Betraying U.S. and Israel at the same time

[bigsby]

I am not trying to bait anyone here. This is a good read. From Ha'aretz. Read it all the way through if you are going to comment.
-------------------------------------------------------

SILWAN, East Jerusalem â?? Ever wonder what a future America might look like if the Tea Party took over? Try today's Israel.

That distinctive brew of left-baiting, Obama-hating, poorly veiled racism, clergy-driven jingoism, clergy-fanned derision of the Supreme Court, the Luddite insertion of anti-government bile where an ideology should go, a majority which feels victimized and discriminated against and threatened by minorities of indeterminate legal status â?? it's all here. It just speaks Hebrew.

In fact, for a far-right segment of U.S. Jewry which, since the rise of Barack Obama, has mushroomed in volume and impact if not in numbers, anti-government animus has taken what may have been an inevitable next step: finding ways to betray in one stroke the policies and, in fact, the national interests of both the United States and Israel.
For proof, you need not rough it to the pistol-packing West Bank badlands, with their Bible-thumping libertarian homages to Dennis Hopper-strength nihilism.

Just leave the relatively friendly confines of West Jerusalem and stroll to the city's embattled Arab half. At any given Israeli prime ministerial visit to the president of the United States, right-wing Israeli Jews and their American vicarious Zionist groupies/bankrollers/plaque recipients will be hard at work leveraging settlement activity to jut a wrench into the works of anything smacking of a glimmer of a possible peace, or any effort at reconciliation.

In this regard, no one comes close to the Grand Old Man of befouling Jerusalem and U.S.-Israeli relations by remote control, the retired physician-turned-bingo parlor mogul Irving Moskowitz of Miami Beach. For years, Moskowitz has played godfather to what may be called the Inpost Settlements â?? moving Jews into East Jerusalem enclaves of dubious legality but unquestioned incendiary impact on the Palestinian population and the prospects of a future peace.

This week, two days after more than a thousand Jews and Arabs marched peaceably through the streets of Jerusalem's Palestinian Silwan neighborhood just south of the Old City walls, work began on a new settler neighborhood in a particularly sensitive quarter of East Jerusalem, Sheikh Jarrah. The owner and operator: Irving Moskowitz.

So practiced is the good doctor at acts of sabotage by real estate, that the following Time article, now 14 years old, could have been written today, with the revision only of the name of America's chief diplomat:

"Madeleine Albright, Secretary of State of the world's only superpower, visits the Middle East and manages to accomplish nothing for the peace process. Irving Moskowitz goes to the region after her, and the next thing you know, the process is threatened anew with riot and rupture. Of course, it's easier to hurt than help the onerous business of negotiating peace, but that's what makes Irving Moskowitz arguably the most pivotal player in the Middle East at the moment."

To be fair, Moskowitz has a serious rival of late in the race to dismantle the U.S.-Israel relationship, Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat. Not to be outdone by the Moskowitz initiative, Barkat this week leaned on his diplomatic Murder Incorporated, the Jerusalem Planning and Building Commission, to approve the razing of 22 Arab homes in the tinderbox neighborhood of Silwan, just south of the Old City walls, in order to make way for The King's Park, a pointed reference to the assertive if at times amoral David of the Jews.

Just a year and a half in office, Barkat has gone to great lengths â?? crowned by a spectacularly damaging post-Biden visit to Washington â?? to insult the U.S. government and embarrass his own.

But the Silwan affair sets the bar at a new low. The self-styled champion of authorized construction, Barkat rammed the project through the committee despite grave reservations on the part of Jerusalem City Engineer Shlomo Eshkol, Jerusalem municipality Legal Adviser Yossi Havilio, and the city the department which inspects building plans prior to their submission to the planning committee, which, according to documents obtained by Haaretz, found some 250 defects in the Silwan plan.

The thought occurs, that it is time to call the mayor by the name he has earned: Nero Barkat. If there is one man whose fiddling will cause this city to burn, this is your man. Not Raed Salah, not Irving Moskowitz, not Khaled Mashal. Nero.

This is dual disoyalty of an even more profound sort. In putting demagoguery and pandering to the far-right above the interests of Jerusalem Barkat is a true traitor to his city, and a true traitor to Israel. His actions go far beyond harming the fabric of life in this city of intolerable tensions and chronic woe.

In his recklessness and tunnel vision, Barkat is undermining the very legitimacy of Israel at a time when Israel can least afford it.

Forget, for the moment, that Palestinians universally, and justly, view East Jerusalem as their capital. Forget the issue of whether Israel has a right to claim all of Jerusalem â?? a claim which, having earned the world's (and America's) resounding non-recognition, has left Israel as formally the only nation on the planet without a capital.

Consider, instead, the issue of whether Israel is acting as a worthy custodian for this sacred city which, more than any other, belongs to the world. As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel.

Mournful is the Holy City whose mayor is a shvontz.

See: A Special Place in Hell / Tea Party Jews: Betraying U.S. and Israel at the same time - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News (http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/a-special-place-in-hell-tea-party-jews-betraying-u-s-and-israel-at-the-same-time-1.298977)

[CovertCarpenter]

...Hubris.

The arrogance is breathtaking. They cannot see 1mm beyond their noses to see the actual harm they're causing to both Jews and Palestinians alike.

Can't we all just get along?

[boaz]

... Forget, for the moment, that Palestinians universally, and justly, view East Jerusalem as their capital. Forget the issue of whether Israel has a right to claim all of Jerusalem â?? a claim which, having earned the world's (and America's) resounding non-recognition, has left Israel as formally the only nation on the planet without a capital.

Consider, instead, the issue of whether Israel is acting as a worthy custodian for this sacred city which, more than any other, belongs to the world. As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel.

Mournful is the Holy City whose mayor is a shvontz.

See: A Special Place in Hell / Tea Party Jews: Betraying U.S. and Israel at the same time - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News (http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/a-special-place-in-hell-tea-party-jews-betraying-u-s-and-israel-at-the-same-time-1.298977)

yes, good interesting read. thanks for posting. I did not know that Jerusalem was not recognised as the capital of Israel. a certain "news" network always refers to it as Israel's Capital. :wtf:

is it just greed and money? or do some people really want to rebuild king david's temple and release the magic spirits or whatever? i just don't get it. The King's Park sounds like a casino or something to me. :jointsmile:

[killerweed420]

And so the occupying continues. Push them into smaller and smaller patches till they give up all hope. Sounds familiar. I believe north america was in that same postion hundreds of years ago.

[gypski]

And so the occupying continues. Push them into smaller and smaller patches till they give up all hope. Sounds familiar. I believe north america was in that same postion hundreds of years ago.

That map shows how the Palestinians are getting treated like the Native Americans were. And this is all after WWII. :wtf:

[boaz]

^ that's true, they are similar. both are driven by a belief in a manifest destiny or providence, too. its a sort of arrogance, really.

I guess some could say that because of this, we shouldn't be casting stones at Israel today, but the way I see it this is happening right now today with MY current tax money, therefore I will speak my mind on the matter and continue to meddle all I want. stop taking my tax money and then they can do what ever the hell they want over there. :twocents:

[RedLocks]

Good posts

[bigsby]

I guess some could say that because of this, we shouldn't be casting stones at Israel today, but the way I see it this is happening right now today with MY current tax money, therefore I will speak my mind on the matter and continue to meddle all I want. stop taking my tax money and then they can do what ever the hell they want over there. :twocents:

It's not just your tax money but also you political capital spent at the international level. And these to items, money (read economic and military support) coupled with political backing which make up a core issue fueling hatred of American in the region and beyond. Obviously support for Israel is not the only issue. But remove this issue and the appeal of fundamentalism looses a one of it's central themes.

It is good to see that there is awareness of these issues. That marks a big change from even 10 years ago. The more we speak out the more likely we are to see real and lasting adjustments to American policies.

[boaz]

great point, bigsby. its not just the money that we spend that is the real issue it is mostly the perception of us as the sole supporter of Israel's actions. we have become responsible for what Israel does without any say in how she does it.

The end result, our soldiers are being killed my the dozens every single week trying to complete their mission to wins the hearts and minds of muslems in our newly adopted countries. its madness. :twocents:

[Psycho4Bud]

From 1517-1917 Turkey's Ottoman Empire controlled a vast Arab empire, a portion of which is today Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was "mandated" to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France... and "Palestine" (today's Jordan, Israel and "West Bank") was mandated to Great Britain.

http://www.masada2000.org/bmand.gif

In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river. In effect, the British had "chopped off" 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian nation called Trans-Jordan (meaning "across the Jordan River").

http://www.masada2000.org/transj.gif

The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River.

http://www.masada2000.org/1947mapa.gif

The end result of the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence was the creation of a Jewish State slightly larger than that which was proposed by the 1947 United Nations Resolution 181. What remained of that almost-created second Arab Palestinian State was gobbled up by (1) Egypt (occupying the Gaza Strip) and by (2) Trans-Jordan (occupying Judea-Samaria (a.k.a. the "West Bank" of the Jordan River) and Jerusalem. In the next year (1950) Trans-Jordan formally merged this West Bank territory into itself and granted all those "Palestinian" Arabs living there Jordanian citizenship.

http://www.masada2000.org/1949mapa.gif

Throughout much of May 1967, the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian armies mobilized along Israel's narrow and seemingly indefensible borders in preparation for a massive invasion to eliminate the State of Israel. The battle cry heard throughout the Arab world was then, as it continues to be... "Slaughter the Jews" and "Throw the Jews into the Sea!" But the Jews of Israel, remembering 2,000 years of being butchered, gassed, burned and skinned (eg. The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the Arab rampages of early Palestine and particularly the Holocaust), planned and executed a perfect pre-emptive strike against Egypt.

http://www.masada2000.org/Pre-67.gif

After ONLY six days of air, sea and hand-to-hand ground warfare, Israel defeated all three Arab armies along three separate fronts, capturing the entire Sinai Desert from Egypt, the 37mile x 12mile Syrian Golan Heights and the so-called "West Bank" (including East Jerusalem and its Old City) from Jordan.

http://www.masada2000.org/1967mapb.gif

Usually when one side starts a war and loses both the war AND some territory, no one on the planet would expect the winner to give back anything! This not only sounds preposterous, it IS preposterous! But the Jews (I hate to admit) had such an insane obsession of wanting the world to love them that they were willing to give back the entire Sinai Desert (oil fields, air bases and endless miles of security buffer) to Egypt for a piece of paper.

http://www.masada2000.org/1982map1.gif

The Middle East war is not now and never was a conflict between Israelis/Jews on the one hand and Palestinians on the other. In fact, the Arab-"Palestinians", while currently the perpetrators of most of the anti-Jewish atrocities, were never a very important part of the conflict. In fact, before about 1970, virtually no one in the world considered the Middle East conflict to be one between Israelis and Palestinians.
The term "Palestinian" itself had referred to Israeli Jews back in the 1940s, and had been slowly deconstructed and redefined to refer to the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. The Middle East Conflict was always a war by Arabs against Jews, not a conflict between Israelis and "Palestinians." The war was repackaged as a conflict between Jews and Palestinians as a public relations gimmick by the Arab fascist regimes. These regimes had never had any interest in "Palestinians," in creating a "Palestinian" state, or in "Palestinian nationalism" before 1967. That is because Palestinian nationalism did not and DOES NOT exist. The Palestinians were a regional group of Arabs having virtually no cultural nor national distinctive traits separating them from Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians. They are all basically Arabs!.

The bulk of what are called "Palestinian Arabs" are members of families who migrated into the Land of Israel beginning in the late 19th century. Palestinian nationalism is a mislabeling of Arab nationalism. Arab nationalism exists, although it is closely bound up with Islamic nationalism and even Islamism. Palestinian nationalism, however, is a phantom. It is nothing more than genocidal hatred of Jews!

The Arab assaults and aggressions against Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968, and 1973 had nothing to do with Palestinians. The Palestinian terror campaign would itself be easy to suppress today and eradicate if the Middle East conflict were really a Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Israel would simply obliterate the terrorists and expel their supporters to Syria and Lebanon. The Middle East war continues because it is really an Arab-Israeli war, not an Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is also in large part a war between barbarism and civilization. In many ways an Islamic religious jihad against the Jews.
History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand Maps (http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html)

You can't post maps without something being defined other than "they're the bad guys". Lands have changed since the beginning of time like it or not...try doing the same for Europe once and use the wars as the key.

Everybody knows that Israel has over 200 nukes....just maybe it's the U.S. keeping them in their bunkers instead of flying across the middle east?

Have a good one!:s4:

[killerweed420]

And as you posted, between the the Turkish and the British empire building they obliterated the original palestine natives. They were there hundreds of years before the jews and thousands of years before the christians. Its easy to beat a people into submission when you just say they never existed to begin with. Then you can write history anyway you want. US as an example. Just move the natives to smaller and smaller patches of worthless land and they will either become extinct or no one will care about them. And so eventually you just leave that section out of the history books and everything is peachy.

[Psycho4Bud]

Terminology is an important aspect of the issue at hand. Since the terminology used in describing the land being discussed has been a hotly debated issue connected to the political problems in the land for many years, one must know the origins of the terms used and be ready to employ the most reasonable one.

The Romans coined the name â??Palestineâ?� during the time of the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 CE and the second Jewish revolt in 135. It is derived from the name of the Philistines, a group of Aegean invaders who settled in the area currently referred to as the Gaza Strip. The Philistines did not have control over the entire region in question for any amount of time, and the Romans used this renaming as a propagandistic way to remove all vestiges of Jewish identity, thus dealing a strong blow to Jewish nationalism in the area at that time.(1) The term â??Palestineâ?� has been used in the realm of Biblical studies for many years, however, only recently has the name become a politically charged term, making its use as a geographic term worthless.
The Hebrews - The Four Questions (http://fourquestions.us/judaism/history/hebrews.php)

Seems that "the original palestine natives obliterated" were the Jews and that was done by the Romans. Guess they were the ones that made up the term Palestine also. That entire area was made up of different tribes in which NONE was known as Palestinians.

Have a good one!:s4:

[boaz]

...After ONLY six days of air, sea and hand-to-hand ground warfare, Israel defeated all three Arab armies along three separate fronts, capturing the entire Sinai Desert from Egypt, the 37mile x 12mile Syrian Golan Heights and the so-called "West Bank" (including East Jerusalem and its Old City) from Jordan.
...

true, but my point is how were they able to that? was it devine intervention on behalf of God's chosen people or could it have been the billions in military aid the United States taxpayers send to Israel every single year? How does this fact effect our success in our many wars within muslem countries right now?

I'm not argueing one side has more of right to land than any other, I'm saying what is our interest there? I guess having 200 nukes there could be in our stategic interest but I'm not really seeing it and I certainly don't think Israel is holding back from nuking their neighbors just to please us. I think they are just too smart to do something that dumb. :twocents:

[leadmagnet]

I've been watching those people in the Middle East going at it for decades now. I'm at the point now of saying fuck em all. We in the US have our own BIG problems to deal with- not the least of which is a fascist infiltration of our system of government and the erosion of the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the principles under which this nation was founded.

I watch President after President wipe their asses with the documents we as a people hold most sacred. This shit has got to stop and we're not going to stop it while spending all of our time and resources sticking our noses into other nation's affairs. I know we are "not an island" so to speak but this shit has got to stop somewhere.

[boaz]

"The Levant and Egypt sub-region is the traditional political, social, and intellectual heart of the Arab world and is vital to security and stability in the CENTCOM AOR. Because of its history as a primary battleground between rival ideologies, the dynamics of this sub-region, particularly with regard to Israel, influence the internal and external politics of states outside the region as well. In addition, U.S. policy and actions in the Levant affect the strength of our relationships with partners in the AOR. As such, progress toward resolving the political disputes in the Levant, particularly the Arab-Israeli conflict, is a major concern for CENTCOM."

[Psycho4Bud]

true, but my point is how were they able to that? was it devine intervention on behalf of God's chosen people or could it have been the billions in military aid the United States taxpayers send to Israel every single year? How does this fact effect our success in our many wars within muslem countries right now?

During Lyndon B. Johnson's presidency, U.S. policy shifted to a whole-hearted, but not unquestioning, support for Israel. Prior to the Six-Day War of 1967, U.S. administrations had taken considerable care to avoid giving the appearance of favoritism. Writing in American Presidents and the Middle East, George Lenczowski notes, "Johnson's was an unhappy, virtually tragic presidency", regarding "America's standing and posture in the Middle East", and marked a turning point in both U.S.-Israeli and U.S.-Arab relations.[

During the war, Israeli warplanes and warships shot at the USS Liberty, a US Navy intelligence ship in Egyptian waters, killing 34 and wounding at least 173. Israel claimed the Liberty was mistaken as an Egyptian vessel and it was an instance of friendly fire, and the U.S. government accepted it as such.
Israel ââ?¬â?? United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations)

Which country supplied their weapons at the time....can't find it. I'd bet that it was a combination of the English and the French. You can thank the French for Israel having nuclear capabilities also.


I'm not argueing one side has more of right to land than any other, I'm saying what is our interest there?

A middle eastern foothold just in case of some sort of oil embargo by the Arab nation as a whole. Hell, when Iran threatened to shut off Frances oil supply Chirac got it voted in to be able to use nukes in such a situation calling it a terrorist attack on their country.

Isn't this a beautiful world?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56u6g0POvo0

Have a good one!:s4:

[leadmagnet]

A middle eastern foothold just in case of some sort of oil embargo by the Arab nation as a whole. Hell, when Iran threatened to shut off Frances oil supply Chirac got it voted in to be able to use nukes in such a situation calling it a terrorist attack on their country.

Isn't this a beautiful world?

Have a good one!:s4:

I do appreciate your frankness and ability to cut to the chase.

[boaz]

^ agreed. no doubt, it is a dog eat dog world. . . . and we've been having this discussion for a long time, hu? :jointsmile: I'm not really sure how I even get involved in these threads, I've never even been to the middle east, although I did live in L.A. for years. :D

[Bong30]

Hummmm Jesus was a Jew?? seams that jews were in the area around 00-37 AD

[Bong30]

PALESTINE REJECTED STATEHOOD IN 1947 (http://hubpages.com/hub/PALESTINE-REJECTED-STATEHOOD-IN-1947)

PALESTINE REJECTED STATEHOOD IN 194766
rate or flag this page
By sheila b.






ISRAEL ACCEPTED
IN NOVEMBER 1947 THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY VOTED TO CREATE A JEWISH STATE AND A PALESTINIAN STATE.

THE JEWS ACCEPTED THE PLAN.

THE PALESTINIANS REJECTED IT.

IN 1948 THE JEWS DECLARED ISRAEL A STATE BUT INSTEAD OF DOING THE SAME, THE PALESTINIANS JOINED FORCES WITH JORDAN, EGYPT, SYRIA, AND IRAQ TO GO TO WAR AGAINST ISRAEL.

THEY LOST THE WAR THEY STARTED.

SO THEY WENT WHINING TO THE U.N. THAT THEY WANTED THEIR LAND BACK.

INSTEAD, it was decided that Jordan would rule the Muslim stronghold on the West Bank, and Egypt would rule the Gaza Strip.

THEREAFTER, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip remained refugee camps for the displaced Palestinians. They have been described as squalid.

HOW MUCH money has the world pumped into those two places?

MILLIONS AND MILLIONS.

BUT it didn't get to the people.

INSTEAD, it was decided by the men in power to keep the Palestinians in squalor in order to get even more money for themselves.

THE PALESTINIAN people were encouraged to focus their anger and hatred on the Jews, instead of on their corrupt fellow Muslims.

ARAFAT became a multi-millionaire.

IF THAT isn't enough history to prove the Palestinians are victims of their own greed and corruption, let's go back farther in time.

WHY does anyone believe the land of Israel belongs to the Palestinians?

FIRST of all, Palestinians never ruled the land.

SECOND, Jews have lived in the land of Israel far longer than any Muslim has.

THINK ABOUT THIS: The Old Testament is a Jewish history book. They wandered in the desert and then they settled in the promised land, eventually building their Temple in Jerusalem.

SOMETIMES the Jews ruled the land, and at other times they were ruled over by conquerors.

BUT, through all of those Biblical times, there were no Muslims attacking Jerusalem or the Jews.

BECAUSE there were no Muslims. Mohammad hadn't even been born. He wasn't born until the seventh century, hundreds of years after Jesus climbed the steps of Jerusalem.

JERUSALEM is not even mentioned in the Koran, though Muslims believe Mohammad was there. They consider The Dome of the Rock their 3rd holiest site, built where they believe Mohammad ascended to heaven.

IN FACT, Mohammad died and was buried in Medina.

IN A DREAM, Mohammad, with the angel Gabriel, had gone on a journey to the alAksa mosque in Jerusalem.

MUSLIMS claim Jerusalem is theirs because Mohammad was there in a dream. And they have Mohammad ascending to heaven from Jerusalem in order to hijack the Christian belief that Jesus ascended into heaven.

THE DOME OF THE ROCK was built by Muslims on the holiest site in Judaism, The Temple Mount.

THE name Dome of the Rock is because the Muslim shrine was built around the FOUNDATION STONE.

JEWS regard the location of the stone as the site of the HOLY OF HOLIES.

THE HOLY OF HOLIES was a room, built in a cube, located at the western end of the Temple.

INSIDE the HOLY OF HOLIES was the ARK OF THE COVENANT, described in the bible.

JEWS TODAY pray at the Western Wall, closest to the site of the rock, because they are not permitted to enter the Dome.

THE ISRAELIS could easily blow up the Dome of the Rock, or deny Muslims permission to go there, but they've done neither.

ON THE OTHER HAND, even in the 20th century, Muslims desecrated Jewish holy places and didn't allow Jews to enter Jerusalem when they controlled the city. They also denied Christians access to their holy sites.

ONE LAST NOTE: Let's look at Jerusalem in 1845, since we have a census from that year.

THE JEWISH population in Jerusalem that year was seven thousand.

THE MUSLIM population in Jerusalem that same year was five thousand.

CHRISTIANS also lived in Jerusalem then, three thousand of them.

YES, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, there were Jews who left Russia and Eastern European countries because of the ghetto lives they were forced to live, and many of those Jews went to Israel. But they went there to join a population of Jews already there. And they bought neglected land from the Palestinians. They didn't arrive and push the Muslims out, they paid Muslims for land and lived side by side.

THEN there was World War II and the holocaust, and the Jewish survivors of the Nazi prison camps had no homes to return to at the end of the war. Their homes and all of their posessions had been taken by others.

THOSE Jews were put into "camps" behind wire fences while the world wondered what to do with them.

ONE thing those Jews had learned, the hard way, is that the world doesn't care about them.

THE WORLD didn't care then and it doesn't care now. Most of the world prefers the ignorant lie that Jerusalem and Israel belong to the Palestinians.

IT'S TOO BAD the Palestinian people have been used as pawns by Arafat, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the rest of the Muslim world. But that doesn't erase the fact that the Palestinians could have declared Statehood, remained in their homes, and saved themselves from becoming rerugees at the mercy of their fellow Muslims.

MORE WARS followed the first against the state of Israel. More and more land was lost by the Palestinians and neighboring Muslims. And the Palestinians have spent generations now in poverty and squalor. But instead of improving conditions in the Gaza and the West Bank, their time and money go to the cry of "next time we'll run the Jews into the sea".

THE PALESTINIANS chose to go to war and lost the land the U.N. had designated would be theirs. Now all they do is whine.

WHERE IS THE HONOR the proud Muslims speak about? All we hear is whining, "We want our land back".

WHAT LAND?

YOU NEVER had any land until the United Nations gave you some. And then you left it, you left your homes because you gambled and lost. You thought you'd win the war and get all the land, the land the Jews bought from you and settled and improved with irrigation and made a garden in the desert.

EVEN THEN, even after that first war, if you had been willing to make peace with Israel, you could have left your squalid refugee camps to live on land Israel did not claim. But you chose to live in hate.

FOR GENERATIONS the Palestinian people have lived for one purpose, to win a war against Israel.

HASN'T HAPPENED, NEVER WILL.

YOU had your chance, in 1947. You threw it away because you wanted more. Instead of building your own country, you wanted to take what the Jews had already built.

THE WAY you took the Foundation Stone.

SHOW ME anywhere in the world where Muslims rule and the people thrive.

THE WHOLE HISTORY OF THE MUSLIM PEOPLE IS WAR AND CONQUERING PEOPLES, MAKING THEM SLAVES AND TAKING THEIR RICHES. AND WHEN THERE'S NOTHING LEFT TO LOOT FROM THE PEOPLE, POVERTY SETS IN.

THAT'S MUSLIM HISTORY.

WHAT A WASTE OF LIFE.

[bigsby]

Bong30 and Psycho4Bud, you twist the facts to absolve Israel of any responsibility. I don't have the time to plow through all of the B.S. in your posts. Here are two examples of your twisted views of history.
PALESTINE REJECTED STATEHOOD IN 1947 As I have already detailed for another misinformed member, of course the Palestinians rejected statehood so generously offered by the UN in 1947. You would have too. At the time that the UN voted to partition Palestine, the Jewish populations was between 6% and 12% of the total population and legally owned less than 3% of the land base. Yet they were awarded 52% of the land base under the partition plan, and the most productive land at that. (See Arieh L. Avneri, The Claim of Dispossession: Jewish Land Settlement and the Arabs, 1878â??1948, p224., 1984). If established according to the UN partition, the newly formed Jewish state would have had and overwhelming Arab majority. The Arabs rejected the partition on these grounds. In this light it is not an unreasonable position. They called for a democratic solution based on national referendum, a democratic solution rejected by the Zionist supporters, also for obvious reasons. It is also important to recall that this decision by the UN was taken at a time when colonial conquest was still the dominant mindset. Psycho4Bud, in reference to the 1967 war you said:
Usually when one side starts a war and loses both the war AND some territory, no one on the planet would expect the winner to give back anything! This not only sounds preposterous, it IS preposterous! You are endorsing a might makes right argument? So if Israel were to start a war, in say, Lebanon and they were to subsequently lose all territory north of TA, you would be OK with that? I doubt it. Given this logic, the Arabs should arm themselves to the teeth until they are able to defeat Israel militarily, because acquisition of land by force would be acceptable to you, right?

More to the point, either you don't know the facts or you are lying in defense of Israel. Who started the war in 1967? The Arabs? No. That would be wrong Psycho. Israel started the war in 1967. Israel attacked Egypt. Israel was the aggressor. That's right, Israel started the war, a fact that the Israel lobby has worked hard to erase. Apparently it worked in your case.