Noob's First Grow - Advice Needed

[TreetopFarmer]

Hey all,

I've been around the forums for about a month now with research and such, but I finally registered because I figured I may as well share my plan and request advice to get it exact. Like I said, most of this plan is based solely upon research. I'm currently experimenting with some reg seeds to get the feel of it, but that's using a small aeroponics system.

Now before I start, this is a system that will probably require some money to build, but from what I can put together, feasibly it will run very efficiently, silently, and will most importantly force consistency. Also, although I do have the money to do this, I am open to cheaper options that keep the system about as automated as it will be described. Basically I want the system to function to the point where I could potentially leave town for the weekend and not have to worry about keeping an eye on it.

So here it is:

I'm planning on doing a soil grow (using 3gal pots) with two separate tents created by dropping panda plastic from the required areas to create the tent-like structure (I'm using panda plastic and not Mylar because I read somewhere that Mylar is very effective when mounted to a flat surface, but very inefficient when it's bent/crinkled. Whether this is true or not doesn't really matter to me, for the price and convenience of panda plastic, I'm willing to take the 7% increased reflectivity hit). Each tent will have a light-blocking zipper door for access.

I'll be growing LR (Lowryder) type 1's due to the relatively compact space in both areas.

Tent 1 (smaller of the two - 3.5'x4.5'x3'(tall)):

I'm planning on growing 4 plants in this area (meaning 10,000 lumens for veg and 40,000 lumens for flowering are required to properly grow, and because LR's are very light and nut dependent, I'd rather have more than less).

Light: 8bulb 4ft. t5 high output florescent fixture with 6.5K bulbs supplemented with 4 single bulb stand-up 2ft. t5 fixtures with 6.5k bulbs (total initial lumens = 50,000 - non-initial should still be above 40,000, but I'll only have to worry about that for the first week or so in which case they'll be veggin anyway). With the amount of use, I'll have to replace the bulbs about every 3 years.

I'll also be using two surge protectors which have outlets on them controlled by their own timers to control the lighting for me.

Ventilation: Everything is going to be created so that it is as air-tight as possible, which means that the panda plastic will be properly adhered to any fans and such to create a good seal.

I'm planning on using the AIR-1 atmosphere controller to control both an inline exhaust fan with a carbon filter for the air output and a simple in-line duct fan to pull fresh air into the system. The in-line duct fan will also have a fan controller to keep the cfm's on both fans even, and I'm going to mod it so that it has a free-moving, weatherstripped flap cover on the part of the fan inside the tent (so none of the stank gets out). The AIR-1 controller will activate when the sensors within it detect that atmosphere conditions are higher than those preset, and will thus activate both fans at the same time to filter in air properly. This system should be able to refresh the tent's air in a matter of seconds (and that's also with buying the weaker/weakest vent type fans out there).

Also, to keep circulation within the system, I will have a small 6" clip-on fan that will move air around mainly between the lights and the canopy (even though florescents don't get that hot, I need the air circulation to happen just to keep a better environment).

Temperature and Humidity: I don't think I'll have to worry about temperature with those lights, they should put out enough heat to keep it around more than 70F (in which case my vent system will take care of it).

As far as humidity goes, I'll be getting a 1.3G digital tower-style cool mist humidifier that allows me to preset the humidity to a certain percentage (so as far as the humidity setting goes on the AIR-1, it's basically a fallback). With as much as it will put out daily (which won't be even half of the max amount), I'll have to clean it and replace the water every 3-4 days.

I will have two separate hygrometers to monitor temp and humidity (just in case).

Tent 2 (larger of the two - 2.5'x6.5'x7'(tall)):

I'm planning on growing 8 plants in this area (meaning 20,000 lumens for veg and 80,000 lumens for flowering are required to properly grow).

Light: 600w HPS with a Hortilux bulb, 6" vent port, and an adjustable height pulley system (total initial = 88,000 lumens, non-initial should be above 80,000). I'll veg about 5' from the plants (they can potentially grow about 2' tall), and then I'll adjust the light as necessary for flowering. Again, powered by a ballast that will be put on a surge protected, timed outlet.

Ventilation: Same system with two differences. It will take a few more seconds to completely refresh the air, and the exhaust fan (with the filter) will be connected to the 6" duct hole on the light fixture with mylar-coated vent tubing.

Temperature and Humidity: Same system.

Objective of the Tents: I'm going for a rather discrete growing area by setting up tarp and properly ventilating the tents to create virtually no smell (I'll have air-fresheners in the room to help out as well). Each tent is essentially it's own, automatically controlled biodome that holds ideal conditions constantly to promote close to the best yield possible. I'm trying to make it so the systems are self-sustainable for up to 3-4 days without me having to check on/change/replace anything.

Nutrients (I'm using the Botanicare line):

Pure Blend Pro Grow
Pure Blend Pro Bloom for Soil
Liquid Karma
Cal-Mag
Sweet
Hydroplex Bloom Enhancer (might not need it, looked interesting)

My water will be kept around a 6.7 pH. My tap water (after letting it sit obviously) is very basic, so I use lemon or lime drops to fix it. I use the GroChek Combo meter by HI to monitor pH and ppm.

Plan of Action:

First I will germ my plants with an automated aeroponics system (I will be using the Power Plant Pro by Prepara; conveniently for me it has 6 seed spots per pot, so I only need two to germ my entire grow at the same time) using non-nutrient water.

Once they're germ'd to a proper size, I will keep them in the sponge they're already in and put them straight into 3gal pots (one plant per pot) with Miracle Gro's potting mix.

I'll then mix the nut water accordingly (when nuts need to be added to the water) and healthily water the plants. Then I'll be using water globes to regulate the watering on each and every plant.

My Questions:

Now that you all know what I'm dealing with and what I'm planning to do and how I'm planning to do it, I have some questions...

-Could someone please list/direct me to a general ppm guide for growing in soil (I'm specifically looking for a general ppm guide for the water which will be added to the soil; so basically in order to build up nuts in the soil at a proper rate, what should my water's ppm be on a weekly basis? - a ppm guideline from germ-harvest would be nice)? I've looked all over this site and many other sites and have not found a general ppm guideline for soil (everyone I see says to mix as instructed and don't worry about it...is this REALLY how it is with soil? Sorry I'm so paranoid about this, I'm coming from growing hydro/aero so this is a big change that I'm taking hard precautions with...however irrational it seems.).

-Also, I know for hydro/aero you should flush a week before harvest, but since soil holds nuts longer, should I extend that to 10 days? 2 weeks? Leave it at a week?

-Obviously I'm making my own fertilizer mix, if ppm doesn't matter with soil, should I just mix the amount listed on the back of the Botanicare bottles (for soil use obviously)? If so, how often should I be giving the plants nutrient water as opposed to non-nutrient water (I know these answers are found precisely by keeping a close eye on your plants, which is why I'm asking in general...I'm trying not to screw this up TOO bad the first time around; I just want a general guideline)?

-Also, if I'm using water globes (which, by the way, will have their water replaced weekly), I'm assuming if I should on/off the nutrients (one day nut, next day no nut), would I be safe in averaging the amount of nut put into the plants per week and mixing that amount into the water that will go into the water globes (my assumption would be yes since I'm using soil)? I'm assuming that I should be monitoring my soil ppm content in order to figure this one out exactly.

-Am I correct as far as how much lumens I need? Do I need less/more light in each tent? Is a 600w too much; should I drop to a 400w? (I might supplement Tent 2 with the same stand-up 2' t5 fixtures as Tent 1 if necessary...what do you guys think?)

-As far as the 600w HPS goes, am I correct with how high that light needs to be both with veg and flowering (assume the pots will all be next to each other with a maximum 4" gap between each pot - LR likes to grow super compact and plants will probably sit about 8" above the ground in the pots)? What advice do you guys have about this one?

-BIG QUESTION: Do you think this is a fairly decent setup? Does it sound like I relatively know what I'm doing? Give me your opinion. I want all the advise I can get.

I think that's all I have for now, if I run into anything else I'll post it. Please and thank you in advance for all the advice/criticism anyone throws at me.

Man...I need a toke after all that.. :rastasmoke:

[bigsby]

I'm in the planning stage of a very similar setup. I've done a few grows previously but years ago. I have been readying everything I can find and have built up a pretty solid knowledge base. I'm building my room in a basement so no tent needed although I will use a prefab tent for veg. I am about 3 weeks from building my room. I look forward to following your progress. You seem to have done your homework.

I'm doing a soil grow too and will be using the formula provided by stinkyattic in this noob guide. (http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-growing/127522-simple-noob-instructions-growin-da-dankness.html) Soil, nutes and such are discussed at length. You should re-read if you only gave it a skim.

My first reaction is that space will be a premium in the flower tent with this setup. Doable to but a tight fit. Why not just buy prebuilt tents and forget about the panda? BTW panda is better for your situation as it is lightproof. Mylar is not.

You should have no need for the intake fan - negative pressure should do the trick although there may be considerable movement with the panda film. Also, with prebuilt tents you could daisy chain the fan exhaust between the two. Not sure if that was your plan or not but would be much easier with grow tents.

Yes, your flush will be longer - 10 days or more optimal, 7 days at least.

Nute routine - go by the directions but also see the noob guide referenced above. Stinky covers that in detail.

Good luck. You are on the right path. See the sticky in my signature line for some good setup material.

[bigsby]

I re-read your post. I take back the space comments. Your space should be fine. Tight but doable.

Your lighting looks fine. You might consider LED. Lower heat, lower long term costs. Less to worry about (i.e. fire or burning yourself). I'm using florescent lights in my veg room and LED for flower. With LED your watering requirements are considerably less. Depending on their stage of development, you can leave them a week and longer with LED which you listed as an objective.

My room will be 6'W x 8.5'L x 6.5'H with a 2' x 4' section devoted to a veg / mother tent. I'm happy to swap materials lists if you are interested. Let me know I'll post mine here.

[TreetopFarmer]

bigs,

Good to know I've got someone else to relate with, and sure, go ahead and list your stuff man; we can keep bouncing ideas and grow logs throughout this whole process.

3 weeks?...nice...mine I'm not quite sure on yet because of money, but I would like to have everything set up by the end of next month.

As far as the panda plastic goes...non-see-through was the other thing I forgot on that note, thanks for adding it.

I did actually think about just leaving the room with the negative pressure and it would be fine, but then I thought that it would be deficient as far as smell prevention goes, so that's why I put it in with the fan controller (by the way, both of those products combined costs me maybe $50, so I'm okay with having a complete breathing system for an extra 50). Also, as you stated, because it's a tent structure (even though it will be held down at the corners), distorting the shape of it through negative pressure could potentially do some unwanted damage, so like I said, for $50, may as well.

As far as that guide goes for nut/repotting...THANK YOU!! I needed that SO badly. I'll definitely keep that reference handy.

Now about lighting, honestly, I never really looked far into an LED HID setup mainly because I didn't know if the technology was proven and if it was really more efficient (should be since it should penetrate into the canopy just the same). But honestly, that second tent's lighting could be changed...how large/how many HID LEDs do you think I'll need to put out that 80,000 lumen amount needed during flowering? What brand/type of lights do you suggest? I'd like to learn more about the LED HID route.

Also, quick question to anyone, does having a little more light than necessary hurt the plants or is it okay (I know heat created by the lights is bad, but how about having more than enough lumens)? Or should I be keeping a strict 2500 veg/10,000 flower?

[bigsby]

bigs, Good to know I've got someone else to relate with, and sure, go ahead and list your stuff man; we can keep bouncing ideas and grow logs throughout this whole process.

Here is my shopping list. Tell me what I'm missing. I'm going to use a 3w LED panel for flowering. More on LED below. I've already purchased half the stuff needed. Also, I'm building a little hydroponic cloning box. I'll send the details if you are interested. So easy...

Lumber / Drywall / Screws / Mud
Fan (240 CFM)
Fan Speed Controller
Carbon filter
Duct
Muffler (if needed)
Mylar
Scrog screen
Lights
Timer
Thermometer / Hydrometer
Trays
Pots
Ph Kit
Humus
Perlite
Botanicare PureBlend Grow & Bloom for Soil
TopMax
Unsulfured Molasses
Seeds
Tupperware for Clone Box
Air Pump
10â?� Aaquaculture Bubble Curtain
Air Hose
Plasti-Dip Spray On black
Clonex Liquid
Rooting Gel
Moisture Meter


I did actually think about just leaving the room with the negative pressure and it would be fine, but then I thought that it would be deficient as far as smell prevention goes, so that's why I put it in with the fan controller (by the way, both of those products combined costs me maybe $50, so I'm okay with having a complete breathing system for an extra 50). Also, as you stated, because it's a tent structure (even though it will be held down at the corners), distorting the shape of it through negative pressure could potentially do some unwanted damage, so like I said, for $50, may as well.

Wait are you thinking that you're going to use a couple of can fans to exhaust through a carbon filter? That won't work. You'll need a real fan for that. If I misread and you will use an inline fan on one end and the duct booster on the other then my only comment is to get a fan controller so you can dial it in properly. I understand that using an active intake can greatly complicate the equation. See this nOOb guide for a detailed discussion of fan sizing. (http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-growing/132514-noobs-guide-growroom-set-up-work-progress.html)


As far as that guide goes for nut/repotting...THANK YOU!! I needed that SO badly. I'll definitely keep that reference handy.

This place is filled with great info like that. Take a look at the top level forums. All start with stickies - most worth reading. See here for example. (http://boards.cannabis.com/growing-information/) Then drill down into any of the sub-threads for more sticky goodness.

Snippet

I'd like to learn more about the LED HID route.

You need to do proper research if you go this route. It is difficult to compare LED with HID light sources. HID has the advantage of penetration. Nothing beats it. Lumins are not so important when it comes to usable energy for a plant. What counts is wave length of the light reaching the plant. Plants "see" and make the most use of the red and blue spectrum wave lengths. So 99% of the yellow and orange light produced by the HID lights do not benefit the plant. LED technology has only recently becoming feasible. Beware, there is a load of crap on the market. There are also 10 naysayers for every believer. You need to find the right product and prepare for sticker shock. The initial investment is heavy. But the rewards are there - no heat, no bulb replacement costs, minimal electric costs, no risk of fire and on. When you take the long view the lights pay for them selves in a few years. Check out this guy's grow. (http://boards.cannabis.com/members/stra8outtaweed.html) It shows what can be done. Also see this one. (http://boards.cannabis.com/members/moody420.html) There are bunch of LED people working here who can better advise you on technical details.


Also, quick question to anyone, does having a little more light than necessary hurt the plants or is it okay (I know heat created by the lights is bad, but how about having more than enough lumens)? Or should I be keeping a strict 2500 veg/10,000 flower?

More light never hurts...

[TreetopFarmer]

Sorry for double posting. I just thought of a couple more questions...

-So I'm doing LR t1's. If you have no clue what it is, it's an autoflowering strain that has a life from germ-harvest of 2 months. Now how you're supposed to grow them is to treat them like seedlings for the first two weeks (2500 lumens per plant and veg nuts) and then for the remainder you treat them like they're flowering (10000 lumens per plant and flower nuts - for both veg and flower it's 18/6 light). So assuming this, should I be expecting to germ in aero for 3-4 days, then transfer to a 1gal pot after germ, then after two-ish weeks transfer the root balls to a 3gal pot? (sorry, just kinda putting thoughts down so you guys can make sure I'm thinking correctly :P)

-I heard calcium really helps during the flowering stage, but my question is in a soil system, if I'm using Pure Blend Pro Bloom for Soil during flowering with LK and Sweet, will it be necessary to add in Cal-Mag as well (I'm wondering because that is literally the only purpose I'm buying it for, so if I don't need it for the flower cycle then I don't need it period)?

[stra8outtaWeed]

bigs asked me to chime in here :D

LED's are awesome...they provide exactly the wavelength for your plants to make photosynthesis..building larger rootmass and healthier plants. My lights have 3w diodes that are stronger than the typical 1w models allowing more penetration and yields comparable to HPS. They use less electricity acheiving the same results..except i hasve found my meds to be more potent since switching to LED's...bummer for me:smokin:...they give off minimal heat therefore eliminating ducting heat out. I have been growing in a soil/coco medium but i think LED and hydro/aeroponic applications would do well together. :thumbsup:

[TreetopFarmer]

Wait are you thinking that you're going to use a couple of can fans to exhaust through a carbon filter? That won't work. You'll need a real fan for that. If I misread and you will use an inline fan on one end and the duct booster on the other then my only comment is to get a fan controller so you can dial it in properly. I understand that using an active intake can greatly complicate the equation. See this nOOb guide for a detailed discussion of fan sizing. (http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-growing/132514-noobs-guide-growroom-set-up-work-progress.html)

Maybe I wasn't clear with this...I'll break it down. I have an atmo controller that kicks on both fans at the same time if the sensors go off. One fan is a 4" in-line exhaust fan that has a carbon filter attachment and runs at 170cfm. The other fan is a 6" in-line duct fan (basically a metal cylinder with a fan in it) that operates at 250cfm, but with the fan controller I will be able to dial it down to 170cfm (so the intake and output are the same cfm).

Worst case, I'll have to dial the fan below 170cfm to create a guaranteed negative pressure inside the tent, but the system intake will provide major assistance so that it doesn't bend the tent inward too much. The fans will probably stay on less than a minute at a time anyway, so if I do end up dialing it under 170, I doubt I'll see hardly a bend in the tent walls.

As far as your list goes I think it's great. I don't think you'll need the muffler (the fans really don't operate that loudly at all), and I commend you for going more for the organic approach (with the molasses and all). Also, good luck with the cloning...me on the other hand, I'll have to force some seed growth in another area to keep me supplied. ;)

Stra8, all I have to say is wow...I need to look into this, thanks for the chime.

Btw, the double post comment I made earlier is nullified, bigs posted before I was able to post that whole thing, lol.

[anbesol]

i just read about 1 paragraph of this and I saw that you were planning on growing lowryder, and lowryder in 3 gallon pots. Hold the grow!!!!! First off throw those lowryders away, there pieces of shit. I just got finished on one of my lowryder seeds a friend gave me and I was so disappointed!!! With 1 plant under 400 watt hps in 1 gallon pot with co2!!! I only got .6 grams and the bud was the size of a bic lighter. I know others will scoff and say i did something wrong, since ive never grown an auto flower, but i do very very well on my real grows. I used Advanced Nutrients Connoisseur with them 2. Good Luck...and get different seeds

[anbesol]

heres a pic for you to see....again one FULL PLANT!!! it had about 6 leaves to be trimmed....and the flavor to me was earthy with a slight bite of tobacco. The high was quick and slightly happy but only lasted 10 mins... I smoke about 1.5 grams a day of homegrown... just for comparison

[TreetopFarmer]

i just read about 1 paragraph of this and I saw that you were planning on growing lowryder, and lowryder in 3 gallon pots. Hold the grow!!!!! First off throw those lowryders away, there pieces of shit. I just got finished on one of my lowryder seeds a friend gave me and I was so disappointed!!! With 1 plant under 400 watt hps in 1 gallon pot with co2!!! I only got .6 grams and the bud was the size of a bic lighter. I know others will scoff and say i did something wrong, since ive never grown an auto flower, but i do very very well on my real grows. I used Advanced Nutrients Connoisseur with them 2. Good Luck...and get different seeds

Thanks for the advise and the best wishes, but I'm going to at least try one batch for myself, because I saw another documented account both on this site and another site of a guy that did 6 LR t1's and he got 90g out of each plant he grew and they grew to a full height (and he only used a 400w MH/HPS switchable). Also, did you germ straight from the 1gal pot? If so that may be part of the reason why your plant grew small is because you didn't repot up from a very small container. Another reason is possibly the full time HPS could've prevented a lot of the veg growth, hence the small plant you got (which is actually good to know that you did the full HPS system and got that result because that's what I was planning on doing. This other guy switched between them and got huge results, so this might change my plan down to a 400w switchable with more supplemental lighting...or I might even switch it to a full HID system).

Not saying that you screwed up and that you can't grow good stuff, but like you said, you've never grown autoflower before and you only used one spectrum the entire time you were growing. Although I've only done research and have not yet tried this yet (thus why I can't say anything), it seems like if I give it the right light during the right stages along with nuts, it should grow beautifully.

Another thing is that even on their site, they say that the LR's are VERY light and nut dependent, which could mean that not switching between an MH and an HPS could make the entire difference on how large the plant grows (assuming nuts are correct).

If anyone has had ANY experience with LR type 1's or LR's in general, please post your advise. I plan on working with this strain for years to come, so basically after a few grows I'll have a very thorough guide put together on how to properly treat autoflowers in general and specifically the LR type 1's, which I will of course share with the site.

By the way: Stra8,

How many and what kind of LED lights would I be looking at getting if I'm trying to grow 8 plants in that second tent? If you can URL me to a site that has them and just tell me where to look through and what I'm looking for I'll be able to figure it out, and that would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks again.

[bigsby]

I hear you with the muffler - get it? ha ha... I have it there as an option that I'll add only if needed.

You should consider the clone box. Dead simple. You keep a few mothers on tap in your veg room and you're good to go or you take cuttings from your flowering plant early in flower and just keep a continuous grow going.

Also, is there any reason for the panda film tent? Why not just drop the $$ on a few real tents and be done with it?

[TreetopFarmer]

I hear you with the muffler - get it? ha ha... I have it there as an option that I'll add only if needed.

You should consider the clone box. Dead simple. You keep a few mothers on tap in your veg room and you're good to go or you take cuttings from your flowering plant early in flower and just keep a continuous grow going.

Also, is there any reason for the panda film tent? Why not just drop the $$ on a few real tents and be done with it?

Oh man, that was a horrible joke, but yeah I saw that.

I would do a clone box except for I'm doing LR type 1's, which are autoflowering, which can't really be cloned (unless someone has some factual info stating otherwise...if that's the case, when am I able to do it?). BUT, I can keep a male and a female in a separate area and keep pumping out seeds (potentially see if I can feminize them). But yes, if cloning with autoflowering is possible, PLEASE TELL/DIRECT ME TO HOW TO DO IT!!

The reason for the panda tent is that I'm not exactly growing in areas where a tent would fit...I won't go into detail with it, but trust me, it was just as easy to drop a tent down and use what was already there as it would be to buy a tent...I just saved some money and put a little more DIY into it (plus even if I wanted a huge 6' tent, the ones I looked at were like $500+ as compared to what it cost me to put my tents up...a whopping $40 total).


Now, as far as lighting goes, I looked into it some more (it's like I haven't been doing anything else the whole day...oh wait...) and it seems as if LED's aren't quite up to par in the flowering stage as compared to the HID's (specifically HPS for me). Though, they are apparently STUPENDOUS during veg growth. I'm thinking about getting some LED's in both tents for veg growth and supplemental lighting (during flowering), and I'll keep the main lighting plans I had (t5's in one, HPS in the other) in each tent minus the old lights I was going to use as supplemental light (which actually keeps my equipment cost about the same, but HEAVILY decreases the cost since you're using maybe 400w total as far as lights go for about a month).

I also looked more into LR type 1's. I was wrong about the 95g/plant output for that one guy's grow (touchè, anbesol...touchè), it was 95g for the whole harvest and he had 6 plants = almost 16g per plant. Thus, I might stick with the LR's in Tent 1 (for space reasons) and go with something else in Tent 2 (since I have 6.5' in that tent...may as well use it on some good 3'-4' tall plants). Unless someone else knows of another strain that stays relatively compact (or that I could prune to be about 2.5' tall...remember, I only have a 3' tall area in that tent) yet the yields are fairly well. I would actually prefer other options for the kind of yields I'm looking for (if they're even possible :P).

I'd like to look into something like white widow, a large sativa that I could prune down, or something of either sorts. I would LOVE suggestions on what I should try, but remember my tent sizes: 2.5'(w)x6.5'(L)x7'(h) and 3.5'(w)x4.5'(L)x3'(h), and I want the life cycles on each plant to be no longer than 3 months (germ-harvest, not including drying/curing). Also, I'm aiming for about a 70g-75g output per plant to supply me and my two buddies. What strains have you guys had experience with that grew to these expectations and could potentially fit in the areas I have?

With some modifications and some more money, I could potentially fit 8 plants in the first tent and 10 plants in the second tent. But to start out, it will probably be 4 and 6 until I can get the money.

OH YEAH!...I just remembered a question that I had a while back and could never find a straight answer to. So after the veg cycle, I know the plants will grow a little more during flowering, but the question is about how much more should I expect them to grow (again, just give me a general idea if I'm aiming to maximize my area, so final plant heights will be around 2-2.5' in the first tent and 4.5-5' in the second one)? Obviously, this is an important question for me since one of my tents is very short.

[bigsby]

I'm pretty sure you can find a tent to meet your needs for less than $500 but I'm not proponent of spending money that doesn't need spending.

Expect plants to stretch by at least 1/3 but it is strain dependent - Stavias stretch more than Indicas. But you know that. And of course you know that there are methods for growing tall strains in small spaces. Have you considered doing a scrog? It increases your time to yield by a few weeks but allows for taller varieties in smaller spaces and yields will be larger overall.

I believer you are right about not being able to clone auto-flowering plants. There are lots of other short, stubby strains you might consider. I'm looking for a good website that provides full details on different strain growing characteristics - like you see at some seed distributor sites but more complete. If anyone has one please post it here. I wonder if wikipedia could do that... let's look... seems not. Anyone?

Our setups will be very similar. I have a bit more space to work with. I'm looking to buy a tent that is 2'w x 4'x 6' tall. I'll divide it in two with a set of shelves. Up top I'll do my cloning and vegging and down below I'll keep some mothers. I don't need to do a continuous grow so I'll keep the mom's on tap. I thought about building the tent myself but I can afford the tent and I need the time for other activities. I'm planning to do 4 - 6 plants in a scrog setup. I'm going to use straight up florescent tubes for the tent. Nothing fancy.

[bigsby]

OK I found a couple sites that may be useful to you. I know I will make use of them:

Looks to be the better of the two:
KGB - Marijuana Strain Library (http://www.kindgreenbuds.com/strainlibrary.html)

And this one:
Cannabis Strain Grow Reports - Review and Rate Marijuana Strains - MJ Guide (http://www.mjguide.com/modules.php?name=Strainguide&file=reports&eop=search)

Also see their grow tutorial plucked from overgrow.com before it went down:
Cannabis Growing Tutorial - How to Grow Marijuana - MJ Guide (http://www.mjguide.com/modules.php?name=Tutorials)

[TreetopFarmer]

Well the other thing is that I kinda already bought and hung the plastic, so why change it now, lol.

Thank you for the sites btw, very very helpful and much more descriptive. I'd like to do white widow (4' avg. height is sexy, and 3.25oz per plant on avg. is even sexier), but I'm just hoping my filters can handle the odor those will put out. Now the trick is to find a seed vendor out of Canada that sells them feminized.

I have heard of this thing called a "scrog", but I have not researched much of it. Honestly, if I'm planning on doing WW, I think I can get a 4' avg. plant pruned down to 2.5' (I hope) putting out slightly less yields. I'm gonna go for it and see what happens. That or Northern Lights #5...AGH!...I can't decide! :(

Good to hear on the similarities, so you're basically doing two 2'x2'x6' closets with clones going at the top and growing 2-3 plants per closet? I like that, nice and condensed...and because it's a tent that's going to be so easy to monitor. What are you thinking about growing? I have no clue what a scrog is, but I'm about to research it and find out so I actually have an idea of what you're doing...either way, best of luck with it. I'm glad I'm not the only one screwin around with floros.

[khyberkitsune]

I've grown lowryders and had no problems dropping an ounce per plant.

What the guy above got was bad genetics, plain and simple.

[TreetopFarmer]

I've grown lowryders and had no problems dropping an ounce per plant.

What the guy above got was bad genetics, plain and simple.

I can believe that. Either way, 1oz/plant isn't going to cut it for my needs, so I'm thinking about upping it to either NL and/or NL x Skunk.

[khyberkitsune]

I can believe that. Either way, 1oz/plant isn't going to cut it for my needs, so I'm thinking about upping it to either NL and/or NL x Skunk.

Skunk strains are bomb. I have Hindu Skunk and it's a good yielder and has excellent medical qualities.

[bigsby]

I have one good size area to work with - 6'W x 8'.5"L x 6'.5"H. In that space I'll put a tent 2' x 4' x 6' or something around those dimensions for veg and mothers.

SCROG - Screen of Green. It is a form of training. You place a screen over the plant then train the plant to grow under the screen. This forces the branches apart exposing underside bud sites and leaves to light. Light reaches more of the plant so all of your bud sites produce better yields. This guy has a very nice implementation. (http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-growing/184054-1st-grow-would-like-some-help-90watt-ufo-400hps.html) Note that his implementation is curved upward due to space issues. Traditionally the screen sits flat above the plant anywhere from 8 - 12 inches over the seedling. The higher up the screen, the longer you must veg it as the plant needs to reach the screen before you start flower, or rather, you aim for the plant to cover 60% - 70% of the screen before flower. Again, strain dependent. A stavia will require more room to stretch so you would not want to fill as much screen before flower.

3oz / plant seems a little on the high side unless you plant to grow them to 4 or 5 feet. I could be wrong and of course, strain has a lot to do with this calculation.

[bigsby]

Yo Dog,

You might want to check out this tutorial / FAQ on soil mediums? (http://www.mjguide.com/tutorials/SoilandSoiless/Soil%20&%20soilless.htm)

[TreetopFarmer]

Oh okay, those dimensions sound a whole lot better.

And wow, dogfood's got quite the nice setup...and THAT'S what they call scrogging...got it. I might actually look into that for the shorter tent. Although, I'm only condensing a 3.5' average heightened plant, so pruning it should chop it down to 2.5' shouldn't be anything (especially if I can take a 7' monster down to a 4' mid-size through pruning). I dunno, I may end up not wanting to mess with that screen...though I would like to try it at some point which is making me want to go find an old cabinet pretty badly.

By the way, a big thanks for the link to the soil growing FAQ (essentially). It's actually a very good reference for those nit-picky questions I like to ask :P.

Average height of a NL strain is about 3'-3.5' with a yield of 2.5oz.-3oz. (found these numbers based upon 4 different grow logs and on 3 different websites...seems fairly accurate since all 4 grows fell within that range, but obviously it depends on how well you grow). Which means you are correct in saying that I'll probably have to go to 4' to get anything as big as 3oz. off of each plant, but hey...I got the room to do it so why not? I don't think I'll have to go as tall as 5' but whatever happens happens; if they end up growing that tall I'll probably prune them a little bit to get it back down around 4.5'.

Okay, so tell me if my thinking is faulty. In the first tent, I'm going for one t5 8-bulb fixture with 6500K lights + two 90w LED GrowUFOs to support 6-8 plants (depends on what I can fit in there). In the second tent, I'm going for a 600w HPS + two 90w LED GrowUFOs to support 10 plants.

Also, speaking of floro, are people using 3000K for the flowering or what?...if so that's a hell of a lot more lighting that I need..

[bigsby]

I'm not sure of this but my understanding it that pruning in general is not desirable as it removes bud sites. This is especially true once you move into flower.

You want to get some feedback on those LEDs. Once you've identified the ones you intend to buy post the specs up here with a link so that someone more knowledgeable than I can comment.

[khyberkitsune]

Just remember that you need blue for bulk production. The typical UFOs with the poor ratio of blue light versus red (usually 10% blue vs 90% red) will woefully underperform. Find panels with at least 20% blue for both veg and flowering rooms.

[TreetopFarmer]

I'm not sure of this but my understanding it that pruning in general is not desirable as it removes bud sites. This is especially true once you move into flower.

You want to get some feedback on those LEDs. Once you've identified the ones you intend to buy post the specs up here with a link so that someone more knowledgeable than I can comment.

Well pruning causes density. Now I'm not 100% on this, but this is what I've understood about pruning (again, if it's wrong, someone let me know and post the correct information):

What you're essentially doing is forcing the plant to grow nodes that will turn into two branches of leaves (which as you know, is where the budsites base at) plus the mainstem that will continue to sprout. Thus, you do this every few inches and slowly decrease the inch amount as it grows taller so it condenses slowly to the top (basically you're forcing the bud sites to be smaller, but closer together = more of them). So what you do is let the lower half of the plant fully expand, and prune for the top half of the plant to condense it to fit into a tighter area (which a 3'-3.5' squeezed to a 2.5' shouldn't be too bad, so I would have to grow the plants about 1'10"-2' and then prune for the rest of the veg cycle which will hopefully land me at about 2.5').

Also you can trim leaves leaving only a little bit of the leaf left on the branch (yeah...figure that statement out), and two more branches will branch out from the base of that leave's branch (I know this works because I've done it on the three small plants I have going now and that's exactly what happened). Basically what you're doing with this is (likewise trimming the mainstem) forcing nutrients to the site so that it forces growth.

And as far as LEDs go, thank the gods of weed for khyberkitsune.


Just remember that you need blue for bulk production. The typical UFOs with the poor ratio of blue light versus red (usually 10% blue vs 90% red) will woefully underperform. Find panels with at least 20% blue for both veg and flowering rooms.

I was actually thinking about that...so if I'm going for at least 20% blue, should I go with the 7red:2blue ratio one? Because I do believe they sell them in that ratio. And will two of those UFO's (90w) be able to cover 10 plants or will I need larger ones? I think I saw someone who said that they grew 5 with a UFO beautifully, so I just went off of that.

[bigsby]

Oh yeah, you are right about that. Fimming, topping, and LSTing are techniques that promote smaller, denser growing plants. It forces the plant to focus energy in the remainder of the plant. I believe they are all forms of super-cropping. (What do you do? Who me? I'm a super cropper! They call me super cropper man.)

I'm not sure that you fim or top more than once although I guess it could be done multiple times during veg. I really don't know the answer to that. You would not want to be doing any seriously trim work during flower except to remove fan leaves, lower and / or dying leaves, and lower stems that do not get enough light to produce.

[khyberkitsune]

In reality, you do not want just a dual-band light for vegetative growth unless you're dealing with very basic plants. Cannabis is more complex so at least tri-band is necessary for decent results. Two for ten plants would be fine. I had a tomato, five peppers, two cannabis mothers, and a strawberry under a single 90w UFO - the tomato and peppers got so large so fast they started crowding out everything else and had to be moved out of the closet and outdoors (needed the hydro bucket for other experiments.)

[TreetopFarmer]

You would not want to be doing any seriously trim work during flower except to remove fan leaves, lower and / or dying leaves, and lower stems that do not get enough light to produce.

Oh yeah, I was saying everything under the assumption that I would be doing all pruning/fimming only during the veg stage...no mistake there.


In reality, you do not want just a dual-band light for vegetative growth unless you're dealing with very basic plants. Cannabis is more complex so at least tri-band is necessary for decent results. Two for ten plants would be fine. I had a tomato, five peppers, two cannabis mothers, and a strawberry under a single 90w UFO - the tomato and peppers got so large so fast they started crowding out everything else and had to be moved out of the closet and outdoors (needed the hydro bucket for other experiments.)

Whoa wait, so do you think 1 would support 10 plants? Or maybe only 1 + a smaller 28w? 10 plants will be the max going into that area, and the other area holds 8 max. What would be the cheapest route to properly light each area? 1x90w=3x28w=6x14w. Thanks a lot gentlemen.

[khyberkitsune]

Oh yeah, I was saying everything under the assumption that I would be doing all pruning/fimming only during the veg stage...no mistake there.

If someone can confirm my prior post about the ratio of the LED lighting, then all I have to worry about is pulling the money together...and watch over the small ones I have now I guess.

Stra8outtaweed has panels similar to mine spectrum/ratio-wise and most nobody else has such a balance that either one of us can see.

[TreetopFarmer]

Sorry khyber, I edited that and reposted something more specific once I saw your post above mine. Take a look at it and tell me what you think.

Also, if you've found a good spectrum/ratio...what specs do you use?

[TreetopFarmer]

Excuse the double post, but...


Stra8outtaweed has panels similar to mine spectrum/ratio-wise and most nobody else has such a balance that either one of us can see.

I took some time to look at the grows you've done under LED's, and through the second one you mentioned you had received your newly designed lights...which I would love to learn more about.

A couple posts up I asked you a question about what you suggested as far as how much lighting I should use for how many plants (which if you wouldn't mind taking a look at it, I would really appreciate the advice...especially since it's literally the last thing on my checklist to sort out before I start hardcore buying stuff), and now I'm wondering if your newly designed lights are going to be on the market? And if so, where? I definitely want to use them, because you yourself have proven that they work.

If you could take a look at those numbers a couple of posts up and give me your suggestions as to what amount of lighting you think I'll need for each tent (LED-wise obviously, specifically for the veg stage and utilized as supplemental lighting during flowering), I would very much so appreciate it. Also, PM me about those lights you just designed...I'm interested to know more.

[khyberkitsune]

Whoa wait, so do you think 1 would support 10 plants? Or maybe only 1 + a smaller 28w? 10 plants will be the max going into that area, and the other area holds 8 max. What would be the cheapest route to properly light each area? 1x90w=3x28w=6x14w. Thanks a lot gentlemen.


A single 90w would support ten plants for initial seedling/rooting/vegetative stage. When it comes to flowering you'll want to double that or possibly triple that depending upon your room setup. I most certainly would not use a single 90w for flowering 10 plants, however.

If I could get dimensions of your boxes I could probably give you a much better idea of what you'd need lighting-wise.

[TreetopFarmer]

A single 90w would support ten plants for initial seedling/rooting/vegetative stage. When it comes to flowering you'll want to double that or possibly triple that depending upon your room setup. I most certainly would not use a single 90w for flowering 10 plants, however.

If I could get dimensions of your boxes I could probably give you a much better idea of what you'd need lighting-wise.

You gave me the perfect advise, because I'm already a step ahead of you ;). In tent 1 I will have a 4ft 8bulb t5 floro fixture with 54w 6500K with the supplement 90w LED for flowering (8 plants), and in tent 2 I'll have a 600w HPS supplemented with another single 90w LED for flowering (10 plants). So I think I'm set if you think that a single 90w LED for veg will cut it for up to 10 plants (my pocketbook thanks you).

Now the question is what kind of specs I need for the lights? I know you said that I'll have to get triband to get any decent results and that I should look for a 30% blue: 70% red ratio. The problem is that when I looked into the tribands, everyone posts what specific spectrum of light each of the colored diodes puts out, but nobody posts specifically how many diodes of what color there are on the panel.

Now this is something very crucial to my setup that I don't want to screw up, so I want to make sure I get the correct ones I'm looking for. Do you have any suggestions as to where I should look for the proper lighting that you have previously described to me? And like I said, I like the work you've done and I'm willing to support it, so if there's a vendor that offers the lights that you designed...I'm very interested. And of course I'll be keeping a grow log when everything is finally ready to go, which will add to even more documentation about growing with LEDs to share with everyone here.

And I know you requested more info on my growing areas in order to give me some more specific info, so here it is (btw, these areas are larger than boxes, but when relating to your typical "grow rooms"...they are two small places):

Tent 1: 3.5ft (wide) x 4.5ft (long) x 2ft8in (tall) = 42 cubic feet - Subtracting the heights of the lights and the pots, I have a 2ft tall area to work with (side room is there if needed, so splitting the power to two 50w and hanging them on the sides is a very viable option if necessary) = about 31.5 cubic feet. I might hang a wire grid in this one and run the grid up the side walls and run the plants up the grid to get a few more inches of growth...that or I'll just prune.

Tent 2: 2.5ft (wide) x 6.5ft (long) x 6ft10in (tall) = about 112 cubic feet - Subtracting height of the HPS and the pots, I have a 6ft2in tall area to work with = about 101 cubic feet.

Again, I'm using panda plastic, so you're dealing with that for the amount of reflection.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

Oh, also, I'll be growing NL and NL x Skunk, which I've heard grows around 3ft on average, so I figured I can make the plants in tent 2 taller to compensate for the shorter plants in tent 1. But on that note, if that's how I'm going to grow them, will 3gal pots be enough for the taller plants or will I have to move up to a 5gal? I'm assuming that the shorter ones (tent 1) will be okay in a 3gal. I'll be germing with an aero system, moving them into a 1gal during seedling/early veg, and then again into a 3gal when the root sytem is ready for it (and I guess 5gal after that if necessary...what do you think about that?).

[khyberkitsune]

"In tent 1 I will have a 4ft 8bulb t5 floro fixture with 54w 6500K with the supplement 90w LED for flowering (8 plants), and in tent 2 I'll have a 600w HPS supplemented with another single 90w LED for flowering (10 plants). So I think I'm set if you think that a single 90w LED for veg will cut it for up to 10 plants (my pocketbook thanks you.)"

In reality you'll get the same results with a 120w panel - my current two-bucket DWC/Krusty experiment is blowing anything I did under 432w T5HO all day long for veg.
"Now the question is what kind of specs I need for the lights? I know you said that I'll have to get triband to get any decent results and that I should look for a 30% blue: 70% red ratio. The problem is that when I looked into the tribands, everyone posts what specific spectrum of light each of the colored diodes puts out, but nobody posts specifically how many diodes of what color there are on the panel."

40% BLUE, 60% ORANGE/DEEP-RED in a particular response period for basic and advanced flowering growth. I have the patent so anyone copying that's gonna get owned in court if they buy a panel and copy it. I have the US Gov't backing me up as a potential supplier of LED panels, so I'm set for protection design-wise.

[TreetopFarmer]

In reality you'll get the same results with a 120w panel - my current two-bucket DWC/Krusty experiment is blowing anything I did under 432w T5HO all day long for veg.

40% BLUE, 60% ORANGE/DEEP-RED in a particular response period for basic and advanced flowering growth. I have the patent so anyone copying that's gonna get owned in court if they buy a panel and copy it. I have the US Gov't backing me up as a potential supplier of LED panels, so I'm set for protection design-wise.

Correct, for veg, but what about flowering? Unless t5 and LED are on par...then I may as well go full LED on that tent.

And for those LED's...so basically what you're saying is no chance of me getting any. I'll look for something as close to that as I can get I guess..

[bigsby]

I don't think that is what he's saying... rather, that you would need to purchase from a certified distributor in order to reliably get those numbers.

[khyberkitsune]

So far the flowering is proceeding better than the T5 lamps. Check out my SWC micro-grow in my signature.

I've gotta drive out to Pasadena in 30 minutes to go demo these at the California Institute of Technology. I shouldn't even be up this early!

And yes, you'd have to get these from a certified distributor to get those numbers and results.

[TreetopFarmer]

So far the flowering is proceeding better than the T5 lamps. Check out my SWC micro-grow in my signature.

I've gotta drive out to Pasadena in 30 minutes to go demo these at the California Institute of Technology. I shouldn't even be up this early!

And yes, you'd have to get these from a certified distributor to get those numbers and results.

Well that's the thing...if these are so new, there probably isn't a certified distributor for them yet (or am I wrong?).

But if there is a distributor that is authorized, then I'll actually be able to replace my T5HO idea and complete the lighting for both tents...again, this relies upon there being a certified distributor for these lights. Do they exist yet? Who?

Hope Pasadena went well, I crashed from the time of my last post until now so you're probably back home by now, lol.

[khyberkitsune]

Well that's the thing...if these are so new, there probably isn't a certified distributor for them yet (or am I wrong?).

But if there is a distributor that is authorized, then I'll actually be able to replace my T5HO idea and complete the lighting for both tents...again, this relies upon there being a certified distributor for these lights. Do they exist yet? Who?

Hope Pasadena went well, I crashed from the time of my last post until now so you're probably back home by now, lol.

Yes, Pasadena went quite well, though I goofed and didn't bring business cards. D'oh!

No authorized dealers yet, as no shops have called me back to get anything. So, as-is, I'm still the only distributor. :( Which kinda sucks but that just means I have to work harder at it and keep up my research posts!

You can contact me on my yahoo or AIM or skype - same name as here.

[TreetopFarmer]

You can contact me on my yahoo or AIM or skype - same name as here.

Sounds like a plan, expect a contact on AIM more than likely.

[khyberkitsune]

Sounds like a plan, expect a contact on AIM more than likely.

Sure. I'm awake until about 2:30AM California time and I'm then awake again typically around 11AM.

[TreetopFarmer]

Sure. I'm awake until about 2:30AM California time and I'm then awake again typically around 11AM.

Awesome, I'm usually awake between 8AM-1AM for you I believe.