For the Ebb&Gro population .........

[tinytoon]

I have noticed that allot of peeps are using this type of system to grow and thought maybe I would share a thought of mine. From all the comments and such I have read about this setup it seems the biggest gripe is that the last bucket can end up with stale water. If fact I believe it was Daddy that pointed this out and I think he was the one that mentioned turning it into a drip system. So far here is what I have done.
PH at res 5.7 PH at bucket 6.5 ....... not good
It has always been said that the bucket and controller must be at the same height (myself included), this my friends is very false. If the controller is higher than the buckets then you will have a mess in the room but if the buckets are higher than the controller then you will have that much less water in the buckets. Here is the simple version. Started my setup this run with 15 buckets all at same height as controller but I did put a 2" piece of 3" pvc in between bucket and liner to keep roots from sitting in water. When the buckets were empty, (drain cycle) I place a piece of a 2x4 under the bucket to raise the whole thing off the floor and end up being aprox 1 1/2" higher than the controller. Doing this means I get about 1 1/2" less water in the buckets but more drains back to controller because of height diff. With 15 buckets I ended up with about 3 gal more that drained out compared to all at same height. As long as this is done when buckets are empty, if done when full you might want to have the mop bucket next to the controller. Just dumped res yesterday and will check PH at buckets tonight and let you all know if I'm going dwon the right road or not. :jointsmile:

[keylime]

I've been running my ebb and grow system for about a year right now, and I am ready to replace it. My reason is that its just too complicated and too many things can go wrong.
My system runs 25 3 gal buckets.

Here's what I've had problems with.
1. the control bucket has 3 float valves, 2 of them have already malfunctioned. I've had to buy a new control bucket because I didn't have time to wait for a $10 float valve, but the result was a flooded grow room. I've also had a water pump give up, it has two of those, when one malfunctions, there is not much time to waste. About a week ago, I had just replanted a batch into the flowering room. I'm always worried the first night or two to make sure nothing goes wrong. In the evening before I went to sleep I checked on them and everything looked good. The next morning they were almost dead. One pump quit working, and the plants being in hydroton, dry up a lot faster than most other types of media.
I also had some plants dying one day, and finally figured out that the main tube feeding the row of buckets had a kink in it. I think I must have moved it while tending some other plants.
So basically I think there are too many parts that have to work together, and I am going over to a simpler system, where the plants are not as dependent on mechanical failures.
I think I'm going to use the buckets and remove the lines, and fill them with a combination of coco coir and perlite, and do a top feed once or twice a day (drain to waste). It will depend on a timer and a pump. If one of those malfunctioned, it would be much more forgiving than E&G.

keylime

[keylime]

Oh, and I forgot to mention....

I've had a bunch of buckets not filling up and had a very difficult time figuring out what is going on. At the end of that crop, I took all the lines apart where the buckets interconnect, and found roots had gotten in there and plugged the lines, therefore nutrients could not reach the buckets behing the plugged line.

Its a great system when it works properly, but there are too many things that can and will go wrong. I am often out of town for two or three days, and that can spell disaster for my girls.

keylime

[tinytoon]

Well I'm sorry to hear you have had so many issuses with your system but remember one thing, no matter what type of system you have there is always the variables to think about. Pumps will fail, lines will clog, bulbs will blow, power goes out and so on. None of those have anything to do with the system itself but we all face it everyday. Just need to pray to the ganja gods more often :jointsmile:

[scottcc5s]

Well I'm sorry to hear you have had so many issuses with your system but remember one thing, no matter what type of system you have there is always the variables to think about. Pumps will fail, lines will clog, bulbs will blow, power goes out and so on. None of those have anything to do with the system itself but we all face it everyday. Just need to pray to the ganja gods more often :jointsmile:

Tiny: I have the same system you have and Keylime brings up some interesting issues. Have you every had any issues with your system with "floats" and "pumps" going bad?? Knock on wood, so far so good but just wondering about those two issues.

[keylime]

Ok, lets compare ebb and grow to a flood and drain system.

They have in common, one water pump and one timer.

Here's a list of the extras the Ebb and Grow has

It uses two water pumps, so:

1. it has an extra water pump
2, it has 2 float valves
3. It has a control board that runs the float valves.

Just those "extras" are FOUR separate things that can go sour. If one of those malfunctions, and you're not in the room for 12 hrs, you could have a dead crop - at least cause a lot of stress on the girls.

It also means you are FOUR TIMES as likely to have a disaster compared to Ebb and Flow. The odds are too expensive, and it has cost me a lot of losses in yield several times, and I am tired of it.

keylime

[tinytoon]

I have not run into any of these problems as of yet but do plan on having spare parts available. Pump is no big deal, home dePOT or lowes in garden section. Floats would be a different story.
Strange thing is I started this thread to help people with a PH difference and it has now turned into scare the hell out of peeps who just started using it. Common sence tells you that shit happens no matter what type of system you run. Pumps fail, timers go up in smoke and mother nature just dropped a tree on your power lines and there is nothing you can do about it. That being said no matter how you are growing you should always make sure you have access to shit that can break. I have just begun using my system and so far have been happy with it. Again I say I'm sorry it didnt work for you but who knows maybe the ganja gods dont want you to grow that way /shrug

But back to what I was trying to discuss, tested ph in buckets several times and now they run within .2 of the controller box so I would have to say the experiment was a good learning curve for me.
Have a nice day and if all else fails read my sig! :thumbsup:

[jski9999]

Hey all! 1st things 1st.. Tiny, my hat's off to ya buddy. From dwc in a tent to ebb n gro in a custom room, you get it done with impressive results. I've learned much from your posts, thanks for your efforts.

Alright on to the subject. I have a perpetual grow running 3 ebb n grow systems, with 12-18 sites each, depending on the strain.

I'm not sure if you all are aware of this or not, so I thought better throw it out there.. c.a.p. changed the system sometime between late spring and early summer. The new system has a different bucket design that incorporates a 1 in lip in the bottom of the outer bucket. They then cut a channel in the bottom where the fitting attaches, making the fitting the lowest spot in the bucket.

The new control bucket seems identical to the old one dimension wise. The difference is the new system only uses 2 float switches instead of 3, and they moved the lower switch to the very bottom of the bucket. It's now so low, the pump had a hard time getting the water low enough to trip the switch. I just removed the suction cups off the bottom of the pump to get it low enough to actuate the switch properly. These changes reduced the standing water from 1.5-2" in the older style, down to under a 1/2 inch. I put a piece of osb under each bucket and woo-hoo, I have dry buckets!!!

I happen to have 2 new systems and 1 old. I bought new style buckets for the old system and am about 2 weeks from trying it. I'm not sure how much the difference between the switch locations is gonna effect the results. We'll see if it works out.

1 word of caution to those expanding their systems. The expansion kits that I've ordered since summer have been the new style. Not because I ordered them that way, but because that's what you get when you order a kit. And even though the fittings are at the lowest point of the bucket, they are still a half inch or so higher than the old style. This difference actually raises the water level in the older bucket by, well, a half inch or so. Further adding to the problem. At least it did in my setup..

To address the root issues, (which btw are inherent in many systems) we use nylon window screen between the inner and outer buckets. You can get it by the roll at most any home improvement store. Haven't had a problem since.

Alright, there's what I know. Now, this is what I think... Although this system is certainly not without it's problems, it still has a hell of a lot of bang for the buck. They are versatile, in my experience reliable, and produce very impressive results. It's all in the details. A grow is a constant work in progress. I've never had one yet that couldn't be improved. As a wise man once told me, "If you ain't improvin, you ain't growin!!!" HahaHaaa, I loved that old guy!!!

Keep up the great work folks. I'm back quiet... PEACE!

[tinytoon]

Jski ty for the DIY nylon screen trick, that will be used during the next grow :thumbsup:

[avon211]

Better yet!!!! Go to your local paint store and get paint strainer socks for five gallon bucket size. They are used for straining paint. They come in 2 sizes I believe its a 2 gal size and a 5 gallon size. They are the same shape as an ebb and Grow bucket. They are about a dollar a piece. Hope that helps. Hey tiny sometimes I kinda miss that freaked out avatar you had. Maybe ya outta bring him back once in a while.

[tinytoon]

I will bring it back once and awhile but right now I'm working on a new one that should have everyone falling on the floor with laughter! :thumbsup:

[Zeffer]

I'll go with TinyToon on every word !

Yeah, pH stuff is a bit tricky with ebb&flo. Turns out those Rapid Rooters
i used for germination which got put right into the hydroton, are breaking
down into other micro/waste material and this doesn't allow the roots to
drink the nutrients readily...Action taken... flush flush flush ....Put a hose
extension on the return line, ( under the hood ) under reservoir lid, and into
a bucket or out a window....
As for the spare parts idea ! Well, TinyToon being automechanic knows
the power of this. Spare parts are a must. I have every-piece
of my ebb&fafafloy system, except the float switches. Extra everything. Back-Ups. As for the flood safety systems..." whats in your wallet !"
..Not much, so make your own out of stips of wood and thick liner for the
floor. If your system has 3-6 pods then you don't need more than,
30 - 35 gal. Easier to keep that amount contained until you get to see it.
So, far I've replaced one float switch. It was one of the fill float switch and
not the shut off ! Maybe someone has come up with a back up, stop fill,
float switch , on theirs control res. ??
But yeah, you gonna have solutions for your problems if you stick witit !

My PPM's don't raise these day cuz'n their in flower, so it goes down.

pH goes up, if i let the hydroton go to long without flushing !

One of the quick and easy ways to check ones plant condition with
ebb&flo is lifting the hydroton buckets up and checking the root
system. The best way to see how your plant's health is doing.
Then, notice the water they are sitting in ! ? All that decaying roots and
other matter are blocking your plants from drinking water first, nuitrients
second. That's why flushing is really tops props, in good healthy plants.

The other reason for flushing and replacing the water ( big res.) is because
as the stuff in the wet buckets / liner buckets, continues multiply,
plus with addtion of any sweets you may tease the ladies with !
adds to the break-down of your water supply, which all right if you watch
it, and attend to it...and still the PPM's are still normal no gains,
but as time goes on it could start to form a different, a solid material
we see as floating algae, tan colored goo ! Plants can not take this
form of nutrient, even though it's the same thing they live on !
So, that stuff and stuff we can see, unless under high magnification, are
preventing the plants from using up nutrients.
Ok, went on way to long here.

On this Thanksgiving Day, we are thankful for TinyToon.


TinyToon

[Zeffer]

MasterTooner, good evening 2U... I also have done this procedure
with the bucket levels and have discovered the efforts
are not worth the benefits. If i may pilot ! !
I have found, if one flushes the hydroton, by pouring pH treated water
into the hydroton buckets on a regular basis, after a couple of flushes, which can be done in one setting / flushing, that now the extra clean water seating in the liner buckets is actually beneficial to the plants health. There's something uniquely inherent, to this growing medium ( hydroton ! ) that does not allow rot out of the root system.... if the water is flushed on a regular schedule ! So, we hydroton users, have to check the roots, on a regular bases, til, we get a " feel " for the tolerance, or balance between plants,
nuitrients and water.

Personally, I've loved the experience so far. Um-a - first-timer with this
hydroton ebby & fafaflouey system and there are lessons at every turn. A total evolution of the entire hydro-grow system the G-Room is self, as one learns and grows from our rewards of our passions!

on slide dobro,
Zeffer

[Zeffer]

Greetings, ....nylon window screen....Please don't do this to your plants !
I did it and regretted it. Here's why. Those nets are NOT going to stop ROOTS.
Again, roots in water, especially hydroton ( medium ) hydroponics water, are not in danger. What happens with the addition of a mesh screen is,
it collects decaying matter, nutrients and rotting wants a piece of the action.
The addition of a mesh screen blocks the fafaflowy of the water and
nutrients, so you might wanna consider flushing with the pH, treated water.
Water that has a pH. around the high 5's to 6ish. Once the drain water,
pH. stablizes around those #ers ( 5 - 6ish ) then go back to the
nutrient schedule you have going.... But the flush idea is the most
important function of this hydrosystem...
I'm thinking of building something, that attaches to a pump / suction
to the drain / fill hoses, of the ebb & flo sytem.
But for now, i just keep my attention to the pH, PPM's and all the basics.
I have switched to the HPS setup for this flower phaze !
" She wore Lemon " as they say !

pH balanced,
Zee

[Zeffer]

Ok, real quick then i go practice slide yeah,

Action for cleaning / clearing lines. Cut a length of out-dated cable for your,computer cable project days. Attach a piece the length of your hoses, to unclogga ! Put one end in a electric drill and the other in any hose you suspect is cloggedda and rotor-reuters away ! Flush and watch all
the debris, nuitrients that have solidified on the walls of the hoses drain away !

burn,
practice,
zeff

[avon211]

Thanks for all the info zeffer very helpful. I changed my res and put plain ph water in for 1 day to hopefully flush my nutes out. My ppm started at 225 now up to 450. Just changed over to flower 12/12. No nutes yet but tomorrow will add nutes per schedule.

[Zeffer]

Hello Avon211,
I been in flower transition for 2wks now. During this phase
the pH, is much more active than in the 24 hours light-time. I'm finding
the big reservoir, goes " sour " within 24-48 hours ! Now, this has alot to
do with the respiration, the plants are doing at this time. The things that
contribute to this are, the HUMIDITY in the " G-room "
TEMPS. = lights and ventilation

Plus, the type ( strain dominance ) of your plants ! In my G-Room they are,
Sativa dominant, so my setup is to have the lowest HUMIDITY possible.
Keeping them on this " edge " is risky and uses more
of everything ( water & nutes ), cuz'n, THAT, is what makes the big reservoir
go " sour " ! When the plants aren't perspiring, they are dumping hydrogen ions
into the water, causing the raise in pH uh!

toke,
practice,
Zeffern

[tinytoon]

Avon your water starts at 225ppm??

[avon211]

Thanks again zeffer. Tiny yes my water is well water which is very hard. Lots of Iron in it. I had a water softener added to take the red out of my water. My toilets and tub would have a light reddish tint to it. I use salt brine tank which cycles twice a week. My water is as good as bottled water. Yes my ppm start around 200-225ppm. Is that a concern buddy?

[LOC NAR on probation]

Way Toooooo much salt !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get an R/O filter please.

[avon211]

Locnarc~How much money are we talking? If I put a Brita on the end of the faucet will that take the salt out?

[LOC NAR on probation]

It would help. anything to reduce the salt.

I'm using a portable just incase I need to move or take it to a friends to make water. This unit has been excellent. I got the 100 gallon a day one but a friend has the 50 and has no problem keeping up with changing 50 gallons a week. Only takes a day to make it. I couldn't find a better price for a portable.

portable countertop reverse osmosis drinking water system - remove fluoride, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, prescription drugs and more (http://www.pure-earth.com/pro.html)

[tinytoon]

It might help some but I dont believe it will help very much and sorry I have no clue what an RO runs.

[LOC NAR on probation]

The portable I have is 100 gallons a day for 169 and they have a 50 gallon for 149. Worth the extra 20 bucks to double the output.

[avon211]

I just don't know. My past grows haven't been affected. However maybe they would have been better. What effects would I see without RO water?

[LOC NAR on probation]

I would think with all that salt that you would have very early yellowing Like it should be when finished. Demimished yeilds from improper nute uptake also.

I had a water softerner before chlorine water. Had to figure out it was the salt then switched to county water and the chlorine is even worse here. Actually here they are using chloramine as is doesn't evaperate like chlorine so no good chemicals lost in the lines and letting it sit out doen't help.

Are your plants a light green or a nice not to dark but dark enough green ?

[avon211]

A light green though one is dark green very strange. But most are light to medium green. I would think leaf color would be strain related. Not to much yellowing of leaves very minimum.

[LOC NAR on probation]

Too light of green and the salt could be blocking nutrient uptake.
Too dark and they might be getting too much nitrogen in the mix.

If they are the same strain and they look different colors of green then it might be something to look into. I don't use ebb and gro I use Dwc right now but it sounds like the one getting darker green maybe getting more nute concentration. Maybe the water is not circulating back propperly.

Seems the bigger the rez the less you have to worry about the nutes concentrating. As your plants suck up water the rest of the rez gets stronger and stronger. I set my dwc up on a rez to make it easier. It's only 20 gallons for the whole rez change and by the time the plants drink 3 or 4 gallons the PPM's are through the roof. If TinyToon had not mentioned it I would still be trying to figure out why the plants are so dark green and no nute burn on the tip of the leaves.. It effects the flavor in the end too.

[tinytoon]

which plant would be closest to the rez, light green or dark??
Is color difference on the top, bottom or entire plant??

[avon211]

Well I have 2 separate systems going. One in ebb & Gro the other in Deep water Innovations( 2 plants in the same juice). The ebb and Gro seems to be on track now had nutes to high changed resivour. ppm is good now. The 2 in the DWC is where one is real dark green the other is much lighter but healthy looking. The darker is Crystal the lighter green is white widow. The darker is budding up real nicely the other is slow to flower very strange .

[tinytoon]

color difference could be strain related. Do they both have aprox the same flowering time??

[avon211]

Yes Tiny , You like my avatar Tiny?

[tinytoon]

Not bad Avon, nice and peacefull :thumbsup: