us v them ....

[Gumby]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4943842.stm


Al-Qaeda jihad vs US 'long war'
Analysis
By Paul Reynolds
World Affairs Correspondent, BBC News website

Osama Bin Laden
Osama Bin Laden. The tactics of jihad...

Monday's bombings in Egypt fit in with the philosophy of war laid out in a 7,000 word document by Osama Bin Laden which appeared recently in the form of an audio tape.

And in turn, the tape came within weeks of the publication in February of the Pentagon's "Quadrennial Defence Review" which stated: "The United States is a nation engaged in what will be a long war."

We therefore now have two almost simultaneous documents from the leading forces in the war and they are worth comparing.

There will be those who say that any comparison is odious but no professional intelligence officer I know would allow emotion to obscure analysis and it is on that basis that I proceed.

The most striking thing about the Bin Laden statement is its wide ranging nature. One counterterrorism commentator, Walid Phares, of the Florida Atlantic University called it a "state of the jihad address".

The struggles

The al-Qaeda leader lists about 20 struggles worldwide. It is important to know what they are. Among his declarations:

* There can be no apology for the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, which he dwells on at length. Instead he says those "responsible" must be punished and he leaves no doubt as to what that should be

* The West is at war with "our nation", defined as Islam as a whole, which amounts to a "crusade"

* The West's hostility towards Hamas is evidence of this crusade
* The UN Security Council is a "crusader movement along with pagan Buddhism". The Buddhists are represented by China in his view

* Islamic fighters should resist any attempt by the West to cut Darfur off from the rest of Sudan. He rejects the settlement with the South

* Iraq is the central struggle. "The epicentre of these wars and attacks is Baghdad"

* The fight in Iraq is a "crusader-Zionist war against Muslims". So, too, are or were the conflicts in Bosnia, Chechnya, East Timor, Somalia and Kashmir

* He attacks France for banning the headscarf in school and the writer Salman Rushdie is still "the infidel"

* He calls for the death of "Bush's lackey in Pakistan", meaning President Pervez Musharraf

* King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia is responsible for "submissiveness and humiliation"

* The global war is not a clash of civilisations but an attack "by their civilisation against our civilisation"

* He condemns the use of Nato troops in Afghanistan

* The people in the West are as guilty as their leaders. "War is a common responsibility among people and government"

* No dialogue is now possible with the West as it rejected his own offer of a truce "after the withdrawal of their armies"

Thus, Osama Bin Laden's manifesto.

He does not incidentally mention Egypt but has no real need to since Egypt has always been a battlefield for al-Qaeda.

It is evident that Bin Laden has lost none of his determination in the years since 11 September 2001 ("the Manhattan conquest").

His manifesto is characterised by absolutism. Even the fight in Iraq is pitched in terms of protecting "monotheism", which is an implied rejection of the Iraqi majority, the Shias, according to Islamic scholars.

Whether his gathering in of just about every known conflict involving Muslims is a sign of his strength or a sign that he is trying to raise morale in sometimes weakened forces remains to be seen.

But his ambition remains undiminished.

The Pentagon approach

Against this, the Pentagon is preparing its own plans.

These were partly revealed in the four-yearly document it is required to produce looking ahead towards the next 20 years.

The new document gives it own definition of the struggle and it is also couched in global terms.

Donald Rumsfeld
...against the long war of Donald Rumsfeld

"Since the attacks of September 11, 2001, our nation has fought a global war against violent extremists who use terrorism as their weapon of choice and who seek to destroy our free way of life.

"Our enemies seek weapons of mass destruction and, if they are successful, will likely attempt to use them in their conflict with free people everywhere. Currently, the struggle is centred in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we will need to be prepared and arranged to successfully defend our nation and its interests around the globe for years to come."

In his usual blunt style, Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says in an introduction: "Now in the fifth year of this global war, the ideas and proposals in this document are provided as a road map for change, leading to victory."

The main points

The ideas and proposals are then listed in general terms. The principle is to make the US armed forces more flexible and to shift the emphasis:

* From a peacetime tempo - to a wartime sense of urgency

* From a time of reasonable predictability - to an era of surprise and uncertainty

* From single-focused threats - to complex challenges

* From nation-state threats - to decentralised network threats

* From conducting war against nations - to conducting war in countries we are not at war with (safe havens)

* From large institutional forces (tail) - to more powerful operational capabilities (teeth).

There is a lot more like this in the 92 page document.

The practical effects are going to be an increase in Special Forces and more US forces stationed in perhaps smaller groups around the world, sometimes clandestinely and even without the knowledge of local US diplomats.

There will be more unmanned drones.

There will even be special teams trained to disarm nuclear weapons. The threat of terrorists using weapons of mass destruction is partly what lies behind the overall commitment.

Critics are already saying that the Pentagon will no doubt also demand the big ticket items like new jet fighters and heavy equipment for the army.

But the thinking behind the review is to configure forces to better prevent or counter the kind of surprise attacks launched by al-Qaeda and its network of networks.

What the review does not get into, because it is not meant to, is the place that military tactics occupy in the wider strategy in such a long war.

The document does allude to this at the end by stating: "The United States will not win the war on terrorism... by military means... simultaneous, effective interaction with civilian populations will be essential to achieve success."

And of course the lesson from the Cold War is that it was not won by military means, though military strength certainly played a key role. It was won by one system collapsing.

[Shelbay]

That was a good read Gumby....especially about the cold war.

[Ripper]

The document does allude to this at the end by stating: "The United States will not win the war on terrorism... by military means... simultaneous, effective interaction with civilian populations will be essential to achieve success."

Does tht not realy just mean spying...on there own people and others. I bet spying is on there list of dirty words not to use in releases

Rips

[Bong30]

we will win the war on terror...we have to.


i dont want my kids to be muslim, and my daughter to wear a berka....hell no

Gumby if you liked america as much as you liked Al quida.... you might see my point of view a little more often.

[eg420ne]

You see this War On Terror is really called The Long War and will last 100s of yrs thanks to the neo-cons and the PNAC plan.. As a person who dosent believe the government story surrounding the events of 911, I tend to think people who fear the muslims and fear the burkas have fallen right in to the neo-cons trap, dont get me wrong here i do believe radical muslims out there have thought that, but i dont perceived them as my enemy, my government is my enemy. The Neo-Cons are my enemy, The demopublicans are my enemy, the IRS is my enemy, FBI is my enemy, and on and on and on.....:thumbsup:

[Shelbay]

eg420...After paying the IRS again this year...I agree about those nasty 3 letter agencies....seems like all the bloodsuckers have 3 initials. All we do Is pay taxes,taxes,taxes!!!!:mad: Hello Feds...Since we pay sooo much to live here in the Country we love the Good Old U.S.A...how about we legalize MJ and I would happily pay THOSE taxes...as it is now I just resent you more each year...every time I sign that darn check! Where the heck do ALL of these taxes go?? I know,I know...I have been told where they are SUPPOSED to be channeled but I don't see it. Money is at the root of all evil.

[andyandy]

of course the "war on terror" can't be won......it's such a loose term - a convienient, easy to swallow slogan to sell to people who'd rather not think for themselves. Its no more valid as a concept than the "war on drugs" which in one broad re-branded stroke bundled cannabis into the same category as crack or heroin.

for the US administration, Al quedia are terrorists and Sunni insurgents are terrorists, lone nuts (like the Oklahoma bomber) are terrorists,
the Israelis see the PLA as terrorists
In Britain the IRA are terrorists
The Palestinian see the Israelis as guilty of state sponsored terrorism
The Russians label Cheychen rebels as terrorists
The Spanish label the Basque seperatist groups like ETA terrorists

each definition of terrorism varies - whether it represents a group fighting for nationalistic reasons specific to their own geographical circumstance, for ideological reasons which extend national borders, or for no discernable reason at all other than a grudge against society in general.

with regard to the US and al qaeda (which seemed to be the main thrust of the war on terror until bush got sidetracked....) the US is "at war" with an ideology....but you can't beat an ideology with bombs - for every person you kill, you create a martyr to the cause, a greater sense of injustice and a hardened will for revenge.

the "war" with al qaeda will be won in decades not years - and only through undercutting the appeal of such a radical anti-western creed to young adherents....The first step would be to sort out the isreali-palestinian issue.......don't hold your breath folks....so far all the "war on terror" has only acheived a greater radicalisation of an already troubled middle east, hardened anti-American and anti-western sentiment and created a new front on which terrorist groups like al queda can fight. Well done George - $400 billion well spent.... :)




























Money is at the root of all evil.

those who say the money is root of all that kills have never been poor,
they have never known the joys of a welfare christmas.
(prize for anyone who knows who said that....)

[Shelbay]

I have known being poor since you posted PART of my original post...and I know welfare very well...I just got through mailing a huge check to help support in part people that have live in HUD housing and receive welfare benefits every month because their butt is to lazy to get out and find work..so don't even start trying that little pity party about people don't know poor just because we have opinions and money....and it was trying to mislead with that word exchange about money is at the root that kills...I said money is at the root of all evil...tell it like I said it....not just part of it..and money is at the root of all evil imo. Just don't tell me about what I know about life because of my opinion...I don't know you and you don't know me so please don't make presume to include me in your analysis like you did at the end of your post..thanks:)

[Psycho4Bud]

the "war" with al qaeda will be won in decades not years - and only through undercutting the appeal of such a radical anti-western creed to young adherents....The first step would be to sort out the isreali-palestinian issue.......don't hold your breath folks....so far all the "war on terror" has only acheived a greater radicalisation of an already troubled middle east, hardened anti-American and anti-western sentiment and created a new front on which terrorist groups like al queda can fight. Well done George - $400 billion well spent.... :)

Does anyone else notice one thing about Al-Quedas war.....they seem to kill more Muslims than westerners. It's hard to create martyrs when your killing their families.

[Bong30]

Dickens?

[andyandy]

Does anyone else notice one thing about Al-Quedas war..... they seem to kill more Muslims than westerners.

i was refering to the US "war on terrorism" which has been responsible for the death of tens of thousands of people.....religious extremists can then use these people's deaths as a recruiting card for their mission - even if the people killed were not martyrs for a specific cause themselves, extremists can exploit the resentment caused by their deaths to create martyrs out of them....

[Bong30]

You see this War On Terror is really called The Long War and will last 100s of yrs thanks to the neo-cons and the PNAC plan.. As a person who dosent believe the government story surrounding the events of 911, I tend to think people who fear the muslims and fear the burkas have fallen right in to the neo-cons trap, dont get me wrong here i do believe radical muslims out there have thought that, but i dont perceived them as my enemy, my government is my enemy. The Neo-Cons are my enemy, The demopublicans are my enemy, the IRS is my enemy, FBI is my enemy, and on and on and on.....:thumbsup:
This is what we should be worried about..... we can vote the rest out in 08

European Report
Thousands Protest Brussels MP3 Murder. BBC Omits Facts
by Paul Belien, The Brussels Journal
Monday, April 24, 2006

Today, some 80,000 people participated in a silent march in Brussels to commemorate 17 year old Joe Van Holsbeeck, who was knifed on 12 April because he refused to hand over his MP3 player to two North African youths. The murder happened during the evening rush hour in a crowded Brussels central station. The murderers were filmed by security cameras, but it took a full week before the authorities released the footage. The assassins are still at large.

This BBC report about the march, which was the largest protest in the country since 1996 when 300,000 marched through Brussels in anger over the murdering of children, does not mention the ethnicity of the assassins, though many Belgians are worried about the extremely violent mentality of North African youth gangs. [update 24 April, 7:30am GMT: the BBC has added a few final paragraphs mentioning "racial tension"] In fact, the initiative for the march came from Fouad Ahidar, a Moroccan-born Flemish member of the Brussels regional parliament, who said last week that many immigrants are equally worried about violent Moroccan youth gangs.

Ahidar, a father of five, already called for a protest march on 15 April, saying that if the victims had been immigrants and not Belgians, "or even if an immigrant just gets a few kicks from police officers, half of Brussels would be on the streets in solidarity with the victim." According to the Moroccan-born MP, anti-Belgian racism is rife among Muslim street gangs. "This murder stinks of racism," he said. "There is a growing group of criminal Moroccan and Turkish youths who go after victims who look like infidels. We have to fight racism in all its varieties, whether by the immigrants or the native community." What Ahidar says is common knowledge but only he may say so. If a native Belgian makes such comments he or she risks being taken to court for racism by the authorities' racism watchdog CEOOR, an instrument used by the government parties to silence political opponents.

In response to Ahidar's appeal many immigrant organisations had called on their members to participate in the protest. Because the BBC report does not mention the ethnicity of the murderers it also has to omit the presence of immigrants in the protest. "There are many Muslims here," imam Nordine Taouil told Flemish radio and television today. He stressed that many imams had called upon the faithful to be present. "We are here to show that we oppose violence."


just the other side...

EG, gumby, shelby, gs, they want you just as dead.....unless you convert that is. The radicals have highjacked the muslim religon just like they highjacked those planes. It needs to be stopped. guys do a google search on the brotherhood and get back to me.

[andyandy]

I just got through mailing a huge check to help support in part people that have live in HUD housing and receive welfare benefits every month because their butt is to lazy to get out and find work..so don't even start trying that little pity party about people don't know poor just because we have opinions and money....and it was trying to mislead with that word exchange about money is at the root that kills...I said money is at the root of all evil...

well....root of all evil, root of all that kills - sorry if i dont see a huge distinction there - killing would appear to be a subset of evil - and so if anything i've watered down your original comment.....

you seem to be kinda ideologically confused - your saying that money is the root of all evil - so that's capitalism yeah? The capitalist system that means we in the west have schooling, healthcare, regular meals, a life expectancy over 70, housing, jobs, disposable income to spend on soft drugs, computers, cars, TVs......
would you be happier with a communist/socialist model? working for the state - well that certainly works on an ideological level.....but then the root of socialism is welfare - ie looking after those unable to look after themselves....all sharing our wealth....and yet you dont seem too keen on a welfare model either.....hmmm
my original quote about "people who say money is the root of all that kills....." was to highlight this contradiction - but i think you've a better job of it than me :)

[eg420ne]

This is what we should be worried about..... we can vote the rest out in 08

European Report
Thousands Protest Brussels MP3 Murder. BBC Omits Facts
by Paul Belien, The Brussels Journal
Monday, April 24, 2006

Today, some 80,000 people participated in a silent march in Brussels to commemorate 17 year old Joe Van Holsbeeck, who was knifed on 12 April because he refused to hand over his MP3 player to two North African youths. The murder happened during the evening rush hour in a crowded Brussels central station. The murderers were filmed by security cameras, but it took a full week before the authorities released the footage. The assassins are still at large.

This BBC report about the march, which was the largest protest in the country since 1996 when 300,000 marched through Brussels in anger over the murdering of children, does not mention the ethnicity of the assassins, though many Belgians are worried about the extremely violent mentality of North African youth gangs. [update 24 April, 7:30am GMT: the BBC has added a few final paragraphs mentioning "racial tension"] In fact, the initiative for the march came from Fouad Ahidar, a Moroccan-born Flemish member of the Brussels regional parliament, who said last week that many immigrants are equally worried about violent Moroccan youth gangs.

Ahidar, a father of five, already called for a protest march on 15 April, saying that if the victims had been immigrants and not Belgians, "or even if an immigrant just gets a few kicks from police officers, half of Brussels would be on the streets in solidarity with the victim." According to the Moroccan-born MP, anti-Belgian racism is rife among Muslim street gangs. "This murder stinks of racism," he said. "There is a growing group of criminal Moroccan and Turkish youths who go after victims who look like infidels. We have to fight racism in all its varieties, whether by the immigrants or the native community." What Ahidar says is common knowledge but only he may say so. If a native Belgian makes such comments he or she risks being taken to court for racism by the authorities' racism watchdog CEOOR, an instrument used by the government parties to silence political opponents.

In response to Ahidar's appeal many immigrant organisations had called on their members to participate in the protest. Because the BBC report does not mention the ethnicity of the murderers it also has to omit the presence of immigrants in the protest. "There are many Muslims here," imam Nordine Taouil told Flemish radio and television today. He stressed that many imams had called upon the faithful to be present. "We are here to show that we oppose violence."


just the other side...

EG, gumby, shelby, gs, they want you just as dead.....unless you convert that is. The radicals have highjacked the muslim religon just like they highjacked those planes. It needs to be stopped. guys do a google search on the brotherhood and get back to me.
I dont understand--people kill each other everyday whats the point in your post man..Like i said b4 i dont give a flying fuk about the rest of the world, we need to tend to the USA...So people kill people-So What! people been killing each other for over 5000yrs now, hell GOD told the JEWs to kill people(even women & children) so they can take there land, whats the difference..Nothing has changed....And i dont see any muslims forcing me to convert and if any1 tries they better hope there belief system is real:thumbsup:

[Shelbay]

well....root of all evil, root of all that kills - sorry if i dont see a huge distinction there - killing would appear to be a subset of evil - and so if anything i've watered down your original comment.....

you seem to be kinda ideologically confused - your saying that money is the root of all evil - so that's capitalism yeah? The capitalist system that means we in the west have schooling, healthcare, regular meals, a life expectancy over 70, housing, jobs, disposable income to spend on soft drugs, computers, cars, TVs......
would you be happier with a communist/socialist model? working for the state - well that certainly works on an ideological level.....but then the root of socialism is welfare - ie looking after those unable to look after themselves....all sharing our wealth....and yet you dont seem too keen on a welfare model either.....hmmm
my original quote about "people who say money is the root of all that kills....." was to highlight this contradiction - but i think you've a better job of it than me :)Your right about the confused part;) And I still say imo I don't like only part of my post being used to make that distinction.:) And since you asked...I Would be happier if young people were being taught that being underage,no education,and having unprotected sex is NOT a good thing that results in millions of single mothers and children with no fathers..and I also would be happy living by Individual State laws without paying huge sums of our money to the Federal Government.:) Theres much that makes me happy and I may seem contradictory and complex..maybe I am..but you need to think about it this way okay..you say people are unable to look after themselves? So true...people are so dependent...I wouldn't want anyone to suffer needlessly but things need to change..imo:)

[Gumby]

we will win the war on terror...we have to.


i dont want my kids to be muslim, and my daughter to wear a berka....hell no

Gumby if you liked america as much as you liked Al quida.... you might see my point of view a little more often.


if you loved america in the least you would understand what you just said is a bunch of shit...

We have a freedom of religion in this country... what don't you get about that?? This isn't God's country... his name isn't in the Consitution for a reason.. there is nothing wrong with muslim or berka's for that matter... it's the freedom to chose what you want to believe and how you want to live that america was founded on... not some highest chrsitian prick telling us what we can and cannot do and who and who not are enemies are... I have never been threated by a Muslim person... the only one's I've met have been loving and caring... it's the Christian that you support that are stealing our country, not the Muslim terrorist...

If you're so worried abuot your religion maybe you should believe in something that holds up to truth rather than having to force what you believe on others... That's why I love america and what it was founded for... because I believe that as long as I harm no one I should be FREE to live life as I wish... That's what america is... not some place where Muslims aren't allowed... you leave if you don't like it cause you're the terrorist not the Muslim...

[Psycho4Bud]

i was refering to the US "war on terrorism" which has been responsible for the death of tens of thousands of people.....religious extremists can then use these people's deaths as a recruiting card for their mission - even if the people killed were not martyrs for a specific cause themselves, extremists can exploit the resentment caused by their deaths to create martyrs out of them....

Are you speaking of the Taliban in Afghanistan or Zarqawi and friends in Iraq? Like I said before, these pot lickers kill more Muslims than they do westerners. The peoples of Afghanistan, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, etc....are getting sick and tired of these jihadists.
We let these punks kick at our ankles for years but when the big ol' bitch slap came....hell yes! Time to take care of buisiness!!!:thumbsup:

[andyandy]

Your right about the confused part;) And I still say imo I don't like only part of my post being used to make that distinction.:) And since you asked...I Would be happier if young people were being taught that being underage,no education,and having unprotected sex is NOT a good thing that results in millions of single mothers and children with no fathers..and I also would be happy living by Individual State laws without paying huge sums of our money to the Federal Government.:) Theres much that makes me happy and I may seem contradictory and complex..maybe I am..but you need to think about it this way okay..you say people are unable to look after themselves? So true...people are so dependent...I wouldn't want anyone to suffer needlessly but things need to change..imo:)

fair enough :thumbsup:

[andyandy]

[QUOTE=Psycho4Bud]Like I said before, these pot lickers kill more Muslims than they do westerners. The peoples of Afghanistan, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, etc....are getting sick and tired of these jihadists. [QUOTE]

yeah i agree most people in afghanistan, jordan, egypt etc. dont identify with the al qaeda jihad - and when that jihad mission directly and adversely effects their own country and their own lives then yeah it will alienate yet more people. However my point was that the US is not doing itself any favours through its own policies - because these too are alienating people......
:)