HID Time factor manipulation

[scott9116]

I've been following the UV-B thread for a while. Cool stuff. Makes me want to get back into growing. But, what really gets me going is the Martian stuff and the light time factors for increasing tric production. I seems to me that, unless you've got a ton of cash for LED's or have alot invested in HPS setups already, it's really hard to get down to the magic 1.8 and decent yield. However, I have some ideas to get closer:

Fluorescent Supplemental Lighting: http://kinoflow.com has HO tubes in specific ranges. 625nm 420nm 450nm etc.

Desisti (couldn't get the site to work) available here:bh photo - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=bh+photo&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)
Also makes tubes in red and blue in both HO and regular flavors.

Buy two cheap walmart shoplights. Remove ballast from one and add it to the other one ballast per bulb should let you run the HO lights without spending a fortune. There are a lot of possible ways to do this. I've built fixtures like this in the past. I don't want to get too technical right now about the wiring. MIght post pics later.

If you have an overkill HID set up. Anodized reflectors. Use red or blue reflectors to help filter out the excess spectrum. I think using filters would cost too much light but having the reflective output modified couldn't hurt. I've run two 400w hps and two 4'shoplights with 2700k&3200k bulbs along with 6500k&10,000k cfls in a 2'x5' grow with staggered timing to control heat and to change angle of penetration (exercise program) with good results.

Just a couple things running through my head. Thoughts?

[scott9116]

Well this is what we've got. 2 $10shoplights ballast removed from one and added to the other. Didn't get pics of the wiring but I'm gonna make another soon. It's pretty straight forward red to red black to black etc. 2 kinoflo 450nm tubes. Bright!! Reeeaally bright!:thumbsup:

[Rusty Trichome]

I've been following the UV-B thread for a while. Cool stuff. Makes me want to get back into growing. Evidently so. Looks like you bought the equipment already, lol.

Just a couple things running through my head. Thoughts? Magic 1.8?

Not slamming someone's desire to experiment and spend, but, if making shit more complicated and more expensive is worth the added possibilities of "experimentational failure", I'd say go for it. Are those bulbs expensive and readily available? Are the bulbs safe to be around when operational? Do you recommend someone without electricians experience dick with the ballasts which hold a charge that can knock you on your ass if improperly handled? Do you really think these techniques and associated equipment increases trichs or quality, or quantity, or tastes...to the point of cost-effectiveness? By the sounds of it, you can get the same thing with a UV bulb, 'normal' growroom lighting, and some patience.

Anyway, in keeping things simple and being patient...you can grow one hit cannabis that would get the neighbors high at thirty paces. To me...mostly all of these specialized items and grow goops are marketing hype geared twords you opening your checkbook. Were the UV lamp expensive, likely I wouldn't have tried it. (but I did, and it worked for me...mostly)

Same goes for the LED's. Until someone with the big bucks can decipher the LED conundrums, I'll pass. Was using 2 400w HPS's, but I recently upgraded to a 1000 watter. I'm not at all disappointed with the purchase, as it kicks-ass. No filters, no bells, no whistles. To me...HPS at any wattage is proven, reliable, and worry-free. Same with the CFL's I use for vegging. Available at any WalMart.

I guess it's what you want out of your plants. I just want a consistent supply of the best smoke I've ever smoked and I get that without breaking the bank. You'd be hard-pressed convincing me that mine needs to be better or more expensive. ;)

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying the stuff you got doesn't work as advertised...just doubtful if it's worth the additional cash, in an attempt to make my primo buds..."magic".

[Dogznova]

It's not HID's time factor that I try to manipulate...HID has a time factor of 3.6 and it's a very strong 3.6, hence the (high intensity). Trying to get HID's time factor down to 1.8 (wile the light is on) is not cost effective at all...This is kind of hard to explain, but it's the plants 24 hour time factor I'm trying to manipulate. By properly using individual spectrums of light we can (indoors) create aprox a 1.8 time factor, But it requires 24 hours of light. Sun light has a time factor of 1.7 so you can see the reason for the 1.8 time factor. Sorry if I confused you..


Anyway.... Yes at the end of the UV-b tread I did start to talk to MAC about the PAD stuff. I wanted to show him were to read it..But what I originally started talking about was Clear Inc's for ripening and trich production....

As I stated in that tread.. I get better results using supplemental clear inc's. The cost if you buy a Halogen is about $4.95 for 100 watts and a regular clear inc cost about $1 each. In my garden i've gotten much better trich results with these type of clear inc's then a uv-b bulb.. Clear inc's have alot of 660/730 in them.......

Plus 660/730 is also PAD lighting and that just happens to be the light that pumps up the trics...NOT uv-b... Also 660/730 PAD lighting cycled properly has 99% synthesis potential, again the sun has 99.8% synthesis potential and HID has 69%.. So running PAD lighting 660/730 for 17 + hours can get some crazy results..For one it's equaled to 12 hours of Standard Indoor Darkness (SID) and 5 hours of Day Light.. That in it's self is a nice trick don't you think..

Not sure what your plans are with the shop lights... Are you going to add the blue to your HPS on time? If that's the plan it will take alot of them IMO to get HID's time factor down to 1.8.. If running HID... Look into Rauber's substitution method in the PAD manual, chapter 10... Hope this helps.:thumbsup:

[Rusty Trichome]

Are some strains more suceptable to the positive results, or is it like UV...hit-n-miss?

I'll watch and enjoy, but am just as comfortable doing what I've been doing. I imagine it's more important to some than other's, but I produce killer shit without having to research for hours a day...sorting the facts from bullshit, wracking your brain finding a hypothesis that supports your outcome, financing a potential...I just haven't got that kind of time or money any more.

The UV IMHO is a great way to imporve some strains production of aroma's and effects, but I gave-up on trying to increase trichomes when it was pointed-out to me about the genetically pre-set structure of leaves. I do appreciates what UV does for/to the trichomes though. Perhaps stunting the leaves gives the appearance of increased trichs, but the best effect of UV in my garden was the psychoactive results over non UV use. Bummer my wife is so sensitive about UV causing cancer, but that's the way it goes.

Simply put...changing my schedules, equipment and mindset isn't in the cards, but I do try and keep-up on things. :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Rusty... Very good points...I mean 660nm LED's are not cheap.. HID is a very proven lighting setup.

Most strains I've tried uv-b on has increased trich's but it's too hazardous for me and my uncle.. Then we seen clear inc's do a better job.. Finding out that clear inc's are mostly 660/730 explains our findings.. Until I smoked PAD med's I thought just like you HID was doing just fine... But after comparing PAD med's to a standard 12/12 HID med's, I can say there is quite a difference.. BUT yes is it worth the extra money/setup... I think for some it will be and for some it won't be.. For LED growers it will be a must..:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Are some strains more suceptable to the positive results, or is it like UV...hit-n-miss?:

No... PAD lighting can double the THC content in most strains and in some cases like bag seed it can almost triple it's content..

BTW clear inc's are NOT a PAD lighting...Just thought I would put that in there.

[jakester]

No... PAD lighting can double the THC content in most strains and in some cases like bag seed it can almost triple it's content..
Please....a link or something? That's a hefty claim.

[Dogznova]

The link to the PAD manual is one of the last post in the uv-b tread in the advanced section here started by oldmac.. The manual explains PAD lighting.. It dosen't explain THC though.. Sorry

[scott9116]

Wow, Dogz! Where do I start? I am a pretty experienced grower. I have been on a break for awhile. I have a pretty nice HPS/Flourescent setup. It has just been growin' other stuff. I' have a few amazing basil strains that I've bred. I'm a natural experimenter.
The premise here is to, of course grow the best that I can with what I can afford. The light pictured is my answer to LED. It cost me <$60 total. What kind of LED setup can you get for $60? I thought I posted a link. The manufacturers don't seem to have any warnings about exposure. I spent some time looking for a light source that is targeted at specific ranges similar to LED's but less expensive. I thought it would be nice to share my luck at finding these.
Yes, I had already ordered the bulbs to replace the tubes in my current setup that needed replacing. I use flouros to supplement the HPS. My thinking is blue and red is more useable light than the 2700k and 3200k. I'll keep the 10000k CFL's.
I have used MV for UV in the past. It did seem to frost things up. My comment on not being able to see much, was kind of an inside joke. I have vision problems that are completely unrelated to any light exposure. I've got to lay down for a bit. I'll be back. Thanks for the input everyone. I love this forum.

[Dogznova]

OK... You can also use t5's to target blue 420nm also. They are sold as fish tank lights. Actinic 420 Bulbs, they also have Actinic 460 Lamps. But if you have the choice for your blue light it's best to stay below 445nm. Fluorescent and t5's are ok as supplemental blue light sources. But if you don't have 440nm blue LED's I would use a small MH mixed with the blue fluor's for the blue light source. Of course this is providing your trying to do a 24 hour flowering and not a standard 12/12.

So my question is what type of flowering are you trying to do?

[jakester]

The link to the PAD manual is one of the last post in the uv-b tread in the advanced section here started by oldmac.. The manual explains PAD lighting.. It dosen't explain THC though.. SorrySo unless you can point me to some sort of study that shows these incredible increases in THC I am gonna have to go ahead and call bullsh*t on that.

2 to 3X the THC? Come on. Why isn't everyone doing this? I need to see something more than just your say-so, call me crazy.;)

[Dogznova]

If you live in MI and have a mmj card I can show you the difference.. But ya it can be called BS if you would like, I'm ok with that..The reason everyone is not doing it is because....They don't know how.. It's only been discovered in the last 3 to 5 years with LED's ability to grow with separated spectrums.. And it's only been public since NOV 09.

[jakester]

If you live in MI and have a mmj card I can show you the difference.. But ya it can be called BS if you would like, I'm ok with that..The reason everyone is not doing it is because....They don't know how.. It's only been discovered in the last 3 to 5 years with LED's ability to grow with separated spectrums.. And it's only been public since NOV 09.I can understand that but if you are claiming that it will double or triple THC content with no tests you are just spreading unsubstantiated misinformation about your beloved technique. Let's not become hype machines, be real here. Say what it actually does from your perspective. Say, it seems to increase resin production and from smoking it would seem that much more THC is produced...etc. In your opinion, it could double or triple THC content. I say, no way. Maybe it bumps it a few percent or grows more of the psychoactive components in ratios that make the high seems stronger etc.

But these are all just opinions until someone comes up with some lab tests.

[Dogznova]

Sure I understand your making good points.. Let me ask you this. Do you think outdoor grown med's have more THC?

[jakester]

Sure I understand your making good points.. Let me ask you this. Do you think outdoor grown med's have more THC?I honesty don't know. I guess that would depend on which outdoor environment VS which indoor.

[scott9116]

Let it be known that I've been known to take things too far. Rusty, I don't recommend that anyone do anything that I do. I'm comfortable with electricity. I build and modify welding and plasma equipment routinely. If others aren't they can spend the cash on HO fixtures. I can afford $18 for each of the bulbs easier than I can LEDS. Availability is important to me as I can't drive and can barely walk. I'm a very patient man. If the internet didn't exist I'd be fucked. I have lived my whole life with the idea that if you don't push things as far as you can, you will never know what you are capable of. I started growing under HPS years ago. When I began adding flouro tubes my smoke got better. I started using CFLs for side lights. It got better. I added UV, better yet. This is the natural evolution of growing. This could also be due selective breeding but every thing progresses.

Yes, it's stupidly complicated but not really expensive when compared to an LED grow this size. Plenty of work though. I'm hoping to get most of the hard stuff done before my next surgery. IF not it might be quite a ways down the road. Worth it? If I can double the potency of half of the grow Absolutely.

While this seems to be a large grow; My NorthernLights and Hashberry usually finished out about 14-16". My KC36, P36 and 8mileshigh finish out about 20-22". Southernlights is about 18"-20". I grow for quality not yield. Not a commercial grow. Just meds for myself and a couple others. SL= NLxHBxKC36xEMH. 36milesofhashberrylightshigh takes too long to say.

The 4ft disks turn once every 30minutes. The plants toward the center probably wont benefit and might turn in to cucumbers due to bleed over, the HPS placement might help drown the Flouros out though. I will place my most stable strain in the center. My Hashberry is pretty much bullet proof. NL and SL will live toward the outside and get the most alternating light. KC36 and EMH I don't think are stable enough for this venture. I didn't really have enough time to figure out the EMH before I took my break from growing, great taste but not all that powerful or hardy. But I do have seeds for all these strains.

First step: get some mommas going for clones while I start building the new flowerroom.

[Dogznova]

Jake...that's cool... IMO the PAD method brings the outdoor THC producing time factor of 1.7 indoors.. But again, It's my opinion that the outdoor sun light's time factor of 1.7 is the optimum range for producing THC in the first palace.. It's also my opinion that the sun even has a 1.7 time factor.


Hope I covered myself there.. I'm not trying to be a smart a$$..It is a lot harder talking about something without scientific data to back it up..LOL..Trust me I'm just trying to help.. But yes I understand your point..

Sorry... I was talking about. Sun light vs Indoor HID hps

[scott9116]

I can understand that but if you are claiming that it will double or triple THC content with no tests you are just spreading unsubstantiated misinformation about your beloved technique. Let's not become hype machines, be real here. Say what it actually does from your perspective. Say, it seems to increase resin production and from smoking it would seem that much more THC is produced...etc. In your opinion, it could double or triple THC content. I say, no way. Maybe it bumps it a few percent or grows more of the psychoactive components in ratios that make the high seems stronger etc.

But these are all just opinions until someone comes up with some lab tests.

Can we borrow your mass spectrometer/gas chromatograph?

[Dogznova]

Scott ......Remember PAD lighting 660nm/730nm cycles every half hour AFTER your blue/660nm lights would be on for 6 to 4 hours... Your blue/660 source's (on time) depends on what type of flowering cycle you want.. 12/12, 11/13 or 10/14.. So to ensure an even spread I would think you might want the table rotating every 15 mins...Just my thoughts..:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Can we borrow your mass spectrometer/gas chromatograph?

You would need to contact the guy's at Temporal Photonic's.. They got all the info you would need regarding how they came up with this (sun light) time factor thc producing info..

[scott9116]

OK... You can also use t5's to target blue 420nm also. They are sold as fish tank lights. Actinic 420 Bulbs, they also have Actinic 460 Lamps. But if you have the choice for your blue light it's best to stay below 445nm. Fluorescent and t5's are ok as supplemental blue light sources. But if you don't have 440nm blue LED's I would use a small MH mixed with the blue fluor's for the blue light source. Of course this is providing your trying to do a 24 hour flowering and not a standard 12/12.

So my question is what type of flowering are you trying to do?

I'd like to go 24hrs. But I will start at 12-12. I doubt if I 'll run the HPS for more than a couple hours, then fill in with Halogens. I might end up hanging a curtain where the HPS is. Who knows what I might do. Could end up with lasers.

[scott9116]

Scott ......Remember PAD lighting 660nm/730nm cycles every half hour AFTER your blue/660nm lights would be on for 6 to 4 hours... Your blue/660 source's (on time) depends on what type of flowering cycle you want.. 12/12, 11/13 or 10/14.. So to ensure an even spread I would think you might want the table rotating every 15 mins...Just my thoughts..:thumbsup:

Dang your right. I'd thunkit kinda inside out. Thanks Dogz. Of course the gear ratio will be adjustable. I realize that I wont realize the total potential of Rauber's methods. The spinning plants idea seems simpler that movers and timers and it simplifies automated watering, airflow, heat and light distribution. surpluscenter.com motors, timers, gears, transmissions just about anything.

[Weezard]

I honesty don't know. I guess that would depend on which outdoor environment VS which indoor.


Aloha Jakester.

Very good point!

And
Aloha Scott.
Mahalo!
Wish I'd seen this before I bought leds.
And the ballast trick, ya mon!:rastasmoke:
Good stuff, brah, subscribed.

Now, I'm a succesful LED grower, but I'm with Rusty.
KISS, is my main motto!
And cheap is my main goal!:D

The only reasons I use leds, is our predatory power company demands more'n fitty cents per Kwhr !:mad:
I'm a techie type and have worked with LEDs since the early 70s.
So was able to build my own for less than half the going retail.
If my electricity was a lot cheaper, I'd be using HPS.

Much as I enjoy,:weedpoke:,
Doubling my present potency would make my buds un-smokeable, even for this old steelhead.:rastasmoke:
There would be few survivors.;)

Doubling my yeild is un-necessary and would just give me a bigger surplus problem.
I already give away 2/3rds of what I grow.

So, I'll leave all further tweaking to Dogz and 'em.
And lurk, (I still find the science of it fascinating).
I'm sure it will benefit commercial growers.
And Pharmaceutical companies.

@Rusty
Dere you go makin' sense again.:thumbsup:
You earned the sig., my friend.
Best link on the web for us lot!

Aloha, Y'all
Weezard

[Dogznova]

Scott..I think it will be sweet project..I would like to see it in action...Good luck..
If your interested in the PAD 24 hour flowering...All you need is three timers. Then get a blue source 445nm and lower. Then you need a Red 660nm source and a Far Red 730nm source.. The 730nm source can be black lights. Each different spectrum goes on a different timer.. Example.. Blue source on one timer, Red source on another timer and a 730nm source on another timer. Sounds more complex then it is.. And for optium results the blue source need to be the less of the two wattages.. Example..100w blue source and 300w PAD lighting.. PAD lighting is what pumps the flowers up.. The blue light source is mostly for root and stem production..

[Dogznova]

Much as I enjoy,:weedpoke:,
Doubling my present potency would make my buds un-smokeable, even for this old steelhead.:rastasmoke:
There would be few survivors.;)

Yes... I currently have two people I'm a caregiver for and they don't like the PAD med's.. Too strong for them.. But two others with serous back pain love it.. So I say it depends on your needs.. Great to see ya weez..

[Weezard]

Howzit, Dogz?:)

Has been a while.
Have you got a current grow log with the results of all this tweaking?

@Scott, I'd just like to add that blue also triggers phototropism.

Put your blue light where you want the plant to point.
It's why we put da blue leds in da middle.
Just one more effect to factor in.:D

Aloha,
Weeze

[scott9116]

Thank you guys. I think to start, I'll set one half w/HPS and one with out. Leave my current HPS/Flouro system alone just replace the basil. That way I can get a 3way comparison. What will be nice is the flexibility of the new system. I could grow 24hr PAD SL&NL on one side w/HB in the center. While the other side is spinnin up the KC36 and EMH with flouro enhanced HPS 12/12. Possibilities are endless. If I cared about yield I'd could blast'em all w/more HPS time. It'll be cool. Thanks everyone. I need to get away from the damn internet or I'll never get anything done. Lord knows if this works well, that Northern Lights might keep me from ever getting anything accomplished:jointsmile:

[Dogznova]

Weez. I'm going to start a tread on 420 soon..

Plus weez I figured out why you don't run PAD... You already have a 1.7 time factor with the best grow light in the world... The sun..... Hell and your in the best part of the world for it..Your med's know doubt match up to my PAD med's.. I'm sure of it. LOL :thumbsup:

[jakester]

Can we borrow your mass spectrometer/gas chromatograph?I am too poor to afford an extra.

You will just have to send me this so called 3X weed!:thumbsup::D

[scott9116]

Maybe I can get Ronco to scale this thing down. Call it the "Medi Mini Spinny".
I've always thought those infomercial people are a bit too excited at 2am. I'd love to see 'em baked, blood shot and hungry like real people at 2am. They be eatin' right out that rotating pizza thing while peddlin' the "Mini Spinny" Comes with a free set of manicuring tools and a dehydrator for only another $19.95. A $50 value. Call now and we'll express ship seeds and Visine absolutely free. They just keep repeating the wrong phone number. The TV in my head is way better than the stupid box in the living room.:S2:

[seventhchild]

Doubling my present potency would make my buds un-smokeable, excellent point Weezard. If a grower is satisfied with his results there is no need to change any thing .However ,I get bored easily and so once a year I sprout 100+ seedlings of mixed unknown genetics.I usually take 10-15 into flowering with only 4-5 making it to full maturity .of the 300+ phenotypes/verities taken to harvest over the past few years only 10 or so were what i call "one hit wonders" .very often a plant with strong vigor, beautiful form,dense bud,and heavy resin production fails the potency test and is eliminated .Doubling the potency of these weaker strains would be an amazing plus for growers everywhere if it can be easily achieved with the addition of a few incandescent bulbs.I will do a side by side HPSvsHPS+incs and keep ya'll posted chap 10 is here PHOTO 21 Temporal Photonics's 1st Edition of The PAD Manual Photo Album - MySpace Photos (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewPicture&friendID=457659815&albumId=1376646&page=2.S).P.S. would LOVE to see how weezards Hawaiian works on my arthritis. waiting on legalization,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Dogznova]

Doubling the potency of these weaker strains would be an amazing plus for growers everywhere if it can be easily achieved with the addition of a few incandescent bulb,

No doing the Clear Inc method IMO increases trich production, flavor and speeds up the flowering time..Clear inc's are mostly 660/730.. It dose increase potency a fair amount but not double.. You need to run 17 plus hours of PAD lighting in order to a least double your potency.. IMO the best way of using clear inc's with an HPS is "Rauber's Substitution Method" Chapter 10 in the PAD Manual.. I also mix 27k cfl's with the clear inc's wile doing "Rauber's Substitution Method" works good in my garden. But that's for a standard 12/12 flower. Not a 12/12/24hr fllowering..:thumbsup:

[seventhchild]

No doing the Clear Inc method IMO increases trich production, flavor and speeds up the flowering time.Sorry...i had a brain fart from reading and rereading and rereading THE PAD.ahhhhh.....FEEL BETTER NOW....ok...welll...alright...ok ..ummm...where was I ???................adding incs to my room to test how they influence trichs!!! my original goal.Thanks Dogznova for the reminder .if the incs work as stated [i feel good about it] i'll try the Rauber advanced method this fall when i do my seed run.
[attachment=o236342]

[attachment=o236343]

[attachment=o236344]

[attachment=o236345]

[attachment=o236346]

[Dogznova]

Sweet seventh..I have tried 6 hours HPS/6 hours clear incs/27k cfl's on a few different strains AKA "Rauber's Substitution Method".. It's been an improvement on all of them..:thumbsup:

[salmayo]

Nice Thread. Just found it.

Thanks for posting it Scott.

I'm slammed for time today, but if you have any direct questions for me, please post them and I'll try and answer them next time.

Take Care, Sal.

[scott9116]

Thanks for stoppin' by Sal.:thumbsup:

[Weezard]

excellent point Weezard. If a grower is satisfied with his results there is no need to change any thing .However ,I get bored easily and so once a year I sprout 100+ seedlings of mixed unknown genetics.I usually take 10-15 into flowering with only 4-5 making it to full maturity .of the 300+ phenotypes/verities taken to harvest over the past few years only 10 or so were what i call "one hit wonders" .very often a plant with strong vigor, beautiful form,dense bud,and heavy resin production fails the potency test and is eliminated .Doubling the potency of these weaker strains would be an amazing plus for growers everywhere if it can be easily achieved with the addition of a few incandescent bulbs.I will do a side by side HPSvsHPS+incs and keep ya'll posted

Please do!
The temporal photonics stuff is fascinating to me as pure science.
As soon as it does a better job than sunlight, or dichroic lighting, I'll start futzing with it just for funzies.:D
The Coco/sunlight/Uvb manipulation has me buried in bud at the moment.
Got all my "safe to give to" friends set for the next 3 months too.
I need some folk to he'p me smoke, so's I can gro' some mo'.
Tough life, yeah, brah?;)

chap 10 is here PHOTO 21 Temporal Photonics's 1st Edition of The PAD Manual Photo Album - MySpace Photos (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewPicture&friendID=457659815&albumId=1376646&page=2.S).P.S. would LOVE to see how weezards Hawaiian works on my arthritis. waiting on legalization,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

No gotta wait brah.:thumbsup:
I got choke arthritis kine.
And some hash that will make ya say arth-who?
Come try it.
Odd as it sounds, you can sit on my lanai and smoke weed, protected by my card whether you have one or not.:wtf:
Funny laws here.

We believe in feeding and inebriating our guests until they say uncle.:)
And it's all downhill to da airport so ya no gotta buy gas.
(Folks who rent cars in hawaii will get, dat one):D

E-como mai!
2nd child

[scott9116]

Those are some cool laws you got there Weeze. It'd be nice to not have to worry about going to jail over medicine.
Update: I haven't got much done on the new grow setup. I have gotten a couple sprouts going though. Been quite ill and in and out of Dr's offices and MRI machines for the past few weeks. I plan on filling the hole in my brain with some herbal meds I think that my help. Dr. doesn't seem to mind if I smoke.

[Weezard]

Those are some cool laws you got there Weeze. It'd be nice to not have to worry about going to jail over medicine.

Yeah, that got OLD!
Still, I resisted getting my blue card for years.
Did not want to be on "the list"
Silly really!
Sure beats being on the "caught without a card" list, yah?:D

Drove my own car, directly to the hydro shop, parked in front,
gave them advice, paid with my public credit card, and drove straight home without watchin my ass.
It feels very good! :cool::hippy::jointsmile:
Be worth moving to a more compassionate state if at all possible.:cool:

Update: I haven't got much done on the new grow setup. I have gotten a couple sprouts going though. Been quite ill and in and out of Dr's offices and MRI machines for the past few weeks. I plan on filling the hole in my brain with some herbal meds I think that my help. Dr. doesn't seem to mind if I smoke.


Ouch!:(
Great thumbnail though.:cool:
Begs the title;

My brain. My brain on drugs!

"Dr. doesn't seem to mind if I smoke"


Very good news indeed.:thumbsup:
Means he's not worried about tracking cognitive functions.
That prolly makes surgery a good option.
You have my sympathy, that can't be much fun.

Aloha
Weezard

[scott9116]

Weezard, I'm thinking it'll be a wickedly stealth smoke stash box. Or atleast a "hide-a-key" that I can't loose but can never remember. It's weird, the surgery was supposed to on my hips. Ortho Dr. sent me to Neuro Dr. to check out some nerve damage in my leg before cutting. I have epilepsy and been 3yrs since last MRI and I been feelin' pretty bad (vertigo, equilibrium probs, tired, very very weak) for a while. MRI my head just in case. So, my hips are still killing me and now it seems like hip surgery is not in the cards anytime soon 'till nerve damage gets better. Head feels no pain. Just found the Cerebellular Ataxia on Friday. Neuro Dr. seems confused as I should be. LOL. I bet this means "We're gonna have to do some more tests." I've come to learn that testing always means more tests. Enough off topic crap.

I haven't been giving the veg stage of growth much thought. I normally pop seeds under 2700kCFLs & 6500kCFLs 1:2 ratio w/ a couple red party lights. Normally veg under 6500kCFLs or tubes. Mothers under 6500k CFLs. As I recall I was running a few 2700k with the mothers but pulled them as I was having trouble with some moms trying to flower at 18/6 and even at 20/4. This was causing really long recovery time after taking clones. I tried 24hrs but didn't like the results. Seemed clones took longer to root and plants just didn't seem healthy.

Rauber's simple 18/6 method boasts better growth per watt. But what about overly eager strains? Is there more or less chance of premature flowering of mothers with this method? More importantly does it offer increased medical concentrations in the finished product? Does it actually speed up growth? Stretch? I wouldn't mind a little more speed on moms so I can keep fewer mothers and get the same amount of clones. Doesn't seem to be enough data on veg. I have to admit that 90% of my efforts were concentrated on flower. Beginning to wonder if I could be missing something though.

[Weezard]

Weezard, I'm thinking it'll be a wickedly stealth smoke stash box. Or atleast a "hide-a-key" that I can't lose but can never remember. It's weird, the surgery was supposed to on my hips. Ortho Dr. sent me to Neuro Dr. to check out some nerve damage in my leg before cutting. I have epilepsy and been 3yrs since last MRI and I been feelin' pretty bad (vertigo, equilibrium probs, tired, very very weak) for a while. MRI my head just in case. So, my hips are still killing me and now it seems like hip surgery is not in the cards anytime soon 'till nerve damage gets better.

Call me gypsy doctor, but, lemme tell ya a little tale.
Also had "nerve damage" and stabbing pains in both hips.
Did all the usual, including cortisone shot to the hip joints.
Nothing helped.
Well, actually, Anti-inflammatorys, noteably, Aleve, helped.

After years of pain and frustration with the medical profession, I had occasion to apply an ice pack, to my lower back.
The burning, stabbing, hip pains stopped!:)
The pain was being referred by a pinched nerve.
It had naught to do with my hip joints
It was actually a back problem.
A good doctor should have caught that, because it was bi-lateral, treatment applied to the hip joint was ineffective, and the tops of my feet "burned and tingled".
I'm just sayin'...
Things aren't always what they seem.
People are, um "un-equally talented".
Get a second and third opinion, before anybody starts cutting anything, yah?.


Head feels no pain. Just found the Cerebellular Ataxia on Friday. Neuro Dr. seems confused as I should be. LOL. I bet this means "We're gonna have to do some more tests." I've come to learn that testing always means more tests. Enough off topic crap.

I haven't been giving the veg stage of growth much thought. I normally pop seeds under 2700kCFLs & 6500kCFLs 1:2 ratio w/ a couple red party lights. Normally veg under 6500kCFLs or tubes. Mothers under 6500k CFLs. As I recall I was running a few 2700k with the mothers but pulled them as I was having trouble with some moms trying to flower at 18/6 and even at 20/4. This was causing really long recovery time after taking clones. I tried 24hrs but didn't like the results. Seemed clones took longer to root and plants just didn't seem healthy.

Agreed.
Had the same take.
24 hr's jus' not right for mos' critters.
And 18/6 does seem to be the sweet spot for cannabis..

Rauber's simple 18/6 method boasts better growth per watt. But what about overly eager strains? Is there more or less chance of premature flowering of mothers with this method?

Ah dunno.
Kinda hopin' that you lot sort that all out.

More importantly does it offer increased medical concentrations in the finished product? Does it actually speed up growth? Stretch? I wouldn't mind a little more speed on moms so I can keep fewer mothers and get the same amount of clones. Doesn't seem to be enough data on veg. I have to admit that 90% of my efforts were concentrated on flower. Beginning to wonder if I could be missing something though.

No doubt!
We're always missing some kine something.:)
Question is, are we missing something important?:D

You can increase medical concentrations by withholding UVb until just before harvest.

You can control stretch by changing the R:B at the proper time.

I'll leave the speeding up to you guys, I have not been able to do that.
I'm in no hurry.:rastasmoke:
But I am keen to learn.
So, I'll jus' lurk about on the ceiling if nobody minds.

Aloha,
Weeze

[stra8outtaWeed]

good stuff here~gotta luv it! subscribed :thumbsup:

[scott9116]

Good advice Weez. I'm gonna try to get a few other Dr.s to look at these MRI images. Problem is there aren't any neuro docs taking new patients in my area. Might try Emailing the pics to a few places. Maybe, if I'm interesting enough... LOL

I suppose that after the babies get bigger and I have enough of them the experiments will start at veg. The speed thing isn't all that important to me just a way to have less moms to look after. I'm thinking that having fewer strains to deal with might simplify things, but some can't handle the crushing heavy indicas like NL and HB (might get even get meaner now). One guy hated the EMH coconut flavor. One thing is for sure, myself and the few other mmj users I know hate having to mess with drug dealers.

[scott9116]

Welcome Str8. Hopefully we can all learn something here.

[Dogznova]

Rauber's simple 18/6 method boasts better growth per watt.

This method uses two timers..One for the blue (445nm and lower) and one for the red (660nm). Very simple IMO.

The blue timer stays on the whole 18 hours. The red timer cycles on and off every half hour.So you have red/blue then just blue then red/blue and so on. Also you start the red 660nm timer 15 mins after your blue timer starts.That schedule makes it so the red spectrum goes off 15 min before the 18 hours of blue goes off. This gives your plants 15 mins of blue 445nm and lower spectrum just before they go to bed . No 730nm spectrum is used in this veg method so no stretch is involved..

Now.... knowing that blue LED's (445nm and lower) creates a very compact plant structure and 660 doesn't cause stretch.. What you end up with is a very strong structured plant with excellent growth..

Sal will answer and make my post seem elementary...LOL:thumbsup:

[scott9116]

I assume that the blue period could be extended to 19 or 20 hours if I have mothers that try to flower? Or does that defeat the point of using the method? Or does the method tame the horny girls?

[Dogznova]

I assume that the blue period could be extended to 19 or 20 hours if I have mothers that try to flower? Or does that defeat the point of using the method? Or does the method tame the horny girls?

Yes, you are correct.. You can go 18/19/20..ect..As far as horny girls goes. What usually tames them is a longer Rauber's simple method.. So ya 19 or 20 hours of blue time will tame the semi-auto flower moms.. Hope that helps..:thumbsup:

[seventhchild]

No gotta wait brah.:thumbsup:
I got choke arthritis kine.
And some hash that will make ya say arth-who?
Come try it.I Thank You for the kind invite.You've made me feel welcome both at your home and on this forum . May your cup always be full.

[seventhchild]

somewhere in these threads it seems i read that an incan blacklight would be safer to use as a SID nightlight than a green incan.can ya'll explain this?

[Dogznova]

Black lights are the only incandescent light bulbs that are as close to the 730nm (only) spectrum you can get.

Incandescent black lights are actually a form of Standard Outdoor Darkness (SOD). So yes they can be used as a flowering night light.. BUT inc black lights (only) during your 12/12 flowering darkness will cause unwanted stretch for sure. After the stretch phase is over however then black lights (only) can be used for some SPEED, but not very efficiently IMO...Inc black lights have a time factor of aprox .9 and are very fast as far as spectrums go because they give off mostly 730nm.

IMO you need to be careful about adding speed to your normal 12/12 flowering (dark time)..To much speed will cause your lighting schedule to go from a 12/12 to a 10/14 type of flowering in a heartbeat especially if your using HID. So a little goes a long way..It's ok to do it at the end of a normal 12/12 type of flower, maybe for the last two or three weeks. But again it's not the most efficient way of adding speed to the flowering time IMO unless your doing a 24/12 type of flowering. For every hour of black lights (only) used during your normal flowering (dark time) you will get aprox 1.1 hours worth of SID darkness. So using black lights for let's say 5 hours will give you aprox 5.5 hours of SID. And using them for 12 hours will give you aprox 13.3 hours of SID darkness. So ya they work in a normal 12/12 flower if you know what your doing with them... Hope that helps ya...

The funny thing about green inc's is.. They will make your girls come out of flowering unless you use a filter with them. The only spectrums that work for the dark phase of a flowering cycle is 530nm and above. If I'm not mistaken green inc's fall below this range. So they can be used but I think you will need to use a filter with them.. Again not worth it..

Is that the answer you were looking for or no..:thumbsup:

[scott9116]

Alright, I'm gonna have to change some plans. B&Hphoto shipped me the wrong bulbs. On the other hand the ones the sent are much more expensive than what I ordered. Actually, Desmar B&H's supplier sent German made Osram L58W60 five red and one blue. Very hard to get in the US if you actually try. Us equivalent that I've found are from Wildfire, Inc. - F60T8/B - Lamp, FL T8, Blue, 60W (http://www.wildfirefx.com/wfi/amazing/itemdesc.asp?ic=142%2D001&eq=&Tp=) At $80 each. I'm thinking Osram might be the actual manufacturer. I paid for Desisti brand tubes $18 each. Problem is these are 60" long. Therefore, I must modify everything. You must always pay for good fortune. Specs: red 3800Lm 658nm peak blue 1600lm 421nm peak. Not a ton of actual lumens, I know but they should all be usable. I still have 2 4' HO 625nm red. 2 4' HO 420nm blue & 2 4' HO 450nm blue all Kinoflo brand unsure of lumen output but they be bright. All together 810watts Flouropower. Guessing about 40,000 lumens at the abusolute minimum (Assuming the KinoFlowBLues are comparable to the Osram). I think they are much brighter that 1600lm though. Adding all this up I might have been better off with LED's.lol. I got the gearbox, gear motor and bearings to turn the tables which all has to change now.:mad:

[seventhchild]

Black lights are the only incandescent light bulbs that are as close to the 730nm (only) spectrum you can get.

Incandescent black lights are actually a form of Standard Outdoor Darkness (SOD). So yes they can be used as a flowering night light.. BUT inc black lights (only) during your 12/12 flowering darkness will cause unwanted stretch for sure. After the stretch phase is over however then black lights (only) can be used for some SPEED, but not very efficiently IMO...Inc black lights have a time factor of aprox .9 and are very fast as far as spectrums go because they give off mostly 730nm.

IMO you need to be careful about adding speed to your normal 12/12 flowering (dark time)..To much speed will cause your lighting schedule to go from a 12/12 to a 10/14 type of flowering in a heartbeat especially if your using HID. So a little goes a long way..It's ok to do it at the end of a normal 12/12 type of flower, maybe for the last two or three weeks. But again it's not the most efficient way of adding speed to the flowering time IMO unless your doing a 24/12 type of flowering. For every hour of black lights (only) used during your normal flowering (dark time) you will get aprox 1.1 hours worth of SID darkness. So using black lights for let's say 5 hours will give you aprox 5.5 hours of SID. And using them for 12 hours will give you aprox 13.3 hours of SID darkness. So ya they work in a normal 12/12 flower if you know what your doing with them... Hope that helps ya...

The funny thing about green inc's is.. They will make your girls come out of flowering unless you use a filter with them. The only spectrums that work for the dark phase of a flowering cycle is 530nm and above. If I'm not mistaken green inc's fall below this range. So they can be used but I think you will need to use a filter with them.. Again not worth it..

Is that the answer you were looking for or no..:thumbsup:yes , thats the info.....and than some...Thank You

[scott9116]

Sal and Dogs. What kind of Light intensity levels are you running? PAD manual has everything listed in watts per sqmeter based on canopy depth. For my little 14-18" plants I'd assume around 200w per sqmeter going by the manual. Is this based on LED lumens per watt? What about HPS and halogens? Is there another way to calculate this: Chlorophyll Absorbance Spectra CAS, Action Spectra for Photosynthesis ASP, Quantum Yield Curve, PPF, PPFD? Just trying to find the best way to setup my LED wannabe Fluoro tubes. I find the PAD manual a little vague in this area. Total combined input watts versus actual light intensity varies in a huge way even between different LED's. I assume Rauber must use a meter to actually calculate this but doesn't specify the scale that he uses. I know, I know experimentation but like most humans I'm inherently lazy and hate to repeat work that has already been done, especially by someone smarter than myself.:upsidedow

[salmayo]

Sal and Dogs. What kind of Light intensity levels are you running? PAD manual has everything listed in watts per sqmeter based on canopy depth. For my little 14-18" plants I'd assume around 200w per sqmeter going by the manual. Is this based on LED lumens per watt? What about HPS and halogens? Is there another way to calculate this: Chlorophyll Absorbance Spectra CAS, Action Spectra for Photosynthesis ASP, Quantum Yield Curve, PPF, PPFD? Just trying to find the best way to setup my LED wannabe Fluoro tubes. I find the PAD manual a little vague in this area. Total combined input watts versus actual light intensity varies in a huge way even between different LED's. I assume Rauber must use a meter to actually calculate this but doesn't specify the scale that he uses. I know, I know experimentation but like most humans I'm inherently lazy and hate to repeat work that has already been done, especially by someone smarter than myself.:upsidedow

It's vague because the manual tries to eliminate any source of need for calculation, but it's basically for floro's or better output efficiencies based one INPUT WATTAGE at the ballast, or better efficiency systems (HID/LED).

Remember though, that it's a minimum wattage for General Plant Growth.

For a Photophyle, Nitrophyle and highly photodynamic plant like ours, I use 4 times the minimum as general target.

Hope this helps, but yes their is an attempt to evergeneralize on this one, and any feedback suck as yours is used to gauge the demand for further needed detail, so thank you.

Take care, Sal.

[scott9116]

Thanks, Sal. I tend to go a bit overboard when it comes to light myself. Whenever someone asks "Should I add _____?" I always think the more the merrier.

Any thoughts on red or blue tinted reflectors? A lot of lights CFLs and tubes even my highdollar colored tubes have a green spike in their output. My understanding is that if the said spike is too low in the spectrum could keep PAD from working. A red or blue (depending on the application) anodized or tinted reflector could eat up half of the green spike of the offending bulb and still reflect most of the red or blue light that you want to keep.

Been thinking about this for HID lights. Hence, the title of the thread. During daytime lighting it shouldn't matter any. It could still apply to say, vegging under HPS with a blue reflector.

I'm also considering coating reflectors and maybe walls with titanium dioxide for odor control. It's the stuff they use on "Odor Eating" CFL's. $5 a pound for this stuff from make-up/soap suppliers on the net. It's apparently safe enough to use in hippie soap and that powdered mineral make up.

[salmayo]

Any thoughts on red or blue tinted reflectors? A lot of lights CFLs and tubes even my highdollar colored tubes have a green spike in their output. My understanding is that if the said spike is too low in the spectrum could keep PAD from working. A red or blue (depending on the application) anodized or tinted reflector could eat up half of the green spike of the offending bulb and still reflect most of the red or blue light that you want to keep.

Been thinking about this for HID lights. Hence, the title of the thread. During daytime lighting it shouldn't matter any. It could still apply to say, vegging under HPS with a blue reflector.

I'm also considering coating reflectors and maybe walls with titanium dioxide for odor control. It's the stuff they use on "Odor Eating" CFL's. $5 a pound for this stuff from make-up/soap suppliers on the net. It's apparently safe enough to use in hippie soap and that powdered mineral make up.

I think the TiO2 thing has had bad reviews, but I haven't tried it so I can't really say.

Dichroic filters seems the best but way too pricey for average use.

The Blue Green / Green Blue sensitivity of the Blue "DAY" receptor seems sensitive up from 500nm to about 520nm and we tried all last year to test out higher transmission Yellow rather than lower transmission Red filters and had some real headachs that turned out to be more ballast related than we anticipate (???!!!...), live and learn. So now we're just doing Red filters for standardized units that work.

The best results come from pairing reflector/filter reflection/transmission curves to the light source for maximized reflection/transmission.

You're on the right page and those are excellent ideas on reflectors, but we're sticking with a straight filter set up right now for standardization (the 282 lamp).

Gotta run...

Take care, Sal.

[scott9116]

The Blue Green / Green Blue sensitivity of the Blue "DAY" receptor seems sensitive up from 500nm to about 520nm and we tried all last year to test out higher transmission Yellow rather than lower transmission Red filters and had some real headachs that turned out to be more ballast related than we anticipate (???!!!...), live and learn. So now we're just doing Red filters for standardized units that work.


I recently read about much different ballasts can affect the actual color output of bulbs. The film industry and aquarium geeks have had issue with this. I'm hoping that my cheap Walmart and Sunpark ballasts don't change the specs of the tubes I'm getting too much. I really don't have the cash to lay out on the killer DMX color controllers that studios use.

[salmayo]

The difference we see in the fluorescent radio frequency ballasts, is that they product more of a High Pressure Mercury discharge spectrum in addition to the usual Low Pressure Mercury discharge spectrum. This is especially true for DC output ballasts such as IS (Insta-Start) ballast, as compared to the usual cheapper RS (Rapid Start) magnetic ballasts.

I'm using IS ballasts on all my fluorescents (T12, T10, T8 and T5HO ), but I also use outter Red Safety filters to eliminate stray 520nm and lower wavelengths (they don't cut out much more than the original Yellow Safety filters we hoped would work and are espectially good when combined with Red and/or Far Red phosphors to begin with).

Take care, Sal.

[scott9116]

Sal, what transmission rates do the filters your using have? I'm assuming Rosco brand? Them things can really eat up some light! I'm still debating the efficacy between filters and colored reflectors in my head.

I'm almost to the point of building the fixtures for the 5' tubes. Been a hard road getting everything else going. Soon, I'll have pics of the "Mar's Lander" I'm tinkering with.

Judging from Pf/Pfr response graphs. A ton response in near UV 300-400nm range is noted. Would flouro blacklights timed opposite from 730nm lighting increase the switch between Pr/Pfr? I wonder. Seems to me that in a HPS system that has almost nothing in that range could use those in between far red cycles. Certainly 420-460nm blue grows plants better but I cant help but to think that 300-400nm might increase potency and flavor without getting too deep into actual UV-B.

Oh, is there a time factor for fluorescent blacklights?

[salmayo]

Yes, I use lots of Rosco brand filters. We spent most of a year on the 015 Yellowish Filter as a possible max transmission option to the standard Red filters we use right now. Standard transmission data is available from Rosco on all their filters. I've used transmissions as high as 90 to 95 percent affective transmission (Emitter/Filter matching), but the Dichroics are the better, if you want the end all in performance. (Ultimately transmission is a product of the spectrum to be filterred and the transmission of the filter band by band.)

The Dichroic filters are the best, but very pricy for general purpose applications. The nice thing about the dichroics is their durability, and precise cutoff bands, plus their reflected light can be used in veggging areas etc.

Krylon makes a usable "Stain Glass" color spray that has the same temperature characteristics as the outter color coating on a standard 25 Watt Party lamp.

"Judging from Pf/Pfr response graphs. A ton response in near UV 300-400nm range is noted. Would flouro blacklights timed opposite from 730nm lighting increase the switch between Pr/Pfr? I wonder. Seems to me that in a HPS system that has almost nothing in that range could use those in between far red cycles. Certainly 420-460nm blue grows plants better but I cant help but to think that 300-400nm might increase potency and flavor without getting too deep into actual UV-B."

"Oh, is there a time factor for fluorescent blacklights?" - We don't have that data for two reasons: (1) Fluorescent Blacklights don't have meaningful output in the desired visible and Far Red ranges, and (2) they trigger as a Blue "Day" spectrum recognized by the plants as a Blue photoperiodic signal, so they aren't usable for PAD timing.

We find a that Far Red is the desired 3rd spectrum after Red and (Far Blue) Blue, with UV being more of an area of contradictory data.

We have considerred Colorred Water Cooling as a hybrid way of dealing with spectrum filtration and cooling issues, but are worried about safety issues of the water cooling option. We put quite a few powerful methods on the back burner for safety concerns. (A highly flexible and versatile systems though.)

Take care, Sal.

[scott9116]

The colored water idea is brilliant, Sal. I was thinking about water cooling myself, but the condensation is more my fear than leaks. I have some water cooled heatsinks I made a few years ago for bridge rectifiers in a welding machine. I might save those for if or when I get into some LEDs. Very hot and humid in my area and I've had heat issues in the past. I have a great cooling and air flow system now but at the cost of kwHrs.

"Oh, is there a time factor for fluorescent blacklights?" - We don't have that data for two reasons: (1) Fluorescent Blacklights don't have meaningful output in the desired visible and Far Red ranges, and (2) they trigger as a Blue "Day" spectrum recognized by the plants as a Blue photoperiodic signal, so they aren't usable for PAD timing.


Sal, that's what I was thinking though. Additional 300nm-400nm during the day cycle. Quicker conversion from Pfr back to Pr state. Or, would it just increase that amount of time and power needed in to get back to Pfr state?

I cant find the article now but I recently read about flouro blacklights killing pathogens similar to UV but takes longer. 45 minutes or so to kill most influenza if I recall correctly.
:thumbsup:

[salmayo]

Sal, that's what I was thinking though. Additional 300nm-400nm during the day cycle. Quicker conversion from Pfr back to Pr state. Or, would it just increase that amount of time and power needed in to get back to Pfr state?

Phytochrome is always in constant flux between it two Pr and Pfr states, and reaches states of photoequalibrium, even in the dark it cycles between the two states reaching an equalibrium due to the two rates of conversion between the two states.


So it's not really a question of quicker, it's more an issue of WHAT state of equalibrium the combined wavelengths produce and a period of time needed to reach an equalibrium state.

Hope that's not to Quantuum Theory for ya, but it boils down to tracking large numbers of phytochrome molecules and the numbers of the populations of Pr and Pfr acting within the cells.

---------

I've considerred the condensation issue and concluded it would be an air handling issue and possibly adding a bit of adjustment to a liquid cooling systems flow, in order to keep the component temps above the condensation point, while still maintaining enough cooling capacity.

Take care, Sal.