Slavery Reparations

[sanguinekane]

Whats your opinion here? I ask his simply because I saw this http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-35/1152468561277940.xml&storylist=newsmichigan pop up on Fark.

Personally, I'm against them in just about every form. Why should we pay for something our ancestors did, something we had no control over. In fact, I shouldn't even say "we", as I'm the child of immigrants, and so I'd be paying for someone else's ancestors fuck ups. Not to mention that working out who gets what would probably end up costing 3X the amount that will actually get paid out to people.

Look, slavery is immoral, evil and just plain wrong, there is no denying it. It was a tragedy that an entire race of people were forcibly taken from their homes to be enslaved, tortured, and murdered. But that was 150 years ago, it's time to move on. Yes, the situation that many minorities (hell, all minorities) in this country face is grim at best, and we need to figure out ways to solve that issue. But forcing people to pay for something their ancestors may or may not have done is ludicrous. If a descendent of a slave can demand reparations from the US gov't (which, as we already know, is in dire shape as it is), then I should be able to file claims against the English, Norwegian and Italian govt's for what their ancestors may (or more likely, may not) have done to the ancient celts. And that's just half my ancestery, I'm sure I could dig up alot more "claims" where I not lazy.

Sorry, this has gotten kind of long and rantish, so I'll end here and let somebody get a word in edgewise. :rasta:

[Captain Hanks]

agreed

[birdgirl73]

I'm sorry slavery every happened, but I agree that it's part of our history and not something we should have to make reparations for. It'd be tricky to try and make reparations anyway. Lots of people don't know that there were plenty of black slave-owners, too, particularly in New Orleans and the surrounding areas of south Louisiana. And then there's the very complicated fact that a very impressive majority of us, especially those of us who come from the American deep South, have some percentage of African ancestry. As more and more people undergo DNA ancestry testing, this is becoming increasingly clear. So those two factors alone make reparations impossibly complicated to try and address.

We need to let history guide us in how not to behave in the future. And perhaps turn our attention to areas of the world where slavery still exists and work on changing that.

[Breukelen advocaat]

They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America (Paperback)
by Michael A. Hoffman

I have this book, which details the history of White slavery - and some were taken by blacks in the Caribbean. It also describes indentured servitude, and the story of European people, often kidnapped, who worked alongside the Black slaves, frequently worked to death because the owner didnâ??t care about somebody that he would eventually have to release. know that some of my ancestors came over as indentured servents, including one on the Mayflower, and later ships as well.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0929903056/104-7267696-6805515?v=glance&n=283155

Here is a review on Amazon:

While I had heard of the terms redneck or redleg, little did I know that these terms originated from insults hurled by African Slaves unto White Slaves on plantations in the new world. This is the type of information that author Hoffman transmits to the reader in this book!

The thrust of this book is shocking and apparantly unassailable. Namely that the vast majority of slaves in the New World to perhaps the 1830/1840's period were poor whites enslaved by creditors, by welfare 'agencies' or perhaps kidnapped off the streets of England, Ireland, and Scotland for slave labor picking tobacco in the New World.

Constant acts of cruelty and inhumanity are chronicled. Everything from entire English and Irish families being sold to different slavemasters piecemeal in different states. Husbands and wives, one sold to work in New York, one sold to work in Georgia, never to see each other again. Children used by the modern Victorians to clean putrid chimneys so reducing their health that the vast bulk of the merry Chimney Sweeps we see caricatured in Merry Poppins never made their 16th Birthday in real life conditions, and startlingly, the abolitionsits who advocated so hard to an end to African Slavery, in the same breath and in the same day did nothing to free their own 'white slaves' and worked and beat many to death while advocating the freeing of African slaves.

What does this book boil down in the final analysis. It will assure that you will scoff at those asking for slavery reparations, that furthermore, the vast bulk of our population with roots in North American going back before 1850 are the descendants of slaves, that indentured service was really a racket that even Benjamin Franklin had to escape from it as a boy. Nothing could be more perfect to sum up this book than the quote from Shakespeare at the start of 'They Were White and They Were Slaves' which was "NOW STEP I FORTH TO WHIP HYPOCRASY".

Hoffman's little book is an important piece of history, and will forever alter your perspective on current 'reparations' demands, the lawsuits upon companies that used to insure slaves, etc.

[jamstigator]

I can see providing reparations to anyone who actually was a slave, but not their ancestors. The ancestors of the oppressors shouldn't pay the ancestors of the oppressed, because then the payer is someone who did nothing wrong, and the payee is someone who had nothing wrong done to them. It's just too abstract and distant if neither the payer or the payee actually had anything to do with it.

[graymatter]

Saying payment for past crimes is ludicrous, or it's time to move on, or the present generation was neither victim or criminal is part of the problem with the great American psyche. We've never once been held accountable for our wanton destruction of native land and culture, or our global expansion at the behest of commercial interest. The doctrines and policies of the U.S. were built on the arrogant and bigoted notions of destiny, and cultural, if not racial, superiority.

The question is more symbolic (actaully more timeless) than practical. If you dismiss the question as unfair, untimely or irrelevant, then I humbly suggest you're missing the point.

[birdgirl73]

What do you suggest we do, Gray, to be accountable for something, in the case of slavery, modern Americans weren't themselves responsible for? I agree that our doctrines and policies were no doubt built on all sorts of arrogant and bigoted notions. And certainly history has proven us to be wanton destroyers of native lands and culture. We're clearly wanton destroyers of Iraqi lands and culture right now.

But I'm curious what you'd have us do in this particular case. I'm not sure we can assuage our collective guilt (I'm being facetious here because most folks probably don't feel much, if any, collective guilt, which is part of your point.) for these other matters by making reparations for this matter of slavery.

[Bong30]

Reperations? are you kidding me. NO.

What about this?

The Modern
West African Slave Trade



Recently, we have seen the revival of the once thriving slave trade routes across West Africa, after a lapse of 25 years. Slavers have reappeared following the old slave trade routes, except that trucks, jeeps and modern four-wheel drive vehicles and, on occasions, aircraft, have replaced the camels. The slavers often carry mobile telephones.

Some things, however, have not changed. Cunning, deceit, the use of drugs to subdue the children and the whip still remain part of the essential equipment of the professional slaver.

The trade involves most states in sub-Saharan West Africa.

The children are kidnapped or purchased for $20 - $70 each by slavers in poorer states, such as Benin and Togo, and sold into slavery in sex dens or as unpaid domestic servants for $350.00 each in wealthier oil-rich states, such as Nigeria and Gabon.

These children are bought and sold as slaves. They are denied an education, the chance to play or to use toys like other children, and the right to a future. Their lives are at the mercy of their masters, and suicide is often the only escape.

The material in this report is based on a Mission to West Africa by the Society's Secretary-General, supplemented by material from Cleophas Mally of WAO-Afrique.



THE SOCIETY IN ACTION

The Society, in discharging its historic role, is currently working for the suppression of the slave trade in West Africa and the rescue of slave children.



It is still going on.....sucks now, sucks then, but we shouldnt pay them.

[graymatter]

But I'm curious what you'd have us do in this particular case. I'm not sure we can assuage our collective guilt (I'm being facetious here because most folks probably don't feel much, if any, collective guilt, which is part of your point.) for these other matters by making reparations for this matter of slavery.

Hey, birdgirl, good to see you again!

I think the question of accountability is the important point. It puts teeth against the strong tendency to chalk something up as history. I think Germany continues to hold itself accountable for the atrocities of WWII for that very reason; and we don't need to look any further than the last 15 years of history to see that humans are capable of repeating such horrors.

One of the problems with African American slavery is there's still fierce debate as to what ended it and why. I think the question of reparations is more important than the outcome (i.e., who's right in the merit or worth of the discussion). Because as it stands today, the only thing we can say is, "Sorry, we really fucked up. But hey, this is now and that was then."

How was the vacation?

[birdgirl73]

Hey, hon! It was good. We came home today, and frankly, I think a week would have been plenty. We were there almost two weeks, and it got almost boring after about 8 days.

How're you doing? I thought about you yesterday with the news of that poor woman driving through the tunnel in Boston. Is that near you?

I notice the conspiracists pretty well monopolize this board now, which is troubling. Wonder what's up with IamaPatient? He hasn't been on in over two weeks. Maybe he did end up having that stroke I predicted.

[graymatter]

Yes, that horrible fate has been consuming the news... just watched a local poll and 71% of Bostonians will avoid driving through the big dig tunnels.

I'm enjoying my work but hoping to get more than a few days off between now and the end of the summer. Are you ready for the big lifestyle change? I really admire that leap of yours.

I'm viewing the conspiracist threads as entertainment at this point. I know, that's probably not the right approach. I'm afraid Iamapatient has given up on enlightening us... Peace, baby!

[birdgirl73]

Hope you do get some time off! You deserve it.

I am growing more and more nervous about the big change. Who in her right mind gives up a perfectly good job that pays an embarrassing amount of money to enter medical school at the age of 44? I suppose I do, but the more I think about it, the more frightened I get. At least where I am now, I know what I'm doing. I only have two and half more weeks of corporate America, and then that'll be it. Am I nuts?

Wish I could view the conspiracists as entertaining. I just view them as needing the care of a good psychiatrist. No sane person can engage them in conversation because they have one-track minds and clearly don't have any other thoughts than those regarding the trend toward global tyranny they see as such a problem. Even the thoughts regarding that problem are largely other people's ideas cut and pasted here. Frankly, the conspiracists themselves seem to be far worse tyrannists than anyone else. Wish they'd move to another country or get banned.

Well, maybe if IamaP finally got sick of us and gave up these boards in frustration, he'll go off and generate some original thoughts of his own rather than parroting Bill O'Reilly all the time. I'm frankly relieved at not having to endure his anger all the time.

Peace to you, too, baby! I'm going to go kiss on my dogs and cats for a while. I missed them like crazy! Talk to you soon.

[Bong30]

Am I nuts?

I have allways said Liberalism is a mental Disorder...........:D

Wish I could view the conspiracists as entertaining. I just view them as needing the care of a good psychiatrist. No sane person can engage them in conversation because they have one-track minds and clearly don't have any other thoughts than those regarding the trend toward global tyranny they see as such a problem. Even the thoughts regarding that problem are largely other people's ideas cut and pasted here. Frankly, the conspiracists themselves seem to be far worse tyrannists than anyone else. Wish they'd move to another country or get banned.

Said perfectly..............Thank you.

I'm frankly relieved at not having to endure his anger all the time.
Come on BG you still have me........

:thumbsup:

[Shelbay]

Well if they get some more money out of this then I think NATIVE Americans should get more than beads this go round.

[graymatter]

Well if they get some more money out of this then I think NATIVE Americans should get more than beads then go round.

Indeed! First and foremost... :thumbsup:

[Bong30]

Well if they get some more money out of this then I think NATIVE Americans should get more than beads this go round.
Hey My grandpa was a full blooded Indian........ Never met him. He died when my mom was 12.

[SpiritLevel]

sanguinekane it's almost like you are saying Too bad Ni66er.

There is nothing reasonable that can be offered to ME as reparations. There is no appology great enough, there is no amount of gold heavy enough, there is no diamond flawless enough, there is no McNasty's burger nutritious enough, there isn't nothing material that can be offered unto the I that can account for over 500 years where a people have been kept under perpetual bondage to this very day.

Ones and ones can say all they like about how they don't wanna be held accountable for what their forebearers did when they enslaved, tortured, murdered, raped, robbed and did and did not do's. But all the so called work that has put particular categories of people into a stead fast position for the foreseable future has already been done. The work of people like Willie Lynch by use of the Christian dictrine has been assimilated long time ago and has left people in the diaspora psycologically traumatised with no Real knowledge of who they are and where they are from.

We Africans in the diaspora were kidnapped by psychos, travelled with the psycho, lived with the psycho, worked for the psycho, got raped by the psycho, ent up with little psycho children (kids*) amid other things until we assimilated the psychopathic tendencies of MASSA.

Six generations of your family being stripped of almost everything they knew and of the things that they held close to their heart doesn't deserve reparations. It's bigger than money and land. Its as big as Moses Law 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'.

When one is living in the diaspora under new rules and livity and their cultural ties have been severed, you can't offer that person a speed boat and say "ok, you built up my system now you can go home". Where is home? When all that is exists in the diaspora is there to divert people's attention from TRUTH how do you make concious decissions and what are those decission based on?

No one isn't bothered these days. The category of persons who have benefitted greatly from 'slavery', why are they/you going to be bothered when everything for you/them is running the best it ever has. The secret is best kept.

I got photos of what Queen Alexandrina Victoria of Englands Uncle King Leopold did to the Congolese in the 1800s. Fortunately not all evidence is under lock and key and Kodak was trying out his cameras around this time. He (leopold) personally saw to it that Millions of Jet Black Congolese were killed or mutilated just for his own sick gains. When you go to Belgium and look at the buildings from that era, you can see how a category of people viewed life, African life. You can see how those lives were spent. There is no trace of the real story because it's been Black Out with White Wash.

Belguim isn't the only beneficiary. Many countries, seen today as the developed world, have sourced everything to make the wheels of the system turn out of Africa and places that have been inhabitied by Black people period. There is no thanks, or offering that can make me feel good about why Ghana, Gambia, Nigeria, Senegal or any of those places are still not MY home. Anyone that says go back there, I got this to say. I've been there. After the destruction, that has had a dramatically cataclysmic effect, you think things are goin to be normal or back how they were?

There is only one of two answers in my view and they are extreme. The reversal of slavery would be the magic. But this will never happen. Reversing slavery, to me, means to undo exactly what was done by way of replay but with the shoes on the other foot. Some people call this giving .. a taste of their own medicine. There would be no real solution there since using the same tac-tics to get a nation to bow to submission means things start goin in circles that can sometimes get out of control. The other is for me to hand out knive and guns and enough evidence to make people commit suicide.

As an African, I don't feel a need to kill someone, but I welcome anyone who wants to cut their own throat on web cam or in front of me. I got more to do finding my spiritual self than thinking how best to spend £777trillion with the queen of englands mug shot on it. I'd be a DICK if i bowed to £777trillion as would any other ni66er.

Just to close: we all know that the statue of liberty represents freedom. Well, it isn't exactly on US Soil. Its Offshore. The statue might represent freedom, but it's out at sea. If i want to be free as an American, I gotta leave.

[SpiritLevel]

A 1,000,000 dollar bill has Liberty on it. That is freedom for ur wallet if you get one

[Fengzi]

I agree with Sanguinekane. Paying reparations for something our ancesters did is ridiculous. Graymatter points out that Germany holds itself accountable for the horrrs of WWII. That was 60 years ago and many of those atrocities were commited by people who may still be alive. Slavery in the U.S, however, was 150-200+ years ago and I can imagine that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone alive that ever even met a slave owner, let alone owned slaves.

Assuming it was decided that reparations were due, who pays and who receives? 50% of my family came from Hungary in the 1930's, do they need to pay? The other 50% were racist bigots (one of the many reasons why the last words my Mother ever said to her parents were "fuck you..) from the South. But, although their beliefs and feeling sicken me, they were dirt poor. I seriously doubt anyone in my family ever owned slaves. Should I still pay simply because my "whiteness" makes me guilty by association.

So, we say only large corporations, those that existed at the time and benefited from slavery, need to pay. But if they pay who really pays? Some fat cat who's great, great, great, great Grandfather owned slaves? No, he'll keep getting his fat salary. Most likley it will only be the stockholders, most of whom had no ancesters that could have possibly owned slaves, some of whom might just have ancestors that were slaves, that will wind up paying.

This may not be the most PC thing to say but the Black community needs to start looking to the future instead of whining about the past. What's done is done and can never be changed. If the Black community is going to improve its situation it needs to look inward. It needs to stop idolizing rappers and gangbangers and start looking up to Black doctors, engineers, and other professionals instead of calling them sell outs. We've come a long way in this country and nearly all of the barriers to people of non-caucaision ethnicity have been lifted. We can pay reparations, have affirmative action programs, etc. etc. but the bottom line is, even if we lead the black community to the plate, it's up to them to swing at the ball.

[birdgirl73]

Come on BG you still have me........

Gosh, Bong! What a sweet sentiment. I DO still have you. But heck, I don't want to endure your anger. I find you too funny for that! Seriously, you often crack me up. Keep doing that. I like it.

[sanguinekane]

sanguinekane it's almost like you are saying Too bad Ni66er.

There is nothing reasonable that can be offered to ME as reparations. There is no appology great enough, there is no amount of gold heavy enough, there is no diamond flawless enough, there is no McNasty's burger nutritious enough, there isn't nothing material that can be offered unto the I that can account for over 500 years where a people have been kept under perpetual bondage to this very day.

Ones and ones can say all they like about how they don't wanna be held accountable for what their forebearers did when they enslaved, tortured, murdered, raped, robbed and did and did not do's. But all the so called work that has put particular categories of people into a stead fast position for the foreseable future has already been done. The work of people like Willie Lynch by use of the Christian dictrine has been assimilated long time ago and has left people in the diaspora psycologically traumatised with no Real knowledge of who they are and where they are from.

We Africans in the diaspora were kidnapped by psychos, travelled with the psycho, lived with the psycho, worked for the psycho, got raped by the psycho, ent up with little psycho children (kids*) amid other things until we assimilated the psychopathic tendencies of MASSA.

Six generations of your family being stripped of almost everything they knew and of the things that they held close to their heart doesn't deserve reparations. It's bigger than money and land. Its as big as Moses Law 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'.

When one is living in the diaspora under new rules and livity and their cultural ties have been severed, you can't offer that person a speed boat and say "ok, you built up my system now you can go home". Where is home? When all that is exists in the diaspora is there to divert people's attention from TRUTH how do you make concious decissions and what are those decission based on?

No one isn't bothered these days. The category of persons who have benefitted greatly from 'slavery', why are they/you going to be bothered when everything for you/them is running the best it ever has. The secret is best kept.

I got photos of what Queen Alexandrina Victoria of Englands Uncle King Leopold did to the Congolese in the 1800s. Fortunately not all evidence is under lock and key and Kodak was trying out his cameras around this time. He (leopold) personally saw to it that Millions of Jet Black Congolese were killed or mutilated just for his own sick gains. When you go to Belgium and look at the buildings from that era, you can see how a category of people viewed life, African life. You can see how those lives were spent. There is no trace of the real story because it's been Black Out with White Wash.

Belguim isn't the only beneficiary. Many countries, seen today as the developed world, have sourced everything to make the wheels of the system turn out of Africa and places that have been inhabitied by Black people period. There is no thanks, or offering that can make me feel good about why Ghana, Gambia, Nigeria, Senegal or any of those places are still not MY home. Anyone that says go back there, I got this to say. I've been there. After the destruction, that has had a dramatically cataclysmic effect, you think things are goin to be normal or back how they were?

There is only one of two answers in my view and they are extreme. The reversal of slavery would be the magic. But this will never happen. Reversing slavery, to me, means to undo exactly what was done by way of replay but with the shoes on the other foot. Some people call this giving .. a taste of their own medicine. There would be no real solution there since using the same tac-tics to get a nation to bow to submission means things start goin in circles that can sometimes get out of control. The other is for me to hand out knive and guns and enough evidence to make people commit suicide.

As an African, I don't feel a need to kill someone, but I welcome anyone who wants to cut their own throat on web cam or in front of me. I got more to do finding my spiritual self than thinking how best to spend £777trillion with the queen of englands mug shot on it. I'd be a DICK if i bowed to £777trillion as would any other ni66er.

Just to close: we all know that the statue of liberty represents freedom. Well, it isn't exactly on US Soil. Its Offshore. The statue might represent freedom, but it's out at sea. If i want to be free as an American, I gotta leave.


So, if I understand this correctly, your idea of reparations would be having white people commit suicide? Excuse me if I don't jump on this bandwagon, but that idea seems about 1,000X worse than reparations.

[jamstigator]

Lol, yeah, that's extreme. Turning back time and having the white folks play the role of slaves is also extreme. Isn't that just saying: slavery isn't bad, it's only bad if you do it to ME. Sorry, I don't buy that. It's either bad or it's not, and I think it is bad, regardless of the ethnicity (or sex, or sexual preference, or blood type, or IQ, or anything else) of the slaves.

The people who were slaves, they're dead. The people who owned slaves, they're dead. In all probability, there are few, if any, of either population's children alive now either. The pre-Civil War era is effectively just about as old news as the days of the Roman Empire. And hey, since I'm German in descent, and the Romans kicked our German asses off and on for a few centuries (a whole lot longer than blacks got their asses kicked in the U.S.), can *I* have some reparations from Italy?

Yoohoo! These cows are dead! You can stop trying to milk them now!

[Psycho4Bud]

Give each person of a non-white race $1,000,000 and lets see what happens:

African American: pop. 35,000,000
Native American: pop 2,500,000
Asian American pop: 10,000,000
Native Hawian pop: 500,000

Now that is 48,000,000 people or a tab of $48,000,000,000,000! What do ya think the value of that dollar is going to be when our government is belly up?

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[BlueBear]

Saying payment for past crimes is ludicrous, or it's time to move on, or the present generation was neither victim or criminal is part of the problem with

the great American psyche. We've never once been held accountable for our wanton destruction of native land and culture, or our global expansion at the

behest of commercial interest. The doctrines and policies of the U.S. were built on the arrogant and bigoted notions of destiny, and cultural, if not racial,

superiority.

The question is more symbolic (actually more timeless) than practical. If you dismiss the question as unfair, untimely or irrelevant, then I humbly suggest

you're missing the point.

Missing the point? What exactly is

the point? Why should there be reparation made? The answer? It is a two edge sword. What race exactly on the face of this earth hasn't been enslaved? which portion of minority Americans are entitled to reparation? The question seems a little ludicrous to me, but then again I am not into feeding half of the pointless topics that I come across on a daily basis.

At this point, how many other lands and cultures is the US supposed to repay for cruel and manipulative treatment? In how many ways has our western culture enslaved the mines and lives of millions only to help their culture to evolve into a superficial, immoral and materialistic people? How long will those affects have on those cultures? Who is to pay? The African American was cruely treated for 2 centuries with even longer lasting affects, and many more cultures have been under the same conditions for many more centuries. Even in Africa to this day Africans war against one another in the most barbaric ways. Would I wish to be there and call that my home land? Would you?

Well as I rant and rave, I looked back to a book that has an excerpt of the history of man and as I read it I wonder how big a part of history this question even plays in the so called Great American psyche. Rather to me there is a greater psyche of man past and present that pervades any time, nation or class and to blame one nation or one government for the nature of mans follies, accomplishments, greed and misguidance throughout history is truly ludicrous in my "humble" opinion.

Here is the excerpt that I referred to on the history of man, kind of long winded so if your not particularly into this topic just skip over. When reading, ask your self, did I understand that the scope of the evolution of man, laws and cultures was so vast? Could I have sketched a better plan considering the length, depth and breadth of mans evolution? Many more questions you could ask yourself, but I am just an observer and hope that others can turn the wheels of observation and analytical and abstract deduction in a logical manor arriving at a simple answer which is, history and man are to big to place in a box and send to the repair store and fix it with any one tool.

"History of Human Error." It is , therefore, the moral history of mankind, told with
earnestness, . In all true humor lies its germ, pathos. Oh! by the
goddess Moria, or Folly. He viewed man
first in the savage state, preferring in this the positive accounts of
voyagers and travellers to the vague myths of antiquity and the dreams of
speculators on our pristine state. From Australia and Abyssinia he drew
pictures of mortality unadorned, as lively as if he had lived amongst
Bushmen and savages all his life. Then he crossed over the Atlantic, and
brought before you the American Indian, with his noble nature, struggling
into the dawn of civilization, when Friend Penn cheated him out of his
birthright, and the Anglo-Saxon drove him back into darkness. He showed
both analogy and contrast between this specimen of our kind and others
equally apart from the extremes of the savage state and the
cultured,--the Arab in his tent, the Teuton in his forests, the
Greenlander in his boat, the Finn in his reindeer car. Up sprang the rude
gods of the North and the resuscitated Druidism, passing from its
earliest templeless belief into the later corruptions of crommell and
idol. Up sprang, by their side, the Saturn of the Phoenicians, the mystic
Budh of India, the elementary deities of the Pelasgian, the Naith and
Serapis of Egypt, the Ormuzd of Persia, the Bel of Babylon, the winged
genii of the graceful Etruria. How nature and life shaped the religion;
how the religion shaped the manners; how, and by what influences, some
tribes were formed for progress; how others were destined to remain
stationary, or be swallowed up in war and slavery by their brethren,--was
told with a precision clear and strong as the voice of Fate. Not only an
antiquarian and philologist, but an anatomist and philosopher, my father
brought to bear on all these grave points the various speculations
involved in the distinction of races. He showed how race in perfection is
produced, up to a certain point, by admixture; how all mixed races have
been the most intelligent; how, in proportion as local circumstance and
religious faith permitted the early fusion of different tribes, races
improved and quickened into the refinements of civilization. He tracked
the progress and dispersion of the Hellenes from their mythical cradle in
Thessaly, and showed how those who settled near the sea-shores, and were
compelled into commerce and intercourse with strangers, gave to Greece
her marvellous accomplishments in arts and letters,--the flowers of the
ancient world. How others, like the Spartans; dwelling evermore in a
camp, on guard against their neighbors, and rigidly preserving their
Dorian purity of extraction, contributed neither artists, nor poets, nor
philosophers to the golden treasure-house of mind. He took the old race
of the Celts, Cimry, or Cimmerians. He compared the Celt who, as in
Wales, the Scotch Highlands, in Bretagne, and in uncomprehended Ireland,
retains his old characteristics and purity of breed, with the Celt whose
blood, mixed by a thousand channels, dictates from Paris the manners and
revolutions of the world. He compared the Norman, in his ancient
Scandinavian home, with that wonder of intelligence and chivalry into
which he grew, fused imperceptibly with the Frank, the Goth, and the
Anglo-Saxon. He compared the Saxon, stationary in the land of Horsa, with
the colonist and civilizes of the globe as he becomes when he knows not
through what channels--French, Flemish, Danish, Welsh, Scotch, and
Irish--he draws his sanguine blood. And out from all these speculations,
to which I do such hurried and scanty justice, he drew the blessed truth,
that carries hope to the land of the Caffre, the but of the
Bushman,--that there is nothing in the flattened skull and the ebon
aspect that rejects God's law, improvement; that by the same principle
which raises the dog, the lowest of the animals in its savage state, to
the highest after man--viz., admixture of race--you can elevate into
nations of majesty and power the outcasts of humanity, now your
compassion or your scorn. But when my father got into the marrow of his
theme; when, quitting these preliminary discussions, he fell pounce
amongst the would-be wisdom of the wise; when he dealt with civilization
itself, its schools, and porticos, and academies; when he bared the
absurdities couched beneath the colleges of the Egyptians and the
Symposia of the Greeks; when he showed that, even in their own favorite
pursuit of metaphysics, the Greeks were children, and in their own more
practical region of politics, the Romans were visionaries and bunglers;
when, following the stream of error through the Middle Ages, he quoted
the puerilities of Agrippa, the crudities of Cardan, and passed, with his
calin smile, into the salons of the chattering wits of Paris in the
eighteenth century,--oh! then his irony was that of Lucian, sweetened by
the gentle spirit of Erasmus. For not even here was my father's satire of
the cheerless and Mephistophelian school. From this record of error he
drew forth the grandeurs of truth. He showed how earnest men never think
in vain, though their thoughts may be errors. He proved how, in vast
cycles, age after age, the human mind marches on, like the ocean,
receding here, but there advancing; how from the speculations of the
Greek sprang all true philosophy; how from the institutions of the Roman
rose all durable systems of government; how from the robust follies of
the North came the glory of chivalry, and the modern delicacies of honor,
and the sweet, harmonizing influences of woman. He tracked the ancestry
of our Sidneys and Bayards from the Hengists, Genserics, and Attilas.
Full of all curious and quaint anecdote, of original illustration, of
those niceties of learning which spring from a taste cultivated to the
last exquisite polish, the book amused and allured and charmed; and
erudition lost its pedantry, now in the simplicity of Montaigne, now in
the penetration of La Bruyere. He lived in each time of which he wrote,
and the time lived again in him. Ah! what a writer of romances he would
have been if--if what? If he had had as sad an experience of men's
passions as he had the happy intuition into their humors. But he who
would see the mirror of the shore must look where it is cast on the
river, not the ocean. The narrow stream reflects the gnarled tree and the
pausing herd and the village spire and the romance of the landscape. But
the sea reflects only the vast outline of the headland and the lights of
the eternal heaven."

[graymatter]

Missing the point? What exactly is

the point? Why should there be reparation made? The answer? It is a two edge sword. What race exactly on the face of this earth hasn't been enslaved? which portion of minority Americans are entitled to reparation? The question seems a little ludicrous to me, but then again I am not into feeding half of the pointless topics that I come across on a daily basis.

At this point, how many other lands and cultures is the US supposed to repay for cruel and manipulative treatment?

Hey, bluebear, first off, I'll go out on a limb and say that none of your relatives or distant ancestors were slaves. Nor were they hapless subjects of U.S. led coups and overthrows in Cuba, Panama (aka Columbia), Nicuragua, Honduras, Iran, Guatemala, and Chile.

OK, so neither were mine.

My point wasn't so much an indictment on human nature as much as "taking to task" the specific bondage, savagery and indignities imposed on an entire race of people. The consequences of never being held accountable for such practices result in attitudes and behaviors that trickle into our policies in Iraq today.

You ask what portion of minorities are "entitled"? Hell if I know, I'll leave the details to you and the lawyers...;) But I do think reducing the question to who gets what before contextually addressing the "why" is, again, part of what feeds the issue.

[SpiritLevel]

One of my great uncles was a slave according to my dad. That means slavery, to me, is on my back door.

[bhallg2k]

I have allways said Liberalism is a mental Disorder...........

Funny you mention that.

Researchers have actually said that conservatism is a mental disorder.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1017546,00.html

[SpiritLevel]

does that mean liberalism and conservatism are both mental disorders?

[The Figment]

Not to sound racist but...
After reading this thred I asked some of the folk at work what they would spend the cash on if they got paid for reparations, here's what I got fer answers

A new Caddy with 20's
A wide screen TV
A Bigger House (This Person already has a 4000 sq ft home)
New clothes
Mo'Drugs (Really!)
A Lexas 450 SUV

Not one person said Collage fund for the kids,Retirement,savings or anything that wasn't instant gratification!!

After careful thought I guess that I don't want my tax monies spent that way!

[graymatter]

Not to sound racist but...
After reading this thred I asked some of the folk at work what they would spend the cash on if they got paid for reparations, here's what I got fer answers

A new Caddy with 20's
A wide screen TV
A Bigger House (This Person already has a 4000 sq ft home)
New clothes
Mo'Drugs (Really!)
A Lexas 450 SUV

Not one person said Collage fund for the kids,Retirement,savings or anything that wasn't instant gratification!!

After careful thought I guess that I don't want my tax monies spent that way!

LOL ... and your sample consisted of?

[Maggz]

Funny how you guys keep saying "its the past, its the past"..when the PAST is the cause for the poverty that many African Americans are experiencing today. It was THEIR ancestors who leveled the land in America, the east would be all forest if it wasn't for their labor. They were beaten, starved, abused, neglected, and forced to work until they basically collapsed of heat exaustion, or getting beaten to death. Such brutallity can't be ignored, doesnt matter if your ancestors were the ones who did that shit..it was THEIR ancestors who suffered it. They were FORECEFULLY brought to this country and FORECEFULLY put to work with NO pay , they were treated like animals if not worse. And now we're going to ignore it? Now we have the "THEY'RE HERE SO THEY'RE HERE" attitude..when it was THEM who had to live in the ghettos because of discrimination and being ostricized over the years..and we're going to just ignore it? Just because it was the PAST? They deserve reperations without a question.

[jamstigator]

Who deserves reparations without a question? Oh, you mean the dead guys who were mistreated? Well, whether they deserve it or not, they're a little too horizontal to SPEND it, sooo...I think there are better uses for taxpayer money than throwing truckloads of hundred dollar bills on some graves.

Children are starving, education is in decline, the space program is doing poorly, soldiers and their families must be taken care of, a new highway system is needed, we need funding for Social Security, and so on. I'm sure throwing piles of money on the graves of the abused is on the list somewhere, but hey, it's gonna take a while to work our way down the list to the extent that we're ready to start giving dead people money. But have faith. I'm sure we'll get there eventually.

How about a compromise? If the dead people get up and start moaning "brains... brains...", then we'll give 'em some brains! I'm sure they'd appreciate that more than money anyhow, being zombies and all.

[SpiritLevel]

What a man believes, upon grossly insufficient evidence, is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious of.

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Funny how you guys keep saying "its the past, its the past"..when the PAST is the cause for the poverty that many African Americans are experiencing today. It was THEIR ancestors who leveled the land in America, the east would be all forest if it wasn't for their labor.
My ancestors cleared their own land, without any help - in New England, and upstate New York, during the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. This is a fact (I have proof), and they didn't own slaves.

They were beaten, starved, abused, neglected, and forced to work until they basically collapsed of heat exaustion, or getting beaten to death.
Slave owners were more likely to do this to white indentured servants - because after the period of slavery, they would be let free. The black slaves were treated better, because they were (usually) held for life. Does it make sense to destroy a valuable asset? It probably happened, but not as frequently as books like "Roots" would have you believe.

Such brutallity can't be ignored, doesnt matter if your ancestors were the ones who did that shit..it was THEIR ancestors who suffered it. They were FORECEFULLY brought to this country and FORECEFULLY put to work with NO pay , they were treated like animals if not worse.
The slaves' own people sold them into slavery - shouldn't they be held responsible as well?

And now we're going to ignore it? Now we have the "THEY'RE HERE SO THEY'RE HERE" attitude..when it was THEM who had to live in the ghettos because of discrimination and being ostricized over the years..and we're going to just ignore it? Just because it was the PAST? They deserve reperations without a question.
It was not "THEM", as in people that are alive today -- it was some of their ancestors.

What about people of mixed races? What do you propose we do for them, make them pay reparations to themselves?

[SpiritLevel]

Why are most people taking a 2 dimensional view on the issue? Are there no 3 dimensional thinkers amongst us?

[sanguinekane]

Funny how you guys keep saying "its the past, its the past"..when the PAST is the cause for the poverty that many African Americans are experiencing today. It was THEIR ancestors who leveled the land in America, the east would be all forest if it wasn't for their labor. They were beaten, starved, abused, neglected, and forced to work until they basically collapsed of heat exaustion, or getting beaten to death. Such brutallity can't be ignored, doesnt matter if your ancestors were the ones who did that shit..it was THEIR ancestors who suffered it.

Not quite sure where you got the idea that we're saying we should ignore slavery, I'm sure I've never said that, nor have I seen people say it in this thread. But the thing is, it does matter if my ancestors didn't do it. I ask again, why should I pay for someone else's ancestors?

I'm not saying that we should just abandon social programs, or that it's all good for black people in the US. Believe you me, I grew up in Oakland, I've seen what people of all ethnicities have to suffer through every day. All I'm saying is that reparations aren't the solution. They'd just to cause further discontent, and we'd still have prejudice and racism. Throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it. Instead, investing more in our urban areas, investing more in transportation networks, schools, hospitals, universities, urban renewal, and violence-prevention programs, we'd be doing infinitely more good than just handing out $1,000* in cash to every black person in the country.

*$1,000 just an example, I don't even think supporters of reparations know how much they'd want.

[DonnieDarko]

Decendants of slaves have already gotten reparations: It's called Affirmative Action and it's a pretty sweet deal.

Decendants of native american indians have gotten their reparations: Casinos.

There is one group victimized longer than any other .... WOMEN .... denied the right to vote ..... currently get paid 75 percent of equally skilled women, killed in Salem, solely responsible for original sin !!! I could go on .....

Women should be at the top of the list for reparations !!! End of argument.

[SpiritLevel]

...Women should be at the top of the list for reparations !!! End of argument.
start a thread

[zero2104]

no reparations for slavery, it like giving reperations for jews and irish for being persecuted

but reparations for native americans are fine with me because they owned this land, they were raped and killed on their land, and they were driven away from their homeland plus i am 1/6!!! :thumbsup:

[SpiritLevel]

Jews have had reparations.. havent they? wasn't the day off from 9/11 enough?
You are one selfish 1/6th.. If you are not full blooded (5/6ths or more) you shouldn't get noin. You still got same opinion?

[Breukelen advocaat]

Jews have had reparations.. havent they? wasn't the day off from 9/11 enough?

Please explain your comment, supported by statistics or facts, about Jews having "the day off" on 9/11.

[SpiritLevel]

I have no supporting eveidence!

[Shelbay]

Documented but overlooked & escaping generations of history books is the fact that the first "cargo" of 20 Africans to land in the future U.S.A. arrived at Jamestown,VA known to generations of American Schoolchildren as the first permanent English Settlement in America aboard a Dutch man-of-war in August of 1619.

These American captives had been taken off a Spanish Slave Ship en route to Spains colonies by a group of pirates who preyed on Spanish slave & treasure ships. Strange how the same books that hail the glorious consequences of the opening of the House of Burgesses in Jamestown neglects to mention this part of history.

And lets not forget the Europeans & Portugals part in Slavery..among many others.

We hear alot about the South being the evil in this practice but history is so distorted on this issue..just alot of lies & myths mixed in with a few truths.

Europe called The Africans-Black Ivory..Spain dominated the slave trade for a 100 years..then the Dutch for 50 years..then the English,who got the exclusive right to supply slaves to Spains colonies in 1713.

So if reparations are made..lets go ALL the way back to the truth of Slavery..and hold EVERYONE & EVERY Country involved responsible.

[birdgirl73]

Mornin', Shelbay! How're you doing? I was thinking about you yesterday and thinking I'd not seen you online in a while. I've missed seeing your posts.

Hope all is well with you!

[Shelbay]

Morning Birdgirl! Really Glad to see you this morning..I have been coming on reading yours & a few others post on here just not posting much. I just read a few of your post & you make me laugh sometimes!! Which is a good thing:) I am well now..hope all is well with you also.

I liked your quip about how its not going to be so hot today..LOL..I Love your zingers,thanks.:)

[birdgirl73]

Glad things are good with you. I've missed you.

That is kind of sad that a 93-degree day seems like a cool one, isn't it? Has it been miserably hot in Mobile, too?

[Shelbay]

I hope you know how much that means to me! Even on the internet! I missed you & a couple of others on here.

The Gulf really has been hot but not as bad as you & others are getting right now. I feel for the ones in St.Louis-that is dangerous right now? I am trying to catch up on the news..can you believe I just read last night about St.Louis?!

Its easier for me to just read a couple of your post & I catch up quick. How is your sister? I am steady reading on here but haven't seen you post about her? She is doing better? And when do you start your Medical School?

[birdgirl73]

Well, she seems like she's taken a bit of dive since we got back from Desitin. Or else maybe she's just depressed. She's acting funny. She'll hardly get out of bed, and she won't eat and barely drinks anything. She's talking a lot less. It worries me. She's got an appointment with a neurologist next week because there's a good possibility that the cancer may have spread to her brain. She was so upbeat and active for the two weeks we were in Florida. My husband says I was just lying to myself by thinking/hoping that would last. (Which makes me want to smack him.)

The first day of med school is Monday, August 14. I've got my school laptop all ready and set up, and we're going to go buy my books next weekend. There's an orientation for the first-year students on Friday the 12th. I think I'm ready, except of course I'm worried about being gone so much more from my sister. My last day of work at my current job is next Friday. I'm having lots of anxiety right now. I'm sure it's a combination of worrying about my sistser and facing all these changes.

[Shelbay]

I am so sorry,I don't know what else to say but I can tell you are mentally strong & just don't want to give up without a fight. I guess your husband being who he is he is just a realist? Even telling me the news about your sister you still made me smile when you said you wanted to smack your husband-bet you would do that:)

You sound like a little girl so excited about School..I don't know you but just from reading your post I would bet that you are going to be in the top 3 of your class..maybe #1;) You seem to be the type that excels at whatever you put your mind to...I wouldn't want to debate you. I can't imagine the anxiety I would have doing what all you are doing..I am not the best at multi-tasking..hence the slow posting-I am eating my mini-wheats & trying to punch these keys at the same time. Just remember to post after your first day at school so I can at least "feel" your excitement & try to keep up with you.

[slowthestone]

1. African slaves were purchased from African tribe leaders.

2. A substantial enough amount of slaves were purchased by Americans for sake of working plantations. They were treated well, provided for...and in every sense of the term...were employed. Food and shelter in trade for work.

3. A substantial enough amount of slave owners/holders did so for sake of a sense of empathy to see that at least those under their ownership were treated with dignity and respect.

4. How does one even begin to put a monetary value on such a thing?

5. Slavery is still alive and well on our world. Before even thinking of some far-fetched notion of reperations...someone ought to be doing more to stamp out current slavery. In ALL its many forms at that.

[birdgirl73]

Thanks for your message, Shelb. It makes such a huge difference having pals online to share this with. It really does.

I am excited about school, but heck, I don't know how good I'll be at it. I hope I won't fail miserably. It occurs to me now that I'm thinking about all the preparations that I probably need to go get some school clothes. I haven't even thought about that, and I have no idea what people wear to medical school these days.

Well, I definitely have wanted to smack him a few times over these years, but so far I never have. He's a lot bigger than I am! When he starts the blunt doctor-talk, I generally just cut my eyes over at him and say "Oh shuddup."

He's way more tolerant of letting his patients and their families maintain hope about desperate illness than he is in his own family. I need to point that out to him, but I already know what he'll say. "I just want you to have a realistic outlook." (Here's where the "Oh shuddup" will come in.)