HPS vs. Induction + CFL flowering comparison

[vanduction]

Hi, this week I will be starting a comparison grow between HPS and Induction lighting.

Question: Can induction lighting produce the same flowering performance as HPS lighting, while using 50% or less watts?

The goal is NOT any of:
- examine veg growth
- produce maximum yield
- try any other kind of experimentation

Methodology:

Manufacture 2 identical growing cabinets. The only difference is the lamps installed in each cabinet.

Put in each box an equal number of veg'd clones that are ready for flowering. Feed & water the plants the same during flowering.

At the end of flowering, compare the quality & yield of each cabinet.

The lights:

Cab 1) HPS with magnetic ballast.
- Rated power: 250w
- Actual power used: 315w

Cab 2) Chinese induction lamp
- Rated power: 120w
- Actual power used: 118w

Cab 2) 2 x Sunblaster 2' CFL
- Rated power: 24w
- Actual power used: 20w

*note: The CFLs may be added because my actual power use estimates were off (I expected the induction to consumer more than rated) and I wanted to get closer to 50%. Feedback on this decision is appreciated.

[vanduction]

The Cabinets:

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8960/hpscabr.th.jpg (http://img44.imageshack.us/i/hpscabr.jpg/)
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1831/indcab.th.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/indcab.jpg/)

Construction:

Each cabinet is 2' x 2' wide, and 4' tall. Made from plywood. Painted white. (white poly may be installed later when i get some).

Watering:

The bottom of the cab is covered in rubber pond liner. There is a drain with the valve on the bottom. This will allow all plants to be watered at once by flooding the bottom of the cab and then draining it.

In future a pump/drip system may be added, but for now dumping water into the 2 boxes will suffice.

Power:

Lights, heating, and cooling all have their own plugs.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6906/cabside.th.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/cabside.jpg/)

The lights for both cabinets will run off the same timer. All other items will run off continuous power.

Temperature:

Each cabinet has a high thermostat and a low thermostat. The high thermostat activates a 106cfm fan that blows out a 5" duct. Air intake is through a dryer exhaust flap.

The low thermostat activates an electric blanket under the pond liner. Now that it's winter I expect this will be necessary when the lamps are off.

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/5843/thermostats.th.jpg (http://img585.imageshack.us/i/thermostats.jpg/)

Smell:

There is nothing to control smell at this time, but I can add either an ozonator or a charcoal filter to the 5" ducts.

[bigsby]

Subscribed. Please see this through! And thanks for taking the time. We need more of these kinds of comparisons.

[RackitMan]

Vanduction, where did you get the idea that induction will out-perform HPS?

To my knowledge the main benefits of induction are the lumen maintenance and the long life, unless the bulbs are specifically designed for horticulture - and even then...

I would imagine induction to be equal to or slightly better than standard t5 fluoros for flowering.

[vanduction]

Vanduction, where did you get the idea that induction will out-perform HPS?
From you, other users, and vendor's websites.

...

Forum post: http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/173635-new-induction-grow-light.html

RackitMan (you) said: "The light ouput is about 85% usable by the plant as compared to about 15-20% (?) for HPS."

Forum Post: http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/186360-led-induction-grow-diary.html#post2147172

Calbunn said: "I'm very happy with the yields and the 400 have replaced my 1000 w hps"

Vendor Website: EFDL Lighting, induction lamps, LED grow lights (http://www.advanced-hydroponics.ca/lighting.php)

"These lamps use 70% less energy than HPS"

Vendor Website: Induction Grow Lights - NewAge Lights (http://www.newagelights.com/induction_grow_lights.html)

"This 150w Super Grow Light can replace [...] 600W to 800W HPS (HID).

[Dutch Pimp]

oh, my...take a ticket...take a seat.....:glugglug:..I wanna see this.

[canniwhatsis]

Yep,... Watching.

[drudown11]

ive been wanting to see something like this for a while

[khyberkitsune]

Well, at least you managed to get the relative lumen output matched.

Still putting my money behind the HPS due to higher usable photon flux density.

[vanduction]

The cabinets are now installed in the corner. I had to move the exhaust ducts to the side because depth is an issue.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1838/inplace.th.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/i/inplace.jpg/)

Each cabinet has a ball valve installed. The plants will be allowed to soak and then the water will be drained.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/975/drainage.th.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/drainage.jpg/)

There are thermometers with remote probes. Each thermometer has a MIN/MAX function so i can confirm that the thermostats inside are working properly.

I have confirmed that the max temperature in both boxes is about 78 degrees. The cooling works perfectly.

I plan on setting the low thermostat to 18c, which is about 64 degrees. The temperature in our area has gone below freezing but I hope the combination of plants in cabinets + the heating pads will be able to keep the temperature up. If the thermometers report the MIN temperatures are too low, then i will add insulation and/or a small heater.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/550/thermometers.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/thermometers.jpg/)

[StoneMeadow]

Subscribed...I love science projects. :D

[vanduction]

The little guys got put in the boxes about a week ago. They had been veg'd from clones, in a shared tray of potting soil, under a mix of bright HPS & MH. They were transferred into individual 6"x6"x7" pots with "supernatural" growing medium:

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2181/supernaturalp.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/i/supernaturalp.jpg/)

We like this medium primarily because it prevents overwatering and it's reusable.

Here are the plants after about 5 days:

HPS:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7637/101026hps.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/i/101026hps.jpg/)

induction:

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/537/101026ind.th.jpg (http://img600.imageshack.us/i/101026ind.jpg/)

It may not be obvious from the pictures, but the HPS plants are a bit shorter and a bit darker. Both plans are showing the very beginnings of the buds.

There was a problem however: the temperatures in the cabinets are getting too low, despite the electric blankets:

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6091/lowtemp.th.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/lowtemp.jpg/)

Minimum temperature: below freezing!! I really hope this has not ruined the experiment. To solve this i installed 1500w electric heaters inside.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5796/heater0.th.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/i/heater0.jpg/)

Once those were put in, the temperature inside remained consistent between 66f and 72f while the lights were out.

From here until harvest I expect to only post occasional pictures as the plants flower, but if anyone has any questions or suggestions let me know!

[vanduction]

After about 3 weeks the HPS plants are shorter, a bit darker, and have slightly larger buds.

HPS pics:
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7655/101206hpsheight.th.jpg (http://img444.imageshack.us/i/101206hpsheight.jpg/)http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/666/101206hpsbud.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/i/101206hpsbud.jpg/)

induction pics:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/126/101206indheight.th.jpg (http://img254.imageshack.us/i/101206indheight.jpg/)http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6313/101206indbud.th.jpg (http://img811.imageshack.us/i/101206indbud.jpg/)

[TANKJR]

Yep, I like experiments, too! I'm in... :thumbsup:

[vanduction]

Haven't noticed much growth in the past 2 weeks. The good news is the temperature is holding steady: between 64f & 80f. I've bumped the thermostat up to try to keep the temp in the high 60s.

The difference in bud size between the lights is pretty obvious at this point, but we'll have to see if there's a change in the coming weeks.

HPS pics:
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6582/101218hpsbud.th.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/101218hpsbud.jpg/)http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9787/101218hpsheight.th.jpg (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/101218hpsheight.jpg/)

Induction pics:
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8352/101218indbud.th.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/i/101218indbud.jpg/)http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6272/101218indheight.th.jpg (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/101218indheight.jpg/)

[emilya]

Wooohooo! Controlled Science Experiment! I love it... had to subscribe to see the results. I love the dual cabinets and all sorts of possibilities for them come to mind! Good luck on the grow! --Emmie

[khyberkitsune]

Still putting the cash on HPS.

[budlover13]

Subbed!

[Lynhal]

Gently pushes the other sub'ers over to get a good seat. Science is a blast! :stoned:

[jon420]

I like the fact that someone is trying this experiment but I am a little confused about a couple things. How is this going to be a very accurate study without using the same amout of watts? If you based this study on lumens I believe the CFL's would win because they can be spaced differently than a HOT HPS that just hangs above the plants. (You would however be using more watts in CFL's if you went based on lumens.) I would suggest using the same amount of watts and then trying the experiment again. I am not at all knocking your experiment, Im just not sure how accurate it will be because of the watt difference and the temp problem you had. Good luck and I'll be following your experiment and I hope you do more. We need more documented studies in the growing world.:smokin:

[vanduction]

Still putting the cash on HPS.
At this point, so am I. But the interesting question still to be answered is "by how much?"

If I get 75% of the yield using 45% of the watts, then we have learned something interesting.

[jon420]

Good point. Atleast something will be learned from this experiment. I only think CFL's can win because they offer less stretching which allows for more bud-sites. I have one particular clone/strain that I am growing with CFL's and my buddy has the same clone/strain and he uses HPS. I have quite a few more bud-sites than he has and my plant is much more sturdy. Keep the studies going!!!!

[vanduction]

Good questions jon420, i appreciate the input.

Let me be clear that my methodology is heavily biased to learn things that will help me with my regular growing. There are plenty of ways to run experiments to discover different facts, but those facts just don't interest me enough into testing them.


How is this going to be a very accurate study without using the same amout of watts?
Marketing hype claims that induction lamps can match the results of HPS lamps with less than 50% of the wattage used. I intend to prove or disprove this claim.


If you based this study on lumens
1) I don't really care about lumens produced. I care about grams of bud produced
2) My power company doesn't charge me for lumens. It charges me for watts.

So I will never, ever, set up an experiment based on spectrum, lumens, etc. etc. because I'm only interested in practical info: i.e., can i save money on electricity.


I believe the CFL's would win because they can be spaced differently than a HOT HPS that just hangs above the plants.
My normal growing requires lights to be fixed for the entire cycle. However, I am willing to change the height in future experiments as we learn how much room these boxes allow.


Im just not sure how accurate it will be because of the watt difference and the temp problem you had.
Because both boxes were identical, aside from the control variable (the lamp), I believe they will give an accurate vector between the performance of these lamps.


I would suggest using the same amount of watts
I think it's very unlikely that anyone is interested in replacing their 1000w HPS with 1000w induction, which would cost something like 6x as much.

However, I am going to ask Bubba for a 300w induction which he claims will perform as well as 800w HPS. I will put it heads-up against 600w HPS to see if his design does all he claims

[jon420]

Thanks for your reply man, I appreciate it. You are doing something very usefull for many people if they take in the knowledge. I too would not give up a 1000 watt HPS system for 1000 watt CFL system because I grow based on lumens and CFL lumens are of course lower. I am only growing with CFL's right now for experimentation purposes. Seing what can be done with a lot less watts than what I'm used to. Plus I just really enjoy growing different ways. Happy growing/experimenting!!!!!!

[jon420]

However, I am going to ask Bubba for a 300w induction which he claims will perform as well as 800w HPS. I will put it heads-up against 600w HPS to see if his design does all he claims

That is somthing I too want to see. Please keep udates about this.

[emilya]

How is this going to be a very accurate study without using the same amout of watts? ..... I would suggest using the same amount of watts and then trying the experiment again.

Now I know I am a newbie... but last time I looked, it was the power company that measured watts and all the plants cared about was how many lumens / sq. meter were hitting them.

A more efficient light can use less wattage and put out more lumens than its less efficient counterpart. I think that this experiment is going to be a good one as it is based on lumens. I'm also thinking that the differences we will see will be attributed to the actual lumens falling on the plants since a hotter bulb has to be moved farther away and the strength of the light from any source falls off at a factor of distance squared and also the wavelength of the two light sources in each of the growth periods, knowing that flowering needs reds and veg needs blues. Very interesting experiment though! :thumbsup:

Emmie

[khyberkitsune]

Now I know I am a newbie... but last time I looked, it was the power company that measured watts and all the plants cared about was how many lumens / sq. meter were hitting them.

A more efficient light can use less wattage and put out more lumens than its less efficient counterpart. I think that this experiment is going to be a good one as it is based on lumens. I'm also thinking that the differences we will see will be attributed to the actual lumens falling on the plants since a hotter bulb has to be moved farther away and the strength of the light from any source falls off at a factor of distance squared and also the wavelength of the two light sources in each of the growth periods, knowing that flowering needs reds and veg needs blues. Very interesting experiment though! :thumbsup:

Emmie

Nope, plants don't care about lumens, either. They care about photon flux density first, proper spectrum second. That's all they care about.

[canniwhatsis]

I'm following this closely.

I've already got my hip waders out for trudging thru the BS.

[emilya]

Nope, plants don't care about lumens, either. They care about photon flux density first, proper spectrum second. That's all they care about.

I believe that is exactly what I said. Photon flux density actually is a measure of the rate of flow of light in a given period of time. It is measured in Lumens. In order to get a proper measurement, the distance from the source as well as the capture area must be included in the calculation. It is measured in Lumens per square meter and is actually a count of how many photons are hitting the target in a period of time. I believe I also mentioned spectrum with my more specific term, wavelength.

Also, published Flux Density rates of various light sources do not take into account the direction of the flow of photons, and the actual lumens/sqm that is hitting the plants has much to do with the reflectors and most importantly the distance from the source. With this in mind, a well designed T5 running very cool and being able to be very close to its target can actually be more efficient than a "hot" light that has to be many magnitude further away... again, I said this in a less wordy way up above.

I may be new to growing, but I know my science.

Emmie

[gypski]

I believe that is exactly what I said. Photon flux density actually is a measure of the rate of flow of light in a given period of time. It is measured in Lumens. In order to get a proper measurement, the distance from the source as well as the capture area must be included in the calculation. It is measured in Lumens per square meter and is actually a count of how many photons are hitting the target in a period of time. I believe I also mentioned spectrum with my more specific term, wavelength.

Also, published Flux Density rates of various light sources do not take into account the direction of the flow of photons, and the actual lumens/sqm that is hitting the plants has much to do with the reflectors and most importantly the distance from the source. With this in mind, a well designed T5 running very cool and being able to be very close to its target can actually be more efficient than a "hot" light that has to be many magnitude further away... again, I said this in a less wordy way up above.

I may be new to growing, but I know my science.

Emmie

Ok, I have a 6 light T5, and I'm getting ready to start flowering some of my harem. Put some of the ladies to work. I'm thinking of doing a four/two combination. AMF, I'm going to get four red bulbs, and starting with either a red/white/red/red/white/red, or red/red/white/white/red/red sequence. Give me a scientific opinion on that please. I think some white is needed for growth too during flowering, but just not as much. And what you are saying is making sense as far as lumens and yield per lumen/square ft. :D

[khyberkitsune]

"Photon flux density actually is a measure of the rate of flow of light in a given period of time. It is measured in Lumens."

No, it is not measured in lumens, at all. Lumens is weighted at 555nm. Photon flux density is measured as umol/m^2/s-1.

"Also, published Flux Density rates of various light sources do not take into account the direction of the flow of photons"

Photon flux is a ray, and as such, straight line emissions from the source, and reflection from a reflector happens at the same angle at which it strikes the surface.

"With this in mind, a well designed T5 running very cool and being able to be very close to its target can actually be more efficient than a "hot" light that has to be many magnitude further away"

Can be in theory, in almost all practice, it fails. Also, do you understand orders of magnitude? Your use of the word hints that you do not.

"I may be new to growing, but I know my science."

Speaking as a research director, your science is totally flawed and incorrect.

Time to put my own hip waders on, it seems.

[emilya]

Speaking as a research director, your science is totally flawed and incorrect.


I am not going to hijack this thread having an argument with you about this. If you wish to start a new thread we will discuss how your formula measures the weight of photons hitting a target, thereby counting photons, but no more here please. My apologies to vanduction... I am following your experiment with great interest. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Emmie

[canniwhatsis]

Time to put my own hip waders on, it seems.

:S2:


I call BS on all of it since I'm totally ignorant of what your talking about!

So until it's been hashed out in terms my ignorant ass can understand,..... I've got my waders! ;)


not trying to start a shitstorm,.... just trying to learn a thing or two from it all.




With any luck my girls will benefit from it..... and if not,... well they aren't any worse off than they were before this thread! ;) :greenthumb:

[emilya]

Ok, I have a 6 light T5, and I'm getting ready to start flowering some of my harem. Put some of the ladies to work. I'm thinking of doing a four/two combination. AMF, I'm going to get four red bulbs, and starting with either a red/white/red/red/white/red, or red/red/white/white/red/red sequence. Give me a scientific opinion on that please. I think some white is needed for growth too during flowering, but just not as much. And what you are saying is making sense as far as lumens and yield per lumen/square ft. :D

I am not qualified to recommend how to grow using these lights yet as I am still in my first grow gypski. I will say that I am a firm believer that the T5 light is an efficient light source and in the proper circumstances it can be compared to any of the lights available to us. This is why vanduction's experiment is so interesting to me. I will further say that in my grow box I have one Sunblaze 44 in the veg area (all blue) and a Sunblaze 48 in the flowering area (all red) and have every hope in its ability to produce well in a carefully controlled SCRog canopy where I can remain very close to the buds. But that being said, I am a rank amateur in growing, and what I am doing here is simply an experiment based on what I am learning from those here on the forum who are much more qualified than I am.

Emmie

[gypski]

I am not qualified to recommend how to grow using these lights yet as I am still in my first grow gypski. I will say that I am a firm believer that the T5 light is an efficient light source and in the proper circumstances it can be compared to any of the lights available to us. This is why vanduction's experiment is so interesting to me. I will further say that in my grow box I have one Sunblaze 44 in the veg area (all blue) and a Sunblaze 48 in the flowering area (all red) and have every hope in its ability to produce well in a carefully controlled SCRog canopy where I can remain very close to the buds. But that being said, I am a rank amateur in growing, and what I am doing here is simply an experiment based on what I am learning from those here on the forum who are much more qualified than I am.

Emmie

Ok, I got the SB 46, and you want to keep your plants at least 2+ inches away. the top growth will reach toward the light and burn the tips!! I have to check mine a couple times a day. I'm more interested in the lumen per sq ft because that what it was in the old days (10 years ago). And I too believe the T5 can match the 400HPS. so I'm flowering with my SB 46!! I'm debating getting the SB 24/4 so I can keep some clones going in another closet!! :D

[knna]

Yeps, lets see how vanduction experiment ends. He simply put under test claim of half wattage of induction lamp equal to HPS.

For the moment it seems result not confirm such claim, but Ill wait grow finish before stating it. If result is negative, then it would time for discussing about how much light each option emits or what would be the right amount of induction watts to match results of a given HPS.

Good job, vanduction :thumbsup:

[knna]

Ok, I have a 6 light T5, and I'm getting ready to start flowering some of my harem. Put some of the ladies to work. I'm thinking of doing a four/two combination. AMF, I'm going to get four red bulbs, and starting with either a red/white/red/red/white/red, or red/red/white/white/red/red sequence. Give me a scientific opinion on that please. I think some white is needed for growth too during flowering, but just not as much. And what you are saying is making sense as far as lumens and yield per lumen/square ft. :D


I would need to know exact tubes you are using to say anything for sure. Im not following last development on T5s, but most red T5s Im aware of actually continues emitting blue and some red light. Some of them, noticeable amounts of yellow. By placing white and red T5s intercalated 1:1 or all at each side, for such number of tubes there going to be little difference between areas of the grow. Yes, different spectrum on each side, but not extreme differences at all.

But I think we are highjacking thread with this question, why about opening a thread on the topic?

[khyberkitsune]

I am not going to hijack this thread having an argument with you about this. If you wish to start a new thread we will discuss how your formula measures the weight of photons hitting a target, thereby counting photons, but no more here please. My apologies to vanduction... I am following your experiment with great interest. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Emmie

No need for a new thread when one simple link does it all.

Light and Plants (http://www.sunmastergrowlamps.com/SunmLightandPlants.html)

http://imgur.com/5HgI2.gif

[Dutch Pimp]

I'm following this closely.

I've already got my hip waders out for trudging thru the BS.
:wtf:...

[Lynhal]

:wtf:...

LMFAO at the attached thumbnail. Too freaking funny, DP! :S2:

[vanduction]

I am not going to hijack this thread having an argument with you about this.
Thank you.

I encourage all posts which discuss the practical aspects of this & similar future experiments.

[bubbas]

Hi Vanduction,
I just turned on to your grow. There is a serious problem with your induction set up that may explain why they are not performing up to par.
You need to have your fan higher than your bulb these lights need a certain amount of heat to keep at full output. Any cooling of the bulb will cause the bulb to loose up to 50% of brightness after about a hour of operation. We have a lot of experience with these lights and this is one of the most common problems growers do with these bulbs. We only sell these set ups with reflectors only we don't sell just the bulb and ballast for this reason. Our reflector design is important too in keeping the bulb at the right temperature. You replied to me in another thread and told me you live in my area. Please give me a call and i can help you with your set up.

[vanduction]

Bubbas what temperature do you think would be best for generic chinese induction lamps?

Right now the temperature probes are inside the heating thermostat, but out of curiosity I will put them on top of the shades and see what they register.

[Indagrojeff]

Bubbas what temperature do you think would be best for generic chinese induction lamps?

Right now the temperature probes are inside the heating thermostat, but out of curiosity I will put them on top of the shades and see what they register.

Aside from the differences in manufacturing of these fixtures, drivers, couplings and lamps, and they are substantial, I'll address the general operational values of induction EFDL systems, not the self ballasted, screw in style internal electrode styles of induction;

higher wattage, 250+, induction lamps are used inside freezers because they can operate in ambient conditions as low as 40 Deg F (-40 Deg C). While the lower wattages need to be a minimum starting temperature of -13 Deg F/ -25 Deg C. The temperatures in the grow environment do not impact lumen output. I completely agree with the relector point for a different reason in that that the reflector design is extremely important to overall lumen distribution and qty of photons measured at the canopy.

For your future reference, but not likely to be seen in these environments, would be the maximum temperature ranges for the Driver housing temperature should never exceed 149 Deg. F (65 Deg C). Thus to maximize system life, ambient temperature of the driver should be kept as low as possible.

Lamp: temperature of the lamp mounting base of the induction core should never exceed 212 Deg F (100 Deg C). Amalgam tip: temperature must be within the range of 131 Deg F to 257 Deg F 9 (55 Deg C to 125 Deg C) for optimal light output.

On the lower wattage screw in style internal electrode induction lamps most of the failures with these lamps we see from base up installation of the lamps mounted inside a reflector that traps the heat inside the base driver.

On the higher wattage EFDL it's usually fixture design, lack of heat sinks and the fixture having an IP65 rating which is designed for outdoor applications, such as tunnels, where any surface heat is quickly evacuated from the surface of the fixture. In a grow room the glass is trapping the heat and lamp/driver failure with the hours these fixtures are running do not allow for adequate ventilation and inevitably result in premature failure.

Best of luck on this grow and I hope this information helps.

[khyberkitsune]

Thank you.

I encourage all posts which discuss the practical aspects of this & similar future experiments.

I'm about two years ahead of you, just to give you a time frame of reference as a courtesy.

Want to know the specific 6 wavelengths Cannabis responds to? I've already promised to not make the light for myself and give out the info, so do what you want.

Here are the minimum specs:

30% blue +/-5% in either direction for 460 or 420nm blue, plus 35% +/-5% for 660nm red and 630nm red.

I cannot give you the UV and IR specs that provide super-growth, because it's not for cannabis, it's for fruiting plants like tomatoes and peppers, and cannabis fails under the same type of light.

Cannabis does better under higher amounts of blue, up to 40% blue (wavelength is indeterminate for now,) for flowering power/bud density. This is according to a personal e-mail from someone on this site. I will not expose them, I'll let them expose themselves when I send them the proper equipment to test against my own to make it a fair test. John Lydon has made good note that 290nm increases bud potency in his earlier tests in the later 80s for his Ph.D.

We can only test this stuff for now, but I am sure (with my own sales of personally-grown overstock to dispensaries on a single-blind test versus their stuff on the spot,) that my stuff has topped theirs by far. They offered too much for an ounce of my stuff - I only paid a total of $25 per ounce to produce, they wanted to pay $200.

I refused and gave it at $100/oz. I am not greedy, I pay my taxes, and I don't go for the gold.

Granted this will not apply to every strain. This was fine-tuned but it should yield in a similar manner, within 20% yield weight depending upon how thick you let your plants get.

Remember the YouTube video - 90w LED was = 400w HPS in veg, but not bloom. You need at least half the HID power in LED to match.

[vanduction]

I am requesting input from the readers of this thread:

Bubba believes the performance of my induction lamp would be improved if the shade were enclosed on all 4 sides, trapping heat and keeping it warmer.

I have my opinion, but would like to hear what others think: Should I make this change for the final 3-4 weeks of flowering?

[bubbas]

I am requesting input from the readers of this thread:

Bubba believes the performance of my induction lamp would be improved if the shade were enclosed on all 4 sides, trapping heat and keeping it warmer.

I have my opinion, but would like to hear what others think: Should I make this change for the final 3-4 weeks of flowering?

If you don't believe me get yourself a light meter either Lux or quantum and measure output after start up and warm up and wait a couple hours and measure again or better yet have your fan come on and take a measurment then turn off your fan and take a reading and watch it climb. We notice in our 400 watt the ouput dropped from 39000 lux to a mere 13000 after a cou[le hours. but don't take my word for it test it yourself.

[vanduction]

There is only 10 days left until harvest so I decided to leave the lamp unchanged for the rest of this particular test. If this lamp is used again, it will (among other potential changes) have the shade enclosed to trap heat.

Both sides are still unimpressive, but the HPS still has the lead. Also you can see the leaves on the HPS are yellowing/dying a lot more than on the induction. Don't know what to make of that yet.

HPS:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9127/101230hpsflower.th.jpg (http://img337.imageshack.us/i/101230hpsflower.jpg/)http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5282/101230hpsside.th.jpg (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/101230hpsside.jpg/)

Induction:
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4430/101230indflower.th.jpg (http://img832.imageshack.us/i/101230indflower.jpg/)http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8103/101230indside.th.jpg (http://img145.imageshack.us/i/101230indside.jpg/)

[khyberkitsune]

There is only 10 days left until harvest so I decided to leave the lamp unchanged for the rest of this particular test. If this lamp is used again, it will (among other potential changes) have the shade enclosed to trap heat.

Both sides are still unimpressive, but the HPS still has the lead. Also you can see the leaves on the HPS are yellowing/dying a lot more than on the induction. Don't know what to make of that yet.

HPS:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9127/101230hpsflower.th.jpg (http://img337.imageshack.us/i/101230hpsflower.jpg/)http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5282/101230hpsside.th.jpg (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/101230hpsside.jpg/)

Induction:
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4430/101230indflower.th.jpg (http://img832.imageshack.us/i/101230indflower.jpg/)http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8103/101230indside.th.jpg (http://img145.imageshack.us/i/101230indside.jpg/)

The yellowing is due to the HPS providing more PPFD than the induction lamp, the plant is using more nutrients as it receives higher energy amounts.

As far as the increasing of efficiency - induction lamps don't work like regular fluorescents that use electrodes. Electrode-based lamps run more efficient the hotter they get. Induction requires it to be cooler, and you need to direct as much of the EMF as possible directly into the tube.

If you want to increase the efficiency, you'll need to build a better waveguide in the tube and build a better diamagnetic shield around the entire enclosure to keep that EMF focused in the tube area for higher output.

[emilya]

( diamagnetic shield )

lol... I need a bong hit after that one!

[RAINHAZE]

me too.

[khyberkitsune]

lol... I need a bong hit after that one!

Again with you?

Diamagnetism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism)

You know cursory Google or Wiki searches can EASILY explain half of what I'm talking about, without making yourself look like a fool.

[emilya]

Again with you?

Diamagnetism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism)

You know cursory Google or Wiki searches can EASILY explain half of what I'm talking about, without making yourself look like a fool.

My response to you is:
acyrologia - Wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/acyrologia)

[bigsby]

You know cursory Google or Wiki searches can EASILY explain half of what I'm talking about, without making yourself look like a fool.

Dude, no need to be potentially or should I say possibly rude... (it's an inside joke).

[vanduction]

Less than a week until harvest!

I decided not to modify the shade. Although I believe Bubba's advice would result in better yield, I felt it would not yield useful information to modify the cabinet in the middle of the grow. If this lamp is used in a future experiment, I will certainly make design changes based on his input.

The HPS clearly has more substantial flowers, and apparently more resin. I have used slightly larger pictures than before to try to show this off.

HPS Pictures
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5354/110104hpsheight.th.jpg (http://img823.imageshack.us/i/110104hpsheight.jpg/)http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/590/110104hpsflower.th.jpg (http://img715.imageshack.us/i/110104hpsflower.jpg/)

Induction Pictures
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4088/110104indheight.th.jpg (http://img403.imageshack.us/i/110104indheight.jpg/)http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2964/110104indflower.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/i/110104indflower.jpg/)

[docrock]

Hi, this week I will be starting a comparison grow between HPS and Induction lighting.

Question: Can induction lighting produce the same flowering performance as HPS lighting, while using 50% or less watts?

The goal is NOT any of:
- examine veg growth
- produce maximum yield
- try any other kind of experimentation

Methodology:

Manufacture 2 identical growing cabinets. The only difference is the lamps installed in each cabinet.

Put in each box an equal number of veg'd clones that are ready for flowering. Feed & water the plants the same during flowering.

At the end of flowering, compare the quality & yield of each cabinet.

The lights:

Cab 1) HPS with magnetic ballast.
- Rated power: 250w
- Actual power used: 315w

Cab 2) Chinese induction lamp
- Rated power: 120w
- Actual power used: 118w

Cab 2) 2 x Sunblaster 2' CFL
- Rated power: 24w
- Actual power used: 20w

*note: The CFLs may be added because my actual power use estimates were off (I expected the induction to consumer more than rated) and I wanted to get closer to 50%. Feedback on this decision is appreciated.
Wow, I want to know the results of this. Thanks

[yonstar]

I am very interested in this grow. I have been in contact with a Chinese supplier. I was quoted almost $ 300 for shipping a 400 watt lamp 2700k with the housing (36 kg monster lol) ! So I asked for a quote on just the ballast and the lamp w/o the housing. The shipping comes to $ 80.00. I have negotiated a reasonable price but am still pessimistic with the credibility of its performance. This grow could determine my decision to buy one so please keep us updated

Thank you :jointsmile:

[vanduction]

Taken just before the plants were cut:

HPS:
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4097/110113hpsflower.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/i/110113hpsflower.jpg/)http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/199/110113hpsside.th.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/110113hpsside.jpg/)

Induction:
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3219/110113indflower.th.jpg (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/110113indflower.jpg/)http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/3886/110113indside.th.jpg (http://img831.imageshack.us/i/110113indside.jpg/)

[vanduction]

The final results are in!

Heights:


HPS: grew about 14" above the soil. There was 22" of clearance to the lamp
Ind: grew about 12" above the soil. There was 25" of clearance to the lamp

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7275/110113hpsroom.th.jpg (http://img829.imageshack.us/i/110113hpsroom.jpg/)http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2601/110113indroom.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/i/110113indroom.jpg/)

These clones can easily grow to 24"+ in this amount of time, so next experiment I will lower the lamps 8"-12" (depending on power used) to increase performance.

Yields:

The container used to weigh is 32 grams. All weights were done with freshly cut WET flowers:

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9454/110113hpsweight.th.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/110113hpsweight.jpg/)http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/520/110113indweight.th.jpg (http://img718.imageshack.us/i/110113indweight.jpg/)


HPS: 195.9 - 32 = 163.9g
Ind: 109.9 - 32 = 77.9g

[TANKJR]

Hey Van, I've been lurking here watching all the action...very interesting btw! Would you also post up the dry numbers when available? So what did you conclude? If the dry weights are comparable, looks like I'll keep running my HID's for awhile longer! Thanks a lot for taking the time do this and to post all this...I look forward to watching your next test, whatever it may be! :thumbsup:

[vanduction]

Power vs. Grams:

I will ignore the incidental power used to heat or cool the cabinets. Although we all know typically less heat is better because it saves on cooling costs, it's outside the scope of today's experiment.


HPS: ratio: 0.52g/w (Power used: 315w. Weight produced: 164g.)
Ind: Ratio: 0.57g/w (Power used: 138w. Weight produced: 78g.)


Conclusions:

I feel it's safe to conclude that, under the conditions of this experiment:


This induction lamp did NOT produce the same yield as an HPS lamp when using only 50% of power
This HPS lamp is only 93% as power efficient as this Induction/CFL combination


Notes for future experiments:


A vendor has claimed enclosing the induction lamp's shade would increase its performance
Insulation & white poly sheathing will be added to the cabinets to improve temperature stability & light focus
Lamps will be lowered 8"-12" to get closer to the expected final height

[vanduction]

Would you also post up the dry numbers when available? So what did you conclude?
If I still have it after it's dried, I will. It would also be nice to give it to a reefer fiend to smoke & give a subjective opinion on the quality, but I can't promise anything.

[TANKJR]

According to JC, you can estimate dried weight at about 25% of wet weight. Thanks for posting all this! I appreciate your time and effort. :thumbsup: :jointsmile:

[vanduction]

HPS: 48g dry
Ind: 28g dry

[vanduction]

Bubbas offered me one of his units to test a few weeks ago... now that the next batch is starting up I hope he follows through soon!

I'm very interested to see how a fully designed unit compares to an HPS.

[donglai]

Hi there Vanduction,

I would like to know more about the induction lamp you used for your experiment. I am asking this because i am currently working with one of the chinese manufacturers of induction lighting called Shanghai Genesis lighting and i would love to see the results comparing HPS vs induction or CFL. The fact is that i cant view any of the pics due to the internet ban i have here in China so if you could send me your results i would really appreciate them.

Also if you are still interested in testing more the induction lighting technology get back to me at [email protected] and i will propose you something interesting that will benefit both of us.