Slavery Reparations

[sanguinekane]

Whats your opinion here? I ask his simply because I saw this http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/regio...t=newsmichigan pop up on Fark.

Personally, I'm against them in just about every form. Why should we pay for something our ancestors did, something we had no control over. In fact, I shouldn't even say "we", as I'm the child of immigrants, and so I'd be paying for someone else's ancestors fuck ups. Not to mention that working out who gets what would probably end up costing 3X the amount that will actually get paid out to people.

Look, slavery is immoral, evil and just plain wrong, there is no denying it. It was a tragedy that an entire race of people were forcibly taken from their homes to be enslaved, tortured, and murdered. But that was 150 years ago, it's time to move on. Yes, the situation that many minorities (hell, all minorities) in this country face is grim at best, and we need to figure out ways to solve that issue. But forcing people to pay for something their ancestors may or may not have done is ludicrous. If a descendent of a slave can demand reparations from the US gov't (which, as we already know, is in dire shape as it is), then I should be able to file claims against the English, Norwegian and Italian govt's for what their ancestors may (or more likely, may not) have done to the ancient celts. And that's just half my ancestery, I'm sure I could dig up alot more "claims" where I not lazy.

Sorry, this has gotten kind of long and rantish, so I'll end here and let somebody get a word in edgewise. :rasta:

sanguinekane Reviewed by sanguinekane on 07-12-2006. Slavery Reparations Whats your opinion here? I ask his simply because I saw this http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-35/1152468561277940.xml&storylist=newsmichigan pop up on Fark. Personally, I'm against them in just about every form. Why should we pay for something our ancestors did, something we had no control over. In fact, I shouldn't even say "we", as I'm the child of immigrants, and so I'd be paying for someone else's ancestors fuck ups. Not to mention that working out who gets Rating: 5

[Captain Hanks]

agreed

[birdgirl73]

I'm sorry slavery every happened, but I agree that it's part of our history and not something we should have to make reparations for. It'd be tricky to try and make reparations anyway. Lots of people don't know that there were plenty of black slave-owners, too, particularly in New Orleans and the surrounding areas of south Louisiana. And then there's the very complicated fact that a very impressive majority of us, especially those of us who come from the American deep South, have some percentage of African ancestry. As more and more people undergo DNA ancestry testing, this is becoming increasingly clear. So those two factors alone make reparations impossibly complicated to try and address.

We need to let history guide us in how not to behave in the future. And perhaps turn our attention to areas of the world where slavery still exists and work on changing that.

[Breukelen advocaat]

They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America (Paperback)
by Michael A. Hoffman

I have this book, which details the history of White slavery - and some were taken by blacks in the Caribbean. It also describes indentured servitude, and the story of European people, often kidnapped, who worked alongside the Black slaves, frequently worked to death because the owner didnâ??t care about somebody that he would eventually have to release. know that some of my ancestors came over as indentured servents, including one on the Mayflower, and later ships as well.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/092...lance&n=283155

Here is a review on Amazon:

While I had heard of the terms redneck or redleg, little did I know that these terms originated from insults hurled by African Slaves unto White Slaves on plantations in the new world. This is the type of information that author Hoffman transmits to the reader in this book!

The thrust of this book is shocking and apparantly unassailable. Namely that the vast majority of slaves in the New World to perhaps the 1830/1840's period were poor whites enslaved by creditors, by welfare 'agencies' or perhaps kidnapped off the streets of England, Ireland, and Scotland for slave labor picking tobacco in the New World.

Constant acts of cruelty and inhumanity are chronicled. Everything from entire English and Irish families being sold to different slavemasters piecemeal in different states. Husbands and wives, one sold to work in New York, one sold to work in Georgia, never to see each other again. Children used by the modern Victorians to clean putrid chimneys so reducing their health that the vast bulk of the merry Chimney Sweeps we see caricatured in Merry Poppins never made their 16th Birthday in real life conditions, and startlingly, the abolitionsits who advocated so hard to an end to African Slavery, in the same breath and in the same day did nothing to free their own 'white slaves' and worked and beat many to death while advocating the freeing of African slaves.

What does this book boil down in the final analysis. It will assure that you will scoff at those asking for slavery reparations, that furthermore, the vast bulk of our population with roots in North American going back before 1850 are the descendants of slaves, that indentured service was really a racket that even Benjamin Franklin had to escape from it as a boy. Nothing could be more perfect to sum up this book than the quote from Shakespeare at the start of 'They Were White and They Were Slaves' which was "NOW STEP I FORTH TO WHIP HYPOCRASY".

Hoffman's little book is an important piece of history, and will forever alter your perspective on current 'reparations' demands, the lawsuits upon companies that used to insure slaves, etc.

[jamstigator]

I can see providing reparations to anyone who actually was a slave, but not their ancestors. The ancestors of the oppressors shouldn't pay the ancestors of the oppressed, because then the payer is someone who did nothing wrong, and the payee is someone who had nothing wrong done to them. It's just too abstract and distant if neither the payer or the payee actually had anything to do with it.

[graymatter]

Saying payment for past crimes is ludicrous, or it's time to move on, or the present generation was neither victim or criminal is part of the problem with the great American psyche. We've never once been held accountable for our wanton destruction of native land and culture, or our global expansion at the behest of commercial interest. The doctrines and policies of the U.S. were built on the arrogant and bigoted notions of destiny, and cultural, if not racial, superiority.

The question is more symbolic (actaully more timeless) than practical. If you dismiss the question as unfair, untimely or irrelevant, then I humbly suggest you're missing the point.

[birdgirl73]

What do you suggest we do, Gray, to be accountable for something, in the case of slavery, modern Americans weren't themselves responsible for? I agree that our doctrines and policies were no doubt built on all sorts of arrogant and bigoted notions. And certainly history has proven us to be wanton destroyers of native lands and culture. We're clearly wanton destroyers of Iraqi lands and culture right now.

But I'm curious what you'd have us do in this particular case. I'm not sure we can assuage our collective guilt (I'm being facetious here because most folks probably don't feel much, if any, collective guilt, which is part of your point.) for these other matters by making reparations for this matter of slavery.

[Bong30]

Reperations? are you kidding me. NO.

What about this?

The Modern
West African Slave Trade



Recently, we have seen the revival of the once thriving slave trade routes across West Africa, after a lapse of 25 years. Slavers have reappeared following the old slave trade routes, except that trucks, jeeps and modern four-wheel drive vehicles and, on occasions, aircraft, have replaced the camels. The slavers often carry mobile telephones.

Some things, however, have not changed. Cunning, deceit, the use of drugs to subdue the children and the whip still remain part of the essential equipment of the professional slaver.

The trade involves most states in sub-Saharan West Africa.

The children are kidnapped or purchased for $20 - $70 each by slavers in poorer states, such as Benin and Togo, and sold into slavery in sex dens or as unpaid domestic servants for $350.00 each in wealthier oil-rich states, such as Nigeria and Gabon.

These children are bought and sold as slaves. They are denied an education, the chance to play or to use toys like other children, and the right to a future. Their lives are at the mercy of their masters, and suicide is often the only escape.

The material in this report is based on a Mission to West Africa by the Society's Secretary-General, supplemented by material from Cleophas Mally of WAO-Afrique.



THE SOCIETY IN ACTION

The Society, in discharging its historic role, is currently working for the suppression of the slave trade in West Africa and the rescue of slave children.



It is still going on.....sucks now, sucks then, but we shouldnt pay them.

[graymatter]

But I'm curious what you'd have us do in this particular case. I'm not sure we can assuage our collective guilt (I'm being facetious here because most folks probably don't feel much, if any, collective guilt, which is part of your point.) for these other matters by making reparations for this matter of slavery.

Hey, birdgirl, good to see you again!

I think the question of accountability is the important point. It puts teeth against the strong tendency to chalk something up as history. I think Germany continues to hold itself accountable for the atrocities of WWII for that very reason; and we don't need to look any further than the last 15 years of history to see that humans are capable of repeating such horrors.

One of the problems with African American slavery is there's still fierce debate as to what ended it and why. I think the question of reparations is more important than the outcome (i.e., who's right in the merit or worth of the discussion). Because as it stands today, the only thing we can say is, "Sorry, we really fucked up. But hey, this is now and that was then."

How was the vacation?

[birdgirl73]

Hey, hon! It was good. We came home today, and frankly, I think a week would have been plenty. We were there almost two weeks, and it got almost boring after about 8 days.

How're you doing? I thought about you yesterday with the news of that poor woman driving through the tunnel in Boston. Is that near you?

I notice the conspiracists pretty well monopolize this board now, which is troubling. Wonder what's up with IamaPatient? He hasn't been on in over two weeks. Maybe he did end up having that stroke I predicted.