that affect molecules in a way so as to create the beginnings of life, which could then grow in complexity through evolutionary processes, meanwhile being assisted by these random yet beneficial fluctuations. But I can't say that's proven right, I can only propose it as a hypothesis.

People are obviously mislead, and in this respect ignorant, when they think a non-god universe means nothing but trillions and trillions of accidents all mistakenly happened so as to coincidentally lead to the same end product.

[flamingskullballs]

same with large numbers... If you shook the box for a trillian billion years straight, doesnt mean that the watch is going to assemble itself.

Theres a chance... but it doesnt mean that chance is definate..
oh no, its definate

you forget, time doesnt end (or at least i hope not)

if you have the ability to shake that box till the end of time, its definate

[birdgirl73]

You have been making a solid point throughout, Fuego. And I've been following this thread since earlier. I'm very tired tonight and very emotionally exhausted, which means I'm not really even smart enough to reply with any skill. But what speaks to me--and don't anyone feel the need to argue here; this is just me expressing what I've been thinking as I've been pondering the miracles of biochem and life and molecules and DNA Fuego referenced--is that it makes me very happy to think about the mysteries of the scientific/biochemical universe having had a designer. I'm fully aware that this is likely just me wanting to make sense of something I can't understand. It's also me struggling spiritually right now because of life-and-death circumstances in my life. But I find the idea of a grand design a comforting and pleasing thought. I who was raised to be a doubter and a questioner, a don't-believe-it-till-it's-proven empiricist, and, essentially, a heathen.

When I look at cells and cell division. When I look at how genetic information makes us into what we are. When I look at adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine and how they work together to build people. When I consider human reproduction from haploid and diploid chromosomes to conception to birth. It pleases me to think of these wonderful things as being part of a grand plan, whether I truly buy that intellectually or not. On an emotional/spiritual level, it gives me peace right now.

I've followed you well, Fuego, and I'm glad you had the nerve to stay with this. I'll probably get flamed clear out into next month by the hard-shell scientists. But I know why you think this way about biochem because I do the same thing. Whether we're right or not isn't going to be something we'll ever figure out. I'm sure of that. But I still like thinking about it all.

Keep up the science study, Fuego. I'm glad you wrote this thread. I've enjoyed it.

[iwantFUEGO]

i wasn't trying to say what you were trying to preach one way or the other, i was stating my own standpoint

I wasnt attacking you bro i agree with what your saying.



First of all, I'd like to say once and for all that the Watchbox analogy is bogus. You even earlier described it as "shaking a trillion pieces in the box" to compare it to life. There's no part in evolutionary theory that suggests we took the billions of parts of our genetic code and shook them all in a "box" till it just magically fell together.

Now I believe the reason Polymerize was questioning your "scientific method" is because you're making mass leaps in logic, which essentially are:

Life is amazingly complex
we can't explain how it could be that complex
therefor god did it

All you have is a mystery, the knowledge that some process (even the work of god) created the complexity that exists in life today. Then, rather than exploring some possible ideas about these processes, or excepting that you don't have an explanation, you just give the credit to god by default. "can't explain it? god did it!". The idea of an intelligence creating complexity is only a hypothesis, a proposed explanation for the mystery. Just because you lack other explanations, just because humanity can't yet explain everything that happens in the universe and how every process works and exists, doesn't mean your "intelligent designer" hypothesis is suddenly proven right just because we don't know of a better one yet.
Intelligent design doesn't work. All it does is say "I don't know how to explain it", then takes the old theistic texts that claim a god did it, and say "well that proves it". But it proves nothing, just because the explanation fits doesn't mean it's right. I could explain life as existing because some unknown trans-dimensional fluctuation works through processes that affect molecules in a way so as to create the beginnings of life, which could then grow in complexity through evolutionary processes, meanwhile being assisted by these random yet beneficial fluctuations. But I can't say that's proven right, I can only propose it as a hypothesis.

People are obviously mislead, and in this respect ignorant, when they think a non-god universe means nothing but trillions and trillions of accidents all mistakenly happened so as to coincidentally lead to the same end product.

You make a good point... only I'm not trying to explain how life came together.
No one knows this.

All we can do is observe and study our surrounding and learn as much about it as we can... which is what humans have been doing for thousands of years.

I reiterate... im not preaching god... just a designer of life on earth..... and he/she/it is an incredible chemist.

Thats all

[wonderbear]

First of all, I'd like to say once and for all that the Watchbox analogy is bogus. You even earlier described it as "shaking a trillion pieces in the box" to compare it to life. There's no part in evolutionary theory that suggests we took the billions of parts of our genetic code and shook them all in a "box" till it just magically fell together.

Now I believe the reason Polymerize was questioning your "scientific method" is because you're making mass leaps in logic, which essentially are:

Life is amazingly complex
we can't explain how it could be that complex
therefor god did it

All you have is a mystery, the knowledge that some process (even the work of god) created the complexity that exists in life today. Then, rather than exploring some possible ideas about these processes, or excepting that you don't have an explanation, you just give the credit to god by default. "can't explain it? god did it!". The idea of an intelligence creating complexity is only a hypothesis, a proposed explanation for the mystery. Just because you lack other explanations, just because humanity can't yet explain everything that happens in the universe and how every process works and exists, doesn't mean your "intelligent designer" hypothesis is suddenly proven right just because we don't know of a better one yet.
Intelligent design doesn't work. All it does is say "I don't know how to explain it", then takes the old theistic texts that claim a god did it, and say "well that proves it". But it proves nothing, just because the explanation fits doesn't mean it's right. I could explain life as existing because some unknown trans-dimensional fluctuation works through processes that affect molecules in a way so as to create the beginnings of life, which could then grow in complexity through evolutionary processes, meanwhile being assisted by these random yet beneficial fluctuations. But I can't say that's proven right, I can only propose it as a hypothesis.

People are obviously mislead, and in this respect ignorant, when they think a non-god universe means nothing but trillions and trillions of accidents all mistakenly happened so as to coincidentally lead to the same end product.

good points; what you're saying is really what i'm saying when i say "i can't prove what i believe"

i respect y'all's other viewpoints very much, and am interested hearing them; i've found that as i've grown older, though i still believe what i believe, i recognize more and more my own ignorance

[iwantFUEGO]

You have been making a solid point throughout, Fuego. And I've been following this thread since earlier. I'm very tired tonight and very emotionally exhausted, which means I'm not really even smart enough to reply with any skill. But what speaks to me--and don't anyone feel the need to argue here; this is just me expressing what I've been thinking as I've been pondering the miracles of biochem and life and molecules and DNA Fuego referenced--is that it makes me very happy to think about the mysteries of the scientific/biochemical universe having had a designer. I'm fully aware that this is likely just me wanting to make sense of something I can't understand. It's also me struggling spiritually right now because of life-and-death circumstances in my life. But I find the idea of a grand design a comforting and pleasing thought. I who was raised to be a doubter and a questioner, a don't-believe-it-till-it's-proven empiricist, and, essentially, a heathen.

When I look at cells and cell division. When I look at how genetic information makes us into what we are. When I look at adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine and how they work together to build people. When I consider human reproduction from haploid and diploid chromosomes to conception to birth. It pleases me to think of these wonderful things as being part of a grand plan, whether I truly buy that intellectually or not. On an emotional/spiritual level, it gives me peace right now.

I've followed you well, Fuego, and I'm glad you had the nerve to stay with this. I'll probably get flamed clear out into next month by the hard-shell scientists. But I know why you think this way about biochem because I do the same thing. Whether we're right or not isn't going to be something we'll ever figure out. I'm sure of that. But I still like thinking about it all.

Keep up the science study, Fuego. I'm glad you wrote this thread. I've enjoyed it.

I love you.

Thats exactly what im trying to say.

[wonderbear]

all this thinking is hurting my little brain

[iwantFUEGO]

oh no, its definate

you forget, time doesnt end (or at least i hope not)

if you have the ability to shake that box till the end of time, its definate


Yeah its definate mathematically... ;)

How are you gonna say time is infinite? Time isnt even an actual physical thing. This is like those mathematicians that claim that time travel is possible just because you can measure time in a few physics equations.

[wonderbear]

i thought time was physical, a matter of space and gravity, or some such thing......or somethin


btw: i've no idea what i'm talking about, anyone know what i'm trying to say?

[iwantFUEGO]

Time is a method of measuring our days so humans can keep relative track of their lives.

Time can't exist... its just a measurement of elapsed sunrises and sunsets.

[wonderbear]

i heard different........that you could actually measure time

like if you send someone around the universe and back and they don't age???


......................anyone have an answer to that?

[wonderbear]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

wiki on time, since wikipedia is the great bastion of all eternal knowledge and wisdom :)

i guess it's all debatable like everything else, big surprise

[iwantFUEGO]

i heard different........that you could actually measure time

like if you send someone around the universe and back and they don't age???


......................anyone have an answer to that?


thats a pretty crazy theory...

Figure out a way to go to the end and back and prove it...

you'll be the next age bill gates... a total billionaire/genius.

[wonderbear]

well, i do believe that time is a created aspect, not infinite, but finite; but yeah, i'm not going to be PROVING anythign anytime soon :)

[andruejaysin]

Maybe you can explain how we on earth see 6 billion year old light.

6 billion year old light would be 6 billion lightyears away.

No, it would have been 6 billion lightyears away 6 billion years ago. Not a complex concept, we see light which is coming to us, not going away.

[wonderbear]

what's the whole thing with the "old light" is it that the light we're getting is of a certain wavelength that we know that it came from a long ways away?

or the light reflected from far away planets?

[andruejaysin]

Wavelength of light determines it's color, not it's age. I think maybe you're refering to light which comes from distant stars having a downshift in wave length do to the fact those stars are moving away from us more rapidly than close (in relative terms) stars. The same affect can be observed listening to the sound of a car as it approachs and then passes you. This is called the doppler affect.

[CJBHM52]

the light thing is lightyears. its how far light travels in a year. i dont know how far it is but light travels at 300000000 m/s or somethin around there. so if we were seeing 6 billion light year old light, that means that it was emitted 6 billion years ago or you could say there was a real big bang about 6 billion years ago. and you are asking everyone for "scientific evidence" because youre a scientist, but wheres your scientific evidence? so you told us how dna works or whatever. that doesnt prove what youre sayin. and if you think, if there was really that big of a bang, how many little pieces would come flyin out of there just like earth. and all of those little pieces have been around for 6 billion years. id say theres a good chance that on at least one of those little pieces, everything just happened to fall in order. cause the probability is pretty small. but is it really smaller than 1/(# of pieces from big bang) and evolution is pretty amazing too.

[andruejaysin]

Light travels 186,000 miles per second.

[Reefer Rogue]

Agnosticism ftw.

[Inferius]

Agnosticism ftw.

hell yes.

[souldistortion]

You have been making a solid point throughout, Fuego. And I've been following this thread since earlier. I'm very tired tonight and very emotionally exhausted, which means I'm not really even smart enough to reply with any skill. But what speaks to me--and don't anyone feel the need to argue here; this is just me expressing what I've been thinking as I've been pondering the miracles of biochem and life and molecules and DNA Fuego referenced--is that it makes me very happy to think about the mysteries of the scientific/biochemical universe having had a designer. I'm fully aware that this is likely just me wanting to make sense of something I can't understand. It's also me struggling spiritually right now because of life-and-death circumstances in my life. But I find the idea of a grand design a comforting and pleasing thought. I who was raised to be a doubter and a questioner, a don't-believe-it-till-it's-proven empiricist, and, essentially, a heathen.

When I look at cells and cell division. When I look at how genetic information makes us into what we are. When I look at adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine and how they work together to build people. When I consider human reproduction from haploid and diploid chromosomes to conception to birth. It pleases me to think of these wonderful things as being part of a grand plan, whether I truly buy that intellectually or not. On an emotional/spiritual level, it gives me peace right now.

I've followed you well, Fuego, and I'm glad you had the nerve to stay with this. I'll probably get flamed clear out into next month by the hard-shell scientists. But I know why you think this way about biochem because I do the same thing. Whether we're right or not isn't going to be something we'll ever figure out. I'm sure of that. But I still like thinking about it all.

Keep up the science study, Fuego. I'm glad you wrote this thread. I've enjoyed it.

straight from the most intelligent, logical, and well educated person on this site. im laughing my ass off. im so highh.

[psychocat]

I am certain of one thing :
Those that believe they have all the answers are simply deluding themselves and to never question is to die.

[iwantFUEGO]

This is crazy...

i should have never posted this... people are jumping down my throat accusing me of saying things i didnt.

your attempts to shut me down by placing words in my mouth isnt working.

Im not trying to PROVE anything... anyone who read all my posts would know that very clearly.

Ive reiterated myself almost 7 times throughout the whole thread and im not going to do it again.

Oh and if there was a bing bang.... explain to me... mr genius.... how light is traveling towards us? That was a ridiculous statement that wasnt thought out, because, if everything flew out of one point...then light would only be traveling out.

What we see is the light traveling towards us from distants stars that are traveling in all different directions for whatever reason (explosions, gravity....since theres no matter to cause friction in space).

Birdgirl is very educated you are right... laugh all you want the truth is you know very little about biology or else I am positive that you would atleast accept what is being said here.

What makes us so special?? why arent there organisms that have adapted to survive on mars or even saturn?? they've been around for "billions of years" also... they've had plenty of time also.

This was never meant to be an arguement.... or i woulda posted it in a different forum..
You all need to really take a moment and think about what im trying to say. Read a little about genetics if you have to. Learn a couple things about microbiology and then youll realize that a cell (which is composed of ONLY atoms and no brain) performs all its cellular functions because of one reason.. The PHYSICS of what is made out of.

Now your trying to me tell that you think that our matter wasnt designed to work this way?
It just happened by chance??? =\

[iwantFUEGO]

Agnosticism ftw.

I am not agnostic at all... Thats a perfect example of someone who cant think outside the box

it doesnt have to be either or... possibilities are endless as ive been explaining.

[Reefer Rogue]

I am not agnostic at all... Thats a perfect example of someone who cant think outside the box

it doesnt have to be either or... possibilities are endless as ive been explaining.

It's pretty obvious you're not agnostic =/

I can think outside the box plenty.

You know what else is endless? The debate on whether god exists, it can't be proven, so why dwell. You obviously posted your original post for a reason, what that may be, only you know. I think you posted it to at least try and convince someone, or else what's the point? You're not convincing me though. Learn all the microbiology you want, preach it to whomever you choose, but if people don't agree with you, then you should just accept it.

Now, back to cannabis smoking :)

[iwantFUEGO]

It's pretty obvious you're not agnostic =/

I can think outside the box plenty.

You know what else is endless? The debate on whether god exists, it can't be proven, so why dwell. You obviously posted your original post for a reason, what that may be, only you know. I think you posted it to at least try and convince someone, or else what's the point? You're not convincing me though. Learn all the microbiology you want, preach it to whomever you choose, but if people don't agree with you, then you should just accept it.

Now, back to cannabis smoking :)

your absolutely right about convincing others... which is not my intention...


i was sitting in my genetics class today and i realized...

God (or whatever creator you believe in) must have been one hell of a chemist.

Is anyone else as fascinated as I am by how life works?



I was merely sharing my fascinations...

Unfortunately... some people decided to chime in with their little factoids trying to prove ME wrong, and this led to everyting but a discussion on what was originally proposed.

It just upsets me when all im trying to do is share a fascination of mine and then people refute me with statements that are TOTALLY irrelevant to what were talking about here.
I mean, its obvious that im not just babbling out a bunch of bullshit... so if you want to debate it (which i love doing :) ), atleast come up with something that has some relevance to the topic... and dont put words in my mouth in an attempt to make me look like a dumbass...

Not saying you did that, rogue...;)
Peace

[Reefer Rogue]

Good shit man, life is fascinating.

[TheSmokingMonkey]

I agree, I think life is too complex to be a coincidence.

After all... we all know that life tends towards chaos (principle of entropy) -

But we also know that there are all kinds of complex forms of life everywhere disobeying the law of entropy every second to stay alive (including humans)

So how does that fit together? I say God made us. Who knows which type of god that is, or if any of those religious texts are for real, but I think there are too many beautiful and complicated things in the world to have been just some random freak accident under nobody's control.

[dark0ne]

some say that life arrived here in comets shorty after the earth cooled. tiny microscopic single celled organisims piggybacked in the ice of a comet Land into the ocean.

another theroy is that some of the basic needs for life were here. At the time most of the solar system was still chaotic, and a piece of mars that had broke off in another event slammed into the earth witch caused a catalismic(sp) explosion. Releasing new compounds into the air and water.

[Reefer Rogue]

Hume: "Thus, although God may have made man in his own image, the concept of God is made in man's own image."

[Inferius]

*come closerrrr*...

*cough-weeze*

*closeerrrr*

the secret to life...is....

*cough weeze*

*death rattle, slump*

WHAT IS IT?!
GOD DAMN IT!

[andruejaysin]

Oh and if there was a bing bang.... explain to me... mr genius.... how light is traveling towards us? That was a ridiculous statement that wasnt thought out, because, if everything flew out of one point...then light would only be traveling out. .

What makes us so special?? why arent there organisms that have adapted to survive on mars or even saturn?? they've been around for "billions of years" also... they've had plenty of time also.

I assume that's aimed at me, so I'll try to use small words for you, light from distant stars has nothing to do with the big bang, except to show that the universe must be old enough to allow it to travel to us. On the other hand the universe shows very uniform background x-ray radiation, no matter where you point a radio telescope. Where do you suggest this radiation comes from, if not from the big bang? As for the second question, it appears likely there was life on mars, back when it had an atmosphere. Have you not at some point in your biology education learned life, at least as we understand it, requires liquid water? And that complex, multicellular life requires oxygen? Your argument is often called the "strong anthropomorphic principal" (sorry, big words, but unavoidable). That is to say that because we see a universe in which we can exist, it must therefore have been created for our benefit. The counter argument is simply that we should not be surpized to see around us conditions which allow our existence, to the contrary, it would be very odd indeed should we see otherwise.

[psychocat]

Just cause I like it I have to reference Monty Python.


Galaxy Song Lyrics
Artist: Monty Python
Album: The Meaning Of Life

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.
Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

The last 2 lines require an honest response and from what I've seen I couldn't agree more.

[Polymirize]

Unfortunately... some people decided to chime in with their little factoids trying to prove ME wrong...


I mean, its obvious that im not just babbling out a bunch of bullshit... so if you want to debate it (which i love doing :) ), atleast come up with something that has some relevance to the topic...


and dont put words in my mouth in an attempt to make me look like a dumbass...


"You know what I hate? When people try to join conversations, as opposed to just sitting there passively and listening. I mean, whenever I go to church do you see me challenging the pastor on issues? Hell no.

We can debate, sure. But you're not allowed to point out the flaws in my argument, that's just unfair. And if you do so, I'll ignore your points by claiming their not even relevant."

I don't think anyone else has contributed to making you look like a dumbass man. Take a little personal responsibility.

[andruejaysin]

Clearly he wasn't looking for debate, but for a bunch of people to say "Yeah, man, I'll bet you're right."

[iwantFUEGO]

I assume that's aimed at me, so I'll try to use small words for you, light from distant stars has nothing to do with the big bang, except to show that the universe must be old enough to allow it to travel to us. On the other hand the universe shows very uniform background x-ray radiation, no matter where you point a radio telescope. Where do you suggest this radiation comes from, if not from the big bang? As for the second question, it appears likely there was life on mars, back when it had an atmosphere. Have you not at some point in your biology education learned life, at least as we understand it, requires liquid water? And that complex, multicellular life requires oxygen? Your argument is often called the "strong anthropomorphic principal" (sorry, big words, but unavoidable). That is to say that because we see a universe in which we can exist, it must therefore have been created for our benefit. The counter argument is simply that we should not be surpized to see around us conditions which allow our existence, to the contrary, it would be very odd indeed should we see otherwise.

You have a decent argument... only once again, skipped way past the point. You are claiming that we shouldnt be surprised that we live on earth because earth contains water and air and all the things necessary to provide life.
thats fine and dandy.
What everyone here is ranting about is the fact that the biochemical aspects of life... did it or did it not spontaneous evolve without help from a designer? People are claiming that the earth has been around for billions of years... that is a LONG time they claimed, long enough for carbon based beings to evolve into water dependant creatures....

what I am saying, however, is that Mars has been around for billions of years also. Why has (just an example) a nitrogen-based organism that is dependant on sulfur evolved there?

Trying reading more ;)
And please spare me the simple words... thanks :thumbsup:



"You know what I hate? When people try to join conversations, as opposed to just sitting there passively and listening. I mean, whenever I go to church do you see me challenging the pastor on issues? Hell no.

We can debate, sure. But you're not allowed to point out the flaws in my argument, that's just unfair. And if you do so, I'll ignore your points by claiming their not even relevant."

I don't think anyone else has contributed to making you look like a dumbass man. Take a little personal responsibility.

Dude.... you just keep chiming in with bs...
everything that you have argued has been "quoted" by me in all my posts and refuted.
You havent done that once. You have yet to address one single educated thing that ive said.
Give me a break.

[andruejaysin]

What everyone here is ranting about is the fact that the biochemical aspects of life... did it or did it not spontaneous evolve without help from a designer? People are claiming that the earth has been around for billions of years... that is a LONG time they claimed, long enough for carbon based beings to evolve into water dependant creatures....
The complexity argues against a creator, if it's all magic then there is no need for biochemical aspects in the first place, for life to need oxygen, food, or anything else. No need for there to be oxygen at all, or any other element. Certainly no need for a fossil record showing life of ever increasing complexity. Way off topic, I realize, but I can't help thinking of GW Bush, who doesn't believe in evolution, yet made his money in fossil fuels. Who know what life waits to be found on mars, or in the clouds of jupiter, or the oceans of europa, or the unimaginably large number of planets circling other stars? I don't claim to know, or even if there is, but if there is it seems reasonable to assume it's biology would be radically different than ours.

[iwantFUEGO]

The complexity argues against a creator, if it's all magic then there is no need for biochemical aspects in the first place, for life to need oxygen, food, or anything else. No need for there to be oxygen at all, or any other element. Certainly no need for a fossil record showing life of ever increasing complexity. Way off topic, I realize, but I can't help thinking of GW Bush, who doesn't believe in evolution, yet made his money in fossil fuels. Who know what life waits to be found on mars, or in the clouds of jupiter, or the oceans of europa, or the unimaginably large number of planets circling other stars? I don't claim to know, or even if there is, but if there is it seems reasonable to assume it's biology would be radically different than ours.

You got the right kind of thinking.

I believe very much in evolution...
I'm not saying that this "designer" created humans... no no.
I'm saying the whole system of biochemistry was designed.
The periodic table as we know it is genius. it arranges elements by their properties and by size very well and helps us visualize. We as humans have created a science out of this "chemistry"... But this chemistry is too complex (ESPECIALLY when you get into the biology aspect of it all) to have somehow evolved to become this way all by chance. We do live in a universe filled with "chaos" and its amazing how live goes againts the rules of chaos in order to arrange itself according to what best suits it.

Sorry if i'm going too deep into this for you (:p ), but look at the whole aspect of inducers and repressors in gene expression. I wont explain this system of positive and negative control since i assume you already know about it... Explain to me what it is that makes you believe that a system as complex and as perfectly regulated as this was just created out of thin air, without any influence.

I'm very aware of evolution, and you are right about how much we havent discovered yet... But have you ever sat down and realized just how complex this whole thing called evolution is? Have you ever realized how many specific chemical reactions it takes for evolution to happen?
You can believe in both evolution and intelligent design... theres nothing wrong with that.

[andruejaysin]

Sorry if i'm going too deep into this for you (:p ), but look at the whole aspect of inducers and repressors in gene expression. I wont explain this system of positive and negative control since i assume you already know about it... Explain to me what it is that makes you believe that a system as complex and as perfectly regulated as this was just created out of thin air, without any influence.

Actually no, I know shit about genetics, beyond mendel and his peas. But I guess the idea is that the system is self improving, not because everything works, but because so little does. For every improvement there are a million failures, it's simply that these go nowhere, while the rare possitive mutation survives. Obviously you know this already, but it explains things, at least for me. For me the far more profound question is why there is something, rather than nothing? Where did god, or the designer, or the singularity prior to the big bang come from? Neither science, nor religion, nor the hybrid of intellgent design provide any answer at all.

[CJBHM52]

I'm not saying that this "designer" created humans... no no.

But this chemistry is too complex (ESPECIALLY when you get into the biology aspect of it all) to have somehow evolved to become this way all by chance. We do live in a universe filled with "chaos" and its amazing how live goes againts the rules of chaos in order to arrange itself according to what best suits it.

But have you ever sat down and realized just how complex this whole thing called evolution is? Have you ever realized how many specific chemical reactions it takes for evolution to happen?
You can believe in both evolution and intelligent design... theres nothing wrong with that.

can you provide one fact that it is too complex to have evolved from some single cell organism? how do you know its too complex for nature? and what did the creator create if s/he didnt make humans?

[Polymirize]

You have yet to address one single educated thing that ive said.

Dude, I have been searching for one. But it's harder than you'd think.

[CityBoyGoneCountry]

Life (as it exists) was designed so intricately, you cant say that some genius didnt create it... whether you choose to call him God or not.

Before you go giving God all the credit, you need to study more than chemistry. You need to study how evolution works.

Sure, for a fully evolved human being to accidentally appear out of nowhere is about as likely as a tornado hitting a pile of scrap metal and leaving behind a fully built apache helicopter. But for a single-cell organism to come to life and evolve, over millions and millions of years, into a human being, is not so unlikely. In fact, it is far more probable than an all powerful, all knowing omnipotent entity appearing out of nowhere and making the universe out of nothingness.

If you think we are complicated creatures, how complicated do you think God would have to be? If you are going to use God as your explanation for our origins, then you must also be prepared to explain the origins of God.

[psychocat]

We can play with this one all day since we then run into a chicken/egg style argument.
If someone or something designed all we see then who designed the designer?

It's mans feeble attempts to grasp something beyond their knowledge that makes them believe someone or something must've been responsible .

Science is an ongoing thing and all we think we know is simply showing us how little we actualy understand and sometimes just how wrong we can be.

The man who thinks he has the greatest intelligence is the worlds biggest fool.

[anangrymailman]

The counter argument is simply that we should not be surpized to see around us conditions which allow our existence, to the contrary, it would be very odd indeed should we see otherwise.

Well said. My thoughts exactly.

[iwantFUEGO]

For every improvement there are a million failures, it's simply that these go nowhere, while the rare possitive mutation survives. Obviously you know this already

In fact you are wrong... well mostly wrong.
If you want to only look at the BROAD idea of evolution, then yes what you said is partly correct.
BUT
If you were to look at a specific organism... that statement is totally incorrect. Infact, there are many repair mechanisms that are readily available inside every nucleus in your body. Everytime your exposed to UV, you have a chance of mutating DNA... mutations happen spontaneously all the time.
Lets look at DNA replication. In eukaryotes, DNA is replicated anywhere from 500-1000 base pairs per second. Thats 1000 bp per chromosome (46), per nucleus (trillions) in your entire body. Your DNA polymerases will make a mistake about every 1 million base pairs, but thanks to repair proteins we rarely have anything to worry about.
Maybe you dont understand that cells go through numerous functions that include replication, translation, transcription, and protein sythesis (just to name a few associated with DNA). All of these functions have no "brain" to rely on. There is no little person riding around telling the ribosomes to translate the mRNA so they can make proteins... all that happens because the ribosome complex (which is nothing but a bunch of atoms) has sites on it that are exremely specific to the tRNA holding the amino acid.
Dont you get it? All this naturally occuring chemistry is far too specific to have happened by chance.


can you provide one fact that it is too complex to have evolved from some single cell organism? how do you know its too complex for nature?

I'm not saying evolution doesnt exist... we all evolved from simpler organisms.
Procaryotes: Very simple DNA molecules... most of the DNA is composed of coding regions (no DNA is wasted). Transcription and translation both happen in the cytoplasm and only one enzyme (RNA Polymerase) makes the RNA.

Eucaryotes: Very complex DNA molecules (and MUCH larger)... Very little of the DNA is composed of coding regions (exons: "express regions") and the rest is composed of non-coding regions (introns: "intervening regions"). These introns must be spliced out using special proteins before they leave the nucleus. Transcription happens in the nucleus whereas translations happens in the cytoplasm and we have 3 enzymes (RNA Polymerase I, II, and III) that all makes different RNA.

Obviously these two systems are VERY similar... but unicellular organisms dont need the complexity that we need because they handle much fewer genes.

I never said it was too complex for nature. "nature" IS, afterall, all of this happening. I said it was too complex to have designed itself.


Dude, I have been searching for one. But it's harder than you'd think.

LOL ok...;)


Has anyone ever wondered by we all start from one cell... and then become many, but we have skin cells and bone cells etc.... and they are totally different?? I thought all cell carry the same set of genetic info???
Well youre right, they do...
Its done by a process called gene regulation. Basically, in eukaryotes, if order for an RNA POL to transcribe your DNA, it has to associate itself with many different protiens in order to be able to attach to the DNA strand.
A few of these protiens are called transcription factors (TFIIA, TFIID, etc..)
Now, on each DNA strand, there are multiple sequences called genes. Each gene has something called a promoter infront of it. Inside this promoter region are sequences called regulatory promoters. There arent many of them so the cell uses different combinations for different genes.
In order for the RNA POL to transcribe that gene, it has to have the transcriptional factors readily available in order to bind to the regulatory promoters. If they arent there, the gene product wont be made, and the gene wont be expressed.
You can keep going up the ladder if you want to know how the cells knows the make those transcription factors... but that just shows you how chemically involved the whole system is.
There is NO "brain"... just chemicals that must follow certain rules... and DO, therefore creating life.
Yeah ok... it wasn't designed by something... your right.

[iwantFUEGO]

sorry about the double post... mod please delete the first one (shorter one) thanks.

[NightProwler]

its just brgnhfdginrdfighnsiubrisgiusfnvfhibdnigj and thats the only way to explain life.

[birdgirl73]

sorry about the double post... mod please delete the first one (shorter one) thanks.
At your service, Fuego. . . deletion done. Glad to see this thread continued while I was at school studying science today!

[iwantFUEGO]

Thanks birdgirl!!

Hope your feeling better...

Which science were you studying?

[andruejaysin]

There is NO "brain"... just chemicals that must follow certain rules... and DO, therefore creating life.
Yeah ok... it wasn't designed by something... your right.That's certainly the conclusion those who wrote the textbooks you learned all this from reached. I will defer to their judgement.

[iwantFUEGO]

lol i dont really read the textbooks....i actually dont even own the one required for my class.
i just go to class... and study the professors notes.
and this is my conclusion... no body told me to think this way... why say that?

[NextLineIsMine]

a good and hard question, i believe god exists, ouside of time and space, but I AM ADMITTING that this is a BELIEF, i can't prove it to you, obviously


but everyone, please consider the harder question, and this is it: EITHER you have an infinite creator, OR you have infinite MATTER

big bang is clever because you give everyone a picture of "nothing" exploding, but it's not supposed to be nothing, it's supposed to be an incredibly small, incredible massive singularity of matter, and it exploded; the theory works for people because it puts matter into such a small amount that you're allowed to forget about it, but what happened BEFORE the singularity???? why did it happen the way it did?

so, for there to be existance, you've got to have something infinite, either matter or a "god"

now why is god the way he is? where did he come from? why are things teh way they are? these are questions that i just have no answer for

i believe certain things, but i have the humility (yes i'm arrogant enough to claim to have humility :) ) enough to entertain doubt, to REALIZE WITHOUT A DOUBT, that i don't know everything, in fact i know so little it's practically nothign


wow dude I was asking myself what you were talking about in this post just the other day. I always believed in the bigbang and feel sure that gravity will slowly but surely pull the universe back into the very same singularity again. Yet where that singularity first came from defies all logic considering you cant just gain energy or matter from nothing in the first place.

The universe defies all reason

[psychocat]

I hate repeating myself but if your theory is to hold water then I think you must answer this :
If someone or something designed all we see then who or what designed the designer?

[iwantFUEGO]

haha why am i expected to kno that answer? :D :stoned:

unless thats revealed to us... i dont think we'll ever know.

[CJBHM52]

yo fuego. national geographic (in the states, dont know where you are) just did an article about evolution. you should check it out. talks about some pretty interesting ties between different animals and organisms. including humans.

[Draziok]

when I think that all life is made out of protons electrons and neutrons just rearranged like an artist on acid, my mind goes crazy.