Evolution or God????. . . .

[LOVElife]

What do you lot believe???

This could get interesting!!

Peace Out

LOVElife

:dance: :dance: :dance:
:dance: :dance: :dance:

[redsoxfan49]

you shoulda put an "im not sure" option, because, im not sure

[drew692k]

i can't believe anyone believes that we were created in a magical "poof" from a omnipitant god.

[mellow mood]

i beleive that ppl shouldnt take all what is wrote for rock and they should consider the possibility that it can be false or just take what their judgement think is good

i think everybody should be in a continuous evolution and i think that if theres a god thats what he want

continous evolution is the way to reach god man. being the best person you can be. always trust your judgment and your own values.

[LOVElife]

I personally believe what I have seen!

There is actually Evidence that Evolution is accurate, fossils etc! I have yet to be shown any evidence that I believe that we all came from God in a Few Days! I mean, it's evidence against rumour!

[robert42]

neither

i beleive

ROBERT made the world

[smokincajun]

I prefer the idea of "adaptation" to evolution. There's tons of material out there for the pros & cons of both though. I believe in creation, but not so much a "poof" type of thing. While the Bible says that everything was created in 6 days, it also says that to God, a second is like a thousand years...I guess one would need to be a scholar in Arabic to determine the root meanings of the words to decipher what time frame it means exactly.

Also, something I've always wondered...what did a platypus evolve from? A duck and a beaver? I wonder which was the "mom" & which was the "dad".

And something else...if we're evolved from Apes, how come there aren't dog-people, cat-people, dolphin-people, etc? I know apes are smart & all, but I've seen studies where parrots out-performed chimps, so I don't know if it has much to do with the brain size.

[LOVElife]

Opposabal Thumb^

[smokincajun]

ICR.org is one of many pretty good website for pro-creation arguments.

[beachguy in thongs]

The Scientific Breakthrough of the Year was the one that furthered along proof of evolution.

I believe God created evolution. He created Man. God had nothing to do with words.
Man invented words.

[mellow mood]

i dont think any god created something

i think is theres a god, he has to be all

which means, he always existed, he will never end. so i guess thats it. nothing was ever created. our universe has started. but there was another universe before th one we live in. i think that god i simply life.

but no i beleive in evolution because the fact are the facts. i think the bible can have been word manipulated a lot or can just be false or whatever

anyway..

[LOVElife]

I brought this up as having an Argument with my mate!

He said he was Christian, so I said "What you don't believe Darwin's Theory and all the evidence to prove Evolution?"

You have to be 1 way or another!

[smokincajun]

I brought this up as having an Argument with my mate!

He said he was Christian, so I said "What you don't believe Darwin's Theory and all the evidence to prove Evolution?"

You have to be 1 way or another!

Have your mate check out that link I pasted...he'll probably like it. There are many others like it (and to the contrary, of course). It should make for an interesting dinner conversation one evening. Honestly, I am quite surprised that it's not more lopsided towards evolution. Most folks I talk to about it think I'm completely off-kilter for believing in creation.

[Euphoric]

Evolution (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_02) is the key ;)

[Pyramidsonmars]

i can't believe anyone believes that we were created in a magical "poof" from a omnipitant god.

I can't believe some people believe that all matter and energy just somehow manages to exist in a very orderly fashion WITHOUT something beyond this phyiscal materialistic reality fashioning and guiding it (aka God)

[Pyramidsonmars]

I personally believe what I have seen!

There is actually Evidence that Evolution is accurate, fossils etc! I have yet to be shown any evidence that I believe that we all came from God in a Few Days! I mean, it's evidence against rumour!

It's funny but there is also countless evidence FOR creation. The idea of creation however would require the teaching of religion. It's because, for some reason, religion isn't allowed to be taught to the public in our multi-culteral continent.

There have also been countless changes to the theory of evolution. New evidence is always changing old ideas, whereas creationism has remained intellectually defendable and unchanged (that is creationism according to the bible)

www.answersingenesis.org has a LOT of creationism information

[Euphoric]

I can't believe some people believe that all matter and energy just somehow manages to exist in a very orderly fashion WITHOUT something beyond this phyiscal materialistic reality fashioning and guiding it (aka God)


There was a time when this type of thinking ruled the world. We call that period in our history the Dark Ages.

[Pyramidsonmars]

There was a time when this type of thinking ruled the world. We call that period in our history the Dark Ages.

Explain YOUR argument then.

btw, it was during the stages that christianity ruled the world that we CAME out of those dark ages.

Evolution is so thoroughly desperate in it's argument that it's really a believe it 100% or 0% type of thing. For every argument evolutionist have made, there is a creationist answer to it. Do some research, and NOT just on evolutionist web pages, but creationist ones as well and you'll at least come up with some good questions to ask.

I would strongly argue that creationism is the more intellectually explainable than evolution

[smokincajun]

There was a time when this type of thinking ruled the world. We call that period in our history the Dark Ages.

Actually, I believe it's quite the contrary...from what I understand, the Dark Ages refers more to the period whenever Biblical principles were being outlawed and banned. If Jesus is the Light, then without him it was considered dark.

"In him was life, and that life was the light of man. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it" John 1:4&5 NIV

[Euphoric]

Explain YOUR argument then.

btw, it was during the stages that christianity ruled the world that we CAME out of those dark ages.

Evolution is so thoroughly desperate in it's argument that it's really a believe it 100% or 0% type of thing. For every argument evolutionist have made, there is a creationist answer to it. Do some research, and NOT just on evolutionist web pages, but creationist ones as well and you'll at least come up with some good questions to ask.

I would strongly argue that creationism is the more intellectually explainable than evolution


First, to disprove your ignorance on the dark ages.

The Middle Ages is a stretch of a thousand years called mediæval and feudal, words that are like the word dinosaurâ??they are used pejoratively. They mean backward, barbaric, primitive or, at the least, old fashionedâ??the antithesis of our clever and sophisticated modern times. The reason is that in that thousand years, crime, vice, violence, drunkenness, disease, mortality, brutality, exploitation and injustice were immeasurably worse than before or after. Yet, they are the time when the church was at its most powerful, when cathedrals were built, bishops lived in palaces and many of the male population were churchmenâ??monks, priests, bishops, friars, templars, hospitallers, priors, lay brothers.

k.

We are living in an age when ignorant Christian mobs are once again trying to replace science and knowledge with religious rituals. If we donâ??t learn from history, they will again throw us into another 1,000-year period of â??The Dark Agesâ?�.

[ADaisyChain]

words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words

I think that about sums up my feelings on this subject.

As you can tell by my flurry of

words

I'm very convinced my words beat your words in the word war.

See you in the trenches!

And you forgot the: "I think anyone who acts like they know the unknowable is an arrogant dick. Be in god created the world in 7 days or darwin created it in 3."

[eg420ne]

Good post Adaisychain...

[ADaisyChain]

Good post Adaisychain...

word.

[mrdevious]

For every argument evolutionist have made, there is a creationist answer to it.



and vice versa. but thus far every argument from creationsists/intelligent design people I've ever heard entirely falls flat, usually something around the lines of "you can't disprove it, so that proves it".

[dopesmoker]

i think we were created by evolution, but i do believe in god. Just my own god.

[mrdevious]

I believe God created evolution. He created Man. God had nothing to do with words.
Man invented words.

beachguy, that's one of the most intelligent religious answers I've heard yet.

[sm0k1t]

that because you are high mrdevious =D

oh and beachguy, that's one of the most intelligent religious answers I've heard yet.
=D peace

[beachguy in thongs]

LOL, I couldn't vote. It's kind of like "Do you want peanut butter or jelly on your peanut butter and jelly sandwich?" I just cut it off before it was even possible to debate the existence of a God. Of course, according to the Bible, the first humans on Earth were aware of God. That's impossible, because then our beliefs would be instinctively ingrained instead of wide-ranging. Even if "The Devil" had corrupted Man, everyone of us still would have been born spiritual. The same way we're all, supposedly, born with The Original Sin, like it or not. Belief or not.
We have physical evidence of Evolution on parts of our bodies. A Supreme-Being would not create us with the single purpose of confusion.

[F L E S H]

I prefer the idea of "adaptation" to evolution. There's tons of material out there for the pros & cons of both though. I believe in creation, but not so much a "poof" type of thing. While the Bible says that everything was created in 6 days, it also says that to God, a second is like a thousand years...I guess one would need to be a scholar in Arabic to determine the root meanings of the words to decipher what time frame it means exactly.

Also, something I've always wondered...what did a platypus evolve from? A duck and a beaver? I wonder which was the "mom" & which was the "dad".

And something else...if we're evolved from Apes, how come there aren't dog-people, cat-people, dolphin-people, etc? I know apes are smart & all, but I've seen studies where parrots out-performed chimps, so I don't know if it has much to do with the brain size.
This is the stupidest argument I've ever read. It's clear to me that you have absolutely no idea what evolution really is. Go do some real research then come back.

[Pyramidsonmars]

First, to disprove your ignorance on the dark ages.

The Middle Ages is a stretch of a thousand years called mediæval and feudal, words that are like the word dinosaurâ??they are used pejoratively. They mean backward, barbaric, primitive or, at the least, old fashionedâ??the antithesis of our clever and sophisticated modern times. The reason is that in that thousand years, crime, vice, violence, drunkenness, disease, mortality, brutality, exploitation and injustice were immeasurably worse than before or after. Yet, they are the time when the church was at its most powerful, when cathedrals were built, bishops lived in palaces and many of the male population were churchmenâ??monks, priests, bishops, friars, templars, hospitallers, priors, lay brothers.

k.

We are living in an age when ignorant Christian mobs are once again trying to replace science and knowledge with religious rituals. If we donâ??t learn from history, they will again throw us into another 1,000-year period of â??The Dark Agesâ?�.

Firstly, this is riddled with inaccuracies. I don't mean to make this personal so I won't, but I would also appreciate it if you showed a little respect.

Secondly, I know my history. Whether you want to believe that or not isn't really important but it's something I've LONG been enthralled with, so my "ignorance" of the dark ages comment really doesn't have any ground on your part. Also, thanks for "disproving" my ignorance :)

You're also WRONG in saying that "in that thousand years, crime, vice, violence, drunkenness, disease, mortality, brutality, exploitation and injustice were immeasurably worse than before or after" and that it was that time that the church had the most power. The dark age is called the dark age because "mean were in the dark", and because of the lack of any recorded history from that era. It also has to do with the fact that a great empire once ruled Europe, and now that empire has fallen and the "great european whole" is now scattered. BTW the Church has remained just as strong and influencial, and was NOT at it's most powerful from 400ad to 1000ad which is what most people would concider the "dark ages"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages < I'd also appreciate links to back up your arguments if you expect me to take them seriously

If we donâ??t learn from history, they will again throw us into another 1,000-year period of â??The Dark Agesâ?�.

These are wise words. If there is anything to learn from history, it's that we as a species have gone NOwhere in the way we think, and in the way we act. People have this arogant idea that the human race has improved. Our methods and technology are further developed sure, but we're no "smarter" or any better morally for sure. Just look at the pyramid of giza. They couldn't build a pyramid today that is so mathematically and scientifically perfect WITHOUT computers.

btw, if you're bored: http://ce.eng.usf.edu/pharos/wonders/pyramid.html
it's quite intresting.

[Pyramidsonmars]

and vice versa. but thus far every argument from creationsists/intelligent design people I've ever heard entirely falls flat, usually something around the lines of "you can't disprove it, so that proves it".

That's where I disagree. Evolution is based on very non-permanent scientific data. Creationist Scientists have managed to keep a very consistant answer.

The thing that most people seem to forget is that one's faith in Evolution is just as much "based on the facts" as one's faith in God. Evolution has by no means been proven. That is fately misunderstood by those who believe in it and yet are not scientists themselves (aka normal people who believe in evolution based on what scientists TELL them).

I as a christian believe what I believe based on what I've seen (and felt). NOT because I'm weak and need to believe in God (that idea is a contradiction anyway because it requires much strength and dedication to do God's work). People often think christians are the ones in the dark who just don't see the obvious, but in truth it's the same for atheists. You're asked to pick a standpoint based on what you already know about life/the world/logic/etc, and to be honest, there is a solid standpoint from a christian point of view. We KNOW what we believe, but atheism gives a shakey ground at best that is ALWAYS changing.

The funny thing is that the bible claims to be an historical account of what actually happened. Go read something in the bible, find the name of a place or city or person, and then go look it up and find out that it actually exists/existed...

[Pyramidsonmars]

LOL, I couldn't vote. It's kind of like "Do you want peanut butter or jelly on your peanut butter and jelly sandwich?" I just cut it off before it was even possible to debate the existence of a God. Of course, according to the Bible, the first humans on Earth were aware of God. That's impossible, because then our beliefs would be instinctively ingrained instead of wide-ranging. Even if "The Devil" had corrupted Man, everyone of us still would have been born spiritual. The same way we're all, supposedly, born with The Original Sin, like it or not. Belief or not.
We have physical evidence of Evolution on parts of our bodies. A Supreme-Being would not create us with the single purpose of confusion.

You're right! The bible teaches that all men are born knowing God. Jesus claims that we are to be like children. Childhood is actually a lot closer to God than adulthood.

This is taken from romans:

For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.

also:

32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of (BD)death, they not only do the same, but also (BE)give hearty approval to those who practice them.

[beachguy in thongs]

PYRAMIDS ON MARS, now I know why everyone says that the Bible contradicts itself. It doesn't, it only clarifies?

[mrdevious]

That's where I disagree. Evolution is based on very non-permanent scientific data. Creationist Scientists have managed to keep a very consistant answer.

it's much easier to maintain a consistant answer when you can invent the answer as a simplistic "god did it" claim for everything. the only reason scientists don't remain "consistent" is because science is constantly evolving and evolutionists don't cling to a strict dogma of how it should be. creationists have never been able to prove their theory to maintain it, only refuse to refute it.


The thing that most people seem to forget is that one's faith in Evolution is just as much "based on the facts" as one's faith in God. Evolution has by no means been proven. That is fately misunderstood by those who believe in it and yet are not scientists themselves (aka normal people who believe in evolution based on what scientists TELL them).

nobody in the right mind has "faith" in evolution, they simply maintain that it is the theory with the most answers at present, a theory that is constantly growing and evolving. evolution and creationism are not just as much based on the facts. evolution is based on emperical evidence such is radiological carbon dating, fosil interpretation, and genetic consistencies. the only evidence intelligent design is based on, is evolutions lack therof is certain area's.


People often think christians are the ones in the dark who just don't see the obvious, but in truth it's the same for atheists. You're asked to pick a standpoint based on what you already know about life/the world/logic/etc, and to be honest, there is a solid standpoint from a christian point of view. We KNOW what we believe, but atheism gives a shakey ground at best that is ALWAYS changing.

again, atheism or evolution are not discredited because they have not yet determined all the answers. to say that christianity has more validity because of it's certainty is rediculous. a group of people forming an opinion, and refusing to budge in the face of numerous pieces of condradictory evidence isn't proof, it's stuborness, most often based on societal or family conditioning.



The funny thing is that the bible claims to be an historical account of what actually happened. Go read something in the bible, find the name of a place or city or person, and then go look it up and find out that it actually exists/existed...

I've no doubt that those places and people existed, but so what? If I write a book about a super powered holy man that takes place here in kelowna, B.C. and can prove kelowna exists, does that prove my tale? there's a fellow named benny hin who's a famous faith healer out of the united states. I'm pretty sure america exists and so does his home town and even him (considering I've seen him), doesn't mean a thing in prooving he has healing powers.

[Pyramidsonmars]

I have to admit, congrats on living in Kelowna. Beautiful place...beautiful bud

it's much easier to maintain a consistant answer when you can invent the answer as a simplistic "god did it" claim for everything. the only reason scientists don't remain "consistent" is because science is constantly evolving and evolutionists don't cling to a strict dogma of how it should be. creationists have never been able to prove their theory to maintain it, only refuse to refute it.

The idea behind creationism is taking what the bible says and looking for proof by scientific means. Yes we use the bible as a guideline, a presupposition if you will, but it's the goal of FINDING out whether or not this thing is accurate. The bible claims that God made the earth, that there was a global flood, and many other things... now what creationists try and do is test those claims...look for proof of them. If the bible says there was a global flood, and there is a lot of evidence for a flood (btw here (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/geology.asp)), and it seems obvious that this outrageous claim of the biblical flood COULD be true (nothing's PROVEN yet ;)) than we must take into consideration that the creation of the earth in six 24 hour days would also be literal, or even that God exists all together. (Btw the FLOOD isn't the only other thing that creationists are looking for proof of.) My argument here is that there is a lot of evidence, historical records, geological evidence for the things that are in the bible, therefor it's reasonable to conclude that the bible could also accurate in it's description of the creation.

nobody in the right mind has "faith" in evolution, they simply maintain that it is the theory with the most answers at present, a theory that is constantly growing and evolving. evolution and creationism are not just as much based on the facts. evolution is based on emperical evidence such is radiological carbon dating, fosil interpretation, and genetic consistencies. the only evidence intelligent design is based on, is evolutions lack therof is certain area's.

-So you're telling me that those who claim that evolution is true do not have "faith" in it? I assume you mean that these people claim they "think" it's true. Just so you know I'm not arguing the "I.D" theory, but rather the christian one. Evolution is based on ones faith that the claims in the bible of the creation, purpose, existence of, and direction of the human race and life in general is false. That is IT'S presupposition, and it goes for any religion that gives a different account of the creation of existence other than evolution as well. The idea that we've "found this truth" through carbon dating, fosil interpretation, and genetic consistencies is something I also have a problem with...just because I've heard two different answers from two different sides, neither more credible than the other. Creationists would tell you are genetic consistencies would argue in favor of the mitocondrial Eve, aside from the obvious decay of the human "gene" as the generations come and go. As well, carbon dating and fosil interpretation (don't forget that word) are in the hands of fallible men. The idea that fossils look millions of years old parallels the creationist argument that the extreme wieght of water in a global flood could infact give them that appearance.

again, atheism or evolution are not discredited because they have not yet determined all the answers. to say that christianity has more validity because of it's certainty is rediculous. a group of people forming an opinion, and refusing to budge in the face of numerous pieces of condradictory evidence isn't proof, it's stuborness, most often based on societal or family conditioning

I'm saying christianity has an answer to the question. Evolution has an ever changing answer due to misinterpreting evidence, new evidence, and a lot of estimation. I'm saying christianity is the argument FOR something, and evolution is simply the argument(s) against it. The problem is sometimes those arguments collide into one another and shatter, whereas creationists seem to have the same answer.

If I could give you an anology...I was building shelves for my girlfriend this week so:

Think of 5 people building 5 shelves. Two of those five people claims to have this set of directions that they found in the box. The other 3, being smart individuals, decide they will try and build the shelves themselves, through trial and error, because they don't believe that those directions are accurate. Whether or not that booklet of directions is right or wrong is something we won't be able to see until it's finished (aka when we die), but I can assure you that the 2 guys with the directions will have at least made the same thing, and will be able to see why/how everything got pieced together and how the thing works, without having to go through the mess of getting it wrong and having to start over again many times. Likewise I claim that as man becomes more advanced in science, the more christianity will appear evident in it's claim of creation (that is if mankind decides to be honest with it's use of science)

btw, I feel I should mention that individuals who claim to be of the christian religion should not represent that religion. I think I know who Benny Hinn is (is he an east indian guy?)...if it's who I think it is than he is one of those guys with a mask who claims to be of God but isn't. There are a lot of people who wish to undermine christianity, and some try to do it from the inside so that others see them and make assumptions about the religion. Kind of like how all Muslims are 6ft 6, and live in caves with AKA47's.

[Pyramidsonmars]

PYRAMIDS ON MARS, now I know why everyone says that the Bible contradicts itself. It doesn't, it only clarifies?

do you have an example of where the bible contradicts itself>?

[mrdevious]

I have to admit, congrats on living in Kelowna. Beautiful place...beautiful bud

thank you, I enjoy it daily :) .


it's much easier to maintain a consistant answer when you can invent the answer as a simplistic "god did it" claim for everything. the only reason scientists don't remain "consistent" is because science is constantly evolving and evolutionists don't cling to a strict dogma of how it should be. creationists have never been able to prove their theory to maintain it, only refuse to refute it.

The idea behind creationism is taking what the bible says and looking for proof by scientific means. Yes we use the bible as a guideline, a presupposition if you will, but it's the goal of FINDING out whether or not this thing is accurate. The bible claims that God made the earth, that there was a global flood, and many other things... now what creationists try and do is test those claims...look for proof of them. If the bible says there was a global flood, and there is a lot of evidence for a flood (btw here (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/geology.asp)), and it seems obvious that this outrageous claim of the biblical flood COULD be true (nothing's PROVEN yet ;)) than we must take into consideration that the creation of the earth in six 24 hour days would also be literal, or even that God exists all together. (Btw the FLOOD isn't the only other thing that creationists are looking for proof of.) My argument here is that there is a lot of evidence, historical records, geological evidence for the things that are in the bible, therefor it's reasonable to conclude that the bible could also accurate in it's description of the creation.

indeed, I have no doubt plenty of floods happened, but such a general and natural occurance being described in the bible is hardly proof of noah's arc. besides, if the whole world flooded where did we get enough water to do that and where did it all recede to? no geological evidence suggests the entire world flooded.
there are plenty of such consistancies, but far too vague to be of any real value, and I wouldn't take consistancies of the bible in one area to conclude that another area is therfor true.


nobody in the right mind has "faith" in evolution, they simply maintain that it is the theory with the most answers at present, a theory that is constantly growing and evolving. evolution and creationism are not just as much based on the facts. evolution is based on emperical evidence such is radiological carbon dating, fosil interpretation, and genetic consistencies. the only evidence intelligent design is based on, is evolutions lack therof is certain area's.

-So you're telling me that those who claim that evolution is true do not have "faith" in it? I assume you mean that these people claim they "think" it's true

well, as far as I've seen "faith" in religion is based on giving in to the claim by "making a leap of faith", not analysing thoroughly, but allowing yourself to stop queestioning. evolution is based on all questioning and is subject to change with new evidence, holding no "faith" (in this sense) to a single idea at all.


Just so you know I'm not arguing the "I.D" theory, but rather the christian one. Evolution is based on ones faith that the claims in the bible of the creation, purpose, existence of, and direction of the human race and life in general is false. That is IT'S presupposition, and it goes for any religion that gives a different account of the creation of existence other than evolution as well.

evolution is not held on FAITH that christianity's view is incorect, it's based on scientific evidence that presents answers that are observable and measurable. what distinguishes faith is that you're taking your religion's word for it because that's what you should believe as a member. evolution demands no faith, it demands only interpretation of evidence.


The idea that we've "found this truth" through carbon dating, fosil interpretation, and genetic consistencies is something I also have a problem with...just because I've heard two different answers from two different sides, neither more credible than the other. Creationists would tell you there are genetic consistencies would argue in favor of the mitocondrial Eve, aside from the obvious decay of the human "gene" as the generations come and go.

genetic consistencies, yes, could be argued in different ways. however, adam and eve aren't even possible due to the issue of inbreeding and genetic consequences of such. when you speak of decay of the human gene, I assume you mean this as an explanation for the inbreeding problem. however, inbreeding does not cause general decay of genetic quality, it causes specific diseases and conditions, such as the inability to clot ones blood.




As well, carbon dating and fosil interpretation (don't forget that word) are in the hands of fallible men. The idea that fossils look millions of years old parallels the creationist argument that the extreme wieght of water in a global flood could infact give them that appearance.

Carbon dating is not an interpretation by fallable men based on what it looks like. it is the analysis of the degree of radiological decay which is based on a consistant analysis of a particular radioactive half-life.


again, atheism or evolution are not discredited because they have not yet determined all the answers. to say that christianity has more validity because of it's certainty is rediculous. a group of people forming an opinion, and refusing to budge in the face of numerous pieces of condradictory evidence isn't proof, it's stuborness, most often based on societal or family conditioning

I'm saying christianity has an answer to the question. Evolution has an ever changing answer due to misinterpreting evidence, new evidence, and a lot of estimation. I'm saying christianity is the argument FOR something, and evolution is simply the argument(s) against it. The problem is sometimes those arguments collide into one another and shatter, whereas creationists seem to have the same answer.

Where is the proof that christianity has the answers? christianity certainly claims to have all the answers, but never changing a claim doesn't make it correct. and that's all the "answers" are, claims of being answers.
as for evolution, it may have to change and add to it's structure, but that's the nature of continual research into the nature of things.

I actually find it kind of funny that you say christianity is FOR something while evolution is AGAINST it, because the argument can easily go the other way. evolution is FOR the theory of species developement through natural selection, while creation is often AGAINST the flaws in evolution as proof of it's existence. when it comes to anti-creationism arguments being AGAINST something, you're thinking of atheism, not evolution.


If I could give you an anology...I was building shelves for my girlfriend this week so:

Think of 5 people building 5 shelves. Two of those five people claims to have this set of directions that they found in the box. The other 3, being smart individuals, decide they will try and build the shelves themselves, through trial and error, because they don't believe that those directions are accurate. Whether or not that booklet of directions is right or wrong is something we won't be able to see until it's finished (aka when we die), but I can assure you that the 2 guys with the directions will have at least made the same thing, and will be able to see why/how everything got pieced together and how the thing works, without having to go through the mess of getting it wrong and having to start over again many times. Likewise I claim that as man becomes more advanced in science, the more christianity will appear evident in it's claim of creation (that is if mankind decides to be honest with it's use of science)

not really a comparable analogy. we can take it for granted that the instructions will be accurate because manufacturer's instruction are most of the time accurate. they also set out guidlines for accomplishing the task, and when the project is done we can verify it's accuracy. creationist arguments, however, are again only claimed to be verifiable after death, conveniently where nobody can tell the rest of us if it's true. because we have seen no results and never will, unlike the cupboard instructions, the bible's claims aren't valid.


btw, I feel I should mention that individuals who claim to be of the christian religion should not represent that religion. I think I know who Benny Hinn is (is he an east indian guy?)...if it's who I think it is than he is one of those guys with a mask who claims to be of God but isn't. There are a lot of people who wish to undermine christianity, and some try to do it from the inside so that others see them and make assumptions about the religion. Kind of like how all Muslims are 6ft 6, and live in caves with AKA47's.


I don't think any one person represents the entire religion, that's not what I was saying. I was speaking in relation to what you said about the places and people in the bible being real places, and how that in its self does not prove anything. I'll take a non christian if it would be more suitable, john edwards, the psychic. he's a real person, from a real place, but that doesn't prove he has psychic powers.

(on a side note, benny hin is a white evangellicle guy who has a televangelist show)

[beachguy in thongs]

do you have an example of where the bible contradicts itself>?
I don't know the Bible. All these brilliant people, who come from somewhere, keep saying that the Bible contradicts itself and they show certain examples, none of which I care to remember. It's their underlying defense. The Bible contradicts itself. Yet when I go to it, I don't see anything that can possibly contradict itself.

Is it that people really aren't seeing that evolution of thoughts and ideas is possible? I know people are just gonna object to a universal idea for the purpose of rebellion, only.

What I mean is, that Moses' explanation of Adam & Eve, contradicted later on in the story or not, was furthered explained in the New Testament, but where people see contradiction, a higher intelligence is instituted and we've yet to learn to solve it's mysteries.

Either way, if you want proof of the Bible contradicting itself, I'm sure there are plenty of "Bible-bashers" around here.

[ADaisyChain]

Sorry for being a retard. CCC's make me a nutjob. I don't see a need for a god anymore. If you believe god can exist forever, then why not take a step down and believe the universe we know and can see can exist forever. I think it's all very interesting that we came to be. Amazing in fact. But I don't see the need for something intelligent making us. I think its just as likely we're coincidence made as it is god made. I kind of hope I'm wrong though, because I don't like the idea of nothingness, not that I'd recognize it to dislike it when I'm in it. I want a soul. If I don't have one though, it doesn't matter too much, because I'll never know in that case.

I'll either not know until I'm dead, or never know. But in the words of socrates
"Why fear eternal paradise and why fear nothing?" in some other language.

I clicked I believe in evolution, because I definately believe in evolution. I'm not sure about god though, and I'm leaning towards doubt and just ignoring the possibility and living a life according to my moral standards.

[F L E S H]

The question is invalid, anyway. You don't "believe" in evolution, just like you don't "believe" in relativity, or "believe" in electricity. These, along with evolution, are concepts that simply are, they exist. I don't "believe" in a tree because whether I believe in it or not, it's there.

[beachguy in thongs]

Sorry for being a retard. CCC's make me a nutjob. I don't see a need for a god anymore. If you believe god can exist forever, then why not take a step down and believe the universe we know and can see can exist forever. I think it's all very interesting that we came to be. Amazing in fact. But I don't see the need for something intelligent making us. I think its just as likely we're coincidence made as it is god made. I kind of hope I'm wrong though, because I don't like the idea of nothingness, not that I'd recognize it to dislike it when I'm in it. I want a soul. If I don't have one though, it doesn't matter too much, because I'll never know in that case.

I'll either not know until I'm dead, or never know. But in the words of socrates
"Why fear eternal paradise and why fear nothing?" in some other language.

I clicked I believe in evolution, because I definately believe in evolution. I'm not sure about god though, and I'm leaning towards doubt and just ignoring the possibility and living a life according to my moral standards.
It sounds like you listen to God and obey him, but you won't tell anyone. That one sentence is kind of funny, "I don't see the need for something intelligent making us". Think of an option for that sentence . Maybe there are hundreds, thousands of universes made by different Gods, and the Milky Way was the creation of one of the slow Gods. In that case, we should be concerned for Our God and give him support. I'm sure some people know what's it like getting picked last for a pick-up game.

[beachguy in thongs]

The question is invalid, anyway. You don't "believe" in evolution, just like you don't "believe" in relativity, or "believe" in electricity. These, along with evolution, are concepts that simply are, they exist. I don't "believe" in a tree because whether I believe in it or not, it's there.
Electricity has long been seen as the conduction of electric stuff. :stoned:

[derstig]

Having studied Evolution and related subjects as a Cellular & Molecular Biologist, there are obviously no doubts in my mind as to the validity of the Darwinian theory of Evolution..

[Oneironaut]

I really don't get how people can just ignore the heaps of paleontological, genetic and anatomical evidence there is for evolution just because some ancient text says the Earth was created in 6 days. If you really take this story seriously, you actually believe that the Earth existed before the stars did, which means you have to throw out huge heaps of astronomical evidence too. If you believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old or so, you have to throw out all modern geology. Eventually the person who believes the Bible to be literally true will end up rejecting all modern science, hence the war on science that's coming from the religious right in this country. These people are trying to introduce their religious superstition into our science classrooms so they can destroy science as we know it.

And the ironic thing is that they're supposedly doing it in the name of science. They actually call it "Christian Science", even though there's no science involved whatsoever. Science means you look at the evidence and draw conclusions from that. When the evidence contradicts your previous conclusions, you modify them. Christian "Scientists" never modify their ideas; they take as dogmatically true anything that is said in the Bible and try to cram the evidence into an account of history that will agree with that.

There's a reason all respectable scientists reject the Bible as an ancient work of fiction, because that's apparently exactly what it is. It rejects all kinds of observable, verifiable evidence. You have to be either really scientifically ignorant or really self-delusional to embrace creationism. Fortunately it seems to be the former, which could perhaps be solved with better science education. If we can successfully defend science education, that is.

[CocaCola]

I can't believe some people believe that all matter and energy just somehow manages to exist in a very orderly fashion WITHOUT something beyond this phyiscal materialistic reality fashioning and guiding it (aka God)
What I can't believe is that people think that God is actually a being of some sort.

[Sir Les]

I believe In God .
It is too evident that something of intelligent design is at work behind the seens!
If the evolution of man came from ape, why has it stopped?, where is the link?
And what caused the evolution to happen?..was there intervention of unknown design responsible for our making?
Where did the D.N.A come from?
These questions haven't been answered by science!
And the only way they ever will be answered, is when God comes down for a visit!
according to the Bible, this is suppose to happen, so we will see the the truth unfold as written.
All will be brought in to the light....

[PukkaSkunk]

was gonna write about 20 paragraphs i felt all inspired and shit, then i got blazed so fuck it i cant be bothered.










I AM GOD

[CocaCola]

I believe In God .
It is too evident that something of intelligent design is at work behind the seens!
If the evolution of man came from ape, why has it stopped?, where is the link?
And what caused the evolution to happen?..was there intervention of unknown design responsible for our making?
Where did the D.N.A come from?
These questions haven't been answered by science!
And the only way they ever will be answered, is when God comes down for a visit!
according to the Bible, this is suppose to happen, so we will see the the truth unfold as written.
All will be brought in to the light....

What do you mean evolution has stopped? I'm freaking alien, bitch!1

[CocaCola]

And why is Evolution and Creationism always pitted against each other? Is it so impossible to concieve the possibility that maybe a higher force created the "elements" to help the universe process it's self through evolution? Well, that would explain just about everything!1 But oh nnnoooo... it was only God!1

Why is God always looked at as a being or "consciousness" apart from humans and animals and everything else? Wouldn't it be more plausible to say that God is the collection of everything as a whole and that it all connects at the one point it started? NOPE! God is the one that created everything and we are his servent!!1 No,... I think the point is to be servents to your fellow man and creatures and even the environment (as it's all one). Think on the planets level... ouch, more garbage... oh shit, not another hurricane caused by shifts in the stabilty of my core because of nukes!1 OH NOES!

"With knowledge comes wisdom and understanding, and with wisdom and understanding comes empathy and unconditional love". - Me, I think.

[beachguy in thongs]

was gonna write about 20 paragraphs i felt all inspired and shit, then i got blazed so fuck it i cant be bothered.










I AM GOD
Was gonna write, too, now I feel all inspired to blaze, thanks. :stoned:

[beachguy in thongs]

Rum & COCA-COLA, I don't understand this sentence:

that it all connects at the one point it started

[CocaCola]

I can't explain it either... what I meant was... the collection of everything is connected at the one point where it all started. This is God.

Like this...

@-------------------\________________|----------------
^>>>>^>>>>>>>>>>^>>>>>>>>>>>>>^>>>>>>>>>>>^
God//Everything//Present Day//Later... it hasn't happened yet.//And the time that hasn't occured yet.

Sorry for the shitty diagram. It probably only makes sense to me... figure it out, anyways!

[CocaCola]

Stupid editing nonsense! but yeah... God was the start of the universe and it has been flowing through spacetime ever since it's creation. But it goes through a constant cycle of death (crunch) and rebirth (bang) and the universe constantly has to build it's self up again... and life to evolve again... and the next time the universe comes together, maybe we'll get closer to consciousness evolution.

I'm tired. GOOD FUCKING NIGHT.

[Pyramidsonmars]

The question is invalid, anyway. You don't "believe" in evolution, just like you don't "believe" in relativity, or "believe" in electricity. These, along with evolution, are concepts that simply are, they exist. I don't "believe" in a tree because whether I believe in it or not, it's there.

but you see you have to BELIEVE in your interpretation of the evidence for evolution. That is the theory that man came from natural means. Show me where they've found remains of an ape-man, not an ape and then a man, and THEN you'll have an argument.

[F L E S H]

but you see you have to BELIEVE in your interpretation of the evidence for evolution. That is the theory that man came from natural means. Show me where they've found remains of an ape-man, not an ape and then a man, and THEN you'll have an argument.
OH LORD I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT AND BEHOLD, I DO BELIEVE.

Seriously man, stop mixing up your little faith with science because you can't win, and in the end you just end up playing with semantics. There is nothing to believe, like I said, the sky will always be blue whether you or I believe it or not.

[beachguy in thongs]

but you see you have to BELIEVE in your interpretation of the evidence for evolution. That is the theory that man came from natural means. Show me where they've found remains of an ape-man, not an ape and then a man, and THEN you'll have an argument.
Here's your ape-man.

http://encyclopedia.tfd.com/pithecanthropus

[Pyramidsonmars]

Here's your ape-man.

http://encyclopedia.tfd.com/pithecanthropus

Dubois' find was not a complete specimen, as many are led to believe, but consisted merely of a skullcap, a femur, and three teeth. A 342 page report written shortly after the find throws much doubt upon the validity of this particular specimen. Despite this, the Java Man is still found in many textbooks today. A second Java Man was later discovered in the village of Sangiran, Central Java, 18km to the north of Solo. His remains, a skullcap of similar size to that found by Dubois, was discovered by Berlin-born paleontologist GHR von Koenigswald in 1936, as a direct result of excavations by Dubois in 1891.

[Pyramidsonmars]

Dubois' find was not a complete specimen, as many are led to believe, but consisted merely of a skullcap, a femur, and three teeth. A 342 page report written shortly after the find throws much doubt upon the validity of this particular specimen. Despite this, the Java Man is still found in many textbooks today. A second Java Man was later discovered in the village of Sangiran, Central Java, 18km to the north of Solo. His remains, a skullcap of similar size to that found by Dubois, was discovered by Berlin-born paleontologist GHR von Koenigswald in 1936, as a direct result of excavations by Dubois in 1891.

that's straight from your link, thanks :)

That is exactly what I mean. If you're trying to determine this new find, and you, like Darwin, are doing it with the presupposition that "God has not created man, so can we say that humanity came from "X", and "X" has led us to believe that such and such is so and so, we could include that bias of our belief into our fallible human mind. That is where you have to look closely at the truth and what is absolute truthful, logical, and sensible when explaining this.

[Pyramidsonmars]

Dubois' find was not a complete specimen, as many are led to believe, but consisted merely of a skullcap, a femur, and three teeth. A 342 page report written shortly after the find throws much doubt upon the validity of this particular specimen. Despite this, the Java Man is still found in many textbooks today. A second Java Man was later discovered in the village of Sangiran, Central Java, 18km to the north of Solo. His remains, a skullcap of similar size to that found by Dubois, was discovered by Berlin-born paleontologist GHR von Koenigswald in 1936, as a direct result of excavations by Dubois in 1891.

If you can't tell, Dubois has found something that is quite ordinary; that is a skullcap, a femur, and three teeth of some ordinairy animal or perhaps human remains, and has for some reason gotten it in his head that he should assume it could be something different...

[beachguy in thongs]

That guy had to bury his findings underneath a floorboard because of skeptics back in 1895.

More than a century later, he's still burying his bones.

[Pyramidsonmars]

OH LORD I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT AND BEHOLD, I DO BELIEVE.

Seriously man, stop mixing up your little faith with science because you can't win, and in the end you just end up playing with semantics. There is nothing to believe, like I said, the sky will always be blue whether you or I believe it or not.

Dude, that's the thing. We're both making our arguments based on science. The difference is the education of that science, and the presuppositionprior to interpreting it that goes behind it. If someone where looking at a dinosaur bone with the idea that there is a God, being the christian God, than they would assume that "it gave such an appearance as it does keeping in mind that the global flood and weight of water could possibly alter it's qualities".
Someone who has decided to deny what the bible has to say might take these altered "qualities" differently, saying "hmm these appear to show such and such indicating they would be this old. That is why christian science tends to agree with a 10,000 year old earth rather than a 4.5 billion year old one. That changes a lot of what secular science says, such as evolution (something that would take millions of years to occure). You see there is a very scientifically secure ground in which christianity stands on.

To put it this way, IF (for the sake of the argument here) the bible were correct, than using it as a scientific refrence would be the most accurate and intellegent way to propel scientific discovery. Think about it, the bible claims to be the "book of Life"...the "how to" book to how and what humanity is supposed to live (not by it's examples mind you, but by it's moral lessons when they are finally learned)...surely any wisdom and knowledge that humanity might gain in the field of science would come from God as humanity has this way of twisting thigns. IF the bible is true...but arguments against christianity that people claim to be from science are never that formidable...thought evolution caught on with a lot of people

[Pyramidsonmars]

Dude, that's the thing. We're both making our arguments based on science. The difference is the education of that science, and the presuppositionprior to interpreting it that goes behind it. If someone where looking at a dinosaur bone with the idea that there is a God, being the christian God, than they would assume that "it gave such an appearance as it does keeping in mind that the global flood and weight of water could possibly alter it's qualities".
Someone who has decided to deny what the bible has to say might take these altered "qualities" differently, saying "hmm these appear to show such and such indicating they would be this old. That is why christian science tends to agree with a 10,000 year old earth rather than a 4.5 billion year old one. That changes a lot of what secular science says, such as evolution (something that would take millions of years to occure). You see there is a very scientifically secure ground in which christianity stands on.

To put it this way, IF (for the sake of the argument here) the bible were correct, than using it as a scientific refrence would be the most accurate and intellegent way to propel scientific discovery. Think about it, the bible claims to be the "book of Life"...the "how to" book to how and what humanity is supposed to live (not by it's examples mind you, but by it's moral lessons when they are finally learned)...surely any wisdom and knowledge that humanity might gain in the field of science would come from God as humanity has this way of twisting thigns. IF the bible is true...but arguments against christianity that people claim to be from science are never that formidable...thought evolution caught on with a lot of people

and also keep in mind that IF the bible is correct, that means there is a darkness in our existance that lies to us and tries to skew our vision of reality. Therefor IF christianity exists as true, than mankind itself is under seige by the devil, and our vision of reality is, to put it bluntly, tampered with every day... there are beings out there who are opposed to it in every way, and in ever aspect of life, including those in the field of scientific research...so I have reason to suspect that science will be used in an attempt to thwart my religion

[F L E S H]

to Pyramidsonmars...

Dude, let me just begin by saying i'm drunk off my ass, this new year's eve...

You suck... You view everything through your christian lens. I've been there. One day you will realize that it's all arbitrary.

[F L E S H]

Sorry for my first previous post, it was the esult of drunken stupour.......................... :eek:

to Pyramidsonmars...

Dude, let me just begin by saying i'm drunk off my ass, this new year's eve...

You suck... You view everything through your christian lens. I've been there. One day you will realize that it's all arbitrary. Nothing means anything. Everything is absolutely ,meaningless.

Why do we look at Roman/Greek mythology and say, "oh, that';s just a myth" and then we look at christianity, and we devote our LIFE to it... It's completely meaningless. Nothing means anything, we exist, and that's it. We have no point, there ius no God, and we just live and reproduce ourselves for no other reason than we have to.

I was sick, very sick. That was the final straw. now, I am well, but my faith is completely gone, I am as atheist as you will ever see, because there is NOTHING else out there than ourselves.

however, we still have an obligation to humanity in general to do good, to help one another. Because I have no God, does not m,ean I am not good. I respect my fellow human. I love you all, but I believe in no Jesus, in no God at all.

Ultimately, I believe in Humanity. I believe in the potential of the human being. We do not need God anymore, That's wher Nietzsche's "God is Dead" comes from. We are beyond God, beyond Good and Evil. Anyone who thinks in those terms is outdated, irrelevant!

We are. There is no ther explanation. It's useless for you to find one, no one said it better than Descartes, "I think therefore I am." You simply are. No one willed you to be, you have no ultimate purpose other than the continuation of our species.

Why should we believe in your mythology rather than Greek or Roman or Chinese or Egyptian mythology? That is tyhe essential question. There is no reason to believe one religion over another, and for you to claim that Christianity is the absolute trut is of the utmost arrogance.

I am Italian, I was raised Roman Catholic, I know what it is to be a real Christian. Yet, I have rejected it as soon as I was able to thini for myself. And you my friend, are the last of a dying breed, the religious people. Ojnhe day, you will all realize that everything means absolutely n othing in the long run. Life is meaningless. existence is meaningless. religion is meaningless. God is meaningless. Allah is meaningless. Yaweh is meaningless, as well as Buddha, Shiva, Vishnu, and Every7one else..

We exist, and we might as well make as much out of our existence as we possibly can. The potential of the Human Being is limitless. We can achieve Divinity, God represents our potential power. we can shape our world around us, as long as we stop fighting and killing each other based simply on differring points of view. and you, Pyramidsonmars, are just another brainwashed soldire, unable to think for yourself, for you have pledged yourself toa certain cause, and you view everything through that distorted lens.

Step back, start from scratch, be simply a Human Being, rather than a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jew. That, my friend, is atheism. Acceptance of all of humanity, acceptance of truth, acceptance of reality, THAT is Atheism. Philosophy, Science, Un-contaminated TRUTH, that is reality. There is no God, there is no Allah, there is no Yawheh, There is no Jupiter or Zeus.

We are.

We are reality, we are the ultimate. whether we are European, or Jew, Arab or Chinese, We are. And that, IMO, Is the ultimate truth.

[mrdevious]

Dude, that's the thing. We're both making our arguments based on science. The difference is the education of that science, and the presuppositionprior to interpreting it that goes behind it. If someone where looking at a dinosaur bone with the idea that there is a God, being the christian God, than they would assume that "it gave such an appearance as it does keeping in mind that the global flood and weight of water could possibly alter it's qualities".
Someone who has decided to deny what the bible has to say might take these altered "qualities" differently, saying "hmm these appear to show such and such indicating they would be this old. That is why christian science tends to agree with a 10,000 year old earth rather than a 4.5 billion year old one. That changes a lot of what secular science says, such as evolution (something that would take millions of years to occure). You see there is a very scientifically secure ground in which christianity stands on.


I dont' see how you claim that both evolution and creationism are both based on presupposition. evolution is a science that grew and continues to grow and change based on new findings and evidence. the world is not this simple place where you choose your side and base your theory off it, real science is objectively analysing real evidence to find out as much as you can. all the bible is is a book of claims. there's no evidence or sceintific theory behind it's creation, it was created so as to spread the message that god has all your answers.

besides, the whole water pressure making dinosaur bones look old is just rediculous. besides the fact that there's no explanation as to where all the water came from and went, palaentologists didn't look at dinosaur bones and say "hey, you know that bone looks like it's..... let say 100 million years old". water pressure wouldn't change radioactive decay, wouldn't affect bone decay in the same way, and it doesn't account for there being varations in bone ages by as much as 200 million years and maybe more (speaking strictly of dinosaurs).

what it all comes down to is the bible doesn't actaully have any evidence other than trying find holes in other people's evidence.

[beachguy in thongs]

To Flesh:

Tu la rubella regazza con cu shue.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

god created evolution, stfu already and get a new topic going, maybe one that can make an actual IMPACT on the world instead of bickering over something that isnt going to do us an ounce of shit.


god created evolution so that a single celled organism could evolve into humans and turn the world into shit while bickering over creationism and evolution.

[mrdevious]

god created evolution, stfu already and get a new topic going, maybe one that can make an actual IMPACT on the world instead of bickering over something that isnt going to do us an ounce of shit.


god created evolution so that a single celled organism could evolve into humans and turn the world into shit while bickering over creationism and evolution.


good job, you've figured it out, uncovered all the answers, provided a solution to everything we ever wanted to know.... of course there's always the fools that dont' want to take your opinion as unquestionable fact.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

im just kinda tired of seeing this thread continue to live on :D

shame on me for even posting in here :p

[mrdevious]

im just kinda tired of seeing this thread continue to live on :D

shame on me for even posting in here :p

shame on us all then, as long as we're all shamed together :p .


but hey, as long as you don't click on a thread it can't bother you, the others in the meanwhile want to explore certain philosophies to the fullest extent.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

no no, it CAN bother me, it's like a post-black hole! it's absorbing all the decent posts on an indecent topic! i must put an end to this trecherous thread!


lol ok, so anyways, where are we?

everything is in a state of evolution, as while humans struggle to survive (albiet relying on machines) we slowly reverse our evolution. spiritual evolution, physical evolution, and mental evolution.

your thoughts have evolved since you were born, and continue to evolve, revolving around the rest of the world which you experiance.
your bodies dont really evolve anymore, and at a bare minimum; exerscise. and we're not getting enough, because we rely on machines to survive. we let SOMETHING else do the heavy lifting, and we just simply exist to make IT better, and OURSELVES worse.
with the constant failure to fufill our physical lives, we are constantly being reborn, destined to repeat this drag existance untill we finally learn our lessons, so we can advance, spiritually.

most of us dont seem to be capable of spiritual evolution anymore, and i dont doubt that this wont be my last time here on earth :(


but things ARE changing, with the help of the internet, many people are becoming more aware of the other sides of life they have been indavertly ignorant to all their lives.

many people are getting their wake up calls, and making an attempt to help, but due to the conditioned ignorance, thanks to your oh so protective government :rolleyes:

they shiled us from a lot, and are ignorant, themselves, to a lot more, else they would not feel the need to dumb us down.

there is a lot that is blocking our mental and spiritual evolution, and our own lazyness is hindering our physical evolution.


evolution is a painful existance, no pain no gain.

oh yeah, and vannity is pretty anti-evolution as well, just thought i'd throw that in there.

[beachguy in thongs]

I know, everytime someone posts, it goes bold, again.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

bold?

[Pyramidsonmars]

I dont' see how you claim that both evolution and creationism are both based on presupposition. evolution is a science that grew and continues to grow and change based on new findings and evidence. the world is not this simple place where you choose your side and base your theory off it, real science is objectively analysing real evidence to find out as much as you can. all the bible is is a book of claims. there's no evidence or sceintific theory behind it's creation, it was created so as to spread the message that god has all your answers.

besides, the whole water pressure making dinosaur bones look old is just rediculous. besides the fact that there's no explanation as to where all the water came from and went, palaentologists didn't look at dinosaur bones and say "hey, you know that bone looks like it's..... let say 100 million years old". water pressure wouldn't change radioactive decay, wouldn't affect bone decay in the same way, and it doesn't account for there being varations in bone ages by as much as 200 million years and maybe more (speaking strictly of dinosaurs).

what it all comes down to is the bible doesn't actaully have any evidence other than trying find holes in other people's evidence.

You seem to know a lot about this field of science? Perhaps you've studied it? Anyway, the bible clearly says that rain came down, but the "waters of the deep burst forth". It's one thing when writting a fictional story involving acts by super natural forces to simply just "provide enough water", but the bible itself is clearly somewhat scientific in it's story of the flood (at least it contains more scientific knowledge than any other doctrine, not to mention much of that science was not known at that time) The christian bible explains this very 'un-natural' (in the sense that it only happened once) world wide flood in the most sensible, realistic way that such a thing could happen. God never breaks any rule of nature, but rather bends them.The idea that water also came up from the ground and then very clearly decended back into the earth makes that question "where did all the water come from" a bit easier to see.

You know, it's a completely subjective thing, and that's why it's hard to argue about it. Person "A" sits in a corner and says I put my faith in what these evolutionists say because their reasons make sense...person "B" sits in the other corner saying I put my faith in what this bible says because it seems to speak to the world in a way no other book does. I'm sure both our opinions seem very odd to the other, but it's important to get across that I used to be atheist (and buddhist but that's aside from the point) and held evolutionairy views, though even at that time I had much skepticizm about them. I at least know where they come from, and the mindset that needs them, but there came a point in my life where most of my questions that went unanswered were answered when I finally gave up and asked God.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

You seem to know a lot about this field of science? Perhaps you've studied it? Anyway, the bible clearly says that rain came down, but the "waters of the deep burst forth". It's one thing when writting a fictional story involving acts by super natural forces to simply just "provide enough water", but the bible itself is clearly somewhat scientific in it's story of the flood (at least it contains more scientific knowledge than any other doctrine, not to mention much of that science was not known at that time) The idea that water also came up from the ground and then very clearly decended back into the earth makes that question "where did all the water come from" a bit easier to see.

You know, it's a completely subjective thing, and that's why it's hard to argue about it. Person "A" sits in a corner and says I put my faith in what these evolutionists say because their reasons make sense...person "B" sits in the other corner saying I put my faith in what this bible says because it seems to speak to the world in a way no other book does. I'm sure both our opinions seem very odd to the other, but it's important to get across that I used to be atheist (and buddhist but that's aside from the point) and held evolutionairy views, though even at that time I had much skepticizm about them. I at least know where they come from, and the mindset that needs them, but there came a point in my life where most of my questions that went unanswered were answered when I finally gave up and asked God.did you give up and ask god or did you look to the bible.


the biggest, and most flawed mistake in "looking to god" is that people look to RELIGION(s), and never once speak to god or listen to what GOD has to say.

[moeburn]

I am God.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

right, and im your son.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

god got all constipated, and eventually he was so backed up, that everything combined was collecting in his ass.

when he finally passed that disgusting mass, the result was Earth.

god felt so sorry for the inhabitants, to be a mutilated hybrid of reality, and the worst part is we clogged his toilet, so now we're dead center between heven and hell, hence the whole yin yang thing, the existance of both good and evil.

[F L E S H]

To Flesh:

Tu la rubella regazza con cu shue.
Hhmm?

[Faultydesign]

Charles Darwin was definately a racist.

I mean, Look at the title of his book
The Origin of Species
OR
The Preservation of the favored races.

[LegallyBlind]

I'm too lazy to read the four pages of posts so sorry if someone already made this arguement.
Did it ever occur to everyone that God acts through evolution? That God uses evolution as a tool to change creatures and God is the one responsible?
Just an idea.

[beachguy in thongs]

Yeah, it has. You must be legally blind.

[beachguy in thongs]

Hhmm?
Is that the way it's spelled in Canada?

When I was working for this Italian guy, who had this other (Northern) Italian guy helping him, the Northern Italian said that in his diallect, (what I said) means, "You are the most beautiful girl a man has ever met," or something like that.

[F L E S H]

Is that the way it's spelled in Canada?

When I was working for this Italian guy, who had this other (Northern) Italian guy helping him, the Northern Italian said that in his diallect, (what I said) means, "You are the most beautiful girl a man has ever met," or something like that.
It would be more like "tu sei la ragazza piu bella del mondo," or you're the hottest chick in the world :D

[F L E S H]

:smokin:

[esrabalamir]

hmmmmmmm

[DemoCommando]

I had this conversation with my g/f the other night. I had no idea I was with a Creationist and her entire family are creationists and believe 100% in ID. I was in shock, but my favorite part was when they ignored and denied facts like the fossil record, carbon dating, radioactive half-life, you know the usual if you have a brain and some time to look it up.
I'm angnostic to all religion and look to science as the key the everything.

Everything evolves
Evolution is a FACT of the universe people
the MECHANISM of evolution, or how evolution occurs is still just a theory.
There are 2 definitions for theory.
One, that a theory is just a guess
and two, that is a theory in that it has been reviewed ungodly amounts of times, includes major evidence and accepted by most scientists and still has to be reviewed.

In science, NOTHING is certain, as in 100% fact. Evolution is 99.99999999999999999999.......9% certain, but it can never be 100% certain. But it would be silly for a person to not accept Evolution and Natural Selection as certain becuase of all the evidence; unless you were a fundamentalist christian stubborn as hell to never question or re-interprete the bible as anything that isn't "right" or your local pastors interpretation.
In reality, ID(intelligent design) is just some other way that the Church controls it's people by trying to pass ID off as science, when it is just a intepretation of the Judeo-Christian bible. If you can get a mass of people to believe in 1 thing that is stone cold evidence to the mass, then the controller has power.

Bah, all religion are out to make money and every religion is the perfect religion or the "right" one.



Dan

[Pyramidsonmars]

I had this conversation with my g/f the other night. I had no idea I was with a Creationist and her entire family are creationists and believe 100% in ID. I was in shock, but my favorite part was when they ignored and denied facts like the fossil record, carbon dating, radioactive half-life, you know the usual if you have a brain and some time to look it up.
I'm angnostic to all religion and look to science as the key the everything.

Everything evolves
Evolution is a FACT of the universe people
the MECHANISM of evolution, or how evolution occurs is still just a theory.
There are 2 definitions for theory.
One, that a theory is just a guess
and two, that is a theory in that it has been reviewed ungodly amounts of times, includes major evidence and accepted by most scientists and still has to be reviewed.


It all has to do with pre-supposition. Carbon dating methods, and fossil research do not take into account the possibility (and realistic possiblitiy at that) that a global flood occured. Therefore right off the bat they don't take into concideration the chemicals in rock and mineral that would have been washed away from water. Therefore less chemicals means, to scientists, that more time must have passed, etc etc. There are fossils that have shown to be fossilized INSTANTLY. Aside from that, there have been carbon dating tests on things that are thousands, and even hundreds of years old that have shown to them to be millions or even billions of years. Creationists and evolutionists alike have the same information to deal with... hte same resources, and yet they use their pre-suppositions to come up with two different answers.

Evolution is a religion, I'm sorry. It is a religion because it, like christianity, is based on faith. There is not an ounce of proof that humanity has ever been any different. Infact, the fatal error in evolution, and it's theology is that its inevitable goal is for humanity to evolve into perfection. Not all believe this I'm sure, but a lot of people think humanity can and will save itself through our own effort and evolution. That shows me that A-even atheists know that we're somewhere we're not suppost to be spiritually, and B-that we are a creation that needs to be saved.

Evolution is a fact you say? I think you're on to something there, but I think the way we think of evolution is wrong. Without relying on what other people tell you about evolution, what about it makes sense/doesn't make sense? I know from simple observation that things seem to adapt to their environment, and that it has at times gotten to the point where adaptation requires a complete overhaul...however this "evolution" that we observe only happens when there is a requirement for it. If it's too cold, animals seem to come up with longer hair. If a small pond is slowly draining, fish might become frogs...etc.Evolution isn't however, the cause. It is rather the effect. It's only when a requirement for evolution exists that it occurs.
What reason would evolution ever possibly have that would give a creature of the Earth reason to develope thinking, or even emotions...what reason would love have to come into existence in a completely material world? What natural environment would a creature have to have in order that it would need logical thinking, rather than just instinct?
Personally, I believe we were given these things not for our time on earth, but for our time with God...knowledge, wisdom, and love were given to us in a way that we might know and love God (and of course that little bit of God that is in everyone). There is really no other reason for us to have these things.

[/QUOTE]
But it would be silly for a person to not accept Evolution and Natural Selection as certain becuase of all the evidence; unless you were a fundamentalist christian stubborn as hell to never question or re-interprete the bible as anything that isn't "right" or your local pastors interpretation.
In reality, ID(intelligent design) is just some other way that the Church controls it's people by trying to pass ID off as science, when it is just a intepretation of the Judeo-Christian bible. If you can get a mass of people to believe in 1 thing that is stone cold evidence to the mass, then the controller has power.
Dan[/QUOTE]

Why should it be expected of me to requestion my beliefs over and over again when you take what scientists tell you as unquestionable fact? Especially after all the errors we've made in our "scienctific findings" that have become known. There are many scientists that disgregard evolution, and many that don't, so even THEY don't agree with eachother. Atheistic science, which is all for evolution, is often looked at as the best way to go about doing things because it neither includes, nor excludes any single religion...but the fatal flaw is that atheism is also a religion. It's the least "religion like" on the outset because it has no doctrine, nor any single belief that would be neccessarily consistent with another atheist's belief, but it is still a "belief" in something that is unknown. Therefore evolutionists, like creationists, base their findings FIRST on what they believe to be true, secondly on what they've found.

Finding truth is an individual effort. I ask God if what I'm believing is right on a daily basis, and ask him for knowledge and wisdom that I might know HIM, not "church"...christianity is my religion yes, but just because it's a "religion" does not mean you have to have blind faith in the least in believing it. I can garuntee you I've been more critical of my faith in christianity than you

[MoonStarer420]

This was briefly mentioned before but Iâ??d like to bring this up again. Biological evolution is only a part of the total evolution of the Universe as a whole. We know how old the Earth is because we know how old the Sun is, which we know by studying the stellar evolution of stars (which is what I study and have done science in.)

You, Pyramidsonmars, have some major problems in how you think of science. It has no comparison to religion and takes no faith, only an understanding what works, what the evidence shows, and in some cases where things are headed.
I think you need to take a look at both Madagascar and Hawaii as examples of variation and evolution. Both are isolated regions in the world where species have differentiated enough from their ancestors to become new species. Especially in Hawaii where cardinals were introduced fairly recently and are already splitting off into new species. Evolution is an on going, real process (like F L E S H has said) "whether you or I believe it or not."

Also: Youâ??re wrong; very few scientists think evolution has no potential. Evolution is the only theory accepted by the scientific community. There is NO evidence showing otherwise. Science is out to explain the universe as well as itâ??s able to. Any theory or idea that doesnâ??t hold up to the scientific method is tossed out. This goes for any science in any field; physics/astronomy , chemistry, biology.

"Why should it be expected of me to requestion my beliefs over and over again when you take what scientists tell you as unquestionable fact? Especially after all the errors we've made in our "scienctific findings" that have become known."
This proves to me that you have no idea how science works. Almost nothing is static. We have current theories that will change and others that may not. It all depends on how much we know and how much we can know. Evolution is one of the theories that are not subject to much change because the evidence for it is strong. While others are very poorly understood and will require major leaps in scientific ideas in order to make any progress. Evolution is definetly not one of them.

[psychopixi]

Would a creationist like to explain dinosaur fossils, please?

[F L E S H]

Would a creationist like to explain dinosaur fossils, please?
God put them there to test our faith, of course. It's all a big divine hoax, to see if we stay the course... Makes sense, don't it?


It all has to do with pre-supposition. Carbon dating methods, and fossil research do not take into account the possibility (and realistic possiblitiy at that) that a global flood occured.

LOL. Realistic? You, out of all people, want to discuss what's realistic? The only thing that could resemble a global flood is when the last Ice Age ended and the ice caps receded about 10,000 years ago, when humans had already long achieved their present form.


Evolution is a religion, I'm sorry. It is a religion because it, like christianity, is based on faith. There is not an ounce of proof that humanity has ever been any different. Infact, the fatal error in evolution, and it's theology is that its inevitable goal is for humanity to evolve into perfection. Not all believe this I'm sure, but a lot of people think humanity can and will save itself through our own effort and evolution. That shows me that A-even atheists know that we're somewhere we're not suppost to be spiritually, and B-that we are a creation that needs to be saved.

Wow, that's a load of bullshit. No one ever speaks of "salvation" except people like you. How does that even come into the discussion? And who said we're evolving into perfection? There's no goal in evolution, no teleology whatsoever. And there is no faith either. People look around themselves, see how the world behaves, see what is left behind from life-forms millions of years old, and we draw conclusions from that. That is scientific method. No faith involved.

[beachguy in thongs]

LOL, Flesh. I knew you'd be up to Psychopixi's challenge.

[psychopixi]

LOL, Flesh. I knew you'd be up to Psychopixi's challenge.
Ah, but isn't he in favour of evolution?

[CocaCola]

Why can't someone be an Athiest and not believe in God but also be a spiritual person not bound to any standards set by religion? Taking sides is for pussies!1

[beachguy in thongs]

Ah, but isn't he in favour of evolution?
Yeah, but he can see both sides. :confused: ................. ;)

[Euphoric]

LOL, Flesh. I knew you'd be up to Psychopixi's challenge.

Try not to encourage avatars like that (FLESH). It only makes it worse. Also, this is my mandatory Reply to B.i.T. exercise. Keep it real. Yo. Wait it's you..ok..keep it freaking insane (http://www.charlesmansonfanclub.com/NOVELTY/pages/A1596RED.htm) :thumbsup:

p.s. The Decent Of Man - Charles Darwin (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/charles_darwin/descent_of_man/)

[F L E S H]

Try not to encourage avatars like that (FLESH). It only makes it worse. Also, this is my mandatory Reply to B.i.T. exercise. Keep it real. Yo. Wait it's you..ok..keep it freaking insane (http://www.charlesmansonfanclub.com/NOVELTY/pages/A1596RED.htm) :thumbsup:

p.s. The Decent Of Man - Charles Darwin (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/charles_darwin/descent_of_man/)
wow, don't talk to someone because you don't like their avatar? That's a new one...

[CocaCola]

Yeah, but he can see both sides. :confused: ................. ;)
You can't see BOTH sides, that's just crazy talk. You're either on one side or the other, man!1 ;(

[beachguy in thongs]

Evolution or Creation? I want to believe the God created Evolution, hence I'm a Creation/Evolutionist.

[CocaCola]

It's too hard to fathom our God creating Evolution. I mean, sure this can be this "Divine Plan" everyone is talking about but I think that would be just plain blasphemous. I think Evolution is a fraud created by humans and these humans have a one way ticket straight to Hell!1

[Euphoric]

It's too hard to fathom our God creating Evolution. I mean, sure this can be this "Divine Plan" everyone is talking about but I think that would be just plain blasphemous. I think Evolution is a fraud created by humans and these humans have a one way ticket straight to Hell!1

picture of hell (http://www.hawthorneterrace.com/images/chicago_metro_map.gif)

If God can create anything why would he create evolution? Why not just get to the point? :confused:

[CocaCola]

Again, another flaw in God's existence. If he could create anything then why even create anything.

I already posted this before... God is everything so why would he create anything, if he is everywhere already? He is omnipotent and omnipresent and omniscient, so WHY did you do shit?

Answer me this and I'll believe God.

BTW: Euphoric, I was saying that would be a more plausible event then just God creating everything one thing at a time.

[Pyramidsonmars]

Again, another flaw in God's existence. If he could create anything then why even create anything.

I already posted this before... God is everything so why would he create anything, if he is everywhere already? He is omnipotent and omnipresent and omniscient, so WHY did you do shit?

Answer me this and I'll believe God.

BTW: Euphoric, I was saying that would be a more plausible event then just God creating everything one thing at a time.

A question that YOU can't answer does not make anything flawed. Why would God create anything if he is everything? Think of it this way: Is an architect actually THE house he designed? No, it does not work like that. God is not sin, nor is he ever in the presence of sin. A hateful remark to God, once it is said, is no longer said to God because it is sinful; he is no longer there, he is above it, it doesn't reach him. So needless to say God is not actually everything in the sense that there are things among the "created" that have turned away from him. Why God created love for other beings to experience other than him is the question. Essentially I'm implying that God has chosen to create other "beings" to experience "good" (for whatever you take that to be), and therefore had to "set the stage", by creating the material universe as we know it. For all we know, God could have made it ANY way he wanted, and we would know it as 'normal'.

SO in the end I'm saying God is everything because it had to come from SOMEWHERE, but he is actually NOT his creation: simply where it came from.

The term 'being' is another thing I want to "trip" about. God says we're created in the image of him. God also is the only one who identifies himself as "I am" other than Jesus, therefore we are in the likeness of God, I would say, because we, unlike animals, are "beings", who account for themselves as "I", and therefore have a sense of the Good and Bad that exist. For some reason we are a fallen species, and are connected to the Bad, addicted to it if you will, and are therefore no longer in the "arms of God"

[Pyramidsonmars]

Would a creationist like to explain dinosaur fossils, please?

I'd really like to see someone do a test on the actual results of putting fossils and rock under THAT much pressure of water on the earth for that long.

[CocaCola]

A question that YOU can't answer does not make anything flawed. Why would God create anything if he is everything? Think of it this way: Is an architect actually THE house he designed? No, it does not work like that. God is not sin, nor is he ever in the presence of sin. A hateful remark to God, once it is said, is no longer said to God because it is sinful; he is no longer there, he is above it, it doesn't reach him. So needless to say God is not actually everything in the sense that there are things among the "created" that have turned away from him. Why God created love for other beings to experience other than him is the question. Essentially I'm implying that God has chosen to create other "beings" to experience "good" (for whatever you take that to be), and therefore had to "set the stage", by creating the material universe as we know it. For all we know, God could have made it ANY way he wanted, and we would know it as 'normal'.
You're good, man. You are good. Ok, so far we know that God created this material plane so that God could create other beings to place there and experience love... and according to you, may have possibly created other planes. However, that still doesn't answer my question... WHY?

WHY did God create this plane and us to experience love and life? WHY?

There is no reason is what you're saying, right? He just wants to spread the love... that crazy God.

Ok, so explain this... WHY?

Why not? Maybe that's it? Maybe God was just tired of being the only one supreme being, so he made us to ehh... I don't know... toy with? There couldn't be any other reason, I guess... otherwise there couldn't be a one supreme being, becasue he'd have no reason to be.

If you were to just say what you said in the second paragraph, I would have said I agree but is God really a being or jsut a start of something, which is what I believe.

[CocaCola]

I'm just looking for a simple answer here... none of this sin and other planes. Why did God create anything? If he is the all-knowing all-seeing all-being supreme master of everything... why did he create the universe? He wouldn't have to create anything because everything is already there, becasue he is everything. So WHY? Wouldn't it be more plausible to suggest that the universe WAS already and that God had nothing to do with it? Give me a simple answer here, man... shut me down!1 :thumbsup:

[CocaCola]

I mean, if God does exist on a higher dimension (which I am not denying), then his excuse for creating us or anything would be beyond our concept of reasoning, as we can't just create planes of existence. So why we are here can't really be answered by anyone other then God. So fuck why were we put here... because I know it's just becasue we are to live and love. To have a higher reason is to be beyond human... But is God a being or a concept of existence on higher planes? That is the question... becasue appearntly, billions of people think that their God (whatever their religion) is an actual being.

[beachguy in thongs]

Say that God created Life. It's our own fabrication that it was in his own image. So, since the beginning of time, all the various species were from that original creation. That would mean he would've been the one to fuse Carbon and Hydrogen. Accident or divine intervention, something created those elements, but as for now, they are responsible.

[Sir Les]

I'm just looking for a simple answer here... none of this sin and other planes. Why did God create anything? If he is the all-knowing all-seeing all-being supreme master of everything... why did he create the universe? He wouldn't have to create anything because everything is already there, becasue he is everything. So WHY? Wouldn't it be more plausible to suggest that the universe WAS already and that God had nothing to do with it? Give me a simple answer here, man... shut me down!1 :thumbsup:

To filter out sin from himself!...see the tree at the center of the garden?...it is the filter for God to be sinless...if we as humans remove this tree, God becomes angry...and he sent Adam and Eve into Death to restore what they have made missing in Eden...since sin brought Adam and Eve out of Eden...a sinless Adam and Eve should return it...Thus forgiveness!

[CocaCola]

My brain is actually about to pop.

It's all bullshit. It's all in our fucking imagination. I'm sick of it even thinking about that asshole. What a perfect plan, God. Loops and twists and turns and drops and holes and missing tracks, yeah, the great divine plan. What a ride that is...

[beachguy in thongs]

Keep on thinking of brilliant ways to deny Him, that will pass your time until you wait for death.

[CocaCola]

Or you can accept Him and?

[MoonStarer420]

I'd really like to see someone do a test on the actual results of putting fossils and rock under THAT much pressure of water on the earth for that long.

How deep did the water rise during this time? Was it enough to cover Mount Everest? or did it stop at the tree line?

[MoonStarer420]

How deep did the water rise during this time? Was it enough to cover Mount Everest? or did it stop at the tree line?

I'll use Mount Ararat and assume 5200m.
This means that during the flood (according to the bible) about 6.3x10^17 m^3 of exess water was on the surface of the Earth. Assuming sea level was the same before and after. This is about 1.8 times the volume of the Atlantic ocean or approx. 2/5 of the current volume of water (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/SyedQadri.shtml) on the surface of the Earth.

So either the flood wasn't of the madnitude the bible claims or the sea level before the flood was much much lower.

I did this using the volume for a sphere, the radius of the Earth, the radius plus the height of Mt. Ararat and that website for the volume of water in the oceans.

[flavour]

All you have to do is look at the poll results so far EVOLUTION BY A MILE :) . Look around you it is so obvious 2006 and years of brainwashing and you guys still aint met the guy . You would think he'd make an appearence just to shut us non-believers up would'nt ya ? Do The Evolution Baby !!!!!

[streettrash]

Even if it doesn't sound that way (I rarely sound polite) I'm not really calling anyone here stupid, and I'll admit right now that while I do know a lot about the scientific process and argument building, I can't claim I know anything for sure when it comes to the creation of life.

Evolution has NOT been proven. Anyone that claims there is undeniable proof of evolution is lying to you. Of course, any scientist should know that nothing can be proven 100 percent, so that's also not a reason to doubt evolution. There IS evidence that SUGGESTS evolution.

Creationism has NOT been proven and there is NO evidence to even suggest it, and most likely there never will be. That's not to say creationism is stupid and impossible, just that creationism is a matter of faith, not science, and cannot be proven using the scientific method. We don't have any other method of proving things yet, so until we do there will never be any proof of creationism.

OF COURSE CREATIONISM CAN EXPLAIN EVERY FLAW IN EVOLUTION. All a creationist has to say is "God did it" and they've explained it. Obviously most creationists are slightly more specific, but essentially that's what they're saying.

In my opinion creationism can't, and shouldn't be argued. There is no argument for creationism because there are no real facts that can be used in an argument for or against creationism, it goes nowhere. That's not to say creationism isn't possible (in fact, many aspects of it even seem likely to me) but it's a matter of faith and religion, not science and debate. Likewise, Evolution can't be argued as an alternative to creationism because science and faith just aren't that connected. If you're going to argue for a scientific theory, you need to argue against another scientific theory, not god.

Personally, I believe in a little of both. Being a scientist, I believe in the ability of the scientific method to find the truth, and science shows a lot of support for the basic idea around evolution, even if the whole thing is still obviously flawed. Being a human being with eyes and ears, I also can't believe life randomly bubbled out of some really old puddle and just happened to evolve into me and you, that seems a little more far fetched than god creating us in 6 days. It seems more likely that evolution is a very real thing (My uncle once told me dinosaur bones are just god trying to test us, which is complete BS, why would god lie and decieve us into thinking he wasn't real?) and it also seems likely to me that evolution didn't just happen by chance. The odds of bacteria evolving into humans, even over billions of years, is just too small. I don't doubt there was some divine presence helping it along.

[Garden Knowm]

Believing in god is like beliveing anything.. it is just a belief...
beliefs are fleeting thoughts in fleeting lives..

this does not mean there is not a god... it just means that if you believe in god.. it is nothing else other than a belief... no more powerful, no more helpful, than believeing in Santa Claus, or Gravity or the bible.

Is there a way to KNOW something?

if you are feeling immediate answers pop up to these questions,
or rebutals to others POSTS and statements..
if you are being "reactionary" then this is a clear sign that you are "in your head" or in belief mode... this is the constant state of 99% of the planet...
most people are so "reactionary" that they don't even know it..
The thought in their heads come one right after another .. with no GAP no SPACE..
They are UNCONCIOUS... if you point this out to them, they will wake up for 1 second.. and then quickly go back unconcious and become reactionary.. defending their false IDENTITY...based on their beliefs...

is there any other state...
YES
you can choose to evolve.. choose to be with "god"... you can choose to "BE"...
you can choose to take your awareness out of the mind and BE..

Your eternal self is AWARENESS... humans have pointed their awareness at their mind for so long that they have become confused and think that they are their mind.

It would be as if you were in front of your computer so much that you forgot you were a human.... it is that insane...

If you wish to see or experience a glimpse of what you really are... you will most likely have to sit in a non reactionary state. Stilness...SITTING ...

your mind will never allow you to have this glimpse of BEINIG of GOD..
no amount of praying, or going to church, or doing LSD or smoking weed... NO AmOUNT will allow you to get a glimpse.

You will have to conciously choose to evolve... You will conciously have to choose to evolve and become one with "GOD"... to beome I...

I AM..

Many people have experiences that put them
in a state of BEING...
A state of I AM..
A state of LOVE..
A state of STILL MIND...
A state in which ones awareness is not held captive by the mind.
When this expeience of I AM...LOVE.. FREEDOM... BEING... GOD... (what ever you want to call it) is over... when one once again becomes captive of the mind...

The mind will make up an explanation.. a belief... it often comes in the form of religion and people turn to god and this leads them back to their mind... away from just being.. they go back to beliefs.... belief that preserve their false IDENTITY
I AM JO BLOW, STONER, CHRITIAN, FOOTBALL PLAYER, BLAH bLAH bALJAJKHAKJHz

LOL - look at all the posts above this one.. reactions of the mind... defending a POSITION or attacking anothers position in order to solidify the ones own IDENTITY... andthe foundation of the minds identity is BELIEFS... NO BELIEF is TRUTH... belief are only relative truths....

the truth is... I AM...

LOVE
the opposite of BIRTH is DEATH
LIFE IS TIMELESS
YOU ARE LIFE
LOVE

[Danish Hashhead]

god.... GOD??? Who the hell cares?!!!

Seriously, you all need to stop contemplating things like these, you will never be wiser from it.

Anyway it really doesn't matter if there is a god, lets just hope, that if he does exsist, that none of the religions, are right about him, cuz then we're all screwed.

[Torog]

Howdy LOVElife,

I voted for God being the Creator,of course. :thumbsup:

There's been found to be some degree of fakery involved with scientists attempting to support the Darwin model--even outright fakery,why would scientists have to resort to fakery to support Darwin ?

I don't see how anyone who tokes marijuana and understands just how complex a plant it is,can believe that Nature evolved a plant that can do so much good for so many folks with different problems and needs. Why would Nature even evolve such a plant ?

I believe that God created marijuana for us to use as medicine,and that He created hemp for food,fuel,fiber and medicine too,hemp also has the ability to clean-up the enviroment,as well..why would Nature evolve such a plant ?

When I sit in my living-room and see the way that a single doobie,can help an epilectic feller,my gal with her pain and depression and me,with my bad back and arthritis,all at the same time and each of us with our different problems..it strikes me -- that only God could create such a wonderful plant,capable of helping each person with their diverse problems and ailments..how is it--that so many of y'all..don't feel that ? What have y'all done to yer souls ? Where's yer spirituality ? How can one be only half of what one is ?

Have a good one ....

[Pyramidsonmars]

How deep did the water rise during this time? Was it enough to cover Mount Everest? or did it stop at the tree line?

I THINK it says 40 feet above the tallest peak in the bible, but I could be wrong (might be 20)...needless to say a number IS given dudes...I mean that this thing is actually possible to prove. I'd really like to see some science put in to testing the flood theory...I mean a lot of it (as creationists are the only one's who believe it and therefore are the only one's who bother researching about it).

[Pyramidsonmars]

I'll use Mount Ararat and assume 5200m.
This means that during the flood (according to the bible) about 6.3x10^17 m^3 of exess water was on the surface of the Earth. Assuming sea level was the same before and after. This is about 1.8 times the volume of the Atlantic ocean or approx. 2/5 of the current volume of water (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/SyedQadri.shtml) on the surface of the Earth.

So either the flood wasn't of the madnitude the bible claims or the sea level before the flood was much much lower.

I did this using the volume for a sphere, the radius of the Earth, the radius plus the height of Mt. Ararat and that website for the volume of water in the oceans.

No law of nature is broken if you really look at the account in genesis for the way the world was origionally (genesis implies the world had a different atmosphere....."the waters were divided and the gap was called sky"...water ON the earth as well as water ABOVE it) as it would have a different climate, and not to mention different plant life pre-flood. Therefore it's feesable (if you're willing to give it a try) to assume that because there was a canopy of water above the earth at this time, and that "floodgates of the deep were opened" (water coming up from the ground-we still don't really know what's down there) that it would ammount to enough water to drown the whole earth. Not to mention the Ice Age dudes! It's accounted for if you believe in the genesis flood as well! I'm saying a lot of science goes into creationism. It's less developed and newer than evolutionism, but the SAME facts and the SAME evidence is used to argue both cases...now it can't be a matter of science, but rather a matter of science in the hands of PEOPLE.

Therefore to prove, using science, that the bible is wrong is impossible, because you can prove, using science, that the bible is right as well. Now the question is an entirely new one grounded in what you're prepared to accept as true, outside of what "fits" YOUR lifestyle. It's a question of philosophy.

[beachguy in thongs]

god.... GOD??? Who the hell cares?!!!

Seriously, you all need to stop contemplating things like these, you will never be wiser from it.

Anyway it really doesn't matter if there is a god, lets just hope, that if he does exsist, that none of the religions, are right about him, cuz then we're all screwed.
Are you ever greatful for what you have in your life? Do you thank yourself for everything that you love?

I'm not debating the existence of God, just expressing myself in a more mature manner.

[Garden Knowm]

THONGY -
i was not thankful to see the pictures of you in your chonies with you nut sack twisted up in a knot...

but my sister was....
love

[beachguy in thongs]

THONGY -
i was not thankful to see the pictures of you in your chonies with you nut sack twisted up in a knot...

but my sister was....
love
Sister??? Did you say "your sister"?

Cool.

[Funken Monken]

It's funny but there is also countless evidence FOR creation. The idea of creation however would require the teaching of religion. It's because, for some reason, religion isn't allowed to be taught to the public in our multi-culteral continent.

There have also been countless changes to the theory of evolution. New evidence is always changing old ideas, whereas creationism has remained intellectually defendable and unchanged (that is creationism according to the bible)

www.answersingenesis.org has a LOT of creationism information


Yes, but you see that website contains what can be described as 'unmitigated bollocks', non of it having been proven or to have any evidence to support, other than that completely fabricated by those of the great oxymoron, Christian Scientists

[MoonStarer420]

...assume...canopy of water above the earth at this time, and that "floodgates of the deep were opened" (water coming up from the ground-we still don't really know what's down there) that it would ammount to enough water to drown the whole earth.

When you assume your only allowed to make an Hypothisis. If you find evidence for these underground chambers, then I'd be more willing to accept theses ideas. If a lot of this water was in the atmosphere then Earth would have defenatly been a much much hotter place, for H20 is a Greenhouse gas and would absorb aserious amount of the Energy from the Sun. I guess I feel that many of the explanations (not only for this flood but for many other ideas from Creationists) lack qualitative models. All the places on the Web I've found give poor (and twisted for physics and Astronomy) answers. Not To mention I cant find a single puplished scintific paper anywhere. I mean where did all this water go? Back into the ground? It would have needed to be under pressure (or needed some other potential energy) in order to work against gravity to reach the surface. Then where would it have gone? back under water? Polar icecaps? There still seems to be many questions to be answered in order for this idea to be taken seriously.


as creationists are the only one's who believe it and therefore are the only one's who bother researching about it

I doupt this, many cultures from around the world (muiltiple sources) have incorperated a flood story into their cultures. So I don't deny it has happened but I seriously doupt it has happened to the magnitude of what you speak.

I mean were still talking only about biological evolution. It's only a part of the total evolution of our Universe. What about Hubbles constaint? The abundances of metals and Hydroden and the Big Bang? Fusion and nuclear synthesis inside of the Sun and their use to determine the age of globular clusters? The existance of Dark matter and Dark energy?
Evolution (of both the cosmos and biology) are very strongly supported by quantitative and obsrevational evidence. Not becuase Scientists want it that way but becuase the evidence points to it. Creationism will never be a solid theory because it depends on "God" who is not directly observable.

btw: " the last ice age ended about 10,000 years ago" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age) Did yours happen 5999 years ago? Or did it happen during the 6 days? I don't know too much about the Bible.

[beachguy in thongs]

Water can be lifted into the atmosphere and burnt up by the sun, it doesn't have to hide in a corner. Augh! My hands are greasy, I just ate.

[Torog]

Howdy LOVElife,

I voted for God being the Creator,of course. :thumbsup:

There's been found to be some degree of fakery involved with scientists attempting to support the Darwin model--even outright fakery,why would scientists have to resort to fakery to support Darwin ?

I don't see how anyone who tokes marijuana and understands just how complex a plant it is,can believe that Nature evolved a plant that can do so much good for so many folks with different problems and needs. Why would Nature even evolve such a plant ?

I believe that God created marijuana for us to use as medicine,and that He created hemp for food,fuel,fiber and medicine too,hemp also has the ability to clean-up the enviroment,as well..why would Nature evolve such a plant ?

When I sit in my living-room and see the way that a single doobie,can help an epilectic feller,my gal with her pain and depression and me,with my bad back and arthritis,all at the same time and each of us with our different problems..it strikes me -- that only God could create such a wonderful plant,capable of helping each person with their diverse problems and ailments..how is it--that so many of y'all..don't feel that ? What have y'all done to yer souls ? Where's yer spirituality ? How can one be only half of what one is ?

Have a good one ....
BTTT

[Shelbay]

All you have to do is look at the poll results so far EVOLUTION BY A MILE :) . Look around you it is so obvious 2006 and years of brainwashing and you guys still aint met the guy . You would think he'd make an appearence just to shut us non-believers up would'nt ya ? Do The Evolution Baby !!!!!
Like a poll on this board would convert a real christian. He will be back..alot of you on here have all the right words right now..hope you make your peace with God before he does decide to "come back".

[Funken Monken]

^^^^ 2006 years (apparently, I mean what proof is there) and counting! Nothing so far......man, I'm off to enjoy life before I'm worm food - and nothing else!

[Faultydesign]

the better poll would have been

Darwinian Evolution

or

Intelligent Design

[Funken Monken]

^^ No, as ID is fundamentally flawed as a theory (who designed the designer?) where as there mounting evidence for evolution, and Darwinian theory

[Faultydesign]

It's just that current evidence points to an intelligent designer due to irreducible complexity. Which is that all of of a system had to be there at the same time or else it wouldn't work, not that it evlolved part by part.

I'd question how the Bombadeer Bettle evolved as it mixes two chemicals in perfect ammounts with a delayed firing mechnism. If anyone of those parts are missing you have a dead beatle and dead beatles can't reproduce.

[Funken Monken]

It's just that current evidence points to an intelligent designer due to irreducible complexity. Which is that all of of a system had to be there at the same time or else it wouldn't work, not that it evlolved part by part.

I'd question how the Bombadeer Bettle evolved as it mixes two chemicals in perfect ammounts with a delayed firing mechnism. If anyone of those parts are missing you have a dead beatle and dead beatles can't reproduce.

I'd ask you to point me to the bit of extensive reseach (or current evidence)that 'points to an intelligent designer' however I think you will struggle, other than looking at non-scientific studies in this area. If there was an intelligent designer, who designed the designer? How can you have a body that designs everything...without itself having not been first designed? Paradox! Dont work dude!

And if its systems theory (lets take the works of Bertalffeny) then you are incorrect about need all parts in the first place. Consider entropy etc. Again, its a flawed arguement, however if its a key tenet to your faith that helps you sleep at night, then you go ahead believing in it.

[Faultydesign]

I'd question you to give me concrete evidence that evolution is true.

[Funken Monken]

Oh I wont, and I cant, but I can point you to several works (start with oxford.ac.uk) that would indicate an overwhelming case for evolution being correct, and works in nearly all scientific fields that would corroborate it.

As a scientist, I welcome you to prove me wrong - as thats what science is all about.

[mrdevious]

I'd question you to give me concrete evidence that evolution is true.

even if we can't find even a small piece to prove evolution, that doens't mean squat towards proving creationism.

[flavour]

Believing in god is like beliveing anything.. it is just a belief...
beliefs are fleeting thoughts in fleeting lives..

this does not mean there is not a god... it just means that if you believe in god.. it is nothing else other than a belief... no more powerful, no more helpful, than believeing in Santa Claus, or Gravity or the bible.

Is there a way to KNOW something?

if you are feeling immediate answers pop up to these questions,
or rebutals to others POSTS and statements..
if you are being "reactionary" then this is a clear sign that you are "in your head" or in belief mode... this is the constant state of 99% of the planet...
most people are so "reactionary" that they don't even know it..
The thought in their heads come one right after another .. with no GAP no SPACE..
They are UNCONCIOUS... if you point this out to them, they will wake up for 1 second.. and then quickly go back unconcious and become reactionary.. defending their false IDENTITY...based on their beliefs...

is there any other state...
YES
you can choose to evolve.. choose to be with "god"... you can choose to "BE"...
you can choose to take your awareness out of the mind and BE..

Your eternal self is AWARENESS... humans have pointed their awareness at their mind for so long that they have become confused and think that they are their mind.

It would be as if you were in front of your computer so much that you forgot you were a human.... it is that insane...

If you wish to see or experience a glimpse of what you really are... you will most likely have to sit in a non reactionary state. Stilness...SITTING ...

your mind will never allow you to have this glimpse of BEINIG of GOD..
no amount of praying, or going to church, or doing LSD or smoking weed... NO AmOUNT will allow you to get a glimpse.

You will have to conciously choose to evolve... You will conciously have to choose to evolve and become one with "GOD"... to beome I...

I AM..

Many people have experiences that put them
in a state of BEING...
A state of I AM..
A state of LOVE..
A state of STILL MIND...
A state in which ones awareness is not held captive by the mind.
When this expeience of I AM...LOVE.. FREEDOM... BEING... GOD... (what ever you want to call it) is over... when one once again becomes captive of the mind...

The mind will make up an explanation.. a belief... it often comes in the form of religion and people turn to god and this leads them back to their mind... away from just being.. they go back to beliefs.... belief that preserve their false IDENTITY
I AM JO BLOW, STONER, CHRITIAN, FOOTBALL PLAYER, BLAH bLAH bALJAJKHAKJHz

LOL - look at all the posts above this one.. reactions of the mind... defending a POSITION or attacking anothers position in order to solidify the ones own IDENTITY... andthe foundation of the minds identity is BELIEFS... NO BELIEF is TRUTH... belief are only relative truths....

the truth is... I AM...

LOVE
the opposite of BIRTH is DEATH
LIFE IS TIMELESS
YOU ARE LIFE
LOVE


Ya dont have get all techinal about it m8

[Rarrr]

My personal opinion is the darwinian theory but this isnt 100% proven and never will be (like everything else in this world, nothing is 100% proven because every person has their own perspective and will percieve differently to the next person). This is the same with religion, it's unproven. Each person interprets things in their own way (whether it be with religion or anything else). This is because of their own life experiences which has lead them to belive what they believe now so whos to say either theory is more correct than the other.

Of course we have our own opinion and it's based off things we believe (our self evidence which allows us to believe either of the theories) but to force your opinions on another is unfair because you don't know whether you would've done the same thing having been in their life.

[Pyramidsonmars]

When you assume your only allowed to make an Hypothisis. If you find evidence for these underground chambers, then I'd be more willing to accept theses ideas.

It seems more than reasonable to provide hard evidence for such a claim. This isn't something that is feesable for either side (the evolutionairy, or creationist) of the argument as no one from that time is alive today. Therefore we must also maintain this mindset when looking at both sides. (where is this "missing link" btw? The man-ape) The bible makes some sort of claim to be insight from God, and in this insight it talks about a global-flood. In describing this event, it backs this claim up with as much scientificly rational illustration as to give an accord for its own questions. Asking "where did the water come from", or "where did the water go" are questions more or less already answered elsewhere in the bible (specifically genesis). You say that I would require evidence such as underground chambers, when in reality we all know there is water under the earth; enough to provide wells, rivers, systems, circuits, and bodies. We even now do not have first hand knowlege of what is inside our earth, save what we've found in exploration of minerals.


If a lot of this water was in the atmosphere then Earth would have defenatly been a much much hotter place, for H20 is a Greenhouse gas and would absorb aserious amount of the Energy from the Sun.

You're absolutely right. I would even go further and say that our atmosphere WAS water. This could potentially explain why life was different in Noah's time (living 900+ years, etc) as things such as the sun's radiation, environmental stability, and ecosystem would be closer to that which was God-intended for mankind.

I guess I feel that many of the explanations (not only for this flood but for many other ideas from Creationists) lack qualitative models.

And evolutionists don't? The idea of evolution stems off of some form of scientific truth, we'll say, an absolute scientific truth, and therefore is feesable and (in a sense) accurate as well. Theories such as adaption, even to the point of sub-dividing a species, are probable and even provable. The conflict comes when mankind's "scientific truth" conflicts with what scientific truth I have with God (in my bible), backing it up with a series of arguments that all stem from one small untruth. Evolution's account for man's existence is therefore, to me, unbelievable in both my heart and my mind. That one small point that they missed was not a scientific point at all, but rather a spiritual one. Our carnal nature has turned us away from God, and the light, therefore we must change anything we see that would indicate that light was there.
I liken it to telling some one a story, and at some point during the beginning you leave out a small detail that you don't want that person to know. You continue to tell your story, but since you left that one detail out, you now have to leave out all the aftermath that stemmed from that one detail. Before you know it, you've had to change your story all together to account for leaving this detail out.


All the places on the Web I've found give poor (and twisted for physics and Astronomy) answers. Not To mention I cant find a single puplished scintific paper anywhere.

Yeah, all the "atheist" web pages I looked at tend to attack creationists themselves, more than their work.

I mean where did all this water go? Back into the ground? It would have needed to be under pressure (or needed some other potential energy) in order to work against gravity to reach the surface. Then where would it have gone? back under water? Polar icecaps? There still seems to be many questions to be answered in order for this idea to be taken seriously

I've responded with that exact statement (the last one in your paragraph) to many of those that support the religion of evolution. I would have to say that we do not, in our current state, know all the laws of nature (including physics), therefore we can not say what it would take to move water up or down or whatnot. The iceage is something biblically implied as aftermath of the flood. That would also change the date or our Ice Age from 10,000 years to something more along the lines of 4500BC. (How long have humans been keeping record anyway?)


I doupt this, many cultures from around the world (muiltiple sources) have incorperated a flood story into their cultures. So I don't deny it has happened but I seriously doupt it has happened to the magnitude of what you speak.

You've made it obvious that you have a mind, and i'm glad to see that :). The flood IS a legend around the world (along with dragons I might add ;))

Evolution (of both the cosmos and biology) are very strongly supported by quantitative and obsrevational evidence. Not becuase Scientists want it that way but becuase the evidence points to it. Creationism will never be a solid theory because it depends on "God" who is not directly observable.

The god in a lot of peoples heads is one of a complete human nature. We cannot invent anything without putting a little bit of ourselves into it. The God of the bible claims to be the creator of everything. That is everything. The god in our heads is one that is completely subjective. Everyone's would be a little different if that were the case. If God is an all together real thing, than obviously there is a little bit of him in ourselves. God claims to be the perfect good, and therefore by observation we can see God when we see the good that exists in every person. Likewise we see a carnal nature; one that is sinful, and at a distance from God. This is where we observe the bent-goodness we know as "bad". My claim is that God is the most observed thing, something we are constantly striving for (whether we know it as "God" or simply the "things that please us" is due to our relationship with true goodness, or our bent-goodness due to sin-something that we indulge in but is entirely un-good) Everyone has caught themselves lying to themselves at one point, almost as if one part of them were trying to shut out the other. There is obviously some natural form of schizophrenia inside all of us, a moral truth, and a carnal nature battling it out in that which we know has human morality. This is the closest we get to observing the little piece of God that we have in us as individuals.

Aside from that, we're told that it is abundantly clear through our creation; it's perfection (having even perfected death), the complexity behind it, but most importantly the "purpose" behind everything (as if each part of reality were commanded to fullfill it's task) that is a part of it. The law of light and sound, and the way these things can all ammount to something pleasing (music, color, etc) to the individual, or things such as smell, or gravity, or heat all ammount to some use for humanity. A fish might just as well have no light, or gravity, or law of thermodynamics, but it certainly lends itself in humanity's use (even survival).

btw: " the last ice age ended about 10,000 years ago" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age) Did yours happen 5999 years ago? Or did it happen during the 6 days? I don't know too much about the Bible

Given that our outlook on life is completely different from the outside worlds, this is simply as endless a debate as the topic at hand. The idea behind christianity is that we accept that the world has chosen to remain blind to the real truth...a betrayal of that truth, so it is in the christian's hands to find God's truth.

[beachguy in thongs]

Hi, I'm high.

Concrete evidence of evolution is between your fingers and toes, and in the corner of your eyes.

Where do you think the "webs" we used for swimming, and the "second-eyelid" to keep the water out, went? A little ball in the corner of our eye and disproportionate hands and feet.

[beachguy in thongs]

Crocodilians, along with birds, are the only survivors of the once-prevalent Archosauria. During the Mesozoic (245-65 million years ago) this group, including dinosaurs and other reptiles, dominated life on all continents and in the oceans. Most or all of crocodilians' adaptations had already evolved by the late Triassic (about 200 million years ago). Crocodilians are the most advanced surviving reptiles; many of their features are more similar to mammals or birds than to other reptiles.

Crocodilians' eyes are immobile spheres covered by three eyelids: the third eyelid, the nictitating membrane, is transparent, but protects the eye from water.

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Crocodilia.html

[Pyramidsonmars]

Hi, I'm high.

Concrete evidence of evolution is between your fingers and toes, and in the corner of your eyes.

Where do you think the "webs" we used for swimming, and the "second-eyelid" to keep the water out, went? A little ball in the corner of our eye and disproportionate hands and feet.

Hey dude, I'm high too (hense my 2 page essay on whatever I was talking about above...sorry if I tend to ramble :P)

On one side of the argument, you could look at the "webs" (to be honest, it takes a lot of imagination to see them as such) and the second eyelid as an argument for evolution. We obviously needed to develope these things if we were to survive in water.
On the other side of you have an argument in favor of an intellegent designer. We ARE able to survive almost anywhere on our planet, and it seems that this second eyelid (something I have only thought of when you mentioned it) and the webbing between our fingers and toes makes us properly suited for water. Why should we believe that these things needed to evolve in order to exist? Why wouldn't we just happen to be creatures (the only creatures) that can comfortably adjust between land (any) and water. Even a frog must stay where its moist.

The question isn't in the evidence, because somewhere in that evidence is a true answer, and a false answer, and obviously people are in disagreement between the two.

[Pyramidsonmars]

Crocodilians, along with birds, are the only survivors of the once-prevalent Archosauria. During the Mesozoic (245-65 million years ago) this group, including dinosaurs and other reptiles, dominated life on all continents and in the oceans. Most or all of crocodilians' adaptations had already evolved by the late Triassic (about 200 million years ago). Crocodilians are the most advanced surviving reptiles; many of their features are more similar to mammals or birds than to other reptiles.

Crocodilians' eyes are immobile spheres covered by three eyelids: the third eyelid, the nictitating membrane, is transparent, but protects the eye from water.

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Crocodilia.html

See, I think there is a lot more to learn from animals that have actually been around that long. My only quarrel with this information (other than the time lines that they propose) is that if most crocodilians had already evolved by the late Triassic period (200 million years ago) than an overwhelming amount of change should have occured since that time, wouldn't you think? Realistically humans evolved over something like 60 million years (according) into what we now are and this crocodile seems to be content with it's current state.

[beachguy in thongs]

Yes, a lot have changed. Into Humans!!! A lot haven't been fortunate enough to make genetic mistakes.

Which really gets me thinking? Maybe Crocs are God?

[beachguy in thongs]

Currently, the function of the appendix, if any, remains controversial in the field of human physiology.

Hypothesized functions for the appendix include lymphatic, exocrine, endocrine, and neuromuscular. However, most physicians and scientists believe the appendix lacks significant function, and that it exists primarily as a vestigial remnant of the larger cellulose-digesting cecum found in our herbivorous ancestors.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/vermiform+appendix

[PeopleCallMeJesus]

why cant both theories be correct, to a point. maybe god created stuff and then evolution started. that makes more sense than lightning striking primordial soup and creation life and it makes more sense than god creating the world in a couple days.

so there, i geuss you all dont have anything to argue about now that i'm right.

[bky1701]

My stance is I don't beleave ether, but I do consider most modern religions as baseless, so I said evolution. God can't make you if there is no god....

[mont974x4]

I believe in Creation but adaptation. God created everything in the beginning then species adapted for survival.

The science shown to support evolution keeps faling. carbon dating has been proven inacurate. There's no transitional fossils to support one species veoled to another.

the Bible holds up under true scientific scrutiny.

[beachguy in thongs]

Here's link to the 2005 Scientific Breakthrough Of The Year, " Evolution In Action".

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/310/5756/1878

And here's an excerpt:

All in the family
One of the most dramatic results came in September, when an international team published the genome of our closest relative, the chimpanzee. With the human genome already in hand, researchers could begin to line up chimp and human DNA and examine, one by one, the 40 million evolutionary events that separate them from us.

The genome data confirm our close kinship with chimps: We differ by only about 1% in the nucleotide bases that can be aligned between our two species, and the average protein differs by less than two amino acids. But a surprisingly large chunk of noncoding material is either inserted or deleted in the chimp as compared to the human, bringing the total difference in DNA between our two species to about 4%.

Somewhere in this catalog of difference lies the genetic blueprint for the traits that make us human: sparse body hair, upright gait, the big and creative brain. We're a long way from pinpointing the genetic underpinnings of such traits, but researchers are already zeroing in on a few genes that may affect brain and behavior. This year, several groups published evidence that natural selection has recently favored a handful of uniquely human genes expressed in the brain, including those for endorphins and a sialic acid receptor, and genes involved in microcephaly.

The hunt for human genes favored by natural selection will be sped by newly published databases from both private and public teams, which catalog the genetic variability among living people. For example, this year an international team cataloged and arranged more than a million single-nucleotide polymorphisms from four populations into the human haplotype map, or HapMap. These genetic variations are the raw material of evolution and will help reveal recent human evolutionary history.

BELOW:
Chimp champ. Clint, the chimpanzee whose genome sequence researchers published this year (CREDIT: YERKES NATIONAL PRIMATE RESEARCH CENTER)

[MoonStarer420]

The science shown to support evolution keeps faling. carbon dating has been proven inacurate. There's no transitional fossils to support one species veoled to another. the Bible holds up under true scientific scrutiny.

False False False and you've given no example of this last "point."

Where are you getting all your information? The reason why evolution has such strong support from the scientific community is because evidence supports evolution. Carbon dating is very good at determining an age range for "young" (in compairison to the age of the Universe) fossils. (http://science.howstuffworks.com/carbon-14.htm) And there are some fossils that show simularities in diffrent species of fossils. Check out the fossils of early hominids (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/).

You don't even need to see fossil records for evidence of evolution. If one species is seperated into diffrent groups, so that no genetic material can pass from one group to the other, after time they will differ enough though mutations and variation to form 2 new species. Ex: There are a few new species of Cardinals arising on Hawaii. They were introduced there after the islands were colonized.

[mrdevious]

[QUOTE]The god in a lot of peoples heads is one of a complete human nature. We cannot invent anything without putting a little bit of ourselves into it. The God of the bible claims to be the creator of everything. That is everything. The god in our heads is one that is completely subjective. Everyone's would be a little different if that were the case. If God is an all together real thing, than obviously there is a little bit of him in ourselves. God claims to be the perfect good, and therefore by observation we can see God when we see the good that exists in every person. Likewise we see a carnal nature; one that is sinful, and at a distance from God. This is where we observe the bent-goodness we know as "bad". My claim is that God is the most observed thing, something we are constantly striving for (whether we know it as "God" or simply the "things that please us" is due to our relationship with true goodness, or our bent-goodness due to sin-something that we indulge in but is entirely un-good) Everyone has caught themselves lying to themselves at one point, almost as if one part of them were trying to shut out the other. There is obviously some natural form of schizophrenia inside all of us, a moral truth, and a carnal nature battling it out in that which we know has human morality. This is the closest we get to observing the little piece of God that we have in us as individuals.

That's an imensly flawed argument. This is what's called "begging the question", in which the proposed conclusion is used as part of the explanation. you're claiming we've observed god through the nature of god within us, under the as-yet-to-be-proven assumption that the natural human state is the result of god-induced quality. There is no evidence to support that the nature of the human consciouness is the result of gods influence, other than the assumption that the claim of such conditions is true.

[streettrash]

I'd like to point out here that creationism is not truly a theory, it's a hypothesis. In order for a hypothesis to become a theory, it must stand up to scientific experiementation. Until one of you designs a scientific experiment that can test for the existence of god, creationism is just a hypothesis.

Also, just because darwinism/creationism is faulty or wrong doesn't mean the other one is right. You guys are assuming there are only two possibilities.

[siSTARindigo]

Also, just because darwinism/creationism is faulty or wrong doesn't mean the other one is right. You guys are assuming there are only two possibilities.

I agree, I was going to post here but didn't because it was so long, and there totally needs to be more possablities than that. The problem is that either possability has possablities within them. For instance, Creationsim means God created us right? So say that is what you believe but you don't believe in reincarnation, and some who believe god created us do. And just because one may believe that god created us, it doesn't mean they subscribe totally to the bible.

It is such a huge idea, not something I think any one group can ever fully understand as humans. When we die, then we will KNOW. Until then I just take what resonates with me, I don't worry about the label that has been put on it. My beliefs come from all kinds of sources, that tend to back eachother up, just in different words. And I am always open for new info to add to my growing spiritual belief system. I think it is a life long cycle. We are constantly learning new things, if we are open to seeing them.

My 2 cents anyways,

Eva

[PureEvil760]

god did not create anything..the universe was not created by a big bang or anything..it just is its hard for humans to understand there is no beginning and no end. humans were always here they will always be here for all of eternity..i know ur thinking wtf is he talking about..i know its hard to understand but its like trying to understand the real world while ur mind is trapped in the matrix..keep in mind everything i have said and will continue to say may be and probably is completely wrong..i think words could probably only explain about .0001% of reality..give or take.

[MudFu]

Evolution, God, God, Evoloution. As it really makes a difference. We are here and here we will be. (sorry for repeating words like that, wasn't trying to xD) Wither this "God" put us here or not will never be truly known. I like to blend the two. I have some faith in the idea of God. Not the Bibles point of view on God but my point of view.

Why can't it be like this? God (go along with this for a few moments before you "prove" it wrong) Created the basics of life. He/She/It left the life to fend for itself. To grow and expand on its own, and so it did. Over time it grows (evolves if you will) to the point that we are now. We still grow, and in time we will be something else. At least with this idea you can believe in God and the evoloution theroy.

Of course...Thats if you believe other of these ideas. Like pure, street, and sistar said before me, their are more possibilities. I for one do not Believe that "God" created us (because I believe God is a state of mind, an idea of hope and peace, but thats not the point right now) or that we have evolved as darwin put it. There is something we are missing, something that we just can't seem to see, or we see it but do not wish to reconize it because its very idea can change how we see the world and the universe.

Well...whatever. I might be way off here but hey its only a thought. I have no way to prove this much as any of you do. Still, its nice to wonder.

[mrdevious]

god did not create anything..the universe was not created by a big bang or anything..it just is its hard for humans to understand there is no beginning and no end. humans were always here they will always be here for all of eternity..i know ur thinking wtf is he talking about..i know its hard to understand but its like trying to understand the real world while ur mind is trapped in the matrix..keep in mind everything i have said and will continue to say may be and probably is completely wrong..i think words could probably only explain about .0001% of reality..give or take.

what in the name of Iron Maiden (was just looking at my flag) are you talking about? I'm pretty sure humans didn't walk with the dinosaurs, let alone at the beginning of our volcanic earth and before there was an earth..... um..... could you pass some of that shit?

[beachguy in thongs]

What other possibilities would there be? Either we were placed here, or grew up here.

[Stfu its Matthew]

u guys dont get it u ever here the quote '' playing god '' but what if we actually are god couse u can see us cloning sheep ect ect... making new breeds of mary jane u see this is another thing to think about when it comes to god

nd believe it or not im not stoned....Lol:p


edit: what if we were dropped on earth with amnesia and we just adapted???? man i got a bunch of these

[mrdevious]

What other possibilities would there be? Either we were placed here, or grew up here.

You're creating a false dilema argument though. just because dont' currently have a full explanation for the origins of everything, doesn't mean there isn't one. limiting ourselves to "either god put us here or we evolved" isn't going to serve us well in finding the true answers.

[mont974x4]

The fossil record does not support evolution. There is no evidence of one species evolving into another species.

Carbon dating has also been proven to be inaccurate.


As to the Bible...there are more historical texts that were written by secular authors that support the Bible as a hostorically accurate manuscript. Archeological evidence keeps proving the Bibles history of man as true.


I do think that God created everything....but there was adaptation later. This occured within a species. No species has evolved into another species.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

i wish this thread would create or evolve an end, im tired of seeing this one get bumpped lol


lessee... god's supposed to be omnipotent, so that means even if everything started by creationism, it still evolved by far beyond the begining, humans were not the begining, and werent just *poof* created, but the origonal circumstances in the begining of time were likely creation.


and even then, that was an evolution of the mind and it's omnipotency, there really is no begining, just an endless fluxuation/evolution.

in the 'begining' and 'end' it's all one demensional, inbetween is just a massive chaotic evolution of thought, life, and personality.

[PureEvil760]

mrdevious - past present and future are all one therefore humans will always be around.

[mrdevious]

mrdevious - past present and future are all one therefore humans will always be around.

personally I can't say I've been a big proponent of the existence of time. however, there are methods through relativity in which "time" can be slowed and a person can move "forward", by slowing down the speed at which subatomic particles move through excellerated velocities beyond the speed of light. But anyway, are you speaking of the Chinese cyclical time frame? It's certainly not a proven theory that could be presented as fact, but it does have validity.

[bigp1612]

The fossil record does not support evolution. There is no evidence of one species evolving into another species.
Carbon dating has also been proven to be inaccurate.
As to the Bible...there are more historical texts that were written by secular authors that support the Bible as a hostorically accurate manuscript. Archeological evidence keeps proving the Bibles history of man as true.
I do think that God created everything....but there was adaptation later. This occured within a species. No species has evolved into another species.

You couldn't be more RIGHT!!!, and what a great topic....
Micro-Evolution is legit...its the evolution of species. Macroevolution on the other hand has no proof.

"Donâ??t mistake micro-evolution for Darwinian evolution. They are not related. When a Christian says they do not believe in evolution, it is not a reference to changes in specific traits. It is a reference to changes that require crossing the DNA limitations. When the facts stare evolutionists in the face, they are reduced to either insulting those who present the evidence or they must admit their world view doesnâ??t hold water." - Eddie Snipes

[beachguy in thongs]

So, you're saying God created Animals seperate from plants, or bacteria, or He created Man seperate from horses, or flowers?

[beachguy in thongs]

This was very interesting.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/Speciation.html

[mont974x4]

I'm saying God created us all seperately. Animals of the earth, man, animals of the sea, and birds of the air. Then adpatation took over which gave us things like various breeds of dogs, for example, but only 1 type of dog was originally created.

[Myth1184]

I personally believe what I have seen!

There is actually Evidence that Evolution is accurate, fossils etc! I have yet to be shown any evidence that I believe that we all came from God in a Few Days! I mean, it's evidence against rumour!

There is no..I repeat NO evidence whatsoever to support the idea of Evolution (the view of evolution that we evolved from single cell organism)

[MoonStarer420]

There is no..I repeat NO evidence whatsoever to support the idea of Evolution (the view of evolution that we evolved from single cell organism)

Ha! There is evidence for the evolution of the Universe from the Big Bang to our current situation. Evolution is strongly supported by the entire scientific community because thatâ??s what the evidence points towards! Evidence? The cosmic microwave background, the age of globular clusters combined with their main sequence life time for nuclear burning, complete lack of blue giants in elliptical galaxies, the metal abundances in the Universe (my favorite part of this Universe is that our existence depended on the same process that is going on inside of our Sun. We are all made out of stellar ash from super novae).

I don't know as much about biological evolution but I do know that If one species is separated into different groups, so that no genetic material can pass from one group to the other, after time they will differ enough though mutations and variation to form 2 new species.

I don't understand how some creationist can accept variation and not evolution. If animals "change a little at a time" (though mutations and variation) given enough time they will develop into new animals. It has everything to do about genetics, not what you as a human classify the animals as.

If there was another model that could better explain what we observe then it would replace evolution. But nothing else even comes close. I've yet to hear either one piece of solid evidence to support any other theory or disprove evolution.

[mont974x4]

The big bang would include the theory that our galaxy is spinning and becoming wider...this is not so. We are not getting further away from the sun.

If we were wouldn't that mean that at the beginning we would have been much closer to the sun? That would mean that life could not have been here under such conditions. The sun has always been at just the right distance for life on earth.

[bigp1612]

"I don't understand how some creationist can accept variation and not evolution. If animals "change a little at a time" (though mutations and variation) given enough time they will develop into new animals. It has everything to do about genetics, not what you as a human classify the animals as."

Variation or Speciation is completely different. Speciation would be like a a dog evolving into labs, retrievers, chiuawawa (sp?), and any other variation. Even a dog growing wings and losing some other trait. The main point is that no new information is added to the dna.

Macroevolution involves taking some simple matter and eventually evolve into something much more complex. It would be like taking a normal skateboard and turning it into a helicopter. Tons of information must be added for this to happen, and it is simply not possible.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

There is no..I repeat NO evidence whatsoever to support the idea of Evolution (the view of evolution that we evolved from single cell organism)


the problem with this thread is duality.

it thrives on seperating god from reality, to say that god is not human, to say that god is not table, to say god is not oxygen.

god IS evolution, this, reality, is the evolution of god.


everything has a single, one demensional starting point; god.

the universe was created by god, but ALL life within it was a product of god's own evolution, reflected in physical bodies.


... and come on! evidence can be destroyed, every politician knows that. :D :dance:

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

The big bang would include the theory that our galaxy is spinning and becoming wider...this is not so. We are not getting further away from the sun.

If we were wouldn't that mean that at the beginning we would have been much closer to the sun? That would mean that life could not have been here under such conditions. The sun has always been at just the right distance for life on earth.


do yo uhave any clue how ignorant that was?


it's not going to take 2 years for any noticable changes in distance from the sun, let alone any distance our sun is to the center of the galaxy, which i suspect is a giant sun.

it would take some 200 eons just to notice an inch of distance!

if we sped up the speed of the galaxy, not only would it be a beautiful foreworks display, but we'd see so far beyond our god damned noses...

[MoonStarer420]

The main point is that no new information is added to the dna.

This statement proves how ignorant you are on this subject. DNA codes for proteins, these proteins build structures and these are seen as traits. Labs look diffrent then other dogs because they have diffrent DNA. But it's still close enough for them toreproduce with other kinds. Now try crossing a Chimp with a Bonobo and you wont get squat. This is because two diffrent species of apes were seperated by (I think it's the Congo) a river thus cutting off and genetic flow. Now enough time has passed that they have diverged into two diffrent species.


Macroevolution involves taking some simple matter and eventually evolve into something much more complex.

This is a complete misconception of how evolution works. Things don't necessarily have to evolve to become more complex. There is variation and mutations within a species and those better suited to their environment have a higher chance of survival. How can you say extinct species were less complex? That's bullshit. The Universe as a whole is complex and so was life as it started and evolved. Science is the only tool we can use to simplify it enough to understand it without losing sight of what may really be happening.


It would be like taking a normal skateboard and turning it into a helicopter. Tons of information must be added for this to happen, and it is simply not possible.

This analogy proves nothing, and we are all much stupider for reading this.

[MoonStarer420]

The big bang would include the theory that our galaxy is spinning and becoming wider...this is not so. We are not getting further away from the sun.

If we were wouldn't that mean that at the beginning we would have been much closer to the sun? That would mean that life could not have been here under such conditions. The sun has always been at just the right distance for life on earth.

A galaxy is not our solar system. Both are gravitationaly bound (not unwinding) but they are both infulanced by very diffrent mechinisms. Our planet was closer to the Sun (Not that much closer), but it was cooler and less luminous then it is today. The solar system was formed out of a collapsing gas/dust cloud most of that material (that stayed in the solar system) formed the Sun. The planets and other minor bodies formed out of a gas/dust torris around the Sun (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap980423.html).

Yea Stoner Shadow Wolf is right about one thing (Not about the center of the solar system being a giant sun (http://www.mpe.mpg.de/ir/GC/index.php)) "it's not going to take 2 years for any noticable changes in distance from the sun, let alone any distance our sun is to the center of the galaxy..."

I don't know where your getting the idea that our galaxy is widing from the Big Bang Theory. Our Galaxy isn't expanding away from itself, but other galaxies at significant distances (were talking a couple dozen mega parsecs here) are.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

oh, please share as to what is at the center of our galaxy, i've always wondered really.

[MoonStarer420]

oh, please share as to what is at the center of our galaxy, i've always wondered really.

We've had this discussion before. Well anyway I offered a link above. It's not just our Galaxy, in almost every other Galaxy you'll probally find a super massive Black hole. Exept in irregulars like the LMC. I'm not saying they lack BH's. Just that irregulars don't have them, just not at their centers and may not me super massive.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

ah PROBABLY doesnt cut it. my guess is as good as anyone else's, with or without an educated guess at that.


an ineducated guess could later be proven, even though the fool who guessed it was just spouting out random ideas and speculations.

but im sure that it's a black hole... hell it's likely a black hole that is filled up to the brim! lol

[MoonStarer420]

ah PROBABLY doesnt cut it.

I said Proabaly because we haven't checked out every single galaxy's center, but all the Ellipticals and Spirals we have looked at has a big old muther in the middle. I guess "big" if we are talking mass, not volume :D

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

the evolution of the galaxy...


it spins... oooh shiny... *drool*

[seedbare]

If you created for yourself the most wild far fetched explanation of the universe it would still be further out then that, those entitie's are so far beyond our understanding we would be like mere bacteria.

[beachguy in thongs]

I'm jealous. Nowhere else in the Universe is Cannabis illegal.

[seedbare]

Yeah and even though "the ships" travel at 100,000 times the speed of light there still is no damn end in sight, MY God mY god

[Euphoric]

http://www.becominghuman.org/

[MoonStarer420]

If you created for yourself the most wild far fetched explanation of the universe it would still be further out then that, those entitie's are so far beyond our understanding we would be like mere bacteria.

Compared to our size? It's so hard to get an idea of how big the Universe is, any ratio doesn't do much good.

Radius (atom)=1x10^-10 m
Height human=2m

human/atom=20,000,000,000 times larger

Distance sun to Earth=1.5x10^11 m
Distance to Center of Galaxy =3Ã?10^20 m

Distance to Galactic center/distance to sun=2,000,000,000 times further

[MoonStarer420]

Compared to our size? It's so hard to get an idea of how big the Universe is, any ratio doesn't do much good.

Radius (atom)=1x10^-10 m
Height human=2m

human/atom=20,000,000,000 times larger

Distance sun to Earth=1.5x10^11 m
Distance to Center of Galaxy =3Ã?10^20 m

Distance to Galactic center/distance to sun=2,000,000,000 times further

Ha it takes 10 times more atoms to stack up to our height then AU to just the center of our Galaxy! They're so fucking small! Mary Jane really makes you apprechiate The Universe.

[Euphoric]

I found this cool link on the transition between reptiles and mammals..

http://www.gcssepm.org/special/cuffey_05.htm

[texstang65]

had this convo so many times before...

Darwin himself made the point that Evolution works until you get down to the cellular level.

He observed that there is one part of a cell that couldn't have possibly happened by chance. The mechanism a cell uses to propel itself is an intricate outboard motor that is constructed in such a way that, in Darwin's opinion, it had to have been designed by a "Grand Engineer". By acknowleding this, he himself conceded that there must be a "higher power" be it God, aliens or whatever.

[chriscannabis]

The answer is most likley niether one of those.

[Euphoric]

had this convo so many times before...

Darwin himself made the point that Evolution works until you get down to the cellular level.

He observed that there is one part of a cell that couldn't have possibly happened by chance. The mechanism a cell uses to propel itself is an intricate outboard motor that is constructed in such a way that, in Darwin's opinion, it had to have been designed by a "Grand Engineer". By acknowleding this, he himself conceded that there must be a "higher power" be it God, aliens or whatever.

The simple and single celled organisms took a lot longer to evolve than animals. Most of the time the earth has been populated with just bacteria and alage! So, they had a much longer time to evolve those complex proteins that they use for locomotion. It may simply seem impossible because youre looking at an almost incomprehensible amount of time between virus -----> bacteria/alage

A creator god could have just helped guide evolution, without taking a totally direct approach to influencing it.

[MoonStarer420]

Darwin himself made the point that Evolution works until you get down to the cellular level.
Just keep in mind that Darwinâ??s original theory is not the same as the current theory of Evolution. He had no knowledge of DNA, and only included natural selection as the only mechanism for driving evolution. He didn't know about mutations or even why species had variation. With organic molecules so common in our Universe I think it seems quite possible for life to arise, under the right conditions, from a combination of chemistry and physics.

"The simple and single celled organisms took a lot longer to evolve than animals"
Yea really, a few billion vs. half a billion or so. (Somthing like this)

[Highness]

I prefer the idea of "adaptation" to evolution. There's tons of material out there for the pros & cons of both though. I believe in creation, but not so much a "poof" type of thing. While the Bible says that everything was created in 6 days, it also says that to God, a second is like a thousand years...I guess one would need to be a scholar in Arabic to determine the root meanings of the words to decipher what time frame it means exactly.

Also, something I've always wondered...what did a platypus evolve from? A duck and a beaver? I wonder which was the "mom" & which was the "dad".

And something else...if we're evolved from Apes, how come there aren't dog-people, cat-people, dolphin-people, etc? I know apes are smart & all, but I've seen studies where parrots out-performed chimps, so I don't know if it has much to do with the brain size.


yeah man but think about this witch came first the chicken or the egg, if it takes the chicken to have the egg then how was the first egg made or chicken if it wasnt some form of a magicall POOF. And why does everything that has a name so appropriately fit it like who in the hell came up with all the names for everything and why is it that no other name for that thing fits , its insane when you really start thinking about it. And just the fact that the entire world in its own language knows everything pretty much by the same description, go figure how we all know that its crazy.

[Highness]

ooppps forgot to give my vote on the question I believe it was both, of course stripped of all the labeling.... I feel we evolved scientifically so far till we needed this other element called spirit or metapyhsical, then we assimilated that into ourselves to evolve witch is how evolution works, its when the agreesor finally is absorbed by the absorber and the 2 things assimilate and become something new.

[willystylle]

We all come from animals and most of the time we act like animals.

God is an imaginary friend for grown-ups

[F L E S H]

We all come from animals and most of the time we act like animals.

God is an imaginary friend for grown-ups
Amen...

[paparose]

if we evolved from monkeys how come there are still monkeys on trees? how come we dont see them becoming human? Pigs and humans heart are almost identical, does it make us evolved from pigs because we have similar hearts? we did not evolve, we adopted the environment as the animals did, the stronger survived others did not.
Darwins biggets mistake is calling his theory wrong, he should said "Adoptation" not "Evolution"
Many of darwins theory were proved otherwise in our time. It is absurd to discuss this topic.
God created us, but the environment kept changing so did we and the animals.

[paparose]

We all come from animals and most of the time we act like animals.

God is an imaginary friend for grown-ups

no we dont act like animals, we are worst then them. Animals dont kill for fun we do.
Dont count me in I did not come from animals

[mrdevious]

if we evolved from monkeys how come there are still monkeys on trees?

This has already been answered countless times all over these forums. We didn't come from monkeys, monkey's share a common ancestor, along with 98.5% of our genetic code.


Pigs and humans heart are almost identical, does it make us evolved from pigs because we have similar hearts? we did not evolve, we adopted the environment as the animals did, the stronger survived others did not.
Darwins biggets mistake is calling his theory wrong, he should said "Adoptation" not "Evolution"

"Adaptation" is the word you're looking for.


Many of darwins theory were proved otherwise in our time. It is absurd to discuss this topic.

Darwin isn't the soul developer of evolution. And just because you declare an opinion absurd doesn't prove it so and end the discussion. If you want absurd, try defending creation, considering every argument I've ever heard for it has utterly flawed logic.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

personally, i believe humans are the result of combinations of animals... seeing as we share a lot of the characteristics of many animals, i would assume that there were more factors influencing the developement of the human evolution thatn just monkies and apes.

not entirely sure how to explain it... and i dont really see how it is logical, considering pigs dont mate with iguanas who dont mate with gorillas...

but what if there is more to evolution than just the genetics? perhaps the blood of another animal could have preverse enough effects to affect the children that animal bears? i mean... wolves eat deer, what if the blood of the deer being ingested by the wolf can affect the wolf's children over mellenia to be born with antlers? well not nessacarily WITH them, but with the capacity for them to develope (jackalope anyone?).


overall, i still say evolution is like AI for god... a sort of way of keeping us in check or some such... hey, im not awake yet... i shouldnt be thinking about this stuff.

[likemclever]

I believe God created Drawin

[stone eng]

Just one or two points:

It's been a LONG time since I've had thermodynamics, but either the second or third law states that the complexity of a system does not increase without outside intervention.

Macroevolution postulates that over the years oraganisms climbed the ladder to more and more complex organisms randomly.

It would be likened to a refrigerator which pumps heat from a colder environment to a warmer one, without work/ or design from an outside system. Would anyone believe in that?

[Lucifuge]

Man created god(s) out of his imagination and lack of understanding of the universe.

â?¢ There never was just one Christianity. Out of the milieu of religiosity that infected the Roman world, dozens of competing and conflicting Jesus/Sun-god/Mystery cults emerged.

â?¢ Nothing in the 'Christian message' was original. It was a vulgarised paganism, debased by religious intolerance. The early Christian sects attacked each other as energetically as they attacked pagans.

â?¢ The composite 'Jesus Christ' character â?? god, man, king, carpenter, conqueror, peace-maker, dispenser of justice, advocate of love â?? was assembled to try and unify a fragmented and fractious messianic religious movement.

â?¢ The first believers in Jesus maintained he was an ethereal spirit, much like other sky/sun-gods. Only later did he acquire a human death, a human life and finally a human birth.

â?¢ The original Mary was not a virgin. The idea was borrowed from pagan goddesses.

â?¢ The barbarian tribes that overran the weakened Roman Empire were, for the most part, Christianized; the forces that opposed them, pagan.

â?¢ The Church expropriated the resources â?? both human and material â?? which might have defended Roman civilization. While an indolent army of clerics lived on the state, the impoverished legions degenerated into a peasant militia.

â?¢ Once a particular Christianity â?? hierarchical and authoritarian â?? became wedded to the Roman state, it became a force of brutal repression. This so-called 'orthodoxy' suppressed and persecuted its 'heretical' opposition.

â?¢ A triumphant Christianity was the active agent in destroying knowledge and access to learning. An ignorant and impoverished population was more readily subjugated by Princes of the Church.

http://jesusneverexisted.com/

[orangeman]

Wish you could change the second option, it makes me seem like I'm crazy..but I believe in God and I know he exsists. You guys need to watch The History Channel, you cant miss it. I think their showing Armageddon stuff until 6/6/06

[Kush Over]

God begets Chaos; Chaos begets Life.

[Krogith]

Simple fact is..... if everything and all of exsistance can come from NOTHING (that means no atoms no antimatter NOTHING) and you think that some how that proves that it could not just as easy be CREATED by something allways there? YOUR PROF that god does not exsist could explane why he does just the same....

HENCE WORDS WORDS WORDS....
But what we do understand that in this Life (world we have and still live in) that all that have come into and become powerful have crupted ( goverment , religion,all the companys anyone comming into power) and even this so called USA goverment is thinking of taking our rights away and wants WAR and OIL all GREED!

This is the 1st time in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD that mankind is a world order! the INTERNET has changed us no longer are we all not conected. If god was trying to prove SATAN wrong this world and whats comming will PROVE once and forall not even all of conected mankind can fix our problems. IF NOWS NOT ARAMEGEDON (the deciding factor that says satan has finaly proved himself FULLY WRONG) than your all right we came from nothing and will go back to nothing from wich we came.....

I chose to look at whats happening and can see this world today will FAIL

[msactech1]

It takes a lot of faith to believe the earth came from nothing, a puddle of water came from nowhere, a thing crawled out of the puddle, found some food to eat from nothing, and found a mate from nowhere to reproduce.

Takes more common sense than faith to say someone put it there. I guess some people believe everything they hear from school or on t.v. The word pre-history is less than 150 years old because it is a new idea to a new religion called evolution. It is a religion to beleive something that has no facts to support it.

In order for something to be classified as scientific you have to have a theory, perform and expiriment or test, and you must come up with a conclusion. A theory is not science and should not be included in the testbooks. They are using the schools and t.v. to promote thier religion, and everybody is buying into it.

I can't explain why false religion is easier to except than the truth. I guess it's the same reason why marijuana is illegal. People will believe anything the goverment or t.v. says. :thumbsup:

[MoonStarer420]

In order for something to be classified as scientific you have to have a theory, perform and expiriment or test, and you must come up with a conclusion. A theory is not science and should not be included in the testbooks.

Theories are science; I don't know where you get definition. Plus you seem to have contradicted yourself, unless I misunderstood what you wrote. The scientific method is only one tool of science and there are other ways to gain information on our Universe.

As for Evolution, maybe you should read up the idea about where the Earth came from. It certainly isn't from nothing. It's linked to the Big Bang, galaxy formation, star formation, the formation of elements inside of stars, the evolution of stars, super novae, gravity, chemistry, and a lot more. And all of these objects are studied using observations and models, not always using the scientific method.

It's not that scientists have a belief in evolution; it's currently the best theory that fits the observations (Very nicely as well.) If another idea came along that was even better scientists would throw out evolution and put that theory as number one instead. (I use the term â??throw outâ?� loosely, for it does take time for new theories to become well accepted)
No religion (that I know of) come close to anything like this.

[Krogith]

ROFL so everything came from nothing? So you think that all of a sudden a atom formed ? out of no where a atom came to be with the code of the universe and all of a sudden it exploded and made everything? and you think im crazy for saying that just the same, God came from no where and made it? just the fact that you can belive an atom came from nothing i'd rather to have god come from nothing. Somehow everything liveing that we know of billions and billions of creatures all came from some big exploshion! So after we Nuked Japan did we create life? big bang.... lol

[skarz]

How do you know life is nothing more then an illusion?

[msactech1]

Sometimes I wish life was an illusion.
I have read up on evolution. I went to school, too. What I am saying is that evolution is not a fact backed up by physical evidence. It is a theory that people choose to put thier faith into. It is a bunch of ideas built up to support an idea. It is a religion. Some people choose Jesus, some Budda, some Alah, some evolutionist, ect.
If you want to believe in evolution, that is your right, but as often as I see offensive comments about my beliefs, I have to be honest. It's the stupidest idea I've ever heard of.
I like to respect others beliefs and way of life, but everytime I see a person say something positive about Christainity someone else knocks it down. Why should I speak respectable things about other religions when all you people do is curse Christianity. I would be willing to respect everyone's beliefs if everyone would agree to respect my form of Christianity.
It's human nature to hide from God. The first thing Adam and Eve did when thier eyes were opened was go and hide from God. That's all evolution is. A place to try to hide from God. Good luck with that.
I'd be more willing to keep my ideas about evolution off this website, but I don't see the fairness when every thread I open, somebodies putting down Christianity.
I can agree with somethings. I do not agree with bible thumpers who try to portray God as a fire breathing tyrant. He is Love, Life, and Creator. You must understand that most people who claim Christianity are selling a nazi communist version of Christianity. According to my Bible I am free from the laws of sin and death. There is no condemnation for those who follow Christ, the only true God. :thumbsup:

[skarz]

I'm not saying I do think life is only an illusion... but it's a possibility and no one really can say what life is or isn't. Religion was created by man and whatever religion you choose you are not right or wrong, there are no right and wrongs with religion. Nothing can be proven, it's all opinion/faith based, you can not argue one is better then the other.

Religions are fucking complicated

[Az.]

How do you know life is nothing more then an illusion?

you dont....nothing can be proved so we dont actually know anything about anything....

""Descartes was writing one evening in his room, and he thought to himself (paraphrasing very loosely): What if I am asleep in bed right now, and only dreaming that I am awake, and writing? Isn't that at least possible? Then he said, well surely, I can tell when I am awake and when I am asleep. I can tell the difference between wakefulness and a dream. All sorts of strange things happen in dreams; I pass unaccountably from scene to scene when I'm dreaming; I don't have any long memory of what happened in a day, when I'm dreaming; and so forth. Then Descartes said: Haven't I had those very thoughts in some of my dreams? Sometimes, when I was dreaming, I was convinced that I was awake! I even tried to test that I was awake, when I was dreaming, and the tests convinced me that I was awake! But I was wrong; I was dreaming. Isn't it quite possible that the same thing is happening to me right now? Isn't it possible that I am dreaming that I can test whether I'm awake or asleep -- and of course, in my dream, I pass the test? So it seems really vivid to me right now that I'm awake -- but in fact, I'm asleep?

Well, Descartes said to himself, I guess there aren't any definite signs, or tests, that I could use to tell whether I'm asleep or dreaming. I could, after all, be dreaming those very tests. I have experience of doing that, thinking that I passed the test for being awake, when really I was only dreaming. So there isn't any way to tell that I am awake now. I cannot possibly prove that I am awake. So, Descartes said to himself, I don't really know that I am awake now and writing in the evening. For all I really know, I could be asleep. That's Descartes' dreaming doubt.""
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism)

Read that page on wikipedia....it's really quite interesting.....but I think I think too much about things like this!!

I just noticed that you said nothing cn be proved....i agree....you also said it's down to perception.....but how can you be sure what you are percieving is real? It could be anything.....

My head is sooooo confused about shit like this....not to the point where it effects my life but just enough that I can't even comprehend what the fuck im thinking of......hahaha maybe it's just the weed!!

[msactech1]

My words fall on deaf ears...
...or is it willingly ignorant?
If I said I know a book that is two thousand years old that says you would be here saying what you said, would you believe me, then? We have so much knowledge in the world today and so many fools full of knowledge. Could it be that all this knowledge is worthless without wisdom? You don't even know if you are real or not. Of course you are real, you just don't have a clue where the hell you came from or where you'll be after this life. Or do you, but just chose to reject wisdom?
May I quote from that book I mentioned earlier?
<2Peter 3:3-18>
<3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b]That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.>

If this offends you, I'm sorry. Most people are dissapointed when they hear the truth. This should not enrage anybody because I am obviously out numbered, here.
I came here to read about my other passion, marijuana. I just think that it's so rediculous that I constantly hear people complaining that thier religion has people insulting it, while at the same time they insult my religion. I'm not Republican. They're liars. They say they are Christian and then take all your rights. I'm for religious freedom. Why can't people find some other religion to bash besides Christianity?
:thumbsup:

[msactech1]

I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers. When I get tired of this, I'll go away so we can be at peace with each other. Be nice if we could meet and smoke a big ass fatty together. I think we'd have a deeper respect for each other, then. It's easy to insult each other or feel insulted when we're just words on a page. I just hope you can understand that true Christians are not the ones trying to take you're freedom. The ones that are, they are either liars are following the liars.
Let's try to be at peace. Stop bashing my faith and you'd never heard from me. My friends have different beliefs than me. That's fine, we just have to find some other subject to relate. So, you can speak nicely of my beliefs understanding that I'm not out to get you. I want my freedom and people to respectfully allow me to live my life, just like you. I can't help it if the majority of the world follows Christianity out of popularity. They are not with me.:thumbsup:

[skarz]

I understand where you're coming from msactech1, but just because it was written in a book ages ago doesn't mean it is right. There is no way to determine right or wrong, it's all based on belief and the reason christianity has spread so far is mainly because it was forced on a lot of cultures and now it is common worldwide. I'm not bashing christians at all, their choice is their choice, I live in a family of christians. The fact is a book doesn't justify one group saying their right and someone else's beliefs aren't just because this book says so.

[Jeff Spicoli]

no such thing as god, and jesus isn't really the son of "god". all made up hocus pocus. evolution, it's common sense

[msactech1]

I'm sorry that you are wrong. I hope that one day your eyes will be opened to the Truth. Untill then we can just be bud buddies.
I think I'm about done with this thread. I'm not going to argue. There is no way anybody could change my mind. You might as well tell me my weed is pink. I have experienced God's work in my life and will not accept any other explanation. Another reason is so you won't think I'm trying to force you to believe me. One of my main points I'm trying to make is that I respect people's rights to choose for themselves. I do not bash the religions of my friends because they allow me to freely view life as I see it. I try to avoid insulting anyone about thier ethnic background, religion, ect. I even strive to accept gay people. Jesus taught me not to judge people or look down on them.
I am even supposed to love my enemy. Hard to do because I can't think of any, but if I do get an enemy I will try to remember to love him.
Anyways good to meet your writings. Hopefully some of yall know a lot about weed. I will see you again, than, in the other threads. I will try to resist the temptation, but if I post again in this thread, I just couldn't help myself.
Peace out.

Msactech1 a.k.a. JesusMadePot

[skarz]

I don't think Jesus made pot, I think God would've made it far before Jesus did.

[msactech1]

Jesus was God incarnate. To be in Israel in those days and claim to be the Son of God would of been the same as claiming to be equal to God. He revealed Himself throughout the old and mostly the new testement as God.
The Bible says the Spirit created the earth. The Spirit is the power and presence of God. That is the same power Jesus the Christ used to heal and do miracles. It is also the reserection power that raised Him from death. Jesus had this power because He was God incarnate. He became man so He could die and defeat the laws of sin and death because only a person who lived a perfect life could do that. No man is perfect, so He chose to become a man to die and pay the penalty for sin. He just doesn't force you to accept the gift He gave when He died. You are allowed to reject Him. He doesn't force it, so niether do I. I'm just honest and open about it.
What I am saying is that there is only one God. We call Him triune because He revealed Himself to man as God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Son. Same God but in three different forms. That is why I believe Jesus is God the Creator. It says He created all the plants, pot included. I believe pot is a sacred medicine. It's not for everybody, but it is good for me.
I couldn't help it. I just wanted to answer your question so you would see where I was coming from. No harm intended. Thank you for listening.
I hope that clarified things cuzz I'm really :stoned:

[skarz]

I think i know what you're saying... but isn't "God" the creator of everything?I understand that when Jesus came to earth or w/e that was god in a physical living form... but since God created everything doesn't that mean he created weed, not Jesus? (Even though they are the same being, God came before Jesus)

[msactech1]

Yes, I believe God created everything. It was also the same God that became a little human baby, destined to die for mankind. He wasn't given the name Jesus until He was a child. So, before He came to earth and lived a life as Jesus, He created the earth and weed. At the time He created everything, He had not been born a man or recieved the name Jesus.
I believe that when I die, God will give me a new name. Even though I don't know what it is, it is still 'my name'. The same as Him. He wasn't named Jesus, yet, but He was destined to recieve that name. So, Jesus created everything before He bacame a man or recieved the name Jesus.
Now He has already come to earth and left. The only way a man can know God is by knowing Jesus. By becoming man, we are better able to understand God's personality. A man just isn't able to comprehend God unless He stoops down to man's level. Man met God face to face, and wrote about it so we would know what God was like. Because I am human, it helps me to look at God through Jesus so I can understand His personality, a little better.

[sackojaweedya]

You doubters are forgetting the root of Christianity...FAITH. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. Turn away from your scientific approach for just a moment and pray. Reach out to God. Faith is not something that is tangible for you to pick up and examine under a microscope. God is within you whether you think so or not. Its now up to you to find him and establish a relationship.

[mrdevious]

You doubters are forgetting the root of Christianity...FAITH. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. Turn away from your scientific approach for just a moment and pray. Reach out to God. Faith is not something that is tangible for you to pick up and examine under a microscope. God is within you whether you think so or not. Its now up to you to find him and establish a relationship.

Faith is a lot of atheist's biggest problem. What better system to keep people convinced than one where you believe based on nothing? Don't believe because we have evidence, don't believe because it's logical, just believe because you should. When a belief is based on accepting something for no other reason than belief in itself, I'm going to start asking questions. "faith" is nothing more than a convenient system to make sure nobody asks questions when a claim can't hold up against scrutiny.

[skarz]

The doubters don't have to turn to god though.... there are hundreds of religions out there, christianity definetely isn't for everyone. You don't even have to follow organized religion... you can be completely spiritual without ever following a religion.

[harmonicminor]

How do you know life is nothing more then an illusion?

you got it there
In the Book "The Holographic Reality" it tells about a lot of different scientific observations that fall into the unexplainable catagory. All of these facts do point toward the holographic reality theory being true. It tells about Einstiens thoeries, Steven Hawkings, Quantum physics, different psyciatric examinations, hospital and the paranormal ect.
For example there was people with split personalities that had one personality that was perfectly healthy untill the other personality took over that had cancer really bad. The one with the cancer had huge tumors all over the body and when the healthy personality took over the tumors just vanished instantly. This happened all the time to this person and was well documented.
People on acid under experiments have demonstrated telepathy.
Scientists have found that atoms, no matter how far can communicate with another instantly.
They have just found out how to reverse light.
Science still learns new things all the time
they still havent proven how thought is formed

If you have ever had a breakthrough with Salvia or ahyuasca you will know there are other dimensions on top of ours with other beings that inhabit them.

[mrdevious]

you got it there
In the Book "The Holographic Reality" it tells about a lot of different scientific observations that fall into the unexplainable catagory. All of these facts do point toward the holographic reality theory being true. It tells about Einstiens thoeries, Steven Hawkings, Quantum physics, different psyciatric examinations, hospital and the paranormal ect.
For example there was people with split personalities that had one personality that was perfectly healthy untill the other personality took over that had cancer really bad. The one with the cancer had huge tumors all over the body and when the healthy personality took over the tumors just vanished instantly. This happened all the time to this person and was well documented.
People on acid under experiments have demonstrated telepathy.
Scientists have found that atoms, no matter how far can communicate with another instantly.
They have just found out how to reverse light.
Science still learns new things all the time
they still havent proven how thought is formed

If you have ever had a breakthrough with Salvia or ahyuasca you will know there are other dimensions on top of ours with other beings that inhabit them.

Funny you should say that. Last time I did salvia I felt like there were these streams of consciousness pulling me different ways, and every stream was its own conscious entity. I remember when one suddenly losened its grip and the other started taking me with it, and I could recognize each being without giving them a name or title, and at the time I understood so clearly that it was so interesting that so-and-so had released me to other so-and-so. I understood the significance, but that part is unfortunately gone now. I don't know what to make of it.

[Ganjasaurusrex]

Evolution or God?

What if we evolved by Gods will?

[harmonicminor]

here we go
this will show you guys what happened

http://www.wimp.com/bigbang/

[skarz]

I don't think anyone is right.... or that anyone is wrong for that matter. We can all speculate and voice our beliefs, but deep down, we don't know if we're right. Not to offend any religious folk here, but you can not prove god, beyond belief, and beliefs can't be proven it's just something you have to put your heart into and go with. Same with evolution, big bang, etc... it can't be scientifically proven yet, no one really KNOWS what's happening it's all speculation.

I do have one question for those who know religion though because I'm still trying to learn more about it.

- How do you explain dinosaur fossils millions of years old
- If Adam and Eve were the 2 ppl who started reproducing, how does that explain so many different ethnic groups.

[enthused]

I believe in evolution. I also believe in some sort of higher power. I don't think it's a dude who died for our sins or whatever. More of a universal observer I guess.

[MoonStarer420]

What I am saying is that evolution is not a fact backed up by physical evidence. It is a theory that people choose to put thier faith into. It is a bunch of ideas built up to support an idea.

What you donâ??t understand is that evolution is a theory to explain the physical evidence. The same process they used to develop this theory is the same as the path taken in the development of any other scientific or technological field.

I guess I'm confused about what you say "evolutionists" believe in. I see plenty of physical evidence; vestigial organs, DNA similarities, the types of fossils in different sediment layers, mutation of viruses and bacterial, the ability for animals to adapt to new environments (these are the only ones I can think of.) All of these fit nicely into the theory of Evolution and that is why I "believe" in it.

It shouldnâ??t be a competition between religion and science; theories in science are not the same as the ideas in a belief structure. One is an understanding of both the physical and ideas, and the other is all faith.

[MoonStarer420]

I guess I should add that the theories are never 100% correct, they exist to explain the bare minimum. Reality will always be infinatly more complex. Ex: fluid dynamics and steallar models.

[420mory]

For me it's really the same thing.
i've been getting really pissed at religion the last few days, actually since i saw the (not very interesting) film Da Vince Code. People are so underdeveloped, still. Killing for god. Absurdity.
Sad, sad little planet. Could (can) be so nice! ;)

[IronLung]

The whole theory of evolution would be destroyed if a fossil were found from the precambian period. A fossil found from that time would prove that life forms inhabited the Earth from the beginning, which the Holy Bible states. Humans could not peacefully coexist with dinosaurs. Dinosaurs would eliminate any sign of the human race. Not only that, dinosaurs were wiped out from some worldwide disaster. Wouldn't homo sapiens die too? Belief of a God just doesn't make sense to me. How many religions are there? Hundreds, maybe thousands of them. People constantly wonder about and strive to find their origin. Hundreds of years ago people had basically no technology or accurate scientific instruments. They used their imagination. Therefore, a God came into play. Ancient civilization had no police to keep order. They wrote a book "from their God" and his expectations to put fear into the people. YOU GO AGAINST YOUR GOD AND YOU SHALL PERISH!!! It's just a way to keep civilians in line. Since they were so curious about who created them, they believed all that nonsense. If you had no scientific knowledge, you would believe anything as well. Do you get my drift? Religion spread across the world and evolved, and this is where we are today. A brainwashed society filled with curiosity on fallacy. You can believe a book full of miracle stories and odd creatures, or you can believe a skeletal fossil and scientific evidence. It's your choice.

[spleafer]

Evolution is a fact, as is some sort of big event that happened to create the universe around 13 billion years ago. However, no one knows what happened just before that big event. It requires a singularity, where all the matter in the universe was compressed into a point that was infinitely small. All science can tell is what happened just after this big event. God fits neatly into the space just beforehand, in my opinion.

[420mory]

I've never seen god as some kind of figure, but then again... what is god?

God= universal conscience, WE, US, all ONE?
God= the 70% of our brain that we don't know how to use?
God= the universe, the cells, our body, a mathematical equation?

[braddog100]

First, to disprove your ignorance on the dark ages.

The Middle Ages is a stretch of a thousand years called mediæval and feudal, words that are like the word dinosaurâ??they are used pejoratively. They mean backward, barbaric, primitive or, at the least, old fashionedâ??the antithesis of our clever and sophisticated modern times. The reason is that in that thousand years, crime, vice, violence, drunkenness, disease, mortality, brutality, exploitation and injustice were immeasurably worse than before or after. Yet, they are the time when the church was at its most powerful, when cathedrals were built, bishops lived in palaces and many of the male population were churchmenâ??monks, priests, bishops, friars, templars, hospitallers, priors, lay brothers.

k.

We are living in an age when ignorant Christian mobs are once again trying to replace science and knowledge with religious rituals. If we donâ??t learn from history, they will again throw us into another 1,000-year period of â??The Dark Agesâ?�.


pointing out that socialy, and politically, society was religious is true. You do understand the danger of a religious society, however you are very confused to say ~ that time was the hieght of the chuch age.

That period was a deteriorated condition, of the religious society that Jesus himself criticized.

Jesus hated religion with a perfect hatred, It was an outward form (denying the sickness on the inside), it is pushy, judgemental. Religion is the Antithesis
of true faith and relationship with God.

Oh by the way, scientist have acknowleged that evolution is impossible.
A single cell is irreducible, an absence of any of the thousands of chemical interactions, would render it lifeless.

To think it just gradually came together with all these things present.???
Would be dishonest.

It has been the only theorum that science had embraced that denies the laws of thermal dynamics. Systems move toward disorder rather than order.

You are just pissed at ~ basically the same thing Jesus was.
Maybe you should reexamine your logic for blaming God.

God aged this earth perfectly within just the first few reported days in Gen Ch:1 something else stupid human logic tries to figure out,
We have all done this. These insites are what make up true epiphones.

I hope I have many more.

[F L E S H]

Oh by the way, scientist have acknowleged that evolution is impossible.
A single cell is irreducible, an absence of any of the thousands of chemical interactions, would render it lifeless.

That the second time you say that... Which scientist are you talking about? I read some stuff on the subject, and I have yet to encounter a real scientist, not a religious pseudo-scientist, who does not believe in evolution. If you're so sure about yourself, instead of saying "scientists", give some names.

[braddog100]

I would suggest a search for Thomas Sharp. An naturalist, scientist, researcher.

Athiest, will no longer debate him. His knowledge and handle on facts rather than swallowing what the athiest intellectual elite have aspoused,...
They have no answer for.

Also, as he has pointed out, even the scientist, predisposed to athiesm,
is haveing to acknowledge the fact that a single cell could not have just occured. Come on! It's too complex.

Those that have had some need to deny God, His rightfull place, has relegated themselves to far out streches of logic ~ the need to believe, to the extent that
They are then blinded to truth.

This is not the only major problem with evolution.

I'm not here to jab at the athiest. at this site, I am just dismayed at the constant jabs here against God and some of those that believe.

I've dealt with chronic pain, and interestingly enough, web MD ~posted a letter Re the benefits of med. weed. just learning to understand more about this. that's all... abadee.. abadee.. abadee.. Thats' all Folks!!!
Brad

[chriscannabis]

I don't believe either of them. The universe is far too big and unknown for us to have even an idea of what the fuck is going on. Theories are great and all, but I've been doing philisophical studies for almost 25 years, and answers to questions about the universe are nonexistant at the moment.

It's great to share your ideas and theories, but that's all they are, so speak as if you're contributing to the massive number of theories that are all as likley as the next, and not as if you're correct. The universe is a place of infinite possibility currently, and we are in no shape or form to assume command of such knowledge and understanding.

[MoonStarer420]

The universe is a place of infinite possibility currently, and we are in no shape or form to assume command of such knowledge and understanding.

But that is what makes physics and other sciences so great! We can predict future events because the phyical models are very precise to the "real world" events. We can predict planet locations hundreds of years into the future, we use it to make all of our moderen technology. I admit, science does nothing to solve the "why", but kills with the "how".

[chriscannabis]

Yep, "why" is where things get complicated. Maybe we're jus tscratching the surface and our current scientific discoveries are part of a much bigger and whole picture.

[yoda]

I can't believe some people believe that all matter and energy just somehow manages to exist in a very orderly fashion WITHOUT something beyond this phyiscal materialistic reality fashioning and guiding it (aka God)

you see, i dont believe in god, i believe in something, i just dont know what it is. something HAD to of created planets, the sun, the concept of life....

but i believe the 'r'evolution has started...

[braddog100]

Great Thread

I appreciate the honest thoughts expressed here.

Something to really think about is the fact that the bottom fossil record is believed to be found. All major animals have two eyes two ears.

Horses were horses though smaller etc...
two ears give us the ability to detect where sound came from.(very critical especially in early times).

Two eyes gives us the ability to detect distances. also very critical.
The fact that obvious design was clearly set from the earliest fossil records,
should make us all truely concider thoughtfully about a designer.

Sure there are going to be adaptations, certain colored moths being removed due to the fact that their color did not acomodate camoflage, with their environment.

Ok.. Ok so the playground was put next to the sewage plant.... laughing.

Look, I'm a Christian, thats probably obvious, but "The Book" that I respect says that creation displays the glory of God ~ where no man has an excuse.

Have you asked him to reveal himself to you?.... honestly?

Thanks for your time,.... Brad

[chriscannabis]

The thing is, nothing is impossible. I know when the your kindergarden teachers told you that, you said" Well if you jump off a cliff with no hang glider or jet pack, you're fucked right?" Wrong. The universe is full of infinite possibilities that are only limited by your imagination.

We can do either of two things. Continue on our current path, where humanity is divided, the rise and fall of nations. We can unite under one banner for the good of humanity as a whole. After that we have two more sub-choices if you will. You can either assume, or you can go out and learn and find out for yourself what the truth really is, or at least try. No one is anymore right than anyone else, and speaking as though you are the above is ignorant.

This post is quite hypocritical, because i'm talking in the same way, so let's just say we'll put a maybe before all my factual sentences. We can either assume and wait for the truth if it ever comes, or we can go to it, it's all up to you.

Instead of learning recycled and used knowledge and using that as an example, go out and learn for yourself. People think differently than others, so learning it for yourself in your own way reveals more questions than just learning straight facts. You won't find any answers this way, but it'll make you more open about this kind of thing.

[mrdevious]

You can either assume, or you can go out and learn and find out for yourself what the truth really is, or at least try. No one is anymore right than anyone else, and speaking as though you are the above is ignorant.



This I can strongly agree with. Nobody has the magical, universal, all-perfect eternal truth. All you can do is spend your life learning as much of the truth as you can, but understanding it all is not yet possible by anybody.

[Sir Les]

This I can strongly agree with. Nobody has the magical, universal, all-perfect eternal truth. All you can do is spend your life learning as much of the truth as you can, but understanding it all is not yet possible by anybody.

If you don't know the truth, how can one find the truth?

That is why God said he will write it in our hearts and in our minds!
So the truth comes from with in!...Seek God, and honor God by doing his will, which is the righteous thing to do!
"Tend and Keep the garden" is a logical truth!
God gave us everything...so don't let them take away or sell you your rights to everything God gave!

Marijuana is a important part of the garden principle, it is up to those who are willing, to restore Marijuana to its rightful place, and let it be what it is, for a time of restoration of the planets health care!

[mrdevious]

If you don't know the truth, how can one find the truth?



If we don't know the cure for cancer, how can we find it? I don't know, but I imagine we will eventually.

[420mory]

I got an advise to read this book from a friend: God's Debris

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf

It's a conversation between the All Knowing and a normal someone. Anyone read it? I will soon.