Philosophy of GOD

[harris7]

This thread is meant as a continuation/restarting of another thread â??arguments supporting Godâ?¦â?�. The idea of this thread is to have more of a philosophical discussion. With the starting argument:



When first presented the idea of God no man should accept it. It is much more reasonable to accept that there is no God than to assume there is. As this is a magical or mystical event and no person should believe this with out reason. So

The existence of no God is much more likely than the existence of god
One should have reason if to change there belief in favor of his existence
There is no reason to change your belief
Therefore there is no god

[Pass That Shit]

I'm not planning to go back and forth again. But really, there is no argument on this subject. God created all things. That's how they got there. You will never prove this wrong cause it's true. It's comes down to FAITH. An unbeliever puts his/her faith in the wisdom of other men (science), but I put my FAITH and TRUST in God's word. If you think you are bright enough to challenge him, feel free to do so. But I will let you know in advance that you will NOT win a debate against the Almighty.

Peace :thumbsup:

[harris7]

I have said nothing of science. I am asking a simple question. Why would someone change there beliefs. Everyone starts off life not believing and some change.

I am not here to tell you that Science said this… and therefore your wrong.

I am saying, that it is not my job to prove you wrong. IT is YOUR (not you specifically) job to prove that “god created all things”. For example

I say:
I have a dragon in my room

My friend says
No you don’t. I don’t have any reason to believe that

I say
Prove to me you don’t have a reason to believe that…

This is because I made the statement of existence. You don’t have to prove non-existence it is just assumed.

[Polymirize]

The existence of no God is much more likely than the existence of god
One should have reason if to change there belief in favor of his existence
There is no reason to change your belief
Therefore there is no god

Its kinda an assumed atheist argument from the getgo, don't you think?

What supports the premise that the existence of no god is more likely?

plus, I love "there is no reason to change your belief"

I think "god" if I can apply the label so loosely, is to be found in the shadows that the light of reason doesn't reach. But the very existence of shadows allows us to infer the possibility of something. Negatively defined, you know? Anyway, I don't think you're going to be able to demonstrate anything deductively...

[JaggedEdge]

I have said nothing of science. I am asking a simple question. Why would someone change there beliefs. Everyone starts off life not believing and some change.

I am not here to tell you that Science said thisâ?¦ and therefore your wrong.

I am saying, that it is not my job to prove you wrong. IT is YOUR (not you specifically) job to prove that â??god created all thingsâ?�. For example

I say:
I have a dragon in my room

My friend says
No you donâ??t. I donâ??t have any reason to believe that

I say
Prove to me you donâ??t have a reason to believe thatâ?¦

This is because I made the statement of existence. You donâ??t have to prove non-existence it is just assumed.


"Everyone starts off life not believing..." This is true I suppose, yet wrong. In my case and I'm sure most of the others on this site who argue the existense of god, have had the existense of god shoved down their throat from the moment they began speaking.

Secondly this debate is never ending. It is nobody's responsibility to prove anything regarding this topic. It all comes down to faith. I have faith in man kind despite it's shortcomings. I have no faith in god. Many here do however have faith in God.

Now on that note, it is faith. I'm tired of the religious assuming I'm rotting in hell for not believing. If I'm expected to be "forced" to believe in somethig than I'm not really believing in anything. Also stop knowing you are right... No one knows. Just becasue you believe in god does not mean you know he exists, so stop saying so. Same goes for athiests, just because it is illogical to believe in god doesn't mean the Christians didn't get lucky.

Here is the botom line. Nobody knows for sure if there is a god. Unless god came to your house and personally killed your first born child, you don't know shit.

[Hamlet]

If you say the existence of God can only be found where the light of reason doesn't reach, then the argument is moot. Philosophy is logic, and logic is math--'this, therefore that'. If you can't come to some rational evidence of God's existence, then all you have to go on is 'hearsay' or divine intervention.

The 'hearsay' is really hurting in the credibility department, and the few I've known claiming 'divine intervention' have spent some quality time with psychosis.

[JaggedEdge]

No all that is really needed is the belief that something is the creator for us. Look with you in the fact I don't believe in God, but face it, belief in a higher power is a part of human nature. Look at ancient civilizations, most of them believed in something. Granted, with the advances in science religion is losing it's importance in today's society.

[Pass That Shit]

Nothing has changed. Jesus who was anti-religion has become the cornerstone of almost all religions. He pointed out back then that religion was wrong and that the religious people were not following the Word of God. That they were not following him. They obviously were not following him cause they killed him. So what I'm saying is that nothing has changed about religion being credible. It was never credible in his word. I truly believe in my heart that every organized religion is FALSE. I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's how I feel in my heart. Organized religion is just trying to replicate what the jews did back in the day when they were the chosen people of God. I saw a news clip the other day that showed the oldest standing "church". How fitting that it was a synagogue. All those who claim to be going to church are really going to a synagogue but they just don't know it. Cause the true church is not a building. Well it is, but we are the living stones that make up the church. God dwells in people not in earthly buildings. He doesn't dwell in things made with the hands of man. We are the temple of the "living" god.

As far as those looking for proof that God exists, they are just closing their eyes. Who ever proved that the events in the bible didn't take place? And if they did take place, why don't you believe them? It's not that there's no proof, it's that the testimony of other men is not sufficient for you. You are basically calling all the writers of the scriptures liars without having a single piece of evidence against them. Keep in mind that the testimony of these different men came in different generations. You can believe what you like, but I'm here to defend that the Word of God is in fact the Word of God. And if it truly is the Word of God, who will ever prove him wrong?

These topics never prove anything, it just allows us to share what is in our hearts. I try to share the truth with others, but I don't get bothered if they choose not to believe cause everyone is held accountable for themselves.

[RedLocks]

I started off life thinking that when chinese people laughed they laughed in a in chinese, i soon found out laughter was a universal language, therefore, I changed my beliefs after I gained new wisdoms

[RedLocks]

i really can't speel engrish =/

[moorephened]

This thread has gone horribly wrong!

None of the positions here have any philosophical merit.

The reason for this is that there was not given any requirements for what "god" is. As the theologist James F. Ross said "With no description or definition to work from, we will literally fail to know what we are talking about."

The phrase "God exists" is a metaphysical utterance which cannot be true or false. Once it is said that "God exists(or does not exist)" it must be asked "What is it you are claiming existence of"

[moorephened]

Imagine if this conversation had taken place:

Bob: â??A Döu existsâ?�

Bill: â??Prove itâ?�

Bob: â??It snowed in Florida yesterday, which is my proofâ?�

Bobâ??s proof is unsatisfactory but much of the blame belongs to Bill. His demand for proof was premature. Before they moved on a Döu should have been defined. (Döu by the way is a word I made up).

In the same sense â??godâ?� must be somewhat defined for a debate about itâ??s existence to take place. Characteristics of a god may include omnipresence (as in Christianity), or transcendence, or anything else but â??godâ?� must be defined to a certain extent.

[MastaChronic]

Nothing has changed. Jesus who was anti-religion has become the cornerstone of almost all religions. He pointed out back then that religion was wrong and that the religious people were not following the Word of God. That they were not following him. They obviously were not following him cause they killed him. So what I'm saying is that nothing has changed about religion being credible. It was never credible in his word. I truly believe in my heart that every organized religion is FALSE. I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's how I feel in my heart. Organized religion is just trying to replicate what the jews did back in the day when they were the chosen people of God. I saw a news clip the other day that showed the oldest standing "church". How fitting that it was a synagogue. All those who claim to be going to church are really going to a synagogue but they just don't know it. Cause the true church is not a building. Well it is, but we are the living stones that make up the church. God dwells in people not in earthly buildings. He doesn't dwell in things made with the hands of man. We are the temple of the "living" god.

As far as those looking for proof that God exists, they are just closing their eyes. Who ever proved that the events in the bible didn't take place? And if they did take place, why don't you believe them? It's not that there's no proof, it's that the testimony of other men is not sufficient for you. You are basically calling all the writers of the scriptures liars without having a single piece of evidence against them. Keep in mind that the testimony of these different men came in different generations. You can believe what you like, but I'm here to defend that the Word of God is in fact the Word of God. And if it truly is the Word of God, who will ever prove him wrong?

These topics never prove anything, it just allows us to share what is in our hearts. I try to share the truth with others, but I don't get bothered if they choose not to believe cause everyone is held accountable for themselves.


dude, if you would look at the history of the bible, you will see that many things have been taken out of it, many things have been added, none of it was written by who it says it was written, the end of the bible, the whatever it is, the end of days or w/e, there was a debate on whether or not to put this guys end of days, or pauls end of days intot he bible, pauls end of days details that jesus will go into hell and free everyone, but the church decided not to use this, stating that if everyone knew that their souls would be free from hell eventually, they would do w/e the they liked, but neither one of the testimonies are true, because they were not written truthfully, they were written as a means to control people, as with everything else in the bible. religion is about control, belief in a higher power is not about control, get it? if everyone in the world thought that when they die, they rot in the ground and they wont get punished for anything the world would be in chaos, thus religion born
im against any god that says he loves me no matter what, but if i dont believe in him he sends me to a place full of fire and smoke and torture.

[Captain Hanks]

I started off life thinking that when chinese people laughed they laughed in a in chinese, i soon found out laughter was a universal language, therefore, I changed my beliefs after I gained new wisdoms

Perfect comeback to the number one post. Keep it coming.

[harris7]

“This thread has gone horribly wrong!

None of the positions here have any philosophical merit.”

I’m goin to half agree. This thread is not perfect, but I have seen some good points made.

Like what was said by “pass that shit”

And if it truly is the Word of God, who will ever prove him wrong?

I agree, only because it is kinda obvious that everone should agree. If god does exist (I admit that it is possible) then yes no one could prove him wrong.

“You are basically calling all the writers of the scriptures liars without having a single piece of evidence against them. Keep in mind that the testimony of these different men came in different generations.”

See I am not calling them liars. I will regretfully relate to science here for only a moment. In any science testimonials are not accepted. This is because of how unreliable they are. They are unreliable because of the huge devation in any population, because of the placebo and other reasons. I will not believe in god because someone said so because
1: how do we know they all weren’t schizophrenics
2: how do we not know there words have been changed in the last 2000 years

This discussion does not need to use the bible for reference or anything like that.
We only need to take the Basic elements of religion and examine it. There is way WAY too much to talk about otherwise.

Now to satisfy moorephened’s correct statement. I shall define god to a Small existent.

I will define God as. A being who does not exist in the physical and a being or agent that is all-good, all-powerful and all-good. Who was never created and who will never die.

[harris7]

Perfect comeback to the number one post. Keep it coming.

No this is not an rebuttal. You are agreeing with me
You changed your beliefs for a reason. Because you met a Chinese person and they didn't laugh in Chinese.

The real question is how did you gain your new wisdom.

[Krogith]

Seeking God out takes effort and you have to be able to admit your wrong, and make corrections.

Applying.

[Jacop]

My religion is hendonic discorian elementism.
Because of the discorian in me my pickyness with vocabulary is ridiculous.
So I refuse to use the termonology of "god" because throughout history it has been blown out of context.
INstead i view the situation in context with all life forms that have electrical energy. Or even Etherical for how ever often that term is mentioned.....
To me i view it as a giant shard made of of nearly infinet smaller shards.
Each life form each world, each spec, each dot in a dimension/plane/w/e all add together, shard by shard, peice by peice, to create the shard that you know.

now if you used the term "god" then i would infer you seek control.
Well the big picture of all those shards is just a giant shard... and if an individual 'god' as you call it is in control then fuck off.
theres to many shards to consider into new factors blah blah blah blah blah...
get over it.
its not that simple.
or is it?
or maby im not tellign you something...
or even better yet....
Maby you dont want to tell yourself something?
i dunno but im ditching this thread i got some reports to write.

[smoke it]

i think that the idea that the universe appeared from nothing, is just as far out as the idea that god appeared from nothing and created the universe. i dont know much about religion, and i dont really care. i want to live the 60 or so years i have left, die, and then figure it out.

then again, to me, all religons are very arrogant. (this is why i dont care for any of them) all say that theyre right, your wrong, and your going to burn in hell forever because you were uneducated and didnt beleive in what we do. if someone could physically prove to me what religon was right, i would convert instantly. but, no one can. people should be able to beleive what they want (and i am very glad that i live in the amazing country that i do, that gives me the right to do something that other people might be killed for doing) so the only thing that really pisses me off about religon is the arrogance. but, every man to his own

[Dutch Masta]

i think that the idea that the universe appeared from nothing, is just as far out as the idea that god appeared from nothing and created the universe. i dont know much about religion, and i dont really care. i want to live the 60 or so years i have left, die, and then figure it out.

then again, to me, all religons are very arrogant. (this is why i dont care for any of them) all say that theyre right, your wrong, and your going to burn in hell forever because you were uneducated and didnt beleive in what we do. if someone could physically prove to me what religon was right, i would convert instantly. but, no one can. people should be able to beleive what they want (and i am very glad that i live in the amazing country that i do, that gives me the right to do something that other people might be killed for doing) so the only thing that really pisses me off about religon is the arrogance. but, every man to his own

Well, thats the problem. From nothing comes nothing, so the only other alternative is that something was always something. That something is believed by many to be "god". However, since we now know that evolution occured, and that man or life was not "created", it leaves any rational person at the conclusion that there is no god. We will never know anything beyond the big bang, and how anything from it got here in the first place and thats probably where it ends.. or at least for a really long time where minimal progress will be made.

[Pass That Shit]

If I told you that someone pulled a gun on me recently and you asked me to prove that it happened. Since I had no proof to provide and you didn't believe the stickup took place, I would think it's fair to say that you're indirectly calling me a liar. If God says that he created the heaven and the earth, and you say nay, there's no way around avoiding that you are calling him a liar. But then again, is it possible to call someone a liar if you don't even believe he exists? I guess your belief is the lie itself.

Science or no science. The point is that you don't belive the testimony of all these different men. They all preach the same God.

For those of you that are confident that evolution took place, I'm curious to learn your view of how man and female came about? How does evolution play a role in my wife breast feeding my 6 week old daughter right now? Another thing I don't understand about revolution is that I heard someone on here say it only applies to man. Then why hasn't man evolved? Is there actual proof that man was something other than man? I'm just trying to understand your beliefs?

[Pass That Shit]

And by the way, the Word of God is not a "theory" like the big bang. There is actual proof of the writings. What proof is there that the big bang took place? I guess none since it's called the big bang "theory".

[Pass That Shit]

One more thing, the big bang theory does not contradict the Word of God. The big bang theory took place in the first chapter of Genesis. Man just doesn't tie that the big bang was a result of his word.

[smoke it]

Another thing I don't understand about revolution is that I heard someone on here say it only applies to man. Then why hasn't man evolved? Is there actual proof that man was something other than man? I'm just trying to understand your beliefs?

evolution takes very long amounts of time. it is happening. the average height of man has gone up (i think) about 4 or 5 inches since the 400s. maybe we are evolving, but havent evolved enough to really notice it yet.

[JackdaWack]

Im sure steven hawkins would have something to say in here. I dont belive in god, i went to catholic school for 12 years. I belived for some time that there was a god bing agnostic. However Im an universe man. I cant belive something that happend 2000 years ago and before. Its to my understanding that if there was a god he would be very much part of our lives. Not going to church every week. thats just going to see the same stupid ppl who just belive it becuase they have there whole lives. All we need to belive in is values and morals. with that if there were a god i think he would understand. I understand the whole beliving in god and not seeing. but there hast been anythng in 2000 years to help us understand god. the bible/torah yeah they tell us how it was. but how is it now?

[JackdaWack]

We need to stop thinging about where everything came from and realize that we are now, and now should be all we can make it. God is just an excuse for misfortunate ppl to have "something". Or they just do it and cant back themselves up. No one i have ever spoken to has ever given me a real reason to belive in god yet they do. My 12th grade Theology teacher never tried to make you belive just to understand that we are human and need to treat eachother with decency.

[JaggedEdge]

If I told you that someone pulled a gun on me recently and you asked me to prove that it happened. Since I had no proof to provide and you didn't believe the stickup took place, I would think it's fair to say that you're indirectly calling me a liar. If God says that he created the heaven and the earth, and you say nay, there's no way around avoiding that you are calling him a liar. But then again, is it possible to call someone a liar if you don't even believe he exists? I guess your belief is the lie itself.

Science or no science. The point is that you don't belive the testimony of all these different men. They all preach the same God.

For those of you that are confident that evolution took place, I'm curious to learn your view of how man and female came about? How does evolution play a role in my wife breast feeding my 6 week old daughter right now? Another thing I don't understand about revolution is that I heard someone on here say it only applies to man. Then why hasn't man evolved? Is there actual proof that man was something other than man? I'm just trying to understand your beliefs?


If someone pointed a gun to your head, I assume you would call the police. If you notified the police, they would fill out a report. You would than be able to pick up that report from the police station resulting in solid proof your were held up. Lets face it, if you don't call the cops after something like that, your a dumbass.

Your analogy sucks.

I'm not saying god lies, I'm saying he most likely doesn't exist. I'm not saying the bible lies, it is simply a work of FICTION.


Your evolution comment has already been covered in another thread as well as this one, so I will not bother to respond.

[Polymirize]

man, that didn't last long at all. I see people are back to flogging the tired nags of religion. Dogma and doctrine. Self assured ignorance arguing with self assured ignorance...

Spirituality without religion? Couldn't this conversation take place without people arguing about christian doctrine issues? Does the fact that the bible is a collection of stories say anything pro or con about the existence of god? "God" has meant so many things through history and within different cultures, why is the collective definition here on these boards so limited?

[Pass That Shit]

"If someone pointed a gun to your head, I assume you would call the police. If you notified the police, they would fill out a report. You would than be able to pick up that report from the police station resulting in solid proof your were held up. Lets face it, if you don't call the cops after something like that, your a dumbass."


It did happen to me recently, and I DID NOT go to the PO-PO. My nephew got his front teeth knocked out and his health was my only concern. I brought him to my house and took care of him and let him sleep at my place so his mom wouldn't lecture him while he was in pain. My sister did say that they did follow up and make a report the following day.

Since you're a smart ass, why would a police report prove it happened? Because we told them it happened? What if you don't believe the report like like you don't believe the scriptures? It's comical to me that you would instantly believe any other man except the men that wrote the Word of God. It's obvious that you guys automatically disregard the Word cause it's the Word not cause you have any facts that prove it wrong.

Are you guys any less confident than I am in your beliefs? If you are, you should keep seeking until you find the TRUTH.

[harris7]

I would first like to ask that everyone try not to use charged language, like arrogant, as the point here isnâ??t to offend each other.


If I told you that someone pulled a gun on me recently and you asked me to prove that it happened.God says that he created the heaven and the earth, and you say nay, there's no way around avoiding that you are calling him a liar.is it possible to call someone a liar if you don't even believe he exists? I guess your belief is the lie itself.

For those of you that are confident that evolution took place, I'm curious to learn your view of how man and female came about? How does evolution play a role in my wife breast feeding my 6 week old daughter right now? Another thing I don't understand about revolution is that I heard someone on here say it only applies to man. Then why hasn't man evolved? Is there actual proof that man was something other than man? I'm just trying to understand your beliefs?

To clear a few things up. Evolution does not negate the possibility of god creating the universe, neither does the big bang theory. They are only inconsistent if one believe that God literally made man how he is today, and created the world exactly how it is today.

I would like to expand on a really important misconception.

How would you define a theory? Think then go on

Most people would probably define it as an educated guess and this is why there is so much confusion about evolution. A theory IS an interrelated set of concepts that is used to explain a body of data and to make predictions about the results of future experiments.

Yes we have all heard the argument put forth â??After all, evolution is only a theoryâ?� which they usually mean as â??only a guessâ?�. The thing is the Theory of Evolution is NOT a theory in the laypersons sense; to the contrary it would be called a fact (Randall, 2005). It is only a theory in the scientific sense and different theories are definitely not equals. When we say the gravity is a theory (it is) we do not mean that we are pretty sure things fall. Just as with evolution we are not theorizing as to what happened, this is well documented by fossil records etc, we are theorizing as to WHY it happened.

Pass that Shit, I can certainly respect your desire to understand my beliefs, as this is only what I a attempting to do. :rasta:

[harris7]

Since you're a smart ass, why would a police report prove it happened? Because we told them it happened?
What if you don't believe the report like like you don't believe the scriptures?

It's comical to me that you would instantly believe any other man except the men that wrote the Word of God. It's obvious that you guys automatically disregard the Word cause it's the Word not cause you have any facts that prove it wrong.


you are jumping to conclusions and very quickly too

did you know that eye witness accounts are actually very inaccurate

essentially your argument is that:
------------------------------
It is written in the Bible

so they it true
----------------
correct?

If so, do you not at least doubt or question the accuracy or validity of these statements.

Do you wonder if someone has changed them over time. What about the different translations of the bible, have you read these, are they the same?

Is it conceivable that this book was written 1500 years ago, and only says it is older

Is it possible that someone in a position of power wanted to capitalize on the beliefs of say a country, so he changed the bible so he could use it to better control them.

Do you find it strange that the â??truthâ?� happens to be the best method of controlling a large population?

[MastaChronic]

okay, heres something
if an old dirty man walked up to you and told you he was god, would you believe him? how could you prove he wasnt god? how could he prove he was? what if he was and you disbelieved? what if he was just some crazy bum who had too much to drink and you did think he was god? you couldnt really prove or disprove him, so would you believe that this man is god?
i think everyone here would agree to believe in god if he came down to earth, just for a few minutes and let EVERYBODY on earth know he existed we would have a lot of believers, but what if some people didnt believe he was god? could the believers prove he was god and then convince that god is real? god is a human invention, much like the wheel in that no matter what it will keep on going, god is like similazation of the never ending argumentitive nature of human beings, but still a human invention.

[harris7]

so they it true. YUp i passed engish

how about So it is True

[JaggedEdge]

"If someone pointed a gun to your head, I assume you would call the police. If you notified the police, they would fill out a report. You would than be able to pick up that report from the police station resulting in solid proof your were held up. Lets face it, if you don't call the cops after something like that, your a dumbass."


It did happen to me recently, and I DID NOT go to the PO-PO. My nephew got his front teeth knocked out and his health was my only concern. I brought him to my house and took care of him and let him sleep at my place so his mom wouldn't lecture him while he was in pain. My sister did say that they did follow up and make a report the following day.

Since you're a smart ass, why would a police report prove it happened? Because we told them it happened? What if you don't believe the report like like you don't believe the scriptures? It's comical to me that you would instantly believe any other man except the men that wrote the Word of God. It's obvious that you guys automatically disregard the Word cause it's the Word not cause you have any facts that prove it wrong.

Are you guys any less confident than I am in your beliefs? If you are, you should keep seeking until you find the TRUTH.

First let me say, I am currently quiting smoking (cigs) and I have been being an asshole to everyone today. No offense meant to you, but after reading it just now I realized I did sound like a complete ass.

But like you said in your post just because it is in the police report doesn't mean it happend. For me this goes towards the bible as well, just because it is written doesn't make it true. Faith in the bible I suppose would require one to believe it was written by god. Since I don't believe it was written by god, what it says is nothing more than ancient literature.

"It's obvious that you guys automatically disregard the Word cause it's the Word not cause you have any facts that prove it wrong."

Look, here is the bottom line. I do not believe it is the word of God and of course I do not have solid proof to back it up same as you have no solid proof it is god's word. It isn't logical for me to believe in god or in the bible. It is nothing but folklore to me.

And I may not have proof but there are many things that suggest the bible isn't accurate.

Let me ask you this.

If the bible is the word of god, than why did men have the right to determine what books were worthy of making it into the final print? There were more passages written then those that appear in the bible. If god did write all these books than shouldn't all of them been worthy? My thinking is that certain scriptures didn't benifit the church and so they were left out.


But again, sorry for being an ass earlier. Sometimes I get carried away. :) :cool: :) :)

[harris7]

Sorry to go on without any response


“If God says that he created the heaven and the earth, and you say nay, there's no way around avoiding that you are calling him a liar. But then again, is it possible to call someone a liar if you don't even believe he exists? I guess your belief is the lie itself.”

I think that all of your statements are based on the existence of god, obviously because you believe this. The problem for me is that your arguments is also based on this. See above. What you said is utter nonsense unless you believe in god. It is called a circular argument were your conclusion is your premise. for example

premise 1: God exists
premise 2: God says he exists
Premise 3: No one has the right to challenge God
Conclusion: Thus God exists

No one will challenge premise 2 and 3

[JaggedEdge]

haha i didn't mean for that many smiley faces...

[harris7]

put me in a good mood. it is kinda funny how we are having the same argument in two different threads

[MastaChronic]

They're superstitious, they have these beliefs, these primitive, you know, people believe in a god... I mean they're just really kind of credulous, and gullible. People believe in, for instance, hell and angels, okay, these are very primitive, very, very backward to me, backward sounding beliefs, these are child-like, and that's the key, because they get you when you're a kid, they get you when you're little, and they tell you there's a God, and if you can make people believe, I believe this, if you can make someone believe that there's an invisible man, living in the sky, who's watching everything you do, and keeping count of everything you do, which is good and which is bad, then you can make that person believe anything after that, you can add anything you want, the 4th of July shit just rolls right in, land of the free, home of the brave, the press is fair and impartial, justice is blind, all men are created equal, your vote is important, the United States government is on your side, the army is here to keep the peace, the police are on your side...Oh, and freedom of choice, this is the big one, the illusion of choice, we're led to feel free by the exercise of meaningless choices. There are, for instance, important things -- not too many choices, unimportant things-ice cream flavors, what do you want, we've got 31, the flavor of the week, the flavor of the month, but political parties-we're down to two, jeez. Sources of information, media companies down to five, banks, insurance companies, pharmaceuticals, chemical companies, oil companies-used to be seven, down to three, pretty soon it's gonna be two. But if you’re lookin' for a bagel or a fuckin' donut, hey, what do you want-pineapple supreme, hazelnut; we've got everything you want. Cereals, I counted, personally in the store counted 192 different cereal choices, 192. 140 different cat foods, I counted, and that includes a tartar-control cat food for senior citizen cats, okay?

[Pass That Shit]

MastaChronic,

For your information, the LORD revealed himself to me when I was 21. And I wasn't part of any religion at the time. So at least "they" didn't get me when I was young. When I was young, I used to cut sunday school and go shoot billiards :thumbsup:

When they tried to get me young, I ran from them. But when the work is wrought in the LORD, you can't run from him. You have no choice but to believe and follow. If the Spirit of God was not inside me, I wouldn't believe either. That's why I'm well aware that I can't convince anyone. Cause no one was able to convince me until the LORD came to me. :dance:

[mrdevious]

MastaChronic,

For your information, the LORD revealed himself to me when I was 21. And I wasn't part of any religion at the time. So at least "they" didn't get me when I was young. When I was young, I used to cut sunday school and go shoot billiards :thumbsup:

When they tried to get me young, I ran from them. But when the work is wrought in the LORD, you can't run from him. You have no choice but to believe and follow. If the Spirit of God was not inside me, I wouldn't believe either. That's why I'm well aware that I can't convince anyone. Cause no one was able to convince me until the LORD came to me. :dance:


who's to say a neuro-chemical change didn't come to you? You can "feel" the prescence of the lord, but then psychadelics can make you feel just about anything. In fact, the mental processes that go through our brains can convince us beyond any doubt whatsoever, that what we're feeling is genuine. Even the concept of a feeling being real or genuine is a chemical and micro-electricical reaction.
I guess I don't really expect to change your opinion on it, you can't change anybodies opinion once they devote thier minds to a belief in the supernatural, but something to think about none-the-less. At least you're one of the reasonable and intelligent believers, that's gotta count for something.

[MastaChronic]

Give God the first portion of your income, say that with me,
Give God the first portion of your income. Give it first!
Not after deducts, not after the social security, and the
hospitilization, and the malnutrition. Not after all these
things on your check you say, I'm gonna give God a little what's
left. You do, and that's what you gonna get from God.
Don't put away your wallets just yet, brothers and sisters. There's somebody here I'd like all of you to meet. This is little Jonathan. Jonathan, say hello to the lovely people, (hello). Jonathan has problems. Twisted neck, tangled legs, crooked spine, but we can heal this boy. For just, uh, six thousand dollars, we can heal this boy!
Would you like to healed, little Jonathan? (yes, reverand).
You see brothers and sisters, this...(beep-beep beep-beep)
Excuse me. I told you never to page me on a sermon day. Yes? Uh-huh. Hallalujah. Outty. People, that was the lord, today only, he will heal this boy, for just five thousand dollars! Four-thousand, eight-hundred, nine-hundred, five thousand
Hallalujah, you did it brothers and sisters. Are you ready, Jonathan?
(yes, reverand) Lord Almighty, we've met your price, give me the healing power, I can feel it, Lord! Roomy loomy lama noma noomy! This boy is healed. (really?) Now to the naked eye, it would appear that this boy has not been healed, but I can assure you, this boy's spirit has been healed. Inside this tangled, mangled frame is a healed little boy. His spirit is healed, Hallalujah!

this is but a mere example of what christianity really is today

[Pass That Shit]

LOL

I wouldn't mistake those type of people for christians. If you did, that's where you went wrong. As far as tithes, it's a scam. Alot of religions tell their members to donate 10% of their check to their "church". Since their are so many vulnerable people out there, they take advantage of them. Tithes only applied to the jews and only when they were under the law. The same people giving the tithes are also working on Saturday, so the tithes are not worth a hill of beans.

One time I heard this preacher on tv telling this to his audience: You want God to do things for you but when you come to "church" you don't want to reach into your pockets. He continued to tell them that you have to give to God to get back from him. Another scam artist like the one in your story. :thumbsup:

Here is the true gospel: Come buy without money. And in another place: Buy the truth and sell it not.

Don't believe anyone just cause they have the title "christian". The truth is in the Word of God, not in the mouth of scammers.

[smoke it]

MastaChronic,

For your information, the LORD revealed himself to me when I was 21. And I wasn't part of any religion at the time. So at least "they" didn't get me when I was young. When I was young, I used to cut sunday school and go shoot billiards :thumbsup:

When they tried to get me young, I ran from them. But when the work is wrought in the LORD, you can't run from him. You have no choice but to believe and follow. If the Spirit of God was not inside me, I wouldn't believe either. That's why I'm well aware that I can't convince anyone. Cause no one was able to convince me until the LORD came to me. :dance:

FUCKING ARROGANCE. "im right, your wrong, god will come to you...."

i have a choice. this isnt cool, what your doing. there are other religons besides christianity. they say the exact same thing you are saying. you have no proof!!! some 1500 year old book and the idea of the creator of existence means absolutley NOTHING to me. i will not and can not run from whats not there dammit.

[MastaChronic]

your telling me youve never run from something that isnt there? woah, total deja vu, i just had a dream i was typing this.... anyways youve never gotten paranoid off bud and started freakin out? totally different subject but still

[tahoe58]

as a scientist and one that was brought up on Darwin's theory of natural selection, there has been a tremendous amount of recent discussion about the holes in this theory. Even Darwin himself posed this in his text. I found the following link on video.google to be a very interesting look at this current debate.

Intelligent Design - Unlocking The Mysteries Of Life
... rationalist argument that the miracle of life is a "nothing but" - scientifically explained foregone conclusion. Their is "intelligence" behind the design.

Illustra Media - 1 hr 7 min - 24-Apr-2006

[Pass That Shit]

I don't understand? Why run from him? He's not the boogy man.

MastaC, Ever watched a scary movie and then went out and heard a noise and started running? ;)

[smoke it]

HES NOT FUCKING THERE!!! im sayin i cant run from nothing

[MastaChronic]

word, i cant run from something that doesnt exist, god is a scapegoat, that and people have to have something to thank when things go their way and something to curse when it doesnt

[Spiritual]

The bible is false. Everything in it is simply a lie. I know this because god told me.

THAT is the Word of God.

Try as hard as you want and you can't prove me right, so how can the bible be true?

The only proof that the bible was written by god is the bible itself. Therefore if I say that whatever I say is the word of god then it must be true, according to the belief that the bible is the word of god.


who's to say a neuro-chemical change didn't come to you? You can "feel" the prescence of the lord, but then psychadelics can make you feel just about anything. In fact, the mental processes that go through our brains can convince us beyond any doubt whatsoever, that what we're feeling is genuine. Even the concept of a feeling being real or genuine is a chemical and micro-electricical reaction.
I guess I don't really expect to change your opinion on it, you can't change anybodies opinion once they devote thier minds to a belief in the supernatural, but something to think about none-the-less. At least you're one of the reasonable and intelligent believers, that's gotta count for something.


People see a sign of "god" and they automatically assume that it is god from the bible or another religion. There is absolutely no way that they can/will comprehend the fact that it is something else. If you lived in the rain forest in Brazil and saw a sign of "god" would you accept the bible as truth? You wouldn't know of the bible so there is no possible way you would accept Jesus and the Christian god. You would believe in whatever the people of your community believed in. So how is god any more true than any other belief?

[Nylo]

The existence of no God is much more likely than the existence of god
One should have reason if to change there belief in favor of his existence
There is no reason to change your belief
Therefore there is no god

I have to severely disagree. There are two types of scientific ideologies that underlie science.

One view is secular: They view the universe as a product of randomness and chaos. There is nothing speical about the universe; it just is. Religion is an attempt to glorify and rationalize existance. Nothing more than mankind's nature to find a sense of security in the world.

The other view is more orthodox: The universe is a product of a mystical force. All things are not random, as every move thrusts life forward. Religion and science do NOT conflict because they both bennefit eachother. The more advances scientists make, the more they will find they have enabled the power of religion.

Science is mankind's tool, our gift, to understand and shape the world around us. Science is the Law of the Universe, ruling over all things of matter, gravity, etc. Religion is the law of morality and goodwill. It rules over the human spirit, the human condition, and human society.

You can not abolish one or the other. To do so would not only be madness, but an amputation to what makes us human.

[harris7]

what I said has nothing to do with science. and you really didn't disagree with me. you went of on a tangent

as well science is a method of observation, I do not know anything about these ideologies you speak about. But I disagree that these two things underlie science.

Maybe these two things underlie some sub area of science

Thank you for bringing the debate back to the basics

[Nylo]

Ah, but I only disagreed on the concept that God can be completely understood through current rationale and scientific thinking. Maybe we can never understand completely. I grew up on science myself, and in ways that science disproves God to some, it amazed me progressively in a way that I saw glimpses to the inner workings of pure genius in the cogs that run life, nature, and the universe.

I can understand why it's difficult to understand how the two ideologies I mentioned underlie science, but they do. It's really my bad, because they have two specfic terms that define them and for the life of me I can't remember them at the moment.

At the very least I can concede that their aim specifically deals with the scope of the universe and existance itself. Whether it is random, or whether there is a life foce or "method to the madness" that sustains it.

good topic nontheless. We may not agree, but I enjoy discussions of this nature; good food for thought.

[harris7]

feel free to present an argument I would like that, no one has yet. and it blows.

when you speak of pure genius about the world and stuff. are you talking about intelligent design (hopes so)

so here is the argument as I see it (As an analogy)

a man is walking down the beach and sees a watch in the sand. HE looks at it sees how complex it is and can only assume that it was made by an intelligent being, ie human.

Now when someone looks at life in any form which is hundreds of times more complex than a watch and not draw the conclusion that it was also made by an intelligent being?

…

[harris7]

Well we’ve all had some time to think. And I hope I can get this thread up and going again.

I’ve been thinking and here is a more fundamental question


How could a mortal person convince you of something impossible?
(without any miracles because apparently that’s how this all got started)
I assume no one here has witnessed water into wine.

So what could someone write to convince you of this.

Well a lot of people have said that the bible has come true on many counts.

So if I write a bunch of true statements.

-I had toast today
-It is raining in Vancouver
-It will be raining in Vancouver in 5 min
-There is an intangible being that created everything

so my first three statements were correct so ya’ll assume the last one is too?
I really don’t get it.

[JunkYard]

Honestly, I don't know why I believe in God...I just do.

It could be because I was force fed the concept of God my entire childhood? I guess it stuck, lol!

As for the water to wine...I don't think I believe that.

Much Love,

:smokin:

[harris7]

thats the thing about beliefs. they defy the laws of physics

you can knock out all there supporting ideas. but the belief wont fall

(in general)

[JunkYard]

in general...

:smokin: