Procyon vs UFO LED

[macnasty]

Hello and hi,

Does any kind gardener have the scoop on this here comparison?

What I'd like to know is how these much more affordable 90W UFO's compare with the much more expensive Procyon 100's.

While I do expect the Procyon's to outperform their lesser competitor, perhaps this 'lesser' is not so less?

I don't expect anyone to give an answer who has done a scientific, side by side experiment in a NASA laboratory, but any advice from some UFO experienced growers would be thirstily gobbled down.

Weezard, you venerable man of the glowing diode, I'm currently in the process of purchasing a few from a seller you once recommended, a certain small bear....perhaps you've once pondered some such comparison...any thoughts?

my space is a 3x3 closet. I've read WT's first LED experiment with the procyon's in their entirety.

Thank you.

[ledtime]

While I have not tried a procyon, I am currently testing a custom dual blue wavelength UFO that I had made in China. So far it is working flawlessly in veg. The plants are really loving it. The 2nd part of my test is working with another LED light I had made for flowering. It's a 120W version that is dominitely 660nm with the two blue wavelengths that make up my veg light mixed in. Should be interesting.

Depending on how many plants you plan on growing the UFO will work. I have three plants each in their own 5gal bucket and they are doing great!

I wish the light spread was a little better as the LED's need to be closer to the plant to get some penetration and light density. 3'x3' is most def the max I would say the 90W can handle.

That is also why I upped the light to the 120W version for flower as it will cover more area and penetrate a little better. It's also rectangular in shape giving me a little more width in light coverage. With the way these three are growing I'm going to need it!

[macnasty]

Thanks for the input ledtime, I'm glad to hear that your LED experiments are working out for you.

I plan to use (if I do end up purchasing them) 2 of these 90 W lights for approximately a 5' x 1.5' area. The add says the lights are 80=Red and 10=Blue. The reds are 630 nm and the blues are 460 nm. I see that yours are 660 however. How do you think the 630's will fare?

My ultimate goal is to replace a 400W HPS I'm currently using. I understand that I may not get the same penetration with these lights, but I'm just very uncertain how much exactly will be compromised. I would really like a little more reassurance before making this $400 investment.

ledtime, the seller is also an ebayer who is shipping these products from china, and after reading posts by members of this site warning me about purchasing cheap china brand goods, I'm a little uneasy. But I think those warnings were directed against those low wattage lamps that have hundreds of led lights on them, and not the lights I'm concerned with here. If those 120 W lights are working for you, would you mind sharing with me, and others if they are interested, where to purchase them? The Procyon's are simply too expensive, so any suggestions on an alternative is very much welcomed. Thanks.

[oldmac]

I have owned 2 Procyons that I used for vegging and keeping my mom plants happy. And they worked very well at that for at least 6 months, but I decided to experiment with them for flowering after seeing WT's grow log. They worked very well at it, much better then I had thought was possible when I bought them. Down side is cost like you point out.

The UFO knockoffs, such as Weezard got and uses, seem to work very well for him, and the price makes it a very attractive as an alternative to the procyon (please forgive me Ryan).

Ledtime has come up with a great idea in getting LED lights made to his specs and at a good price I might add. This also seems like a good cost per unit deal vs. procyon.

The best way I've found to compensate for the lack of light penertration is to grow SOG style plants abt 18" or less. You just need to pack more of them in the space you have (it's all about a continuous canopy). Sure maybe you'll only get 5 grams/plant or so starting out, but if you had a 4x4 space with 138plants.....thats 690 grams (1 1/2#). And with a little tuning, and extras like CO2 and Liquid Light, you could get 7-8 gr/plant.

I have found that even 2- TI ProBlooms are not quite enough to cover a 4'x4' area and thats 660watts of LED. I am currently experimenting with an additional 340w of 4' T5s to create a hybred light for a total of 1000watts, I don't like it cause the mix of the two is not great. Outer rows see T5 only, center sees LED mostly and a few rows get a mix. My next experiment is to use the 2 TIs together on a light rail to try and spread out light distribution.
BTW the hybred LED/T5 kicks the ass of a 1000w HPS in side by side trails.

Sorry, did not mean to go on so long. I'm old and it's late and I'm ramblin'.
Just need to add this, IMHO a procyon 100 or 90w UFO can not and will not replace a 400w HPS. Output of the procyon is closer to a 400w MH (and that's pushing it) and a UFO even less.

[macnasty]

ok, just looked at a chart that shows peak chlorophyl-a absorption at about 430 and 660 nm, peak chlorophyl-b at about 470-480 nm, and peak carotenoid absorption at about 460 and 500 nm. It seems that the lights I'm considering on purchasing do not meet the chlorophyl-a absorption levels, as the level of absorption dropped significantly if the wavelength isn't spot on. Never mind that I haven't the slightest clue what these terms mean, I only hear that these are very important variables to consider. That said, shopping for the right LED light is definitely complicated, especially when all I want to do is grow some nice plants.

There is a common saying I've heard said many times around these forums, and it goes something like this: too much love can kill a plant - Keep it simple stupid. Perhaps I'm complicating things here...if so, I apologize, but I seem to be falling a victim to clever propaganda schemes fabricated by manufacturers who really don't care so much about providing lights that can grow healthy plants and are bent on making the big dolla.

I know, that sounds like an excuse. I'll dig up some more learnin before i blame anybody....but if you've got suggestions i'm listening. ciao.

[macnasty]

oops..accidentally double posted. site was acting up.

[macnasty]

hey oldmac,

I was hoping your uber-experienced butt would pay a visit. much obliged.

I'm glad you mentioned SOG, because that's exactly what I have in mind. And the CO2 as well. Running an HPS I have some significant heat issues, which disqualifies me from making good use of it, but with LED's I figure I can make up for some of the lack of light power by implementing CO2. And though I've never used it myself, I've heard it can increase yields by about 20%. If that number is realistic, that means I'll only have to provide 80% of the light I'm currently pumping with my HPS to get the same results. One step closer already, and the LED hasn't even turned on yet!

I'm happy to hear that the hybrid T5/LED puts the equivalent HID to shame. Another reason I want to switch to LED is that I can distribute the light much more evenly across the entire canopy than with a single light.

About your last point; thanks for clarifying for me from an authoritative source the truth that a procyon is not equivalent to a 400 W HID. To tell you the truth, I never believed that drum racketting anyway. My question is, is it reasonable to assume that 2 of these 90W lights would equal a single 400 W HID? If so, I am sold. Perhaps I'll throw in some T8's for good measure, or some T5's if I can find some.

In sum: the even light distribution, [potentially] lower energy consumption, and opportunity to utilize CO2 without the nuisance of running a continuous exhaust seems irrestable to a learning grower such as myself.

[crabbyback]

I've got procyons that I combine with 20K of T5. Works beautifully. But oldmac is right, one Procyon will not replace a 400w HPS, it may possibly replace a 250w HPS.

As much as I like my Procyons, I know they are not perfect with the flowering bands, meaning I try to add some kind of supplimental light in those missing areas.

I sometimes run the early part of bloom under LEDs only, to control temps. This was due to a thread where Stinky (I think) discussed stretch during flower and what part temperature and color have on that stretch. I add T5s later in bloom when temp. is not as critical.

I haven't tried the UFO knockoffs, but would not hesitate to try one. I personally would look for the latest generation tri-band with orange added. But, I haven't done my homework on LEDs lately.

[Weezard]

Aloha Stig.

I would have loved to do a UFO vs Procyon grow.
Alas, no can afford a Procyon.

Fortunately, it's been done.
The Procyon wins from all I've gathered.
But, bang for buck begs the question;
"Is it twice as good?"

O. M is spot-on as usual.
I agree with everything he said.
You are in very good hands here.

The dual UFOs are tempting, but maybe read Ledtimes thread for a better plan.
I like what he's doing.:cool:

When I used 400W HPS, I was growing in "Supersoil" and had less experience.
Now I do much better with 150W. led light, but I'm growing in DWC and coco so ah dunno what I might get with the HPS under these conditions.
Just can't make a real comparison.
And can't afford to feed and cool the HPS anyway.:(

That said, I do have 2. 5 gallon, DWC'd, clones going.
One indoors under a 150W. led array, and one under Tropical sunlight.

To my eye the sunlit buds are almost twice as fat.
Just started flower though. (14 days.)
And the days are about 1/2 hour longer outdoors this time of year.
I'm waiting to see what happens when the days get shorter.

If the day ever dawns that my innies match my outies.
I will say that LEDs have arrived.:D

Weeze,
(The 5th Rutle)

[oldmac]

Yes Craddyback, you have it right that the procyon is closer to a 250HPS, at least when it comes to our "photon whore" mj plant. I have also used LEDs on other plants, such as grape vines, and the difference is not as great.

I had used one of the original TI problooms I now have in a viticulture experiment and it pretty much equalled a 600w HPS, so much so I couldn't wait to use it on mj. I quickly did a "quick and dirty" grow in 2- 120 site EZ-clonners from start to finish (they say you can't grow to compeletion in a cloner, but hey the plants don't know that). Since they took up abt the same area as my previous grape cuttings I thought they'd do better then they actually did do. Difference in light needs of the plant is a major factor.
That was a long explanation to explain and give an excuse to some mfg claims about equivalent light comparisons.

So Crabby, maybe it's not a dumbass plant but it is a whore...for protons.:thumbsup:

[oldmac]

Hey Weezard, I'm 4 1/2 weeks into the "No UVb for Me" experiment nothing real to report. The WR is putting on trics like usual tho.

I also am looking forward to see how Ledtime's lights turn out and do, I liked his approach on this.

And the 5th Rutle? Are you saying that "all you need is cash"?

[oldmac]

I'm glad you mentioned SOG, because that's exactly what I have in mind. And the CO2 as well. Running an HPS I have some significant heat issues, which disqualifies me from making good use of it, but with LED's I figure I can make up for some of the lack of light power by implementing CO2. And though I've never used it myself, I've heard it can increase yields by about 20%. If that number is realistic, that means I'll only have to provide 80% of the light I'm currently pumping with my HPS to get the same results. One step closer already, and the LED hasn't even turned on yet!]

Actually the co2 will allow you to get away with a whole lot more heat, keep the plant from shutting down respiration at high temps, where growth slows down as heat goes up. At 100F degrees it could add 100% more growth (something vs. nothing)

I'm happy to hear that the hybrid T5/LED puts the equivalent HID to shame. Another reason I want to switch to LED is that I can distribute the light much more evenly across the entire canopy than with a single light.

It should there really is no energy savings with it.

About your last point; thanks for clarifying for me from an authoritative source the truth that a procyon is not equivalent to a 400 W HID. To tell you the truth, I never believed that drum racketting anyway. My question is, is it reasonable to assume that 2 of these 90W lights would equal a single 400 W HID? If so, I am sold. Perhaps I'll throw in some T8's for good measure, or some T5's if I can find some.

Crabbyback, a proud Porcyon user confirms what I've seen. She also has it right about using a cheap source like fluorescents to fill out any mising light spectrum

In sum: the even light distribution, [potentially] lower energy consumption, and opportunity to utilize CO2 without the nuisance of running a continuous exhaust seems irrestable to a learning grower such as myself.

Probably the best part of the whole LED experience, low heat production and the ability to contain co2 better equals higher production.

But as much as I like science and believe in the law of physics, there is something of a black art to LEDs.....probably explains why we need a Weezard around.:)

[phatsesh101]

[quote=oldmac] I quickly did a "quick and dirty" grow in 2- 120 site EZ-clonners from start to finish (they say you can't grow to compeletion in a cloner, but hey the plants don't know that).QUOTE]

thats funny, my kinda grower

so mac you think i veg, fit 100 clones in dixie cups for month under a procyon?

[ledtime]

The 90W dual-blue band I'm working with is doing a fantastic job. I've been really poking a stick however. I LST'd my smallest plant of my three and it's really starting to get it in gear now.

On my two bigger plants, I tied them down for a few hours the other day then untied them. Their main stem is now more of an S shape without being tied down. But they are strong! It's allowing me to get light lower without really LST'ing them all the way. Just some minor bending here and there.

If I were to start all over again I would LST from an earlier point and bring the main stem all the way around the rim allowing as much light to the plant as possible. I think that is the best way to go with LED.

The two spot on wavelengths in the blue end seem to be doing a real bang up job so far.

When it comes to flowering I might just keep this 90W in there and then add the 120W. We'll see. That would definitely help with any stretching issues.

[Weezard]

Hey Weezard, I'm 4 1/2 weeks into the "No UVb for Me" experiment nothing real to report. The WR is putting on trics like usual tho.

I also am looking forward to see how Ledtime's lights turn out and do, I liked his approach on this.

And the 5th Rutle? Are you saying that "all you need is cash"?

"I have always felt, in the back of my mind, Cheese and Onions"

Leggy Mountbatten

[MerryPrankstr]

If the day ever dawns that my innies match my outies.
I will say that LEDs have arrived.

Hmmm...

My HPS and MH never really matched my outdoor grows in terms of thick vigourous growth, somy personal definition is when they match HID lamps.

But they will have really arrived when they cost the same as HID.

Then HID will meet the same fate as Kodachrome.

M.P.

[Weezard]

Hmmm...

My HPS and MH never really matched my outdoor grows in terms of thick vigourous growth, somy personal definition is when they match HID lamps.

Hence, the "grinnie".

However, as the "VOG" thickens here and obscures the sun,
any indoor light looks brighter every day.

But they will have really arrived when they cost the same as HID.

From your mouth to Cree's ears!

Then HID will meet the same fate as Kodachrome.

M.P.

And betamax!

No, wait, Beta was superior to VHS in quality!:D

Dat's why I no let marketing choose my folly. :D:D

My outdoor girls are almost ready to ravish.
I'll try to do an un-biased bio-assay vs. the indoor, (no UV),
budz.:rasta:
Not gonna be easy.
1 hit being 2 much, and all.:stoned:

More "dark" than artsy.
Weeze

[oldmac]

thats funny, my kinda grower

so mac you think i veg, fit 100 clones in dixie cups for month under a procyon? -phatsesh101

Well imho a procyon does a great job at 2'x2' but might cover up to a little more. How big in diameter are your dixie cups? Do some math and figure it, or if you have the cups, lay them out as an engineering model and measure it.
I used 2 mounted side by side on a light rail and covered 3'x5' over moms (kept abt 2-3' tall) and seedlings and/or rooted clones on raised shelfs to keep all the top hieghts the same. The lightrail changes the angle of attack of the light, shading and unshading parts of the plant. It helps with the penertration issue. ;)

(sorry to screw up the post slightly)

[oldmac]

The 90W dual-blue band I'm working with is doing a fantastic job. I've been really poking a stick however. I LST'd my smallest plant of my three and it's really starting to get it in gear now.

On my two bigger plants, I tied them down for a few hours the other day then untied them. Their main stem is now more of an S shape without being tied down. But they are strong! It's allowing me to get light lower without really LST'ing them all the way. Just some minor bending here and there.

If I were to start all over again I would LST from an earlier point and bring the main stem all the way around the rim allowing as much light to the plant as possible. I think that is the best way to go with LED.

The two spot on wavelengths in the blue end seem to be doing a real bang up job so far.

When it comes to flowering I might just keep this 90W in there and then add the 120W. We'll see. That would definitely help with any stretching issues.

You need to talk with CrabbyBack (if you haven't already) she's into that plant bondage thing, you know tying it down and stuff. She described her set up and tying down technique on a thread by Horsemanrocks under Hydo section (calling all scroggers).

[cptcannabis]

I took the plunge and got a 300w Grow Panel Pro from Sunshine Systems. First thing I did when I took it out of the box was look for the UL logo, but alas, there was nothing. Fortunately, it seems like a very good design. The thing runs super cool- pretty much as cool as the laptop I'm typing on. It's super quiet, very light and easy to suspend, and you don't have to put it right on top of the plants, since the light is so intense in the blue/red part of the spectrum. The directions recommend 1.5-2.0 meters distance from the top of the plants. So there's none of the constant shifting to keep the HPS a cubit away from the plants and all.

I sat down and figured out the cost, and for $1,300 you can get the 300w LED, or you can go Old School and do the 1000w set up with a ballast, bulb, reflector, ducting, duct fans, and all that for about $600. The selling point is that the LED set up pays for itself within a year from just the energy savings and you can pretty much keep it on for 7 years straight, since the LEDs last so long. I've had very nice results with it so far, and I don't get as much burning due to water/nute splashing on leaves or the leaves getting too close to the HPS bulb.

[macnasty]

ok. here are my current 'calculations' based on what i've read so far: IF a procyon is equivalent to a 250w HPS, then I'm going to assume a UFO equals a 200w HPS. I will dedicate a single UFO per 2'x1.5' DWC tub in flowering, supplementing with roughly 2x40w of T5 flourescents per tub. This should give the appearance of a 280w HPS per tub, at 6-8" from the top of the canopy.

How do these figures sound?

also, should I be supplementing with red spectrum T5's, or blue, or a mix? The UFO's have only 630nm and 460nm LED's @ 8 to 1, respectively.

[oldmac]

ok. here are my current 'calculations' based on what i've read so far: IF a procyon is equivalent to a 250w HPS, then I'm going to assume a UFO equals a 200w HPS. I will dedicate a single UFO per 2'x1.5' DWC tub in flowering, supplementing with roughly 2x40w of T5 flourescents per tub. This should give the appearance of a 280w HPS per tub, at 6-8" from the top of the canopy.

How do these figures sound?

also, should I be supplementing with red spectrum T5's, or blue, or a mix? The UFO's have only 630nm and 460nm LED's @ 8 to 1, respectively.

Your figures are good for the UFOs, 1 per that size tube sounds reasonable. I asume you are talking about using T5- 2' tubes. They are 24watts each using T5 HO. You can get single strip fixtures ready to run and use two each or a 2 light fixture, or even just buy end caps and a ballast and make your own. Now if it was me, I'd probably use a IceCap ballast (you can run four bulbs from it) and drive those 2 footers to 40watts each. Slightly more expensive that way tho. I would use red spectrum, 2700K if you can get them. Google "access discounts" sorry I don't have the link, but they have had T5s with that K, or next choice is the more common 3000K. BTW even tho they are warm color they have plenty of blue in them and will get you more orange and red, maybe some more energy above 630nm. Hope this helps.

[oldmac]

I saw your grow log, and I'm interested in how well those panels do. That height recommendation seems high to me. That's 4.5' to 6' above the plants, I am not sure you are going to get enough light energy to the plants from so far away. I realize that will give a very large footprint but at what light level?
Do you know how many diodes are in it and how many watts each they are?

You can post your answer on your grow log thread, and I'll catch up with you there.