Calling out to Weezard for LED advice

[Crunchypants]

My friend, I've read your stuff here and at Steve F.'s site. I want to build a dedicated flowering lamp using Ledengin 15 watters. (4 reds, 1 blue, and possibly 1 warm white; LM 317's so I can tweak the ratios.) Essentially, a copy of your 4+1 cake pan lamp but built on a 4 x 18" finned heatsink so I can see what's going on under it.)

If I were to post my picks for power supply, resistor ratings / values, etc., would you critique and perhaps offer some guidance? I have already purchased the Mastech 3010 you've talked about.

Hoping you'll see this,
Crunchypants

[Weezard]

My friend, I've read your stuff here and at Steve F.'s site. I want to build a dedicated flowering lamp using Ledengin 15 watters. (4 reds, 1 blue, and possibly 1 warm white; LM 317's so I can tweak the ratios.) Essentially, a copy of your 4+1 cake pan lamp but built on a 4 x 18" finned heatsink so I can see what's going on under it.)

If I were to post my picks for power supply, resistor ratings / values, etc., would you critique and perhaps offer some guidance? I have already purchased the Mastech 3010 you've talked about.

Hoping you'll see this,
Crunchypants

Aloha, CP
Saw your post in KNNA's thread.
Answered it, sort of.
This is prolly a way mo' betta place for it though.
No wanna hi-jack da "bean counters" thread,ya :D

Happy to help, brah.
Dunno 'bout critique n guidance.
But, I'll kibbitz gleefully.:D

Let 'er rip.
Weezard

Oh, went and got the post from KNNA's thread.
Here, 'tis
"
The Herding instinct in Photons and micro-einsteins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchypants http://boards.cannabis.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/164607-building-led-lights-facts-no-theories-4.html#post1963834)
Weezard, I'm planning to homebrew a version of your 4+1 x 15w. light. :thumbsup:Looks like the Ledengin LED's have a 90-110 degree beam, though. Would you recommend additional optics or did the 15's work okay for you unmodified?

Mine are mounted in a deep aluminum cake pan which serves as a reflector.
Didn't find lenses for the ledengins but the 5Watt leds that I lensed are clearly better than the same configuration without the lenses.
Would call it proof if the red leds were identical.
The lensed set is 660nm., the un-lensed are 625nm.
Perhaps the difference in efficiency compensates.
Ah dunno.
I just ordered more lenses.
Will install them on the 625nm lamp and start taking pictures
of the progress.
If you find, say, 40 degree lenses that fit the 15W ledengin lens, please drop me a line.

Also, MPJA has a 28v. / 5.5A power supply (the 24v. is out of stock for awhile). I was thinking getting one to power 2 parallel legs of (2) 15w. 660's, with an LM317 on each leg. Am I just making extra work for myself by not running a 24v. supply into a single LM317 and parallelling (4) 660's off the 317? Seemed like a bit of current to push through a single 317, but I don't really know.

LM317 has a absolute maximum of 1.5A!
You might want to use an LM138 - 338 instead.

Driving an approximately. 12V led from a 28V supply will work well if you run the 2 parallel sets in series.
That will give you 4V headroom but would have to pass 2.1A.
That would require a pass transistor, etc.

So the LM138 series with a max of 5A. would probably serve better for ease of design.
Google the LM138 series for a quick and easy schematic.

The problem then is the blue led which uses closer to 15V, for peak efficiency.
I use 2 separate supplies because dissapating "excess" energy just rubs me the wrong way
My next ledengin lamp will have 2 Blues.
The goal here is to waste as little power as possible in the regulator.

I would like to underdrive the LED's slightly, and have some extra headroom in the build. Thanks!

Good idea!
I limit mine and use a thermal switch in series with the fan to keep everything under 50C.
Better Photons:Watts = less waste heat to deal with as well.

Easy lamp to build and it will work for flowering.
Mine covers app. 2 sq ft. and takes 2 or 3 weeks longer, start to finish, than HPS.
But the quality?
Wicked good!:stoned:

Let me know if I can help.

Aloha,
Weezard "

[Crunchypants]

This is prolly a way mo' betta place for it though.
No wanna hi-jack da "bean counters" thread,ya

Point taken--I'll move my ignorance-fest back here.

I could have asked Knna, but then I'd have had to have someone explain his answer to me. :confused:

I had begun to think you weren't going to see this post, and at some point my eagerness overcame my sense of etiquette. Hope not to have offended anyone, and thanks again for your willingness to help.

Dang! I had just found some little finned heatsinks at Radio Shack for the 317 in the TO-220 package. Going to have to think about mounting strategies for the LM 138 after I read up on it more. Looks like a big power transistor with the case electrically hot. Gotta figure out how to deal with that. CP.

[Weezard]

Point taken--I'll move my ignorance-fest back here.

I could have asked Knna, but then I'd have had to have someone explain his answer to me. :confused:

Tell me about it! :D

I had begun to think you weren't going to see this post, and at some point my eagerness overcame my sense of etiquette. Hope not to have offended anyone, and thanks again for your willingness to help.

Not at all. Best way to do it.

Dang! I had just found some little finned heatsinks at Radio Shack for the 317 in the TO-220 package. Going to have to think about mounting strategies for the LM 138 after I read up on it more. Looks like a big power transistor with the case electrically hot. Gotta figure out how to deal with that. CP.

We're dealing with low voltage here so an electrically "hot" heatsink need not be a problem.
The Ledengin die appears to be well insulated.


Looks like you are serious about this.:cool:
Sorry, but I'm not used to someone who reads and retains everything they can find before they start asking questions.
I'm impressed! And flattered.


To me, this is a way of obtaining meds that I can not obtain through legal channels or afford on the street.
I don't worry myself about a nanometer here or a uE there.
I just want maximum yield for minimum cost.

You may be dissapointed with the single warm white led.
At least as far as "seeing what you are doing" goes
As you say the white led is a crippled blue led and will be swamped by the red and blue.
I am using a 120W CFL to supply any odd color that my girls may be "pining" for.
(Does it do any good?
Jury is still out on that. )
And still, even with a flash, getting a true color picture is accomplished only with the LEDs powered off.
Fer instance:
[attachment=o213252]

Here's a shot of the top of my light if you haven't already seen it;
[attachment=o213253]
Shouldn't be hard to improve on this mess.
It works, but it's far from elegant.

Am still running the last light array I built on my bench supply.
I plan on using an Laptop switching supply for it and getting my bench supply back to develop my next light any day now:)

I gotta ask, why "crunchypants"?

Aloha,
Wee Zard

[Crunchypants]

I am using a 120W CFL to supply any odd color that my girls may be "pining" for.
(Does it do any good?
Jury is still out on that. )


About the time WhiskeyTango started adding supplements to his Procyons I began wondering if I could close that 2-3 week gap in finishing that everyone seems to have noticed with LED's. I added 2 x 13 watt cfl's and/or 1 x 24 watt T5HO (nominal 2 footer) to sweeten the mix. I tried both 3K warm and 6500 cool at alternate times, in a not-very-scientific way. Improvement didn't seem worth the added heat, and strangely, I thought the 6500 degree provided slightly better (still minimally better) results. So I guess I've proved to myself I don't need to fuss with adding white LED's to my lamp.

120 watts of CFL is another story; be interested to see the results of this experiment. What color temp are you using?


I gotta ask, why "crunchypants"?

Well, I was just trying to blend in by looking like a 19-year-old male with a chip on his shoulder. Before I registered at CannCom I lurked around the other boards for awhile, and a vaguely suggestive username seemed to be the norm. After I settled in at CannCom and read some posts and stickies by Stinky and Rhizome, I realized this community was much different than the recreational doper sites. (This impression was reaffirmed in the recent weeks when CannCom was down, and I revisited some of those "other" sites.)

At that point, I thought about picking a different username, but thought maybe the mods would see a "wise-ass" change his name without a single post and assume I was just a troll. I didn't want to get banned before I even started, so I just left it.

I never really planned on posting much, because the site elders were effectively advising all the noobs without my help, and I could answer my own questions by simply reading what's already been posted. But then SnS took the plunge with their LED grow, and heavyweights like Knna, you, and others started weighing in. CannCom became the unofficial clearinghouse for LED grow info, even more so than the GPL site.

If I had to do again, I would observe the CannCom convention of whimsical, grow-related handles and be "Foley R. Feading" or "The Dreaded Hermie." :D

Guess I should probably change it; no sense coming off like an adolescent in an adult community.

[DreadedHermie]

I feel more mature already, except I liked my Jan 2008 registration date. Color me noob! CP, now DH! :cool:

[DreadedHermie]

This is the stuff I wanted to mount my components on. I don't look forward to drilling it, though. The cake pan is looking better and better.[attachment=o213335]

[Weezard]

About the time WhiskeyTango started adding supplements to his Procyons I began wondering if I could close that 2-3 week gap in finishing that everyone seems to have noticed with LED's. I added 2 x 13 watt cfl's and/or 1 x 24 watt T5HO (nominal 2 footer) to sweeten the mix. I tried both 3K warm and 6500 cool at alternate times, in a not-very-scientific way. Improvement didn't seem worth the added heat, and strangely, I thought the 6500 degree provided slightly better (still minimally better) results. So I guess I've proved to myself I don't need to fuss with adding white LED's to my lamp.

120 watts of CFL is another story; be interested to see the results of this experiment. What color temp are you using?

It's actually 42W. CFL
The package hype claimed 120W. equivalent.
Was meant to be a tiny joke, but I forgot da li'l smiley on da end.:o

They list no color temp.:wtf:
It looks half way between warm and cool. I'd call it daylight.
I'm still at least 2 weeks from a bud density comparison.
but it did not "speed 'em up".

Well, I was just trying to blend in by looking like a 19-year-old male with a chip on his shoulder. Before I registered at CannCom I lurked around the other boards for awhile, and a vaguely suggestive username seemed to be the norm. After I settled in at CannCom and read some posts and stickies by Stinky and Rhizome, I realized this community was much different than the recreational doper sites. (This impression was reaffirmed in the recent weeks when CannCom was down, and I revisited some of those "other" sites.)

At that point, I thought about picking a different username, but thought maybe the mods would see a "wise-ass" change his name without a single post and assume I was just a troll. I didn't want to get banned before I even started, so I just left it.


I never really planned on posting much, because the site elders were effectively advising all the noobs without my help, and I could answer my own questions by simply reading what's already been posted. But then SnS took the plunge with their LED grow, and heavyweights like Knna, you, and others started weighing in. CannCom became the unofficial clearinghouse for LED grow info, even more so than the GPL site.

If I had to do again, I would observe the CannCom convention of whimsical, grow-related handles and be "Foley R. Feading" or "The Dreaded Hermie." :D

Guess I should probably change it; no sense coming off like an adolescent in an adult community.

No worries, brah. I thought it was droll.

And your avatar is great!
Reminded me of my first stab at being the electrician, (or somebody like him), at about that age..
('cept I used a small, stainless steel, turbine blade that I held with a boxing glove.)
Jammed it in a broken socket 'cause I wanted to "magnetize" it.
Parental units were not amused.:D

So, it's time to outshine the Procyon.
Been saving my pennies and it's need to build some more Ledengin 15W arrays.

Been playing with an idea that involves 3/4" soft copper water pipe.
Want to coil it in a flat spiral, squish the spiral disk almost flat, sand and polish one side and attach the LEDs with thermal cement.
Then, if I hang it from the center I end up with a "cone-o-light"
Pumping water through the pipe and back into a res. will cool the leds and keep res. temps up in the winter for mainland folks.
I'll probably have to feed it from the tap and tie the output into my drip irrigation for the yard.
That will transport the heat out of the grow room.
Still a pipe dream, until I get to the plumbing supply store.

Howz your design coming?

Aloha,
Weezard

[Weezard]

This is the stuff I wanted to mount my components on. I don't look forward to drilling it, though. The cake pan is looking better and better.[attachment=o213335]

That's Aluminum.
Piece of cake to drill and tap.:)

Keep in mind, the current regulator/power supply does not have to share the 'sink with the leds if you use "fat" wire to feed the array.
I try to keep as much heat as I can outside the G.R..

[DreadedHermie]

It's actually 42W. CFL
The package hype claimed 120W. equivalent.
Was meant to be a tiny joke, but I forgot da li'l smiley on da end.


I get it. ;) I was about to suggest you call that setup a CFL-assisted-by-LED grow, though. :D


Been playing with an idea that involves 3/4" soft copper water pipe.
Want to coil it in a flat spiral, squish the spiral disk almost flat, sand and polish one side and attach the LEDs with thermal cement.


Yep, have thought along those lines but am obviously working my way through some other details first. (Like building a basic, working light!) Rectangular aluminum stock with forced air cooling through the center seemed more realistic for me to attempt; my plumbing seems to cause flooding. :(


Howz your design coming?


Well, I think you just opened up some new possibilities. For some reason I was thinking the current regulators needed to be close to the load; I'd planned to mount 'em on the 'sink near the LED's. I prolly misinterpreted the data about filter caps needing to be close to the current regulator(s).

I had planned on keeping the power supply out of the grow area, but are you telling me I can keep the current regulators adjacent to the power supply? I could mount them in a separate case and keep the light nice and neat. This would also let me use the 338's in a TO-3 package, which seem much more popular, and look like they'd dissipate heat much better.

BTW, I don't see any "proper operation assumes adequate heatsinking" type disclaimers on any of the 338 family, unlike the LM317's. I also can't figure out what the voltage drop across the 338's is-- in one graph it looks like they'll want 1.5-2 volts at around 4 Amps. Help??:confused:

[DreadedHermie]

Hey, (duh) doesn't a power supply + current regulator = "LED driver?" Dang, I'm dense sometimes. Jes' call me "Pb.":rolleyes:

[Weezard]

I get it. ;) I was about to suggest you call that setup a CFL-assisted-by-LED grow, though. :D

Yep, have thought along those lines but am obviously working my way through some other details first. (Like building a basic, working light!) Rectangular aluminum stock with forced air cooling through the center seemed more realistic for me to attempt; my plumbing seems to cause flooding. :(

Well, I think you just opened up some new possibilities. For some reason I was thinking the current regulators needed to be close to the load; I'd planned to mount 'em on the 'sink near the LED's. I prolly misinterpreted the data about filter caps needing to be close to the current regulator(s).


I had planned on keeping the power supply out of the grow area, but are you telling me I can keep the current regulators adjacent to the power supply?

Zackly!
The closer the better.
Eliminates the need for a tantalum cap on the input to the CCR. That in turn eliminates the need for a diode.
Same with the output of the CCR.
You do not need a capacitor because of the nature of the load.
With no output cap to reverse bias the regulator, no "protection diode" is needed. Keep it simple.
16 ga. wire would suffice, but I'd use 14 ga. stranded and a plug/socket right at the lamp.
I used a 4 pin hard drive connector with a seperate ground return for the Red and blue supplies.
The CCR will hold whatever current you wish when using thinner wire, but why waste watts in da wire?

I could mount them in a separate case and keep the light nice and neat. This would also let me use the 338's in a TO-3 package, which seem much more popular, and look like they'd dissipate heat much better.

You got it straight away!
Impressive.
It's gonna be fun working with you.:)

BTW, I don't see any "proper operation assumes adequate heatsinking" type disclaimers on any of the 338 family, unlike the LM317's.

Look harder, I'm sure it's there somewhere. :D
Might have to dissipate 16W. or more! So a heatsink is in order. And, in this case, bigger is better. :cool:

I also can't figure out what the voltage drop across the 338's is-- in one graph it looks like they'll want 1.5-2 volts at around 4 Amps. Help??:confused:

If you allow for a 3 volt drop across the regulator and the 1.25V. drop across the sense resistor in your design, you should have enough headroom to keep the 338s happy.

Now, I'm havin' fun.
Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

Eliminates the need for a tantalum cap on the input to the CCR. That in turn eliminates the need for a diode.
Same with the output of the CCR.
You do not need a capacitor because of the nature of the load.
With no output cap to reverse bias the regulator, no "protection diode" is needed. Keep it simple.
16 ga. wire would suffice, but I'd use 14 ga. stranded and a plug/socket right at the lamp.


Okay, now I'm excited because I actually understand all that.

What I'm not sure about (among many other things) is what the 15w. 660's are actually going to be pulling current-wise. They're rated at 1500mA, so if I'm running them conservatively are they pulling a bit over an amp or so each, or are these things actually meant to be run at 750mA? (I'm cautious of power ratings, I remember audio amps that were in reality about 30 watts RMS being rated at 600 watts "intermitent peak-to-peak" or some other hogwash.):wtf:

If the reds are indeed capable of pulling an amp and a half each, my 5.5 amp power supply isn't as overkill as I'd thought.

[DreadedHermie]

Might have to dissipate 16W. or more! So a heatsink is in order. And, in this case, bigger is better.



Dang! I hate to waste 16W., especially by turning it into heat! Can I improve my design? Maybe find a 24v. supply instead?

[DreadedHermie]

And I can think so much more clearly. :thumbsup:

This is why I have that bench supply! I can use it to see what my LED's want to be fed, and buy a power supply that fills that need.

The LM138 is good for higher temps than the 338 (150 C. vs, 125 C.) so I'll use those. Found some real sporty dedicated heatsinks for the TO-3 package. My driver will look like the Batmobile, or perhaps the Nautilus (esp. if I do any plumbing! :D)

So, Weezard, my last question, hopefully, before I start buying components for the red circuit, is:

What watt rating to I need for R1 and R2? It seems like folks are using a 5K ohm Radio Shack pot for R2. These are only rated at a half watt. However, I see some devices on your light that look like 7W resistors. How much juice is going through the R1-R2 resistor combo?

Mouser has a 5 watt wirewound pot-style variable resistor for only $4, but only up to 2K ohm. Would you recommend recalculating R1 value and using resistors/pots rated at 5 watts, or are half-watt parts sufficient here? I know the LM138 is going to have to handle some heat, but what about R1 and R2? Are they putting the brakes on any significant current flow, or are they just reference / sense components? And what the heck is a sense resistor, anyway? :confused: (Well, that was more than one question, I guess.):D

[Weezard]

And I can think so much more clearly. :thumbsup:

This is why I have that bench supply! I can use it to see what my LED's want to be fed, and buy a power supply that fills that need.

:D:D:D Goodonya!

The LM138 is good for higher temps than the 338 (150 C. vs, 125 C.) so I'll use those. Found some real sporty dedicated heatsinks for the TO-3 package. My driver will look like the Batmobile, or perhaps the Nautilus (esp. if I do any plumbing! :D)

So, Weezard, my last question, hopefully, before I start buying components for the red circuit, is:

What watt rating to I need for R1 and R2? It seems like folks are using a 5K ohm Radio Shack pot for R2. These are only rated at a half watt. However, I see some devices on your light that look like 7W resistors. How much juice is going through the R1-R2 resistor combo?

Mouser has a 5 watt wirewound pot-style variable resistor for only $4, but only up to 2K ohm. Would you recommend recalculating R1 value and using resistors/pots rated at 5 watts, or are half-watt parts sufficient here? I know the LM138 is going to have to handle some heat, but what about R1 and R2? Are they putting the brakes on any significant current flow, or are they just reference / sense components? And what the heck is a sense resistor, anyway? :confused: (Well, that was more than one question, I guess.):D


A sense resisror is so called because it hooks to the sense input of a regulator.

Here's how the LM317 CCR circuit works;

The lm317 is designed to be a variable voltage regulator
and it "wants to see" 1.25Vdc between the output pin and the ADJ/Sense pin. before it will begin regulating anything.
We take advantage of those facts for our current regulator.
We tie a restor to the output pin and draw the current to our load through that resistor.
If we run a wire from the load side of the resistor to the adjust pin, that pin will sense the voltage drop across the resistor.
So, ohm's law.
If we want a 1 ampere current limit, we use a resistor value that will drop 1.25V at 1 amp.
Once the adjust pin senses 1.25v.it regulates voltage to keep that voltage drop, and thus the current, constant.
1 A. X 1.25 V. = 1.25 W.
While a 2 watt resistor would suffice, a 5 or 10 watt resistor will run cooler and thus regulate tighter.
I had some 10 Watt, 1 ohm power resistors laying around so I thermal glued them to the heatsink.
Overkill? Perhaps,. But overkill is a good thing in this case .
Gives me about 1.2A. which is exactly what I wanted.
Seems to be the sweet spot in photons per watt.

What is this R2 you speak of?
The current limit configuration only requires one resistor.
[attachment=o213372]
And, I think this all applies to the 138 series as well.

It's very simple.

[DreadedHermie]

Here's where I'm getting that R2 stuff:[attachment=o213389]

[attachment=o213390]


Here's the TO-3 heatsinks:[attachment=o213391]

Looks like R2 is like a trimmer to make the voltage variable(?). Of course, once it's dialed in you can measure the resistance the pot's providing and replace the pot with a fixed resistor, unless you want to be able to change how much your blues are putting out, for example. Somehow I think PWM might be more efficient at doing this, but I'm not that far along yet.

[DreadedHermie]

[attachment=o213392]

What about this bad boy? (The 12v. version.) Looks like all the goodies are built-in. A little pricey, and maybe marginal headroon for 4 660's. Would you still need CCR's on top of this?

[Weezard]

Here's where I'm getting that R2 stuff:[attachment=o213389]

[attachment=o213390]

Oh, O.K., those configurations are for regulating voltage.

We want to regulate current.

Lose R2 completely, we don't need it.
And R1 should be about 1/2 an ohm. for 2 amps or 1/4 ohm for 4 amps.
If you can't find the exact value you want, you can always wire larger values in parallel.
2. 1 ohm resistors in parallel = 1/2 ohm, etc.

The schematic in my last post is complete.
One regulator, one resistor, no "salad". :jointsmile:
It's all you really need for a non-inductive, non-capacitive load.

Here's the TO-3 heatsinks:[attachment=o213391]

Looks like R2 is like a trimmer to make the voltage variable(?). Of course, once it's dialed in you can measure the resistance the pot's providing and replace the pot with a fixed resistor, unless you want to be able to change how much your blues are putting out, for example. Somehow I think PWM might be more efficient at doing this, but I'm not that far along yet.

Quite right! PWM is a better choice, but, in a pinch, a high current low resistance trimmer with a limit resistor will work for varying current.

You might be over-thinking the CCR part.:D

Disclaimer:
This works a treat with the LMx17 series and should work just as well with the LMx38. But, I have yet to try it with the x38s.

See easier that you thunk, ya?

Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

You might be over-thinking the CCR part.



Yes, I am positively devoted to overthinking (everything) now, not after I've smoked $150+ of LED's!:eek:


The schematic in my last post is complete.
One regulator, one resistor, no "salad".
It's all you really need for a non-inductive, non-capacitive load.


Very elegant in its simplicity. Without your guidance I would be making this way harder than it needs to be. Thanks again!


BTW, read somewhere you're on nursing duty this week. Please give my best to your patient, and I hope you're better at nursing than I am at EE. :)

I found a CRAZY thick aluminum cake pan last night, 13' x 9", except it's also non-stick. What's your take on grinding the teflon off so I can epoxy to it?

[Weezard]

[attachment=o213392]

What about this bad boy? (The 12v. version.) Looks like all the goodies are built-in. A little pricey, and maybe marginal headroon for 4 660's. Would you still need CCR's on top of this?

Dude!
You didn't say you had a fat budget.:D

Hell yes! That will work.
That's exactly what I would use if a had 2 pennies to rub together.:)
I'd use the 120Vac input unit and be done with it.
It is truely all you need besides leds, wire, and a heatsink

They are PWM based.
Very little power wasted as heat
Just buy, plug, n play.

I only reneck my own supplies because I have to choose between toys and food. :(
(Sometimes the toys win. Keeps me from gettin fat, ya?):D


So rich!!;)
Must be nice.:smokin:


Aloha nui.
Weezard

[Weezard]

Yes, I am positively devoted to overthinking (everything) now, not after I've smoked $150+ of LED's!:eek:



Very elegant in its simplicity. Without your guidance I would be making this way harder than it needs to be. Thanks again!


BTW, read somewhere you're on nursing duty this week. Please give my best to your patient, and I hope you're better at nursing than I am at EE. :)

I found a CRAZY thick aluminum cake pan last night, 13' x 9", except it's also non-stick. What's your take on grinding the teflon off so I can epoxy to it?

I'd be very careful.
When Teflon is heated past 4 or 5 hundred degrees F. it produces a poisonous gas.
Not powdered Teflon, an actual gas, so wearing a grinding mask is not gonna save ya.
It WILL kill birds, so it can't be healthy for people.
If you do this, sand the Teflon off by hand, outdoors, down-wind and very slowly.

We seem to be leapfrogging messages:D.

Ciao
Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

I'd be very careful.

Thanks. I think that real heatsink stock is the way to go.


You didn't say you had a fat budget.

Not so much, but the power supply I'd use would be around $75.[attachment=o213400]

By the time I get the 338 heatsinks ($10, plus $10 more for shipping, plus $10 ea. for the 338's, the led driver is actually cheaper. Certainly neater, as well. Think I'm ready to start ordering. Do ya think I should do a build log?

[Weezard]

Thanks. I think that real heatsink stock is the way to go.

Yeah, that!

Not so much, but the power supply I'd use would be around $75.[attachment=o213400]

By the time I get the 338 heatsinks ($10, plus $10 more for shipping, plus $10 ea. for the 338's, the led driver is actually cheaper. Certainly neater, as well. Think I'm ready to start ordering. Do ya think I should do a build log?

Build log?
Why not?

Grow log?
Abso-freakin-lutely!
Be a good way to give back to the boards that gave so much to us.

On that Driver, the 100-12 might not cut it.
I'd vote for the 60-15 or the 100-15 for the 12-13 volts the red leds are going to want.
My blue wanted 13.8 V. if I remember correctly:stoned: but you won't be able to run it off the same driver.:(
(Reds n blues have different Vf. for a given current.
That would confuse your driver.)
Of course 2 $80 drivers is an option, but you might be able to use one 100-15 driver on the blue with dropping resistors in series with the red leds to shave the difference.
Something to think about.

Aloha,
Weezard.

[DreadedHermie]

you might be able to use one 100-15 driver on the blue with dropping resistors in series with the red leds to shave the difference.


Nope, I want to run separate drivers for the reds and blues. Using resistors and creating waste heat just seems sloppy to me. If it were a real small lamp it'd be different.

Actually, I've been planning to build two lights, 75-90 watts each. So if I overbuy for the blue driver I can power the blues in both lights with a single driver, yes? I just wanted to build one light at a time so I can work out any kinks before I do the second one.

One thing I noticed, the specs for the PLN-60 and PLN-100 are nearly identical in the 12V versions. The higher voltage PLN-100's begin to outrun the PLN-60's, but the 12V PLN-100 is only rated at 60W. :confused:

The data sheet for the red 630's (I don't think there's one out for the 660's yet) led me to believe they'll want 11.4 volts MAX if I remember right. But you described a trick somewhere for determining what LED's want by using your bench supply. Might have been just turning the thing up until it kicks over to current limiting. Haveta look around for that. Seems wise to experiment with the bench supply before actually purchasing the driver so I get it right. And, I can use the bench supply to drive the LED's, too. :D

But your suggestions are right on the money. Keep 'em coming!:thumbsup:

[DreadedHermie]

Using resistors and creating waste heat just seems sloppy to me. If it were a real small lamp it'd be different.

Not only did that sound kinda snobby, it's not really what I meant. :stoned: What I was thinking was: only if the difference in voltage requirements of the reds vs. the blues is small, does shaving a volt or two with resistors make sense. :thumbsup: Indeed, in that circumstance, dropping the blues a bit with a resistor may be the wisest solution--especially if bringing in a separate power supply is problematic.

I just got used to planning for a worst-case scenario based on the data sheets for the LEDs. Depending on what bin the dealer decides to send you, it looked like it was very possible to wind up with blue LEDs wanting a full 4 volts more than the reds. :( I guess I resigned myself to thinking that was what I was gonna wind up with.

But Weezard, I guess you've been tellling me your blue and red 15 watters are not that far apart in their voltage requirements. That opens up new possibilities (like judicious use of resistors). Sorry, I'm dense sometimes! :i feel stupid:

[Weezard]

Aloha DH

Kinda waitin' 'til you have the LEDs in hand and can use the variable supply to label them with the actual Vf, at the current you want.
You can use the variable voltage function and increase the voltage until you reach the target current. Or you can use CC mode if you turn the voltage all the way up and adjust current up to the target and, in either case, just record your meter readings.
Should come out the same regardless of the approach, ya?

Theory is lots of fun, but, once you have actual facts in hand, design kinda handles it'self.:cool:

Once we know what is, we'll know what needs to be.
No wasted speculation, now mind be mo' free.
Once you've whittled many paths down to 2 or 3.
'tis then, the path that you will choose, seems obvious to me.:D

Sorry!
It happens.:jointsmile:

Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

Once you've whittled many paths down to 2 or 3.
'tis then, the path that you will choose, seems obvious to me.



Quite right. It's just that I whittle a lot faster than I can type! ;) Sorry if I seem to be going several directions at once (wait a second, I ALWAYS go several directions at once! :thumbsup:) but you've given a LOT of good ideas, some of which required some quick self-education on my end. Seems like if, after considering all the reasonable possibilities, I keep coming back to the same place, that I'm getting real close to the "answer." Thanks to you, I do have a very clear (although "adjustable") picture of where I'm going with this.


I think I've figured out the order I need to acquire parts to make sure they all play nice together. (Although, deep in my heart, I am lusting after that 100-15 driver! :D) Getting as much as possible from few vendors saves a bit on shipping, too.

Already ordered:

1) Arctic Silver epoxy, plus the 2-part cleaning solution set. I'm expecting some kinda grease, anti-oxidant coating, or something like that to be on the heat sinks. ($23.23 shipped)

2) Two 8.5x 13" sections of that heavy heatsink. Grand total with shipping: $62.55. Should be here by Wednesday. Decided to get the sinks together to save shipping, but just building one light right now.

I want to mount two 92mm fans right against the fins of each heatsink, like the 80mm is mounted on the Procyon. I just need to confirm that the mounting holes for the fan line up with gaps between the fins. Once I know what fans I'm using, I can put in the order for the LED's and get finger guards for the fans on the same order. (Later next week.) :dance: Once I get the LED's I can measure 'em and decide on a PS. (Although I REALLY want a 100-15. Did I mention that? :D)

Meanwhile I'll play with the sinks a bit to see how they balance, etc. to decide how to mount the flying hardware (prolly just use ringbolts). MIGHT be nice to be able to hang the light "sideways" too, although I don't plan to use it that way.



Anyway: I believe each heatsink is over 5 lbs. of aluminum. I was planning ("no gotta calculate, overkill will do jus' fine";)) to run (2) 12V 92mm fans gently on a 9V wallwart to keep the junctions as happy as possible. Is this crazy overkill? Is that enough heatsink where a wise man wouldn't even use a fan? You mentioned a thermal switch on your lamp. Are you actually able to get by with passive cooling? Or is the switch doing something other than kicking in your active cooling, like shutting things off above a certain temp?? I'd like to see how you have that set up.


Kinda waitin' 'til you have the LEDs in hand and can use the variable supply to label them with the actual Vf, at the current you want.
Yes. Your guidance will be critical here. Little apprehensive about firing them up the first time, and I don't even own 'em yet! (See avatar.)


:confused: :what: :confused: :silly: :stupid:

[DreadedHermie]

Once we know what is, we'll know what needs to be.
No wasted speculation, now mind be mo' free.
Once you've whittled many paths down to 2 or 3.
'tis then, the path that you will choose, seems obvious to me.



Weezard, your knobs clearly go all the way to "11." ;)

You done one-upped the Bard.

You leave me no choice but to reply in Haiku. This is for you, and I call it, "Elegy to some LEDs:"

Tiny sparkling lights
Struggle under current load
Poof! A smoky death.

Regards,
Hermie-san. :stoned:

[Weezard]

No worry brah.
Evah li'l t'ing, gone be jus' fine:jointsmile:


Weezard, your knobs clearly go all the way to "11." ;)

You done one-upped the Bard.

You leave me no choice but to reply in Haiku. This is for you, and I call it, "Elegy to some LEDs:"

Tiny sparkling lights
Struggle under current load
Poof! A smoky death.

Regards,
Hermie-san. :stoned:

Haiku?
Youku!

I call him.
"Tomorrow."

Shards of pure color
Grew large buds with magic rays
Tonight we smoke bliss.


Weezard-san
:stoned::stoned::stoned: to the tits.:cool:

[DreadedHermie]

Weezard, you're a true renaissance man. What a lovely haiku. Mine was rather bleak by comparison. :(

Not sure I get "Tomorrow" unless it's this one:
"Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time"

I got impatient and ordered the LEDs just now. 2 blues and 5 reds. And at only .80 each I took a chance on a couple finger guards.

I'd like to squeeze 5 reds on the light but the power supplies I'm looking at seem best to drive 4. (Did I mention that 100-15? :D :D :D )

So, maybe I'll use red #5 in the next build.

Also found some PMD controllers at Quickar. There's one for $10 that looks like something I saw on your lamp, prolly that blue controller that you jumpered around after it fried. Those might be useful, unless they're failure-prone. :angelsmiley:

[DreadedHermie]

The thermal glue arrived, too. The 92mm fans do line up (to miss) the fins. I am thinking now about cramming 6 reds in a domino-6 pattern and centering the blues in the middle. Weezard, is that "too much light" in a small area?

[attachment=o213587]

[attachment=o213588]

I could fit 4 fans on this thing......

[attachment=o213589]

[Weezard]

Is that too much light?

Now, that's just crazy talk.:D

I like the 6 n 2 setup.
You can go from 3:1 R:B to 6:1 with the flip of a switch.
Though a dimmer would give the control that you want.
I like the centered blue array as well.
Blue triggers phototropism and we want the terminal bud to seek the center of the light.
2 fans should be jus' fine.
Depends on how hard you drive the leds.

Once they are mounted on the sink, you can light 'em up with the variable supply, and see how a passive sink handles the heat.
If it stays under 40 degrees C. you don't really need a fan.
Between 40 and 50 C. in the first hour?
Add a thermal switch in series with the fan to conserve power.
Over 50 degrees in a the first hour of burnin?
Hardwire both fans.

On that PWM.
Prolly the same one that I fried.
Can't blame the device though.
I pushed my luck with a fraction of a volt over the max rating.:o

(Li'l tiny Zards make big dumb mistakes alla time)

Nobody's prefect
Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

The server just got overloaded, or so it claimed, and ate my post! Gotta start saving work as I go, maybe.
Anyway, the first heatsink is all drilled and tapped. Ordered (4) 92mm fans.


I like the 6 n 2 setup.
Me, too! 6 it is! :D


You can go from 3:1 R:B to 6:1 with the flip of a switch.
I need some help here. If I just switch a blue LED out of the circuit won't the driver attempt to deliver the current (that was split between the blues) to the single blue?


If it stays under 40 degrees C. you don't really need a fan.
Between 40 and 50 C. in the first hour?
Add a thermal switch in series with the fan to conserve power.
Over 50 degrees in a the first hour of burnin?
Hardwire both fans

Thank you so much. I needed that info badly. Is there a way to get an accurate enough reading without buying an IR thermometer? And, do you have a part# or description of the thermal switch I might need?

Thought of another possible layout. [attachment=o213685] Thoughts? LED's should be here Thursday! :D:D:D Thanks for all your help. This is fun! :thumbsup:

[Weezard]

The server just got overloaded, or so it claimed, and ate my post! Gotta start saving work as I go, maybe.
Anyway, the first heatsink is all drilled and tapped. Ordered (4) 92mm fans.


Me, too! 6 it is! :D

I need some help here. If I just switch a blue LED out of the circuit won't the driver attempt to deliver the current (that was split between the blues) to the single blue?

Sorry, works fine with C.V. forgot we were dealing with C.C. here.:o
You are correct, switching one out would make the supply increase the voltage to try to keep the current constant.
Once you exceed Vf.max, poof! All bus' up!
All da magic smoke gets loose an' he no work now.:rastasmoke:


Thank you so much. I needed that info badly. Is there a way to get an accurate enough reading without buying an IR thermometer? And, do you have a part# or description of the thermal switch I might need?

Candy thermometer will work and an educated fingertip will serve you well during burn-in.

As for thermal switch. I just hit E-bay and typed "thermal switch" into the search engine.
They are cheap and plentiful.
Won't hurt to hardwire the fans until you know if you actually have need of the switches.
They are easy enough to add later.

Thought of another possible layout. [attachment=o213685] Thoughts? LED's should be here Thursday! :D:D:D Thanks for all your help. This is fun! :thumbsup:

My pleasure!
It was on my way.:D

Aloha
Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

Sorry, works fine with C.V. forgot we were dealing with C.C. here.
You are correct, switching one out would make the supply increase the voltage to try to keep the current constant.


I think those Mean Well's I want are CV and CC, if that makes any difference.

Let's say I have 13V @ 4800 mA going to 4 blue LEDs in parallel. Each blue is drawing ~1200mA, yes? Now, I switch one blue out of the circuit. Do the remaining 3 blues divide the 4800mA if the voltage remains at 13V?
That's the part I'm not sure about. Maybe a safe way to check it would be "backwards," like setting things safely for one LED and switching a second one INTO the circuit, and seeing what the driver does in response?? :stoned:

[Weezard]

I think those Mean Well's I want are CV and CC, if that makes any difference.

Let's say I have 13V @ 4800 mA going to 4 blue LEDs in parallel. Each blue is drawing ~1200mA, yes? Now, I switch one blue out of the circuit. Do the remaining 3 blues divide the 4800mA if the voltage remains at 13V?

No.
If the voltage remains constant, each led will still draw 1.2 A. for a total of 3.6A.

I = E/R
If we change R. and keep I. constant, E. must change.
If E. is held constant and we change R., then I. must change.
etc.
It's the LAW. :D

That's the part I'm not sure about. Maybe a safe way to check it would be "backwards," like setting things safely for one LED and switching a second one INTO the circuit, and seeing what the driver does in response?? :stoned:

Once you've tested and recorded Vf. and I. for each individual LED, you will know if one will try to "hog" the current.
(A led with significantly lower Vf. will draw more current than it's neighbor.)
That's why we never try to run paralleled leds at or near I. max.
With luck, all your emitters will be within .01 V. and it will not be an issue.
So, bring them up one at a time to 1.2A and record the Vf.
We can then make minor adjustments as needed.:cool:

Gotta run.
zooooom.
W.

[DreadedHermie]

Finally. I'm making some jigs by cementing 2 washers together, so I can epoxy the LEDs to the heatsink without putting pressure directly on the lens. :)

I'm gonna glue first, then wire. Weezard, is 20 guage stranded wire enough to supply each individual LED?

[Weezard]

Finally. I'm making some jigs by cementing 2 washers together, so I can epoxy the LEDs to the heatsink without putting pressure directly on the lens. :)

I'm gonna glue first, then wire. Weezard, is 20 guage stranded wire enough to supply each individual LED?

I would not do that!

Actually, I did just that.:o
But, I won't do it again.
Solder before you mount ,or buy a honkin big soldering iron.:D

The heatsink steals the heat and soldering then becomes a chore.

20 guage stranded will do jus' fine for short runs.
For long runs, I'd use 16 gauge stranded.

[DreadedHermie]

The PCB is so flexible, can't I just lift up the solder pad end and slip something between the pad and the heatsink while I solder? I've only just now attached one LED and only cemented pad behind the emitters, not the entire body of the device.

Seemed easier than having the thing squirm around while I try to attach the wires, then fighting the wires while I try to glue the LEDs down(?)

[DreadedHermie]

Weezard, I don't know much about electronics, but I can solder WAY better than your average bear. ;) I've got a Weller WESD51 digital station and Cardas Audio Quad Eutectic solder. Cardas advises a small wattage pencil @ 700 deg F. for small connections. There's not that much total heat to dissipate but it gets the connection done quickly. It's worked well for me in the past. Looks like a piece of cake to me. I didn't want to use bigger supply wire than necessary 'cos to avoid dissipating excess heat into the the device (?)
I've got a big-ass gun too, but I wouldn't put that many watts on such a small package unless necessary. What say you? :confused:

[Weezard]

:o
The PCB is so flexible, can't I just lift up the solder pad end and slip something between the pad and the heatsink while I solder? I've only just now attached one LED and only cemented pad behind the emitters, not the entire body of the device.

Seemed easier than having the thing squirm around while I try to attach the wires, then fighting the wires while I try to glue the LEDs down(?)

Like the man said. "typed before I thought"
It's the ledengine beeg boys, ya?
Glue away .

Ignore the doddering stoner that was obviously thinking 5 Watt MCBs.

I think it was the washers trick that threw me.
I just used a fat rubberband for mine.

I'll try to pay mo' betta attention, but :stoned:...

Lolo Weeze

[Weezard]

Weezard, I don't know much about electronics, but I can solder WAY better than your average bear. ;) I've got a Weller WESD51 digital station and Cardas Audio Quad Eutectic solder. Cardas advises a small wattage pencil @ 700 deg F. for small connections. There's not that much total heat to dissipate but it gets the connection done quickly. It's worked well for me in the past. Looks like a piece of cake to me. I didn't want to use bigger supply wire than necessary 'cos to avoid dissipating excess heat into the the device (?)
I've got a big-ass gun too, but I wouldn't put that many watts on such a small package unless necessary. What say you? :confused:

Again, disregard my soldering mis-adventures.
I glued a batch of 5 Watt MPCBs to a heatsink before soldering on my first array and am still kickin' myself over it.
:weedpoke::jointsmile: :rastasmoke: :smokin: :rasta: :stoned: :S5: :bigsmoke: :error:
The 20 guage wire between leds is jus' peachy.
It's the long run, (from supply to the lamp) that I would use 16 g. for.
Because it's cheap, readily available and overkill.

In a fog
Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

Not too happy with my first glue joint. A little thicker than I would have liked. :mad:

Gonna dash off to the hardware and get some wire, I need one more color so I can keep Blue LED + and - and Red LED + and - easily identifiable. If you have time to check back in later, I'd feel a bit more confident. It'll be a few hours but I'd like to at least test fire this baby tonight! :yippee:

[DreadedHermie]

It's the long run, (from supply to the lamp) that I would use 16 g. for.


Actually, I found some 2 conductor 14 ga with a nice flexible jacket called "low voltage wire" which I think is intended for decorative lighting. Not sure what my eventual driver situation will be but for running 6 LEDs off my bench supply I think I'll use that. It's such a short run, I can be extravagant for 6 feet! :D

I may run a separate 16 g. to each pair of LEDs, that'll be easy to work out once I've got parts in hand.

[DreadedHermie]

It's been an expensive night so far. :sadcrying I got everything glued onto the heatsink. The first joint which I thought was too thick was actually OK, but I somehow killed that LED anyway.

First, I set the Mastech to full volts, no amps. I just touched the probes to a red LED. It lit briefly, not super bright, but when I tried it a second time, nothing. I could see one of the 4 emitters was darkened--it was fried. It was almost like the power supply gave it a capacitive discharge.

I fired up the other reds, one a time, with no problems. Let them burn in for awhile; they were fairly consistent 10.8V giving 1.2A and 11.2-3V giving 1.5A. Then, on one of many go-rounds, that first one I glued failed to light. On examination, that one also had one cooked quadrant.

The wire I was using was so stiff it was really manhandling the LEDs. I tried to hold off on attaching the wires to the sink cause I hadn't had a chance too really think about they'd be routed: through a hole, around the side, etc. I managed to rip a solder pad each off two of them. Fortunately, I was able to scrale down to the trace and get a lead soldered to them. That's when I decided to go ahead and just use some thermal epoxy to secure the wires near the LEDs for some strain relief.

Gets worse. Still online?

[DreadedHermie]

Cause I cooked them, too. Both of 'em. :sadcrying

They were working fine, although they wern't too close electrically.
Blue#1: 15.2V gave 1.5A, 14.7V gave 1.2A
Blue #2: 15.6v gave 1.5A, 15.1V gave 1.2A

I ran them singly, and together, and let 'em burn in for awhile. Here's where I must have made a mistake, but then I'm still not sure how these CC / CV supplies are "bending" the "law." It seemed like the pair should be able to handle 3A between them. 14.8V gave 2.2A when I dialed it in. I played around near those parametersfor awhile, disconnected them (spike there somehow?) and when I tried to reignite them, they too had one "corner" out.
So the blues are history, too. :i feel stupid:

Not really sure why I've had such a destructive night. I've still got 3 working reds, but now I don't want to hook them up as a group without some advice. Should 3 of them be able to take 3.6A at 10.8V, or will this PS somehow feed 3.6A to each of them? :confused:

[Weezard]

Wow! you are having one expensive night.
The 1.5A rating is the absolute max and is not usually do-able in real life.
So, in order to push an emitter to abs max current one might have to exceed Vf max.
That will show no mercy. a millisecond is too long
Ouch, brah!

[Weezard]

Cause I cooked them, too. Both of 'em. :sadcrying

They were working fine, although they wern't too close electrically.
Blue#1: 15.2V gave 1.5A, 14.7V gave 1.2A
Blue #2: 15.6v gave 1.5A, 15.1V gave 1.2A

A .48 ohm resistor in series with Blue #1 would have balanced the two emitters in parallel at 15.1 V.

I ran them singly, and together, and let 'em burn in for awhile. Here's where I must have made a mistake, but then I'm still not sure how these CC / CV supplies are "bending" the "law." It seemed like the pair should be able to handle 3A between them. 14.8V gave 2.2A when I dialed it in. I played around near those parametersfor awhile, disconnected them (spike there somehow?) and when I tried to reignite them, they too had one "corner" out.
So the blues are history, too. :i feel stupid:

Not really sure why I've had such a destructive night. I've still got 3 working reds, but now I don't want to hook them up as a group without some advice. Should 3 of them be able to take 3.6A at 10.8V, or will this PS somehow feed 3.6A to each of them? :confused:

If they draw 1.2A at 10.8V within .1 V. each, then 3 in parallel should divide the 3.6 A. draw almost equally.
I'm wondering if you are getting zapped by static electricity.
These pups will not tolerated much reverse bias. and should be treated like cmos when handled.
That means no shoes and/or a wrist strap.
Never did ask where you are from.
Most of the mainland is cold and low humidity in February.
Perfect conditions for zapping LEDs.

[DreadedHermie]

Don't think it's static. Hot and humid here, all year long. (That's why I need the LEDs.) Dirty power's probably at least as likely, and I don't think that's it either. The problems occur when I hook up multiple LEDs. And they never seem to "blow" while they're operating.

When I got started, I deliberated toasted a whole grab bag of Radio Shack cheapies just so I'd get a feel for how it happens. This is strange. They seem to be working okay, and when I go to start 'em up again, nothing happens. :confused: On exam, they're cooked. I 4 x color-coded the wires so I'd be able to easily tell 'em apart--pretty certain I didn't reverse-bias 'em, too.

Maybe I "milliseconded" them by accident. In that case do they keep working but refuse to fire up next time?

[Weezard]

Don't think it's static. Hot and humid here, all year long. (That's why I need the LEDs.) Dirty power's probably at least as likely, and I don't think that's it either. The problems occur when I hook up multiple LEDs. And they never seem to "blow" while they're operating.

When I got started, I deliberated toasted a whole grab bag of Radio Shack cheapies just so I'd get a feel for how it happens. This is strange. They seem to be working okay, and when I go to start 'em up again, nothing happens. :confused: On exam, they're cooked. I 4 x color-coded the wires so I'd be able to easily tell 'em apart--pretty certain I didn't reverse-bias 'em, too.

Maybe I "milliseconded" them by accident. In that case do they keep working but refuse to fire up next time?

Let's think about this.

If you apply input power to a constant current regulator with no load.
It will "see" almost no resistance at it's output.
Whatever your pre-set current is, the supply will raise it's voltage as high as it can to try to hit that preset.
So a supply with no load will sit at whatever voltage you have preset.
That means you must have a load connected when you turn on the supply.
If you power-up the supply and then try to connect or disconnect a load, the supply may get confused and voltage spike your load.
It's a very short spike, but more than enough to punch a hole in a led junction.
When testing I start with everything tightly connected, use variable voltage setting and bring it up slowly until I hit my target current. Then record the voltage reading.
I turn off the supply and wait a few seconds for the supply to drain before disconnecting anything.
Have not fried a big led yet.
Did eat a couple 3 Watt mpcb when I was learning, though.

Keep in mind, that it's before 11 am my time. So take anything I write before noon with a boxcar of salt.

Not a morning person.

Breakfast is up, I'll be back later.

Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

Thanks for the continued support. The LED's may have won the first round (a Pyrrhic victory, for sure) but I am not giving up (yet). Taking the mutts for a walk to clear my head, and prolly reorder parts tonight.

Your analyses of the potential causes for the problems seem valid to me. All I know of operating this Mastech is the little pamphlet it shipped with. Doesn't cover much; includes a couple of recipes for LED disaster, apparently. I definitely was disconnecting the LEDs abruptly and this possibly resulted in some of my catastrophies, since the LEDs appeared to be working fine when I disconnected them. I think I was subconsciously (rather, consciously and ignorantly) trying to avoid a turn-off spike from the PS and in the process spiked them even more effectively.

Anything you can think of to help keep the next batch of LEDs alive will be appreciated.

[denialisback]

No worries, brah. I thought it was droll.

And your avatar is great!
Reminded me of my first stab at being the electrician, (or somebody like him), at about that age..
('cept I used a small, stainless steel, turbine blade that I held with a boxing glove.)
Jammed it in a broken socket 'cause I wanted to "magnetize" it.
Parental units were not amused.:D

So, it's time to outshine the Procyon.
Been saving my pennies and it's need to build some more Ledengin 15W arrays.

Been playing with an idea that involves 3/4" soft copper water pipe.
Want to coil it in a flat spiral, squish the spiral disk almost flat, sand and polish one side and attach the LEDs with thermal cement.
Then, if I hang it from the center I end up with a "cone-o-light"
Pumping water through the pipe and back into a res. will cool the leds and keep res. temps up in the winter for mainland folks.
I'll probably have to feed it from the tap and tie the output into my drip irrigation for the yard.
That will transport the heat out of the grow room.
Still a pipe dream, until I get to the plumbing supply store.

Howz your design coming?

Aloha,
Weezard

This is a very good idea, congratulations :D Water cooled led set, I was thinking of doing the same with my HID HPS 400w grolux but I decided to go CFL, possibly 20x50W or something heh.. who knows i might need this for the 50 20watters heh.

Peace,
Denial

[Weezard]

Mahalo!

Weeze

[Weezard]

Thanks for the continued support. The LED's may have won the first round (a Pyrrhic victory, for sure) but I am not giving up (yet). Taking the mutts for a walk to clear my head, and prolly reorder parts tonight.

Your analyses of the potential causes for the problems seem valid to me. All I know of operating this Mastech is the little pamphlet it shipped with. Doesn't cover much; includes a couple of recipes for LED disaster, apparently. I definitely was disconnecting the LEDs abruptly and this possibly resulted in some of my catastrophies, since the LEDs appeared to be working fine when I disconnected them. I think I was subconsciously (rather, consciously and ignorantly) trying to avoid a turn-off spike from the PS and in the process spiked them even more effectively.

Good analysis!

Disconnecting an alligator clip sounds "clean" until you see it on a 'scope.
Literally, thousands of "off n onnies" in a fraction of a second. Looks like a burst of rf.
If there's any inductance at all in the circuit, at these currents, the spikes will be higher than the dc level and will be in the wrong direction!
Once you get over a few amps, coiling a lead for strain relief is enough inductance to make trouble.
Then there are small, distributed capacitances...

Anything you can think of to help keep the next batch of LEDs alive will be appreciated.

So, next time, hard wire the leds and use the power switch on the supply to power down and we should be OK.
I've been running 13. 5 Watt leds from my Mastech for months with the supply on a timer.
Keep it set at 12.6V 3.4A.
So I bang the AC on and off with few problems.
(it did occasionally cause my UPS to "freak out" and beeeep at me.)

Had to plug the timer into a plain old socket and eschew the UPS for those leds because when it siezed-up like that it shut down the airpumps.
Not acceptable!

I feel your pain, brah.
Fried my first home-made geiger counter in the '60s.
Almost cried when the magic smoke got out.

Aloha,
Weezard.

[DreadedHermie]

LED wives and mothers are waving tearfully goodbye to their loved ones: the unfortunate few who have been selected to do glorious battle with the now-infamous Dreaded Hermie. No one speaks of it, but they all know: we might not survive this....

[attachment=o213864]

[DreadedHermie]

Disconnecting an alligator clip sounds "clean" until you see it on a 'scope.
Literally, thousands of "off n onnies" in a fraction of a second. Looks like a burst of rf.
If there's any inductance at all in the circuit, at these currents, the spikes will be higher than the dc level and will be in the wrong direction!
Once you get over a few amps, coiling a lead for strain relief is enough inductance to make trouble.
Then there are small, distributed capacitances...

So, next time, hard wire the leds and use the power switch on the supply to power down and we should be OK.
I've been running 13. 5 Watt leds from my Mastech for months with the supply on a timer.
Keep it set at 12.6V 3.4A.
So I bang the AC on and off with few problems.
(it did occasionally cause my UPS to "freak out" and beeeep at me.)



Weezard, thanks. These details/specifics are what I'm needing. I reordered my supplies and should be back blowing stuff up by the end of the week, although responsibilities in the "real" world may cut into my mad scientist time over the coming weeks. Getting older ain't so bad, but having to act like an actual adult does get tiresome. ;)

I started looking at thermal switches. Most that are referred to that way on the 'Bay open the circuit at a given (rising) temp. The ones that close the circuit seem to be called "thermostats" or fan switches. From your brief description of operation I'm gonna assume the latter is what you're using.

Looking at a pic of your light, looks like you have 3 of them, all mounted in places you'd expect the sink to be the hottest--right near the leds. It also looks like you've got it wired so any one of the switches can complete the circuit by itself. Close? :detective1:

I found some switches that close when temps rise to 50 deg. C. Looks like the right range for me, although certainly I'll hard wire both fans at first.

[attachment=o213907]

DH

[DreadedHermie]

[attachment=o213910]

The attachment's just the pdf datasheet from Mouser. Couldn't get it to work, trying again. :wtf:

[Weezard]

[attachment=o213910]

The attachment's just the pdf datasheet from Mouser. Couldn't get it to work, trying again. :wtf:

STC 120 looks about right.

And you are spot on about;

"It also looks like you've got it wired so any one of the switches can complete the circuit by itself. Close? :detective1: "

Give that man a ceegar!:jointsmile::D

Duty cycle depends on ambient.
Generally, the fan runs for 30 minutes and then shuts off for 10 minutes.
Found 'em cheap, so I bought a dozen.
Figure I can use them to ride herd on my peltier devices.:cool:(Long story.)

Aloha,
Weeze.

[DreadedHermie]

So I looked at 'em. Looks like a miniature heat pump. Great idea, if you have a place to exhaust the heat. :( The ones I saw drew like 2A, though. Is this the kinda thing you're talking about?

[Weezard]

So I looked at 'em. Looks like a miniature heat pump. Great idea, if you have a place to exhaust the heat. :( The ones I saw drew like 2A, though. Is this the kinda thing you're talking about?

Bought them to cool leds but the power draw was not acceptable.

So, designed a shake table with a shroud to pull the heat from their hot sides.
The cold sides form a chamber that is held well below freezing.
The bottom of the chamber is a set of drawers with silkscreen stretched across them.
Trying to automate bubblehash production without all the ice-water and work.

Put the sugar-leaf in the chamber, turn on the shaker, wait a bit, scrape chilly kif , (Bubba Hash),:D off of the screens.

Just another pipe dream that may or may not work well.
It's not like I'm too busy to play, ya?
Zippy would be proud. Yow!

Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

:clap: Dang, Weezard! You are like the Thomas Edison of reefer! (Or Rube Goldberg, maybe.) :D

I think I would try to mount such a machine in a semi-functional clothes dryer. The rotating drum (esp. if it's off-balance) could give you the shaking, and if you could get the waste heat to the drum you could at least dry your delicates with it.

Supporting a local economy is admirable, so shaking the table via hula-power is an inviting possiblity, and so socially responsible. ;)

I half expect you to come up with a machine that you just put a seed in, and 5 months later it spits out a nicely rolled doob. :jointsmile:

Received leds and fans already (also a PLN 60-15 and a 60-12). :dance: Hopefully I can find time to play this weekend, and go slow enough not to destroy anything else. :(

Any more helpful hints along those lines? :hippy:

[DreadedHermie]

When testing I start with everything tightly connected, use variable voltage setting and bring it up slowly until I hit my target current. Then record the voltage reading.


Weezard, I don't want to have a semantic-induced disaster here, so: The instructions I got with my Mastech are worded this way:

2.2 Operating Procedure

2.2.1 For constant voltage mode adjust controls 3 & 4 clockwise....
2.2.2 For constant current mode adjust controls 5 & 6 clockwise....
2.2.3 For restricted current protection mode switch on the power...

I can type the whole sections out (they're short) if this is different than the instruction book you got with your Mastech. They don't discuss a "variable voltage" setting per se, and following their procedures outlined above has been costly. Sorry to be such a dolt, but could you outline your start-up procedure to include "knob positions" before power-up, or otherwise reconcile your expression "variable voltage" to Mastech's "constant" or "restricted" modes?

I know following their instructions exactly will spike the leds. My electronics training consists entirely of having worked as a janitor at an audio shop in the early 70's (after I ran out of $ for school) and looking over the tech's shoulders as they worked and eavesdropping on their techie conversations. These guys were not too keen to share any info, and trying to read books (pre-internet) to figure out what they were talking about was really frustrating. I understand what pots and resistors do, and have been zapped by a few caps that were storing up a present for me. :eek: I have used tiny leds for years as indicator lights (with a drop-down resistor) but these high-power emitters are a different beast for sure.

I can do the simple math involved with calculations involving Ohm's law, but sometimes I'm baffled about which terms to plug into the equation, like when there are multiple values (2.2V here, 1.2V on the other side of a resistor, etc.)--which one gets plugged into the equation? :i feel stupid: (if that makes any sense?)

Thanks in advance. I think if you can explain this so I can understand it, I can eventually do a tutorial / build log so anybody that can solder can also do it. There's quite a few folks following this thread, unproductive as it has been to this point, so I think the interest is out there.

Seems like commercially produced led grow lamps are not getting any cheaper (contrary to what usually happens with tech stuff), and the Procyon was the only one that was honest about what components were used. Unfortunately, you risk paying high dollars for glorified china panels if you don't assemble the components yourself. There are a lot of profiteers out there jumping on the led bandwagon, but the fact that they're overstating their products' capabilities is causing lots of folks to discount led growing altogether.

[DreadedHermie]

I think if you can explain this so I can understand it

Sorry, Weezard. The power supply operation. That's what I'm talking about. Not the Ohm's Law stuff. If the need arises I'll make a calculation and ask for feedback.

I've been typing in a hurry, sorry if my posts have been jumping around a bit. Hermie

[Weezard]

Sorry, Weezard. The power supply operation. That's what I'm talking about. Not the Ohm's Law stuff. If the need arises I'll make a calculation and ask for feedback.

I've been typing in a hurry, sorry if my posts have been jumping around a bit. Hermie

No worries, been jumping around a bit meself of late.
Social obligations and all.
Will get back to you on the rest.

That "manual" was worse than worthless.
I tossed it and played it by ear.
Variable voltage is prolly what they call constant voltage.
I'll see about knobs 3, 4, 5, & 6 setting tomorrow.
The girls are asleep right now.

Basically, it's safe to turn the current adjust clockwise, (all the way up), and bring the voltage adjust up slowly until the current meter reads, say 1.25A.
the voltmeter will then show the actual Vf for that led.
Magic marker each LED, then plan on how to feed them.

What kine. manual did you get with the PLXXs?

l8r
Weeze

[Neural]

This thread has been very helpful and too much of a coincidence for me not to post. Before I get into it, Weezard thanks for keeping your name the same across multiple forums, googling your name was what made me find and join this forum.

Crunchy - Completely independently, I swear :-), we ended up with almost the same LED set. I purchased 4 660, 1 Dental, and 2 WW 15watts from LEDEngin.

I'm in the process of getting all my materials together and am trying to figure out how to power these beasts, circuit theory 1 was entirely too long ago and I'm struggling. I'm thinking about going the easy route since I don't the appropriate equipment to create my own driver, so... I'm thinking of going the route of Mean Well PLN-60-48 to power the blue and the ww in series since their Vf is similar and possibly getting another one to power the 4 reds. First, is that the right choice? Secondly, I have a email out to LEDEngine for a data sheet on the 660, but if the numbers match the regular red data sheet I think I would be ok using the same power supply for my 660's. I've read this entire thread about 3 times now and I don't think the Vf for the 660's was measured, is it around 11V?

I also bought 7 cheap cpu heat sinks w/ fans to cool the LED's. Is there an easy way for me to power the cpu fans with the power supplies above or am I going to have to power them some other way?

Weezard - you have no idea how much research I have done in the past month, it's almost embarrassing. Finding and reading your posts was quite exciting and convinced me to spend my cash. Thanks.

[DreadedHermie]

Welcome, Neural! Now Weezard class has two students enrolled.

I will give you my opinions happily, but until my ramblings are approved or condemned by Weezard, please take them for just that: the ramblings of a convicted LED killer. :pimp: I can you tell things that I did that probably cost $35 per boo-boo; knowing to avoid them should help... :hippy:


I fired up the other reds, one a time, with no problems. Let them burn in for awhile; they were fairly consistent

10.8V giving 1.2A and
11.2-3V giving 1.5A.

Then, on one of many go-rounds, that first one I glued failed to light.


The higher you set the voltage on your power supply the more current the leds will draw. So, the group of 660's I got was very consistent and 10.8V would have been good for all of them. If you got 1 oddball that drew 1.2 amps at only 9V you'd need use a series resistor to prevent it from receiving more than 9V as you turn the shared supply up to 10.8V to power the "normal" leds. This is the problem with running the leds in series string. Putting that resistor on the 9V led puts it in series with all the other leds. too. So you get nowhere in terms of balancing the circuit.


DO NOT go all the way to 1.5A. This is a theoretical max and you can't run 'em that hard in the working light because, for example, if they get hotter they'll pull MORE juice, which will make them HOTTER, and so on.

1.2A is where Weezard likes to run the reds. There's a procedure for measuring Vf that employs a CC / CV bench power supply. You got wunna dem? (you can run the leds off 'em too, hint, hint).

The conventional wisdom (which I totally IGNORED when I ordered my drivers) is to mount the leds to a heatsink and see what voltage it takes to drive the led with your desired current. (using the bench suppply trick). Then you order a driver to fill that need. The Mean Well's are adjustable, so we should be able to get them dialed right in.

IF (big if) your WW and DB have almost identical Vf, and you put them in a series string, they would want ~45V to pull 1.2A each. The Mean Well claims to adjust down to 43.6V, so that should certainly work. But, you've got no simple way that I know of to balance the individual Vf's. (You know these 15Watt leds are really 4 x 5 watters in a series package, right?) They function like a "series string" of the older, individual emitters, so that's how I'm approaching putting them into the circuit. I plan on using the PLN 60-15 for my blues and wiring them in parallel so I can use balancing resistors if necessary.

You might check out the PWM controllers at Quikar.com. They look useful for balancing things out, you might be able to employ one for your fans. If you were running your reds at 11VC or so 12V case fans would work, but I'd get a second opinion on combining leds and fans on the same run.

Watt for watt, led drivers are so expensive and crap-ola wall-warts at 9-12V are sooo cheap, I plan on running the fans off their own circuit, mebbe 2, for backup.

The idea, as Weezard has said, is to waste as little energy as possible in resistors, etc. My problem is heat, so I especially don't need to be creating excess current only to dispose of it as heat.

[DreadedHermie]

Yes, Weezard--No manual with the Mean Well's. They prolly figure anybody who'd order one would know what to do with it. I planned to set them to the desired voltage with a meter.

I would like to do an in-circuit measurement (hooked up before power-up:thumbsup:) to confirm "no-sag" or "CV compensation for sag" at some point. Sound expensive yet?

[Weezard]

"You might check out the PWM controllers at Quikar.com. They look useful for balancing things out, you might be able to employ one for your fans."

Not a bad idea.:thumbsup:

"If you were running your reds at 11VC or so 12V case fans would work, but I'd get a second opinion on combining leds and fans on the same run."

Fans and leds on a CC supply?
Not a good idea.

"Watt for watt, led drivers are so expensive and crap-ola wall-warts at 9-12V are sooo cheap, I plan on running the fans off their own circuit, mebbe 2, for backup."

Much better idea.:cool:

Ideally, we would not need fans at all.
But, that's another pipe dream.:hippy:

Park and lock it.
Not responsible.;)

Weezard

[Weezard]

This thread has been very helpful and too much of a coincidence for me not to post. Before I get into it, Weezard thanks for keeping your name the same across multiple forums, googling your name was what made me find and join this forum.

Aloha, Neural.
Mahalo and E como mai!
I'm just a simple, country 'zard, but you are welcome to whatever assistance we can provide.
..
Weezard - you have no idea how much research I have done in the past month, it's almost embarrassing.

Oh, ah dunno 'bout dat.
I just might have an inkling.:D
Did you get to read any of, "The Perfect LED Grow Light",
thread before it pissadeared?
Some brilliant stuff!

Finding and reading your posts was quite exciting and convinced me to spend my cash. Thanks.

Rutro!
Set loose the disclaimers!:)
Stack up the boilerplate.
Our liablility is limited to the admission price, or :twocents:, whichever is less.
Ah didn' do nodding!:D
You are welcome!
This is fun.

Wee Zard:jointsmile:

[DreadedHermie]

Blue#1: 15.2V gave 1.5A, 14.7V gave 1.2A
Blue #2: 15.6v gave 1.5A, 15.1V gave 1.2A

A .48 ohm resistor in series with Blue #1 would have balanced the two emitters in parallel at 15.1 V.



Weezard, how did you arrive at this? As I said before, I'm not sure which terms to plug into the equation.

[Weezard]

Weezard, how did you arrive at this? As I said before, I'm not sure which terms to plug into the equation.

The answer is quite simple.
I screwed up.:o
Must have been too early.:stoned:
Happens alla time. :rolleyes:
Sorry.

So, let's see if I can still figger.
Um.

R = E/I
So, .4/1.2 = .334 Should be .33 ohms. .34 is close enough and can be cobbled from 2 .68 ohm resistors in parallel.

Here's where I got bumfoozled.
P = E x I .4 x 1.2 = .48 W
A couple 1 or 2 Watt .68 ohm should run cool enough.

Let that be a lesson to ya.
If ya want math done right, yer gonna have to DIY.:(
There is no "I" in Weezard.;)

Oddly unabashed,
Wee Zard

[DreadedHermie]

It's posted stuff I was just trying to preview a couple times. When I tried to finish the previous post, it got eaten. :wtf:

Anyway, I'm back at it. Got new leds epoxied to the sink. Wired up and measured a couple reds, both of 'em almost "in the crack" between 2 voltages. About 10.6 and almost 10.9 for the other. Maybe not a problem, I may run 3 leds each on separate power supplies. That kinda depends, and I had calculated a question:

1.2A x 10.8V = 13W.
13W x 4 leds = 56 W.

NOW I read somewhere Mean Well likes 30% extra headroom (130W. of driver to push 100W.of leds) So 4 reds on that PLN 60-12 is close to full 5A load, any way you figure it. Trying to run 6 reds per light means a big-ass driver ($) or 2 x 3. My original plan was to run 4 reds per driver, with one driver split lighting the 2 "extra" leds on both lights.

How much headroom do they really need, is I guess what I'm asking.

These Mean Wells are very nicely made, BTW. :thumbsup: The trim pots that adjust voltage and current feel smooth, like a nice full size pot, and the taper is great, real smooth changes; easy to dial in.

The 12V adjusts from 10.61V to 13.27V (exactly, every time, measured with a Fluke 87) and the 15V goes from 13.21V to 16.55V.

Gonna try and post this now so I don't lose it.

[DreadedHermie]

R = E/I
So, .4/1.2 = .334 Should be .33 ohms. .34 is close enough and can be cobbled from 2 .68 ohm resistors in parallel

I get it! :clap: I was trying to "run the equation backwards" with .48ohms plugged in. I wasn't seeing any of the niumbers I was expecting....

Sorry, I'm leapfrogging posts.

If I run blues @ 15.1V:

1.2A x 15.1V= 18.12W each blue

3 x 18.12 = 54.36W

54.36W x 1.3 = 70.67W

Is that how you figure it? Is the PLN 60-15 just marginal to drive 3 blues, or are they just being real conservative?

[DreadedHermie]

Weezard, the 15.1V scenario is just hypothetical. I fried the leds that measured this way. :( I just wanted to know how to invoke The Law. :D

I've got the replacements glued on but haven't wired 'em yet. Been up all night (common problem) and I'm 6 hours ahead of you. No touchee $$$ leds till later! :stoned:

Anyway, suppose I've got a happy voltage dialed in for my blues, let's suppose these next ones want 14.8V to draw 1.2A. Here's the question: if I want to dim the blues, can I leave the voltage set where it is and just dial down the current limiter? (That way I could just eyeball the changes and not have to measure.) Or is the proper way to do this by dialing down the voltage?? Does it matter? Would one way create any more waste heat, or stress components more than the other way?

[Weezard]

Weezard, the 15.1V scenario is just hypothetical. I fried the leds that measured this way. :( I just wanted to know how to invoke The Law. :D

I've got the replacements glued on but haven't wired 'em yet. Been up all night (common problem) and I'm 6 hours ahead of you. No touchee $$$ leds till later! :stoned:

Gettin a little gun shy?:)

Anyway, suppose I've got a happy voltage dialed in for my blues, let's suppose these next ones want 14.8V to draw 1.2A. Here's the question: if I want to dim the blues, can I leave the voltage set where it is and just dial down the current limiter? (That way I could just eyeball the changes and not have to measure.) Or is the proper way to do this by dialing down the voltage?? Does it matter? Would one way create any more waste heat, or stress components more than the other way?

Changing the current WILL change the voltage as long as the load is relatively constant. So 6 of 1...
But with a current limit supply, it's best to vary the voltage because the current limit will keep the voltage "capped".

I'll need more coffee to respond to your earlier posts.

Solar powered 'Zard

[denialisback]

[FONT=Book Antiqua]Solar powered 'Zard


haha no way dude tell me you aren't providing your led electricity via solar panels, because something there would seem 'just outright wrong' lol.

feds, make some do the craziest of things, I guess lol even the smart ones haha


Peace,
Denial

[Weezard]

It's posted stuff I was just trying to preview a couple times. When I tried to finish the previous post, it got eaten. :wtf:

Boards flakin' again.
Good idea to highlight and hit control-C every 5 lines or so.

Anyway, I'm back at it. Got new leds epoxied to the sink. Wired up and measured a couple reds, both of 'em almost "in the crack" between 2 voltages. About 10.6 and almost 10.9 for the other. Maybe not a problem, I may run 3 leds each on separate power supplies. That kinda depends, and I had calculated a question:

1.2A x 10.8V = 13W.
13W x 4 leds = 56 W.

NOW I read somewhere Mean Well likes 30% extra headroom (130W. of driver to push 100W.of leds) So 4 reds on that PLN 60-12 is close to full 5A load, any way you figure it. Trying to run 6 reds per light means a big-ass driver ($) or 2 x 3. My original plan was to run 4 reds per driver, with one driver split lighting the 2 "extra" leds on both lights.

How much headroom do they really need, is I guess what I'm asking.

That would depend on the stability of the input, but 10% should be sufficient because your load is constant.

These Mean Wells are very nicely made, BTW. :thumbsup: The trim pots that adjust voltage and current feel smooth, like a nice full size pot, and the taper is great, real smooth changes; easy to dial in.

The 12V adjusts from 10.61V to 13.27V (exactly, every time, measured with a Fluke 87) and the 15V goes from 13.21V to 16.55V.

With a resistive load?

Gonna try and post this now so I don't lose it.


Seems to have worked.

Aloha,
W.

[Weezard]

I get it! :clap: I was trying to "run the equation backwards" with .48ohms plugged in. I wasn't seeing any of the niumbers I was expecting....



Sorry, I'm leapfrogging posts.

If I run blues @ 15.1V:

1.2A x 15.1V= 18.12W each blue

3 x 18.12 = 54.36W

54.36W x 1.3 = 70.67W

Is that how you figure it? Is the PLN 60-15 just marginal to drive 3 blues, or are they just being real conservative?


They are more likely to run at 12.6V or so at 1.2A.
You'll be lucky to get close to 15W. ea.
Since you are not going to get more than 45W. into 3 blue leds, the PLN60-15 will be just peachy.

45W. X 1.3 = 58.5W.

Next time I score some surplus cash, I'm gettin' acouple of those Meanwells.

Just beginning to get vertical.
Weezard

[Weezard]

haha no way dude tell me you aren't providing your led electricity via solar panels, because something there would seem 'just outright wrong' lol.

feds, make some do the craziest of things, I guess lol even the smart ones haha


Peace,
Denial

Howzit, D.?

Photovoltaics are on my wish list for the whole grass shack, someday.

But, in this case, I was referring to my personal limitations.
Like my li'l green buddies, I'm slow, stiff and creaky until I warm up a bit.
Coffee helps the brain, but the carcass is gettin' old.
Takes me an hour in the hot tub and a medicine pipe to stifle my sniveling in the AM.

Regards,
Wee Ancient 'Zard

[DreadedHermie]

The 12V adjusts from 10.61V to 13.27V (exactly, every time, measured with a Fluke 87) and the 15V goes from 13.21V to 16.55V.

With a resistive load?


Dunno, I'll experiment. I've got a 60W 12V incandescent bulb I used to light a shed, powered by a rechargeable boat battery. When I hooked it up to check sag the Meanwell (I'm gonna write it like you and save keystrokes) stayed pretty tight.

P.S. Haven't fried anything (else) yet. Following all precautions: wrist strap, no touchee stray leads that have been soldered to the emitters, power up / down while connected, etc.


Gettin a little gun shy?


Well, being extra cautious. Actually feel a bit more at ease thinking I understand what cooked the first batch of leds. :tin foil hat: Not looking forward to my credit card bill, but no choice...I had to retire the 400 HPS last night. Couldn't keep temps below 90. Stuck a 4 x 2' T5 HO in there meantime, but I know from experience that's not sufficient.


Since you are not going to get more than 45W. into 3 blue leds, the PLN60-15 will be just peachy. Got it. Of course, the original plan was to run 2 blues in each light. Probably should have ordered a PLN 100-15 instead, coulda run all 4 with it. . Might need to get another 60-15 to do this right. ;)

Rambling, need more coffee....

[DreadedHermie]

Had a thought before a drifted off this morning. Was wondering about how my timer (an Intermatic household cheapy) is going to react to the load of a Procyon and my 2 homemade 120W lights. Started thinking about splitting the lights up between 2 timers, but it's hard to keep 'em in synch.

Then it hit me. :fish: Start up the Blues and the Procyon (blue heavy) first, then 10-20 (whatever) minutes later the reds come on. At the end of the day cycle the plants would get that same interval of just red.

This would kinda mimic the changes atmospheric dust, etc. cause to the sun's spectrum every day --blue mornings, red evenings. Anyway, seemed like a good idea at the time. :stoned:

[Weezard]

"I've got a 60W 12V incandescent bulb I used to light a shed, powered by a rechargeable boat battery. When I hooked it up to check sag the Meanwell (I'm gonna write it like you and save keystrokes) stayed pretty tight. "

Incandescent are kind of self-limiting.
Hotter filament = higher resistance.
Just the opposite of emitter junctions which draw more current as they get hotter.
Thermal runaway happens fast too!

A 10 ohm 20W. resistor will draw 1.2A at 12V. and is linear, thus mo' betta for checking sag.
if you switch a 100 ohm resistor parallel to the 10 ohm you can have an almost instant 10% load change.

Tip:

Switch that Fluke to AC and hang it on the meanwell output while changing the load.
Should still read zero = (no change in DC level.)

A triggered 'scope will give you more detail than you need, but a simple AC meter on a DC source will sometimes find gremlins like ripple, spikes, oscillation or induced RF.
Has saved me much grief.

We now must pause for a pidgin moment.

"All kine sing get in dere.
Den LED get all buss' up"!:rastasmoke:

OK, now I'm over it.

Proper english grammar can be quite inefficient, ya?

Pidgin is a lazy guy's friend.:thumbsup:

If it's not clear at times, don't hesitate to ask what the hell I'm on about.:D

'loha
Haole boi

[Weezard]

Had a thought before a drifted off this morning. Was wondering about how my timer (an Intermatic household cheapy) is going to react to the load of a Procyon and my 2 homemade 120W lights. Started thinking about splitting the lights up between 2 timers, but it's hard to keep 'em in synch.

Then it hit me. :fish: Start up the Blues and the Procyon (blue heavy) first, then 10-20 (whatever) minutes later the reds come on. At the end of the day cycle the plants would get that same interval of just red.

Howzat again?!

This would kinda mimic the changes atmospheric dust, etc. cause to the sun's spectrum every day --blue mornings, red evenings. Anyway, seemed like a good idea at the time. :stoned:

I t'ink it's once in a blue noon an far red in the morning and evening, ya?:jointsmile:
Maybe dat's not an acorn.;)

Most timers are rated at 5 or 6 hundred watts non-inductive and should handle the whole shebang.

Are you using the same space for vegging and blooming?
I get more bud per buck by dividing the grow room and running the veg side 18/6 and the bloom side 12/12.

It was a snap to do using reflectix as the divider.
Here's some incentive for ya.
(See if we can ease the pain of that Credit card bill.)

[attachment=o214209]

[attachment=o214210]

[attachment=o214211]

Kinda fluffy.
The room temps hit 92 F. in the summer.
The winter buds are denser.
Dunno how big, yet.
I'll try to keep ya posted

[attachment=o214212]

Post mortem.
I need bigger net pots with bigger slots.
This gal quit the dance early 'cause her shoes were too tight.

[attachment=o214213]

These were raised dichroic.
Pre-CFL and pre-660nm.
Seems to be working.:dance:

Wish I had a procyon. for the seedlings though.
Thinking of buying one of those cheap, ($220. E-bay), UFO knock-offs for a separate cloning cabinet.

Yes, I has a soldering iron, but I'm bone lazy lately.

Waiting 'til yours is finished to use what we learn here in the design of my next "Bud-light".
The PFAA, (Photosynthesis facilitation and augmentation apparatus).
From Carmine cervical co-op corp.
You know, da Bubba Gro 2000.:D

Actually, I have no commercial intentions.
Just wanna build the best damn photon pump possible.
Anybody that has the notion and the ambition is welcome to run with whatever I come up with here.
What goes around comes around.
Copywrong 2009
All rights reversed.


Now,,
I'se havin' fun.
Aloha,
Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

I t'ink it's once in a blue noon an far red in the morning and evening, ya?
Guess yer right. Knew it changed. All at once is easy, so I'll do that.



Here's some incentive for ya.
Day-ummmm. Absolutely beautiful, Weeze. Alas, I only have access to bagseed genetics. Another reason to maximize performance, and a reason a grow log by me might not impress anybody enough to look at leds. Besides, we are talking about tomatoes, right? :thumbsup:


Are you using the same space for vegging and blooming?

Butt of coarse not! :D Got two side-by side closets with the bifold doors. 2' x 5', 7' + ceiling. The light trap venting knocks a tad off the floor footprint, but it's adequate to keep slices on my sandwiches...;) Veg in one (24/0 with t-8's and misc. CFL's for side fills. Ventilation pulls from the veg closet into the flower closet, through a carbon scrubber, and exhausts into the room. Gotta live with the heat, no way to get it outside; wouldn't help if I did....


A 10 ohm 20W. resistor will draw 1.2A at 12V. and is linear, thus mo' betta for checking sag.
if you switch a 100 ohm resistor parallel to the 10 ohm you can have an almost instant 10% load change.


Got a 25 ohm 50W "hot dog" round here somewhere; can set that up for 10 ohms. Got a 100 ohm built into a patch cable to discharge little caps. Prolly just half-watt though. Enough for this test?


If it's not clear at times, don't hesitate to ask what the hell I'm on about.

'loha
Haole boi

I'm getting the gist of it. Used to hang with a Norwegian girl who grew up on Guam when I was a lad (wistful smile crosses an old man's face :rolleyes:) Pretty sure "Howlee-boy" was not a term of endearment, though. ;)


Caution! You must be taller than Goofy to view the BP!

BP = blind Pig? Not getting this one. :i feel stupid:

[Weezard]

"BP = blind Pig? Not getting this one. http://boards.cannabis.com/images/smilies/custom3/i%20feel%20stupid.gif "

What? Too mixed a metaphor?

BP, Bud Porn.:)

"I'm getting the gist of it. Used to hang with a Norwegian girl who grew up on Guam when I was a lad (wistful smile crosses an old man's face :rolleyes:) Pretty sure "Howlee-boy" was not a term of endearment, though. ;)"

Can be!
There's the descriptive haole that just means "white guy"
Then there's the perjorative "F*kin' Howlee" that don't malama da aina!
I be da former.:hippy:
No got time fo' da latter.

"Besides, we are talking about tomatoes, right?"

Mais oui mon frere!
Greenpinelane dot com tomatoes at that.
Sorry for being obscure.
"It is my nature"

Da Weeze
He be haole, but he O K.

[DreadedHermie]

Switch that Fluke to AC and hang it on the meanwell output while changing the load.
Should still read zero = (no change in DC level.)



Well, it holds 12V DC real well. Adding the 100 ohm resistor jumps the AC reading from 142.8 mV to 152.8 mV. Seems to ramp up nice and smooth, though. Is this acceptable?

No other anomalies noted, but I probably wouldn't know 'em if I saw 'em. A hundredth of a volt seems okay.....

[DreadedHermie]

About time. Got 6 reds and 2 blues epoxied down and lighting up. :)

Here's the voltages they want in order to draw 1.2A each:

Reds
1 10.6
2 10.9 (10.6V gives 1.1A)
3 10.6
4 10.6
5 10.6
6 10.8 (10.6V gives 1.1A)

Blues
1 14.7
2 15.2 (14.7V gives 1.0A)


So, I can balance 'em out with resistors, or not. I can run all the reds
at 10.6 and have the 2 stiff ones running just a tad cooler @ 1.1A. :cool:

I can run 3 of the 10.6's together on the PLN 60-12, and get another 60-12 to drive the other 3 @ 10.8V, with a resistor to protect the lone 10.6V in that string. Or, if the 60-12 would handle it, I could run all 4 of the 10.6V reds together, but then I'm still looking for a driver for the 2 remaining reds. Not so sure "pushing" the 60-12 gets me anywhere in terms of matching the drivers up with the leds. Weezard, whatcha think? :confused:

For the blues, I can put a resistor on the 14.7V led and run 'em @ 15.1V. Since I may have overkill on the blues anyway, I could also just run at 14.7V and let the 15.1V blue cruise along a 1.0A. When I run the pair at 14.7V they look the same to me: too bright to look at. :smokin:

Back in a minute with resistor calcs. Don't tell me the answer! :detective1:

[Weezard]

About time. Got 6 reds and 2 blues epoxied down and lighting up. :)

Here's the voltages they want in order to draw 1.2A each:

Reds
1 10.6
2 10.9 (10.6V gives 1.1A)
3 10.6
4 10.6
5 10.6
6 10.8 (10.6V gives 1.1A)

Blues
1 14.7
2 15.2 (14.7V gives 1.0A)


So, I can balance 'em out with resistors, or not. I can run all the reds
at 10.6 and have the 2 stiff ones running just a tad cooler @ 1.1A. :cool:

Best, for heat and efficiency!

I can run 3 of the 10.6's together on the PLN 60-12, and get another 60-12 to drive the other 3 @ 10.8V, with a resistor to protect the lone 10.6V in that string. Or, if the 60-12 would handle it, I could run all 4 of the 10.6V reds together, but then I'm still looking for a driver for the 2 remaining reds. Not so sure "pushing" the 60-12 gets me anywhere in terms of matching the drivers up with the leds. Weezard, whatcha think? :confused:

Not worth the trouble.
Once you hit 1 amp you have a working light.
Hotter emitters yield less light.
1.1 amps will use 12 Watts.
You also have 152 mv. of ripple to deal with so I'd run them a little cool.

For the blues, I can put a resistor on the 14.7V led and run 'em @ 15.1V. Since I may have overkill on the blues anyway, I could also just run at 14.7V and let the 15.1V blue cruise along a 1.0A. When I run the pair at 14.7V they look the same to me: too bright to look at. :smokin:

That's right.
You have twice as much blue as you need.
And will prolly be dimming them anyway so I'd run 'em both at 14.7 to keep the heatsink :cool:.

Back in a minute with resistor calcs. Don't tell me the answer! :detective1:

Calc away. It's good practice.;)

Well done!
Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

E/I = R (rounding to 2 places cause of the tolerances)

So to drop:
.5 volt at 1.2A we need .5/1.2 = .42 ohm resistor
.4V...................................... .33
.3V..................................... .25
.2V..................................... .17

Radio shack's got .47 ohm, 5 watt resistors. And I've got some 1 ohm around here somewhere.

R1 x R2
--------- = R total
R1 + R2

so a .47 parallelled with a 1.0 gives .32 Ohm. Two .47's would give .235 ohm. Gotta get to Rat Sack before they close-- I can figure out how to combine them to get what I need by using THE LAW. :dance::clap::woohoo: Thanks Weezard!!!!

[DreadedHermie]

Weezard, thanks for the reply. Looks like the smart money's on not using any resistors, but would you confirm I'm plugging things into the equations correctly, just so I'm not misinforming anybody? Still wanta grab some .47's "just in case." :D

Have you checked out the UFO version 3 or whatever he's calling it at HTG? Supposedly he's having these made for him with good parts, and there's a baby version, too. I've done business with this guy before and was satisfied he's a straight shooter. (I would normally be sceptical of stories like this.) :wtf:

High Tech Garden Supply (http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=52466)

And, I saw your post on the UFO first grow thread. I would hate to jump in there and just seem critical but I'd like to see those plants in separate, small containers at this point. If he gets into drainage problems and/or gets his roots all commingled he won't do well; more food for the led sceptics.....:rolleyes:

[Neural]

FYI guys:

"The LZ4-00R215 is not a standard part for us. We built one run of LZ4-00R215 and shipped to Mouser based on market interest at the time. Since the initial launch and after additional marketing research, LedEngin decided to not officially release the LZ4-00R215.

There is no technical hurdle in building the LZ4-00R215. If your application offers us enough volume, we can produce the LZ4-00R215 product. Can you give me some details on you application and anticipate volume?"

[DreadedHermie]

Dang! I've killed so many of those things I feel personally responsible for pushing them to the brink of extinction. :( Looks like there's 38 left. The 10W deep reds are more expensive....:wtf:

[Weezard]

Weezard, thanks for the reply. Looks like the smart money's on not using any resistors, but would you confirm I'm plugging things into the equations correctly, just so I'm not misinforming anybody? Still wanta grab some .47's "just in case." :D

Spot on!:thumbsup:

Have you checked out the UFO version 3 or whatever he's calling it at HTG? Supposedly he's having these made for him with good parts, and there's a baby version, too. I've done business with this guy before and was satisfied he's a straight shooter. (I would normally be sceptical of stories like this.) :wtf:

I know what ya mean. It sounds like hype. But I've talked to Ryan and he seems sincere. Still use one of his 14W kits for clones.
On the other hand, he's tacking on over $100 in profit. There is a price difference for the right leds, but...

High Tech Garden Supply (http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=52466)

And, I saw your post on the UFO first grow thread. I would hate to jump in there and just seem critical but I'd like to see those plants in separate, small containers at this point. If he gets into drainage problems and/or gets his roots all commingled he won't do well; more food for the led sceptics.....:rolleyes:

All ya can do is wait for him to read Stinky's stickies.
He didn't ask for growing advice, so I didn't offer any.
Some guys only learn the hard way.;)
He's smart enough to try leds for himself.
He'll figure out the grow part on his own or ask for help.
I quit "educating" people on my own initiative a while back.

Some swine will poo on your pearls.:wtf::D

Got a local grower that I tried to turn on to leds.
He practically snapped my head off.
Informed me, rudely that leds were a scam.
I just grinned and said you are probably right.
Now I only offer advice
to folks what asks nice.:)

Well, somebodiy's gotta support Hawaiian Electric company, ya?:D

Onward
Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

at least not the Ryan from Home Grown Lights.


But I've talked to Ryan and he seems sincere

This is an online hydro retailer--a big one. (HTG / HGL...cornfusing) Ryan's been MIA for awhile--no updates to the website, can't order anything...if I coulda bought a 50W kit of his (3 reds / 1 blue) I wouldn't have been pushed to DIY. Glad I did it, though. :thumbsup:


He didn't ask for growing advice, so I didn't offer any.


Too late. :D I figgered if it was me, I'd want somebody to at least offer. I won't be offended if he blows me off, I just didn't want to offend him with unsolicited "suggestions." Tried do do it Socratic-like, which is not so different than the "Weezard way" when ya think about it. ("Think about it" being the operative phrase here.) ;)

Will have light tonight so I can do thermal checks. This heatsink ROCKS. :yippee:

[Weezard]

at least not the Ryan from Home Grown Lights.



This is an online hydro retailer--a big one. (HTG / HGL...cornfusing) Ryan's been MIA for awhile--no updates to the website, can't order anything...if I coulda bought a 50W kit of his (3 reds / 1 blue) I wouldn't have been pushed to DIY. Glad I did it, though. :thumbsup:

Yup got cornfused alright.
Didn't sound like the kind of thing Ryan would do.
In that case, It's hype.:(
There are several new UFO rips. some of them use 10mm. low power leds and a shiny cardboard reflector.
Re-packaged "china panels" basically.
The "good" knock offs run about $220.

Too late. :D I figgered if it was me, I'd want somebody to at least offer. I won't be offended if he blows me off, I just didn't want to offend him with unsolicited "suggestions." Tried do do it Socratic-like, which is not so different than the "Weezard way" when ya think about it. ("Think about it" being the operative phrase here.) ;)

:D:D:D

Will have light tonight so I can do thermal checks. This heatsink ROCKS. :yippee:

Might not need the fans!?
That would be sweet!

I actually own one of those snazzy tempguns.
great for reading leaf and res. temps.
But, when testing leds, I just "give 'em da finger".
Fast and sure. Saves the eyes too.:cool:

Those blue leds are a danger.
Human pupils don't contract like they do with white light, and the narrow bandwidth allows tight focus on the retina, even from the side.
I had "barneys" for two week from my first Hipower blue leds.
Went to the eye guy and he told me "don't do dat"!:)

"Turned me into a newt":smokin:
"I got better":D

Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

Human pupils don't contract Dang these human pupils! :D(Thanks for the warning, I remember your other one.)

Weezard, ready to connect 2 blues to the 60-15. I have it dialed in to 14.78V with no load (except the meter). I don't need to set it running into a resistive load or anything, do I? CV should find a way, right? (I've got the current all the way up.)


I've been running 13. 5 Watt leds from my Mastech for months with the supply on a timer.
Keep it set at 12.6V 3.4A.


Wanted to ask about this, too. Do you have it set at 12.6V and current all the way up (the array draws what it can @ that voltage) OR do you also have the current knob turned down so the PS can't exceed that current? Thanks! Hermie

[Weezard]

Dang these human pupils! :D(Thanks for the warning, I remember your other one.)

Weezard, ready to connect 2 blues to the 60-15. I have it dialed in to 14.78V with no load (except the meter). I don't need to set it running into a resistive load or anything, do I? CV should find a way, right? (I've got the current all the way up.)

Leds are current devices.
Use the constant current setting and the voltage will take care of itself


Wanted to ask about this, too. Do you have it set at 12.6V and current all the way up (the array draws what it can @ that voltage) OR do you also have the current knob turned down so the PS can't exceed that current? Thanks! Hermie

Current locked at 3.4 A. the voltage is set to just below the theoretical maximum for my array. Long toed 15 volts. but it only requires 12.6V. to push 3.4 amps.
Remember this is a constant current supply.

[DreadedHermie]

Weezard, I got sidetracked there for awhile. I decided to test my test leads, which are like 25 years old and not as heavy as they should be to do this kind of work. One of them had become intermittent inside the banana plug, and went completely and permanently open as I was examining it.

This sucker has been coming and going for a long time. I was thrown a red herring with the display on the Fluke. (You don't think a goof like me would normally have a prize like an 87, do ya? :D) The display was going out and the guy didn't want to be bothered with fixing it so I took it off his hands cheap. ;) When I finally got around to replacing the display I'd noticed some erratic readings but figured I had just been misreading the display (not all the segments were working).

So I've been zapping the leds with an intermittent connection. Plus rudely starting and stopping them. Feel kinda silly, but who tests a test lead? :wtf:

Onward.

I have the 4 reds @ 10.6V wired to the mastech. I'll run the others with the 60-12 at ~ 10.8V. Getting close, can't wait to see how this sink does.

[Weezard]

Weezard, I got sidetracked there for awhile. I decided to test my test leads, which are like 25 years old and not as heavy as they should be to do this kind of work. One of them had become intermittent inside the banana plug, and went completely and permanently open as I was examining it.

This sucker has been coming and going for a long time. I was thrown a red herring with the display on the Fluke. (You don't think a goof like me would normally have a prize like an 87, do ya? :D) The display was going out and the guy didn't want to be bothered with fixing it so I took it off his hands cheap. ;) When I finally got around to replacing the display I'd noticed some erratic readings but figured I had just been misreading the display (not all the segments were working).

So I've been zapping the leds with an intermittent connection. Plus rudely starting and stopping them. Feel kinda silly, but who tests a test lead? :wtf:

Funny you should ask that.
Me, that's who.
Had a similar problem with my Fluke.
Had to buy new leads to finish my light.

Onward.

I have the 4 reds @ 10.6V wired to the mastech. I'll run the others with the 60-12 at ~ 10.8V. Getting close, can't wait to see how this sink does.

Just placed an order for 10 deep red 15W. Ledengins.
Ya got me goin' again.
Did you ever find a source for lenses?

Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

Fired up all the lights, no fans. Passive cooling only. Within half an hour the temp of the sink, measured behind an LED, was pushing 120 deg F., so I connected the fans. (These are Zalman ZM-F2, which are 2500 RPM @ 12V. Pretty quiet, just $5 each.) I've got 'em wired to a 9V wall wart, so they're really just loafing.

I watched the temperature drop back down to ~100 deg F. in 10-15 seconds. It was like you dipped the thermometer in cool water. :thumbsup:
[attachment=o214262]

Right now I've got just one fan running. They're kinda mounted diagonally, and I've got the thermometer as far away from the fan as possible, and right behind an LED--a worst-case scenario. Temp's are holding right at 100 deg F. with just the one fan running @ 9V. :D [attachment=o214263]

Probably the way to do this is wire the second fan to a thermal switch on a separate power supply as a backup.

[attachment=o214264]

[Weezard]

Dang! I've killed so many of those things I feel personally responsible for pushing them to the brink of extinction. :( Looks like there's 38 left. The 10W deep reds are more expensive....:wtf:

And you'd have to drive them at their abs max to get the same 2.5Watt output that the 15W. get while cruising at 1 amp.
Scored 10 of da buggahs for $290.
Ouch!
Now I eat catfood for a week. ;)

Toodles
Weeze

[Weezard]

:jumphappy:
Now that, is a thing of beauty, son.:cool::cool::cool:

I'll wager that it beats a Procyon.


See ya tomorrow.

Weezard be proud of the dang human pupil.:jointsmile:

[DreadedHermie]

Both of the Meanwell's are quite warm, with only 2 leds on each one. I may mount them on the wall outside the flower room with the case open like this and put a small fan on them, blowing on these metal guard plates (which are probably heatsinks, too). Weezard, do you think that's worth the effort (not much effort, really) or is it possible the plastic case is designed to dissipate heat???
[attachment=o214265]


Did you ever find a source for lenses?


Nope. My space is so small, the white walls are reflecting things around nicely, and the light's going where it should so I don't think I'll need 'em. I'll keep my eye out for 'em for you, though.

[Weezard]

Both of the Meanwell's are quite warm, with only 2 leds on each one. I may mount them on the wall outside the flower room with the case open like this and put a small fan on them, blowing on these metal guard plates (which are probably heatsinks, too). Weezard, do you think that's worth the effort (not much effort, really) or is it possible the plastic case is designed to dissipate heat???
[attachment=o214265]

I'd meter those sinks for a voltage difference.
If they are isolated or grounded, I'd stick a cpu fan on 'em and keep them out of the grow room.
Got my drivers in the room, but they are inches from an exhaust fan.:cool:

Nope. My space is so small, the white walls are reflecting things around nicely, and the light's going where it should so I don't think I'll need 'em. I'll keep my eye out for 'em for you, though.

Mahalo!
I'll see if I can hunt some down for a side by side test.
My good meter, (CT1330B), reads LUX but will let me compare lensed and unlensed light intensity at 12" etc.

My eye-nose-n-lung meter reads Dankness units,:D
Weeze

[Neural]

Scored 10 of da buggahs for $290.
Ouch!
Now I eat catfood for a week. ;)

Toodles
Weeze

Do I smell a project in the works?? :)

Hermie- that's a nice light you got there it's making me excited to get my project done. That's one enormous heat sink too.

My bench power supply should be coming tomorrow and I have the ear of a electrical engineer so that should offset most of my newbness.

[DreadedHermie]

And you'd have to drive them at their abs max to get the same 2.5Watt output that the 15W. get while cruising at 1 amp.


Weezard, is this a typo? You could get 12.5W @ 1A if you pushed with 12.5V.


I'd meter those sinks for a voltage difference.


Like a difference in voltage potential between two drivers that are operating? Would you set the meter to VDC and probe the sinks on the 2 drivers? Not sure what you mean here.


If they are isolated or grounded, I'd stick a cpu fan on 'em and keep them out of the grow room.


Measuring here for continuity between the ground pin on the supply cable and the sink? Checking for any leakage / continuity between input and outputs? Sorry, I'm not sure what you're investigating here. :detective1:(Remember, I have electrocuted so many leds that the replacement ones all have the governor's office on speed-dial!:wtf:)

Directions for Hermie:
1. Set meter to range __________
2. Place probes here ___________ and here __________ :D

[Weezard]

Weezard, is this a typo? You could get 12.5W @ 1A if you pushed with 12.5V.

Nope, I was refering to the actual light output as listed in the chart on the ledengin site.
For some arcane reason, they measure output of UV and deep red in Watts rather than lumens.

Like a difference in voltage potential between two drivers that are operating? Would you set the meter to VDC and probe the sinks on the 2 drivers? Not sure what you mean here.



Measuring here for continuity between the ground pin on the supply cable and the sink? Checking for any leakage / continuity between input and outputs? Sorry, I'm not sure what you're investigating here. :detective1:(Remember, I have electrocuted so many leds that the replacement ones all have the governor's office on speed-dial!:wtf:)

Directions for Hermie:
1. Set meter to range __________
2. Place probes here ___________ and here __________ :D

Stop, yer kiliin' me. :D

With the supply off and unplugged, check resistance between both/each heatsink and both ouput pins, in both directions.
Then, fire it up and check for dc/ac voltage between both the sinks
(Can't imagine they'd use two seperate sinks without a good reason).
If you find anything at all. use an insulator between the sinks and your CPU fan is all I'm sayin'.

Mo' betta?
Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

Even with all the power supplies in the little flower closet I only need to run the exhaust fan for a few minutes every half-hour or so. :thumbsup:

Some figures, for those that like 'em:

I multiplied actual drive current x voltage for the individual leds to figure watts consumed by JUST the leds. I unplugged each driver/led combo and noted the decrease in watts drawn on my "kill-a-watt" device to determine total watts consumed by the system.

2 red leds only............. 25W
w/ PLN 60-12...............32W

2 blue leds only............ 34W
w/ PLN 60-12............... 39W

4 red leds only............. 48W
w/ Mastech 30-10........ 69W

Total "led lighting watts" = 107W (89% of rated abs max)
Total power consumption = 140W

I think pushing the drivers a tad harder will increase the efficiency a bit. The Mastech's just idling--it's cool, and the fan never comes on. I love this thing! Same price as a Meanwell 150W driver. Maybe I'll get another one and drive my 12 reds with 2 Mastechs. Have to see how close Vf is on the next batch to plan for proper drivers. Just using 3-4 leds per driver might be good insurance, tho... :cool:

Weezard, I've got the light about 9" above the plant tops. Does that sound about right, or can it be closer? (I have the Procyon about 12" up.) Seems like I remember you mentioning 3" but can't remember the discussion....:stoned:

[DreadedHermie]

(Can't imagine they'd use two seperate sinks without a good reason).


They looked like steel, if that tells you anything. They are positioned so Hermie couldn't get his fat fingers in there to get poked, so they are functional in that regard. :thumbsup: (Where's my butter knife?? I'll find some life in there!):D

[DreadedHermie]

Weezard, what's up? Been super busy, I just hung the 6+2 led light in place of the 400 HPS and got back to real world issues for awhile. Everything looks good. Severe heat stress definitely improved. Plants seemed happy right off the bat; transpiration hassles diminished, too. Plants do NOT seem to be pining for any missing frequencies or intensity.

Been tinkering with the blue ratio, hard to figure anything out in a hurry. Have to wait for the plants to tell me what they like. At first, I just ran all the leds at 1.2 A. But now I've got the blue driver turned all the way down. (13.16V) Haven't checked the current draw at that voltage but it can't be much. The driver for the blues is cooler than the PLN 60-12 which is driving only 2 reds at 10.85V. Not sure I need 2 blues for the next light, at least not this month! (Already have the reds.) Might wanna do a side-by-side with 1 blue vs. 2 blues. Ideal probably varies according to development stage of the plant.

"My mistake" on the heatsink / shield things. They are not impressed with my neodymium magnet, so maybe they are anodized aluminum. Being new at this I just have a hard time viewing those things as heatsinks when they're sealed up in that plastic housing. Seems terribly ineffective.



With the supply off and unplugged, check resistance between both/each heatsink and both ouput pins, in both directions.

Totally open. Nuttin'.

Then, fire it up and check for dc/ac voltage between both the sinks

Pay dirt. Measured 200mV DC and 1.0V AC between the two sinks on one of the drivers (Don't remember which...)

Thanks again for all of your help, encouragement, and kind words. I do intend to do a build log and show how to put together a plug-n-play like this. These prefab drivers are pricey, but folks with heat issues will find it worthwhile, and simple to do. I'll start a log in this forum or the "grow log" section if that seems more appropriate. I'll build the light and photograph the steps within a week or 2, but it may be a while before I can begin the tutorial.

Also want to retest the leds for Vf after 25 days of 12 / 12 which is 300 hours of operation. I read somewhere the leds may burn-in during this period and I wanna check it for myself--see if I've grown a sub-10.6Vf "current hog."

Regards, Hermie

[Weezard]

Weezard, what's up?

Just disposed of all my sugarleaf.
A buddy, a few beers, his schwag, my schwag, (tomato, of course), :);)
Some buckets, some ice, a sunset.
There are many ways to be busy.:D


Been super busy, I just hung the 6+2 led light in place of the 400 HPS and got back to real world issues for awhile. Everything looks good. Severe heat stress definitely improved. Plants seemed happy right off the bat; transpiration hassles diminished, too. Plants do NOT seem to be pining for any missing frequencies or intensity.

Been tinkering with the blue ratio, hard to figure anything out in a hurry. Have to wait for the plants to tell me what they like. At first, I just ran all the leds at 1.2 A. But now I've got the blue driver turned all the way down. (13.16V) Haven't checked the current draw at that voltage but it can't be much. The driver for the blues is cooler than the PLN 60-12 which is driving only 2 reds at 10.85V. Not sure I need 2 blues for the next light, at least not this month! (Already have the reds.) Might wanna do a side-by-side with 1 blue vs. 2 blues. Ideal probably varies according to development stage of the plant.

"My mistake" on the heatsink / shield things. They are not impressed with my neodymium magnet, so maybe they are anodized aluminum.

Good bet!

Being new at this I just have a hard time viewing those things as heatsinks when they're sealed up in that plastic housing. Seems terribly ineffective.

Actually, they are just that. HeatSINKS. rather than heat pumps or pipes, etc.
It is effective in adding "beef" to a PN junction that would go poof without it. but, is ineffficient in dumping that heat elsewhere.


Thanks again for all of your help, encouragement, and kind words. I do intend to do a build log and show how to put together a plug-n-play like this. These prefab drivers are pricey, but folks with heat issues will find it worthwhile, and simple to do. I'll start a log in this forum or the "grow log" section if that seems more appropriate. I'll build the light and photograph the steps within a week or 2, but it may be a while before I can begin the tutorial.

This has been a rare pleasure.
Your humor is much appreciated.
The wife says you are a "hoot".

I like your style. And we are both "richer" for this.

Though, I'm not quite done with this thread.
Still not sure what to do with this last order of 10 LEDs.
I free'd up my variable PS and will be testing for Vf. tomorrow.
Do you think I should start a new DIY thread or just continue to thrash about in yours?

Also want to retest the leds for Vf after 25 days of 12 / 12 which is 300 hours of operation. I read somewhere the leds may burn-in during this period and I wanna check it for myself--see if I've grown a sub-10.6Vf "current hog."

Good idea, I believe that was from greenpinlane

Regards, Hermie

Please excuse brainfarts and scatterings
li'l 'zard be bubbled tonight.:stoned:

ciao
Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

A trainer friend sent me this. It's actually an ad for Samsung led TV's.


YouTube - Extreme Sheep LED Art (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw&eurl=http)

[Neural]

A trainer friend sent me this. It's actually an ad for Samsung led TV's.


YouTube - Extreme Sheep LED Art (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw&eurl=http)

Haha, amazing link. Starting to think how I can integrate sheep into my grow light project.

[Weezard]

Leds Still Do.;)

Stalled again.
Waiting for parcels and parts.
Got choke horses.
Hardly any carts.

<Sigh>

Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

You are homebrewing a switch mode PS for a driver, and have the inductors, but little else?

[Weezard]

Close enough. :D
In pidgin, "choke" means too much.
I'm sure you caught the initial joke.;)
And the rest...?

Just sayin' that, once again, I'm out of sequence.
First things last and V. V.
Should have bit the bullet and bought your kine heatsinks first.
Been hunting for another thick alumunum turkey pan to no avail.
Have not even ordered any meanwells or blue leds.
Looking for my round tuit to measure Vf on the red leds.
Seems like my Let's Smoke Dope alarm goes off a little earlier every day.

Ah well. it's self limiting.
My bag has a bottom.:(

Guess I'd better go do some less important stuff for a while.

Loved the Baaa studs video, thanks.:cool:

Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

Been hunting for another thick alumunum turkey pan to no avail.


If "round" ain't a deal-breaker (think UFO) I found some pre-teflon era aluminum skillets / fry pans at thrift shops and garage sales. THICK! Buy 'em for fiddy cent.

Failing that: the eBay heatsink guy ships quick and cheap. 8.5" by whatever length you want. Cuts are free, too. I was originally going to build "photon torpedoes" of single-file leds on a half-width heatsink, but decided to just build dedicated lights to work in my space, rather than build an all-purpose, slide-it-in-anywhere kinda supplemental light. (This thing is kicking butt, BTW-replaced the 400 HPS no problem. :smokin:)

Anyway, rep me an addy and desired dimensions and I'll gift you one, if it'd brighten your day. :thumbsup: Gotta go! Still busy! (It's a good thing, tho) :D

[Weezard]

If "round" ain't a deal-breaker (think UFO) I found some pre-teflon era aluminum skillets / fry pans at thrift shops and garage sales. THICK! Buy 'em for fiddy cent.

Failing that: the eBay heatsink guy ships quick and cheap. 8.5" by whatever length you want. Cuts are free, too. I was originally going to build "photon torpedoes" of single-file leds on a half-width heatsink, but decided to just build dedicated lights to work in my space, rather than build an all-purpose, slide-it-in-anywhere kinda supplemental light. (This thing is kicking butt, BTW-replaced the 400 HPS no problem. :smokin:)

Anyway, rep me an addy and desired dimensions and I'll gift you one, if it'd brighten your day. :thumbsup: Gotta go! Still busy! (It's a good thing, tho) :D

"Must spread some reputation around before...":D

Found an affordable 10" X 10" 'sink.:thumbsup:

But thanks big for the offer.:1baa:

Also found a 12V. 21A. supply and a couple 12V. 8A. dimmers dirt cheap.

Leds tested well.
Got 5 that eat 1.2A @ 10.5V.
4 @ 10.4V and 1 @ 10.3V.

Found 60 degree lenses for the 15W. , (perfect for my bloomin' space), and 90 degree lenses for the 5W. arrays that will now be veg lights.
Whymy actually buying stuff?
Hadda windfall, sold 4 tubes of ICs for $500.
So, 10 X 10, I'm thinkin' 10R and 2B.

* * * *
* * * *
* * * *

Mundane, but effective.

Yay! :yippee:
Mailman just brought the UFO knockoff.
Allaway from Hong Kong.
Hmmm.
Nice!
At 12" I get 8k lux.
Just a tad less than my cakepan with 5 15W leds. (8.4k)
Just 500 lux more than my lensed 5W. array but @625nm. vs 660nm. for both my lights, so it's very relative.
My 10mm 300 led homebrew reads 3.5k
Best I can get out of the HGL 5mm kit is 3k.

First eyeball impression of the faux UFO?
Very bright!
First earball impression?
A bit louder than I had hoped.:(
Lets give it a week and see what the girls think.
For $200 bucks it's affordable.
For the price of a Procyon, you can hang 2 UFOs and still have some lunch money left.:D
Now we should see some real competition from the grow light mfgrs.:cool:

OK I give up trying to make the diagram size properly. :stoned:

Regards,
Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

21 Amps !??!
10 + 2 !?!!!!

Hold yer horses, there, Nikita--I didn't think things were gonna escalate this quickly! And put yer shoe back on! :D I have everything I need to stay in this race: Thermal epoxy, room on the heatsink, and my (ouch) credit card! Just no time to "play" for 3-4 more weeks.

Supposed to be retired, but some projects came up that were too good to pass up. Gotta make hay while the iron hot, ya?

To respond to some things that went whizzing by during the last few days:

Some buckets, some ice, a sunset.
There are many ways to be busy.



Sounds grand. Folks complain about the drudgery of ice and buckets, but I love to cook, and that's how makin' bubbles seems to me. Like doing a big vat of demi-glace. You need to be "not-in-a-hurry" and appreciate the journey. I so look forward to relaxing a bit, and doing something nice with some leisurely prep. Coc au Vin, maybe Oxtail Stew. :thumbsup:


Actually, they are just that. HeatSINKS. rather than heat pumps or pipes, etc.
It is effective in adding "beef" to a PN junction that would go poof without it. but, is inefficient in dumping that heat elsewhere.

Well, I am a noob at heatsinks. These finned sinks I got just about made me wet myself, though, and that's dangerous around electricity. :D One led on a corner of the sink heats it up evenly, all the way to the opposite corner. It never seems warmer near the leds--the heat just flows away evenly, and a fan placed anywhere on the fins (even on a corner) evenly cools the whole sink. If I aimed a circulation fan so it just "grazed" the light that'd probably be sufficient cooling. (At least, for a puny 6 + 2 ;))

It's just that this term "sink" seems misleading to me. A true heatsink would just get hotter and hotter until...well, it just seems like they are all heat radiators of widely varying form and efficiency. Sealing the "sinks" inside the Meanwells just seems wrong, unless the case (polymer?) is designed to help transfer heat from the sinks to the ambient air. Actually, that was a question: would the meanwells be happier with the case open? (Let me know if you ever get one of 'em so you can help me use it right!)


Do you think I should start a new DIY thread or just continue to thrash about in yours?



Weezard, please do what you think will best serve the greater good. It's an honor to have you here. This thread has lotsa views, and I think your name in the title is why. (If I'd have called it "I am a dumb-ass and am trying to homebrew an led light" I doubt there'd be much interest. :wtf:)

I was (am) planning to do a separate thread for my build log. No sense dragging innocents through my carnage unneccessarily. Was thinking of a title like: "Build a hi-power led growlight--difficulty level age 12 and up." (Plug-and-play drivers, fo' sho')

So, whatever. Multiple threads about led builds may pique some interest, if that matters for anything. And Weezard is box-office gold. The Brad Pitt of CannCom, sorta:

"Weezard, please be in my thread!"
"We're sorry, Weezard's agent has him booked in multiple techy threads plus a guest appearance at a Star Trek convention. Check back next year for availability." :D :D :D

Whoops, gotta run. To be continued..... Hermie

[MdmPele]

I love this thread and I've not even finished page 1!

interested in LED's for life these days.

moving to Hilo (from Portland OR) May and electricity is more than 2x here. which got me interested in LEDs in the first place

I like the cake pan lamp

anyway -- I'll be doing a bunch of reading here.

Now, on the 2-3 week extra finish time, has anyone here tried reptile UVB CFL bulbs to aument the light spectrum?

I've been flowering under 436w t-5 in red with 3 UVB cfl's. The change when I first added them was nothing short of fascinating/miraculous!

It enhances the trichome production.

ok, back to reading :cool:

[DreadedHermie]

In pidgin, "choke" means too much.


I am lolo. Derrr....


I'm sure you caught the initial joke.

"Lost Sheep Dream of electric Bo-Peep.
Leds Still Do."



That seemed straightforward enough. However, I googled "Electric Bo Peep" to see if I was missing something obvious and learned:
[attachment=o215078]

Now that's obvious. :D

[Weezard]

I love this thread and I've not even finished page 1!

interested in LED's for life these days.

moving to Hilo (from Portland OR) May and electricity is more than 2x here. which got me interested in LEDs in the first place

I like the cake pan lamp

anyway -- I'll be doing a bunch of reading here.

Now, on the 2-3 week extra finish time, has anyone here tried reptile UVB CFL bulbs to aument the light spectrum?

Did read that someone tried them.
No dramatic result.
Also not a double blind study,so...

So, try 'em if ya gottem and let us know.:cool:

Close as I have to personal UVb info?
Got an array that I bought on E.
It has a mix of red, blue, violet, UVb, and IR. on it.
irradiated one side of a WW all through bloom.
Then dried buds from that side and the opposite side.
Cured 'em, tried 'em.
Objectively, no weight difference, no size difference
Subjectively, no effect difference.
Not what you'd call a definitive test, ya?.:hippy:
I'm not organized enough to do it right.

And, I'm results oriented, so, I just hung a large CFL for any missed light frequency and invited the girls to he'p themselves.

I've been flowering under 436w t-5 in red with 3 UVB cfl's. The change when I first added them was nothing short of fascinating/miraculous!

Did you add them after the "stretch" or at the beginning of flower?
Did you have some non-UVb siblings for a comparison?

It enhances the trichome production.

ok, back to reading :cool:

Not claiming to have a lock on the most efficient growlight.
Just thrashing about and getting acceptable results for 1/10th the energy of HPS.
Pretty happy with the current setup.

Building a more powerful version to see if it speeds production or adds bud mass. :weedpoke:


I'll have dimmers on this one.
Will run them at full power for a full bloom cycle.
IF, (and that's a big if), I can save 2 weeks and get bigger buds with twice the energy cost, it's all good.
Then, I'll "do the math" to see if it's cost effective in Watts per ounce.
If not, I'll turn 'em down to the minimum energy consumption for my present yield and be patient. ;)

If you decide to use 15W. ledengin 660nm. leds, be aware that Mouser only has 26 left as of yesterday.
Seems they were an experimental, limited run and Ledengin is not presently shipping them.:(

Anyroad, welcome to da Beeg Guy's Land.

Aloha nui loa,
Weezard

[Weezard]

Wow, DH!

You flatter me!
Not that I didn't enjoy it, just sayin I noticed.:1baa:
Mahalo nui!

Avatar. Little boy. Arms race. Shoe banger,
"We will bury you".:S2:
'Snot like dat, brah.:hippy:


Actually, I was afraid someone would snatch up the last 38 660s.
And I only need about 15 amps, but the headroom will make for a long and happy life for the base P.S..
Need 10.5V. for 1.2A.
Got 12V. , so, dimmers.
The 8amp dimmers are $16 ea. w/shipping.:cool::cool::cool:
Got the 10"X10"X1.5" 'sink for a song on E.
<sings> How much is dat froggy inuendo?
Twenny dollah n change.
Dat should wash all da "crunchy" from dem pants, Ya?
I'll send ya some 'sink porn when it arrives.;)

'bout dem Meanwells. I'd leave the case off dem pups.
Regardless of the heat conduction afforded by the plastic.
Even it it was a good conductor, it's still one more layer between them and the air. It's all about how fast one moves the heat away.
An ideal 'sink is infinite in it's capacity. Or so massive that it may as well be infinite. These li'l pups are far from ideal, so we need to hand off the heat to the air and keep that air moving, so, fins an' fans.:twocents:

"I was (am) planning to do a separate thread for my build log. No sense dragging innocents through my carnage unneccessarily."

There, I disagree.
The "frying of the light" may be the most useful part of this thread. Could save folks a lot of grief.
I'm leaving my errors as a warning to always get a second opinion, 'cause no lizard is perfect, and some of us are highly medicated most of the time.:stoned:
And, you handled it with such grace and humor that it is instructive as well as entertaining.
"Drag 'em Dan-o."

""Weezard, please be in my thread!"
Done!
Mahalo fo' de invite!

Dr. Weezard-o

[MdmPele]

Not claiming to have a lock on the most efficient growlight.
Just thrashing about and getting acceptable results for 1/10th the energy of HPS.
Pretty happy with the current setup.

Building a more powerful version to see if it speeds production or adds bud mass. :weedpoke:


I'll have dimmers on this one.
Will run them at full power for a full bloom cycle.
IF, (and that's a big if), I can save 2 weeks and get bigger buds with twice the energy cost, it's all good.
Then, I'll "do the math" to see if it's cost effective in Watts per ounce.
If not, I'll turn 'em down to the minimum energy consumption for my present yield and be patient. ;)

If you decide to use 15W. ledengin 660nm. leds, be aware that Mouser only has 26 left as of yesterday.
Seems they were an experimental, limited run and Ledengin is not presently shipping them.:(

Anyroad, welcome to da Beeg Guy's Land.

Aloha nui loa,
Weezard


Mahalo for the welcome. What island you on?

If the UB on your light was an LED, then you only had UVA. They have not produced any higher UV led's yet (as of my last internet research in about september 2008)

UVB is the color that tickles the trichomes as I understand. It sure did/does in my all-flouro flower room. 26w cfl with 5-10% UVB will also put out about 30% UVA... very little UVC, the purifier color range. (thankfully I wear transitions glasses)

I aske because (someone) mentioned adding 45w cfl for the added spectrum.

[Weezard]

I am lolo. Derrr....



That seemed straightforward enough. However, I googled "Electric Bo Peep" to see if I was missing something obvious and learned:
[attachment=o215078]

Now that's obvious. :D

"Do androids dream of electric sheep"?*
Do dey count dem 'til dey fall asleep?

Oh hell no!

Once dey spy dat fine Bo-peep.
Dey head fo' bed,
but dey no sleep.:D

Mahalo fo' da eye candy, brah!

*(Original story, Philip K. Dick.
Basis for the movie, Blade Runner.)

[Weezard]

Mahalo for the welcome. What island you on?

If the UB on your light was an LED, then you only had UVA. They have not produced any higher UV led's yet (as of my last internet research in about september 2008)

UVB is the color that tickles the trichomes as I understand. It sure did/does in my all-flouro flower room. 26w cfl with 5-10% UVB will also put out about 30% UVA... very little UVC, the purifier color range. (thankfully I wear transitions glasses)

I aske because (someone) mentioned adding 45w cfl for the added spectrum.

That would be me.
I hung a 45W. CFL in the bloom room, but did not see enough difference in yield to measure.
So, took it back out and now use it to start seedlings.

You are correct those leds are just barely UVa.
Don't have a "curve on 'em but was kinda hopin' that the "skirt" would be wide enough to provide some shorter wavelength UV. Already had a CFL for the short UV
No matter. no discernable difference.

Now, about my questions...
"Did you add them after the "stretch" or at the beginning of flower?
Did you have some non-UVb siblings for a comparison?"

LEDs are great for producing choke trichomes,
Got good bud from red and blue alone, so now, I'm increasing the intensity of the dichroic light:weedpoke: just to see what happens yieldwise.

"What island you on? "

Um,
"welcome to da Beeg Guy's Land"

Kona side.

Aloha,
Beeg Guy

[DreadedHermie]

Okay, I can relate to drunken Welsh poets: Rage, rage against the dying of 'dem $31 lights (or, if purchased in quantities suitable for genocide, $29). WTF, now I know. (Wait'll Pele gets to the part where I smoke my lunch money! There should be a parental advisory on that episode. Reminds me of the old "Ever see a grown man cry?" magazine ads featuring a bottle of fine Scotch whisky breaking on the pavement.)


Got 12V. , so, dimmers.
The 8amp dimmers are $16 ea. w/shipping.

What kinda dimmers these? What kinda current regs? (Gonna explain in yer build log?)
Also curious about the lenses. I've got my light maybe 9" above plant tops. Could be lower but the light distribution looks real good jes' like that :thumbsup: (but my space is small). If you're lensing the leds you must have your lamp further away. Just trying to figger if I'm missing out on something here....:detective1:


"Do androids dream of electric sheep"?*
Basis for the movie, Blade Runner.)


AHA! I think that's credited, maybe at the beginning of the movie. A google search of "electric sheep" looked like it was leading me into some PtP sites I didn't quite trust. Then, I got distracted...:D What a beautifully cast flick, though. Maybe a Brion James avatar for awhile...

P.S. Got so tired last night I conked out, woke up and worked some more, then conked out again :stoned: (5 am) and didn't wake up till noon. Unfortunately, I left the flap on the flower closet open so there was 5 extra hours of (low-level) light disturbing my girls. :mad: Now, I must watch for "the dreaded hermie." How redundant. However, I remain optimistic. :thumbsup:

[Weezard]

Okay, I can relate to drunken Welsh poets: Rage, rage against the dying of 'dem $31 lights (or, if purchased in quantities suitable for genocide, $29). WTF, now I know. (Wait'll Pele gets to the part where I smoke my lunch money! There should be a parental advisory on that episode. Reminds me of the old "Ever see a grown man cry?" magazine ads featuring a bottle of fine Scotch whisky breaking on the pavement.)



What kinda dimmers these? What kinda current regs? (Gonna explain in yer build log?)

Soitenly!

But here's da skinny;
Not a current reg.
But, if I resistor limit the max. I can start at full on and turn it down to suit my targets.


eBay Store - led-world2007:: DC 12V 8A LED Dimmer adjustable brightness controller (http://stores.ebay.com/led-world2007_W0QQfrsrcZ1QQfsubZ1QQtZkm)

Also curious about the lenses. I've got my light maybe 9" above plant tops. Could be lower but the light distribution looks real good jes' like that :thumbsup: (but my space is small). If you're lensing the leds you must have your lamp further away. Just trying to figger if I'm missing out on something here....:detective1:

Not really! I just hate to waste Watts

It's them damn 'lectric sheep and their lambertian spread again, wasting my hard earned Watts ! <grumble grumble>

YO!
YOUSE TWO EWES GET OFF MY GRASS!!!

By directing all the light to exactly where I want it I can raise the lamp up out of my way and still get great results.
Going by the difference between my lensed and unlensed 5W arrays.
Pointing the photons straight down multiplies the lamp power X 3+ !
At a very reasonable, one time cost.
And, it gives better penetration to the lower bud sites.

Do have to be carefull though.

Keep an eye on da stretchers.
Any closer than ~3" and you can bleach large ,round white, spots into your leaves.:(

AHA! I think that's credited, maybe at the beginning of the movie. A google search of "electric sheep" looked like it was leading me into some PtP sites I didn't quite trust. Then, I got distracted...:D What a beautifully cast flick, though. Maybe a Brion James avatar for awhile...

Ugh! grottiest scene in an incredibly beautiful flick.
Ick!
Not for the squeamish.

The art direction is superb though.
Makes it worth Al the gore.:D

P.S. Got so tired last night I conked out, woke up and worked some more, then conked out again :stoned: (5 am) and didn't wake up till noon. Unfortunately, I left the flap on the flower closet open so there was 5 extra hours of (low-level) light disturbing my girls. :mad: Now, I must watch for "the dreaded hermie." How redundant. However, I remain optimistic. :thumbsup:


I think it gonna be OK, depending on the strain.
One 5 hour, low level screw-up probably won't hurt WW.:cool:
Two or three day running?
Then I'd worry.

Don't ask,
but do tell.:D

Mahalo nui loa for da use of da hall.
Weeze.

[DreadedHermie]

Ugh! grottiest scene in an incredibly beautiful flick.
Ick!
Not for the squeamish.


I was sorry to learn just now that Brion James died of a heart attack almost 10 years ago. So Rutger, but yeah, a little unnerving. Something quirky from the idyllic past next, I think. :)


Makes it worth Al the gore.
Him I remember. Invented the hole in the ozone, right?


Pointing the photons straight down multiplies the lamp power X 3+ !
Sooooo- where'd ya find the lenses?


One 5 hour, low level screw-up probably won't hurt WW.
:S2: :S2:

WW. That's rich. :( No, this is a French strain called "La Merde Dans le Sac."

Oops. Time for work again. Hermie

[Weezard]

;)
I was sorry to learn just now that Brion James died of a heart attack almost 10 years ago. So Rutger, but yeah, a little unnerving. Something quirky from the idyllic past next, I think. :)


Him I remember. Invented the hole in the ozone, right?

Sooooo- where'd ya find the lenses?

Not gonna send you there until I know that they fit our LEDs

:S2: :S2:

WW. That's rich. :( No, this is a French strain called "La Merde Dans le Sac."

Oops. Time for work again. Hermie

Oh, you mean die "Die strasse kacke, ja.:lol5:

I did forget.

Vell, it's like the gameshow host told Mrs. Presskey from Pine Barren N.J. when she said;

"But, this is a just a bag of shit!"

Ja, aber sie ist "really great shit, Mrs Presskey"
Gotta assume that it was, else why bother? :D

Note;
On da Islands, most street weed is from WW seed.
So there!:fish:

Aloha
Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

Also found a 12V. 21A. supply and a couple 12V. 8A. dimmers dirt cheap.

Leds tested well.
Got 5 that eat 1.2A @ 10.5V.
4 @ 10.4V and 1 @ 10.3V.



Here's one way to hook these up:

The 12 Volt power supply can deliver 21 Amps of current, which is a buttload. (bL) (sorry, kidding)

If you hook up the 8 Amp dimmers in parallel and run the 12V supply into them, they'll share the available current (up to 10.5 Amps each). So, the power supply has adequate headroom to push these 2 dimmers.

One dimmer's easy: dial it down where it only puts out 10.5 Volts. Wire the 5 leds that draw 1.2 Amps (1200mA) at 10.5 volts in parallel, and connect to the output of the dimmer. 5 leds each drawing 1.2 Amps = 6.0 Amps, and the dimmer's capable of handling 8 Amps, so we're good.

N.B.: Weezard and I like running the 1.5A leds at only 1.2A. They're more efficient that way, and gives a little margin of safety.


Wiring the other 5 leds gives us some options, but still easy enough....
The one led that only needs 10.3 volts to draw its 1.2 amps is a minor "current hog." If we were to feed it the same 10.5 Volts we sent to the first 5 leds, the dang thing might pull enough current to blow it, or at least make it run hot enough that the efficiency goes down. (Leds produce LESS light when they run too hot, and this is why we're interested. And the hotter they get, the more current they might pull. It's a vicious cycle, and anti-productive.)

So we want to feed the 10.3 Volt led with no more that that: 10.3 Volts.
One option is to set the second dimmer at 10.3 Volts. The one led will draw its 1.2 Amps at that voltage, The leds that needed 10.4 volts to pull the full 1.2 Amps will draw somewhat less at 10.3V; probably ~1.1 Amps. Big deal --4 of the leds are running just a tad cooler.

A more "aggressive" approach would be to run the second dimmer at 10.4 Volts, matching the 4 leds. But that's gonna push "Mr. 10.3V" past our 1.2 Amp target.

Solution? protect it with a resistor.

Value? Ohm's Law. R=E/I

R = .1V / 1.2A, or .08 Ohms.
That's such a small value (~.1 Ohm) you might have trouble finding it. That resistor was just gonna waste our power by turning it into heat anyway....

So you could check Mr. 10.3V and see just how much he pulls at 10.4V. If he only wants, say, 1.3A, you could run him nekked with the 10.4's if you're feeling daring.

Or, run them all at 10.3 and let the 10.4's loaf a little.


So, until you measure each led and see what it actually draws, you don't know what your best option is. Led's are grouped in ranges of Vf, wavelength, output, etc. called "bins". For how high-tech they seem, they are inconsistent. So you have to measure, but the rules stay the same.

Be interested to see how Weezard is planning to use these. What I outlined above is just an example; quick and dirty. Having some kind of current regulation would be nice.

And my head hurts. This math stuff is too boring on its own. Weezard's approach is mo' bettah. :jointsmile:

[DreadedHermie]

Just reread my post above. What a snore-fest. I suck at tech writing, and I think I may have damaged part of my brain attempting it just now. :madnoel:


Ja, aber sie ist "really great shit, Mrs Presskey"
Gotta assume that it was, else why bother?

Nein, nicht so sehr. Best I could find, been outta the game for a decade or three. But I do enjoy gardening. My favorite sport, next to chess and wife-beating. :pimp:



Note;
On da Islands, most street weed is from WW seed.


Well, aren't we just so special... (use Church Lady voice ;) ) I suppose ya'll refresh in bathtubs of Dutch beer, and all the ladies are gorgeous and willing.

(Roun' heanh' takes 'bout thitty-too of 'em to make up a full setta teef. An' dey so fat, the backa dey neck look like a package of hot dogs. :D)

And most street weed around here (truly the sphincter of the CONUS) resembles an oregano / thyme hybrid at best. :wtf:

Fortunately, it responds well to :weedpoke:

[Weezard]

:lol5:


Just reread my post above. What a snore-fest. I suck at tech writing, and I think I may have damaged part of my brain attempting it just now. :madnoel:

But, it's like you read my mind.:tin foil hat:
Either that, or you took the most logical route. ;)


Nein, nicht so sehr. Best I could find, been outta the game for a decade or three. But I do enjoy gardening. My favorite sport, next to chess and wife-beating. :pimp:

Das ist shrecklich! Sie sind sehr bose.:wtf:

Well, aren't we just so special... (use Church Lady voice ;) )

Do da dance, do da dance!:yippee:

I suppose ya'll refresh in bathtubs of Dutch beer, and all the ladies are gorgeous and willing.

Gorgeous but won'ting.

There can only be one. It's da wife. -Greenthing.

Did I tell ya that she brews fine wines for me.
And I do brew great batches of beer and ale for da bode of us.:cool:

(Roun' heanh' takes 'bout thitty-too of 'em to make up a full setta teef. An' dey so fat, the backa dey neck look like a package of hot dogs. :D)

And most street weed around here (truly the sphincter of the CONUS) resembles an oregano / thyme hybrid at best. :wtf:

Fortunately, it responds well to :weedpoke:

Set up a temporary mail drop, and I'll send ya some seed wif a full set o teef, bro.
Least I can do for my personal 'splainer.:D

Heatsink arrived!:cool:
I'm in polishing mode for a while.

Gotta nip on over to da lounge and start a special thread now.

"Calling out to DreadedHermie for a game of Stoner Chess"

http://boards.cannabis.com/games-arcade-talk/169569-calling-out-dreadedhermie-game-stoner-chess.html#post1976275

Wee Zard

[voodoojnky]

Great thread guys:thumbsup:

Quick question I read that you were using LEDEngin led's are their any other ones or what freq you using?

[Weezard]

Great thread guys:thumbsup:

Quick question I read that you were using LEDEngin led's are their any other ones or what freq you using?

We were, but the cheap sources are drying-up and I can't afford Mouser's prices for the 660 nm.:(

Still waiting for horses.
Went looking for my themal epoxy.
Came up dry.
I WILL find it.

Calling on past experience, I ordered more.
That always works.:D


New build should commence within the week.
Thank's for askin' V.J.

Regards,
Weezard.

[Weezard]

Got the honkin' big heatsink polished and ready.
100 sq. in. w 1.5" fins.
[attachment=o215395].

Now awaiting a slow boat from china.
<sigh>
If I was a good waiter, I'd get a lot more tips.

Impatient Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

Oh, you sneaky bastid, you! Where've you bin hidin dat beauty? Kiddin u no.
:stoned: Homey

[Weezard]

Oh, you sneaky bastid, you! Where've you bin hidin dat beauty? Kiddin u no.
:stoned: Homey

I alla time kiddin' us.
Comes wit da lolo.

Dis one was used, but got tossed in a dustbin wit some scratchy trash.
Got it for a song.
Out-bid a miser.:D

She were one fugly hunka, 'pon her arrival.
Did a high-school makeover da easy way.
Li'l sandpaper, li'l steel wool, very li'l elbow grease.
(I runnin' low on dat)
Den some rubbing compound an' a ginormous buffer!

Back inna day, I woulda gone all guage-block on 'er ass.
Da leds den be stuck-on through molecular adhesion.
No mo' dat. Older n wiser, ya?
Now, half-assed be jus' fine.
We smear on da goop fo' to fill in da tiny scratches.

Your 'sink guy is toolin' up some 11"- 12" wide, all you can eat sinks in a while.
I couldn't wait.
Maybe next time.

Da difficult?
We do dat straight away!
Da impossible?
Gonna take perhaps a day.
Fo' all da naysayers?
Lemme hear ya say NAY!

O. K.
While wait fo' horses, I go play.

Back inna Hi whyan minute.
Wee Zard

[DreadedHermie]

Back inna day, I woulda gone all guage-block on 'er ass.
Da leds den be stuck-on through molecular adhesion.


What about removing leds?

That freakin' epoxy is about 100 times stronger than it needs to be for attaching leds. I've seen it suggested that freezing your assembled unit down to cryogenic levels, then judiciously applying a small, water-backed charge of high explosive "might" help you get 'em off. :D All I want is that they don't leap off the light to a fiery death. I have too much blood on my hands already. ;)

Also saw it suggested to mix thermal grease in with the epoxy to weaken the bond. That just seems wrong. Like pouring beer into a Manhattan.

I'm thinking of deliberately mis-mixing the epoxy. The thermal conductance shouldn't be much different. (?) Thinkin' of practicing with washers / pennies / etc. when I get a spare ms. Have you tried this already?

[Weezard]

What about removing leds?

With the molecular adhesion of a guage block, it's easy, just slide 'em off sideways.:D

That freakin' epoxy is about 100 times stronger than it needs to be for attaching leds. I've seen it suggested that freezing your assembled unit down to cryogenic levels, then judiciously applying a small, water-backed charge of high explosive "might" help you get 'em off. :D All I want is that they don't leap off the light to a fiery death. I have too much blood on my hands already. ;)

Also saw it suggested to mix thermal grease in with the epoxy to weaken the bond. That just seems wrong. Like pouring beer into a Manhattan.

If no fit, put spit

I'm thinking of deliberately mis-mixing the epoxy. The thermal conductance shouldn't be much different. (?) Thinkin' of practicing with washers / pennies / etc. when I get a spare ms. Have you tried this already?


With epoxied leds?
Mo' betta, jus' leave 'em be.
Glue on da new one, side by side.
Leave da fried guys on as a warning for shirkers.

Hello-o, Lazy guy here!:D
Yer just nevah gonna catch me workin' dat hard.

What ya can't wipe off, paint over, ya?
Wee lazy Zard

[DreadedHermie]

Dang, Weezard. You got puffy sleeves for all dem tricks!

From Wikipedia:

The detailed physics responsible for this phenomenon remains unclear.

Holy crap!! Magic! I thought you were talking about hand-lapping to dead true and then using glue. You gonna stick 'em on with frickin' voodoo. Cheater! (Quite the insult from someone with my scruples at chess. :cool:)


With epoxied leds?
Mo' betta, jus' leave 'em be.
Glue on da new one, side by side.


Yep, that's what I did.
I was talkin' about attaching future, new, non-blown leds that I might wanna move (and have them survive relocation) someday.

Molecular adhesion. Sounds like a bonfire waiting to happen, and I oughtta know! :wtf: Look out! Hermie seems exciteable today!

[DreadedHermie]

Leave da fried guys on as a warning for shirkers.



Um, like a shrunken head on a spear kinda thing. 'Scuse please, gotta check my email.

And my chicken bones. :lol5::lol5:

[Weezard]

Dang, Weezard. You got puffy sleeves for all dem tricks!

From Wikipedia:


Holy crap!! Magic! I thought you were talking about hand-lapping to dead true and then using glue. You gonna stick 'em on with frickin' voodoo. Cheater! (Quite the insult from someone with my scruples at chess. :cool:)

No worry, I got more dan enough scruples of my own.
Always trippin' over 'em.

Yes I did notice that you ignored my knight's move.
Was kinda waiting for you to catch that.
Then, just when I decided to let it slide as a handicap, you effectively typed CLUNK! and da board went tits up.
Just as well. If you don't have a deep love for da game, you were only humoring me to play at all.
I do appreciate it.:1baa:
If you manage a visit to the island, I'll be tickled to sit down and reveal the intricate beauty of da game.
Then you gonna be trolling for worthy opponents too.:cool:


Yep, that's what I did.
I was talkin' about attaching future, new, non-blown leds that I might wanna move (and have them survive relocation) someday.

Molecular adhesion. Sounds like a bonfire waiting to happen, and I oughtta know! :wtf: Look out! Hermie seems exciteable today!

Unlax, DH.
Just 'cause there's magic afoot, don't mean I'll put forth the effort needed to invoke it.
It's gonna be "gloss n glue" fo' dis one.

Just one more case where "half assed is MORE than good enough" (Our state motto)

Thanks for them fish.
Weezard.

[DreadedHermie]

Yes I did notice that you ignored my knight's move.
Was kinda waiting for you to catch that.


Duh. I just missed it. I was reading yer werds. An' waitin' for a move you already made. I thought you were busy wiping fingerprints off cyberdoorknobs. :cool:

I can unclunk the board. It's just a jpeg, after all...



If you don't have a deep love for da game, you were only humoring me

I just don't know the game. I don't know Morgan Fairchild, either. But I think I could love her if I did. :thumbsup:

[DreadedHermie]

[attachment=o215489]

(She's my wife, you know...)

[Weezard]

[attachment=o215489]

(She's my wife, you know...)


Um, does she know that?:D

Weeze

[frostymcfailure]

been thur, Hit that, got the T-shirt. :pimp:

[DreadedHermie]

From Wikipedia:

"The Pathological Liar is a character created and portrayed by Jon Lovitz, often appearing on Weekend Update segments - and other sketches - to share his farcical views. The character's name was actually Tommy Flanagan (pronounced [flə-'nā-gən], not to be confused with the jazz pianist), and he would tell outrageous whoppers in an effort to make himself seem important (such as his claim that he invented Rock and Roll). One recurring lie was claiming he was married to Morgan Fairchild. His devious look, hand rubbing and nervous speech made it clear he was making up lies, one after the other, on the spot. And if he came up with a particularly good lie he would add the catchphrase: "Yeahhh! That's the ticket!""

Sorry, Frosty. She says she doesn't remember ya! :hippy:

[Weezard]

Me, she remembers.:thumbsup:
With a permanent TRO:(

Yeah!
Weeze

[Weezard]

OK.
Moving right along.
Got the leds mounted to the heatsink.
[attachment=o215763]
Running some burn-in tests with my bench supply while I wait for that slow boat from China.
[attachment=o215765]
Here's a 45 degree lens.

(Oops. I'll insert the lens pics in the next post.)

Only gained 25% when I used these with the reds.
Not worth the heat increase.
Same lens on the blue led doubles the lux reading at 12"!

Am waiting for some 60 degree lenses for the reds
Meanwhile back on the photon pharm.
[attachment=o215766]

More later.
Prolly much later.

Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

I am with you in spirit, my brother. :thumbsup:

[Weezard]

No smoke so far.:thumbsup:
Oh yeah, here are the missing lens photos:
[attachment=o215816]
[attachment=o215817]
Still waiting for the 60 degree lenses.
I'll use the extra 45s for the 5 Watt array.

Not a lot of construction details because it's all in the pictures.
Buy 'em glue 'em wire 'em.
Well, actually setting the current limit can be tricky.
If anyone is actually following this, I'll be happy to walk them through it when the time comes.

Monitor died this morning.
Gotta hunt down a new one.
It's always sumpin'.

Weezard

[Weezard]

Slapped 3 muffin fans on the back and dialed in 10.4 amps by adjusting the constant VOLTAGE supply.
[attachment=o216159]
So we can cook 'em a little and watch for current drift.
Still waiting for the right fan so I can kick it up a notch.

Weeze

[voodoojnky]

Slapped 3 muffin fans on the back and dialed in 10.4 amps by adjusting the constant VOLTAGE supply.
[attachment=o216159]
So we can cook 'em a little and watch for current drift.
Still waiting for the right fan so I can kick it up a notch.

Weeze

How hot does the heatsink get without the fan?

[Weezard]

How hot does the heatsink get without the fan?


Don't know, actually.
That would be a costly experiment.
Led death is the upper limit with no airflow!:(

These leds are eating about 150 Watts.
Unlike most sources of light, leds do not radiate much heat with the visible light, so we have to dispose of the heat produced by moving it away from the emitters as efficiently as possible.
With no heatsink, these pups would pop in a fraction of a minute.
With a heatsink and no fan it would take a while, but the heat extracted from the emitters has to go somewhere.
If we don't remove it from the 'sink faster than we generate it, it's a matter of time before component failure.
I did run the first blush without a fan but after 5 minutes the sink had reached 100 degrees F. that's 20 degrees above ambient.
3. 80mm. muffin fans keep it under 90 F.

I've ordered several fans and will use the quietest one that does the job.
I'm still testing for creeping current now to see if I can safely run this without adding 12 Constant current drivers.
IF, it is stable with one central constant voltage source, we're done and will not need the dimmers or the CCs

My "brick" of 5 Watt emitters on a smaller heatsink had enough current drift to worry me so I re-did it yesterday adding 3 LM317 current regulators;

[attachment=o216168]

Slowed it's fan to about 1/4 speed and let it cook.
After 1 hour my heatgun said 120 F.
:microwave:
At 1/2 speed it's at 90 F. and still all but silent.:)
More than I can say for the Chinese UFO.:(

Today, I use the "brick" to play with lensing.:weedpoke:

Aloha,
Weezard

[Weezard]

Fan caught my fingertip.
That's gonna leave a mark! :(



Had a plan to draw air up from the light using reflectix to route the air.
Put a shroud around the 'sink to draw the air in from the sides and up past the power supplies.

Looked great, on paper.:(
My tempgun said 97 F.
My finger said, "That tempgun is lying to ya!"

"In theory, theory and practice are the same thing.
In practice, they are not!" <sigh>

Tore it all apart and started over.
Now have the fan about an inch above the 'sink with the air blowing down.

[attachment=o216428]

[attachment=o216429]

Much mo' betta;
About 90 degrees F. after one hour.
It's a 30V. fan running on 12.5V.
Not silent, but quiet enough for a bedroom.
Leds are pulling 14.5 Amps.
About 150 Watts is the total led draw.
I'll know the total power used in 24 hours or so.
Now I'll let it cook for a few days and then re-test for current draw.

Luxmeter says 90k at 2 inches.
So, without lenses, I should get about 22k Lux at 4"

Plants stop growing under 90k of white light.
I'll be testing to see how much red/blue is "too much".
These light meters are calibrated for visible light though.

So, all that these readings are good for, is a relative comparison between 2 similar arrays.
Once this array is in service I'll compare readings with my 5 Watt led arrays.

More pics later.

Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

Weezard, a few months back I caught the tip of my thumb in one of my computer fans and it sliced / ripped off half the nail, along with some tissue. Painful incident, and a long, painful recovery due to my volunteer work providing low-cost pelvic exams to deserving young actresses. :D I do believe if I'd have caught it right I would have amputated part of a digit. :eek:

When I was deciding what fans would line up with the fins on my heatsink I always mentioned finger guards. That injury was why. Sorry, I should have warned you more directly. Hope you're not permanently maimed. Those suckas are much more dangerous than hot McBurger coffee. Maybe we could have a class-action lawsuit? (Or, in my case, a "no-class" suit...)

Plaintiffs:
"Eddie 2-fingers"
"Lefty"
"Stubbs" etc., etc.

Be back soon. Have been having technical (electrical) issues at work, repairing old ("vintage" would be flattery) stuff as it pyro-detonates. (And I know what you're thinking... but I'm totally passive in this and just doing easy diagnostic and repair. I will admit to having burned up enough leds to finance a date with a starlet-turned-callgirl, but I am not causing THIS.) And, I busted my Fluke trying to get a reading while perched an a....well, never mind.

It's not that I'm accident-prone. Not at all. I just attempt things sometimes that a person with better judgement would not. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the build log, though. I will have many questions. Hermie.

P.S. ifyoutakeenoughmeatoffyourthumbyoucan'tusethespace bar:stoned:

[Weezard]

Your point is, er, was almost taken.
Mine was not. Just a moments owie.:thumbsup: See?
But it did take a divot out of the nail.
(You have to look real close)

Dropped everything and installed the fan guard.:o

[attachment=o216516]

Going kinda ballstothewall with this array design.

Got no current limit, so temperature control is mandatory.
Did not like the dimmers, too easy to "bump the potentiometer up, even with the knob removed.
Had marked a max. position and thought about replacing the potentiometer with a pair of resistors. But also noticed how hot the un-heatsinked, triac inside was getting.
Sealed in a heavy plastic box with no ventilation.:wtf:
(<Sigh> Guess that's why it was dirt cheap on e-bay.)

Quit trying to double-duty the fan and decided to remote the supply and give it it's own fan.
Then remembered a trick from the '50s
When us po' kids needed a sub 1 ohm, high wattage resistor.
We rolled our own out of nichrome wire.
Had a chart of resistance per foot of different gauge wire.

So, I'm thinkin' I need to drop my Vin. to the dimmers so the MAX out is 10.8 Vdc. Then, I can turn it down to change the B:R , have minimum heat dissipation in the dimmers and a, "do no harm", upper limit.

So I figure I've got 12 amps to work with. Should be easy to calculate, for some folks. :(

But, no worry, true to my redneck roots, I just grabbed 6 feet of 16 guage lamp cord, ran it between the supply and the sink, whipped out my meter and plugged her in.

Blind pig got good nose, brah.:D
Nailed it! :thumbsup:1st try.
Dimmers at max.= 10.82V.
'bout 1.25Amps per lamp.

Using 16 gauge, instead of 14 gauge lets me do some crude current regulation as well.
If the current load increases, so does the voltage drop in the supply line.
The heat is spread out evenly in the 6 feet wire which does feel a tad warm to the touch.
And now I can mount the 12V. 21 A. and the 15V 2.5 A power modules near the exhaust fan in the bloomery and take some weight and heat off the lamp.

Just put it into service today and found spider mites!
Guess I let my no-pest strip get 4 months old.
Ran right out and bought some fresh ones.
No want dese buggahs building a resistance.

They prolly rode in on a trojan clone.
(Geeks bearing gifts on the ides of April...)

Good to hear from you.

Feel free to take me to task for my less than conventional electriciacating.:rastasmoke:

Many hands make light work.

Wee Zard

[DreadedHermie]

What are the dimmers doing in the circuit now? Is there a voltage drop across them at wide open? I can't believe 6 ft. of 16ga would drop the voltage that much. I will pretty much have to take yer word for it, though, since I dropped my freakin' Fluke! :mad:

[Weezard]

What are the dimmers doing in the circuit now? Is there a voltage drop across them at wide open? I can't believe 6 ft. of 16ga would drop the voltage that much. I will pretty much have to take yer word for it, though, since I dropped my freakin' Fluke! :mad:

They drop from 11.3V to 10.8. 'bout a half a volt when full-on.
The wire drops .7V from 12 to 11.3.
Might have to use the dimmers to tone it down.
It's still throwing off a lot of heat. Room is hittin' 95. F.
Gonna turn it down to 1 amp at about 10.5 or 10.6 V.
That's still 100Watts of 660 and 30 watts of 460nm.
At least until the new fans arrive.
Was actually building it to raise 2 new super bean seedlings.
But the last three beans I popped threw balls on the flop.
Need any pollen?

Must be a newer Fluke, yah?.
Dropping don't bother the old ones.
Got two that I've used since the '70s
Rode 'em hard, put 'em away wet.

That's back when John D. Fluke made them for the love of it.
Interesting story.
Mr. Fluke was not getting rich producing fine, almost unbreakable meters.
He got talked into hiring a pair of "business consultants"
to find out what was "wrong" with his company
In short, they concluded that he, John D., was the problem:wtf:.

Made the product too damn good and too damn durable.
Kicked him out, took over the business, made a profit.
Also made meters, sort of.:(
It's just never been the same.

See if ya can't find a used, old one on ebay.

Oh, and it's your move.

Aloha,
Weeze

[Weezard]

Took some in-service snaps;
[attachment=o216605]

Not wild about my cooling solution, it spews the heat into the room. I had wanted to use dryer type flex hose to remove the heat.
Hmmmm.
Perhaps now that the fan is closer to the sink, I can try flipping the fan over, (It's got built-in polarity protection),
and cutting some notches in the 4 outer fins to let them join the party, I can go back to my "suck the heat out" scheme.

Got 2 more fan options coming in the mail.
So, guess it's time to wait again.

I no like to wait.
Wee Zard

[DreadedHermie]

Weezard, you've not mentioned exchanging air in the grow space, and what all you've got generating heat in there.

If you've still got your transformers/drivers in there it's one thing, but my 6+2 light seems very cool running. Granted, it will heat up a sealed closet in an hour or less, but so can a fan motor. I'm just spewing the heat into the grow area, where it is quickly exhausted thru a scrubber. The downside is that heat gets dumped into my living environment; no way around that. But it's very manageable.

I mounted my fans flush against the fins, copying the Procyon. Ryan has his fan pulling air thru the fins and up away from the unit. I copied that, too. Works really well.

I would think a good 92mm fan, mounted to the fins and firing through a 6" dryer duct to the outside would cool that thang. But, much I don't know about the setup.

(New topic) :stoned:

I know it's early on, but have you made any observations/conclusions about the 10:2 ratio? (I'm thinking at this moment, "Hmm....maybe I won't add those 4 reds to my light if it's causing Weezard heat problems...) I won't have a chance to work on a light for a few weeks, but the window on acquiring parts may be closing soon. ;)

How was the 4:1 ratio in your cakepanlamp? When I read "My next lamp will have 2 blues" I took that to mean you were looking for a bluer ratio than 4:1. But I'm thinking an 8:2 light might suit me for flower. Have you determined if 10:2 is overkill with the reds? (As the French say; "One never knows what is 'enough' until one knows what is 'too much.'") (Naturally, they they say that in French...):D

Gotta go. I'm following along, though. Busy, busy. Could be worse. :thumbsup:

[DreadedHermie]

I wanted to ask, because I know you were a dirt guy at one time. Ya know how perlite dances around in a bag that's got a 'static' charge on it?

Is there a way to create a "perlite magnet" using a coil around a glass rod or a piece of amber or suppin' like that? Disposing of dirt is easy. Disposing of dirt with perlite...can raise eyebrows. Besides, it would be fiscally and environmentally sound to recycle the dang stuff, anyway. What do you think?

Good to chat, Hermie.

[Weezard]

I would think a good 92mm fan, mounted to the fins and firing through a 6" dryer duct to the outside would cool that thang. But, much I don't know about the setup. "

And that was my plan, with a 150mm. fan.
But from 2 1/2 inches above the fins, even with reflectix routing, it was inadequate.
Had to flip it over to run the burn-in safely.

Now that "Reddy Kilowatt" is through larking about, I'm ready to try to do it right and port the heat outside.
I can afford to allow some escape of fragrance 'cause my neighbor is growing 30 plants outdoors.

"I won't have a chance to work on a light for a few weeks, but the window on acquiring parts may be closing soon. ;)"

Not for the blues. And a mix of 660nm. and 625 nm. just might be a good thing.

"How was the 4:1 ratio in your cakepanlamp?"

There was a little stretching of the top buds.
Happened after the pre-flower stretch of the stem.
Started to look like this;
[attachment=o216777]
Then in the last 2 weeks, did this;
[attachment=o216776]

"When I read "My next lamp will have 2 blues" I took that to mean you were looking for a bluer ratio than 4:1. But I'm thinking an 8:2 light might suit me for flower. Have you determined if 10:2 is overkill with the reds? (As the French say; "One never knows what is 'enough' until one knows what is 'too much.'") (Naturally, they say that in French...):D"

Mais Weeze mon frere.

That's the plan.
However, 8:2, 10:2, etc.
Are just numbers without a ton of details.
Blue leds are less efficient than reds, different bins = different characteristics within a color, etc.

To get a true ratio, we have to use KNNA numbers.:D

Since I'm unsure what is best, right from the git, I'm unwilling to make that kine effort.
If I ever descend into "micromole land," I may not return.
Math is seductive, it can own you.
At the least, very little practical magic would get done.:i feel stupid:

I changed the plan from a dimmer on the blue, to two dimmers for the reds.
Then did an overkill on the number of reds.
I know that 30W of blue will do a great veg .with little or no stretch. So I can add red with the dimmers to try to find the ideal ratio for vegging.
Then I can add more red to the ratio for blooming to look for the best ratio there.
I only ran the reds flat-out for the smoke test/burn-in.
But, if it turns out to need full-on red, it's still got to run cool.
That's why I'm STILL waiting for fans to arrive before I chop any more holes in floor and ceilings.:(

Havin' fun though,
Weeze

[Weezard]

I wanted to ask, because I know you were a dirt guy at one time. Ya know how perlite dances around in a bag that's got a 'static' charge on it?

Is there a way to create a "perlite magnet" using a coil around a glass rod or a piece of amber or suppin' like that? Disposing of dirt is easy. Disposing of dirt with perlite...can raise eyebrows. Besides, it would be fiscally and environmentally sound to recycle the dang stuff, anyway. What do you think?

Good to chat, Hermie.

That's something to think about.
Let's do dat.
It's very light weight.

You could make a great "static magnet" by rubbing a balloon in your hair.
I'm pretty sure it would attract dry soil particles as well.:(

You could use the wind to try to "winnow" it to a tarp.
Needs choke room though and the wind will have it's little jokes.;)

I'm geussing that the most practical would be to dissolve the dirt in an overabundance of water. Perlite will float to the top for skimming.
Could be stuffed into mesh bags for cleaning and re-use.
Not sure that re-use is a good idea but it is also compressible. So...
Could be rammed into soup cans and tossed with the garbage.

I still use some soil, well, coco, but have not required perlite so far.

Gotta run, but I'll give this some thought.

Aloha,
Wee Zard

[Weezard]

Just learned something over at IC.
Guy was asking folks what the current use was in their knockoff UFOs.
His is drawing .25A which is about 30Watts!
I bought a UFO knockoff for $220 USD from da bay .
Just hung a meter on it.
It's drawing .65A or about 71Watts.
Hmmm. there are several layers of being ripped off.
I got lucky this time.

While I was metering I checked my new monster light.
With the reds at about 3/4 up, I draw 190W.
Flat out, it eats 250W!
And theres a lousy power factor, (V x A & Watts don't match), thanks to the fan and cheap power supply.

Off to the market. Jiggity jig.
Weezard

[DreadedHermie]

Hypothetically, let's say I have 12 - 15W. leds and want to run them at 10.8V. which (because they are perfectly matched, hypothetically) will make each of them pull 1.2A each.

That would be a total load of ~14.4 amps.

Will a Mastech 3010 drive a load like that?

I know it only goes up to 30V.; tried it. So, I assumed it would only "go up to" 10A. :i feel stupid: But at a lower (like 10V.) voltage will it put out up to ~30A?

I don't have a 10 to 12 V. dummy load (or do I?) that'll take 14A (and survive :D) to test this. Weezard, I noticed in one of your burn-in photos the Mastech was running at 10.6A (thought I was seeing double :stoned:). How much higher will these things safely go? Could I drive a dozen well-matched hi-power leds at <12V. with one?

Watching your progress intently, Hermie.

[Weezard]

Hypothetically, let's say I have 12 - 15W. leds and want to run them at 10.8V. which (because they are perfectly matched, hypothetically) will make each of them pull 1.2A each.

That would be a total load of ~14.4 amps.

Will a Mastech 3010 drive a load like that?

I know it only goes up to 30V.; tried it. So, I assumed it would only "go up to" 10A. :i feel stupid: But at a lower (like 10V.) voltage will it put out up to ~30A?

I don't have a 10 to 12 V. dummy load (or do I?) that'll take 14A (and survive :D) to test this. Weezard, I noticed in one of your burn-in photos the Mastech was running at 10.6A (thought I was seeing double :stoned:). How much higher will these things safely go? Could I drive a dozen well-matched hi-power leds at <12V. with one?

Watching your progress intently, Hermie.

In other words, Frayed knot.:(

10.6 A. is just about max for da Mastech 3010 at any voltage.
Put a clone in to preflower streatch and as soon as it started "reaching"
I turned the reds down from 5:1 to about 2:1 and the stretch stopped.
I would think that lower light overall would increase stretch?

So, it looks like it will be easy to control internode distance with this design by playing with the R:B ratio.
Got some more fans today and some 6" dryer hose.

Be back tomorrow.
Weeze

[Weezard]

Bumpity bump!

Just had to pull those dimmers and stick 'em where the sun don't shine.
Under the shroud that is.
[attachment=o217083]
Flipped the fan over and mounted it in a reducer.
[attachment=o217084]
I'll mount the dials on the shroud and calibrate them with the Lux meter.
Been running cool for an hour, outdoors with a breeze.
It's quieter now, looks better too.
[attachment=o217085]
Also have a new fan for the power supply.
That pup runs hot!
Cheap is as cheap does.:(
Things get sold on E-bay for a reason,yah?:smokin:

Might replace it with a nice quiet, cool running computer supply next time I find my round tuit.

Das ist alles.
I'm pau for the day.
Don't mind workin'
But I'd much rather play.:cool::jointsmile:

Aloha, y'all

Weeze

[Weezard]

The BubbaBlaze 2000
[attachment=o217086]
A fully adjustable photosynthesis facilitation apparatus.:D

Actually, just thought I'd bump it with some led porn.;)
Can't wait for sundown.:stoned:

l8r
Weeze

[Weezard]

Yay!
Beat the heat.
This works a treat.

Meanwhile, I was waiting for epoxy to dry, and got curious.
I opened the case on my UFO knock off.
(Oh Horrors, there goes my warrenty!)

Cheese cries!
Obviously built by chimps in a hurry.
Nothing in it, really.
One power cube for the three cheap fans.
2 sealed "black-box" kine current limiters to drive the 1Watt SMLs
At least I assume they are current pucks.

Well, ok, I fervently hope they are.
Everything is thickly smeared with silicone caulking.
Looks like it was applied by trolls, with mops.

Now I don't feel so bad about the esthetics of Frankenlicht;
[attachment=o217105]

I'll attach and calibrate the dimmer knobs tomorrow.
Start turning them down and make a mark for every 10% drop in relative Lux from 1 foot.
I may not know actual ratios, but I'll at least be able to tie a number to my results.
A must-have, should I ever remember to document anything.:rastasmoke::o

Hmmm, mighty quiet up in here.

<Breeep, breep, ricket breeep>

Recon I'd better toddle off too then.

'night

W.

[oldmac]

Hey Weezard,

I really like the variable Red:Blue ratio. It reminds me of the company in NL that uses a computer control to adjust light spectrum for specific plants.

Kinda a poor mans' version. Hey how about naming it....

I suggest "dial-a-stretch". lol

Very nice work.

[Weezard]

Hey Weezard,

I really like the variable Red:Blue ratio. It reminds me of the company in NL that uses a computer control to adjust light spectrum for specific plants.

Kinda a poor mans' version. Hey how about naming it....

I suggest "dial-a-stretch". lol

Very nice work.

I like it!
Thanks, O. M.
Here's your first royalty payment. :twocents::jointsmile:
Could add labels to the dial markings as well.
From LTS (Long Tall Sally), to PWIS, (Pot what is squat).
Hmm, got me thinkin' again.
Where'd I put that labeling software...

BRB
W.

[MerryPrankstr]

Hey Weezard!

I've been lurking this thread for some time now with interest. That's a nice setup you have been building there. As the 5watt, 15 watt, and future generations of LED packages become available more cheaply using them will make even more sense then now, but someone's got to pioneer the method, eh?

They make axial fans that are wisper quiet yet blow like a hurricane, I've replaced them in CAT scanners, but they ain't cheap.

I love the tunable colors, by the way. :)

I went to a demonstration of LED surgical lights as part of my job. These were CREE and LEDngn LEDS in large arrays. One of the companies made a controller that allowed you to control the "color temperature" of the output. There's got to be a "controller" out there to allow you to drive the LED arrays by your computer.

Anyways good work and carry on... :thumbsup:
Merry

[Weezard]

Howzit, MP?

Thanks for the props, brah.

"They make axial fans that are wisper quiet yet blow like a hurricane, I've replaced them in CAT scanners, but they ain't cheap."

Amen to that!
I've seen prices that I wouldn't pay for a car.

I love the tunable colors, by the way. :)

Thanks, It's kinda Bass ackwards from nature's way.
There's not MORE red at the end of the day, there's actualy considerably less.
Looks red to us, 'cause the blue fades out first.
I'm hoping the girls don't notice;)

"One of the companies made a controller that allowed you to control the "color temperature" of the output. There's got to be a "controller" out there to allow you to drive the LED arrays by your computer."

There are several PIC controllers available.
Most are dedicated to mixing different shades of white.
All, are expensive and I'm kinda mono-culture oriented anyway.:jointsmile:
So, I have no need for rapid, real-time, changes.
I set a mix, write it down and watch for a week or so.
Once I know what works best for my favorite strains, I can go back to 2 kine hardwired lights for veg and bloom.
150 Watts of the red is overkill even for blooming. But I needed the headroom for testing.
Once I can outdo a 1k HPS for less than half the power cost, I'll consider this project pau.:cool:

These lights will then get hung in an auto-water leveling auto-buffering 5g. dwc bucketed tent and have a single seletor switch marked, oddly enough, Veg, and bloom.
I plan to make it "chimp simple".
Just slide it into a condo closet and plug it in.
Gonna call it Bubba's black-thumb system.:D

Not for commerce though, I'm retired.
Mostly so I won't have to stop growing if I get too senile.:smokin:

Trust me, had I found someone on the net doing this to my standards, free, or dirt cheap, my lazy ass would be floating in warm salt water 12/7.
I am one lazy lizard, brah.
Just doin' dis, 'cause, well, someone's gotta.

Show me a clutz proof, affordable, plug n play grow system, and I'll re-retire in a heartbeat.

Hana Pau!
Weezard

[MerryPrankstr]

"These lights will then get hung in an auto-water leveling auto-buffering 5g. dwc bucketed tent and have a single seletor switch marked, oddly enough, Veg, and bloom.
I plan to make it "chimp simple".
Just slide it into a condo closet and plug it in.
Gonna call it Bubba's black-thumb system."

Mine is based on the KISS principle, too.

One room for veg, one for flowers.

Dirt.

Real simple.

The girls are blooming nicely and I will most likely post my weekly pics in my "grow log" tomorrow.

Next week will be real busy as the wife and I are off to see the Dead for two days, but the girls won't need my attention. Simple is beautiful. I'm nearly retired, just a matter of when I get fed up now. Then it's up to the mountains of North Carolina for the both of us.

Later,
MP

[DreadedHermie]

I have to keep saving my posts as Word documents and try to paste them in before the board freezes up on me. Been trying to at least say hello for days. WeeZard, yer move. Merry, nice setup. Crossing fingers, hitting "Submit reply."

[DreadedHermie]

Here's the last one that got eaten...



Hey, Weez. Dropped in often; attempted a coupla short posts but the board ate both of 'em. No loss, jes' sayin' hey. I need to avoid that overload window of midnight-2am EST.

Thanks for the great photos. They'll clarify things for viewers, fer sure. I must say, with your reducer on the light it looks like a mini-nuclear power plant.

Going back a ways to ask:

Ever get the lenses you were waiting on?

You gonna add small heatsinks to the triacs in your dimmers? It's surprising they'll operate like that. I belive I'll glue additional sinkage to my meanwells once I get the hang of crippling my epoxy bond. Then I can bust 'em back off to reassemble the case if desired.

How about a "show us yer UFO's guts" comparison thread? Better still, with the actual power consumption included, and price paid. That's prolly the only way we'll get any "truth in advertising" out of these hucksters. I'll bet there's a dozen varieties being sold under double that many brand names.

Looks like you tacked down your leds with an extra spot of glue close to the solder pads. Probably really helps keep the bastids from squirming around as you try to work with them. My question: is that thermal epoxy, or the "other" stuff you're using (which I assume is Devcon 5 minute epoxy or something similar) to secure your leads to the heatsink.

Another question: (sorry, been saving these up for awhile :D) Do you have a plan / technique for accessing the leds individually after you connected them in the 2 parallel strings? (Like to retest after a month of burn-in) Or are they staying permanently wired up once you connect the strings? I ran a "+ and -" lead to each led and tacked it down in one place with epoxy. I ran each pair of wires around to the fin / topside of the light and connected them there so I could group them according to Vf. With more than 6+2 wire pairs this may get a little sloppy looking (especially with the free-air-architecture wiring technique).


Okay, not gonna press my luck. Hitting "submit." No dare preview, pls fergive typos.

[Weezard]

Here's the last one that got eaten...
"Going back a ways to ask:

Ever get the lenses you were waiting on?

Yes,
and no.
Got the lenses, but they were not what I wanted.:(

Boneheads set them in a black plastic collar that gets very hot very fast.
(This bonehead, read all about that and ordered them anyway)
I'm looking for those little parabolic reflectors that are used in mini-mag flashlights. They can be shimmed for different spread angles and run much cooler than refractive lenses, when clean.

You gonna add small heatsinks to the triacs in your dimmers?

Um, I mis-spoke when I called 'em triacs.
(I'm used to dimming AC)
This being DC, they are prolly SCRs or SCSs
Full-on the voltage drop across them is about .7 V.
At 6 Amps that's only 4.2 Watts.
Now that they are in the airstream, they run quite cool without any added 'sinks..


It's surprising they'll operate like that.

Not too. They are, after all, "little Off n onnies"
Very low Vf when on, and 0.0 current when off


I belive I'll glue additional sinkage to my meanwells once I get the hang of crippling my epoxy bond. Then I can bust 'em back off to reassemble the case if desired.

How about a "show us yer UFO's guts" comparison thread? Better still, with the actual power consumption included, and price paid. That's prolly the only way we'll get any "truth in advertising" out of these hucksters. I'll bet there's a dozen varieties being sold under double that many brand names.

That's a very good idea!

Looks like you tacked down your leds with an extra spot of glue close to the solder pads. Probably really helps keep the bastids from squirming around as you try to work with them. My question: is that thermal epoxy, or the "other" stuff you're using (which I assume is Devcon 5 minute epoxy or something similar) to secure your leads to the heatsink.

That's just plain old, cut it off with a razor, stickum

Another question: (sorry, been saving these up for awhile :D) Do you have a plan / technique for accessing the leds individually after you connected them in the 2 parallel strings? (Like to retest after a month of burn-in) Or are they staying permanently wired up once you connect the strings?

Yes, the wiring is semi-permanent as it stands.:rastasmoke:
I used removable stickum just in case my "even-ing" scheme was a wild pipe dream.

The scheme;
I tested and labeled each emitter then arranged them with the "Hottest" ones, (those with the lowest Vf. at 1.25A), at the end of the buss. Then fed them only from the cool end.
Each emitter added it's current load which increased the voltage drop in the supply wire. Putting the "hotter" ones at the end allows me to keep a good match in output of the emitters that _should_ hold as the unit ages
Had all the emitters matched, I'd have tied both ends of the + and - bus to the power supply and used heavier gauge buss wires.

I ran a "+ and -" lead to each led and tacked it down in one place with epoxy. I ran each pair of wires around to the fin / topside of the light and connected them there so I could group them according to Vf. With more than 6+2 wire pairs this may get a little sloppy looking (especially with the free-air-architecture wiring technique). "

Yep, using the wire resistance to "even out the bumps" allowed the shroud some free air flow.
And that solved my heat problem.
Kinda.
2 days of cookin' with the bloomery sealed and temps stayin' around 80 had me happy.
Then I looked in around noon and the room was 94 F. and the color was wrong!
Only the 2 blues were lit.

Unlikely that both dimmers would fail and the blues have their own power module.
So, gotta be the 12V. 21 Amp supply. 'cause the fan was down too.
Though I had placed the supply right under a ceiling vent,
It still got hot enough at 14 Amps draw, to trigger a thermal shutdown! Dang!
That supply now has it's own 120 mm. muffin fan and runs cool to the touch.

This will free up one of my earlier arrays for use in a clonery

Just lit this message up and hit control-C for luck.
Weeze takes a deep breath and...
Yay! The preview worked.
l8r
Weezard

[Dutch Pimp]

How come you never started an album here? (in your profile)...your other one rocks...:thumbsup:

[headshake]

we totally need a DIY section (especially for LEDs)! something that can be a little more "clean" and flow better than a monster like this! what do you guys and gals think?

and keep up the good work guys, inspiring stuff!


-shake

[Weezard]

How come you never started an album here? (in your profile)...your other one rocks...:thumbsup:

Well, thanks for the compliment, D.P.

I hesitate, with cause.
Simply said, I don't trust this board.

"Server is too busy at the moment" so bugger off for a while.:wtf:

It takes time and effort to create a decent album.

I put a lot of time and effort into " The perfect led light" thread here.
Best thread ever!:thumbsup:
Then, one day poof! Gone!:(
No explanation just gone.:mad:

A short while later the whole board goes tits-up and I'm looking at a "go play our crappy games screen" for weeks.
Again, no explanation, no ETA, no regrets:wtf:

I realize it's free, and I appreciate that, but so are the well run reliable boards that treat their contributors with some regard.
I'd rather pay a fee than get disrespected.

I'm not a patient person, can ya tell?
The only reason I still post here is because Crunchypants asked me to help him build a light.
He's sharp and entertaining.
It has been fun and rewarding for both of us but I think we're both fed-up with typing long posts that won't post!

Can open, worms all ovah da place!
Catch ya later, I must now go and be anointed to prepare for my banning;)

Aloha,
Weezard

[headshake]

well i don't want to loose all of you guys and your valuble information! something must be done. if the owner of the boards doesn't want to do anything, then perhaps something else should happen?


-shake

[Weezard]

well i don't want to lose all of you guys and your valuble information! something must be done. if the owner of the boards doesn't want to do anything, then perhaps something else should happen?


-shake

What do you suggest, Shake?
If I knew how to fix this board, there'd be less whining and more fixin'.:jointsmile:

I'm all ears.
Weeze

[headshake]

well the only thing i can think of is finding a new home. it's obvious the owner of the board doesn't care.

i know this might not be the most logical, or easy solution but it's a starting point. i've come to enjoy what we have here and would like it to continue. it's already bad enough after the "big outage of '09"!

i'm also open to suggestions and ideas. i'm by no means the ring leader here!


-shake

[Weezard]

well the only thing i can think of is finding a new home. it's obvious the owner of the board doesn't care.

i know this might not be the most logical, or easy solution but it's a starting point. i've come to enjoy what we have here and would like it to continue. it's already bad enough after the "big outage of '09"!

i'm also open to suggestions and ideas. i'm by no means the ring leader here!


-shake

She went down, with all hands in ought 9.

Most of us washed a-shore at icmag.
Stinky attic showed up then dissapeared again.:(
They have a thread called led lab 2009 that is getting interesting.
Though I must say cdot has better archives and stickys.
I keep my photo albums there 'cause, so far, their server is rock solid 24/7.
No tacky ads of half naked girls bathing in phony buds either.:D
No reason to keep all your eggs in one forum.

Woops, drifted way off-topic in DH's thread.
Sorry 'bout that, DH.

Been sending folks here when they ask about DIY.
If I get enough requests I'll re-start the DIY part over there and use the photo album as the "sing along".

Aloha
Weezard

[headshake]

i don't know much about icmag. i was thinking of getting some boards going. but that is just a thought. perhaps a site, with a nice DIY repository, including LED light arrays, etc. of course the weeze, dreaded and the like would be welcome and wanted!

sorry to ruin your thread dreaded! it's just that we have lost enough memebers and i just think why wash into the masses some where else. again, that's just me.

i just put it in here so i didn't start a new thread called "hey, i'm starting my own boards!"

it would be a collective and by no means a dictatorship!

sorry again!


-shake

[DreadedHermie]

This thread has written a suicide note!

And Weezard!

half naked girls bathing in phony buds

Dat girl bathed in buds ain't half naked. I b'lieve she all nekkid under dem buds. :thumbsup: (Not that I ever looked really close, kef, kef...) To think, I have you check my math! :D

Found the led lab 2009 thread, probably check in over there once the skirmishes settle down. :cool:

Shake, we can always be cyber-buddies. We can chat anywhere. Extracting somewhat technical stuff and writing it so people can understand it is mentally tasking, though. When the board crashes I lose flow of my thoughts, and often my typing is lost. I hate typing. Doing it twice is annoying. Weeze seems to feel the same. He has a more serious translation problem though, because he's got enough info to really make yer head spin if he spills too much at once. He's breaking the details into manageable chunks for those of us trying to come up to speed. Gotta go, :stoned: Later on, Hermie

[oldmac]

UH OH, the LEDers are not happy. Sure sign of change in the wind.

Hey DreadedHermie, Weezard, Headshake,

Please let me know what you decide to do or go. I just realized the other night that I'm not going to be here much longer. Things seem to have change around here, and not for the better. In looking around I saw Kanna was at IC and In my opinon he has alot of knowledge in the lighting and LED field. I know he rubbed some the wrong way but I found him to be extremely helpful.

I know I'm going to need more help when I build my next LED/hybred light.

The very reason I came here last year, was that the LED DIY threads where here. The thread started by Physicsnole has more info and idea exchanges then any I've ever seen. Unfortunately impossible to wade thru and find anything there anymore. or well.

What would Willie do?

[Dutch Pimp]

No reason to jump ship. Two sites are better than one. Just spread out.

(I like to think of it, like dating two women at same time...:rolleyes:...)

[headshake]

i hear all you guys, i don't want to abondon ship either. but this place is just getting out of control. with the lost post that you guys mention. stuff like that. i think it could be completely more organized. tons of stuff. sorry, i'm not in a very eloquent mood right now.

i started some boards (free at the moment) if anyone is interested. it is minimal, but it's up to everyone what sections we need, etc. it should be a community effort. need mods and the like.


-shake

[Weezard]

No reason to jump ship. Two sites are better than one. Just spread out.

(I like to think of it, like dating two women at same time...:rolleyes:...)

That's what many of us have been doing.
I was not planning to "jump ship".
Not until it sinks again anyway.;)
I was just 'splainin' why I don't keep an album here.
I actually like cdot better than IC, just can't trust it.

One foot inna lifeboat.
Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

Thanks for the tip on the Bionic cam / eyeclops thing. You were another one of the folks I was afraid I'd never "see" again when Cdot was down for so long.

Right before the crash, you posted about these things (thread prolly poofed away) and I found one for like $25 shipped. Never got a chance to thank you. :hippy:

All I have is crappy bagseed, but looky:
[attachment=o217435]

[attachment=o217436]

[attachment=o217437]

[attachment=o217438]

[attachment=o217439]

Takes a few tries to get a clear shot, but for 25 bux, fun toy! :thumbsup:

[headshake]

i meant that i started looking. lol. caught it too late to edit. my bad.


-shake

[DreadedHermie]

Good to see you, too, oldmac. I remember before the crash you were trying to explain how you'd overdriven some fluoro tubes (T5HO's, I think) but people kept interrupting you to tell you it wouldn't work (despite the fact that it seemed to have worked well for you already....). :wtf:

[oldmac]

(I like to think of it, like dating two women at same time...:rolleyes:...)

Yeah Dutch Pimp,

That's what I like about you young guys, always thinking big.
Unfortunately for some old guys like me, an analogy like that is just a distant memory. I seem to fit more what Willie Nelson said on his 75 birthday (a year or two ago)...."it's official, I've outlived my dick".

But a fine idea, none the less.

[oldmac]

Good to see you, too, oldmac. I remember before the crash you were trying to explain how you'd overdriven some fluoro tubes (T5HO's, I think) but people kept interrupting you to tell you it wouldn't work (despite the fact that it seemed to have worked well for you already....). :wtf:

Hello DreadedHermie,

Yup, overdriven T5's don't work I've been told. Led's don't work I've been told. Growing small plants don't work. Oh yeah, UVB don't work. That's what I like about these boards, there's always someone who knows it all, hehe.

C.dot has been a great source of LED info and DIY people. It is probably my first interest, second is aero/fog- ponics and there is not enough of that here.

Plus apparently my grow style; growing using lots of little plants vs. growing a few large shrubs, rub people the wrong way. Seems many here want to impose the US Federal gov't guide line of 100+ "plants" equals a "federal crime"....rather then fight the draconian laws. I guess they be happy with the "Cali" model of "compassionate" care, (good grief).

Oh well, on more pleasant things, I really love those bud close up pictures!
Trichomes-R-us. Nice stuff.

[DreadedHermie]

Unfortunately for some old guys like me, an analogy like that is just a distant memory.

As I've aged I've gotten stronger! :thumbsup:

When I was a young man, when I got an erection, I couldn't bend it.

Now I can! :wtf:

[Weezard]

As I've aged I've gotten stronger! :thumbsup:

When I was a young man, when I got an erection, I couldn't bend it.

Now I can! :wtf:

Chin up?!

I'm guessing, if it holds his chin up, he can't complain.

Weeze

[Dutch Pimp]

"The older, the violin...the sweeter the music"....:thumbsup:-'Gus McCray (Lonesome Dove)

[Weezard]

"The older, the violin...the sweeter the music"....:thumbsup:-'Gus McCray (Lonesome Dove)

Sometimes.

lessin' Froggy can no longer "plunk his magic twanger".:D

(From the Froggy the frog and Midnight the cat hosting, "Buster Brown Show".
1950s BnW kinescope.)

Very old Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

There's lotsa folksy truisms that use this formula. They seem like ratios, now that I look at 'em:

"Older" is to "violin" as "sweeter" is to "music". Expressed algebraically:

Older . . . . . . Sweeter
_______ = _________

Violin . . . . . . Music


You could even solve for an unknown term, if you know how to divide by violins. :eek:

Sorry. Mrs. Hermie rolled me a fatty. Guess the leds are working okay... :smokin:

[DreadedHermie]

[attachment=o217503]

[attachment=o217504]

[attachment=o217505]

[attachment=o217506]

[attachment=o217507]

This is indica-ish bagseed from a real non-impressive, if somewhat relaxing and pleasant, bag. It takes forever to mature, even under HPS, which this girl lived under for awhile. (Some heat damage is still evident.) She spent the last month under LEDs only, 'cos I retired that friggin' light-emitting furnace of an HPS. No loss, the leds work better. If I had to try and finish this baby under HPS she'd be crispy before she was ripe.

[oldmac]

Wow DreadedHermie,

Your close-ups of the trichomes are so good that you don't need a microscope to see the color change! Very very nice.

Buds' look good too, sometimes a bagseed bean find is a good thing.
Hope it tastes as good as it looks.

Here's a picture of a small (2 popcorn size) bud I knocked off last night while harvesting some plants. Just can't get as close as you with my cheap camera.

[Weezard]

Wow DreadedHermie,

Your close-ups of the trichomes are so good that you don't need a microscope to see the color change! Very very nice.

Buds' look good too, sometimes a bagseed bean find is a good thing.
Hope it tastes as good as it looks.

Here's a picture of a small (2 popcorn size) bud I knocked off last night while harvesting some plants. Just can't get as close as you with my cheap camera.

Sweet bud, O.M.
You might be able to use that lens on your "brownie".

('Fore you lot get all scatalogical, Brownie is what we called cheap camera back in the day.)

Heck of a deal, D. H.!
$25 w/shipping?:thumbsup:
Gotta get one of those Eyeclops thingees.
Best my Fuji can do is;
[attachment=o217532]

[attachment=o217533]

So, where do we find this inexpensive magic, DH?

Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

There's an eBay auction that ends 3 hours from now. It's at $11.99 with free shipping (for a new one).

I got mine through Amazon.com, was $19.95 plus cheap shipping. There's a lot for sale there, also, but at the moment the best deal looks like ~ $28 + shipping.

Shop around, they made a zillion of 'em and after people get bored looking at bugs, hair, and the pores in their own skin they dump 'em, so supply currently exceeds demand. That manufacturer makes an IR night-vision headset, too. Maybe useful for the folks that need to visit their girls "after curfew."

The shots I took are all at 100X. I can't hold steady at the higher magnifications, but 100X does fine, better than my 30X German-made jeweler's loupe. They shoot movies, too, and come with a USB jump drive, FWIW. Super-short depth-of-field, though.

Weezard and oldmac, that is both some frosty stuff! Shots at 100X would be spectacular, I'm sure! :hippy:

[DreadedHermie]

Looks like this distributor (manufacturer?) ships individual "samples" for $85 --for a 50W unit, which seems to have identical specs to the 100W except for # of emitters (?)-- Weezard, I wonder if that's the explanation for the low-current-draw unit your friend from the other board acquired.

100W singles for $135.

Lessee here: 301 units @ $75 = 22,575.

Sell 301 units @ $229 (frequent eBay price, let's "forget to mention" that these are the 50W version) = 68,929.

Pretty fair ROI, considering how other investments are doing these days. No wonder there's so many folks hawking these things. :pimp:


From their website:

Product Description
Output Power of lamp: 50 or 100W
Wide beam angle: 120
Rated Voltage range: 100-265V
LED bulb: 80 units 1.33W per unit
Light wavelength Blue: 450nm, red: 650nm (for growing only)
Ratio of Red and Blue light 8: 1 (we also could change the ratio according to your special requirements)
Dim R: 270mm, H: 80mm, Round style
AV. Life: 60000h
MOQ.: 10units
Master carton size 565*470*310=0.09stere
Retail packaging size 555*295*115=0.002stere
Warranty 1 year
N. W G. W 5.0KG/unit 5.5KG/unit
Sample prices of 50w FOB WUHAN: USD85.00
Prices (50-300units) of 50w FOB WUHAN: USD78.00
Prices (301-500units) of 50w FOB WUHAN: USD75.00

Sample prices of 100w FOB WUHAN: USD135.00
Prices (50-300units) of 100w FOB WUHAN: USD118.00
Prices (301-500units) of 100w FOB WUHAN: USD108.00

[Weezard]

Nice find DH!
Guess you'd better start da UFO thread ovah here.
You got da real skinny.:thumbsup:

I must add that I'm happier by the day with my knock off.
It's vegging da bejesus out of a WW clone!

[attachment=o217539]
Have to raise it every day.

Better than I expected.

I'd like to get a couple of their eval. units.
Do they want to see a re-sale number or will a nifty letterhead do it?

Greedy Weeze?
Well sure.
But more like freedom loving Weeze in dis case.
Got folks here dogging me to build lights for them.
I want to help 'em out, but it takes choke time to do it right.

Don't have a solid number on how much more "earth time I got so, I'm not keen on selling that much of it.
Creating a light is sheer joy. Making a second or third, from a pattern is just a J. O. B. to me.
A couple decent Evals would solve my present dilemma.

Aloha nui,
Wee Zard
(lookin' for someplace to squander his $250 anti-social in-security "stimulus" joke, um, check.):D

[MerryPrankstr]

DreadedHermie
This grow is to nail down some of the practical details of the use of the LEDs in growing.
Next one will be more "production" with more plants. I am toying with moving over to hydoponics or aeroponics, but the extra work and temperature requirements may be more than I want to deal with.

Weezard,
What kind of Fuji are you using?

I have a Nikon SLR w/lens that allows 1:1 macro shots, but I don't knowhow tha relates to "Nx" (e.g. 100x) power maginification. I hope to avoid using my microscope because finding a particular spot on a bud/plant is like looking through a straw in a mirror. Very frustrating considering my poor vision.

MP

[DreadedHermie]

Very frustrating considering my poor vision

MP, when I was a lad, my dad often warned me: "Herman, if you don't quit playing with yourself, you'll go blind!"

I always had to answer, "Dad, I'm over HERE!" :D


This eyeclops thing has a video out you can hook to a TV or other monitor. Haven't needed to use it, but you could scan your buds and watch it on the tube in real time (or record it as a movie).

And, like you, I've been pondering some 'ponics of some kind. Weezard's grows have got me interested in this DWC stuff. Looks like the proper combination of efficient growth and forgiving operation. Some form of aero is prolly state-of-the-art, but one little screw-up with timers, clogged nozzles, etc. and you're screwed in a hurry.

We could start a "Calling Weezard fer hep wit Bubba-ponics" thread. My potential problem is ambient temps of 77-78F. lights-off; up to 81-82F. lights-on. Don't know if I'd need a rez chiller for that. Might be a deal breaker for me. Weezard, what say you? Is my closet too warm for DWC?

[DreadedHermie]

The auction ended at $30.51 (free shipping). FYI, "what the market will bear." :cool: DH

[Weezard]

Weezard,
What kind of Fuji are you using?

Fuji finepix;
[attachment=o217578]
Pros; Nifty, compact, good zoom, decent macro, and less "lag" than most.
Cons? No viewfinder. LCD only. Almost worthless in sunlight.


I have a Nikon SLR w/lens that allows 1:1 macro shots, but I don't knowhow tha relates to "Nx" (e.g. 100x) power maginification. I hope to avoid using my microscope because finding a particular spot on a bud/plant is like looking through a straw in a mirror. Very frustrating considering my poor vision.

MP

I know sumpin' 'bout dat.
Will reply to DH regarding DWC if ya wanna follow along in da hymnal.:D.

Aloha,
Weezard

[Weezard]

And, like you, I've been pondering some 'ponics of some kind. Weezard's grows have got me interested in this DWC stuff. Looks like the proper combination of efficient growth and forgiving operation. Some form of aero is prolly state-of-the-art, but one little screw-up with timers, clogged nozzles, etc. and you're screwed in a hurry.

We could start a "Calling Weezard fer hep wit Bubba-ponics" thread. My potential problem is ambient temps of 77-78F. lights-off; up to 81-82F. lights-on. Don't know if I'd need a rez chiller for that. Might be a deal breaker for me. Weezard, what say you? Is my closet too warm for DWC?

Well, mine isn't and it can top 90F. at lunchtime.

I'm prolly not da best "go to guy" on dis.
Did I mention that I'm lazy?
I do not change my res. water for months.
I use no -zymes or -zomes or super- -booster, etc.

Just tap water, Gen Hydro nutes and occasional Phosphoric acid for PH adj.
Oh, and most important, I get away with all this by using lots of bubbles.
A decent air pump/airstone and an uninterruptable powersupply keeps everything very happy.
Here's my "learner" setup;
[attachment=o217581]

[attachment=o217579]

[attachment=o217580]

Ignore the water pump, I no longer use them, or timers.
Too easy for a stoner to screw-up.

Next, I'll get some pics of un-pickled peppers in dirt, coco, and DWC.
Of the 3 it's DWC for me.
Odd and rare that the laziest method gives the best results.
That's what sold me.
(It's not really off topic if ya led wit da 'ponic)
More to follow.

Regards,
[attachment=o217582]

[Dutch Pimp]

That's not a lizard!...it's a skink...I think?...:rastabanna:

[Weezard]

I t'ink da skink ran down da sink. an' lef' da 'zard behine.
Dat be gen-you-ine Hawaiian long tailed 'zard.
The madagascar geckos are crowding them out 'cause sticky toes work betta dan claws.
Gonna miss 'em when dey gone.

Howzit, banana man?

best,
Weeze

[Bubbleblower]

:silly: hope this is a good place to post this.

:smokin: want to build my own led set up and run a controlled experiment.
My plan is to use 1 blue, 1 red and 3 deep red 15W and 1 UV, 1 green and 1 amber 5W ledengins (:stoned: can order all that at Mouser) and also 10W far reds, but :S5: can't find a retailer for that anywhere.

:joint1:

[Weezard]

Aloha BB.

Get a 60W "party lamp" black light incandescent bulb from da K. or da W.
The UV is very long wave so is not really a "player" it also outputs great gobs of 730 nm.
Mo' betta an' mo' cheepa.

We we're just talkin' 'bout inviting DIY light builder into a going thread to post their builds.:hippy:
Ours are finished and it will take quite a while for results reports.

So we jus' been sittin' here onna stoop, swattin' flies an' swappin lies .
Would love to kibbitz your build.
Have at it. :cool:

E como mai, (welcome)

Wee Zard

[Weezard]

That Title got some attention, yah?
As promised, a photo show.;
[attachment=o217588]
Little guy, Fox Farm Ocean Forest.

[attachment=o217589]
Same age and kine grown in Coco

[attachment=o217590]
5 gallon DWC

And Oregano in Coco and FFOF;
[attachment=o217592]

Beats 3000 words or so, yah?

These are the experiments I do to decide what works best for me.

Disclaimer;

I'm not sellin, advocating, or prostheletizing, anything.
(Though I have been known to make suggestions.)
Your milage may, (and probably will), vary.
Why do I say that?
'cause I may just be da luckiest guy I evah met.

Have whatever kine day suits yer fancy,
[attachment=o217591]

[DreadedHermie]

You gotta pair o' swimtrunks I can borrow? I feel like gettin' wet! :thumbsup:

[Weezard]

You gotta pair o' swimtrunks I can borrow? I feel like gettin' wet! :thumbsup:

Zards no wear swim trunks.:o
Tail no fit, brah.:thumbsup:

[attachment=o217593]

[MerryPrankstr]

In regards to the Fuji, I have a program called Genuine Fractals that does remarkable job of scaling photos, Google it and see what ya think. May allow you to see your trichs without more hardware. I have used it to to reduce pictures mainly, but others I know have used it successfully to enlarge as well. Any good camera with macro capabilities and at least 4MP should do the trick quite nicely. FUJI sensors are great IMHO, btw.

Well, I followed along with the DWC info and it is promising. Gonna keep a record of GR temp this current crop. The UPS makes it more "crash tolerant".

So I guess Ill do a search on bubba ponics and start doing some research.

Thanks for the start in the right direction.

MP

[oldmac]

There's an eBay auction that ends 3 hours from now. It's at $11.99 with free shipping (for a new one).

I got mine through Amazon.com, was $19.95 plus cheap shipping. There's a lot for sale there, also, but at the moment the best deal looks like ~ $28 + shipping.

Shop around, they made a zillion of 'em and after people get bored looking at bugs, hair, and the pores in their own skin they dump 'em, so supply currently exceeds demand. That manufacturer makes an IR night-vision headset, too. Maybe useful for the folks that need to visit their girls "after curfew."

The shots I took are all at 100X. I can't hold steady at the higher magnifications, but 100X does fine, better than my 30X German-made jeweler's loupe. They shoot movies, too, and come with a USB jump drive, FWIW. Super-short depth-of-field, though.

Weezard and oldmac, that is both some frosty stuff! Shots at 100X would be spectacular, I'm sure! :hippy:

Yup DH,

As soon as I have a few extra bucks, I gotta get one of those.
I have one of those $20 microscopes, that does the job when I can focus it and my eyes. This would be soooooo much easier. Nice idea.

Hey Weez,

I loved the pictures of your LED lit plants, very very colorfull!

Check out this pic of small girl under LED/T5 hybred. Hot colors.

[Weezard]

Well, I followed along with the DWC info and it is promising. Gonna keep a record of GR temp this current crop. The UPS makes it more "crash tolerant".

So I guess Ill do a search on bubba ponics and start doing some research.

Thanks for the start in the right direction.

MP

LMAO!
You'll prolly come up dry searching for bubba-ponics.
I made it up as a division of Carmine Cervical Industries .
Which is a wholly owned spinoff of the Hawaiian Inebriatti.

For real info on coco growing look up Puffzter.

Coco is kinda like semi-solid hydro.
Same nutes, same PH but it helps dirt guys make the jump.

Once you jump, though it's hard to go back.:thumbsup:

Have some fun,
Weeze

[Weezard]

O. M.,

That's one sweet "red-headed stepchile".:greenthumb:

She got a family tree, or is she a mutt, like me.

Tee hee,
Wee

[Bubbleblower]

Aloha BB.

Get a 60W "party lamp" black light incandescent bulb from da K. or da W.
The UV is very long wave so is not really a "player" it also outputs great gobs of 730 nm.
Mo' betta an' mo' cheepa.

We we're just talkin' 'bout inviting DIY light builder into a going thread to post their builds.:hippy:
Ours are finished and it will take quite a while for results reports.

So we jus' been sittin' here onna stoop, swattin' flies an' swappin lies .
Would love to kibbitz your build.
Have at it. :cool:

E como mai, (welcome)

Wee Zard

Mahalo:thumbsup:

I am afraid though that won't work in my scrog setup. Here (http://www.hg-hydroponics.co.uk/ekmps/shops/hydrogrow/images/highlander-inside-small(1).jpg) you can see what I will use for one test.
(don't visit that site; the prices are outrageous)

You understand what I try to achieve and I really need the far reds for this set up.

[Weezard]

Mahalo:thumbsup:

I am afraid though that won't work in my scrog setup. Here (http://www.hg-hydroponics.co.uk/ekmps/shops/hydrogrow/images/highlander-inside-small(1).jpg) you can see what I will use for one test.
(don't visit that site; the prices are outrageous)

You understand what I try to achieve and I really need the far reds for this set up.

Go for it!
Thing is. far red should be added just before, and for a short while after, lights out.
Depends on what you are trying to accomplish I guess.
So, What's your plan?

Aloha,
Weezard

[Bubbleblower]

Go for it!
Thing is. far red should be added just before, and for a short while after, lights out.
Depends on what you are trying to accomplish I guess.
So, What's your plan?

Aloha,
Weezard

What I want to accomplish is to grow weed inside that has the same quality as outside.
For that, I believe, I need the perfect spectrum (see image).
The phycoerythrin is what makes the nice cristals and serves as a light harvesting antenna.
Different energy results in different chemistry. I have no idea, but that must be right.

Many experiments have shown the so called Emerson effect adds about 25% to your harvest. To create that I want to leave the far reds on for 2 extra hours. If I can't find them I'll use a 70W HPS instead that will be switched on for 4 hours a day.
Of course I am not gonna give up so soon and I'll keep looking for far reds for at least 2 more weeks.

[DreadedHermie]

Where's Rhizome when ya need him?


For that, I believe, I need the perfect spectrum (see image).
If you like that spectral distribution just get yourself an HPS and be done with it. :thumbsup:

The phycoerythrin is what makes the nice cristals and serves as a light harvesting antenna.
Phycoerythrin is implicated in the light absorption of red algae, which is really hard to keep lit. :stoned: If you've got relevant data about phycoerythrin's role in trichome production, help a brother out and cite a reference. But don't ad lib, please. :cool:

Different energy results in different chemistry. I have no idea, but that must be right.
Well, that statement clears everything up. :D:

Many experiments have shown the so called Emerson effect adds about 25% to your harvest. To create that I want to leave the far reds on for 2 extra hours.
The Emerson Effect was described over 50 years ago. It describes how multiple wavelengths applied concurrently have a combined effect greater than the effect of the sum of the individual component wavelengths. The phenomenon I believe you're referring to is currently being called "martian nights," (red, get it?) and is being investigated by some knowledgeable folks on this board. Search that term and you may find what you're looking for. :hippy:

[Bubbleblower]

For that, I believe, I need the perfect spectrum (see image).

If you like that spectral distribution just get yourself an HPS and be done with it.

What I mean is it is not all red and blue that is important. Green for example is for 80% absorbed by the plant. I will base my spectrum on the results of this study: Fotosynthese-efficiency bij verschillende golflengten (www.narcis.info) (http://www.narcis.info/research/RecordID/OND1327214/Language/en/;jsessionid=mhkfhiyoqkp) that should improve McCree's old research in every aspect (not out yet). Most of the 175.000 scientific studies you can find there are available in English by the way.

I have worked with HPS for over 20 years now and know how that is.

The phycoerythrin is what makes the nice cristals and serves as a light harvesting antenna.

Phycoerythrin is implicated in the light absorption of red algae, which is really hard to keep lit. If you've got relevant data about phycoerythrin's role in trichome production, help a brother out and cite a reference. But don't ad lib, please.

Sorry, I'll think of that next time. Just like it isn't all about red and blue it isn't all about trichomes either. Phycoerythrin has a function and in algae that is of harvesting light; it transfers energy to chlorophylls.
Have you ever noticed when and how exactly you get the christals?

Different energy results in different chemistry. I have no idea, but that must be right.

Well, that statement clears everything up. :

If that isn't so at least explain why, I am here to learn.

Many experiments have shown the so called Emerson effect adds about 25% to your harvest. To create that I want to leave the far reds on for 2 extra hours.

The Emerson Effect was described over 50 years ago. It describes how multiple wavelengths applied concurrently have a combined effect greater than the effect of the sum of the individual component wavelengths. The phenomenon I believe you're referring to is currently being called "martian nights," (red, get it?) and is being investigated by some knowledgeable folks on this board. Search that term and you may find what you're looking for.

May be I used the words wrong, but without far reds you simply get 20% less yield. That is proven in so many studies I consider that common knowledge. If the Martian method adds another 25% I better try that too.




I found all the leds I need to build a 300 watt lamp.
Now I have to try to be patient :jointsmile::stoned::pimp::rastasmoke::smokin: and wait for that research that was supposed to be finished by now.

[Weezard]

Aloha BB,

300 Watts!

We would love to see the plan.
We're here to learn as well.
Everything we can.


How's the weather
in the
Nether-
lands.:D

:stoned:
Weezard

[MerryPrankstr]

I'd be interested too.
I'm also leaning to the "more full spectrum" side of LEDs and 300w is where I'd begin to consider a home brew lamp.

Hey, should we start a new thread?

MP

[headshake]

lol, didn't i say something about starting a new thread?


-shake

[MerryPrankstr]

Shake,
You sure did!
They say short term memory is the first to go.

MP

[headshake]

right! lol. you guys have tons of knowledge and it would be awesome to put it all in one place. i would love to build an LED array.

-shake

[DreadedHermie]

Shake, if you've got a soldering gun (or pencil) and think you could handle replacing a pickup in my granddaughter's "Hello Kitty" Stratocaster, we can show ya how to build a light. It's that easy. That's the purpose of this thread! :rastasmoke:

[headshake]

i do have a soldering iron! and i'm pretty sure i could fix it!

i know that's the purpose of this thread, but a thread is not always the best place to have said information. or at least the information should be contained in one post within a thread!

-shake

[oldmac]

Hello Headshake,

I agree it would be nice to have dedicated threads to certian projects and/or ideas. You should hear me cursing up a storm when I'm trying to wade thru like 70 pages of posts on the original Physicsnole thread, looking for something I'm sure I read there. Geeez what a waste of time.

BTW, I posted a couple of more pics of the hybred LED/T5, and included at least one of the ballast itself.(in an album on the other site) Tommrow, right before the lights go out I'm going to remove it so I can respace 2 of the floros better. I'll take some more pics then of just the T5 frame.

[DreadedHermie]

Been followin' the pics. Tell me, does it make any sense to overdrive regular T8 shoplights?

And Shake, the biggest problem with doing a straight-through tutorial on led light construction is you have to mount and measure your light sources (IMO) in order to decide the best way to power them.

So a tutorial, for a well designed light would go something like, "If your emitters match within .1Vf, do this....if they're not well matched, here are your options....." :wtf:

The whole thing becomes hypothetical and convoluted and (to me) kinda complicated. It's just way easier to mount 'em up and see whatcha got, then pick / design your drivers. :thumbsup:

And, I tried writing some tutorial-type stuff and it was a total buzz-kill. :rastasmoke:

Hermie

[headshake]

i got ya hermie! i can understand that. and i defintely don't want anyone to kill their buzz! i'm reading up more and more on it. i'll get around to actually buying some stuff and putting a small one together. got to get an HPS before i build a big one!

i've just go so many damn projects going on. and not enough funds to go around. i'm slowly knocking them out one by one though.

oldmac, thanks. visual aids always get the juices going.

off to read up more on LEDs.


-shake

[oldmac]

Been followin' the pics. Tell me, does it make any sense to overdrive regular T8 shoplights?

Hermie

Hey Hermie,

Probably not. The cheapest way would be to double the T8s, unless you have a T8 fixture that fits your space perfectly and want more umph. (to use the techmnical term). It's the same with T5s, you can get the same output from a 8-light HO as a 4-light VHO. The cost of the IceCap ballast is about $160 for the big one model 660, a slightly smaller one model 430 is abt $140.
What they will handle is base on max lamp lenght and number of lamps.

The 660 does:
2 lamps 16'max or 2x8',6',5',3' or 2'
3 lamps 15'max or 3x5',4' or 3'
4 lamps 16'max or 4x4',3' or 2'

The advantage is seen best with the aquarium guys, hood is say 4' long but depth is problem. You can get the lumens of a 8 bulb into 4, plus save a little wattage, but lose a little bulb life.

I chose to use them in a hybred light 'cause there was not enough room to have more then 4 bulbs plus the LEDs in the middle.

[DreadedHermie]

Man, Icecap makes some other cool stuff, I see. T5 reflectors, variable speed fans, etc. NOT CHEEP. Looks top notch, though.


unless you have a T8 fixture that fits your space perfectly and want more umph.

Hilarious. I used that same technical term earlier myself. Talkin' 'bout lights, too (what else? ;)) And, actually, I do know a place where a couple T8 shoplights fit quite nicely ;). And punching through a canopy seems similar to pushing through some aquarium water, umph-wise.

Seems like if you cranked up a T8 it'd get more like a T5HO in terms of "bite." I don't get how these ballasts work, though. Says they'll drive combinations of different bulbs. How does each bulb know when to say "when" when guzzling down electricity? How many watts will a IC660 drive a 32W 4' NO T8 at? (Well, 4 of 'em, is the real question...) I'd think if I could get 4 regular old shoplights to burn 55W each, I'd be all over this. (Unless the heat is oppressive.)

Thanks! :stoned:

[oldmac]

Yup, IceCap makes some nice stuff. I have the T5 reflectors, very effective, but used them on my cloner lights. I need to get another set of 4 for the hybred setup, using cheap ones on that for the time being and they suck. (another tech term)

Yesterday I worked on the hybred frame, to move the inner bulbs outward. I broke one of the 2700K bulbs, found out they are currently "irreplaceable" for the time being.(only one source; out of stock) Have a spare 6500K, but could not find it. Had to go to HomeDump to get one, the only 4' T5 bulb they had was an Normal Output (28w) Alto (3500K) got two. Now I know the IceCap ballast will drive these to 85watts, but was worried that if I used 2-NOs and 2-HOs, would they play well together. No problem, the ballast just drives them all to the max.

On T8s, you may be able to use the smaller 430 model to do 4 lamps. Somewhere I have the total wattage each model can handle, I'll look thru some of my papers and notes. I think I also have the watt levels you can get from T8 and T12s somewhere.

[oldmac]

Calling out to Weezard.....

If you have a chance, stop by a thread by Horsemanrocks "HID & LED" in the indoor growig section. Maybe you can offer an idea or two.

[ledtime]

Weezard,

I have been following your posts for quite sometime now. I am simply fascinated by LED grow light technology. You've had some time to play, and I have a manufacturer who will let me truly play with the array and let me put in whatever LED's I wish. I am however limited to the 1W LED's.

I'm sure you've seen all of the chinese manufactured lights. I've seen the lights from this manufacturer tested and these LED's DO put out at the advertised wavelengths. :thumbsup:

The market is currently flooded with "Tri-Band" lights of course meaning they are putting in orange with the red and blue. Is the orange worth it?:wtf:

This manufacturer has the capability to put 735nm LED's into the array for me.

What I don't know is how many of each type of LED to put in the array. I'm tinkering with their 119 LED array. I figured you would know what the optimal wavelengths were as DH's light is hauling ass with his grow from the pictures I saw in another thread. :rastabanna:

How would you suggest I break up that 119 light option? Majority 660nm, a little 640nm? Some 462nm? and then some 735nm? Again the question is in what ratio?

I'm also getting an all blue UFO for veg. What nm LED should I use for that?

The pricing is unbeatable for my test models. I can even get him to make me just and all 735nm light bulb in place of the party light. But again, I'm not sure how many LED's would be needed to match the output of the party bulb.

Any light you can shine on this would be greatly appreciated. I truly respect the fact that you build all of your stuff on a budget and it blows away lights that people spend thousands of dollars on. And you sense of humor is great....I've had many laughs from your posts!:D

[Weezard]

Weezard,

I have been following your posts for quite sometime now. I am simply fascinated by LED grow light technology. You've had some time to play, and I have a manufacturer who will let me truly play with the array and let me put in whatever LED's I wish. I am however limited to the 1W LED's.

I'm sure you've seen all of the chinese manufactured lights. I've seen the lights from this manufacturer tested and these LED's DO put out at the advertised wavelengths. :thumbsup:

The market is currently flooded with "Tri-Band" lights of course meaning they are putting in orange with the red and blue. Is the orange worth it?:wtf:

In my humble opinion, no.
Should do as well or mo' betta adding the same number of 660nm. leds.
I think the tri-band lights are based on a false assumption.
Somebody looked at relative bud quality 'tween HPS and low-power led grow.
They thought, as I did, what does the HPS have that the leds do not have?
Most obvious is that large spike of yellow/amber energy.
I did a side by side test. 625nm. vs. 660 nm.
Then I did a blended light test with both wavelengths.
All 660 outshines the blend.:)

So, back to thinking mode.
HPS comes up slow and fades out slow. So there is a spectral shift towards IR as it cools off.

Hmmm.
In the wild, we have a shift to red as the blue light scatters in the evening. After sundown we still have incoming energy in far red and infra red.
That's why I'm playing with the 730nm. at lights out.
I've read all about the phytochrome conversion and 730:660 role in it's conversion.
Phytochrome is clearly not the whole story here, just another clue.
But, I think the application of 730 nm. is key.

(We also get some 730 nm. in the morning pre-sunrise. Yet another avenue of interest)

This manufacturer has the capability to put 735nm LED's into the array for me.

I doubt that adding some 730nm, leds to the mix and turning them on and off with the same timer as the rest will be very useful.
But, kicking them in 10 minutes before lights-out and running them for 20 minutes after, just might be, I intend to find out.
If not? we all learned something.:cool:


What I don't know is how many of each type of LED to put in the array. I'm tinkering with their 119 LED array. I figured you would know what the optimal wavelengths were as DH's light is hauling ass with his grow from the pictures I saw in another thread. :rastabanna:

That's not all about the light, yah?
Hermie's got a :greenthumb:.

How would you suggest I break up that 119 light option? Majority 660nm,

Yes

a little 640nm?

Not so much.

Some 462nm?

Wouldn't hurt.:D

and then some 735nm?

See above.

Again the question is in what ratio?

If you are stuck with a fixed ratio array there will be compromises.
The R:B ratio will depend on your goals.
Got limited headroom? More blue.
Last few weeks of budding? More red.
4:1 seems to be a good "in-between" ratio.
My large array runs all-ahead-full at 5:1.
I can adjust the red downwards to play with the ratio.
Still fiddling with that.
Got more hints than conclusions.

The next exploration will be a variable ratio vs. time.
5:1 in the morning and evening with a slow ramp to bring the blue up for a 3.5:1 at noon then have it fade back to 5:1 in the evening. A little burst of 730 nm. at the "off n onnie" transitions and I'm hoping we can outdo HPS for half the cost in power,

I'm also getting an all blue UFO for veg. What nm LED should I use for that?

Not sure that monochrome a good idea.
Plants can and do convert wavelengths to something that chlorophyl can use.
But, TANSTAAFL.
I have never tried growing with a single color, so I won't say it can't be done well.
It just does not seem right to me, so I'll let other folks experiment with that.
That said, I'd shoot for a mix of the 2 blue peaks in the absorbtion curve.

The pricing is unbeatable for my test models.

Hmm, 'bout $135 ?

I can even get him to make me just and all 735nm light bulb in place of the party light. But again, I'm not sure how many LED's would be needed to match the output of the party bulb.

Nor am I. Seems to be a toggle with a "tipping point"
Still :weedpoke:.

Any light you can shine on this
A man after my own heart.:D
would be greatly appreciated. I truly respect the fact that you build all of your stuff on a budget and it blows away lights that people spend thousands of dollars on. And you sense of humor is great....I've had many laughs from your posts!:D

Just had a good chuckle from yours, thanks.

More important you nudged the on switch to me "thinker".
(Just toss me a concept and I'll amuse myself for months.)

I expect we'll be learning choke from your efforts.
Welcome aboard m8!

Regards,
Weezard

[ledtime]

Thank you so much for your input. This stuff has really been making my brain work overtime!

I will have a fixed ratio array, but at the same time I will have two led lights.

The only reason I was going to tinker with the all blue veg light is because others who have say that it takes away a lot of the stretch, and the plants still veg just fine. (So they say...I haven't personally tested this)

Trying to find the missing link here is fun. Assuming that the light is the only variable in the equation, what is it that HPS provides that LED is missing? We know from studies which wavelengths are the most beneficial. I bet the far-red is the key. Only time will tell.

So you think 5:1 is the optimal ratio?

Should I split up the blues in the "red" panel using two wavelengths? If so which nm blues should I use?

I like testing the unknown. Collectively, with many people here the most efficient and productive way within our current limits can be found.:thumbsup:

[Weezard]

"So you think 5:1 is the optimal ratio?

Don't know about optimal, but I think 5:1 is a little red heavy for veg.
I'm running at 4:1 in the bloomery trying to limit stretch.

Should I split up the blues in the "red" panel using two wavelengths? If so which nm blues should I use? "

These should help you decide.

[attachment=o218348]

[attachment=o218349]

[attachment=o218350]

[attachment=o218351]

So, whuddaya think?

Aloha,
Weezard

[ledtime]

"So you think 5:1 is the optimal ratio?

Don't know about optimal, but I think 5:1 is a little red heavy for veg.

I was referring to the flowering light. I should have been more specific. I want to have a seperate light for veg. But should I still put in some 430nm blues along with the 452nm blues in the flowering light?
I'm running at 4:1 in the bloomery trying to limit stretch.



Should I split up the blues in the "red" panel using two wavelengths? If so which nm blues should I use? "

So, whuddaya think?

I'm thinkin I need to peg the 430 and 452 in the blue light. But more 452 than 430. :) But does the plant use any red light at all for the veg stage? From the research I've done it's mostly the blues that contribute to the growth in that period.

Aloha,
Weezard

It's nice to discuss this with someone....so far it's been all solo for me. I completely followed your thread with the build of the light, but when looking at the cost to do it that way with the 15W'ers, it was more cost effective my way. Though I won't get the flexibility that you have. Give and take right?

On the funnier side of things...just read this. It might be old but a new one to me:

There once was a bud named B.C.
He grew on a 7 foot tree
Till one day I plucked him
Rolled him & smoked him
And now I can barely see! :jointsmile:

[Weezard]

is something at which you can't sneeze.
He gets toked-up most nights.
Den he reads, an he writes.
While his babies grow bigger dan trees.

Well, a 'zard can dream, yah?:D

A grew once, some dank in Hawaii
with about 20 percent THC.
I grew dem in beds
an' I lit dem wit' leds.
Din't need no G.D. UVb!

Sometime it jus' jumps out my fingertip, sorry.:o

Wee Zard