Argument supporting god...?

[JaggedEdge]

I'm rather annoyed with the logic of Catholics. I attended a catholic school from 5th - 12th grade and I remember in religion class when I would debate with my teachers about their teachings (in 10-12 grade) an argument they used. I don't remember the question asked but the teacher replied with this logic.

Teacher - Look at that flower, where did it come from?

Me - Umm a seed.

T - Where did that seed come from?

Me - the dirt.

T - Where did that dirt come from?


Blah, blah, blah. This went on a few steps longer until he concluded that everything has to date back to on central point. In other words everything is caused by something else. Hence there is a god.

I have heard many Catholics use this same logic. I just really pisses me off that they consider this an argument. So everything most come from something else yet once you trace it back to god the pattern suddenly ends. Look if your going to argue that everything must come from something else, you can't convienently end this logic once you reach god as the answer.


Anyway, just something that pissed me off. I was having a little debate with this guy on campus and he used this same argument. The ignorance found within Christianity scares me. I suppose because I was around it for so long and believed in it so strongly and blindly when I was younger.

[Krogith]

so where did the atoms come from and what caused the laws of the universe? where did this order of things we now can call life start from? your beliveing in a law of distruction and nothing would exsist in that state. you know that humans have tryed to put all the right atoms near eachother and have never been able to make life? and that still doesn't explain how the atoms got there to start with.

[Krogith]

there are tons of exsamples of how the bible is god inspired. the bible says the earth is a sphear heald apon nothing. the common teaching of the time ranged from earth being flat to it sitting apon elephants backs.

the bible says the stars number as the sands of the sea. compare thoses two things, stars and the sand of the sea. if you counted the stars on the clearest night you will come to about 3000-5000. thats a mear handful of sand. but in fact today we know that 1/2 of the stars we see is a galaxy full of billions of stars and in fact they do number as the sand of the sea.

these are just 2 exsamples of countless teaching that are right and prophecy that have and WILL come true.

[JaggedEdge]

So by this logic it had to have come from god? Why should this system end once you reach the conclusion of god. Oh yes because he has always existed? How is that anymore logical or any different really than one atom having alway's existed. My point is this, the argument shows nothing. It doesn't explain how their must be a god nor does it explain there isn't one. It's simply flawed logic that you suddenly change at the end to "explain" what you believe."

Again why does this questioning suddenly end when you reach the point of "well god must have created it." If it is possible God has alway's been, isn't it also possible the universe has always been, in one form or another? I understand people want answers, but I don't think our minds are advanced enough to truely grasp this universe and it's laws, much less why they are the way they are. God is simply a convienent answer to these questions.

But again, I have no problem with the belief in God assuming the faith is based on something personal. That is true faith. Being told there is a god all ones life and assuming it is ture isn't faith. It's ignorance. In order to have faith you have to give a personal reason for it.

If you tell me you believe in god because of this that happened to you than great... maybe you are right. I don't know, known of us do. I simply can't stand the people who argue so strongly that there is a god without ever truely thinking about it.

In Catholic school they taught us it was a sin to ever question god, yet you can never truely believe in him unless you question him at one point.

Now I'm not saying this is the kind of person you are, but that is the kind of person that pisses me off.

I don't try and disprove god, I simply want to encourage people to question his existence and come up with a personal answer to the question. Quit simply accepting it as fact because it has been shoved down your throat and been told for so long it is sacralige to question the truth about what your tought. In my opinion organized religion is a form of brainwashing. I can say this because I have lived it.

[Krogith]

i agree we have to ask and think for our self. Blind faith will not save you. you have to know and belive and unless you do then your still looking. I suport you asking why, how, WHAT?!?! this is life we have to find our path and choose it.

[JaggedEdge]

Good than essentially we agree, we just have come to different conclusions. I can respect someone even if they believe in a rock assuming they have truely thought on it and believe it to be true.

[Krogith]

1 corinthians 6:9-10 what! do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit god's kingdom? do not be misled. neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adultors, nor men kept for unnatural purposers, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionbers will inherit God's kingdom.

[FireyBudBurner]

Keep in mind the Bible is just a religous text for one of many sects of religion and it had to be written by a human. As we all know humans have a tendency toward corrupt thought processes, as shown in the very book we worship and the story of Adam and Eve. I think the biggest problem with the Christianity is that many of the teachings are out dated and veiwed as very conservative now days(anti-gay, non-marriage, drugs ect). At the end of the day Darwin had way to many counterpoints against organized religion for many of us to ever believe again. Theres too many people that are too opinionated about religion, just think there are at least 5 major religions in the world that means at the end of the day if there is an outside force that created us 4/5 of us picked the wrong damn side to begin with. Not to mention the far fetched stories like Noahs Ark and a guy in a whale...? Why oh why would u believe that crap.

[FireyBudBurner]

I shouldn't say crap I know it means a lot to people, I would just really love to know why.

[Krogith]

what are your counter points? just that you do not belive the storys? the hebrew scriptures (all your storys you do not belive) are prophecy of Jesus being born and the life he lived. all was writen so people would know that he was God's son here to die for all mankinds sin (wich atom started). the greek scriptures are writen so we know about jesus and his father and how he is going to distroy this system of things. god made adom and eve to live forever and in peace, with FREE WILL. wich they decided to lose by disobaying him.

from just looking at prophecy and what happend then compareing whats going on today to prophecy we can see the will of god is soon to be fullfilled. do not allow your FREE WILL to blind you in chooseing to disobay.

your right most of this world has fallen short of what god wants and it is sad. Woe to the earth

[Ignatius]

Belief in God has no logic, it's purely a question of faith over reason. I have no belief in God, some do. That's ok with me, I just ask for the same respect as an atheist. Most religions don't afford me that respect. That makes their religion weaker in my eyes for I do not care one iota what they believe, and I have no wish to convert them to atheists. Each to their own, but that doesn't seem to apply to religion as most religions consider it their duty to spread the word of God. I only want to be left alone, nothing else.

[Krogith]

Belief in God has no logic, it's purely a question of faith over reason. I have no belief in God, some do. That's ok with me, I just ask for the same respect as an atheist. Most religions don't afford me that respect. That makes their religion weaker in my eyes for I do not care one iota what they believe, and I have no wish to convert them to atheists. Each to their own, but that doesn't seem to apply to religion as most religions consider it their duty to spread the word of God. I only want to be left alone, nothing else.

Jesus went takeing his followers to teach about his father. God wants you to draw close to him. I know you do not want people forceing there ideas onto you. I am not doing this i am in a spirituality section talking about what i have come to learn. I do not force you to read this or even come to this section. I just want to follow what jesus tought and follow his exsample. and i can;t stop talking about what I have come to know. you can simply not listion if you choose. Sorry if you feel i am forceing a belife

[FireyBudBurner]

Ignatius brings up my biggest problem and counterpoint against organized religion. It creates inequalities among different groups separating them into either believers or non-believers, at the end of the day thats just like racism minus the great deal of hate. And as the islamic Jihandist's have shown even that small aspect of acceptance has been denied to people. Im not a big hater of religious people and I think they follow a lot of great ideal systems, I just see the flaws the the design and the way they use peoples insecurities to get them to believe something. I mean thats the whole reason someone wrote the Bible, the basic need for people to feel like they belong and provide them with a blanket for all of there insecurites about death. People who feel very strongly about there religion can seem brainwashed at times as they don't really listen to other peoples counterpoints and feel like they are challenging their intelligence. Many people hold their beliefs for that reason and the fact that their loved ones have taught them this their whole lives and they think people who loves you would never push something wrong on you. It's scarey to think that theres a group of people so consumed in this cycle and so insecure about their future after death that they are will to kill themselves and others to uphold those beliefs.

[Krogith]

killing one another is wrong and we must love our brothers ( all humans) teaching about Jehovah God and giveing people a Chance to follow or choose to follow there own thinking is what jesus tought. we all are here and chooseing ither to follow god's laws or fall short. You have to SEEK GOD and if your looking and doing the real reaserch then you will come to your own conclushion. Satan is all around us and trying to distract you with false teachings. we need to seek truth out and if your confused your seeking satan's teaching. God's laws and rules will make sence and he is Just. All confushion is Satan blind sighting you. Keep looking tell you find him and Follow what Jesus tought.


1 corinthians 6:9-10 what! do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit god's kingdom? do not be misled. neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adultors, nor men kept for unnatural purposers, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionbers will inherit God's kingdom.

[mrdevious]

How did the universe get here? How did the first atom appear? How does the universe have a system of physical laws? why can't we (yet) reproduce life without life?

Well obviously, god did it.


But you'll notice that pretty much every argument for god's existence is in this form. Not empiracle evidence, but rather an explanation that simply fits into the missing piece of the puzzle.

Now let me ask... how does the sun rise? what is the sun made of? where does lightning come from? How does the magic plant get you high? Before science could answer any of these, it was obviously the work of god. And today we carry on that same fallable tradition of placing god in the missing puzzle piece whenever science fails to understand it at that point.

But truly, it was when we rebelled against our dependence on god and started questioning, started asking if the earth really is the center of the universe, if life really did just magically appear, what physical processes actually make the world work, and infinite other questions.... THAT was when we made progress, when we abadoned dependence on god and started making our own solutions. When we realized that biological and genetic manipulation is what cures diseases, that social reform such as slavery abolition and democracy would bring an end to government injustice by a huge margin, when we started making solutions on our own. And while many problems persist and will for a long time, there have been millions of things we had to deal with in the past that we found solutions, without the help of god, but with the help of human intellect and reasoning. One day the same will prove true for cancer, or HIV, or slavery.

science, reason, and most importantly learning how to take care of humanities problems ourselves is innevitably what will create the ideal world.

(In the mean time, I think theists need to start actually taking a look at atheist websites, not just those that confirm their preconceptions. Surely if your logic is so infallable there's nothing to fear in considering the numerous counter-points to the plethora of christian arguments I hear again and again.

[FireyBudBurner]

Nice post but you kinda just repeated what I said, but hey you agree! Theres many deep seeded reasons most Christians will never convert or even consider the arguement to atheism one of the biggest is the fear of being different.

[JaggedEdge]

How did the universe get here? How did the first atom appear? How does the universe have a system of physical laws? why can't we (yet) reproduce life without life?

Well obviously, god did it.


But you'll notice that pretty much every argument for god's existence is in this form. Not empiracle evidence, but rather an explanation that simply fits into the missing piece of the puzzle.

Now let me ask... how does the sun rise? what is the sun made of? where does lightning come from? How does the magic plant get you high? Before science could answer any of these, it was obviously the work of god. And today we carry on that same fallable tradition of placing god in the missing puzzle piece whenever science fails to understand it at that point.

But truly, it was when we rebelled against our dependence on god and started questioning, started asking if the earth really is the center of the universe, if life really did just magically appear, what physical processes actually make the world work, and infinite other questions.... THAT was when we made progress, when we abadoned dependence on god and started making our own solutions. When we realized that biological and genetic manipulation is what cures diseases, that social reform such as slavery abolition and democracy would bring an end to government injustice by a huge margin, when we started making solutions on our own. And while many problems persist and will for a long time, there have been millions of things we had to deal with in the past that we found solutions, without the help of god, but with the help of human intellect and reasoning. One day the same will prove true for cancer, or HIV, or slavery.

science, reason, and most importantly learning how to take care of humanities problems ourselves is innevitably what will create the ideal world.


Well you did a much better job saying what I was trying to say. Thanks.

I agree with you 100% our dependence on a god is diminishing. I just don't like the idea of waiting for god to make everything alright. We are in charge of our own world and we can't sit around and wait for a man who has been absent for over 2000 years if he ever even existed in the form the bible says. I'm not saying jesus didn't exist, he did. But there is no proof he was the son of god. Everything is based on an old book.

[mrdevious]

Well you did a much better job saying what I was trying to say. Thanks.

I agree with you 100% our dependence on a god is diminishing. I just don't like the idea of waiting for god to make everything alright. We are in charge of our own world and we can't sit around and wait for a man who has been absent for over 2000 years if he ever even existed in the form the bible says. I'm not saying jesus didn't exist, he did. But there is no proof he was the son of god. Everything is based on an old book.


I think Jesus most likely did exist too, and probably as a very wise man. But, there's a lot of evidence that his divinity was added on when the bible was collected and standardized some-odd 600 years after Jesus, largely for the purpose of making christianity more appealing to pagaens.

it's nice to at least have a few like-minded people around here, good to have you here Jaggededge (and fireybudburner) :)

[FireyBudBurner]

The last great emperor of the Roman empire... Costantine met a group of religous monks who pushed this new idea on him and told him about the magical ways of a man named Jesus of Nazarath. Costantine knew the Roman empire was in its waning years and he wanted to make his mark on the world so he hyped this new religion and changed the whole national religion to make everyone a believer. That act alone of him changing the Roman Empires national religion still rears its head today as people STILL believe in it.

Jesus did exsist he did do great things and had many followers. But he was just a man who wanted to push his own ideas, in fact the way it looks now he was a very manipulative man who thought he was actually the only begotton son of out only creater (talk about an ego). He was a great speaker and had great charisma so naturally people believed him.

[Mud Dauber]

How did the universe get here? How did the first atom appear? How does the universe have a system of physical laws? why can't we (yet) reproduce life without life?

Well obviously, god did it.


But you'll notice that pretty much every argument for god's existence is in this form. Not empiracle evidence, but rather an explanation that simply fits into the missing piece of the puzzle.

Now let me ask... how does the sun rise? what is the sun made of? where does lightning come from? How does the magic plant get you high? Before science could answer any of these, it was obviously the work of god. And today we carry on that same fallable tradition of placing god in the missing puzzle piece whenever science fails to understand it at that point.

But truly, it was when we rebelled against our dependence on god and started questioning, started asking if the earth really is the center of the universe, if life really did just magically appear, what physical processes actually make the world work, and infinite other questions.... THAT was when we made progress, when we abadoned dependence on god and started making our own solutions. When we realized that biological and genetic manipulation is what cures diseases, that social reform such as slavery abolition and democracy would bring an end to government injustice by a huge margin, when we started making solutions on our own. And while many problems persist and will for a long time, there have been millions of things we had to deal with in the past that we found solutions, without the help of god, but with the help of human intellect and reasoning. One day the same will prove true for cancer, or HIV, or slavery.

science, reason, and most importantly learning how to take care of humanities problems ourselves is innevitably what will create the ideal world.

(In the mean time, I think theists need to start actually taking a look at atheist websites, not just those that confirm their preconceptions. Surely if your logic is so infallable there's nothing to fear in considering the numerous counter-points to the plethora of christian arguments I hear again and again.
I don't see why science and God can't go hand and hand :confused:

P.S. FBB, I don't see how he was "manipulative"- I see him as a revolutionary and a radical and perhaps the first communist !

[Ignatius]

Science and God do go hand in hand. When we find we don't have the missing piece of the scientific puzzle we put God in it's place. As we become more adept at finding the scientific reasoning behind the missing pieces we'll rely on God less and less for the explanation.

[Krogith]

Some how because the sun rises today baised on physic laws, this proves God didn't set it up and make it work that perfect? you realise if a PIN head pice of the sun's core was here on earth you could not be within 90 miles of that tiny pice? it is at just the EXACT right distance from the earth to warm our day.

All this is somehow random? Just because we know what laws hold things here or does that over there proves theres no god? Proves to me his perfect design. and the fact that the bible was accerate with all we know and with jesus's life it was fortold, for us today to know.


I think Jesus most likely did exist too, and probably as a very wise man. But, there's a lot of evidence that his divinity was added on when the bible was collected and standardized some-odd 600 years after Jesus, largely for the purpose of making christianity more appealing to pagaens.

it's nice to at least have a few like-minded people around here, good to have you here Jaggededge (and fireybudburner) :)


I don't understand how he exsisted (jesus) and did all that he did (raise the dead, cure the lame). his life was layed out in the hebrew scriptures and all the prophceys came true. and the fact that the bible accerately discribed his life and what he would do. Jesus proved to be the son of god that was fortold to do exactly what he did.

the pope and the crusadeds and all these false doctrens that some how prove to you that he was just a man. Do you not remember Satan takeing Jesus to a high mountain and showing Jesus the kingdoms of the day, He said they were his and he would give them to Jesus right now for a act of worship. Jesus did not Deny that the goverments of this world are controled by Satan. Satan missleads Mankind and has given plunty of reason to reject God. Do not be misslead.

Jesus was the son of god here to make up for Adam's sin (eye for an eye rule) (perfect man sin-ning and perfect man dieing for all mankind). All these things were Fortold and All these things were right.

Thing is we have found script that date back to jesus time, and the bible is right. All the stuff christanty and false religion has tought is obiously wrong. and there obiously not following god's laws and what jesus tought. Don't let others ignorance and miss pratice stumble you. Do real reaserch and seek god out with a sound mind. turn away from the false teachers.

[TheToonToker]

well christianity is based on the Egyptians Sun Worshipping, like most ppl think Jesus was born on the 25th Of December - but he wasnt he was born in March (according to the bible) they used this date because it was already a religious day and they didnt want to mess ups ppl calenders basicly, so they just converted the old religous Egyiptian holiday and "re-packaged" it for christianity :D

[Ignatius]

That thing about being the right distance from the Sun.

Don't you think we might have evolved as the planet cooled and began to settle in the orbit we are in now. We weren't just here one day out of nowhere (or even six days out of nowhere) I think we gradually evolved to become what we are now. There are many mysteries still to be solved and science solves them one at a time. Those that aren't solved I am content to call "undiscovered truths"

I'm not ready to bet my chips on God being the answer just yet.

[Krogith]

how did all the millions of differnt things all evolve from the same stuff? Everything we see not only the life but the plant life. all these billions of differnt kinds of life all came about and the earth works in a way to suport it all, but some how it just happend about? Your beliveing an impossablity , think about everything you see and how complex it all works together and how we all need the other life to help us live our self. How would a rat elvolve to eat something if were all some how elvolveing at the same time? he would have nothing to eat.

bacteria eats and lives off things ,what would it consume to elvolve into more? how would anything exsist if the other life it uses to suport it self wasn't there or in a differnt stage. nothing could come about from this process and work in the way it does today ( and for the last 8000 years)

why is there no new intelligent life what caused us to come this far but Nothing else. remember your saying everything came from the same soup. where are the talking trees? This is how I can belive a creator that made everything work so well. WE all live useing the other life around us as suport and with out it all would be dead. and if god didn't make it JUST SO nothing would work.

[FireyBudBurner]

how did all the millions of differnt things all evolve from the same stuff? Everything we see not only the life but the plant life. all these billions of differnt kinds of life all came about and the earth works in a way to suport it all, but some how it just happend about? Your beliveing an impossablity , think about everything you see and how complex it all works together and how we all need the other life to help us live our self. How would a rat elvolve to eat something if were all some how elvolveing at the same time? he would have nothing to eat.

bacteria eats and lives off things ,what would it consume to elvolve into more? how would anything exsist if the other life it uses to suport it self wasn't there or in a differnt stage. nothing could come about from this process and work in the way it does today ( and for the last 8000 years)

why is there no new intelligent life what caused us to come this far but Nothing else. remember your saying everything came from the same soup. where are the talking trees? This is how I can belive a creator that made everything work so well. WE all live useing the other life around us as suport and with out it all would be dead. and if god didn't make it JUST SO nothing would work.

Genetic mutations and changes in breeds of under water bacteria over time is how it happened. If the mutations benefited the species then it would render the non-mutated (or unevolved version of the species usless and it would not be able to compete for the same food with its superior). For instance in modern history the neaderthal man found himself outsmarted by the homospaien mutation of the species the neaderthal was bigger and stronger, but it couldn't make tools and build shelters the way its mutated homospapien brothers could. Therefore the old evolution died off due to competion and the homospaiens ruled. Same principle applied to the bactericia who delveloped a tail and could swin fast than the previous species.
Certain attributes also lend to great success in certain climates, and regions the members of the species with these favorable attributes breed and thrive more effieciently than there brothers who may be underdeveloped in that area. The underdeveloped species die off and give way to the favorable species and soon enough the whole population has that favorable attribute. Pretty much basic biology, survival of the fittest and natural selection.
You may find it hard to believe that a bacteria turned into a human but it many many jumps before that one. Bacteria turns into a small fish, small fish turns into a bigger fish bigger fish grows legs and turns into prehistoric frog, the frog then turns into a primative lizard, the lizard due to climate change needs to develop hairs and turns into a rodent, rodent turns into a small monkey, small monkey turns into a primate and you should know the rest from there. Thats a very simplified version and Im sure there are many changes in between each but thats just a run down of how it happens.

Prehistoric bacterium photosyntheisized there food using the suns rays and H2O by the way.

[Pass That Shit]

"I'm rather annoyed with the logic of Catholics"
LOL, you're not alone.


The unbeliever will argue that what science can't figure out, a christian screams it was God who did it, to fit the puzzle.
I say, God spoke and science has yet to disprove a single word.

You guys say man wrote the bible, but yet the authors don't take credit for the writings. They ALL know and understand that it was written with the Spirit of God and none of the writers take any glory for their own writings. But yet, you guys scream that man wrote it. Obviously the authors disagree with you. Even though you want to give them the glory for the writings, they don't accept it.

This is the bottom line. You want proof? Try connecting the black and red leads of a volt meter to me and see if you can detect the Spirit of God inside me? How many volts? Science can't detect what's inside me, but I have the substance and evidence to prove that it's there. Oh yeah, but you don't want to believe me. :thumbsup:

[Ignatius]

Science has disproven quite a few of the words of God. Assuming the Bible is the word of God then we must accept that the world is only ..what is it..eight thousand, six thousand years old? Something like that. Are you a creationist perchance?

[Krogith]

nothing in the bible, has been proven WRONG thats a false statement.

[TheToonToker]

nothink has been proven right aswell

[FireyBudBurner]

Pass That Shit,you are the type of person were talking about on this forum. You just say God has never been disproven by science when you don't listen to all the obvious proof on this little forum alone. You are not going to either and you will never change because you refuse to give up on what you have so firmly believed for years. Hey, dont believe that people can't walk on water, one boat can't hold 2 of every species in the world, and a guy can't live inside the body of a whale.
People wrote the bible for the same reason Jesus told people he was the son of god. Attention, and fame. The reason the authors of the Bible didn't write there fucking names on it if you didn't think that far is because they are not total idiots. They wrote a book that they CLAIMED was WRITTEN BY THE SPIRT OF GOD, why the hell would they then go a disapprove there own lies by putting there name on the cover and letting everyone HEY A MAN WROTE THIS. Just maybe one day think outside of the box on your religion, you might come to realize what most of us on this site have,,,, ITS TOTAL BS.:stoned:

[Krogith]

god was helping these people and god was proveing that he was with them just because no one can ( walk on water today) does not mean that jesus did not.

If you keep looking to your own understanding then your not ever going to see the one who created all. putting your faith into mankind, who die and distroy one another is going to get you where?

Looking at all that is made and saying it just happen to be makes you God. your makeing your self the most advanced thing in your reality.

I choose to know that were wrong and were self distructive. I choose to humbol myself and except a higher power to know whats best and his ways are Right. From the start.

[FireyBudBurner]

That is your choice and it seems to be soley based on your own misgivings about mankind and has nothing to do with factual evidence. Hey thats the same reason everyone who believes essentially does, you don't have evidence and none will ever arise. I guess if your insecure with death and your future then God is the way to go, it will make you feel better until you become mushroom food.

[Mud Dauber]

Science has disproven quite a few of the words of God. Assuming the Bible is the word of God then we must accept that the world is only ..what is it..eight thousand, six thousand years old? Something like that. Are you a creationist perchance?
What has science disproven then ? Iggy you sound like a very angry young man , chomping at the bit.

Assuming the Bible is the word of God, who's to say that one day to God isn't a billion years to us ?


Im with you Billionfold, I'd rather believe and die and there be no afterlife at all, than not believe and die and WHOOPS. Better safe than sorry ! I even wear a seatbelt :D

[FireyBudBurner]

Be Buhdist then man, monotheism is a joke.

[RedLocks]

so where did the atoms come from and what caused the laws of the universe? where did this order of things we now can call life start from? your beliveing in a law of distruction and nothing would exsist in that state. you know that humans have tryed to put all the right atoms near eachother and have never been able to make life? and that still doesn't explain how the atoms got there to start with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PZyHF-PSk0

[Mud Dauber]

Be Buhdist then man, monotheism is a joke.
I always thought Buddhism was more a way of life than a religion :confused:

Still, Buddha ain't gonna help me in the afterlife if there is one, is he ? :D

And I think you only get one chance to get it right, can't imagine you'd have to keep coming back to this shithole over and over, that would SUCK !

What if you fucked it up now, and came back as a worm, only to end up on the end of a fishing pole ? ha ha !

[FireyBudBurner]

Yea that would deffinately suck, especially if u got that fisherman who likes to do the wrap around the hook a couple times routine. Rencarnation isn't buddhism though its Hindu which is like the worst silliest of all religions. What about coming back as cow, (it is supposedly the most honorable animal to come back as in hindu) being real good your whole life and then ending up as veal.

mmm veal

[Ignatius]

I'm displaying no anger here, we're just debating the existence or otherwise of a creator. I don't believe in it, therefore I'm an atheist. I'm happy to listen to your side too.

Please, carry on.

[Mud Dauber]

I'm displaying no anger here, we're just debating the existence or otherwise of a creator. I don't believe in it, therefore I'm an atheist. I'm happy to listen to your side too.

Please, carry on.
My bad ! I just thought I saw you on another thread getting all mad at someone, and it seemed like you were doing it here too.

You never did tell me what science has disproven :D

I just like believing, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. Ya dig ? :thumbsup: And like I said earlier, better to believe and be wrong (cuz you'd never know it !) than to not believe and be wrong about that. Just my :twocents:

FBB, I thought i had read somewhere that reincarnation was in Buddhism too- had to go searching for what I read (ha ha) and here's what it says- ' According to Buddhism, after death one is either reborn into another body (reincarnated) or enters nirvana. Only Buddhas - those who have attained enlightenment - will achieve the latter destination.' Its on that religionfacts.com.

Shit, I just tried to change my mood thing up there and it took me to a blank page ! I thought damn, I'm gonna have to type that whole thing over again, and me with medicine head ! Whew !

[FireyBudBurner]

Honestly I really don't know about Buddhism, besides that Buddha cleary enjoys food and thai sticks.

[Krogith]

my proof is simple. The signs of the last days are here. thoses who are awake can see it. All that we see happening today has been prophecy. All this is fortold to us. I keep on the watch. I see the signs around us and i know the hour draws near. Something big will happen to False religion Soon. The political beast is ready to Kill babylon the grate Harlot, who has misslead the nations with false prophets and false teachings. This WILL HAPPEN. Jehovah God's Judgement by means of Jesus Christ Will Happen. If you can not see that the political beast is controlled by satan and will die with this system. Woe to you Earth, for you will be held to account for you Deeds.

[FireyBudBurner]

my proof is simple. The signs of the last days are here. thoses who are awake can see it. All that we see happening today has been prophecy. All this is fortold to us. I keep on the watch. I see the signs around us and i know the hour draws near. Something big will happen to False religion Soon. The political beast is ready to Kill babylon the grate Harlot, who has misslead the nations with false prophets and false teachings. This WILL HAPPEN. Jehovah God's Judgement by means of Jesus Christ Will Happen. If you can not see that the political beast is controlled by satan and will die with this system. Woe to you Earth, for you will be held to account for you Deeds.

Its funny to hear people say things like this and it sounds like you are quite a negative person about the future of your supposed "non believers" At the end of the day I am amazed to see how a probably otherwise normal person such as you can be so consumed with this religious non-sense. No sensible thing was said there just your ramblings of an outdated thought process, the worst part of it all is, is that you probably discrimate against non believers such as myself and probably only associate with religious people. Then again I don't know you and can't say that for fact so I hope I'm not offending you if your not like that, but most heavily religious people I've known are. Honestly I just want people like yourself to maybe realize the flaws in your beliefs and if not change at least stop preaching it to people like this because you sound foolish.

[mrdevious]

Honestly I really don't know about Buddhism, besides that Buddha cleary enjoys food and thai sticks.

Actually buddha only ate 1 meal a day, whatever was given to him as charity while he did his work. The obesity portrayed in buddha statues is a symbole which makes him appear as a "kingly" figure.

[JaggedEdge]

"Better safe than sorry."

I have seen this in two posts on this thread and can't ignore that. I felt the same way when I first began to question god's existence and if he exists if he is truely as "good" as people believe. Anyway, I wasn't sure if what I was being told was right, but at the same time I had been told how I will rot in hell if I so much as think god may be a myth (slightly exagerated).

If you are a taking a "better safe than sorry" stance on the issue of god, than you can't really believe in him. You can know there is a god in your heart, but other than that, there isn't much argument for the existence of god. Believers try and come up with scientific counter points to a "fact" an athiest or agnostic may give. The truth is we have facts, not facts about everything, but scientific evidence about some things. Belief in god has none of that. Now I am not saying belief in god is idiotic, but stop trying to give proof. If you believe in your heart he exists and it is improving your life than wonderful. However anyone that can make the statement "better safe than sorry" isn't a true believer. It appears to me it is just praying to something your not sure about just in case.

[FireyBudBurner]

Actually buddha only ate 1 meal a day, whatever was given to him as charity while he did his work. The obesity portrayed in buddha statues is a symbole which makes him appear as a "kingly" figure.
Yea I actually know sadartha was actually a skinny man and ate little, but the the fat golden Buhhda Buddha Buddha at chinese resturants that Americans are familar with is what I was talking about.

[Krogith]

have you read the bible ? do you know what jesus fortold for the last days? i'm saying thoses who have read can look at the world today and see the signs.

[JaggedEdge]

Remember Y2K? Point made. Same situation here.

[Krogith]

people are wrong. god is right. y2k was retarted

[FireyBudBurner]

I don't mean to go off on rants on you religious folk but I know a lot of people who to me just seem brainwashed by it and even though they lead good normal lifes, they go on there little rants every now and then and it can sometimes look really non-sensical especially in front of atheists/people.

[Krogith]

"Better safe than sorry."

I have seen this in two posts on this thread and can't ignore that. I felt the same way when I first began to question god's existence and if he exists if he is truely as "good" as people believe. Anyway, I wasn't sure if what I was being told was right, but at the same time I had been told how I will rot in hell if I so much as think god may be a myth (slightly exagerated).

If you are a taking a "better safe than sorry" stance on the issue of god, than you can't really believe in him. You can know there is a god in your heart, but other than that, there isn't much argument for the existence of god. Believers try and come up with scientific counter points to a "fact" an athiest or agnostic may give. The truth is we have facts, not facts about everything, but scientific evidence about some things. Belief in god has none of that. Now I am not saying belief in god is idiotic, but stop trying to give proof. If you believe in your heart he exists and it is improving your life than wonderful. However anyone that can make the statement "better safe than sorry" isn't a true believer. It appears to me it is just praying to something your not sure about just in case.

your right. people need to prove to them self. if not it's all but blind faith

[Pass That Shit]

You guys keep asking for proof. I already told you that the proof is in me. Just because you think I don't have proof, doesn't mean I don't. It's not that I don't have proof of him, cause I do, it's that you don't believe me. Cause the proof is in the pudding!!!!!

By the way, the bible doesn't say that the earth is 6 thousand years old. It says that the big bang theory happened 6 thousand years ago. For the big bang theory to take place, the substance was already present. How can you prove that the Earth did not evolve six thousand years ago? What machine will tell you that it didn't happen? Can you measure evolution? Do you know when and how much it evolves? Why has it not evolved since his word?

[Mud Dauber]

"Better safe than sorry."

I have seen this in two posts on this thread and can't ignore that. I felt the same way when I first began to question god's existence and if he exists if he is truely as "good" as people believe. Anyway, I wasn't sure if what I was being told was right, but at the same time I had been told how I will rot in hell if I so much as think god may be a myth (slightly exagerated).

If you are a taking a "better safe than sorry" stance on the issue of god, than you can't really believe in him. You can know there is a god in your heart, but other than that, there isn't much argument for the existence of god. Believers try and come up with scientific counter points to a "fact" an athiest or agnostic may give. The truth is we have facts, not facts about everything, but scientific evidence about some things. Belief in god has none of that. Now I am not saying belief in god is idiotic, but stop trying to give proof. If you believe in your heart he exists and it is improving your life than wonderful. However anyone that can make the statement "better safe than sorry" isn't a true believer. It appears to me it is just praying to something your not sure about just in case.
SInce you don't know me, you are taking a giant leap there JE. I don't need to prove my belief in anything, nor would I even try to prove that God exists, I was saying that "better safe than sorry " merely to assuage the nonbelievers. I'm not here to convert anybody. I know what's in my heart and in my head, you don't. Don't tar me with any brush. :)

Now, if someone wants me to try and convert them, Ill be happy to :D

[Mud Dauber]

Damn can't you delete a message on this board or am I just blind?

[JaggedEdge]

SInce you don't know me, you are taking a giant leap there JE. I don't need to prove my belief in anything, nor would I even try to prove that God exists, I was saying that "better safe than sorry " merely to assuage the nonbelievers. I'm not here to convert anybody. I know what's in my heart and in my head, you don't. Don't tar me with any brush. :)

Now, if someone wants me to try and convert them, Ill be happy to :D

I'm guessing you are one of the people who said it. I didn't mean it as an attack on you, the only point I'm trying to make is by saying "better safe than sorry" it appears to an outsider like me that ones faith isn't as strong as anyone elses.

Also by what I wrote, your argument for god is the only real one. You know in your heart, that is great, I'm not going to argue against that. My problem is with those who simply revert everything back to the bible. I guess that has to do with faith as well though just now in a book...

I think you can only delete a post from a tread you started.

[Ignatius]

The "better safe than sorry" argument is known as "Pascal's Wager" and is a position postulated by the philosopher Pascal as a way of solving Descarte's dualism. It's not a new position. He says that one ought to believe because you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose by doing so. A rather cynical position in my view, but there you go. Kolgirth there is no point in you quoting the Bible to advance your argument. Unless one is a believer in the first place it's nothing but a story. It's like me producing the Q'uran or the Tibetan Book Of The Dead as evidence that Christianity is wrong. Unless you have faith in that particular text then it means nothing. It means everything to you as a believer, and nothing to me as an atheist. Instead of posting links to various scripture why not join in the debate yourself? I'm not interested in anything the Bible has to say except from a historical viewpoint. Athiesm gives me great strength. We're alone in the world, and you know what? It doesn't scare me one bit, it excites me, and I'm glad to be alive.

[idontgivenames]

im going to give you one very good reason to believe in god, followed by another one which flakey new age developmentally deprived flakes will counter with some shit about transgressing the laws of the universe.


1. if there is no god, okay. there's no god. what does that mean? absolutley nothing. but if there is a god, and you've chosen to live an unethical life style and denounced your faith... well, isnt that just a bitch. it's a win-win situation really.

2. cause and effect. god is the cause of all causes. but what caused god to exsist? let me ask you this: what causes possobilities to exsist?

NOTHING. because they dont really exsist. theyre just possobilities. there is no cause, because it isnt an effect.

what's the possobility of possobility not being possobility, but instead trasngressing possobility to be exsistence.

when you look at the logic of that, it goes hand in hand with cause and effect.

i'll try and rephrase in simpler terms. if there is a ball floating in mid air, not moving. just still in motion floating. it could still move if something moved it. not that it would, because its surrounded by nothing. but the thought of it happening is fathomable, because of chance in itself. not that it ever would or anything.

there is no cause for possobility, because possobility is already there.


on a personal note, ive found most atheists are atheists because they are deprived in some way or another and cant fathom that god would leave them in the corner. so they start looking to outside answers like, how is it possible for there to be a god and there are countless hypothesis floating around out there about god and his non exsistence. the bottom line is, nothing, i mean NOTHING transgresses cause and effect. thermodynamics, string theory, none of that transgresses an original cause. god is the cause of all cause and effect, to say the least.

[FireyBudBurner]

im going to give you one very good reason to believe in god, followed by another one which flakey new age developmentally deprived flakes will counter with some shit about transgressing the laws of the universe.


1. if there is no god, okay. there's no god. what does that mean? absolutley nothing. but if there is a god, and you've chosen to live an unethical life style and denounced your faith... well, isnt that just a bitch. it's a win-win situation really.

2. cause and effect. god is the cause of all causes. but what caused god to exsist? let me ask you this: what causes possobilities to exsist?

NOTHING. because they dont really exsist. theyre just possobilities. there is no cause, because it isnt an effect.

what's the possobility of possobility not being possobility, but instead trasngressing possobility to be exsistence.

when you look at the logic of that, it goes hand in hand with cause and effect.

i'll try and rephrase in simpler terms. if there is a ball floating in mid air, not moving. just still in motion floating. it could still move if something moved it. not that it would, because its surrounded by nothing. but the thought of it happening is fathomable, because of chance in itself. not that it ever would or anything.

there is no cause for possobility, because possobility is already there.


on a personal note, ive found most atheists are atheists because they are deprived in some way or another and cant fathom that god would leave them in the corner. so they start looking to outside answers like, how is it possible for there to be a god and there are countless hypothesis floating around out there about god and his non exsistence. the bottom line is, nothing, i mean NOTHING transgresses cause and effect. thermodynamics, string theory, none of that transgresses an original cause. god is the cause of all cause and effect, to say the least.

All of this is either basic philosophy or doesn't even translate into a sensical commentary. It sounds like you trying to put as many big words as you can into one sentence to validate a point that you cannot make on your side of the arguement, proof of exsistence or even a decent theory. This is a blob of nothing and the way you take a shot at atheists at the end is a little sad. I mean are you that furasted that people think outside the box and don't worship an outdated book of fictional stories. I am an athiest for one reason, organized religion and almost all religion relies and nothing more than faith, no fact, no substance just someone else telling you, "hey I believe this plus be got a book that says its true, where the hell have you been"

Also the Big Bang theory deffinately does not apply within the last 6000 years, if you have ever read it you know that the big bang theory implies that the world was created millions of years ago by a random sequence of events that rendered a planet capable of holding lifeforms. Along with the right conditions somewhere along the line a tiny random carbon based bacterium was created that could sustain life through photosynthesis. That theory completely negates the chance that the Bible is the real deal.

[Hamlet]

1. if there is no god, okay. there's no god. what does that mean? absolutley nothing. but if there is a god, and you've chosen to live an unethical life style and denounced your faith... well, isnt that just a bitch. it's a win-win situation really.

Sorry, but that's not a very good reason because it just opens another kettle of worms. So you decide ya might as well not chance it and become a good baptist, then get to the Perily gates and find out they're only letting Church of Christ in. ..or God really was down with the Catholics so you're a heretic because you took up with the Mormons....well, isn't that just a bitch.

Two thousand protestant religions and growing, not even counting the thousands of others, and you can see that playing the win-win odds game suddenly becomes a theological lottery.

The way I figure it there seems to be only two answers to this question. Either there is a God and he could care less if you believe in him or not;(because if he did it's only logical that he would straighten all this mess out himself)... or, there isn't a God and it really doesn't matter.

The balloon moving stuff when right over my head...sorry about that.

[Pass That Shit]

"I'm guessing you are one of the people who said it. I didn't mean it as an attack on you, the only point I'm trying to make is by saying "better safe than sorry" it appears to an outsider like me that ones faith isn't as strong as anyone elses."

That's why I use this in my defense when I'm asked to consider logic in a "Does God Exist" debate. Where is the logic in choosing death over life? If what I'm saying is true, why risk it? You must be VERY confident to go against logic in this case. You guys could keep preaching, cause it's comforting to hear that if I'm wrong, I'll end up with you. I'm glad to hear that you believe everyone is going to a place where there is no pain. Oh really, then why does everyone fear death? I'm gonna use some logic here. I'm gonna put myself in a win win situation and believe in God. And do you know the way there? Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. To each his own. Peace

[FireyBudBurner]

Yea the whole better safe than sorry thing isn't even worth me typing anymore about it, sillyness.

[JaggedEdge]

"I'm guessing you are one of the people who said it. I didn't mean it as an attack on you, the only point I'm trying to make is by saying "better safe than sorry" it appears to an outsider like me that ones faith isn't as strong as anyone elses."

That's why I use this in my defense when I'm asked to consider logic in a "Does God Exist" debate. Where is the logic in choosing death over life? If what I'm saying is true, why risk it? You must be VERY confident to go against logic in this case. You guys could keep preaching, cause it's comforting to hear that if I'm wrong, I'll end up with you. I'm glad to hear that you believe everyone is going to a place where there is no pain. Oh really, then why does everyone fear death? I'm gonna use some logic here. I'm gonna put myself in a win win situation and believe in God. And do you know the way there? Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. To each his own. Peace

I agree that it would be great to spend an eternity in complete bliss, but if that isn't the case I've come to except the possibility of just cease to exist. I'm not worried one way or another, if I die and there is a divine entity that is responsible for all this, I'm not worried about eternal damnation. I'm what a good "christian" should be, minus the belief in god. I'm not worried if there is a god and I'm wrong. I don't think he his so self centered he needs me some peon (sp) of his creation bowing down before him. If there is something that intelligent and that divine, it makes no sense to me it would be that egotistical or even concerned. I'm agnostic, I don't have enough facts to make a final decision, but I'm not going to spend a life time worshiping something I'm not sure exists. From my stand point I can lead a good life as I see fit. No need to worry about masterbation or premarital sex, etc.

Honestly, if there is a god, and he feels he needs to be worshiped and is going to "punish" me for lack of faith than I don't care to ever meet him.

[FireyBudBurner]

Nice final sentence JE, very true, blunt a too the point.

[Ignatius]

I couldn't follow the strange logic of your argument "Idontgivenames" However, your cheap shot at atheists leads me to believe there probably isn't anything worth finding. As an atheist I take exception to your assertion that I must have led a deprived existence. I certainly don't feel left in the corner, I'm out there looking for answers. The answers to life's questions are to be found (for my part anyway) in scientific reasoning, and not in some dusty old book appropriated by people who wished to exercise control over the populace. That's all religion is to me, a way of controlling people. Having said that I accept that religious faith offers great comfort to people, and I will not begrudge that. Please, respect my view as an atheist as I respect your faith (whatever it may be) I don't ask you to become an atheist as it matters not at all to me, why is it so important that I follow your faith? There is no evidence that God exists, none whatsoever. The only evidence is The Bible, and that really doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It's a matter of faith, and I have none in God. I believe in humanity and science. That is what drives the wheel of progress, not God. I agree with Jagged Edge here. If God exists then why is he so keen for me to worhip him? All this guff about a "jealous God" is so obviously a ruse to keep people frightened of thinking for themselves. Can't you see that? I guess not...

[Mud Dauber]

You still havent answered my question, Iggy :)

Im actually one of the Society of Friends, Quakers to you all :thumbsup: I'm not here to argue or convert, unless you want me to :D I will say this, though, as it is my opinion, even though its probably setting me up for massive abuse (ha ha ) - I believe that the opposite of faith is disbelief. Faith is natural, disbelief is willful. The spiritual state of faith is love and acceptance. The spiritual state of disbelief is desperation.

But, to each his own, it doesnt matter to me what other people think.

[Ignatius]

God created the Earth and heavens in six days.

Science says it took a fair bit longer than that.

There's something for you to be chewing over for the time being whilst I think of something else.

[Mud Dauber]

I can counter that by saying what is a day to God ? Is it 24 hours ? Is it a million years ? Who knows ?

I prefer to think of time as an abstract notion ;)

[Pass That Shit]

Keep putting your faith and trust in science for answers. The unbeliever puts his faith in man (science) and the believer puts his faith in God. We'll all have to wait to see what's to come. Keep in mind that science will not help us "if" there is a judgment to come.

By the way, God is outside of time. He created time. By creating the Sun and the Moon he gave us the two lights that we use to calculate time. Science DOES NOT disprove the timing and manner in which things were created. Soon time will be a thing of the past, the day will come when the sun will NEVER go down. There shall be no night there.

Let's stop the non-sense about the christian being the one who wants to convert the unbeliever. The unbeliever feels the same exact way about the christian, so let's not kid ourselves. We are all in the same boat here. Just because we're not in spiritual agreement, we don't have to judge who is the better person. I think this forum is for us to "share" our "beliefs", and to ask and answer questions others may have.

[sm0k1t]

Let's stop the non-sense about the christian being the one who wants to convert the unbeliever. The unbeliever feels the same exact way about the christian, so let's not kid ourselves. We are all in the same boat here. Just because we're not in spiritual agreement, we don't have to judge who is the better person. I think this forum is for us to "share" our "beliefs", and to ask and answer questions others may have.

amen to that :rasta:

[Ignatius]

Here's the rub, it seems as if Christians will happily quote sections of The Bible at folk all day long to back up a belief system. Yet when I ask about the six days to build heaven and earth it becomes an abstract concept, free to be interpreted in any way that suits?

It's either the word of God, or it isn't. iI it is the word of God then the Earth is only six thousand years old, Adam and Eve lived side by side with dinosaurs, Jesus walked on water, and that trumpet really did make those walls fall down that time in Jericho. On the other hand if it is a book that is open to interpretations then we might see how that very same book could be interpreted by all kinds of people, for all kinds of reasons.

It's not such a big leap to take.

I don't know about anyone else, I'm happy to let people be whatever they want to be with regard to religion. It doesn't stop me thinking it's a load of old hooey. I didn't say that I didn't like the people, I'm just saying the belief system is a system based on faith alone. There's nothing rational or reasonable about it. It has no logical basis in fact.

[Mud Dauber]

Here's the rub, it seems as if Christians will happily quote sections of The Bible at folk all day long to back up a belief system. Yet when I ask about the six days to build heaven and earth it becomes an abstract concept, free to be interpreted in any way that suits?

It's either the word of God, or it isn't. iI it is the word of God then the Earth is only six thousand years old, Adam and Eve lived side by side with dinosaurs, Jesus walked on water, and that trumpet really did make those walls fall down that time in Jericho. On the other hand if it is a book that is open to interpretations then we might see how that very same book could be interpreted by all kinds of people, for all kinds of reasons.

It's not such a big leap to take.

I don't know about anyone else, I'm happy to let people be whatever they want to be with regard to religion. It doesn't stop me thinking it's a load of old hooey. I didn't say that I didn't like the people, I'm just saying the belief system is a system based on faith alone. There's nothing rational or reasonable about it. It has no logical basis in fact.
Mr. Spock you do sound angry today !

About the points you make not making sense, I could point out that dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago, and if, as you say, Adam and Eve only lived 6000 years ago, then how did they walk side by side with them ?

I believe the Bible is the Word of God, and I also believe that it is open to interpretation. I don't speak Hebrew, ancient or otherwise, or Aramaic, or Latin, or Greek, and have never studied the Bible in the languages in which it was written. How do you know they meant days as in 24 hours ? You don't. I don't either. And I don't have any problems with the concept of Jesus walking on water or with trumpets bringing down walls.

Yes, I interpret it in my way, the same as you do. Why is it ok for you but not for me ?

You could take any book in the world and read it, and I could read it too, and we would probably not see it in the same way, because we are not the same person.

[Ignatius]

I'm not angry at all. Neither am I stating that Adam and Eve walked the Earth with dinosaurs, merely postulating the idea that they must have if we believe The Bible. According to The Bible the world is only six thousand years old, so therefore dinosaurs must have been here at the same time as Adam and Eve if you believe The Bible. Once again, I am displaying no anger here whatsoever. Why do religious people bow up when their belief system is questioned? It's just a discussion, if my atheiesm is to be questioned (not by you personally Mud Dauber, but in general) then surely we can debate the irrationality of a belief in God. You either have faith, or you don't, but The Bible cannot be brought in as evidence. It's just a book to me, I don't accept that evidence. Prove the existence of God to me..go on, I dare you. If there is a God..where is he? Why did he let the Holocaust happen? The Tsunami, the war in Iraq, the WTC, WW1 and WW2... he's not doing much of a job is he? All he's saying is believe in me, don't doubt. Oh, and by the way I'm a jealous God..have no others. Not much evidence as far as I can see.

[Krogith]

no the bible never claims the world is only 6000 years old i do not know what scripture your getting that from. it talks of the earth being a red hot molten planet and him formming the sea and land masses. it also talks of the giant beast wich roamed back then befor he created mankind.

[Ignatius]

Well, the creationists say that the world is only six thousand years old.

Are you not a creationist?

Don't quote any scripture at me, just a simple yes or no will do thanks.

[Krogith]

do i belive the bible? YES! that does not mean that you can lob me into some catorgory of creationest or what ever. God's days in wich he created the earth are on his time table. the 7th day he rested is most of mankinds exsistance up to the present time. whats your point?

[Mud Dauber]

I'm not angry at all. Neither am I stating that Adam and Eve walked the Earth with dinosaurs, merely postulating the idea that they must have if we believe The Bible. According to The Bible the world is only six thousand years old, so therefore dinosaurs must have been here at the same time as Adam and Eve if you believe The Bible. Once again, I am displaying no anger here whatsoever. Why do religious people bow up when their belief system is questioned? It's just a discussion, if my atheiesm is to be questioned (not by you personally Mud Dauber, but in general) then surely we can debate the irrationality of a belief in God. You either have faith, or you don't, but The Bible cannot be brought in as evidence. It's just a book to me, I don't accept that evidence. Prove the existence of God to me..go on, I dare you. If there is a God..where is he? Why did he let the Holocaust happen? The Tsunami, the war in Iraq, the WTC, WW1 and WW2... he's not doing much of a job is he? All he's saying is believe in me, don't doubt. Oh, and by the way I'm a jealous God..have no others. Not much evidence as far as I can see.
I'm sorry, but you do sound angry to me, like a dog straining on a leash - bad analogy probably but i'm high on cough syrup ! Maybe a horse chomping at the bit ?

You are asking these questions like you think I have all the answers. I don't have all the answers. I don't pretend to have all the answers. You don't have the answers either. Humans have free will, and many of us choose the wrong path. I myself have done so quite a few times. In my experience it sometimes takes a big knock on the head to get people to wake up. When I make mistakes, or when bad things happen to me, I learn. And because I learn, I can teach others. You may say what could people learn from these wars and natural disasters ? Many things. And yes, people do suffer when bad things happen, but this body is only temporary. I believe that with all my heart. It doesn't take away the suffering of people, but it makes life a lot more bearable for me, at least. :)

Why don't you prove that God doesn't exist, instead of me proving he does ? Go on, I dare you. :D

[Krogith]

how can anyone put there faith in mankind? All mankind has done is waist a bunch of time proveing that we can't do it our self. War, Hate and most of all GREED will allways lead to distruction.

The wage of sin is Death.

[Ignatius]

The burden of proof isn't on me Mud Dauber, it's on you.

There is no proof for a God, only faith.

That's the point I'm making, and I'm doing it without showing any anger. Perhaps you think if you keep saying it I'll lose my temper? I don't know how else to put it. I'm maybe being forceful in my opinion, but it's an opinion that I wholeheartedly believe in. All I ask is that my atheism is afforded the same weight as your faith. I'm not missing out, there is beauty all around us, just that I choose to ascribe it to something other than God.

I stand by what I say about The Bible and the various interpretations of it. Each religious group uses it to justify their own position. The same people use it as a justification for killing one another. I see it as an argument between various groups of people as to who has the best imaginary friend.

Just out of interest, I wonder how many wars have been fought in order to promote atheism. We all know the answer to that one..it's zero. As for God sending thse bad things so that we can learn from them... how about he sends us a bit of peace and goodness in his name instead? I think I'd learn a lot more from that. I think we all would.


There is no God, just people. It's up to us how we deal with that fact.

I'm not asking you to believe it though...

[Mud Dauber]

The burden of proof isn't on me Mud Dauber, it's on you.

There is no proof for a God, only faith.

That's the point I'm making, and I'm doing it without showing any anger. Perhaps you think if you keep saying it I'll lose my temper? I don't know how else to put it. I'm maybe being forceful in my opinion, but it's an opinion that I wholeheartedly believe in. All I ask is that my atheism is afforded the same weight as your faith. I'm not missing out, there is beauty all around us, just that I choose to ascribe it to something other than God.

I stand by what I say about The Bible and the various interpretations of it. Each religious group uses it to justify their own position. The same people use it as a justification for killing one another. I see it as an argument between various groups of people as to who has the best imaginary friend.

Just out of interest, I wonder how many wars have been fought in order to promote atheism. We all know the answer to that one..it's zero. As for God sending thse bad things so that we can learn from them... how about he sends us a bit of peace and goodness in his name instead? I think I'd learn a lot more from that. I think we all would.


There is no God, just people. It's up to us how we deal with that fact.

I'm not asking you to believe it though...
I'm afraid I fail to see how the burden of proof lies solely on me, and not you. :confused:

You say you aren't "an angry young man" and that you see beauty all around you, and then you ask why doesn't God send a bit of peace and goodness in his name instead. That tells me that you have never seen or experienced peace or goodness. If that is true, then what a sad life you have had so far :(

In talking about wars fought for atheism, I confess I dont know of any right offhand. But look at people like Stalin, and Hitler, and Mao, and many others like them. They too killed people for thinking differently. And I don't think they did it in the name of religion :)

[Ignatius]

I've experienced much beauty in my life, and I see it every day when I look at my daughter for instance. I put that down to biology, and you can put that to the test anytime you have a willing partner. You don't need to stoop to insults Mud Dauber, or maybe you do, it's your choice I guess.

Here's why I think the proof is on you. Suppose you and I were sitting in a room together, and I say to you "hey, look at this" and show you something in my hands. I have nothing there, so you can't see it. Let's say I keep saying I can see it. Is the burden of proof on me to produce it, or on you to believe it's right there even if you can't see it.

Take your time.. :)

[Stedric]

there are tons of exsamples of how the bible is god inspired. the bible says the earth is a sphear heald apon nothing. the common teaching of the time ranged from earth being flat to it sitting apon elephants backs.

the bible says the stars number as the sands of the sea. compare thoses two things, stars and the sand of the sea. if you counted the stars on the clearest night you will come to about 3000-5000. thats a mear handful of sand. but in fact today we know that 1/2 of the stars we see is a galaxy full of billions of stars and in fact they do number as the sand of the sea.

these are just 2 exsamples of countless teaching that are right and prophecy that have and WILL come true.

The Bible also says the world was built in six days, and there is no mention of dinosaurs or ice ages in it at all. Saying that because the Bible says there is as many stars as there are sands in the sea doesn't tell you much as both the number of stars and the number of sand particles in the sea are huge and nearly impossible to determine with any exactitude.

God kills forty two small boys in the Bible for teasing a prophet (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB, look it up yourself), and people wonder why I became an atheist.

[Mud Dauber]

I've experienced much beauty in my life, and I see it every day when I look at my daughter for instance. I put that down to biology, and you can put that to the test anytime you have a willing partner. You don't need to stoop to insults Mud Dauber, or maybe you do, it's your choice I guess.

Here's why I think the proof is on you. Suppose you and I were sitting in a room together, and I say to you "hey, look at this" and show you something in my hands. I have nothing there, so you can't see it. Let's say I keep saying I can see it. Is the burden of proof on me to produce it, or on you to believe it's right there even if you can't see it.

Take your time.. :)
Did I insult you ? :confused: I didn't mean to if I did. Do you mean where I said you must have had a sad life ? That wasn't meant as an insult, I only meant that life would be sad with no peace or goodness in it, dont you agree ?

I have children, thank you :) And they are as beautiful as their mother :D

If you showed me something in your hand that I couldn't see, and you were positive and insistent that it was there, I have to honestly say that I would eventually come to believe you. Don't laugh, I really do mean it. I know people who have seen things that others cant (or haven't), I myself have seen a ghost, and am completely convinced that that's what I saw. And that is why I feel the burden of proving God exists doesnt lie on me. :)

[Stedric]

there are tons of exsamples of how the bible is god inspired. the bible says the earth is a sphear heald apon nothing. the common teaching of the time ranged from earth being flat to it sitting apon elephants backs.

the bible says the stars number as the sands of the sea. compare thoses two things, stars and the sand of the sea. if you counted the stars on the clearest night you will come to about 3000-5000. thats a mear handful of sand. but in fact today we know that 1/2 of the stars we see is a galaxy full of billions of stars and in fact they do number as the sand of the sea.

these are just 2 exsamples of countless teaching that are right and prophecy that have and WILL come true.

The Bible also says the world was built in six days, and there is no mention of dinosaurs or ice ages in it at all. Saying that because the Bible says there is as many stars as there are sands in the sea doesn't tell you much as both the number of stars and the number of sand particles in the sea are huge and nearly impossible to determine with any exactitude.

God kills forty two small boys in the Bible for teasing a prophet (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB, look it up yourself), and people wonder why I became an atheist.

[Ignatius]

Which brings us neatly back to where we started. Belief in God is a matter of faith, there is no logic behind it.

[Mud Dauber]

No one ever said a woman was logical ;)

But, can you prove he doesn't exist ?

Going to lie down now, my head feels like it's on the rafters !

[Pass That Shit]

Your view of other unbelievers shouldn't deter you from the word of God. I wouldn't mistake a soldier for a christian. Who is telling them to fight? They are doing it by their own will.

You think those are acts of mother nature? I'm sure all those that were dying in the waters during those 40 days and 40 nights, thought it was mother nature as well. But guess what? The believers were safe from the killing waters. Tsunami, how does it come about? What does science tell you about them? Why do they come? When do they come? Can science predict them? What can science do for me? Can it keep me alive? I'm not asking if can science can delay my death in the flesh. Why can't science keep man alive forever? I do appreciate the numbness science brings to us, but on a deeper level, what can science do when the end is near?

Can science prove that the earth did not evolve six thousand years ago? According to the scriptures, the earth was formed six thousand years ago. Can science prove that man has existed on earth longer than six thousand years? Can science proved that the people in those days did not live close to 1,000 years? Your view of the earth only being six thousand years old is a private interpretation of the Word of God. Science will never be able to age the earth cause it's not given. I marvel that you believe in science, but reject the SCIENTIST.

[Ignatius]

According to science we've been here a lot longer than six thousand years my friend.

You've heard of carbon dating right?

[Krogith]

The Bible also says the world was built in six days, and there is no mention of dinosaurs or ice ages in it at all. Saying that because the Bible says there is as many stars as there are sands in the sea doesn't tell you much as both the number of stars and the number of sand particles in the sea are huge and nearly impossible to determine with any exactitude.

God kills forty two small boys in the Bible for teasing a prophet (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB, look it up yourself), and people wonder why I became an atheist.


that prophet had just cured the water of that land to no longer make people sick. Lack of faith will always lead to distruction. If you choose to go agenst what god has SAID or DONE, death will be what you recive.

[Krogith]

how is there no proof? the fact that everything works so well together and everything runs in order and the fact that there a Millions of differnt life all from the same soup. Proves to me he exsist. your science can;t even tell you WHY you die. No one knows why we age. the body is made to keep running. No one can tell you what, why and when but he who created it.

Just because you have decided to ignore the signs does not mean I have to.

The bible has a ton of proof that it was inspired by God. These people could not of known or guessed that right.

[Ignatius]

I don't think you are a true representative of the good side of religion. The type that teaches love, understanding and tolerance. Those people do exist, and some of them are religious. Personally I think they have it all wrong, but we manage to get along in harmony and still love one another. You seem to have a hate on against the world because we atheists do not suscribe God's word. All in all you are about the worst advert for religion that there can be.

[Krogith]

Sorry, I just tell what the bible says. If your part of the World, then your not going to recive everlasting life after armageddon. It's that simple. Follow or don;t follow. I still love you all and want you to draw close to god because that is the only way. we are all given a chance to draw close or reject. we are all chooseing a path. These are not my words.

I just know that i have an obligation like jesus commanded me to speak about his Father.

[Ignatius]

Yes, just tell what The Bible says, don't even think about it.

You live in The Dark Ages, before the enlightenment came about. Man is allowed to question, that's part of who we are.

Are you saying God made a mistake when he made us capable of reason?

[Krogith]

you have no questions, you have attacks. If a teacher was giveing a lecture, and someone said no thats wrong I know better. Would not the teacher allow the Wrong child to prove himself Wrong? Thus showing him being right in the 1st place?

[FireyBudBurner]

Wow the Bible mentioned dinosaurs and lava! It must be real then. I wonder why there aren't any stories about people living in the belly of dinosaurs and magic boats with all the dinosaurs floating over the lava? Or how about a caveman calling down a swarm of prehistoric bugs because his people are overworked by the local slave driver. I think they should add these for more entertainment value. Right now it's losing out to the Lion Witch and the Wardrobe and Tolkiens novels for overall fictional novel enterainment value.

[Ignatius]

I asked you a question right there dude.

Answer it any time you feel like it.

[Krogith]

you have no questions, you have attacks. If a teacher was giveing a lecture, and someone said no thats wrong I know better. Would not the teacher allow the Wrong child to prove himself Wrong? Thus showing him being right in the 1st place?

is the answer

people are alowed to prove them self wrong and not choose god

[Ignatius]

No, it isn't.

Try again.

[Krogith]

you prove to be your own answer. What question have i not responded to? You ask was it a misstake? I respond no he loveingly lets you decide for your self only the one Wanting to serve him will do so.

[Krogith]

When has mankind created something? Where were you when the foundation of the earth was set? What were you doing when the universe was put into motion? Where was I? We did not exsist befor he decided to make us. I choose to except this gift of life and serve he who made it, Jehovah God. If you choose to pick your own path i will not stop you. I am trying to help you with questions. That is all.

[Ignatius]

You answered it now.

Thanks.. that's all I was asking you to do.

Good luck and everything, not my bag, but if it suits you..cool.

[Stedric]

Can science prove that the earth did not evolve six thousand years ago?

How does an earth evolve? Evolution is restricted to living beings, and there was an earth before there were living beings on it. The earth does not evolve.

And assuming that science could NOT prove that the earth was formed six thousand years ago (which it can), that would mean nothing. From a philosophical standpoint, the burden of proof is upon the accuser. I can't prove that you aren't being anally raped by space-monkeys as I write this, but I imagine that that isn't the case (feel free to say otherwise). So you have to prove that the earth WAS formed six thousand years ago.

[Krogith]

The bible doesn't say it only exsisted 6000 years ago. find me a scripture to suport that. your comming from a flase idea.

the part about the formming of the world is Genesis, read the account and then argue your point.

[Ignatius]

The Bible is non admissable evidence in a scientific argument.

Overruled.

[Pass That Shit]

LOL

I'm done proving, but don't hate. I have joy in this cold world cause I know what's ahead of me. Peace

[Ignatius]

No hate here brother.

Peace to you too.

:cool:

[Mud Dauber]

Wow the Bible mentioned dinosaurs and lava! It must be real then. I wonder why there aren't any stories about people living in the belly of dinosaurs and magic boats with all the dinosaurs floating over the lava? Or how about a caveman calling down a swarm of prehistoric bugs because his people are overworked by the local slave driver. I think they should add these for more entertainment value. Right now it's losing out to the Lion Witch and the Wardrobe and Tolkiens novels for overall fictional novel enterainment value.
Actually, from an archeological and an historical standpoint, there are things in the Bible that did happen, and people in the Bible that did exist.

I go lie down for a couple of hours and watch the ceiling spin and come back and it's WWIII.

Iggy, you are insisting that Krogith answer your question, but you never answered mine. :(

[Ignatius]

I don't remember the exact question. Can you ask me again and I'll try to answer it.

[Mud Dauber]

Youve got to be kidding me, right ? I'm sitting here coughing up a lung with the biggest case of medicine head ever seen in the free world, and you want me to trawl through the pages of the thread to find the question ???

You look for it :D

[MastaChronic]

i just would like to say that i dont believe in god persay. i believe that there are creative and destructive forces-yin&yang-there is no good or evil(has anyone noticed that god is just good with an 'o' taken out and devil is just evil with a 'd' added to it?)i combine this yin and yang philosophy with the american indian belief of the great spirit and it works just fine for me. i dont believe that when i die i will go to heaven OR hell, but rather that i will return to the great spirit and merge with him to attain a state of omnipitence and when i have recieved enough knowledge from the ways of the world and the great spirit then i will be reincarnated in the form that best suits the actions of my previous life, but no form is either good or evil as they all serve their purpose in nature. on another point i associate nature with being creative and man being destructive(look at the way the world is and what we do to eachother)i can use my belief to explain things at a base level, maybe not the complexities. i believe in equal exchange, to gain something, you have to lose something. take this for example: you load a bowl with some weed, burn it and inhale the smoke(destructive, as you no longer have any weed)but in return you get high(creative) you destroyed the weed to create a feeling of pleasantness and well-being. make sense to anyone?

[MastaChronic]

sorry for double posting, but i believe that christians, catholics, methodists etc. will be reincarnated as cows, pigs, chickens, and other unthinking animals simply raised by the thousands for food.

[Krogith]

your god is horable to keep them liveing and recycling. thats just as bad as the hell idea. all bogas . dust you are and dust you will return.

Hell and the reincarnation idea are all part of distracting you from the truth.

[Mud Dauber]

sorry for double posting, but i believe that christians, catholics, methodists etc. will be reincarnated as cows, pigs, chickens, and other unthinking animals simply raised by the thousands for food.
Thanks for the sentiment, MC ! :D I'm a pacifist and a vegetarian !

And I love you too :D

[FireyBudBurner]

Actually, from an archeological and an historical standpoint, there are things in the Bible that did happen, and people in the Bible that did exist.

I go lie down for a couple of hours and watch the ceiling spin and come back and it's WWIII.

Iggy, you are insisting that Krogith answer your question, but you never answered mine. :(

Yes the Jews were freed by a man named Moses, and a man named Noah did escape the flood on a boat he made but not in the exagerated set of circumstances the bible would have you believe, so at the end of the day its fiction based on a semi-true story.

[FireyBudBurner]

The bible doesn't say it only exsisted 6000 years ago. find me a scripture to suport that. your comming from a flase idea.

the part about the formming of the world is Genesis, read the account and then argue your point.

No one wants to read the Bible in this post man... and creationism and the whole point of creationism is that the world was created for man and men shale rule the world. Now in that sentence right that can you tell me why then would he have a several 100 MILLION year period where man didn't even exsist on this planet. I don't even have to read it to know that it goes something like in 7 days earth is made then do dodo dodo dodo here comes adam and eve and this garden made just for them. No where in there does it say the earth spent MILLIONS of years being uninhabitable to most modern creatures until the climate was right, nowhere. And all of that by the way has been proven by scientists and is generally agree upon by almost every single one.

[MastaChronic]

your god is horable to keep them liveing and recycling. thats just as bad as the hell idea. all bogas . dust you are and dust you will return.

Hell and the reincarnation idea are all part of distracting you from the truth.

dude, shut up. your starting to give me a headache, plain and simple. i dont diss on your god, wtf you dissin the great spirit?
and reincarnation makes a lot of sense in theory. in scientific law, matter cannot be created or destroyed only changed, the same is true for energy. now doesnt it make sense that spirits cannot be created or destroyed, only changed? why cant you just accept my own personal beliefs and STOP DISSIN ON THE GREAT SPIRIT! IT AINT NO "GOD", ITS THE MUTHAF*CKIN G-R-E-A-T S-P-I-R-I-T!!!:mad: :mad:

[Mud Dauber]

Yes the Jews were freed by a man named Moses, and a man named Noah did escape the flood on a boat he made but not in the exagerated set of circumstances the bible would have you believe, so at the end of the day its fiction based on a semi-true story.
I was also referring to the events in the New Testament. Pontius Pilate did exist, and records show that he did crucify a man named Jesus, and did you know that PP's wife became a follower of Jesus, and that PP eventually did too ?

It's funny, too, how many "indigenous peoples" around the world have a story of a flood - makes ya think, huh ? :thumbsup:

[Krogith]

No one wants to read the Bible in this post man... and creationism and the whole point of creationism is that the world was created for man and men shale rule the world. Now in that sentence right that can you tell me why then would he have a several 100 MILLION year period where man didn't even exsist on this planet. I don't even have to read it to know that it goes something like in 7 days earth is made then do dodo dodo dodo here comes adam and eve and this garden made just for them. No where in there does it say the earth spent MILLIONS of years being uninhabitable to most modern creatures until the climate was right, nowhere. And all of that by the way has been proven by scientists and is generally agree upon by almost every single one.


nope your wrong. In the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. this was long befor the creative days. This statement is serprate from the creative days of the formming of life. Earth was said to be around perhaps billions of years befor he started life on it.

[Stedric]

LOL

I'm done proving, but don't hate. I have joy in this cold world cause I know what's ahead of me. Peace

And I find this world far less boring because I don't know whats ahead of me.

Peace indeed.

[Mud Dauber]

Where's Iggy with my answer ? :( He's abandoned me to the fishes.

[Ignatius]

Seriously, I don't know which question you are talking about. I looked back and couldn't see it. If the question is right there in your mind let it pop out and I'll do my best to answer it.

It's not that thing about a woman not being logical is it? I have to say I didn't get what you were trying to ask me if it is.

Fire away, I'm ready.

[Pass That Shit]

And I find this world far less boring because I don't know whats ahead of me.

Peace indeed.

Do you know me? Do you know that my life is boring? Me and my nephew just had guns pulled on us a few days ago. He lost his two front teeth from a pistil whipping, and I somehow managed to get away safe. These two fuckz had hoodies and masks. We were just hanging out and they came out of the dark. Scary shit. I ran away in zig zags thinking a bullet was gonna hit me in the back. You reply telling me that my life is boring, without knowing anything about it. Actually, you do know something. I'm enjoying the high life just like the next guy here. A few months ago a guy pulled a gun on me and robbed me in my car. I was trying to tell you that even though these things happened to me, I have joy in my heart, knowing that the things that make my heart hurt now, will not enter into the Kingdom of God. Nothing that offends will. What does faith in God have to do with living a boring life? If my life is boring, you must be on some roller coaster. Enjoy the ride.

[Pass That Shit]

"From a philosophical standpoint, the burden of proof is upon the accuser"

And about your earlier comment, you're the one accusing that God is not in me. You would have to provide the proof to call me a liar. By the way, Satan is known as "the accuser". Instead of attacking one another, we should see ourselves as a small group of people seeking truth.

[MastaChronic]

you're the one accusing that God is not in me.

well, IS god inside of you? does it feel good when he's inside of you? how far does he go inside of you? how long is he inside of you? is he inside of you often? do you like it when he's inside of you?

[Stedric]

Do you know me? Do you know that my life is boring? Me and my nephew just had guns pulled on us a few days ago. He lost his two front teeth from a pistil whipping, and I somehow managed to get away safe. These two fuckz had hoodies and masks. We were just hanging out and they came out of the dark. Scary shit. I ran away in zig zags thinking a bullet was gonna hit me in the back. You reply telling me that my life is boring, without knowing anything about it. Actually, you do know something. I'm enjoying the high life just like the next guy here. A few months ago a guy pulled a gun on me and robbed me in my car. I was trying to tell you that even though these things happened to me, I have joy in my heart, knowing that the things that make my heart hurt now, will not enter into the Kingdom of God. Nothing that offends will. What does faith in God have to do with living a boring life? If my life is boring, you must be on some roller coaster. Enjoy the ride.

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't look down on you and I don't think your beliefs are stupid. I was only explaining my beliefs, and what I find interesting about not having a religion is that not everything has an explanation.

I never meant to insult you, and I get a little carried away by my own arguments, for that I apologize. I'm very sorry to hear about you and your nephew. My intent was not to insult or belittle you, you have thought out your own beliefs intelligently and thoroughly.

A good argument makes for a good discussion, thats all. I'm sure you have God in your heart if you believe you do.

[Pass That Shit]

well, IS god inside of you? does it feel good when he's inside of you? how far does he go inside of you? how long is he inside of you? is he inside of you often? do you like it when he's inside of you?

Yes
Yes
Deep, my loins and reins
Forever, he promised he won't leave me
Yes, he never forsakes me
Yes, he brings me joy and strength in this cold world

Your name should be MastaCrap for what's coming out of your mouth. Keep in mind, that it will be your words that will either justify you or condemn you. You lack wisdom and understanding to be joking about the Spirit of God. It's called blasphemy. People think that God dwells in buildings of stone that man builds. Rather, he dwells inside us. We are the temple of the living God. MastaCrap, I'm confident that your eyes will see the one I preach. Cause if the scriptures are true, which I believe they are, every eye will see him. Be ready.

Stedric, I appreciate your words. I had to defend my faith.

[MastaChronic]

man, just take a joke would ya? i dont consider it blasphemy to poke a little fun at god and religeon , "laughter is gods gift on a troubled world" so someone said, sometime

[Mud Dauber]

Seriously, I don't know which question you are talking about. I looked back and couldn't see it. If the question is right there in your mind let it pop out and I'll do my best to answer it.

It's not that thing about a woman not being logical is it? I have to say I didn't get what you were trying to ask me if it is.

Fire away, I'm ready.
I asked you to prove that God doesn't exist. :)

I think I asked it a couple of times, maybe you need to check out some reading glasses. ;)

[Mud Dauber]

man, just take a joke would ya? i dont consider it blasphemy to poke a little fun at god and religeon , "laughter is gods gift on a troubled world" so someone said, sometime
That's not a very nice joke though, is it ? :(

[MastaChronic]

That's not a very nice joke though, is it ? :(

i will admit that readily, but in my defense, his post was wide open for it, plus i thought it was pretty funny and ive gotten a some good laughs about it when i went to a church youth group once and asked the reverend those exact questions

[Krogith]

I like being able to discuss these things. How are we supost to belive anything if it doesn't make sence, and we don't even talk about it. Please discusess your point of view I'm so curious. Never take what I say as an Attack I just want to make sence of it, so I ask.

[mrdevious]

I asked you to prove that God doesn't exist. :)


lol, does this question ever go away? Guess what, I know something nobody here knows. There are these jellyfish. They live far far away, in another galaxy. They are invisible, they have near-infinite power to conceal themselves, and every so often they get together for tea and crumpets. Can you prove they don't exist? Come on, try it, I bet you can't. So I guess the existence or non-existence of the jellyfish stand on equal ground right?
well not really, because if you claim there exists something that nobody has ever seen, can't be presented to anybody, and has no empiracle evidence of its existence, it doesn't just get equal validity for the soul reason that I claimed it to be so.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go pray to the jellyfish. You can't prove they're any less valid than your god.

[Krogith]

The bible stands in your way. Prove the bible wrong. These things were writen long ago and science today still says it's accerate. And The prophecys have come true and are being Proven right today. If you have such a accerate rendering of these jellyfish please share it. Show me how they have matched perfectly with what has happend and how theres not one shred of it Wrong.

Nothing has proven the Bible false. It has to be right and the word of god. Nothing else can stand like the bible can.

The Bible it self , not what false people have tought. False ideas contary to what the bible says are just that, False and missconcived.

[Mud Dauber]

lol, does this question ever go away? Guess what, I know something nobody here knows. There are these jellyfish. They live far far away, in another galaxy. They are invisible, they have near-infinite power to conceal themselves, and every so often they get together for tea and crumpets. Can you prove they don't exist? Come on, try it, I bet you can't. So I guess the existence or non-existence of the jellyfish stand on equal ground right?
well not really, because if you claim there exists something that nobody has ever seen, can't be presented to anybody, and has no empiracle evidence of its existence, it doesn't just get equal validity for the soul reason that I claimed it to be so.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go pray to the jellyfish. You can't prove they're any less valid than your god.
Guess what? I wasn't speaking to you :) I was speaking to Iggy.

He had asked me the very same question, and now I'm asking him. There's a saying where I come from, it goes like this : "If I wanted any sh!t out of you, I'd squeeze your head."

(Now THAT, MC, is funny)

And you know what else? I wouldn't care a single bit if you worshipped jellyfish. Whatever blows your skirt up, DOOD. :thumbsup:

[MastaChronic]

what if god was the king of the space jellyfish?

[mrdevious]

The bible stands in your way. Prove the bible wrong. These things were writen long ago and science today still says it's accerate. And The prophecys have come true and are being Proven right today. If you have such a accerate rendering of these jellyfish please share it. Show me how they have matched perfectly with what has happend and how theres not one shred of it Wrong.

Nothing has proven the Bible false. It has to be right and the word of god. Nothing else can stand like the bible can.

The Bible it self , not what false people have tought. False ideas contary to what the bible says are just that, False and missconcived.

Well Krogith, it seems while plenty of people were happy to jump on me for the jellyfish analogy, only you had sense to actually challenge it. However, I suggest everybody take a look at these...

http://www.churchofreality.org/opinion/noah.htm (in regard to noah)

http://members.aol.com/matt103436/Non-Existent.htm (skip to "flaws in the bible")

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/flaws.html

http://www.exposingchristianity.com/New%20Testament.html

http://www.exposingchristianity.com/Old%20Testament.html

http://godisimaginary.com/ (just a good read)

[Krogith]

Looking up these scriptures you have just cited. and there not even quoteing the scripture right. one of the reasons that it's wrong is because Joseph wasn't his blood father? He was born of a virgin and Joseph was his father not blood father.

The blood line was pointing where he would come from, He could not be born of any normal conception because he was to be born of a virgin. So the blood line just pointed to what family. These are just people takeing it out of contex and distorting it.

[Krogith]

Jesus says that some of his listeners will not taste death before he comes again in his kingdom. This was said almost 2000 years ago. (Note: This and many other passages indicate that Jesus was to come again in a relatively short period of time and not just "quickly" as present day Biblicists assert. All of his listeners are now dead, yet Jesus has not come again in his kingdom. All of the alleged words of Jesus recorded in the Bible are therefore suspect.

^^^^ from your sources
Just an exsample
Hes talking about the last days. people of the last days preaching his word could not have to die. People who have recived his word and who follow his teaching could live through the last days (armageddon) Thoses looking for the signs will know when the last days are here.

[MastaChronic]

maybe he actually meant that some of his listeners wont taste death because some of them are immortal and they all live in an extremely secluded mountain community located somewhere in tibet.....

[Krogith]

and Yhwh is how his name is scribed in the hebrew scriptures. Jehovah Is a english rendering. Regardless of how the spelling is. He is One God and God of All creation that is the point. If im saying the name wrong in my langue it makes no differnce. He is still the God of Isaac, Jacob and Moses.

[MastaChronic]

actually yes, that is how his name would be translated letter for letter, btw how would pronounce that?

[Mud Dauber]

what if god was the king of the space jellyfish?
What if ?

[Krogith]

hes jokeing (I hope) I laughed:thumbsup:

[Ignatius]

In answer to your question Mud Dauber.

I can't prove that God exists, neither can I prove that he doesn't.

What I can say, based on empirical evidence, is that the existence of God is extremely unlikely. The only way to believe is through faith, and God has provided me with no reason to have faith in him.

I make my living from gambling (poker since you asked:) ) and I wouldn't bet a nickel on his existence. I'd stake every chip I had on there being no God.

I imagine you'd stake everything on there being a God. That's your faith working over my reason. And vice versa..

Peace to you.

[MastaChronic]

yes i was joking. aww man, i just gleeked all over my keyboard :(

[Pass That Shit]

LOL

Jesus is coming (look busy)

[Krogith]

Be bizzy teaching others. Looking bizzy will lead to death. Have to have it in your heart. ( not agenst anyone just saying)

[Pass That Shit]

It was a joke, I'm sure some found it funny :)

We can go back and forth until Jesus comes, but why bother? Do you realize that no matter what you tell them, you will never CONVINCE them? Why spend so much energy on teaching unbelievers? You sound just like religion dude.

"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject"

[Krogith]

All need knoladge, and all need a chance. People are confused is all. Satan has made a world full of uncertainty. You can easly get lost in the lies and miss conceptions. My love for all Mankind Drives me to Teach what I Can about Jehovah Gods word.

[Pass That Shit]

Krogith,

I'm not sure what you're preaching, but I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He is the Word of God. He is God himself.

[MastaChronic]

i thought it was funny pass that shit

[Mud Dauber]

In answer to your question Mud Dauber.

I can't prove that God exists, neither can I prove that he doesn't.

What I can say, based on empirical evidence, is that the existence of God is extremely unlikely. The only way to believe is through faith, and God has provided me with no reason to have faith in him.

I make my living from gambling (poker since you asked:) ) and I wouldn't bet a nickel on his existence. I'd stake every chip I had on there being no God.

I imagine you'd stake everything on there being a God. That's your faith working over my reason. And vice versa..

Peace to you.
Poker? That's hilarious.

Tell me what the empirical evidence is.

[Krogith]

Krogith,

I'm not sure what you're preaching, but I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He is the Word of God. He is God himself.

See beliveing in the trinity is not bible based. No man could See god and yet live. Jesus was gods 1st creation. Jehovah god used Jesus as a master worker. Jesus told you to never bow down to him and to always Direct worship to his Father in heaven.

There not one in the same.

[Ignatius]

It's not down to me to prove that God doesn't exist, it's down to you to prove he does. This point has been explained again and again, most succintly by Mr Devious in his "jellyfish" analogy.

Why is poker hilarious? It's my job, nothing else. I'm not trying to ascribe some spiritual meaning to it.

[LuckyCharms]

here ill put it this way do you really think that everything that is could have came from nothing or even a big bang.
if you take a watch smash it into a million pieces put it into a bag and shake it for 10 billion years what are the chances when you reach into that bag you'll pull out a watch ticking and on time.
same thing goes for the world something had to make it this way.
i do believe in a creator but fuck religion its a way to supress people and get them to do what the pope,government and plain old nice people want you to do.

[Pass That Shit]

See beliveing in the trinity is not bible based. No man could See god and yet live. Jesus was gods 1st creation. Jehovah god used Jesus as a master worker. Jesus told you to never bow down to him and to always Direct worship to his Father in heaven.

There not one in the same.

What trinity? I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three are ONE. I can see you don't know the difference between the son of man and the Son of God?

Are you trinity? Or one person? Don't you have one body, one soul, one spirit? How many people are you? Were we not made in his image?


Kgorith wrote: "No man could See god and yet live"

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.



Didn't Moses see God face to face like I would have seen you in the street? And yes, Moses lived after seing God face to face.

Your religion is misguiding you in the scriptures, cause people bowed down to Jesus in the new testament. They worshipped him. You are accusing that worshipping Jesus is wrong and those people were not of God. That is your private interpretation. They believed in Jesus and they bowed to him cause they believed he was the Son of God. He recieved worship. Did Jesus ever tell anyone not to worship him? Did he ever reject it? Don't kid yourself. Those people bowed down and worshipped God according to the scriptures.

In the old testament The GOD of Jacob says that he is the only Savior. In the new testament it says that Jesus is the Savior. You are trying to make them out to be 2 but the scriptures teach that there is only one God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. You are obviously not a Christian cause you don't believe in him. When I see Jesus I will bow to him. Your preaching that God is not a man even though God made us in his "image". Image is something you can see. God made man in his image. That's why we look like him.

[LuckyCharms]

ok so if god is real and he created the entire universe
this is believed as thruth by religious people but if that is so nothing could have been created without god so my question to you is if everything came from God how did God get here

[Mud Dauber]

It's not down to me to prove that God doesn't exist, it's down to you to prove he does. This point has been explained again and again, most succintly by Mr Devious in his "jellyfish" analogy.

Why is poker hilarious? It's my job, nothing else. I'm not trying to ascribe some spiritual meaning to it.
I "respectfully" disagree, Iggy. You stated that there was empirical evidence, I asked you what it was. Why are you skirting the issue ? Just answer the question.

Why do you assume that I was laughing at your "living" because I thought you were trying to ascribe some spiritual meaning to it ? :confused:

I can't imagine poker is a good way to make a living and support a family unless you're cheating at it.

[Pass That Shit]

[quote=Ignatius]It's not down to me to prove that God doesn't exist, it's down to you to prove he does. This point has been explained again and again, most succintly by Mr Devious in his "jellyfish" analogy.

What you fail to see in this conversation is that there are many people who have given their account about God. It's their testimony you are accusing. They have put down on paper that they seen him. People wrote down on paper that they seen Jesus die. People wrote down on paper good tidings that he rose after they had killed him. They are spreading the word that there is more life after death cause the eyes of man have seen it. These testimonies have come from every generation. You may find this comical, but at the resurrection of Jesus, other men rose out of their tombs as well and went and appeared unto all. So the word spread of these events. Jesus must have been the most controversial man ever to create the kind of stir that he did that still exists about him until this day. Look at what's going on in the Middle East because of the words of Jesus. See, I think I disregard science (the findings of man) as not being accurate just like you disregard his word of not being accurate. Even though a scientist tells me something, it doesn't make his facts true. Just how you feel about his word. At one point, man thought the earth was square. Now they figured out that it's round. What they still don't know is that it has four corners.


And by the way, are the tables rigged? Once I played black 4 times straight, and I lost my $200 pretty quick. I was like, is there a button they press so it doesn't land on black? LOL

[Krogith]

What trinity? I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three are ONE. I can see you don't know the difference between the son of man and the Son of God?

Are you trinity? Or one person? Don't you have one body, one soul, one spirit? How many people are you? Were we not made in his image?


Kgorith wrote: "No man could See god and yet live"

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.



Didn't Moses see God face to face like I would have seen you in the street? And yes, Moses lived after seing God face to face.

Your religion is misguiding you in the scriptures, cause people bowed down to Jesus in the new testament. They worshipped him. You are accusing that worshipping Jesus is wrong and those people were not of God. That is your private interpretation. They believed in Jesus and they bowed to him cause they believed he was the Son of God. He recieved worship. Did Jesus ever tell anyone not to worship him? Did he ever reject it? Don't kid yourself. Those people bowed down and worshipped God according to the scriptures.

In the old testament The GOD of Jacob says that he is the only Savior. In the new testament it says that Jesus is the Savior. You are trying to make them out to be 2 but the scriptures teach that there is only one God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. You are obviously not a Christian cause you don't believe in him. When I see Jesus I will bow to him. Your preaching that God is not a man even though God made us in his "image". Image is something you can see. God made man in his image. That's why we look like him.

Jehovah God is the Father and Jesus was created. Only the Father knows the time of the end not the son. Jesus is following his Fathers exsample and is a servant just as much as we are. He has a differnt role to play but a fellow slave non the less.

Do not confuse your self and pray to Jesus. We pray to Jehovah God ( YhWh in hebrew) Through Jesus Christ. Through Jesus we get to know about his Father there not one in the same.


Jesus Did tell people Not to worship him.

[Pass That Shit]

You don't understand the son of man and the Son of God principle. The Son of God has no decent. He has no father or mother. He has no beginning of days or end of life. Read about Melchisedec. He was made like the Son of God. You're only testifying that jesus is the son of man, but you're denying that he's the Son of God. The jews rejected Jesus as the Son of God, but they knew that their messiah would be God himself. They knew that it would be God himself that would save them. They just didn't believe it was Jesus, and are still waiting to be delivered.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Nothing was made that was made without him. He is "before" all things. Jesus came to save "his" peole from their sins. Jesus said that Moses' writings are his words. You are just repeating the false religious teachings that are out there. Jesus is the Word of God.

I wonder why you didn't provide any scripture in your reply? The word proved you wrong about seeing God and you just ignored it and preached religion. Did Phillip not ask Jesus to show them the Father? What did Jesus tell him? He said he who hath "seen" me hath "seen" the Father.

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins"

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

[Ignatius]

God doesn't exist.

If he does then why doesn't he show himself? It's no good others telling me he does. Right now we really could use him. If he exists why doesn't he come here right now and show us. No ambiguity, nothing like that. Just show up and make sure everyone sees he's real, then he can go back to wherever he came from and we can all worship him for ever and ever amen.

It's not much to ask. Instead of that we are asked to rely on a book which is open to thousands of interpretations. Religion is the cause of nearly every war in the world right now. Surely God should show us a sign? Let us know he's around.

There is NO scientific reason to believe in God. It is purely a matter of faith. You'll not find me knocking anyone's faith, but it's anything but scientific. I believe in science. Science tells me that if I stick my hand in the fire I get burned. And guess what...it's true. Science tells me about gravity, and I can prove that right now. I just threw a ball in the air, and it came back down. Now God...he tells me (via a book) that all kinds of things are going to happen, or have happened. And guess what...none of it can be proved. It's all about faith, and I have none. An entirely rational position. I think faith is irrational, by it's very nature it must be. God asks you to have faith and belief, good for you if you have it, but I'm not buying it.

Mud Dauber, I've explained this again and again so this really is the last time. I think you are trying to yank my chain, good luck with that.

Here it is again, in the simplest terms I can put it. If I tell you that there is a man in the corner, and you can't see him, then it's down to me to prove that he is there. It's not down to you to prove that he isn't.

The thing about poker... it's not fixed, I make a decent amount of cash from it, and I work another job as back up. It's certainly possible to win money at poker if you play the percentages and you understand what those percentages are. There's no real mystery to it. Online is pretty good, but I like a face to face game in the casino. There's a lot of players there who think that poker is all about smoking a big cigar and trying to stare the other guy down...just like the movies. We call them fish, and I'll eat them all day.

[Pass That Shit]

"If he does then why doesn't he show himself? It's no good others telling me he doesn't. Right now we really could use him. If he exists why doesn't he come here right now and show us. No ambiguity, nothing like that. Just show up and make sure everyone sees he's real, then he can go back to wherever he came from and we can all worship him for ever and ever amen."

Keep in mind that this did happen, except that since your own eyes haven't seen it, you don't think it happened. I told you people saw Jesus come back after he was put to death. I would have listened to him If I had seen him too. So his fame traveled and so we're still giving him glory today. His word will continue forever and ever.

Your example about seing a man in the corner is a bad one. There are plenty of writings left by people from different generations that point to the same God. So it's you that has to prove that these writings are wrong. It's not one person, it's a whole movement. I believe that what they wrote is true so I don't have to prove them wrong. The bottom line is that we were left the Word of God, and it's you that has to prove it wrong. Good Luck with that. You put your faith in man (cause you accept science as truth) and I put my faith in God (cause I accept his word as truth). As far as proof though, proof will depend on your faith. Cause to me, everything around me is the proof of God and you'll say it's the proof of science. Science is not a Creator. Without God, we would have no science. Cause everything came out of him.

How come science hasn't proven that there's a hell under the earth? It's like a furnace. I saw a movie in 3D IMAX and they showed these little holes at the bottom of the ocean. You know what came out of those holes? Heat blowing out making the water boil. I forget how many degrees they said it made the water. I think it was about 600 or 700 degrees of hot and boiling springs at the bottom of the ocean. That's some deep shit. Once again, science finding facts to prove the accuracy of the Word of God.

[Krogith]

You don't understand the son of man and the Son of God principle. The Son of God has no decent. He has no father or mother. He has no beginning of days or end of life. Read about Melchisedec. He was made like the Son of God. You're only testifying that jesus is the son of man, but you're denying that he's the Son of God. The jews rejected Jesus as the Son of God, but they knew that their messiah would be God himself. They knew that it would be God himself that would save them. They just didn't believe it was Jesus, and are still waiting to be delivered.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Nothing was made that was made without him. He is "before" all things. Jesus came to save "his" peole from their sins. Jesus said that Moses' writings are his words. You are just repeating the false religious teachings that are out there. Jesus is the Word of God.

I wonder why you didn't provide any scripture in your reply? The word proved you wrong about seeing God and you just ignored it and preached religion. Did Phillip not ask Jesus to show them the Father? What did Jesus tell him? He said he who hath "seen" me hath "seen" the Father. Getting to know jesus will help you get to know his Father in Heaven

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins"

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

De 6:4 ; Mal 2:10 ; Mr 10:18 ; Ro 3:29,30 ;
Re 3:14 ; Col 1:15 ; Isa 44:6
Php 2:5,6 ; Da 4:35
Php 2:10,11 ; John 8:42; 12:49

He is the son of Jehovah god.

1Co 11:3 ; John 20:17 ; Re 1:6

Jesus Is a representive of his Father and Getting to know him is Getting to know his Father. Your confused Read the scriptures

[Krogith]

God doesn't exist.

If he does then why doesn't he show himself? It's no good others telling me he does. Right now we really could use him. If he exists why doesn't he come here right now and show us. No ambiguity, nothing like that. Just show up and make sure everyone sees he's real, then he can go back to wherever he came from and we can all worship him for ever and ever amen.

It's not much to ask. Instead of that we are asked to rely on a book which is open to thousands of interpretations. Religion is the cause of nearly every war in the world right now. Surely God should show us a sign? Let us know he's around.

There is NO scientific reason to believe in God. It is purely a matter of faith. You'll not find me knocking anyone's faith, but it's anything but scientific. I believe in science. Science tells me that if I stick my hand in the fire I get burned. And guess what...it's true. Science tells me about gravity, and I can prove that right now. I just threw a ball in the air, and it came back down. Now God...he tells me (via a book) that all kinds of things are going to happen, or have happened. And guess what...none of it can be proved. It's all about faith, and I have none. An entirely rational position. I think faith is irrational, by it's very nature it must be. God asks you to have faith and belief, good for you if you have it, but I'm not buying it.

Mud Dauber, I've explained this again and again so this really is the last time. I think you are trying to yank my chain, good luck with that.

Here it is again, in the simplest terms I can put it. If I tell you that there is a man in the corner, and you can't see him, then it's down to me to prove that he is there. It's not down to you to prove that he isn't.

The thing about poker... it's not fixed, I make a decent amount of cash from it, and I work another job as back up. It's certainly possible to win money at poker if you play the percentages and you understand what those percentages are. There's no real mystery to it. Online is pretty good, but I like a face to face game in the casino. There's a lot of players there who think that poker is all about smoking a big cigar and trying to stare the other guy down...just like the movies. We call them fish, and I'll eat them all day.


We are being challanged by Satan. He says we do not need God and we can be god's of our selfs. This world is proveing him a liar. What we see happening today is proof. All this has purpose and a Greater Goal. Don't fall into Satan's thinking and die along with him.

[MastaChronic]

this is to be my last post on this topic people, this argument is going around in circles, no one is going to change the way that they look at the bible, so all in all this argumant is really just a circle because it has no end, and it cannot have an end. i have just one question, if god created the heavens and the earth and, well, everything, who or what created god?

[Krogith]

this is to be my last post on this topic people, this argument is going around in circles, no one is going to change the way that they look at the bible, so all in all this argumant is really just a circle because it has no end, and it cannot have an end. i have just one question, if god created the heavens and the earth and, well, everything, who or what created god?


Has always been, and will always be. He is the energy that can not go away and has always been.

[Duckys]

LOL Religion! Its just used to help people deal with things they cant understand. Like death..

But the people who believe god exists are going to do so no matter what you say because thats how they were brought up. Ignorance is bliss.

[Pass That Shit]

I agree Masta, this will be never ending. Like a Merry Go Round.

Masta, it would be like me asking you were did life in general come from? Where did it start and how did it get there? We just have to take it for what it is. He is Eternal. Always WAS, IS, and always WILL be. God is Super Natural.

Krogith, you say I'm confused but it's you that has to change what the scriptures say to preach your gospel. I gave you his word and you preached that he was a representative even though the scriptures say that it was "God with us". You like to change the word of God to make your point. So basically, you believe in two LORD's right? You say that Jesus is not the LORD of the old testament. That means that there is another LORD. In the new testament is says that Jesus is Lord. If he is Lord and he's not the only LORD, then you believe that there is more than ONE Lord. So I guess it's you that believes in the trinity, not me. I preach one God. If you believe that Jesus is Lord, and he's not God, then you contradict yourself. Cause the entire bible is about the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

If you're making any kind of sense you should have an answer for this question: Jesus says in Matthew that where two or three are gathered together in his name, that he's there in their midst. How can Jesus be present with two believers if not in the Spirit? Jesus is the Holy Spirit. See how I preach ONE God and you're the one preaching the trinity? You say that there are three Gods and I say that there is ONE God. Your gospel is FALSE. Jesus is LORD.

You need to start thinking for yourself. You should start repeating the word instead of the word of the pastor. I have heard alot of people that sound exactly like you. Sorry, but you have been programmed. I admit that I'm programmed as well, but at least it's by his word. You guys want to change the scriptures to accomodate your point of views. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. Why do you guys say that the word was a God? You're implying that there are more than one. See what I mean about that trinity thing again. You are the one who is preching the trinity. I believe in one God.

[Krogith]

I have not changed anything. The Name of his father is Jehovah ( english) and is Yhwh in herbrew. Go look it up. Look how it's spelled in the Dead sea Scroles ( Oldest vershion we have today). It's just a matter of miss conception.

If the named of God wasn't taken out by the roman cathloic chirch we wouldn't even be haveing this disscushion. Look it up. and look at the scriptures i cited. Compare all the Lord and lord In your bible. The Capital Lord is Jehovah God in the herbrew script and the lower case is refering to Jesus. I have done the reaserch looking for the truth. Look for your self and please don't just wave your hand and forget.

Just compair all the scripts I cited and look up the dead sea scrolles for the most accerate translation.

[Krogith]

John 17:3. Read it

How does God send someone if it is him self?

[IanCurtisWishlist]

jesus this.
moses that.
abraham hit me with a wiffle ball bat.

[Krogith]

Galatians 3 :20
Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, But God is only One.

READ Please
1 Corinthians 8 :4-6

[Mud Dauber]

God doesn't exist.

If he does then why doesn't he show himself? It's no good others telling me he does. Right now we really could use him. If he exists why doesn't he come here right now and show us. No ambiguity, nothing like that. Just show up and make sure everyone sees he's real, then he can go back to wherever he came from and we can all worship him for ever and ever amen.

It's not much to ask. Instead of that we are asked to rely on a book which is open to thousands of interpretations. Religion is the cause of nearly every war in the world right now. Surely God should show us a sign? Let us know he's around.

There is NO scientific reason to believe in God. It is purely a matter of faith. You'll not find me knocking anyone's faith, but it's anything but scientific. I believe in science. Science tells me that if I stick my hand in the fire I get burned. And guess what...it's true. Science tells me about gravity, and I can prove that right now. I just threw a ball in the air, and it came back down. Now God...he tells me (via a book) that all kinds of things are going to happen, or have happened. And guess what...none of it can be proved. It's all about faith, and I have none. An entirely rational position. I think faith is irrational, by it's very nature it must be. God asks you to have faith and belief, good for you if you have it, but I'm not buying it.

Mud Dauber, I've explained this again and again so this really is the last time. I think you are trying to yank my chain, good luck with that.

Here it is again, in the simplest terms I can put it. If I tell you that there is a man in the corner, and you can't see him, then it's down to me to prove that he is there. It's not down to you to prove that he isn't.

The thing about poker... it's not fixed, I make a decent amount of cash from it, and I work another job as back up. It's certainly possible to win money at poker if you play the percentages and you understand what those percentages are. There's no real mystery to it. Online is pretty good, but I like a face to face game in the casino. There's a lot of players there who think that poker is all about smoking a big cigar and trying to stare the other guy down...just like the movies. We call them fish, and I'll eat them all day.
(Serves me right for trying to cook dinner and reply at the same time, my session timed out and I lost everything I had typed ! So here goes again)

"God doesn't exist." "If he does then why doesn't he show himself?"

You said you had empirical evidence that God doesn't exist. What experiments have you done to prove this ? Are you familiar with quantum theory, or the spacial fourth dimension ? Do you believe in such things, even though you have never seen either, or proof of either ? I am surprised at someone with your alleged intelligence (I say alleged, as I don't know you) saying that none of the events in the Bible have ever been proven. Are you not familiar with history, or with archeology ? Both have proven that elements of the Bible are true, mostly in the New Testament. Many of the people have been proven to have existed, as with the places and events. Many of these accounts were written by people who did not follow Jesus.

You believe in science, you say - archeology is a science, too. Is it not just as important as physics ? Or chemistry ?

You said earlier that you have faith in humans. What kind of faith, faith that they are going to step on you in every fashion so that they can get what they want ?

I'm not trying to yank your chain Iggy - I'm just trying to find out why your brain works the way it does.

Is there any empirical evidence that poker can support a family ? ;)

Let me tell you something, as I would like to see what you think of this. I have a friend that I've known for eons. Her mother took her to church sporadically as a child, but she stopped going probably around middle school. She had a very difficult childhood, and went off the deep end several times as a teenager. She ended up being a stripper, a crack head, and a rape victim, which resulted in pregnancy. I was her only loyal friend through all this. She was never a religious person, in fact she shunned the church, just as she shunned her mother and stepfather. Fast forward many years, and she is driving home in the middle of the night, down a two-lane road in the country. She lost control of her car going around a curve, and went into the woods where she hit a tree. She was nearly decapitated, broke all of her ribs, and completely crushed her left leg. I drove a hundred and fifty miles to visit her in the hospital, and saw her in traction with an ear-to-ear gash that had missed the jugular by a fraction of an inch. When she got out of the hospital months later, she sat me down and told me exactly what had happened. She said that when the paramedics came to cut her out of the car, she was sitting in a tree above them watching the whole thing. She reminded me that she was never religious, agnostic at a stretch, and went on to tell me that while she was sitting in the tree, watching her broken body bleed, that she felt the presence of God "sitting" right there beside her on the limb. She said he told her that she was going to be okay, and although she was "ready to go" with him, he "put" her back into her body. (I'm using the words she used, she said there wasn't really any way she could describe it properly) Her doctors performed surgery on her for 12 hours, and told her that they were completely astonished that she lived.

What do you make of that ? Brain farts ? ;)

[Pass That Shit]

LOL, did it hurt?

Krogith, you want to generalize and jump around cause you're avoiding his word. Why don't you stay still and talk about one point and I'm sure it will come to the light.

You still avoided everything I said to you. You won't be able to prove your point with sound doctine. You will have to "teach" what it means instead of just repeating the sound words that can't be condemned. Like you said earlier, your instruction is to be out teaching heathen. I don't know where you get that from, but I think it turns into $$$ for your leaders. Jehovah Witness go door to door to talk to people. Bring in the members. There is no true religion out there. The oldest church standing today is a synagoge. The only people with religion in the bible were the jews. All current religions have been started by some man. We are built upon the apostles and prophets and Jesus is the corner stone. We don't go and start a new religion. We are the living stones that get added to that holy temple.

[Krogith]

Are your reading the scriptures I'm citeing? I'm backing up what im telling you with bible facts.

[Pass That Shit]

[quote=Krogith]Galatians 3 :20
Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, But God is only One.

You don't even understand what you're saying. I'm the one trying to tell you that Jesus is God. You are the one trying to say that Jesus is a mediator. God is one. Jesus is LORD.

[Krogith]

Jesus is lord over us by means of his father. Through Jesus we can draw close to what God wants us to be doing. Through Jesus ( his death and by following what he did) we can recive everlasting life from his Father Jehovah (yhwh). Your makeing jesus ( a creation) equle to God wich he is not. Jesus is our Lord and saveur. Your takeing a Title like president and saying it's god.

Jesus was 1st of all creation. He is Jehovah God's son, and lord of all other creation because hes Jehovah God's master Worker. Through Jesus all other things were created. But it was still Jehovah god's will. Jesus can't do anything with out Jehovah God's say so.

If you choose not to look the scripts I cited for you Thats on you.

[Pass That Shit]

Why did Jesus say that the writings of Moses were his words? Answer: Cause Jesus is the Word of God. Just like it says in the book of John. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

When was God manifest in the flesh?

[Inferius]

jesus this.
moses that.
abraham hit me with a wiffle ball bat.

Let the sinning... Begin.

I don't have faith in religion primarily for one reason.
Krogith said it.
"We are being challanged by Satan. He says we do not need God and we can be god's of our selfs."
If I were to somehow beleive that I truly can't be a god of myself, I would feel there is no point to my life. My absolute inner-most incentive to live is that I hold my reality, my future, and maybe even my possible after life in my hands.
To be handed the rules of existence and reality on a platter, all neat and simplified, with a nice big fat "All You Need Is Faith", defies the very core of my rational mind. It would destroy the fabric of my sanity to beleive in religion.
I've always seen religious people as beneath me. They're either sheep, lazy, or cowards. It's for simpler people.
The whole story seems so silly to me. Like a fairy tale. Honestly, if it wasn't for the style it was written, I prolly would have read the bible front to back like various other fantasy novels in my collection.

I am my own God.
Religions influence on mankind has done nothing but bad. If you ask me, Faith is Satan. The bible was written by evil. The higher powers are looking down on our planet, with a sad grim expression on their face.

[Krogith]

Why did Jesus say that the writings of Moses were his words? Answer: Cause Jesus is the Word of God. Just like it says in the book of John. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

When was God manifest in the flesh?

Jesus lead a perfect life and was the word of god. In the beginning The word you speak of WAS THE WILL OF GOD this is saying that no matter what happend his Word will happen. Just because Satan has bumbed us God Word will still rule and suceed. Jesus was of course The Word of God He spoke and tought in the SAME WAY GOD WOULD OF. His Words would be the same as if God Was speaking. He tought Exactly as his FATHER IN HEAVEN WOULD. Read carefully all the scriptures. And seriously goto some dead sea scroll references or another old translation.

[Krogith]

In Scripture (http://www.newadvent.org/bible) there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14625a.htm) about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14520c.htm) ("De pud." c. xxi). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11306b.htm) ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07015a.htm). In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:

This is from The New Catholic encyclopedia

Sounds to me like it's made up after christ. Don't you think if it was true earlyer bible writers would have it in the text? I could bring up more if you want?

It's just a simple missconception Passed to the masses who don;t want to look stuff up for them self. It has no bible baises and is missleading.

Also please 2 corinthians 1:3

[Mud Dauber]

I've always seen religious people as beneath me. They're either sheep, lazy, or cowards. It's for simpler people.
My, aren't you an arrogant ass ?

Educated, as well. :thumbsup:

[Mud Dauber]

LOL Religion! Its just used to help people deal with things they cant understand. Like death..

But the people who believe god exists are going to do so no matter what you say because thats how they were brought up. Ignorance is bliss.
I know numerous people who had never set foot in a church until they were grown.

[Inferius]

My, aren't you an arrogant ass ?

Educated, as well. :thumbsup:

I'm just being honest.
And stoned.

[Inferius]

sorry if I sound like an idiot.
i used to get worried that I did,
but it would take away from the high,
So I guess i've become too comfortable with my stoned stupidity.

[Mud Dauber]

sorry if I sound like an idiot.
i used to get worried that I did,
but it would take away from the high,
So I guess i've become too comfortable with my stoned stupidity.
ha ha ha ! At least you're honest about it ;)

[Pass That Shit]

Krogith,

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me"

"TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you."

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Since you are denying Jesus, then you don't know the Father. You are just like those who put Jesus to the cross. He claimed to be "equal" with God, so they killed him. You are doing the same thing as they did unto him.

In the old testament:

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

In the new testament:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

[MastaChronic]

I AM THAT IS! worship me, and i will give you cheese and crackers....am i a god yet? lol, sorry this post isnt supposed to exist

[Krogith]

Krogith,

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me" ( Drawing close to Jesus is getting to Know his Father)

"TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." ( Talking to pagan god's, has nothing to do with Jesus being God)

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." ( If you deny Jesus and him dieing for your sins then how can you except his father in heaven that sent him forth)

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." ( If you do not belive that Jesus is Gods Son and the 1st of all creation and he died for your sins, Than you can not ever Draw close to Jehovah God)

Since you are denying Jesus, then you don't know the Father. You are just like those who put Jesus to the cross. He claimed to be "equal" with God, so they killed him. You are doing the same thing as they did unto him.

In the old testament:

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." ( Jesus Was Sent By his Father the one who was TALKING to Moses)

In the new testament:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (( Jesus was 1st of all creation and was and is in Heaven with the angles, That where created by him through the WORD OF HIS FATHER JEHOVAH) of couse he was around befor abraham)


Mark 13:32 "But of that day or that hour no one knows, Not even the angles in heaven, nor the Son, But only the Father"

am I helping you understand? I have never forsaken Jesus and the role he plays, only by means of him can we even talk to his father, let alone recive what is ment for us after armageddon. But putting Jesus as God is Wrong.

Jesus is still our lord. He rules us under Jehovah God's laws

[Ignatius]

Mud Dauber, I have empirical evidence that poker can support a family because I do it myself. Is that good enough for you? I'm not suggesting that anyone can do it, it requires a certain patience, and some skill and the ability to count. Not everyone has these skills.

Maybe I used the wrong words to explain my position re God. What I am saying is that there is no empirical evidence to support his existence. It is a matter of faith, not science. You agree with this, surely?

I can't see God all around me, I see phenomena as yet unexplained. I am sure that, in time, science will offer explanations. I am not a scientist, but I trust in science. Science invented the internal combustion engine and the jet engine, and I can now fly at the speed of sound if I so wish. God hasn't shown me a way to do that without science.

There are many explanations for your friend's experience. Perhaps it is because so many stories do the rounds about out of body experiences that they sink into our subconscious and come out at times like this. You know, if you are knocked out you can have all kinds of out of body experiences. I've been knocked out (I mean sparko) on two occasions and I experienced a similar thing (though not quite so vivid) myself. Certain opiates can provide the same thing. I don't know how familiar you are with opiates but I can assure you it is a common occurence. The same with LSD. That will make anyone see God, but I prefer an alternative explanation. I don't have all the answers, or even any of them really, but that does not mean I put it down to God by default.

You have faith, I do not. If God is a force for good, let him show it. To use a poker term, I want to see his hand... I call his Bible and raise hiim the weight of scientific opinion in the wake of the enlightenment.

All in...

(waits to see God's hand) :D

[Krogith]

Ignatius (http://boards.cannabis.com/member.php?u=57233) God has shown his hand through history. Your playing agenst a Royal Flush. with not even a pair

[Ignatius]

I need to see the hand. I've paid for it, it's no good you telling me he has a good hand..I need to see it.

Any time he's ready...

[MastaChronic]

i snuck a peek for you man, he has a duece an ace a queen a five and a 9

[Pass That Shit]

I need to see the hand. I've paid for it, it's no good you telling me he has a good hand..I need to see it.

Any time he's ready...



The dealer is shuffling the cards. Keep your eyes on the dealer and watch his hands. When the dealer flips the cards over, the cards will show their faces to all that are watching.

If you could "see" the hand, you wouldn't have to hope for a good hand.

This doesn't mean that hope has no substance. Hope comes with evidence.

[Mud Dauber]

Mud Dauber, I have empirical evidence that poker can support a family because I do it myself. Is that good enough for you? I'm not suggesting that anyone can do it, it requires a certain patience, and some skill and the ability to count. Not everyone has these skills.

Maybe I used the wrong words to explain my position re God. What I am saying is that there is no empirical evidence to support his existence. It is a matter of faith, not science. You agree with this, surely?

I can't see God all around me, I see phenomena as yet unexplained. I am sure that, in time, science will offer explanations. I am not a scientist, but I trust in science. Science invented the internal combustion engine and the jet engine, and I can now fly at the speed of sound if I so wish. God hasn't shown me a way to do that without science.

There are many explanations for your friend's experience. Perhaps it is because so many stories do the rounds about out of body experiences that they sink into our subconscious and come out at times like this. You know, if you are knocked out you can have all kinds of out of body experiences. I've been knocked out (I mean sparko) on two occasions and I experienced a similar thing (though not quite so vivid) myself. Certain opiates can provide the same thing. I don't know how familiar you are with opiates but I can assure you it is a common occurence. The same with LSD. That will make anyone see God, but I prefer an alternative explanation. I don't have all the answers, or even any of them really, but that does not mean I put it down to God by default.

You have faith, I do not. If God is a force for good, let him show it. To use a poker term, I want to see his hand... I call his Bible and raise hiim the weight of scientific opinion in the wake of the enlightenment.

All in...

(waits to see God's hand) :D
I'm not aware of anyone doing experiments to see if God exists. Are you ? He did, however, give us (some of us ;) ) brilliant minds to be able to invent the internal combustion engine and the jet engine, among other things.

Iggy, you said yourself that you had a second job as backup - so how are you supporting your family with poker ? :D

I would now like to use my brilliant mind to make another observation - either A. you are an insomniac or B. working your two jobs has you up and about at odd hours. If it is B, then either your family also holds odd hours, or you never see them.

I fear that you won't see his hand until you die, Iggy, and then you will be saying OH SH!T, did I really waste all my time on that sorry hand ?

About opiates and LSD - I have done many of both in my lifetime (I was a Wild Child back in the day ;) ), and never have I had an "out of body" experience. Neither have I known anyone on opiates or LSD to have experienced that, and I've known some doozies, I can tell you. Neither have I "seen God" on acid. Your sentence made me burst out laughing. (why don't they have a laugh smiley ?)

[Mud Dauber]

i snuck a peek for you man, he has a duece an ace a queen a five and a 9
I thought you weren't going to post on here anymore ? :confused:

Can't stay away, can you ? :p

[Ignatius]

Mud Dauber, the paucity of your argument leads you to cast aspersions on the time I spend with my family?

Shame on you.

[Mud Dauber]

Mud Dauber, the paucity of your argument leads you to cast aspersions on the time I spend with my family?

Shame on you.
Au contraire ! My argument is neither small, nor am I criticizing you on how you spend your family time !

I merely used the powers of deduction that I so carefully honed in my chemistry classes at college to come to the conclusion that I did. You live in Great Britain, you are posting on here at 9 and 10 PM my time - and since GB only has one time zone, then it is 3 and 4 AM where you are. So, either you are an insomniac, or you work odd hours. :thumbsup: No meanness there, sir. None at all :)

You forget that I also have children, and as I also have a job, I don't always get to spend as much time with them as I would like. I would not slate a fellow working parent.

Do not be so quick to bow up :)

[Ignatius]

But what does the time I do or do not spend with my family have to do with our discussion? It really isn't anyone's business but mine and theirs what hours I keep. We'd all like to spend more time with our children, but work is a necessity. Whether I put my work hours in throught the night, through the day, or a mixture of both is neither here nor there.

Capice kimo sabie?

[Mud Dauber]

But what does the time I do or do not spend with my family have to do with our discussion? It really isn't anyone's business but mine and theirs what hours I keep. We'd all like to spend more time with our children, but work is a necessity. Whether I put my work hours in throught the night, through the day, or a mixture of both is neither here nor there.

Capice kimo sabie?
I do understand, it was just an observation. Don't worry, I often talk about things out of the blue that have no bearing on anything. It drives my loved ones mad. :D

I see you like popular culture. It's "Kemo Sabe", or "Kemosabe", and I'm glad to see that you trust me, and think of me as a friend. ;)

[MastaChronic]

I thought you weren't going to post on here anymore ? :confused:

Can't stay away, can you ? :p

this topic is addicting, i cant help myself :( lol

ive had an out of body expirience on peyote once, and i did see something, it might have been god, but i can tell you this: he doesnt care about individual people, he has an entire universe to look after and cant be bothered with the single human, he does however, care in some small way about the human race in general.

[Krogith]

this topic is addicting, i cant help myself :( lol

ive had an out of body expirience on peyote once, and i did see something, it might have been god, but i can tell you this: he doesnt care about individual people, he has an entire universe to look after and cant be bothered with the single human, he does however, care in some small way about the human race in general.

He Cares about you and every other human. He has given us a way to get to know him and draw close to him. You have to want to seek him out and he will help you. The Bible says he even knows how many hairs are on your head. He knows every little atom in your body and everything that has happend in your life. He forgives you for what you have done and as you draw close to him and apply what he has provided as a Guide line. The Bible. He will help you.


(Passthatshit have you looked up the scriptures i cited ? You never responded after I explained the Text you quoted)

[Krogith]

belive me if Jesus was God it would make sence and I would agree with you. I'm just reading the Text.

Like at Revelation 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God Gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.

How would Jesus be told something by him self? If God knew, How does he have to tell him self something ? Because they are 2 differnt things.

Jesus is the 1st of all creation and God's Son, He was sent forth by his Father Yhwh (Jehovah) To make up for Adams sin. I'm trying to make sence of how you get they are one in the same when the scripture do not suport that idea. Please do not just pass this by and read the scriptures I cited for you please.

[Pass That Shit]

Krogith, I don't want to bother going back and forth with you about it. I feel that you are unlearned in the scriptures. I asked you if you know the difference between the son of man and Son of God? Is Jesus not both? If you don't know the difference between the two, we can't go any further. You keep preaching that Jesus is the son of man but you are denying that he is the Son of God.

[Krogith]

Krogith, I don't want to bother going back and forth with you about it. I feel that you are unlearned in the scriptures. I asked you if you know the difference between the son of man and Son of God? Is Jesus not both? If you don't know the difference between the two, we can't go any further. You keep preaching that Jesus is the son of man but you are denying that he is the Son of God.

De 6:4 ; Mal 2:10 ; Mr 10:18 ; Ro 3:29,30 ;
Re 3:14 ; Col 1:15 ; Isa 44:6
Php 2:5,6 ; Da 4:35
Php 2:10,11 ; John 8:42; 12:49

He is the son of Jehovah god.

1Co 11:3 ; John 20:17 ; Re 1:6

SON of God is not god, He's just what the Son of God means hes his Son, Hes not A god. There is only one God, that would be Jesus christ's Father Jehovah.

Your not even reading what im typeing

Jesus is our Lord under Jehovah God's Rule. I have said this 4 times now you reading it? Through Jesus life and exsamples we can get to know his Father. Jehovah God.

Seriously read what I typed

[MastaChronic]

i thinkl what krogith is trying to say is jesus is like the human mouthpiece of god, like a messenger, but not god himself. not that i really agree with any of you on this subject, but thought i'd try and simplify

[Krogith]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit http://boards.cannabis.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?p=1016808#post1016808)
Krogith,

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me" ( Drawing close to Jesus is getting to Know his Father)

"TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." ( Talking to pagan god's, has nothing to do with Jesus being God)

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." ( If you deny Jesus and him dieing for your sins then how can you except his father in heaven that sent him forth)

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." ( If you do not belive that Jesus is Gods Son and the 1st of all creation and he died for your sins, Than you can not ever Draw close to Jehovah God)

Since you are denying Jesus, then you don't know the Father. You are just like those who put Jesus to the cross. He claimed to be "equal" with God, so they killed him. You are doing the same thing as they did unto him.

In the old testament:

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." ( Jesus Was Sent By his Father the one who was TALKING to Moses)

In the new testament:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

(( Jesus was 1st of all creation and was and is in Heaven with the angles, That where created by him through the WORD OF HIS FATHER JEHOVAH) of couse he was around befor abraham)


Mark 13:32 "But of that day or that hour no one knows, Not even the angles in heaven, nor the Son, But only the Father"

am I helping you understand? I have never forsaken Jesus and the role he plays, only by means of him can we even talk to his father, let alone recive what is ment for us after armageddon. But putting Jesus as God is Wrong.

Jesus is still our lord. He rules us under Jehovah God's laws

did you read what I said? I do not Deny Jesus being God's Son and Sent here by his Father, To die for all mankinds sins. So we can recive everlasting life that ADAM AND EVE LOST.

I never said Jesus wasn't god's son.

De 6:4 ; Mal 2:10 ; Mr 10:18 ; Ro 3:29,30 ;
Re 3:14 ; Col 1:15 ; Isa 44:6
Php 2:5,6 ; Da 4:35
Php 2:10,11 ; John 8:42; 12:49

He is the son of Jehovah god.

1Co 11:3 ; John 20:17 ; Re 1:6

SON of God is not god, He's just what the Son of God means hes his Son, Hes not A god. There is only one God, that would be Jesus christ's Father Jehovah.

Your not even reading what im typeing

Jesus is our Lord under Jehovah God's Rule. I have said this 4 times now you reading it? Through Jesus life and exsamples we can get to know his Father. Jehovah God.

Seriously read what I typed

[Pass That Shit]

Do you understand the difference? It's ok to say NO if you don't. It's obvious to me by the things that you have stated that you don't. I don't want to hear your whole gospel, I'm just asking about son of man and Son of God? If we talk about one thing at a time, it will show which one of us is telling the truth. Don't bother with bible references numbers, just type what you want to say.

[Pass That Shit]

FYI, the Son of God has no father or mother. No descent. No beginning of days and no end of life. You're wrong about Jesus being created, cause he's the Son of God and he's eternal. You're trying to say that Jesus is not the Son of God. I'm telling you Jesus Jesus, and you're telling me NO NO. Isn't it obvious to which one of us is the Christian?


"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

[Krogith]

Your the one not makeing any sence. Jesus was the 1st of all creation
READ
Col 1:15-17

Do you realise your not makeing any sence? Read all the scriptures I quoted.

If you want to belive that Jesus is god thats your problem I'm just trying to show you it has no scripture Backing.

Your not even Trying to attempt to read what im saying. I can't even have a conversation with you because your not reading what I typed. How can we try to find truth in anything if you wont even look at my points? I have Answered Every point you have made, And backed it up with scripture.


Jesus is the Son of God you are right. HE IS NOT GOD he is his Son, the 1st of all creation. and I have given you proof with scripture backing. Please read my points and stop distorting what I have typed. Because I never Said that Jesus Wasn't God's son.

[Pass That Shit]

You can deny Jesus all you want, but don't kid yourself that you have scripture to back up you points. I just gave you scripture that the Son of God has no beginning of days but you say he was created. It's clear in the bible that he is "before all things". Do you know what all things mean? Before everything. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. When was the beginning of Jesus since you know? Jesus is the Word of God. He is Everlasting. He is Eternal. How can you deny that? Where is the scripture that says otherwise?

[Polymirize]

Jesus this, Jesus that. Yes, no. Man, you think a stoner forum on a topic as broad as god would have more interesting conversation. Why does this Jesus hasbeen dominate these discussions so much? Does no one read anymore?

[Ignatius]

Kogrith, instead of putting links to various scriptures why not just give a brief appraisal of your position here? That's what the forum is for, a discussion, not a place to post links saying what other people have said.

Mud Dauber, thanks for the spelling heads up.. ;)

It reminds me of my favourite ever joke which was in a magazine called Private Eye a few years back. Printed on the page was a cartoon of two red indians (can I say that?) hiding behind a rock. Riding up through the pass was a masked man in the company of what appears to be several hundred companions. One injun is saying to the other..

"uh oh, here comes the highly gregarious ranger"

Well it made ME laugh anyways.

Peace

[Mud Dauber]

Kogrith, instead of putting links to various scriptures why not just give a brief appraisal of your position here? That's what the forum is for, a discussion, not a place to post links saying what other people have said.

Mud Dauber, thanks for the spelling heads up.. ;)

It reminds me of my favourite ever joke which was in a magazine called Private Eye a few years back. Printed on the page was a cartoon of two red indians (can I say that?) hiding behind a rock. Riding up through the pass was a masked man in the company of what appears to be several hundred companions. One injun is saying to the other..

"uh oh, here comes the highly gregarious ranger"

Well it made ME laugh anyways.

Peace
I'm a little pedantic, I'm afraid. :(

That's a funny cartoon. Sometimes I feel like a gregarious ranger, myself. :D I know people usually say "uh oh" when they see me coming, anyway.

Krogith, may I give you a small piece of advice ? There's a saying where I come from (here we go again), and it goes like this: "You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar."


And Polymirize, you've got a lot to learn. :(

[MastaChronic]

and you kill more flies with a swatter! :thumbsup:

[Polymirize]

And Polymirize, you've got a lot to learn. :(

We all do. At least I'm not fooling myself about that...

[justinsane]

Argument supporting god...?

no argument here, i know whats beyond the scientist's microscopes, and skeptic's pessimistic theories.

relax, live life, and believe.

[harris7]

Jesus this, Jesus that. Yes, no. Man, you think a stoner forum on a topic as broad as god would have more interesting conversation. Why does this Jesus hasbeen dominate these discussions so much? Does no one read anymore?

I agree.

I just found this great, century old, discussionâ??s representation on our forums and I also am somewhat disappointed.
I see too much emphasis on specifics, on Jesus and quotes from the Bible. Personally I am very interested in this topic and would like to have a good old fashion philosophical discussion about it. Topics like â??the problem of Evilâ?� and the similar. I propose starting a new thread were we start back at square one. If you would like to join me please click the link below. I have stated a very simple non-believer argument.

Enjoy

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?p=1024927#post1024927

[Nylo]

The ignorance found within Christianity scares me.

Religion is a lot like college. If you're not into it man, why go? Why lie to yourself? If your main goal is to go just to make more money than I can't say I envy that person's life. You have to want it if you want to get the most out of it. You have to believe in it.

You sound quick to irritation that people can be so asssertive about something they can't prove; especially when they try to sway your opinion based off of it. Why not live and let live? Who cares what they believe? You obviously don't believe in it, right?

That's your right; you have free-will. use it. But it's not the job of Christian's to guide you to God. Only you can do that. Anyone that says otherwise is a fool, a salesman, or both.