Calling out to Weezard for LED advice [Archive] - Page 2 - Green Grass Forums

View Full Version : Calling out to Weezard for LED advice

Pages : 1 [2] 3

ledtime

05-22-2009, 12:58 AM

Weezard

05-22-2009, 01:30 AM

It's been a lonnnnnng day and that was just what I needed! :S2:

I'm sitting here looking at charts and jotting down wavelengths. I have to let the manufacturer know tomorrow how I'd like him to make the two lights for me.

I'll try getting the 90W UFO light with the mixture of the blues using the absorbtion peaks you've shown me in those charts. Let's see how the plants like it with just blues for veg.

Excellent! I'm curious about the blue peaks but 430 nm. leds appear to be a rare beast. At least they were last year.:)
And I love a well thought out experiment.

For the flowering light I'm going to load up on the 660's per your advice. Though, with me using the 1W LED's as opposed to the 15W ones that you use is that ratio still alright?

Wish I knew that as a certainty.
Since the 15W emitters are actually 4. 5 Watt dies on a single substrate, it would seem that the ratio holds.

Or, should I use more red and less blue since they are weaker lights? More like an 8:1 ratio because of their weakness? (they bow down and cry in the presence of your lights!) :D

Pshaw! "Many hands make light work".
Just keep yours closer to the canopy.
And if you cut it to 8:1 you may have more stretch than you want.

Your thoughts?

Oh, no, brah!
You nevah wanna say dat to an ADD.:tin foil hat:
("They echo and they swell, down from Berkely to Carmel")
Betta you re-phrase dat or we be here all night.;)

I only half kiddin' 'bout dat.
My brain is "on the loose wig alla time".:jointsmile:

But, thanks for asking.:D

Aloha,
Weeze

LushBuddy

05-22-2009, 06:48 AM

Hi, I've been following this thread for a bit and happened upon this:

LEDs used to produced plant antioxidants - UPI.com (http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/05/21/LEDs-used-to-produced-plant-antioxidants/UPI-95931242916491/)

Hope this isn't too off topic - I wasn't sure where to post. In any case, you can just check google news for "UVB led lettuce" and you'll see there are a few different news outlets showing interest.

I asked for a quote on Seoul's Optodevice 280nm LEDs a while back and all I can remember of the experience now is the sound of my jaw hitting the floor. I think that reptile lights offer a more affordable alternative - that is, if they work as well as the aforementioned LEDs. I'm not aware of any other UVB sources. Even incandescent bulbs appear to produce minimal UVB according to these sources:

No UVB from tungsten filament incandescent lamps (http://www.anapsid.org/neodym.html)

http://www.flukerfarms.com/PDFs/Lightbulb-FAQs.pdf

I recognize that we're not trying to grow lettuce here (it's tomatoes, right?). Regardless, the theory that resin is, in part, a defense against solar UVB radiation lends plausibility to the supposed benefits of UVB.

Thanks to everybody who has been posting. I'll be sure to contribute more once I've started work on my own LED arrays.

ledtime

05-23-2009, 07:33 PM

W,

I was expecting a nice check to come in the mail yesterday but it probably won't come until Monday....SOOOOO, that leaves me with this weekend to make my final decision on how I'd like to setup these lights.

You use lenses to concentrate your lights for better penetration do you not? That's probably why you get such great results. I'm trying to figure out how much power I really need.

If using a DR100 40"x40"x72" to grow in and a DWC setup. What do you think of three five gallon buckets, one plant per bucket in that size space?

The main light for veg would be the 90W UFO type, and the main light for flowering would be a 120W model.

I'm going to try the 90W version with just the blue like I mentioned before as it seems to be working for others. If it doesn't work I'll have the 120W light I could use.

I just hope the 120W with the party bulbs for the far red will be enough for that size area.

Your opinion?

Weezard

05-23-2009, 09:20 PM

W,

...
You use lenses to concentrate your lights for better penetration do you not?

Yes, on the 5W emitters. No on the 15W., so far.
I am playin' with some lenses but they contain too much heat for the big guys. Looking for some tiny parabolic reflectors to use instead of lenses for the next flowering.
Might end up making my own out of 4mil Mylar cones.

That's probably why you get such great results. I'm trying to figure out how much power I really need.

Aren't we all?:)

If using a DR100 40"x40"x72" to grow in and a DWC setup. What do you think of three five gallon buckets, one plant per bucket in that size space?

IMO ya can't beat 5g. DWC one plant per bucket. (You've been reading:thumbsup:)

The main light for veg would be the 90W UFO type, and the main light for flowering would be a 120W model.

I'm going to try the 90W version with just the blue like I mentioned before as it seems to be working for others. If it doesn't work I'll have the 120W light I could use.

I just hope the 120W with the party bulbs for the far red will be enough for that size area.

Your opinion?

'bout perfect for the space if ya wan't big plants.
Though you might as well chop the bottom branches off.

Even with lensing they won't yield much.

Old Mac pointed out the advantage of "lollipopping" multiple clones over harvesting top buds from trees. So, this next run will be a clone SOG.
Did a scrog on da last one. Too much work.
If 8 to 10 short girls outproduce 3 tall ones, I'm thinking about layering my tiny 8' high room into 2. 4' high rooms and going all coco. But, that's just da lazy in me. I don't really need MORE meds. But I can't stop,:weedpoke:. It is my nature.

I'm stoked about your 90W. "dual blue" vegger!
It looks promising.:cool:

Unka Sam "stimulated" me with $250, den told me I had ta spend it right away or pay taxes on it.:wtf::D
Imagine dat.
Da feds supporting medical-MJ. with my share of the National debt?:jointsmile:
How berry round and :cool: is dat?
Will wonders never cease?:upsidedow

Aloha,
Weezard

oldmac

05-23-2009, 09:35 PM

Well.......not exactly "lollipoppin", I try to do it without the stick part.

Here's a 10" example, when finished slightly taller and much fatter.:thumbsup:

Weezard

05-23-2009, 09:42 PM

WOOF!
Kudos, Brah.
Dat be ONO!

(so good it broke da mout')

Weeze:jointsmile:

headshake

05-23-2009, 09:44 PM

mac, are you just letting them get roots and then flowering?

-shake

DreadedHermie

05-23-2009, 09:46 PM

All meat and no potatoes! :D

ledtime

05-24-2009, 12:51 AM

Wow Old Mac...that is one stout lady you have there! :thumbsup:

The dual blue light should be interesting. I'm just concerned with the output of the flowering light. I would be MUCH more comfortable with a true high powered LED light, but I don't have the tools to really do it right. I would make DH feel good with how many LEDs I could burn up...and there aren't that many to go around!

So weez, you think three is a good limit for buckets in that size space? I was thinking four would be a bit much if they get bushy....

oldmac

05-24-2009, 02:38 AM

mac, are you just letting them get roots and then flowering?

-shake

Roots??? darn I knew I forgot something. Yup Shake that's one that as soon as it showed roots (1/2"?) it was poted and placed in the bloom room @ 12/12. You know that growth spurt (2-3times original size) that happens when they go to flower, it happens below ground also. This was a cutting from a plant 3 weeks into flower, that was grown from fem seeds (NLXjackherer and NLxhawian) normally used outdoors that grows 7-9 ft tall. Indoors I grew it 3' in a 4" square pot (just to prove it would grow even if rootbound).

That plant actually shoud be in a 4"square pot, with 9pots/sqft and 144 per 4'x4' area. The pictured plant finished at 4.5grams dried and manicured. With a little fine tuning it could go 7-8 grams. I know it don't sound like much per plant...but do the math. It's all a numbers game.

oldmac

05-24-2009, 02:46 AM

Hello ledtime,

In this dirt grow I'm envolved in, I use blue light over my cloner and seedlings. I get it by using a super actinic white T5 HO, first few days that bulb only then 6500K T5s are added. Found it cheaper and easier then LEDs in this case, but i'm loking forward to seeing what you get with an all blue LED setup.

headshake

05-24-2009, 02:47 AM

that makes perfect sense to me oldmac! i mean don't get me wrong, it would be nice to grow a monster bush, but it just doesn't make a bunch of sense. unless outdoors of course.

it's kinda like growing an AF strain minus the ruderail genetics (which is obviously good!). i think next grow round i'll put them into flower when they are wee lasses and see what happens.

they don't give you any problems in those 4" pots?

-shake

oldmac

05-24-2009, 03:00 AM

Hi, I've been following this thread for a bit and happened upon this:

LEDs used to produced plant antioxidants - UPI.com (http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/05/21/LEDs-used-to-produced-plant-antioxidants/UPI-95931242916491/)

Hope this isn't too off topic - I wasn't sure where to post. In any case, you can just check google news for "UVB led lettuce" and you'll see there are a few different news outlets showing interest.

I recognize that we're not trying to grow lettuce here (it's tomatoes, right?). Regardless, the theory that resin is, in part, a defense against solar UVB radiation lends plausibility to the supposed benefits of UVB.

Thanks to everybody who has been posting. I'll be sure to contribute more once I've started work on my own LED arrays.

Hello LushBuddy, and welcome to the Cdot boards.

Your first post is a winner, at least with me. Thanks for the link to the news story "UVB LED lettuce", seems to indicate a positive result of some added UVB. Who'da thunk!

HEY WEEZE, I hope you read this....to your plants so they know what theys suppose to do when they see uvb. lol
(Hey it's the main stream media, I don't trust them anyhow)

DreadedHermie

05-24-2009, 03:28 AM

Hello LushBuddy, and welcome to the Cdot boards.

Your first post is a winner, at least with me.

I gotta agree. The author of the paper has some other credible looking research out. I want to check some of that, and, of course, all these results are specie / strain specific. But at least he mentioned a quantified flux density at the plant surface. Like 10 micro-quadroons per square hyper-freckle or suppin'. :i feel stupid: At least it suggests a starting value for similar experiments with other plants. :weedpoke: Of course, he may be secretly on the take from the Albacore lobby. They are everywhere. :tin foil hat:

I get it by using a super actinic white T5 HO

Mac, some of those actinic tubes look like they're covering royal blue wavelengths. You thought of this already, yes?

oldmac

05-24-2009, 03:30 AM

they don't give you any problems in those 4" pots?
-shake

A 4" pot is plenty for SOG with a less then 18" plant, it's about maxium density you can get.
The original plants grown from seed in the 4" pots where origninally going to be transpland to 6" rds, but my partner got all kinds of bent out of shape when we didn't transplant on time. So just to prove a point, I left them in the 4"pots and I showed him what would happen when it got rootbound
.....nothing, it just kept growing and budding.
We are feeding chemical nutrients, the plant really doesn't need lots of roots as long as the ones it has gets good nutrition and PH. I probably gave up some wgt per plant with that stunt, but now he knows better. (Main pain in the ass with that size pot, plant needs feeding everyday, pots dry out too fast. Also when they are dry and light, the plants like to fall over, I don't reccomend growing that large in that small a pot, but it can be done.
I also took those same 3' plants and harvested the top 1' and left the bottoms to fatten up another 10 days. (Partner thought you can't top that much, without the rest of the plant just going into shock and shutting down). Plants instead concentrated on fattening up it's lower buds. He has come around to my way of thinking.

I love the line "let's replicate nature" indoors. Thanks anyway, I like to think I can get the plants to do things they would never do in nature, for my advantage.

oldmac

05-24-2009, 04:01 AM

Hi Hermie,

I went the actinic white route years ago after taking my first horticuture course in college. (oldest in my class) We studied the need for certian wavelenths of light, at various times of growth. Besides the need for blue light to stimulate hormones related to the roots it was my first introduction to the need of abt 660nm for photosyntheis but also the need of 730nm far red. Learned a bunch of other usefull stuff, like willow water for clonning.

Kinda led me down the slippery slope of LEDs.
The idea to use a actinic florescent bulb came from a glasshouse operator in my area, that I spoke to about his asexual propagation via cuttings (see what they learned me). It's what he was using and I adopted.

SIDE NOTE: I recently found out you can't mix T5 HO bulbs with NO bulbs in an ice cap ballast set up. You can run all NO or all HO but not a mix of both, if you expect the NOs to last more then 12hours. lol Live/learn.

pis of actinic in action. Royal blue is a good thing, I hope.

headshake

05-24-2009, 04:22 AM

right oldmac! isn't that the whole point of this? to make the baddest ladies on the planet. it's no different than cross-breeding for hybrid vigor or mulitple desireable traits.

we are trying to push the envelope. to take cannabis to where it's neve gone before......outerspace! j/k about the last part!

thanks for all of the wonderful info!

-shake

ledtime

05-25-2009, 03:57 PM

Weez,

I have been looking for ten minutes and can't find your results of when you dismantled the UFO.

I've got this manufacturer in China (one of a thousand I'm sure) that is making these things. They can make their own LED's to exact specs. Which is how I'm able to get my dual blue UFO made.

I asked what the current draw was and he said:

When the voltage is AC120V, the current is :
90w/120V=0.75A (90W UFO) 120w/120V=1A (120W Rectangle)
When the voltage is AC220V, the current is : 90w/220V=0.41A (90W UFO) 120w/220V=0.55A (120W Rectangle)

The lamp current will be in different voltage stye(120V/220V), and the lamp actual current will be a little fluctuated from figures above.

What other information should I get from this manufacturer to be sure I'm getting a quality product? If you can shoot me an email at [email protected] I'll forward you the coorespondence that I've had with them. Maybe with a little of your guidance we can get them to produce a pretty decent light for a lower cost.

Should I be concerned that they make their own LED's?

ttys,
L

Weezard

05-25-2009, 10:54 PM

There were no photos to find.
I just opened the pup and described the innards to Hermie.
Did not bother to take and post photos because there is just not that much to see.

3 small black boxes. 3 small fans
The box that powers the fans, is prolly an unregulated 12Vdc supply.
The other two drive the red and blue series strings of leds.
They are true black boxes, no markings, so I hope they are constant current supplies.
(could be just a bridge rectifier and a dropping resistor.):mad:
Anybody know a friendly dentist who will do a "bitewing X-ray" of the BBs?

The answer you got on the current draw was boilerplate, but, of course, accurate.
Mine actually draws 650 ma. at 120v. and that includes the 3 fans.

In spite of that, it does veg. very well. :thumbsup:
Almost too well.
DWC'd momma got too big for da room,
hadda put her in bloom.

I'd say, order the dual blue and buy one of those cheap KWH meters.
For ~$20. They will tell you the actual current draw, power factor, KWH, real-time voltage, etc.

Then you can test all your appliances to see which one have their hand in your pocket.:cool:

"Should I be concerned that they make their own LED's?"

Not if they make good leds.:D

If you have a decent lux meter, we'll compare notes and measurements
If you don't have a light meter, a calibrated eyeball will tell you if they are crappy.
The relative "brightness' should be the same for all leds of the same wavelength.
And they should be way too bright to look directly at.

So, get a money-back guarantee and place your order.
That's why we buy "samples", yah?

How 'bout, title your veg. log.

Two blue?! Who knew!?;)

Aloha,
Wee Zard

RackitMan

05-26-2009, 07:14 PM

Hey Weez,

Are you experimenting with pulsing the lights at all?

Are you going to add any UV LEDs?

Weezard

05-26-2009, 08:56 PM

Hey Weez,

Are you experimenting with pulsing the lights at all?

At all?
Sure.
Just one pulse, but it lasts 18 hours.:D

I have several experiments going at the moment.
My :weedpoke: plate is full.
Hoping someone else will step up and do the pulsed light experiment.
How 'bout you, ya busy?:)

Are you going to add any UV LEDs?

Why on earth would I do something that silly?:silly:

One of the reasons that I grow indoors is to protect my crop from the degradation of THC that UV causes.
I also never expose cured buds to UV because they are no longer producing THC faster than the UV can destroy it.
Red and blue leds may or may not produce THC as fast as sunlight does, but the THC accumulates for the whole grow simply because there is no UV to break it down.

Now my meds are too strong! :stoned:
(Poor baby, yah?:D)

IMHO, UVb is just another stoner myth.

In short, don't need it, can't use it .
For the full rant. Check Merry Prankster's thread Bagseed LED grow.

Aloha,
Weezard

ledtime

05-26-2009, 09:20 PM

W,

I have requested the spec sheets on those custom made LED's. We'll see what they have to say for themselves, and then test them to see how full of it they are.

Hopefully, they can come through!

Have a ? on the wavelengths in the blue spectrum. The charts you show me say 430 and 452....yet most of these led lights are using 470. What should I really be aiming for?

Weezard

05-26-2009, 11:47 PM

Aloha O. M.

"HEY WEEZE, I hope you read this....to your plants so they know what theys suppose to do when they see uvb. lol
(Hey it's the main stream media, I don't trust them anyhow) "

At your request I read it to them.
Also read them a study on the effects of UVb on complex organic compounds.
Asked for a show of limbs if anybuddy wanted to hit the tanning booth....
Not a sausage!
Though they did show gratitude for the extra CO2.;)

Dese girls ain't dumb.:D

Most of the misinformation here just gets a smile out of me.
I got less important fish to fry.

People wanna buy Superthive and pretend it does something, that's fine by me,
(did a double blind once, waste of time, made no difference),
but it don't hurt nothin' but their pocketbook, yah?

Dicking around with UVb can blind you, burn your skin and kickstart melanoma!

So, I gotta open my yap about UV before someone goes and raises my insurance rates.:D
Just askin' folks to read and think before they jump on that little me-too wagon.

The rest of the dumb stuff?
Whatevah floats yer boats is alla time fine by me.
Wilder da better I just watch and learn.
An open mind is da bestest kind.

Regards,
Wee Zard

Weezard

05-27-2009, 12:10 AM

W,

I have requested the spec sheets on those custom made LED's. We'll see what they have to say for themselves, and then test them to see how full of it they are.

Don't get "hung-up" on minor details, brah.

Knna has a point when he says Ledengin emitters are less efficient than some others, but, as led producers leapfrog each other, one led is always going to be more or less efficient than the next.
It's a fluid situation.
Since none of the "wehavemorephotonsperWatt" guys was making 15 Watt emitters, at the time that I was designing my array, the choice was clear.
Might cost me 3 or 4 Watts more, but the overall results are outstanding!

Hopefully, they can come through!

Have a ? on the wavelengths in the blue spectrum. The charts you show me say 430 and 452....yet most of these led lights are using 470. What should I really be aiming for?

Most of 'em use 460-470nm. because that's what has been affordable/available when they designed their lights.
Compromise is mandatory if you expect to make a profit.:(

If your supplier can provide 430 and 450 blue, woohoo!

Emerson would be tickled pink.
I'd really like to see that.:)

If not, I'd gun for dead center at 440 nm. with a wide "skirt".

Havin' fun yet?:D
Weeze

ledtime

05-27-2009, 12:34 AM

I love this stuff....it's nice to get back into scientific experiments. About 10 years ago I used to design heart catheters for a big corporation. Since then I've been in finance.

The exercise my brain is getting from this is quite refreshing!

These guys say they can make these LED's to my exact specs. It takes the cost of my units up by $55 to get the exact wavelength LED, but to me that's well worth it if they work!

I was thinking of instead of ordering their off the shelf 120W light with just the 470's, I would substitute in 50% 430nm and 50% 452nm to comprise the blue in the flowering light. Sound like a good plan?:)

Weezard

05-27-2009, 01:43 AM

ledtime

05-28-2009, 12:07 AM

ledtime

05-28-2009, 12:36 AM

Here is the test results of the 660nm red 1W LED's that are going into my flowering light:

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4903/red1wtest.jpg

Weezard

05-28-2009, 12:59 AM

Weezard,

Here are the links to how I layed out the LED's on the two lamps. Should have them in about 10 days.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3276/90wlayout.jpg

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9651/120wlayout.jpg

On the first link the unlabeled LED's are the 430nm. On the 120W all the reds are 660nm.:)

You should warn a guy when he might need a bib.
Done drooled all down da front of my best surf shirt.

I C U R N engineer kine guy.:cool:
Very pleased to meetcha!:)

Organized people are the only hope for us ADD kine guys.
Without my well organized wife, I'd prolly descend into piggery in very short while.:stoned:

From the last 2 years of :weedpoke:
I'd say you are going to be very happy with the bloom light.

I'm thrilled that you are trying the double-hump blue for veg.

I have some 5W. "Royal blue" leds though I can't remember the actual wavelength.
Their skirts have quite a bit of near uv.
Enough to make a blacklight poster scream.
Lights up my T-shirt just standing inna doorway.
But, of course, no UVb.
Plants vegged under it were greener and healthier looking than the ones under 470 nm.
A subjective judgement, not a real double blind.
But the difference was not subtle.

Now, we wait, yah?
Aloha,
Weeze

ledtime

05-28-2009, 01:08 AM

HAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry for messing up your shirt! I'm an ADD victim myself. I put my car keys down somewhere three days ago and I've yet to find them!

The only worry I have is that the graph readout for those reds says the mcd reading is 3333. A little low no? I sent the guy in china an email questioning this. I would hope they would be a little brighter?

I'm like a little kid waiting for santa right now. I can hardly contain myself. This will be a loooooonnngggg wait.

This should be REALLY interesting with this dual blue spectrum I have in both lights.

Now I just need to get some good seeds. I only have some bagseed of this jamaican stuff at the moment. Not sure what it is, but it knocks me on my ass.

I'm just setting everything up and going over the grow tent. It's a 3'x3'x6'. I would really love to have two separate places...one for veg and one for flower so that I can clone and cut some time out. However, I don't think I have the space. Maybe I can divide the grow in half by builiding a shelf to separate it? but with 5g DWC I need some headroom.....:(

Weezard

05-28-2009, 01:12 AM

Here is the test results of the 660nm red 1W LED's that are going into my flowering light:

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4903/red1wtest.jpg

WTF?!
The wavelength looks peachy.
But in place of a lumen rating I see 3333.0 mcd.
That's 3 1/3 candela per emitter.
Now, my math stinks, but that looks like about 267 lumens for 80 leds.
I don't know a lot about 1 Watt leds. Is that typical output?

Off to do some research.
Weeze

Woops!
You are way ahead of me.
Never mind.
W.

ledtime

05-28-2009, 01:21 AM

I used an online calculator for LED's to calculate lumens per LED. The calc says 10.471 lumens per LED. There are a 100 red LED's in the array putting it at 1,047.1 lumens. That seems pretty bad????

Weezard

05-28-2009, 01:34 AM

I used an online calculator for LED's to calculate lumens per LED. The calc says 10.471 lumens per LED. There are a 100 red LED's in the array putting it at 1,047.1 lumens. That seems pretty bad????

Well,

PLEASE NOTE that the lumen per watt figures in this document are lumens of light produced per watt of electricity delivered to the LED. Some LED manufacturers state much higher figures indicating the lumens per watt of radiated light. The latter, high figure is typically in the ballpark of 60-100 for red, 130-180 for orange-red, 220-265 for red-orange, 440-500 for yellow, 400-plus to near 660 for green (656 for Avago HLMP-C115), and around 50-90 for blue. The main purpose of this "high" figure is for conversion between radiometric and photometric units for the emitted light. If the conversion efficiency and the "high" lumen/watt figures are both known, multiply them to get the lumens out per watt in.
Beam brightness and width figures below are mostly ones claimed by manufacturers/distributors and I have NOT confirmed most of these.
Most Efficient Deep Red / Pure Red LEDs - 14-15 lumens/watt

InGaAlP LEDs with dominant wavelength at least 631 nm are sometimes called "royal red". These deep red InGaAlP LEDs often achieve 12-15 lumens/watt.

UPDATE 5/11/2009: LEDEngin makes some deep red high power LEDs, available at Mouser Electronics. These LEDs have rated peak wavelength of 655-670 nm, typically 660 nm. These appear to me to use GaAlAsP chemistry and to be unusually efficient for GaAlAsP.
The LEDEngin LZ4-00R210, LZ4-20R210 and LZ4-40R210, at 700 mA, are claimed to have typical voltage drop of 10.5 volts and typical radiant flux of 1.8 watts. This is typical efficiency of 24.5 percent.
One update of mine is that spectral analysis indicates dominant wavelength of 643-644 nm and luminous efficacy of the emitted light to be about 60 lumens/watt. If radiometric efficiency is indeed 24.5%, then overall luminous efficacy is 14-15 lumens per watt.
Other LEDEngin high power deep red LEDs achieve efficiency similar to or slightly lower than that of LZ4-00R210, LZ4-20R210 and LZ4-40R210. Red LEDs with GaAlAsP and Avago's similar AlGaAs in my experience, when doing well, tend to achieve 7-8 lumens per watt. But unlike the more efficient orangish red ones below, they are truly fairly pure red in color, with dominant wavelength (color specification roughly meaning hue) of 637-648 nm, usually 640-645 nm, and peak wavelength of 645-665 nm, usually 660 nm.

So, ya see, it's simple, but it's not that simple.

Your thoughts?

Weeze

ledtime

05-28-2009, 01:54 AM

Weezard

05-28-2009, 02:35 AM

I thought those LEDEngin's were a lot more efficient. With those numbers they are on par with 1W's. So these reds that I'm getting are not all that bad as they should be putting out the same lumens/watt as the 10-15W's.

Am I correct?

The 15 Watt dies do about 15 L. per W.
You calculate 10.471 L. per led.
(I think you meant to say per Watt, so it will be a bit less per led.)

So, no.
But you can not expect them to compete head to head.

My concern is the mcd rating.
I built an array of 10 mm. leds rated at 70,000 mcd ea.
Granted those were "hong kong" ratings and were the result of a very narrow, (15-20%), beam width.

We need to look at the output of a few other provider's 1 watt deep reds.
If these leds are in the same ballpark, pull the trigger.:rastasmoke:

What are the spec on the blue leds?

W.

ledtime

05-28-2009, 02:52 AM

It looks like the mcd rating on the blues are the same. But they are EXACTLY the same. Maybe it is a default number and they weren't testing mcd???

I guess I just have to wait until they email me back. They usually do right about now so it shouldn't be too long a wait until we get some answers!

Oh, these things are 120deg. so they say.....

ledtime

05-28-2009, 02:56 AM

What did your chinese UFO put out? 1W LED's in it right?

Weezard

05-28-2009, 03:30 AM

What did your chinese UFO put out? 1W LED's in it right?

By the lux-meter?
7,500 max lux at 12" dead center.
Calibrated eyeball?
Very bright.
Results?
Vegges very well, so far.

Specs?
No gottum.:(

Gey a Reply yet?
It should be very early there.
So, we wait.

W.

ledtime

05-29-2009, 02:36 AM

Weezard

05-29-2009, 02:52 AM

So,

I finally got word just now. The red 660nm LED's put out 21.7 lumens per LED. The blue 430nm put out 13.7 lumens and the 453nm puts out 28.7 lumens.

Does that sound alright for these? The graphs he sent me before were for LED's that run at much lower wattage.

That's Peachy keen!. :thumbsup:
Especially the 660.
I think you have a winner here.
Mind if I ask what they are charging for the sample?

Yeeha!
Weeze

DreadedHermie

05-29-2009, 03:15 AM

ledtime

05-29-2009, 04:08 AM

The 90W version with the custom blues was $175, and the 120W with the 660's and the custom blues was $180.

If they work then it's worth it to me for saving me the labor of putting them together!

headshake

05-29-2009, 04:21 AM

Haven't been followiing real close. Long division cornfuses me. But isn't 430nm in the ballpark where they start talking about radiometric power and not visible light? Or is this just a kickass blue that's still cranking out that much visible light?

Looks intriguing, either way. Good find (hopefully!) :thumbsup:

430nm is in the violet range, just before blue. (violet 380-435nm; blue 435-500nm; uva (longwave) 320-400nm). so i guess the violet and the uva overlap a bit, hence the violet color of a blacklight?

-shake

ledtime

05-29-2009, 08:13 PM

Weezard

05-29-2009, 11:45 PM

The 90W version with the custom blues was $175, and the 120W with the 660's and the custom blues was $180.

If they work then it's worth it to me for saving me the labor of putting them together!

Outstanding! I can't build them for less.

W.

Weezard

05-30-2009, 12:10 AM

Weezard,

I was just reading one of your posts from page 7 of this thread. Your light puts out 90k on the lux meter? That's AMAZING. The ufo only put out 7,500? That's concerning. How can I expect this 120W light that I bought to perform well at all???

Relax, brah that reading is not impressive when you hold the sensor a few centimeters from the emitter.
At normal growing heights, I run 12K to 75K
91k. lux is just where photosynthesis halts.
That's why you can stop the stretch with a procyon.
What you are actually doing is stopping growth with light saturation.
Changing the R:B without saturation of either color is what give real control of the internode distance
Works well with little girls, not so well with big mommas.
Large plants only stop growing at the top.
Ongoing bottom growth will shove the tops right up agaist the light and then they bleach and will burn with the big emitters.
I built my light with too much red at max so that I could tweak the R:B by turning just the red down.
Look how fast light drops with distance from the source;
[attachment=o219059]

[attachment=o219060]
If your guy isn't just making up specs, your light will be more than adequate and, perhaps, stellar.

"Patient tends to ramble":D
Weeze

ledtime

05-30-2009, 11:43 PM

This wait is tough. They said the lights will ship out June 2nd.

Weezard

05-31-2009, 02:10 AM

This wait is tough. They said the lights will ship out June 2nd.

Dat frikken slow boat from China always toasts my Taco.

Buck-up me Buck-o, this is the hardest part.
Watchin' dem little girls grow up to be, Lovely Ladies of the Light,
is worth da hassle, and will warm your heart.
I May be wrong, but I'm prolly right.

Building one's own energy input is great fun!
Learning is mentally and emotionally rewarding as well.
But.
Growing is addictive!:jointsmile:

I had to stop naming da girls.

Da sorrow of parting was not all sweet.

Damn I miss Virginia!
[attachment=o219159]
Though she does live on as part of my personal neuro-chemistry!:jointsmile:

Dis be a good time to read every thing you can find about growing.
"All grows are only as good as their weakest link."

With timers, LEDs and DWC,
the weakest link is probably, me.
I automate as best I can.
To mitigate my attention span.

It can get nanometer short, brah!:jointsmile:
My best advice?
Read bruddah, read.:thumbsup:

Aloha nui
Wee Zard

ledtime

05-31-2009, 02:48 AM

I've been reading non-stop. It seems that is all that I'm doing in my free time. I've learned a lot however and that is always nice.

The china men are shipping it 3 day DHL delivery so it should be here by friday.

Hey, can you recommend a good place to get good seeds?

ledtime

06-01-2009, 05:12 PM

This morning I was able to have another conversation with the manufacturer. This place holds the original patent to the UFO LED light.

I was explaining to him how others have seen the current draw around .31 rather than the .75 that it was supposed to be.

He said that other facilities in china are selling these lamps using .5W LED's and advertising them at 1W. To the eye they look the same, but when you put them under testing equiptment the results tell the real story.

He is currently working on 3W and 5W versions. So later this year I may have another light to fiddle with if I don't build a custom one. We'll see. These lights coming should be nice though! :jointsmile:

19toker45

06-02-2009, 05:32 AM

hello...
have been lurking about for a while now or as i like to call it...getting a free education.
if i start naming names...i will surely leave someone out so...
thanks to all, quite a read so far...

have decided to join your led party if i may, i love a project with a happy ending.

playing with ledeng 5 watt leds (from mouser so unknown bins).
660nm red, 465nm blue and warm white.
except for the soldering (really great heat sink, needs massive soldering iron)

trying to grow inside 5 gallon white buckets,
leds mounted on lid, 1 plant inside each white bucket.
leds glued to computer cpu fan/heatsinks. (cheap and very reliable)
1 bucket with 4-5W reds and 1-5W blue, 14.6 volts @ 1Amp.
1 bucket with 4-5W reds and 4-5W warm whites, 24.4 volts @ 1Amp.

last night, the red/warm white combo toasted a plant like in an oven...
didn't even have time to say goodbye....
it is time to pulse(pwm) them for brightness adjustments.

brain pick time..........

Q. am designing a fixed current source for pwm...
would i design the current max to be the 5W led pulsed max 2 amps?
( the pwm could then pulse about 2 amps for max uE....right?)

am not sure of what the voltage will do when the current is switched off by pwm.
cannot exceed led voltage specs by too much.

the voice of experience says.....
higher than max led voltage very very bad...will not love you long time.

i stole this pdf somewhere (if from one of you...oops...sorry) and as i read,
it mentions that plants can be pulsed. since it is so easy to pwm...i like their way,
but is it right? need some forum brain trust action.

"The light utilization efficiency and relative photon requirement of photosynthesis in pulsed and continuous light from light emitting diodes (LEDs) has been measured.
First, we characterized the photon requirement of photosynthesis from light of LEDs that differ in spectral quality.
A photon requirement of 10.3 f 0.4 was measured using light
from a 658 nm peak wavelength (22 nm half band width) LED over the range of 0-50 pmol photons m-2 s-'
in 2 kPa 0 2 in leaves of tomato (Lycopersicon esculentum Mill., cv. VF36).
Because the conversion of electrical power to photons increased with wavelength, LED lamps with peak photon output of 668 nm were most efficient for converting electricity to photo synthetically fixed carbon. The effect of pulsed irradiation on photosynthesis was then measured.
When all of the light to make the equivalent of 50 pmol photons mp2 s-' was provided during 1.5 ps pulses of 5000 pmol photons mP2 s-' followed by 148.5 ps dark periods, photosynthesis was the same as in continuous 50 pmol photons mP2 s-'.
When the pulse light and dark periods were lengthened to 200 ps and 19.8 ms, respectively, photosynthesis was reduced, although the averaged photon flux density was unchanged.
Under these conditions, the light pulses delivered 1017 photons mP2, which we calculate to be equivalent to the capacitance of PS I or PS 11.
Data support the theory that photons in pulses of 100 ps or shorter are absorbed and stored in the reaction centers to be used in electron transport during the dark period.
When lightldark pulses were lengthened to 2 ms light and 198 ms dark, net photosynthesis was reduced to half of that measured in continuous light.
Pigments of the xanthophyll cycle were not affected by any of these pulsed light treatments even though zeaxanthin formation occurred when leaves were forced to dissipate an equal amount of continuous light."
thanks to: Daniel J. Tennessen Raymond J. Bulba Thomas D. Sharkey 1994 u of wisconsin
link to whole pdf: https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/tsharkey/web/My_papers/Tennessen%20Bula%20and%20Sharkey%20Pulsed%20light% 201995.pdf
sorry kind of long....perhaps somebody can translate......

148.5uSec/1.5uSec = 99 that should save some energy...............
but will need 100 times the number of photons for that 1.5uSec.
would not be surprised if it evens out in the end.

Q. any ideas on what frequency i should run the pwm?
according to dan, ray and tom above, it appears to matter........
(150uSec = 6666Hz ??? not sure what 150ps is and what the heck is a pmol does p equal u ???)

Q. anyone have any way to convert from led output to uE's???

i have been mistreating electrons since vacuum tubes,
so if anyone needs any help in the designing
or the killing of electronic type thingys you but have to ask.

i do go on and on.....
but a toke or two helps the juices flow,
this is not so simple a subject!!!

thanks for all your help...
19toker45

Inside every older man is a younger man,
wondering what the hell happened!!!

Weezard

06-02-2009, 08:59 AM

Sounds like you'll feel right at home here.
Been hoping someone would volunteer to try pulsing.
Oh, psec is pico-second
Prolly pico-mole as well.

What's the verdict on the warm/white leds so far?

Aloha,
Weezard

ledtime

06-02-2009, 08:46 PM

Weez,

Here is a link to the pictures of the test results from the actual LED's that went into my lamps. The files are named according to wavelength.

Pictures by ledtime1 - Photobucket (http://s735.photobucket.com/albums/ww356/ledtime1/) :thumbsup:

oldmac

06-02-2009, 11:07 PM

Hello 19toker45,

That scientific paper was originally posted by Physicsnole, and is one of my favorites. It was the first paper I'd seen where they used LEDs to try and see what wavelength of light worked for photosynethsis rather then use another light source and filters. Keep in mind that paper is at least 14 years old tho. I really wish someone would come up with some newer research papers for us to work from. And of course, the pulsing idea holds some potential, but how to realize it seems hard to figure.

I was told by an engineer, who helped me with my first DIY light power supply, to always use a dimmer in the AC side feeding the power supply. The output of the dimmer is a square wave and is more efficent at turning the diodes on/off then a regular sine wave.

If I was going to pursue pulsing diodes, that is where I'd start.
(I hope igrowwithmatches reads this also)

Welcome to the mind warp known as LEDs.

DreadedHermie

06-03-2009, 10:47 PM

i love a project with a happy ending

Happy ending cost $50 extra. You #1 G.I.! :thumbsup:

trying to grow inside 5 gallon white buckets,
last night, the red/warm white combo toasted a plant like in an oven...

You need ventilation, which you don't mention. Got any?

White buckets may present problems for lotsa reasons, especially if you're gonna try to flower in them. (Nothing insurmountable, though.) How'd you decide on growing in them?

....perhaps somebody can translate......"50 pmol photons mp2 s-' was provided during 1.5 ps pulses of 5000 pmol photons mP2 s-' followed by 148.5 ps dark periods"

As Weezard pointed out, a ps is a pico-second. A trillionth of a second. Equipment that can pulse at that resolution isn't exactly available at Radio Shack....

148.5uSec/1.5uSec = 99 that should save some energy...............
but will need 100 times the number of photons for that 1.5uSec.

150uSec = 6666Hz ???

Okay, here's a "small" :D problem: you substitued microseconds (a millionth of a second) for picoseconds. Subsequent calculations will be off by a factor of one million. :( (I know: picky, picky....)

Google "pulse width modulation" for more detail. It works great for dimming.
You only need to "pulse" faster than about 250Hz so your eyes can't detect it. Typical rates in PWM dimming range from 1,000Hz to 200,000Hz (cycles per second, for the onlookers), which is many orders of magnitude slower that those trillionths of seconds Sharkey et al. were dealing with.

Two way different animals. Sorry, you're not going to get "pulsing," as the term is bandied about here, out of a PWM dimmer. Hope this saves you some aggravation. :thumbsup:

ledtime

06-04-2009, 06:24 PM

Weezard,

I have a pic here. I'm in the process of setting things up and figured you'd like to see....

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww356/ledtime1/IMG00030.jpg

It's brighter than bright. When I turned on the flowering light, without looking at the bulbs, just the light in the room I saw green when the light turned off.

It filled an entire 10' x 12' room with all red! We'll see how it does. Wish I had a lux meter to let you know.

headshake

06-04-2009, 06:26 PM

can't wait to hear/see the results ledtime!

looks good.

-shake

ledtime

06-05-2009, 03:26 PM

So I wanted to see how good this blue veg light works. My wife has been growing fresh herbs outside and her stevia plant was looking VERY sad.

So yesterday I took it and put it under the blue light and this thing perked right up in about 25 mins. The leaves weren't wilted and droopy anymore!

It must be doing something right. Can't wait to see what it does with other things!

headshake

06-05-2009, 03:55 PM

are you gonna do a grow log ledtime?

i hope that you consider it!

-shake

oldmac

06-05-2009, 04:29 PM

Two way different animals. Sorry, you're not going to get "pulsing," as the term is bandied about here, out of a PWM dimmer. Hope this saves you some aggravation.

Hermie,

I did not mean to give the impression you could get "pulsing" from a dimmer, but that a dimmer produces a square wave that is more efficent to the diodes then a sine wave.

It is a starting point in understaning the pulsing concept tho, rectify the output, double the amplitude of the remainder and you effectively have the same power with 1/2 the time being on and 1/2 the time off.

As to the frequency that this pulsing must occur, it probably doesn't matter, we are not trying to fool the human eye just get photons to the plant. What might be more improtant is the ratio of the on and off, but it is going to depend a lot on thermal management, which brings me back to the point of that being an old paper. They where useing 5mm diodes back then, we are up to some serious hi power LEDs now, so the thermal dynamic issues to pull off pulsing is now much different.

Remember there is no "free lunch" here if you get x number of photons per watt (or mili or micro), per second (or mico or nano) and you want the same number of photons in the same time but some off time then power must increase. The proposed pulsing theroy is seeking to increase efficent use of electron conversion to photon energy for plant use, and much study remains to see how much could really be gained.

DreadedHermie

06-05-2009, 11:08 PM

I did not mean to give the impression you could get "pulsing" from a dimmer

You didn't. Everything you said is gold, IMO. As someone wrote on this board, "Your words have iron."

Two days went by and 19toker45's question about frying his plants went unanswered, so I just jumped in. I'd really like to hear more about his setup, hope he posts again.

The pulsing / PWM thing (as presented by 19toker45) looked like it was gonna get people confused. I'm a firm believer in making this stuff seem more accessible. That's what I like so much about your style, and Weezard's. Anybuddy can cut and paste complicated stuff. You guys understand it well enough to express it in different (less technical) terminology. You can restate the concepts in your own words, which is a common metric for comprehension.

Teaching, IMO, is not about how "smart" you are. It's about how clear you can make ideas (which does have to do with how smart you are!)

I'm sure 19toker understands rectifying AC and is familiar with various waveforms (audio amps = o-scope). But not everybody following this thread does, and, happily, it's not necessary for building an effective light with dimming capability. With the equipment available to me, pulsing @ 1.5 ps might as well be just a theoretical concept-- interesting to consider, but not within my power to pull off. Kinda like the particle accelerator I'm building in the garage. :D

PWM dimming, though, we can ALL take advantage of. It'd be a shame if folks discounted PWM because they ran into a brick wall with "pico-pulsing."

:greenthumb: Yo' admirer always, Hermie

MerryPrankstr

06-05-2009, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by OldMac
As to the frequency that this pulsing must occur, it probably doesn't matter, we are not trying to fool the human eye just get photons to the plant. What might be more improtant is the ratio of the on and off, but it is going to depend a lot on thermal management, which brings me back to the point of that being an old paper. They where useing 5mm diodes back then, we are up to some serious hi power LEDs now, so the thermal dynamic issues to pull off pulsing is now much different.

You are quite right, OldMac.

I measured my TI Probloom with my newly acquired LUX meter.
At "Ground Zero" it measure Over Scale (400,000 LUX)
At 1 1/2 inches it's 396K LUX.

I'm gonna do a much more in-depth measurement when I can set up a rig that makes it easier to tak the measurements and then publish the results along with measuements on the output of the procyon. I'm also curious as to what the level was in my grow room so I'll publish those as well.

Later,
MP

Weezard

06-06-2009, 01:31 AM

Weezard

06-06-2009, 01:42 AM

You are quite right, OldMac.

I measured my TI Probloom with my newly acquired LUX meter.
At "Ground Zero" it measure Over Scale (400,000 LUX)
At 1 1/2 inches it's 396K LUX.

I'm gonna do a much more in-depth measurement when I can set up a rig that makes it easier to tak the measurements and then publish the results along with measuements on the output of the procyon. I'm also curious as to what the level was in my grow room so I'll publish those as well.

Later,
MP

Brilliant, MP!

It's all relative, of course but. for comparing lights of the same wavelength it should be a usable comparative.
I have read the 91k lux of sunlight will halt photosynthesis.
How that translates to 660 nm, etc. I have almost no idea.
Seems we are about to find out.:):thumbsup:

ciao 4 now

Weeze

MerryPrankstr

06-06-2009, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Weezard

It's all relative, of course but. for comparing lights of the same wavelength it should be a usable comparative.

Absolutely.

Since the two lights have different blends of frequencies no direct comparison was intended. I was thinking more of a table of LUX output for each type as a guide for placement.

Hopefully start some time this week.
Take care weez...
MP

oldmac

06-06-2009, 03:45 PM

I'm gonna do a much more in-depth measurement when I can set up a rig that makes it easier to tak the measurements and then publish the results along with measuements on the output of the procyon. I'm also curious as to what the level was in my grow room so I'll publish those as well.

Later,
MP

Hey MP, I'm really looking forward to your measurements.
Ahhhh, scientific curiousity is a wonderfull thing. (plus stuff like this keeps the engineers at bay; no saying "...well THERORETICALLY it should do..." or my favorite"...according to the book...."

Do something, use something, then measure and see for yourself.

MerryPrankstr

06-06-2009, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by OldMac

Do something, use something, then measure and see for yourself.

Empirical science at it's best...

MP

Bubbleblower

06-07-2009, 01:00 PM

Also read them a study on the effects of UVb on complex organic compounds.

After reading a few studies as well I decided to jump on the UVB broadbandwagon.
Wether the THC story is true or not I don't know. If you add a UV light and get more THC that doesn't mean the UV in the light is responsible for that and I haven't found any convincing proof UVB will increase THC. But for sure UVB does great things for flowers and fruits or even lettuce and missing it in the spectrum might be one of the main reasons why indoor weed is never as good as outdoor.

What you are actually doing is stopping growth with light saturation.

That's what I need to know, what is the maximum saturation for a canopy.
I did google that of course and ended up here (http://boards.cannabis.com/cannabis-com-lounge/169247-maximum-saturation.html) :)

Weezard

06-07-2009, 06:44 PM

"might be one of the main reasons why indoor weed is never as good as outdoor. "

Say what?!:wtf:

Not lately!:D

I have clones indoors and out
The indoor girls are keeping pace with the outdoor girls for size and health.
It may be hard to quantify potency, but first tests put the outdoor buds to shame.
I'm picking UVb as the most probable 'cause and rain as a factor.
I will eliminate the rain effect with my next test and am considering a window glass shelter, (mini-greenhouse), outdoors to stop rain and UVb.

Old Mac has offered to turn his Vitamin B. off for a run and will present the results of his bio assay in a few months.

My preliminary, (no UV.), results are making me very happy.
The potency of the indoor buds is amazing.:stoned:

As for light saturation.
91K lux, (of solar spectrum), is about max. I'm guessing it's a bit less for LEDs because of the higher absorbtion and the lower sensitivity of the meter at those wavelengths.

Just my 2 cent, but I think we're on to something.

Aloha,
Weezard

ledtime

06-07-2009, 09:30 PM

You have scored!.:thumbsup:
This is getting very interesting!

Weeze

Wow...I've got to get some kind of glasses. That blue light makes my vision funny for a few seconds! I don't even look directly at the bulbs.

I'll keep you updated with the results.

Bubbleblower

06-08-2009, 12:29 AM

How your inside grass is better while our outside grass is better I don't get since you have much better weather. May be you have to grow stealth while we can grow 15 ft trees. Weed can never fully develop like that inside.

"As for light saturation.
91K lux, (of solar spectrum), is about max. I'm guessing it's a bit less for LEDs because of the higher absorbtion and the lower sensitivity of the meter at those wavelengths.

Just my 2 cent, but I think we're on to something.

Aloha,
Weezard

Yes, we are getting somewhere. 90K must be right, because the maximum found is 100K, right in your backyard as a matter of fact.
That 90K translates to 8.370 lumen and the better your spectrum the less you need.

But do I understand this correcty?
Roughly the solar spectrum has 25% blue and 25% red and long waves have about 10 times more energy than short ones.
So do I need 10 times more wattage blue light than red to get about the same amount of lumens?
If this is correct I don't get why they put so many red leds in these growlamps either.

Wow...I've got to get some kind of glasses. That blue light makes my vision funny for a few seconds! I don't even look directly at the bulbs.

I'll keep you updated with the results.

Results (http://www.kaboodle.com/reviews/kiss-sunglasses).

oldmac

06-08-2009, 07:45 PM

Results (http://www.kaboodle.com/reviews/kiss-sunglasses).

Hey Bubbleblower,

Those are the exact same glasses DreadedHermie has!

You raised a very interesting question in regards to Weezard's location. I too would think outdoors in Hawaii you could grow some stuff oudoors that could do some serious damage. Heck, I'd be growing some Thai sativa at least 12' tall. And if that wasn't enough I'd give it the old opium/water cure to insure smoooth smokeing and a mellower up high. But that's me.

DreadedHermie

06-08-2009, 09:08 PM

Those are the exact same glasses DreadedHermie has!

"Three quick trips off the tip of my tongue: Lo. Li. Ta!" :D

[attachment=o219728]

Weezard

06-08-2009, 09:51 PM

Hey Bubbleblower,

Those are the exact same glasses DreadedHermie has!

You raised a very interesting question in regards to Weezard's location. I too would think outdoors in Hawaii you could grow some stuff oudoors that could do some serious damage.

Oh yeah! The outdoor weed is terrific!
But the indoor grown is mo' betta for potency.
My outdoor girls are limited by their containers. The same size containers as the indoors clones of course.
I do have an indoor mamma in 5 gal DWC that's gettin too big for her parlor. And I do have a 6' Sativa outdoors only.
(Not suitable for indoors.)

Heck, I'd be growing some Thai sativa at least 12' tall. And if that wasn't enough I'd give it the old opium/water cure to insure smoooth smokeing and a mellower up high. But that's me.

I have security concerns so my ht limit is 8'.
I'm legal, but we do have to worry about rustlers here.:(
Um "old opium/water cure"?
Care to elaborate?

Wondering Weeze.

oldmac

06-09-2009, 07:19 PM

I have security concerns so my ht limit is 8'.

Same ht limit I had in my grenhouse, just use bushmaster.

I'm legal, but we do have to worry about rustlers here.:(

Yup, same problem I had last fall, the crack heads got me greenhouse....the only good thing about that, my town seems to have 3 less crack heads around now.

Um "old opium/water cure"?
Care to elaborate?

Wondering Weeze.

Real Thai stick is dried and cured using tar-opium mixed with water, it usually is sprayed on the trimmed buds as they dry. It really makes a difference in taste and smothness of smoke, even in a bong. The US military had a problem on their hands with returning troops, many of whom where using red rock heroin and gray rock, either snorting or smokeing it. So when they started randomly testing the troops they got positive hits on so many more then they thought they would. The problem was the pot smokers where testing positive for opiates even tho most never did the heroin. When they went to mandatory testing before troops went home, they had to quantify the opiate tests so they didn't snag 1/2 the army and air force from returning home.

ledtime

06-11-2009, 06:58 PM

So, seeds were planted on June 5th. They sprouted on June 8th. It's now the eleventh and at 6 days from planting the seedlings are about 1-1.125" tall. Their stems are THICK. They only have two blade leaves so far.

The interesting thing is the roots. There was at first the main root...nice, white, thick and long. Now roots are coming out of the sides of the rooter plugs everywhere! I wasn't expecting this until sometime next week.

I am raising them up in a bubble cloner if that makes any difference. They seem to be really liking this dual blue light I'm working with here. I'm not sure what strain this is, but I know it's grown in Jamaica.

Figured I would just let you know the progress. Oh, and with no ventilation fan on in the room the temp stays around 79-80 degrees. Pretty tame from this light. :D

headshake

06-11-2009, 08:04 PM

sounds good ledtime. how bout you start a grow log? that way everyone could follow along. i know many are interested in LEDs and it would be good to show what they ARE capable of doing.

got any pics?!

-shake

ledtime

06-19-2009, 04:32 AM

So, I have the light about 5" above the plants and they are showing signs of leaning towards the center of the light. I'm going to raise the light up to around 9" and see if they straighten out.

Other than that they are doing quite well running under just the blue lights. It's been 14 days since I planted them. Until today I was just running 5.8PH tap water at 160ppm with one drop of superthrive per gallon.

The plants have developed slowly the first week, but now by the end of the second week they have 6 alternating pairs of leaves. The roots are growing down into the bucket through a ten in pot filled with hydroton. I just took the seedling in the rapid rooter from the bubble cloner and put it into the hyrdroton.

I'm using Latewood's formula for nutrients at 1-1-1 in veg with 1 being equal to 80ml per gallon. I just started this regiment today after draining out the superthrive tap water. I'll be topping off what liquid karma as needed and swapping out fresh nutrients every 14 days or so. I can't tell the strain yet, but they look as though they may be some form of sativa. The root growth from this blue light is OUTSTANDING. The plants are staying low and growing out. About 6 hours after swapping in the nutrients the plant leaves grew out about .25"! I've been keeping my nutirent solution around 70 degrees.

Just thought I would provide an update. The mixture of the two "ideal" blue wavelengths seems to be really growing this nicely. Explosive root growth. Low to no stretch. I love how the leaves have a nice dark purple hue under this light. Would make for some amazing pictures!

ledtime

06-19-2009, 07:45 PM

http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/172526-recirculating-dwc-custom-led-grow.html

Here you go. When I have the priveledge of posting pics from the forum I will upload some.

Weezard

07-24-2009, 12:08 AM

Happy 'zard!
Got some pre-chop pictures that no one will believe.

Set me up a parallel grow.
Just a month or so ago;
[attachment=o223630]
One, under my home brewed light.
Da led lit lady is da one on da RIGHT!

One grew in da HI. sun.
Dat would be da udder one!
(onna lef')
Buds be smaller on da sunlit one.
WTF? Grown in SUN!?

WTF?! Ah dunno!
Same media. Both Coco.
Led girl has a smaller pot.
Should be smaller, but she's not!

Same water n nutes, ('cept for rain).
An' maybe little sunburn pain.
LED girls got no UVb.
No get wind an' insect-free.

Hmmm, Outdoor, skinny. Indoor, fat.
What can we deduce from dat?
Indoor girls have got it nice.
Homeless gals mus' pay a price?

Da t'ing dat has me chortlin'?
I t'ink I got da lights dialed in.:thumbsup:

Disclaimer:
Befo' SS gets all abusive.
Tiny sample, inconclusive.:)

Say, DH.
How does your garden grow?

Aloha,
Da happy Weeze

ledtime

07-24-2009, 12:39 AM

Now THAT'S what willis was talkin bout! HAHAHA!

We need to talk!

Very nice weezard. Very nice.

MerryPrankstr

07-24-2009, 01:11 AM

Shazaam, Weez...

:smokin:

M.P.

Joefarmer

07-24-2009, 11:10 PM

f'n A weez. What have you done?! Dare I say you've put our almighty sun to shame?

Weezard

07-24-2009, 11:23 PM

f'n A weez. What have you done?! Dare I say you've put our almighty sun to shame?

I wouldn't go that far.:D
Leds no gonna grow trees.:(
On short shrubbery though...
They are sure to please.:jointsmile:

Gonna be a few weeks before da bio assay.
Need to see how exposure to the elephants
is going to affect potency.:stoned:

It's not just about size, or taste.

Lookin' good so far though!:cool:

Aloha,
Wee Zard

oldmac

07-24-2009, 11:41 PM

Maybe it's the UVb rays outdoors that are hurting them?:thumbsup:

Weezard

07-24-2009, 11:52 PM

Maybe it's the UVb rays outdoors that are hurting them?:thumbsup:

Among udder t'ings.:thumbsup:

Now it's a bake-off tween the pampered and da free.
See what kine potency with, and without, UVb.
Da waiting jus' 'bout killin' me.

Wee.

LushBuddy

07-27-2009, 03:27 PM

Though I'd drop by again -- and this time I've brought a some market research. Had a little down time at home and at work lately, so I've compiled a spreadsheet covering a few of the more popular LED manufacturers' specs and prices.

I'm in the market for a substantially large LED purchase, so I've been trying to use this data to help me choose one model over the next. Still, there are some major flaws, not the least of which is my total dependence upon the manufacturer's specs, rather than the standardized testing of an unbiased, third party. My spreadsheet is also limited in its scope with regards to both manufacturers and vendors. The price/output analysis is also geared towards value for lumens/milliwatts, rather than efficiency or any of the many other important factors.

Still, I've found it useful to line all these products up next to each other. Let me know if this data is useful to anybody else on the forum. If so, feel free to suggest new manufacturers and vendors you might like added to the spreadsheet, or new forms of analysis that might be interesting. All of this was created in Excel and exported as a PDF for use on this forum.

Thanks again for all the work that's been put into this thread and others.

Weezard

07-29-2009, 02:48 AM

Had a thought!
(Betta write him down 'fore he float away.)

Another difference tween the cloistered an' da free?
I completely forgot about the extra CO2 in my bloomery!

I pipe the waste CO2 from mead fermentation, into the bloomery.

Even so.
Low cost indoor lighting with leds has arrived!
If I can slap it together on the lanai, you should be able to purchase it today at a reasonable price.
I used of-the-shelf parts and very little skill.
Parts, etc. ran about $400.

Add some free CO2 and outgrow natural sunlight?
Looks like it, and I'm about to do it again.:jointsmile:
Film, soon.

Aloha, Y'all
Weezard

Bubbleblower

07-29-2009, 07:57 AM

[
Hmmm, Outdoor, skinny. Indoor, fat.
What can we deduce from dat?

Nice rhyme, but the answer is nothing; outdoor it takes at least twice as long.
But not in this case, because it looks like the one on the left has too little phosphor and tbh the one on the right doesn't look very happy either.

Of course leds have a great future, but this is not good enough.
Please don't shoot the messenger.:rambohead:

I can imagine the results would be great if you add intracanopylight and more blue (or UV ;)) would keep them smaller and bushier.

Weezard

07-29-2009, 09:47 PM

Nice rhyme, but the answer is nothing; outdoor it takes at least twice as long.

Um, What?

But not in this case, because it looks like the one on the left has too little phosphor and tbh the one on the right doesn't look very happy either.

Huh?!
Sorry, I don't follow you.

I enjoy learning new things, but have no idea what you are saying here.
Do you mean Phosphor as in light, or did you mean Phosphorus?
What signs do you see here that I am missing?
Help an old fart out.

Of course leds have a great future, but this is not good enough.
Please don't shoot the messenger.:rambohead:

Whatever would I do that for?:)
Dead guy can't explain what he's on about, yah?

I can imagine the results would be great if you add intracanopylight and more blue (or UV ;)) would keep them smaller and bushier.

Actually, I'm about 2 weeks from a "bake-off" 'tween the UV and non-UV buds.
So, how can I make my plants as happy as yours, on a budget?

Aloha,
Weeze

Bubbleblower

07-31-2009, 01:11 AM

What signs do you see here that I am missing?

The plant on the left has very thin purple stems with a corky layer on the bottom. It looks like it suffers from phosphorus deficiency.
Both plants are a bit stretchy and have a lot of yellow leafs and the leafs don't have many fingers.
The plant on the right has curly leafs that point downwards.

Actually, I'm about 2 weeks from a "bake-off" 'tween the UV and non-UV buds.
So, how can I make my plants as happy as yours, on a budget?

Aloha,
Weeze

Well, I really abuse my plants and do a lot wrong.
But I try hard and I guess the plants somehow catch up on that: :kisslove:
Probably the main reason why I get good results is I grow for my own smoke.

Back to leds.
In my room with two 300watt induction lamps I want to use leds for intracanopy lighting.
I was thinking 4 rings of about 25 watt under each lamp, 2 layers with 2 different diameter rings, with a broader mainly blue and red spectrum and very little green.
Unfortunately I don't speak solder well so I am looking for an easy way to realise this if there is one.

ForgetClassC

07-31-2009, 03:25 AM

ledtime

07-31-2009, 08:04 PM

Weezard

07-31-2009, 09:04 PM

The plant on the left has very thin purple stems with a corky layer on the bottom. It looks like it suffers from phosphorus deficiency.

Ah! I see.

In this case, looks are deceiving.
She's got phosphorus to burn.:cool:

That strain just sunburns easily.
Can't fault you on da call though, you are at a disadvantage.
I get a 360 CU view,
When the anthrocyanins kicked in, my first thought was chemical imbalance too.:)
Then I looked at sun shading.
[attachment=o224263]

Indoor girl on the same diet has nice waxy green stem all the way around.

Both plants are a bit stretchy and have a lot of yellow leafs and the leafs don't have many fingers.

Both are clones of a stretchy strain, that's their normal leaf morphology and they have been on a low N regimen for blooming then flushed for 2 weeks prior to harvest.
I always get some yellow fans when I do dat.

The plant on the right has curly leafs that point downwards.

That, I'm still puzzling about, though it's prolly due to my neglect.:o

Well, I really abuse my plants and do a lot wrong.
But I try hard and I guess the plants somehow catch up on that: :kisslove:
Probably the main reason why I get good results is I grow for my own smoke.

Yup, me too.
Well, me an' da wife.

Back to leds.
In my room with two 300watt induction lamps I want to use leds for intracanopy lighting.
I was thinking 4 rings of about 25 watt under each lamp, 2 layers with 2 different diameter rings, with a broader mainly blue and red spectrum and very little green.
Unfortunately I don't speak solder well so I am looking for an easy way to realise this if there is one.

There is!
Leds have arrived.
For a few hundred bucks you can have them built to order now.
Contact Ledtime for details.

Thanks for the input.
Everything helps.

Weezard

Weezard

07-31-2009, 09:11 PM

Weezard, this is probably somewhere else in this thread, but I was wondering if you know ir have the plans to the cake pan light on your comp. THat would be awesome. ALso if you have a site that actually sells all or most of these aprts. That thing looks awesome and I definitely want to ttry and build one.

-C

I'll be happy to help.
The leds came from Mouser because they stock jus' about everything.

You should be able to sus-out the construction by looking at my album snaps and reading the first part of this thread.
When ya need a hand, we're right here.:)
First order of business?
Obtain a whopping big heatsink.

Aloha,
Weezard

Weezard

07-31-2009, 09:27 PM

Aloha Weezard!

I've been playing with my lights.

My last attempt that you saw had a nice pythium attack and killed them!

I figured I would stick to soil until I've had a chance to fully test the lights. I am worred about the lumens that mine put out.

Why is that?

What does your 160W light put out?

[attachment=o224264]

[attachment=o224265]

I'm thinking I might just build a replica of what you have (with your thoughts of any additional tweaks that you think would be nice)

Would you be willing to put together a parts list for me?

Sure, but the parts list is in this thread along with some caveats an' tips.
Might want to print out the good pages, go over them, and then post a list of questions.

Aloha
Weeze

ForgetClassC

08-01-2009, 03:59 AM

awesome, i shall try

-C

Weezard

08-03-2009, 09:24 AM

Tall timber tales

[attachment=o224446]

[attachment=o224447]

[attachment=o224445]

I'll have some serious bud porn soon.

Aloha,

Weeze

Weezard

08-04-2009, 09:54 AM

It was a nice day.
[attachment=o224524]
So, I took her out for a stroll and a photo-op;
[attachment=o224525]

Aloha, Y'all

Wee 'zard

DreadedHermie

08-06-2009, 07:33 AM

Weezard, you are like the Julia Child of DIY leds! :stoned: I asked you for help, and you helped! Thanks a million, Hermie/CP

[attachment=o224657]

Weezard

08-06-2009, 09:49 AM

Is ya closin' da t'read, does we all has to go?

No gotta go home, but ya can't stay here?
So button-up lads, last call for beer?
Heard all our stories, seen all our tricks?
Dazed an' corfused we mus' all hit da bricks?

Weezard, you are like the Julia Child of DIY leds! :stoned: I asked you for help, and you helped! Thanks a million, Hermie/CP

[attachment=o224657]

Or were ya just lookin' to use dat Julia snap?
<Snap!>

'snot quite dat easy, to get rid of me,
I got's sticky fingers.

Da 'zard what is wee.:D

Aloha my fren.
Yer welcome, X 3.

waterdog

08-06-2009, 01:07 PM

I have an outside garden Full of 5- 10 pound plants....In your pictures I see a couple LITTLE inside plants grown under LED... Did I say LITTLE.!!!!!!If you really think you can BEAT the SUN with those measly LITTLE plants you must suck at outside gardening......What do you get out of a whole inside harvest???I get almost 10 # per plant!I BET you cant get 2 # out of a whole room! You are spending to much time inside with you head in the sand!!! You INDOOR guys kill me ....You will NEVER match the Yield that can be obtained under the sun.Im looking at a hundred pound plus harvest...How many years will it take you to match that with your tiny little lights????? Just saying you are WRONG ....NOTHING can match the SUN.Come on argue with me about harvest weights....I grow more in ONE season than YOU can grow indoors in 5 years inside...and its BETTER than the SUN....wake-up YOU ARE DREAMING!!!!!!

Weezard

08-06-2009, 07:49 PM

Weezard

08-06-2009, 07:59 PM

I have an outside garden Full of 5- 10 pound plants....!!

Dang! Can't find yer album brah.
I'd love to actually see a 10 pound plant.

I'm only allowed to have 6 ounces max on-hand under my HI. med license.:(

Aloha,:)
Weezard

DreadedHermie

08-07-2009, 09:45 AM

Is ya closin' da t'read, does we all has to go?

No, I figger the thread's out there with a life of its own. Not 'mine' to close; I'm kinda a laissez-faire kinda guy, anyway. :hippy: And I think there are some build questions still pending out there.

You just showed off some beautiful buds and they deserved a compliment, as does my sweetie when she models a new concealment holster or garotte-equipped pushup bra for me. :thumbsup:

Or were ya just lookin' to use dat Julia snap?
Nope, hunted it up jes' fer you. Julia was just the first icon that came to mind-- must be all the promo for the new flick-- and I just get a chuckle out of any pic of her for "some" reason. :stoned::stoned::stoned:

But I did harvest a 100% led grow a while back, using just a Procyon and my homemade 6+2 light (you know, the one you helped me build) in a 2' x 5' closet. And the 6+2 kicked the Procyon's butt as far as growing power, BTW. Yield and quality surpassed my expectations; I'm set for meds for quite a while. Figgered you might wanta see what you helped me accomplish. Again, many thanks, my friend.

Here's a typical plant from that grow, LST'd early on (as usual) to control height and induce multiple colas for a dense canopy to fire the lights into. I've grown this stain (indica dom bagseed, big deal) under HPS before with comparable results, although not having to deal with all that heat is a godsend.

This is actually a bit bigger than I like to finish them indoors, but there was a line to get into the ladies' room, if ya know what I mean, so I hadda veg a bit longer than I would have liked. Don't mind that bud dressing to the left, there--I had it tangled up in the adjacent plant for a day or two before harvest.

[attachment=o224703]

The trichs aren't visible enough without magnification to impress the jaded palates here at Canncom, but on close inspection (100X) the plants are drenched with them: :D Tastes like Nepalese hash. :thumbsup:
[attachment=o224704] [attachment=o224705] [attachment=o224706] [attachment=o224707]

Time for another hit; it'll make Julia funny all over again. :yippee:

oldmac

08-07-2009, 03:37 PM

DreadedHermie appears to have gotten a good recipie from Weez, for light that is.

Very nice pics there DH, your plant(s) looks like it did real well and those closeups are truly a work of art. :thumbsup:

May I ask what the finished height of that one was? and what do you ususally finish at? It does not look like it lacked for light down low, that's for sure.

BTW I think we should try and nominate Weezard for sainthood, not just for his LED knowledge but for his calm demeaner in dealing with the errant aholes. :wtf: I know I was more fired up when I saw the last ahole post, but sat on my hands biting my tongue knowing Weezard was a big boy and could handle it. Nice job Weez. :D
.

Bubbleblower

08-07-2009, 07:30 PM

For a few hundred bucks you can have them built to order now.

Do you have a link or so?
Preferably of a "plug and play" solution.
I don't want the "usual" design but different diameter rings with 30 watts maximum per ring.
I can imagine they make these already specifically for intracanopy lighting.

I'd love to actually see a 10 pound plant.

You ain't seen nothing yet!

This picture for example was taken 2 months before harvest and the handsome guy :cool: under there is 6 foot 2.

Weezard

08-07-2009, 08:09 PM

Do you have a link or so?
Preferably of a "plug and play" solution.
I don't want the "usual" design but different diameter rings with 30 watts maximum per ring.
I can imagine they make these already specifically for intracanopy lighting.

Yes, the manufacturer will build them to order for you.
Contact Ledtime, he'll hook you up.

You ain't seen nothing yet!

This picture for example was taken 2 months before harvest and the handsome guy :cool: under there is 6 foot 2.

Woohoo! Redwood Kush!

And here I was worried that my itty 6 footer would yield too much bud.:D

May you get higher dan yer bush.:stoned:
Weeze

Weezard

08-07-2009, 08:24 PM

DreadedHermie appears to have gotten a good recipie from Weez, for light that is.

Mahalo!:o

Very nice pics there DH, your plant(s) looks like it did real well and those closeups are truly a work of art. :thumbsup:

May I ask what the finished height of that one was? and what do you ususally finish at? It does not look like it lacked for light down low, that's for sure.

Click-it, den click-it again.
All will become clear.:D

BTW I think we should try and nominate Weezard for sainthood, not just for his LED knowledge but for his calm demeaner in dealing with the errant aholes. :wtf: I know I was more fired up when I saw the last ahole post, but sat on my hands biting my tongue knowing Weezard was a big boy and could handle it. Nice job Weez. :D
.

Aw shucks!
Ya don't get mad at skeeters do ya?
Course if they get too pesky... :chainsaw:

Mahalo O. M.
Hmmm, St. Zard.
(has a nice ring to it):D

Bubbleblower

08-09-2009, 10:38 AM

It seems what I am looking for is a so called led droplight (or stem or canopylight). When I google that I get the same products from the same manufacturer (http://www.alibaba.com/product/jnacol-101065927-100588252/CE_Rohs_Waterproof_LED_Grow_Light_12w_1m_X_2m_176_ Led_s.html) every time again.

Is that any good?
Are there better non-diy alternatives?

The x-mas tree light design looks like it would take up a lot of space and wouldn't spread the light evenly and the net design would have to be hung vertically, because otherwise it gets too much in the way.
So I could only hang about 4 or 5 of these per m2, while

Percentages of IC lighting generally varies from 25 to 50% of the total light.
so I need 4 times that.

Nets like these that are less wide (deep) and have about 30 or 40 watts in power would be just perfect.
Especially if you could have the spectrum custommade.

Bubbleblower

08-11-2009, 07:52 AM

Searched some more for intracanopy light, but no one seems to call it that.

I did find flexible strip lights, led ribbons, ropes and strings, light rings, decoration and advertising strips, led softlight and dura flex or even curtain and x-mas lights.
Now I realise I always had one of these strips in my garden and from that I know the thick PVC type strings are no good -too heavy and too big-.

It will take a lot of time untill I can see the trees through the woods, especially since all this stuff seems to be for sale in China only.
Chinese companies usually don't give the information that is vital for your decision.
Isn't there any hydroponics store selling intracanopy lighting yet? (the ones I found seem to be out of bussiness).
To me it seems easy to design and it has many proven benefits.

Weezard

08-16-2009, 08:20 PM

Searched some more for intracanopy light, but no one seems to call it that.
...

Isn't there any hydroponics store selling intracanopy lighting yet? (the ones I found seem to be out of bussiness).

That's what I call a "clue".:D

To me it seems easy to design and it has many proven benefits.

No wanna burst no bubbles, brah, but da only "proven" benefit is the ease of design.
Though they do come in handy 'roun' Christmas time.;)

Sorry 'bout dis.

All kidding aside,
Dey have been well, and thoroughly tried.
An' when dey post da yield report,
Droplight grows?
Dey come up short.:(

Suggest you buy a UFO fo' da veg. grow.
That, will give you time find a decent bloom light.:)

'course you CAN bloom under a UFO.
(I've read that, have not tried it personally.)
I did personally futz with droplights in 2007.:o
Wasted a couple months.

Just FYI.:beatdeadhorse:

Aloha
Weezard

Bubbleblower

08-17-2009, 01:35 AM

Weezard

08-17-2009, 03:15 AM

May be I wasn't clear
but I already have some blooming lights here.

According to Purdue University
you want some extra light under your canopy.
At least 25% they recommend
to get a dense and healthy plant, my friend.?

So I wil get
a special net
but I need to find
the proper kind.

;)

I wish you well,
you could be right.
The plants will tell,
What's enough light. :D

But, once you find the proper LED,
Be a pal and start a thread. :cool:

Da weeze will lurk there-in.

Aloha,
Woozy Weeze

ledtime

08-17-2009, 03:54 PM

If you want anything done custom contact this guy:

Happen Zhu - [email protected]

He custom made me my LED lights. WAYYYY less than buying them from anyone else. Three year warranty. Very nice to work with.

I vegged under my all blue one. It worked well but had some stretch as the blue lights don't put out as many lumens.

I'm vegging under my red/blue 120W right now and the plants are MUCH tighter. $180 bucks shipped for a custom 120W LED light. Can't beat that!

DreadedHermie

08-18-2009, 09:24 PM

May I ask what the finished height of that one was? and what do you ususally finish at? It does not look like it lacked for light down low, that's for sure.

Sorry not to answer ya, I got sidelined by some medical problems. Guess ya saw the measuring tape by now, those plants finished around 24". They had vegged to 20" before I was able to flip them.

I would have preferred to flip them at 15-18". At that height I can easily hold them to an inch or two of stretch simply by cranking up the blues and cranking down the reds until they settled down. Finishing at 20" or less worked well for this strain and my current setup, and 3 gal. pots gave them plenty of toe-room.

But flipping them at 20" made it harder to hold them back with the light color manipulation. 24" was as short as I could keep them, (but I didn't use Bushmaster or other "non-photonic interventions").

I'm wrestling now with some I flipped at 24" and I can't seem to hold them any smaller than 36-38". At that size they need to be in 5 gal pots, which is a pain. Seems like the bigger they are when I flip 'em, the more determined they are to try to become big-ass plants. Of course, this is just my experience with two strains, in dirt, under these lights.

But, you are correct, sir, I got good light penetration all the way down the 24-inchers, and the 3+ footers are doing okay, as well. I do subscribe to your philosophy of producing just usable bud, not lettuce and lumber. And 5-gal pots fulla wet soil are heavy, and my space is kinda tight so it's a drag for my sick old self to jockey them around to feed and maintain. Ankle-biters are preferable. And next time, coco, if not bubba-ponics.

My motto: "Shoot low, Sheriff-- I'm ridin' a Shetland!" :D

Best, Hermie

ledtime

08-19-2009, 08:12 PM

Weezard

08-19-2009, 08:34 PM

Weez,

I just got my meter in today. To be sure it was apples to apples I ordered the same one you have. 30 bucks shipped from Hong Kong.

It looks like my 120W light is just slightly weaker than yours. At 12" from the center of the light my meter is reading 1012. The beam angle on these 1W must be very narrow as when I go just slightly outside of the glass on the the light the intensity drops off significantly.

Nonetheless, the red/blue light is growing much better plants than just my all blue one.

That's lesson #1. Ya need at least 2 different colors for a healthy grow.

Remember I have the two different wavelengths of blue in my red/blue light as well.

This batch is MUCH MUCH more bushier with much less stretch. Most likely due to the increased light output from the red led's.

I think you'll find that it's the blue that produces shorter internodes.
I have to turn my reds down to control that 7th inning stretch.
3:10 = Tall.
3:7 = Not so tall

Just thought I would give you an update on my china lights. The 120W light only increases ambient temps by 3-4 degrees. Gotta love it!

Maybe one of these days I'll up the ante and build a 15W LED light like you have but for now this will do.

No need now.
All you need now is patience.

How are things for you down in Hawaii?

No wanna gloat, but every time I say, "It just can not get any better than this", it does!
[attachment=o225568]

Best end-game ever!:thumbsup:
Thanks for asking:jointsmile:

Aloha,
Weeze

ledtime

08-19-2009, 08:39 PM

In this 120W light I went with 100 red and 19 blue. Seems to be doing the trick.

I had two plants that for some reason have wild PH problems. Stretched a bunch and have PH problem signs all over. They were a good 3-4" taller than the others. I pulled them today as I feel correcting the problem and keeping them a reasonable size will be a tougher task than I'm willing to take on.

Well, at least I have an all blue light that I can turn on in flower if they start getting out of control! :D

Weezard

08-19-2009, 09:00 PM

In this 120W light I went with 100 red and 19 blue. Seems to be doing the trick.

Sounds like a good Bloom ratio.

I had two plants that for some reason have wild PH problems. Stretched a bunch and have PH problem signs all over. They were a good 3-4" taller than the others. I pulled them today as I feel correcting the problem and keeping them a reasonable size will be a tougher task than I'm willing to take on.

Well, at least I have an all blue light that I can turn on in flower if they start getting out of control! :D

And with your separate lights, you can use distance to "trim" the R B ratio that your girls "see".:cool:

Good work!:thumbsup:

Weeze.

oldmac

08-19-2009, 09:39 PM

Sorry not to answer ya, I got sidelined by some medical problems. Guess ya saw the measuring tape by now, those plants finished around 24". They had vegged to 20" before I was able to flip them.

Hey DH I hope you're doing better and it wasn't anything too serious.

St. 'Zard pointed out to me how foolish that question was, I had even blown the pic up to admire your work and did not notice the tape measure.:wtf:

That is one good working light if you managed to have only a 4" growth spurt after going to 12/12! And I feel your pain anytime I have a plant over 24" in my partnered grow. We had damn 4' suckers from the SS mom grow out, how people grow that tall on a regular bases is beyond me.

You didn't ask but I'd lean towards using buuba-ponics, much cleaner.
:thumbsup:

DreadedHermie

08-19-2009, 09:57 PM

You didn't ask but I'd lean towards using buuba-ponics, much cleaner.

If I had time to dial it in, I've always felt the absolute state-of-the-art would be aeroponics , probably a setup very similar to what you've talked about.

But my hobbies, frottage and mopery, are so time consuming! And introducing myself to all the neighbors (it's some silly court-ordered thing) really takes a chunk outta my day! :D

oldmac

08-19-2009, 10:53 PM

....ROFLOL :D

You really are busy. Maybe between your walks and rubbing you could dial it in! Sorry to hear about the court order. :wtf:
.

Weezard

09-21-2009, 03:28 AM

....ROFLOL :D

You really are busy. Maybe between your walks and rubbing you could dial it in! Sorry to hear about the court order. :wtf:
.

He no get tagged fo' mopery no mo'.
Bought a dog!:D

Nex' he gonna get a birdwatcher book to 'splain da binoculars, yah?:rastasmoke:

I hear da court order 'ting was a beeg mistake too.
She was way over 18, she jus' wasn't a mammal.;)
Badaboom!

Weeze.

ledtime

09-29-2009, 07:32 PM

Weez and DH,

I went through and read this entire thread again! It took me quite some time and a few beers. Here is what I have as a shopping list so far.....please let me know what I'm missing.

1. Six (6) LZ4-00R215 LedEngin 660nm Emitters
2. Two (2) LZ4-00B215 LedEngin 465nm Emitters
3. One (1) 12"x10.125" Heat Sink (Ebay Guy)
4. One (1) PLN-60-12 Mean Well Power Supply (Red LED's)
5. One (1) PLN-60-15 Mean Well Power Supply (Blue LED's)
6. One (1) 120mm Axial Fan

And of course wire and epoxy.

I do have four questions...

1. How do you power the Mean Well's? Is it just an AC cord plugged into an outlet?
2. Is the dial on the Mean Wells what controls dimming?
3. Do I have the right model driver for powering six reds?
4. What powers the fan?

I think that about sums up my post right now. With your answers I can then order the parts and get to building! Thanks in advance for the help!

Weezard

09-29-2009, 08:21 PM

Aloha, ledtime,

DH is the goto guy for meanwell info.:thumbsup:

But, if that "60" is the wattage? No.
6 X 15W. = 90W.
Best to use a 120W. supply for a 90W. load

I can tell ya that the fan is probably 12V. and can use the Red led supply.
I usually just use a cheap 12v. wall wart for the fan so I don't cornfuse the current limit supplies with an inductive load.:confused:

I do advise polishing the heatsink to a goodly shine and using good quality thermal transfer epoxy. The life of your leds depends on it.

Now, go beat that credit card like a red-headed stepchild. :D

Como mai.
Weeze

ledtime

09-29-2009, 09:15 PM

No credit cards for me....Been through that mess once. Never again. Funny, I am a red head. HA!

I'll wait on DH's response on those Mean Well drivers...

You think the heatsink has a big enough foot print? I want to cover 3'x3' and still get decent penetration.....

ledtime

09-29-2009, 11:35 PM

Weez,

Looking over some of my "notes" of this thread....

Does adjusting the voltage on the Mean Wells serve as the dimmer? I took what you wrote to hermie as you have to dial in the driver at the proper current and you adjust the voltage on the driver to dim them. Is that right?

If that's the case, and I use wall warts for the fans, then the only other thing I need to know is how are we supplying power to the LED drivers?

I guess I need some sort of bench supply to test those LED's...

DreadedHermie

09-30-2009, 12:21 AM

Okay:
4 -15W reds on a 60-12 is a match made in heaven! :angelsmiley:
Or even 3 -15's, if you're really pushing them.

I'd use 2 60-12's and use 8 reds. But do you have a bench supply? You want to be able to test the leds by running them up to 1200-1300mA each, and see what voltage it takes to push each individual led there. I make a little table and measure:

led #1 red:
10.3V gives 1.1A
10.4 " 1.1
10.5 " 1.2
10.6 " 1.2
10.7 " 1.3
10.8 " 1.3
10.9 " 1.4
11.0 Didn't dare push harder, gets expensive! :D

So this led'll be happy running at 10.6 -10.7V.

So, if you've got a bench supply, you can power up to 7 reds with it, and use it to match up your emitters while you build the light. :thumbsup:

If not, you've gotta guess where to set your voltage, so you wanna be more conservative.

Lemme know and we'll proceed from there.

I do have four questions...

1. How do you power the Mean Well's? Is it just an AC cord plugged into an outlet?

Yep. They come with a short 3-wire pigtail. Need to provide a supply cable, or at least the AC plug. Got a pic or two I'll post for ya, explains the coding.

2. Is the dial on the Mean Wells what controls dimming?

Sorta. there's 2 little trim pots inside. One controls voltage. I set that where I want it, under load, with the other trim pot (the "dimmer") up full. Then I turn down the dimmer pot until it just kicks in and starts dropping the voltage. That sets the current max so your leds will stay well-regulated. I leave the plastic covers off mine so I can adjust them, and since I do that anyway I put little heatsinks, CPU coolers, etc. on the heatsinks in the Meanwells.

3. Do I have the right model driver for powering six reds?

Talked about that already. Mastech makes a great power supply for ~$165 shipped. Model 3010, up to 30V. Highly recommended. If not, I've got some data on real-world measurements of the 15W's so we can get a safe guess where to run them. But you'll want two 60-12's if you no got bench supply.

4. What powers the fan?

A single 120mm computer fan, ($5) running at 12V. will cool your light jes' fine. I like things quiet, so I run 2 fans at 9V. (One would prolly do it.)with wall wart adapters. Power 'em off separate supplies for backup. Wallwarts are cheap. Led drivers, not so much. Using led drivers to power fans is jes' a waste, I think.

Weezard has used thermostatic switches to kick fans on and off. On lightweight lamps the start-up torque gives you a free mover. Lotsa possibilities. Are you mounting the fan flush against the fins, like the Procyon?

Hey, I see your new post while I'm writing this...

Get a mastech, you can run all 6 reds with it....

DreadedHermie

09-30-2009, 01:49 AM

If this is just a flowering light, a 1:4 or even 1:5 blue:red ratio is plenty blue. Your 2:6 design's got a 1:3 ratio goin' on. I found that bluer than I needed for flower; I jes' built it that way cause 'Zard said, "My next light will have 2 blues" (talkin' 'bout his 4+1 cake pan lamp). I didn't realize he was gonna run 'em with 10 reds! I later added a couple more reds to that lamp; it's an 8 + 2 now.

But it's nice to have that blue power available to stop stretch so it's hardly wasted. If you were cutting corners you could get by with a single blue , a 30-watt driver, and 4 reds. (Or up to 7 reds with a mastech 3010) In reality, the 30 watt drivers cost almost what the 60 watters cost, and running 2 blues would be pushing it. They'll actually take up to 18 watts or so...

Really, how you power the reds most efficiently depends on which ones match the closest in Vf.

If you are trying to flower a 3' sq area, that's the rough footprint of a 400HPS. I'd shoot for 200 watts of quality led power to match that. A 6+2 ledengin light will edge out a Procyon (also bluer than it needs to be for flower, IMO) but a 6+2's only 120 watts running flat out. Think I used to run one with 107 watts from the leds, not counting driver consumption. Compares more to a 250HPS, I guess.

I like to keep my light < 6" from the plant tops so it doesn't spread too far. Is that the shape you're trying to light-- 3 x 3? You can build the light to closely match your space. I'd probably use 2 lamps side-by-side for a 3 x 3 space, especially if you're looking for much penetration.

You might check your heatsink supplier. Sometimes 2 ship as cheap as one. You can power the blues from a single driver even if they're on different heatsinks. And you get a price break at 10 reds... Just thinkin' out loud, here...

Lessee, you could get 11 reds. Put 'em on 2 heatsinks, 6 on one, 5 on the other.

Power the closest-matched 7 with a mastech, the closest-matched 4 with a 60-12. (Notice I am using all my driver power). Run a blue on each light. If you want to add more blues, the 60-15 will accomodate you.

That's 195 watts of well-driven leds. Yowsa! (I'd prolly add a 3rd blue later, jes' cause there's enough 15V driver to do it.)

You could also cram 10 reds and 2 blues onto a single heatsink.

It ain't cheap to do this right. That's how come you hear some kids saying leds won't grow. All they've tried used shitty components, shitty matching, shitty drivers. Also how come the only lights that really perform are pricey. Top quality emitters and drivers aren't cheap. They shouldn't be. :thumbsup:

I'll keep an eye on ya. You can always add more emitters to your sink and run some more wire...

ledtime

09-30-2009, 03:20 PM

DH,

That all made perfect sense! I've been following this thread from the beginning. Right now I'm using a 120W lamp made out of 1W LED. It's doing the job, but not as good as I would like.

The way I see it is that if I'm going to run at least 120W it should be using LED's that I feel give me the most bank per watt. The 1W don't do that. I have supplemented with eight 23W CFL's. And the heat gets up there!

So right now I'm using 304 watts. I'll do 200 all day long!!!!!

I may entertain getting two heat sinks and making a monster! That actually sounds fun!

ledtime

09-30-2009, 03:54 PM

I have attached a quick "sketch" of the top of the light. I figured it would make sense if I did use two heatsinks, to connect them using a piece of aluminum with a slot down the center of it. That way I could adjust how far apart I want the light to be at any time easily.

Limited by the placement of the fan of course....

ledtime

09-30-2009, 09:26 PM

After laying it out thoroughly in CAD, I will not be able to cover enough space left to right. I would have to really make a light consisting of 5 pieces. A center piece and four "islands". One in each corner.

I figured a 90 degree beam spread at 6" above the plants. Making it a 1' diameter footprint per LED. It would take 13 red LED's to cover a 3'x3' space leaving little room to waste. There would be three reds on each island and one red and two blues on the center piece.

I'd need to use 5 fans, one for each sink, but they are cheap. In my head it's kind of like a chandelier.....

Anyone have any feedback on my idea? Is there an easier/better way to accomplish lighting a 3'sq. area?

Weezard

09-30-2009, 09:30 PM

"In my head it's kind of like a chandelier"

I see it!
Darn good idea!

Weeze.

DreadedHermie

09-30-2009, 10:56 PM

Let's talk fans....

The only part of your lamp that's gotta be in the grow chamber is the heatsink with wired leds attached. If you've got enough heatsink, (or wimpy-enough leds) you don't even need a fan. Remember, fans actually create more heat :eek: via motor operation, fan blade interaction with air molecules, etc. We just use fans to move heat where it does less damage. If you've checked out W.'s 10+2 lamp, he's got his sink cooling fan exhausting the heat out attached ductwork. Mine jes' fire in the general direction of my main exhaust, which is not so elegant. :o

There's a school of thought that tries to eliminate fans from led lamp design altogether. From a design perspective, it's a loftier aspiration. If your light's designed to operate without a fan, it can't overheat because of a fan failure. :thumbsup: Plus you save a couple watts on the fan motor, and a tiny bit of heat actually added by the fan's operation, etc.

I prefer to enter the battle planning to use enough concentrated watts to need a fan. This is war, baby! :gunfighter2: Plus, I like my electronics running cool. :cool:

But here's a thought: with the emitters spread out where the junction heat's not so concentrated -- if your heatsink is well-finned where it'll really catch some air -- you might be able to cool it with general circulation fans in the grow area, aimed so they just catch part of the heatsink. I played with this a bit while setting things up, and it seemed like it woulda worked. I'm kinda klutzy, though, and feel more confident with the fan stuck right to the sink.

A flaw in my design that's always griped me; I've got a fan running to cool the heatsink, but the "breeze" coming off the sink fan is firing 180deg away from the plants. :wtf:

Don't get me wrong, it works well. But I've been thinking of cutting a ~3" hole outta the center of a heatsink and mounting the fan so it cools the sink and fires the (slightly) warmed air downward at the plants. The cooling fan would then be functioning also as a circulation fan. It'd need a simple baffle to block the fan from simply pulling air straight through the hole. Just a thought--trying to redirect that wasted exhaust airflow into something beneficial.

Alternatively to the hub-and-spoke design, you could do a criss-cross design, or a square "catwalk" layout, too. Whatever layout you use, if your heatsinks are thermally connected, you don't need a fan behind every set of emitters. This is especially true with beefy, highly conductive heatsink stock.

I decided to think of my lights as "built-in;" after all, it's not like I'm running from room to room with the things--the flower room ain't goin' nowhere. So, rather than approaching the design from a traditional "portable" light paradigm, it became: "Okay, how do I light this specific space?" It's custom-made, baby! :pimp:

ledtime

10-02-2009, 07:13 PM

Hermie,

You made my head spin with that! I kept up though. Great ideas! No waste, that's the way to go.

I haven't put much thought towards this today or yesterday as work has kept me very busy.

After doing the math it would be easier to rig up some kind of light mover and use an 8+2 light. That should penetrate well. The mover on a 6' rail is like $160-$180. I could cut the rail to fit my space and eliminate the need to make a bigger/wider/crazier light. Just the extra LED's needed to make the big dog light I would like cost as much as the light mover. That's not taking into account the extra heat sink, fans, and LED drivers.

That way I can put the light 6" or so over the plants and they will all get even coverage! Would be a great SCROG experiment......

These CFL's are too hot. Room temps are 82 with the lights on and 73 with them off. Should be able to keep it in the 70's all LED.

Also noticed the other day that the three plants I have are all hermied. No pun intended. That's what you get for using bagseed. :-( Big let down. I need to get some good feminized ones for the new light.

DreadedHermie

10-02-2009, 07:47 PM

Are you still talking about a 3 x 3 space? That's a pretty short track!

If your emitters are grouped together or lensed so the light is acting like a single point source (capable of throwing "shadows") a mover might make sense in a long enough space. The dispersion (and reflections) you get with the 15W leds is quite even, and a mover would benefit them less than, say, a Procyon (because of its lensing).

I played around with covering a 3 x 3 space a bit. Best way to light it depends on what's in there, to a degree. 1 biggun? 4 @ 18" sq? A mixed bag of strains and ages? I'm liking the flexibility of 1, 2, even 3 lights you can move in close to the plants as opposed to the "hovering mothership" concept. Just able to hit the plants harder, seems like.

And if you're looking at heatsinks with 2.5" fins, those may be inconvenient to work with. :jointsmile:

ledtime

10-02-2009, 08:01 PM

Here are the heat sinks I found on Ebay. Nice. He has them in 10.125" wide. He just hasn't put that auction back up yet. $47 shipped per foot. 2.5" fins.

HEATSINK ALUMINUM EXTRUSION LARGE BIG 8.5" WIDE - eBay (item 170389589478 end time Oct-08-09 15:10:15 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/HEATSINK-ALUMINUM-EXTRUSION-LARGE-BIG-8-5-WIDE_W0QQitemZ170389589478QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item27ac02cde6&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14)

His 8.5" wide one has only 1" fins. And is $68.50 shipped for two 8.5" x 12" pieces. Better?

I could do two lights...but would still stay at a max of 8 reds due to the extreme cost of going beyond that.

I have to be sure I get seeds so I know exactly what I'm working with. If the 15W can throw the light nicely, then 8 reds should cover 3'x3' effectively. I use a DR100 which is lined in all silver. Very nice. Light bounces everywhere!!!

A scrog with four plants is the most I think I could ever fit. Especially if the light is doing it's job. So we would be looking at covering a level 3' sq area. Best due to the LED's lack of penetrating power.

So what do you think? Two 8.5" sinks, 8 reds, 2 blues, one mastech, one 60-12, one 60-15, and two fans?

If I do that would I mount the blues on the inner sides of the bottom of the sink so they stay towards the center of the room?

ledtime

10-02-2009, 08:06 PM

If I were to put it all on one sink it would look like this. Coverage area at 6" above plants would be 1'-11" x 1'-9-1/8". Not so great......Two lights sounds better.

DreadedHermie

10-02-2009, 10:06 PM

So what do you think? Two 8.5" sinks, 8 reds, 2 blues, one mastech, one 60-12, one 60-15, and two fans?

I have done it that way myself, and would do it again. Remember, that mastech will drive 7 reds. And that is kick-ass heatsink material. Easy to work. Hey, it's an investment--peeps always looking for stuff like that as scrap. Look at what folks are asking on the Bay for their used ham radio junk... After the collapse of civilization you will still be able to barter with fine heatsinks like those. :thumbsup:

7 reds and 1 blue make a nice little flowering light; better than a Procyon IMO. You wouldn't need the 60-12 yet.

You could also run the reds a tad cooler (~1100-1150mA), and build (2) 4+1 lights and still power all 8 reds with the mastech.

Then, you can add on whenever you want! I buy myself little presents like that...:thumbsup: I'd spring for 10 and save the $20, though.

If I do that would I mount the blues on the inner sides of the bottom of the sink so they stay towards the center of the room?

I'd like to get the Maestro to chip in on this one. Looks like his blues are mounted about as far apart as he can get them on his 10 + 2 light. Mine are spread out a ways, too-- that blue light has powerful effects and seems like once there's enough, it's enough. I think a more uniform distribution works well for me, despite my initial concerns with phototropism.

Reds seem different as far as coverage. I like having a red smack in the middle of the light; I just added some like that.

At 6" from the plants, having the emitters spaced closer than 6" but further than 3" apart looks like "ballpark optimum" spacing for these 15W. (That doesn't mean you gotta do that over an entire 9 sq.ft. area. Coupla concentrated areas (lamps / semi-point-sources) seem better to me than spreading your reds out too thin trying for "even" coverage over 3x3'.)

DEFINITELY would like to hear what other Ledengin 15w users think. These are just my off-the-cuff observations, based on few strains and little experience. No take to bank yet...:hippy:

DreadedHermie

10-02-2009, 10:26 PM

If I were to put it all on one sink it would look like this.

Yep, done it like dat, too, sorta. Added a red in the middle later; my blues were a bit further apart.

Damn! That is one intricate drawing! Beautiful! :thumbsup: (They will only give me crayons to work with...:sadcrying)

Don't sweat it too much; a layout that's great for 5 leds (like 5's on dice) becomes assymetrical when you add a 6th red after your ship comes in :dance:. De plants no keah! :thumbsup:

ledtime

11-18-2009, 12:42 AM

Weez or DH,

Don't both of you grow in coco? I wanted to start another DWC project but without the use of hydroton. It really was a PITA with it's swings the last go round.

Where do I start with coco? I'll do the reading if you could point me to a good thread that does it the way you do.

Thanks for the help guys!

DreadedHermie

11-18-2009, 02:08 AM

Well, I haven't found anything all in one place, at least on this board.

I haven't germed in coco yet. Just transplanted into it from various stages of soil grows.

My preferred method is cloning in rapid rooters, so that's what I'll do, and just plant into coco (in a 20oz beer cup) soon as I see roots coming out of the RR -- same as I do with soil.

In reality, I'll betcha cloning (or germing) right in the coco will work just as well. Just haven't tried that yet-- the RR's have been foolproof for me and @~.32ea it ain't worth messin' with.

I go from the 20oz. cup to a 6" netpot, or:

20 oz cup > 1 gal nursery pot > 8" netpot.

Unfortunately, my 1 gal pots are a tad bigger than my 6" netpots, but that'd be a direct swap if I had the right sizes.

Weez showed me a cool trick: you use the cup (or pot) your plant is in to mold a cavity inside the bigger pot--just pack moist coco all around the cup, remove the cup, and the plant drops right into the new hole.

That's about all there is to it. I set up nute level in the res about half an inch below the the bottom of the netpot. The bubbles splash the coco and the moisture is quickly distributed evenly throughout the medium. I've accidentally submerged the bottom of the netpot, and I've let the nute level drop a couple of inches, too. Neither boo-boo caused a problem. (This stuff is too easy. :thumbsup:) We used wicks into the res at first to make sure the coco got saturated, but it was unneccessary. And some of the wicks liked to grow bacteria, and we've both got warm res temps, so we both quit doin' dat.

My only concern at this point is if my tiny grow space will accommodate a DWC plant grown in coco its whole life. I may do a simple drip-to-waste in 3 gal coco pots just to keep the size under control. :thumbsup:

ledtime

11-18-2009, 03:01 AM

So there really is no trick? What about PH? Is it slightly higher than hydroton?

I too love rapid rooters. Works every single time for me. So, I too would go RR to coco.

DreadedHermie

11-18-2009, 09:16 AM

Maybe one trick--I use the Botanicare compressed bricks. Just expand with lightly nuted, cal-magged water. Some other types of coco may contain salt, presumably from the coconuts floating in sea water, and must be flushed. I've heard people complain about it, so I never stray...Jes' use da bricks--just add water for instant hydro, even in pots.

If you're doing DWC, it's like the coco's not even there. Just helps hold the plant, and coco's wicking properties make the transition easy when from a top watered pot to a bubble bucket.

I've run pH from 5.2 to 5.8 without problems. Like hydro. I've seen nutes "specially formulated for coco." Never even tried 'em. Using DynaGrow (for hydro) or Botanicare PBP. Regular hydro stuff, no additives. Just calmag cause I'm using distilled water. (OK, a little Cha-Ching at the end...;))

******

While the plant's in a pot, awaiting transplant into a bubblebucket:

I keep the pH of the pot contents at 5.2 to 5.5, as estimated by the runoff pH. Just treat it like hydro, except you don't have to battle the pH as with hydroton. With distilled water, I don't even need 'pH-down' much.

I water and feed alternately, with little or no runoff. (This is so easy...) You could do a real light nute solution every time (which is how life will be in the bucket) but that can require watering to significant runoff to prevent too much nute/salts buildup in the coco. Or just flush occasionally; just check the EC of your pot runoff to see when thatâ??s needed. I guess the point is, all these different things have worked for me. The medium is just very forgiving. :o

From now on, soil's just for moms, and anything else I might want to deliberately keep small and slow-growing.

Weezard

12-30-2009, 09:49 AM

Howzit, DH?

I just had a stoner thought.
Got a pile of peltier devices that I intended to use as active heatsinks.
Until I found out how much current they draw. Ouch!
Got a dozen of them on the shelf.
They work both ways.
Heat one side, and/or cool the other, and it acts like a thermocouple and generates current.

Then your idea of mounting the 15s on homemade "stars" got me thinkin'.
We're eating Watts to remove heat with the fan.

Perhaps we should stop seeing the heat as a waste product and put it to work for us.

Here's what I propose.
Epoxy one, or two 15 Watt Ledengin emitters to the chip side of the peltiers.
Then bolt the fin sides to a large heatsink with a fan.
Use the temperature difference to generate enough current to run the fan!
As the fan cools the big 'sink, it "bootstraps" the fan power a little more as the temp. difference increases.
Does that sound semi-sane.

I'll have to buy some emitters to try it with and see how many units it would take to run a fan.
Ambient can get to 90F. here, so a 50 degree difference would have to suffice.
If it works, it's self regulating!:cool:
And, dare I say, rather elegant.:thumbsup:
That's why I call this MMJ, Cogito.:jointsmile::detective1:

Aloha.

Weezard

Dutch Pimp

12-30-2009, 02:23 PM

The first person to develop an LED street light?...will be rich beyond their wildest dreams....:thumbsup:

DreadedHermie

12-30-2009, 06:14 PM

The first person to develop an LED street light?...Already done. Some company picked up the streets of some major city as a client...can't remember who or where ATM...:stoned:

What I see happening in the future is spinoff technology from the residential lighting market. Lotsa companies working on RGB emitters to light your home, with "color mixing" ability so you can dial up the exact "white" tone your eyes prefer with three little faders.

When those things get cheap/powerful enough they'll be a tunable grow light in the rough. (The red wave might not be as long as we'd like, though.) Dial up more blues for veg/stretch mitigation; more reds for flower. Bring up the midrange wavelength to experiment, produce "white light" via color mixing, etc.

oldmac

12-30-2009, 10:06 PM

Howzit, DH?

I just had a stoner thought.
Got a pile of peltier devices that I intended to use as active heatsinks.
[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=4]Until I found out how much current they draw. Ouch!

I recently asked you about 10w vs 15w LEDs from LedEngin's, and in your response you mentioned the Flea-bay heatsink dealer (I had already stumbled upon him). That led me to think about various other ways to cool an LED light. I had successfully used pelitier devices before to cool LNAs (low noise amplifiers) used in satellite communication dishes I had installed in the middle east. The problem that I found was for every watt of heat you wanted to get rid of it took a watt of electrical power to accomplish it. A 1 kw light required 1 kw worth of peletier to cool....not real economical.

And DH, has it right about street lights, they are doing it now. I believe that Cree has a deal with a Chinese city to deliever street lights. They should be able to copy the technology and sell it back to us for less! Can't wait!

Hey DP, nice to see you following along and chimeing in! :D

thepaan

02-09-2010, 02:56 PM

I just finished putting together a grow light using four LedEngin's deep red and one blue. It works like a champ. I mounted them all on one U81C (http://www.hypermicro.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=HSAL001A&type=0&eq=&desc=S939-2U-ALLUMINUM-HEATSINK-U81C-60NMC&key=it) and stuck it in a desk lamp so I could move it around but it is much heavier than I thought so I needed to prop it up. I attached an extra 80mm computer fan to the heatsink but I don't think it needs it because it is cool to the touch right by the LEDs after running all day. I recently checked Mouser for more of the 15W 660nm reds but, it appears they are no longer in production. I want to get some kind of enclosure going maybe underneath a sofa table or something.... I guess I'll have to figure something out with the 10W.

Weezard

02-09-2010, 07:25 PM

That is clever, and efficient!
Nice work, brah.

My 4:1 "cakepan" is my most versatile lamp.
Great vegger.
Very good budder too when ya back off the blue and snug it up a to the plants little.
Built 5 lesser lamps before it while dialing it in.
Looks like you did some serious study, then cut to the chase.:)
Impressive.:thumbsup:

Aloha

Weezard

Dutch Pimp

02-20-2010, 04:20 PM

:)...http://boards.cannabis.com/introduce-yourself/181455-just-another-crappy-day-paradise.html#post2071160

SupraSPL

02-26-2010, 09:25 AM

Weezard

02-26-2010, 10:12 AM

Hello fellas. I have been studying the LEDEngin PDFs trying to make some price and output comparisons. I couldn't find anywhere on the mouser site where the bin code is specified. When you buy them in small quantities do they specify the bin for you before you buy?

Could not find bin codes either.
Even on the 5 Watt stars.
Even on Ledengin's website.
Though I must admit I didn't look very hard.:)

Did not expect them on the 15 Watt emitters anyway.
(It was a short run. Kinda all one bin.)

Though DH was unhappy with the workmanship on some 15W. Ledengins as I recall.
Mine were quite uniform.:jointsmile:

And, while I lack the funds and patience for precise measurements, I still manage to cheaply gauge the relative output of narrow band leds.
[attachment=o238717]
My li'l redneck radiometer gives me an cheap n dirty method of comparing relative strength.:rastasmoke:
I'm a practical type.
I worry little about bins, minor variations, meaningless details, etc.
I'm jus' a bottom line, kine.

I read, a lot, then experimented.
Tested the concepts that I'd read about.
Each light taught me something about a plants needs.
Then I simplified.
Eliminated everything they didn't actually need.

BTW, that little 5 Watt stars array, grew some serious bud with 660 nm.reds, and "royal" blue.
But,
The 15 Watt emitter arrays:asskick:!!:cool:

Any way we can he'p, no be shy, brah.:)

Aloha,
Weezard

thepaan

02-27-2010, 12:37 PM

I was having problems with my plant after moving it inside from the roof this winter. First I thought it was too much water then the fertilizer. Turns out it was the light. 4 red and 1 blue 15W were burning the poor thing. I've got it under control now though. I went down to the store and bought one of those dome diffuse covers you can put on your hallway light and it went from yellow/brown to dark green in 2 days.

Just a tip for anyone having the same problem.

thepaan

03-01-2010, 10:03 AM

khyberkitsune

03-01-2010, 10:41 AM

So, I've been toiling over some math for the last few days and I think I have come up with something epic. From the top even though a lot is going to be repeat:

Photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) is the wavelength of light which plants respond to 400-700 nm. The daily light integral (DLI) measured in moles per square meter per day (mol/m2/d) says you need 22 or more to grow excellent crop plants. I couldn't find a listing for MJ but here is a chart (http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/HO/HO-238-W.pdf) (down on page 5) for a bunch of other plants. LEDs have light output measured in watts (W). 1 watt = 1 joule per second. I have calculated mol/J (and Âµmol/J) for every 10 nm between 400 and 700, inclusive and found the average. I then converted DLI (mol/m2/d) to Âµmol/m2/s for 12 hours of light and divided by the average Âµmol/J to get W/m2. Lastly, I multiplied by 60% which is the average efficiency of all wavelengths between 400 and 700 nm at driving photosynthesis (the idea being that deep red is 100% efficient).

This is the spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AlIFMFqXkch9dEdxS3NNd1VuLVJTVEJmSmZ5MzhzZ lE&hl=en) I came up with. It tells you how many red LEDs and from that you can figure out how many blue per square meter you should be using. What do you guys think?

I think that is a good approach and is great data - allow me to toss out another approach.

First, I kept in mind that plants pretty much adapted to their lighting environment. Light levels and spectral balance is somewhat important. Next, for the boundary between spring and summer, I checked with NASA records to check the insolation levels recorded at the edge of the atmosphere and at the edge of sea level - I noticed the balance, at least in terms of radiometric power, were almost even - blue was in the lead. Then I checked again for the beginning of September (bear all of this is for my old area, in Tennessee, I haven't checked to see if there has been any data for my area of Cali.) The ratio had changed , with red slightly in the lead. So I figured a 60:40 blue:red mix for vegetation, and a 60:40 red;blue mix for blooming. I might modify the panel once it arrives, see if I can't drop a dimmer on the blues so I can drop the blue down to help trigger flowering, and then bump it back up a little to provide some extra boost. I've always had poor yield results, especially with tomatoes and peppers, with those 7:1:1 panels. More blue is needed. Other lighting companies realized this and are starting to offer blue-dominant panels to supplement their lacking UFO panels. NASA realized their folly and some of the latest panel design I've seen from them is pretty much 1:2 blue:red (looks like 465 and 670nm.)

thepaan

03-01-2010, 11:48 AM

I think that is a good approach and is great data - allow me to toss out another approach.

First, I kept in mind that plants pretty much adapted to their lighting environment. Light levels and spectral balance is somewhat important. Next, for the boundary between spring and summer, I checked with NASA records to check the insolation levels recorded at the edge of the atmosphere and at the edge of sea level - I noticed the balance, at least in terms of radiometric power, were almost even - blue was in the lead. Then I checked again for the beginning of September (bear all of this is for my old area, in Tennessee, I haven't checked to see if there has been any data for my area of Cali.) The ratio had changed , with red slightly in the lead. So I figured a 60:40 blue:red mix for vegetation, and a 60:40 red;blue mix for blooming. I might modify the panel once it arrives, see if I can't drop a dimmer on the blues so I can drop the blue down to help trigger flowering, and then bump it back up a little to provide some extra boost. I've always had poor yield results, especially with tomatoes and peppers, with those 7:1:1 panels. More blue is needed. Other lighting companies realized this and are starting to offer blue-dominant panels to supplement their lacking UFO panels. NASA realized their folly and some of the latest panel design I've seen from them is pretty much 1:2 blue:red (looks like 465 and 670nm.)

Are you growing space-weed? What does the solar radiation at the edge of the atmosphere have to do with anything? I don't think the relative intensities of different wavelengths of sunlight have anything to do with it either. As green and yellow are also more dominant wavelengths than red (http://antrofisica.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/solar_spectrum2.jpg), your logic suggests you should add lots of those to your LED array. Let me know how that works out.

Where is this stuff saying blue light is better for driving photosynthesis? All the studies I've read say that photosynthesis only occurs at around 50% peak rate on blue light alone - the peak being around 670 nm. Blue light is only required for physiologicial and morphological responses. Again, all the studies I've read say between 8 and 20% of your light should be blue - depending on the plant. Also, flowering is a phytochrome response. It is triggered by the length of the dark period - not by the blue:red ratio of light. Weed is a short day facultative plant. If you have long dark periods you will be able to accelerate (or short nights will slow) flowering but it will eventually flower regardless of the light color/duration. I really don't understand why so many people have this misconception. Show me this latest NASA panel design too. I might have to eat my words here in the next few days. :P

khyberkitsune

03-01-2010, 01:28 PM

Are you growing space-weed? What does the solar radiation at the edge of the atmosphere have to do with anything? I don't think the relative intensities of different wavelengths of sunlight have anything to do with it either. As green and yellow are also more dominant wavelengths than red (http://antrofisica.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/solar_spectrum2.jpg), your logic suggests you should add lots of those to your LED array. Let me know how that works out.

I'm very confused as to how you managed to infer what you just stated from my post.

Where is this stuff saying blue light is better for driving photosynthesis?

http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/pigment.gif - something from an educational facility. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pFQ0wrHWd1k/St4V0NN2CuI/AAAAAAAAAFg/FGKwRvOB9g0/s320/action_spectrum_en.jpg - there's another.

All the studies I've read say that photosynthesis only occurs at around 50% peak rate on blue light alone

Depends on the plant being studied - not every plant responds the same - every species has vastly different requirements. For example Tradescantia pallida actually thrives under yellow and green light, which is why it does so well on the forest floor and in well-shaded areas. If you have the materials to conduct a colorimetric analysis, you will see that against a blackbody emitter, a tube filled with chlorophyll actually allows more red light to pass through than blue light. Actually, you can do this with a light bulb and a test tube full of centrifuged chlorophyll - put the light next to your head, hold tube in front of your face - the tube appears to be filled with green fluid. Put the tube between your face and the light, you see mostly red.

the peak being around 670 nm. Blue light is only required for
physiologicial and morphological responses.

Red is required for photomorphogenesis, root development, and for vegetative growth. Blue is for control of certain day-night reactions, seasonal identification, and most importantly, for actual plant growth and bulk. This is why CMH and MH are the recommended primary HID light source by large commercial-scale horticultural operations, and not HPS.

Again, all the studies I've read say between 8 and 20% of your light should be blue - depending on the plant.

Those NASA-conducted studies are old, and they recanted half of them, their new panel design has 33% blue, 67% red.

Also, flowering is a phytochrome response. It is triggered by the length of the dark period - not by the blue:red ratio of light.

That again depends on the species of plant - The phytochrome can also respond to the ratio of red versus blue and the intensity of both wavelengths in order to determine seasonal changes.

Weed is a short day facultative plant. If you have long dark periods you will be able to accelerate (or short nights will slow) flowering but it will eventually flower regardless of the light color/duration.

No, it will not eventually flower without regard to light color or duration unless you're growing a Ruderalis. How do you think we keep mother plants for decades?

I really don't understand why so many people have this misconception.

I think you have the misconception. I do this across the globe and don't get paid to be wrong. If I was wrong and selling a bad product, I'd have been sued already.

Show me this latest NASA panel design too. I might have to eat my words here in the next few days. :P

I knew I should have saved that picture or site link, because my panel manufacturer couldn't believe it either - but they were growing some sort of lettuce (THICK AS HELL) under 1:2 blue:red light. It's on one of the mission pages I was browsing through earlier this morning. I know it wasn't the PESTO mission page. Drat, which one was it?

Rest assured, more blue is the way to g - why else would manufacturers of those UFO LEDs with the "optimized" 7:1:1 ratio be suddenly selling 'supplementary' blue panels - if the ratios were optimized to begin with, why do you need a supplementary panel?

Also, the guy "stra8outaweed" on the forums will testify - more blue = better yield. Check his grows out.

Weezard

03-01-2010, 08:23 PM

Aloha Kyberkitsune

Excellent posts!:cool:
Kudos, Bro'!:thumbsup:

And Mahalo nui.
"you must spread..."

Weezard

RackitMan

03-02-2010, 02:37 AM

RackitMan

03-02-2010, 02:58 AM

I vegged 4 plants in a 2' * 2' area with soley a 50w blue LED panel (0.5w 10mm 560nm? LEDS) with great results. No white, no red.

khyberkitsune

03-02-2010, 03:16 AM

Years back people were discussing the idea of pulsing LEDs. The theory was that plants need so many milliseconds to chemically process photonic energy, so a continuous light source is a waste of energy. LEDs are the only current light source with fast enough switching times to take advantage by this fact.

Some estimates were that power savings might be in the 70-90% range if done properly. Can't be very difficult technically. Any experimenters/theorists here know why this idea has not caught on?

Anyone tried it?

I'm working on a pulsing unit that will take 1w Units, pump 3w through them, maintain a low thermal profile and even maintain the long life of the LED. Current tests are giving promising results (not in growing, just pulsing the diodes and watching to see how they respond,) and it looks like we might be able to offer high-powered solutions at a much cheaper cost than the competition.

RackitMan

03-02-2010, 04:45 AM

What is the theoretically optimal on/off time period?

Does overdriving the 1w LEDs to 3w increase the light output roughly 3 times?

khyberkitsune

03-02-2010, 05:05 AM

What is the theoretically optimal on/off time period?

Does overdriving the 1w LEDs to 3w increase the light output roughly 3 times?

Depends on the duty cycle used. We're playing with 10% duty cycle right now.

As for putting out 3 times as much light, sadly no, the best we're getting is about 2.3x. There's always a ROI wall that you hit, and it's all in the materials used for the construction of the diode.

williston

03-02-2010, 10:33 PM

found this info awhile back...think it came from knna.

PWM is of course a choice to dimming LEDs, but in general, direct dimming, meaning using a lower current level is way more efficient, at least from a energy efficiency standpoint.
Here we need to take a second, and think this question carefully.
First off, PMW refers to a way of dimming electronic devices by switching on/off very fast. The effect on the output of the circuit depends of its topology. It may produce a reduced continous current, or switching on/off LEDs aswell.
On many commercial drivers, dimming is achieved by a PWM signal, but the output to LEDs is continous, not switched.
A true PMW driver that gives the output to LEDs switched aswell, may be carefully designed to avoid transients. The highest the frecuency used, more problematic becomes the design. When using very high switching frecuencies, with individual pulses on the nanoseconds or still shorter durations (hundred of picoseconds), not all electronic components are able to handle it. Rise and fall time responses of components used must me considered.
In general the shorter PWM pulses used are in the range of microseconds. Response time of most LEDs are of a few nanoseconds. Going shorter is impossible with standard equipment.
As reference to those not used to the metric system, those prefix are diminutives:
mili: 1/1000. or 10^-3
micro: 1/1000000 or 10^-6
nano: 1/1000000000 or 10^-9
pico: 1/1000000000000 or 10^-12
Second consideretion, that refers to the nergy efficiency of the system. A LED is always less efficient as the current level goes up. So PWM is always less efficient electrically. Thus, any photosynthetic gain from the pulsed light might should compensate the lower efficiency emitting light.
The highest the peak current used, for the shorter pulses, the lower the efficiency.
Most experiments with pulsed light on plants are performed in the range of hundred of microseconds, up to a few miliseconds.
In this sense, what matter is the averaged voltage and current over a second period.
Say you are using a 50% PMW scheme: half time on, half time off. During that time you use half the current than if you were using continous. For example, 1A on continous mode equals to 2A peak current with a 50% PWM scheme (at least, it happen with relatively long pulses, as they go shorter, raise and fall time of the components may vary the average). From a current standpoint, both ways are the same. But not if you see at voltage, because voltage required to run LEDs at 2A is higher than to run them at 1A. Thus the average power burned is going to be slighty higher over a second period on the PWM scheme (how much? check datasheet for how much higher is Vf at 2A than at 1A).
Not only that, the LED not emits double light at 2A than at 1A, but way less. So the PWM scheme burns more power and emits less light. The highest the difference between the current used (thus, the higher the PWM frecuency used), the highest the efficiency loss.
Still when using relatively long pulses, a loss of 25% of energy efficiency is pretty common. Any photosynthetic gain from pulsing might be over 25% to worth doing it.
For sure. Always take in mind that voltage-current response curve of LEDs is exponential. Little increases on voltage leads to huge increments on current. What destroy LEDs is excess current. A peak current over specs result on the breakage of the very thin gold wires inside the LEDs, that act as a fuse. Often there is a wide margin for it, as many LEDs rated for 1A may support currents over 2A, and those rated to 2A often support 3A and more, but once you are over specs, you never know when its going to fail.
Notice that the study focused on the different ways of giving light to plants, for given amount of light. Its not interested on study how efficiently is that light delivered, that is an important part of the equation on actual applications.
And notice that when used 2ms pulses, photosynthesis for equal amount of light reduced to half. Why messing with pulsing then?
Aditionally, light densities used, 50 uE/m2 are very low in actual conditions. We use densities 10X of that on our grows (and same for tomato grows).
The study used a PWM scheme 150us long (148.5 off/1.5on), a 1% PWM (1%on/99%off). As a second has 1000000 us, 1000000/150=6666 cycles per second= 6666Hz= 6.67KHz was the frecuency used.
micro=μ. But for keiboard confort, u is often used instead of μ. So a microsecond is written us instead of μs, and a microEinstein, uE instead of μE (a Einstein is a mol of photons, 6.02 *10^23 photons).
pico is 1/1000 of micro.
I have linked a thread about it on my sign. But for doing it, lm emission (way better, mW emission) must be know accurately, aswell as the spectrum. With unkown bins, its impossible to know it.
Glad to find people who likes to experiement. Sure your experience is going to be usefull for all us.
:Peace: knna

khyberkitsune

03-03-2010, 12:04 AM

Good info. It is important to note that the actual construction of the substrate itself, besides the gold microfilaments. Typically it is some indium-gallium alloy on a sapphire substrate (one reason LEDs are so expensive) and those do not overdrive very well, also the material design just doesn't lend itself well to higher emissions at higher current and voltage ramps, you end up with more heat loss than photon output. The key for making PWM viable in any sort is to find a diode alloy that lends itself well to overdriving (I would think a harder alloy would tolerate higher temps better - indium and gallium are very soft metals,) and without losing much to heat as you overdrive the bulb. This is probably a few years away.

Also, it is important to know which waveform you are using to overdrive - sine, square, triangle, saw, all will affect how the duty cycle performs.

thepaan

03-14-2010, 01:37 PM

I checked with NASA records to check the insolation levels recorded at the edge of the atmosphere... I noticed... blue was in the lead... So
I figured a 60:40 blue:red mix for vegetation

Are you growing space-weed? What does the solar radiation at the edge ofthe atmosphere have to do with anything? I don't think the relative intensities of different wavelengths of sunlight have anything to do with it either. As green and yellow are also more dominant wavelengths than red your logic suggests you should add lots of those to your LED array. Let me know how that works out.

I'm very confused as to how you managed to infer what you just stated from my post.

Does that make it clear? I mean, you wrote it - not I. Maybe you meant something else by all that....

http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/pigment.gif - something from an educational facility. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pFQ0wrHWd1k/St4V0NN2CuI/AAAAAAAAAFg/FGKwRvOB9g0/s320/action_spectrum_en.jpg - there's another.

I'm not sure you know what you are looking at. The first image is the relative absorption by wavelength of different pigments in solution (that means in a test tube in a laboratory). It really doesn't show how well a living plant uses each wavelength. Why did you pick one that includes pigments found only in algae? Lets try not to present irrelevant information - people might be mislead. The pigments of note there are chlorophyll a and b. They absorb blue light but it doesn't drive photosynthesis efficiently because they have to down-shift (for lack of a better descriptive word) the energy level in order to transfer it to the P680 and P700 dimers (remember, a lower wavelength has higher energy) which are the cores of photosystem II and I, respectively. On top of that, virtually every other pigment (reference here QUANTITATIVE ABSORPTION SPECTRA OF THE COMMON CAROTENOIDS -- Miller 9 (3): 693 -- PLANT PHYSIOLOGY (http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/9/3/693) and here THE PREPARATION AND ABSORPTION SPECTRA OF FIVE PURE CAROTENOID PIGMENTS -- Zscheile et al. 17 (3): 331 -- PLANT PHYSIOLOGY (http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/17/3/331)) in a plant also absorbs in the blue range and their energy is not always transferred to the dimers or suffers from the same requirement for down-shifting the energy. Furthermore, there is some loss involved when transferring energy from one pigment to another which accounts for even more inefficiency. The second image is a crappy representation of PAR, it is just wrong in so many ways.

Counterpoint: I present this document. I realize it isn't an actual study but I can't find a copy of the one they cite as the source of the data. http://envsupport.licor.com/docs/TechNote126.pdf Figure 1a shows leaf absorption spectra. Compare to your second absorption image and to the absorption spectra on page 4 of this study The Photosynthetic Action Spectrum of the Bean Plant -- Balegh and Biddulph 46 (1): 1 -- PLANT PHYSIOLOGY (http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/46/1/1) and notice how 6 different species of plants represented on page 6 (labeled page 375) in this study Absorption Spectra of Leaves. I. The Visible Spectrum -- Moss and Loomis 27 (2): 370 -- PLANT PHYSIOLOGY (http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/27/2/370). Furthermore, in that last study, notice how on page 10 and beyond they show that as you destroy the leaf the absorption characteristics change to show the absorption of the base components - such that the absorption begins to look more and more like your first image the more desiccated the leaves become. I cannot make this clear enough; absorption is not a measure of response.

Figure 1b shows action relative to incident energy. Remember, different wavelengths of light have different energy? When you weight the amount of photosynthesis that occurs (measured from the amount of oxygen produced) by the energy of each wavelength you get something that shows how low-energy waves (670-680 nm) elicit a greater response than the high energy waves of 450 nm. Compare to page 3 of this study Photosynthetic Action Spectra of Trees: I. Comparative Photosynthetic Action Spectra of One Deciduous and Four Coniferous Tree Species as Related to Photorespiration and Pigment Complements -- Clark and Lister 55 (2): 401 -- PLANT PHYSIOLOGY (http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/55/2/401) showing the relative rate of photosynthesis of 5 different trees. Notice how all 5 of them produce oxygen at a high rate in the red but somewhere between a lowered rate and a negative rate in the blue. That's correct: a negative rate. The Blue Spruce actually stops photosynthesizing and begins photorespiration under exclusive blue light instead of photosynthesis.

Figure 1c shows action relative to quantum absorbed. "Quantum" in this case is the number of light particles absorbed (light is both a particle and a wave). Higher-energy wavelengths need fewer particles to have the same intensity. The higher-energy 450 nm light gets an advantage in this one and yet, it is still only 70-80% as efficient as 640 nm light. Compare again to the action spectra on page 4 of this study The Photosynthetic Action Spectrum of the Bean Plant -- Balegh and Biddulph 46 (1): 1 -- PLANT PHYSIOLOGY (http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/46/1/1).

What we gather from all this is first, all plants have a similar response to all wavelengths. Second, this response is maximal in the red - specifically red peaks which correspond to chlorophyll a and b. When measuring by energy, which is what the output of LEDs is given in, (as opposed to quanta) of light, blue is only half as efficient as red. From this we can deduce that the most efficient way to cause a plant to produce oxygen, which is the measure of the rate of photosynthesis or the rate of response, is by exposure to red light corresponding to the red peaks of chlorophyll.

Depends on the plant being studied - not every plant responds the same - every species has vastly different requirements. For example Tradescantia pallida actually thrives under yellow and green light, which is why it does so well on the forest floor and in well-shaded areas. If you have the materials to conduct a colorimetric analysis, you will see that against a blackbody emitter, a tube filled with chlorophyll actually allows more red light to pass through than blue light. Actually, you can do this with a light bulb and a test tube full of centrifuged chlorophyll - put the light next to your head, hold tube in front of your face - the tube appears to be filled with green fluid. Put the tube between your face and the light, you see mostly red.

See above. It is true that not all plants respond the same but all plants respond similarly. This includes your tradescantia pallida which Floridata: Tradescantia pallida (http://www.floridata.com/ref/t/trad_pal.cfm). It does well on a forest floor because it tolerates that type of light (not to be confused with requiring it). The color, which is from the excessive anthocyanin (another accessory pigment and the giveaway that I was recently burning my Jalapenos) allows it to thrive better in (again, does not require) the shade - absorbing wavelengths that most plants don't block (reference here (http://books.google.com/books?id=aSIzfQ93PlAC&pg=PA313&lpg=PA313&dq=tradescantia+pallida+absorption+spectrum&source=bl&ots=Z5Owfd_rXC&sig=2j4LWWB9Vrqa8i4Xjt_2Ct1nWSc&hl=en&ei=CnaMS-HBBZWXkQXpv5GfDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=&f=false) for absorption and compare to transmission of a leaf on page 2 of this study Far-Red Light Reflection from Green Leaves and Effects on Phytochrome-Mediated Assimilate Partitioning under Field Conditions -- Kasperbauer 85 (2): 350 -- PLANT PHYSIOLOGY (http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/85/2/350)). While the pigment does absorb strongly in the yellow region, just like any other accessory pigment, it suffers from a requirement to down-shift the energy in order to pass it to a photosystem dimer and move electrons. This makes it still less efficient than stimulating chlorophyll directly, which all plants contain. As for your colorimetric analysis - we are back to confusing absorption for response.

Red is required for photomorphogenesis, root development, and for vegetative growth. Blue is for control of certain day-night reactions, seasonal identification, and most importantly, for actual plant growth and bulk. This is why CMH and MH are the recommended primary HID light source by large commercial-scale horticultural operations, and not HPS.

Physiological and morphological responses = control of certain day-night reactions and seasonal identification so at least we agree on something. However, you are dead wrong on plant growth. Plant bulk is directly related to how much photosynthesis takes place and, as I showed it to be true above, that rate is much higher for a given amount of red light. Show me some evidence and I'll consider changing my stance. Metal Halide lamps are recommended for the amount of light they give off. The spectral content is leveraged only as a marketing ploy to discredit High Pressure Sodium lamps. And, it may be true that MH is better than HPS but at that point we are talking about blue light compared to orange light.

Those NASA-conducted studies are old, and they recanted half of them, their new panel design has 33% blue, 67% red.

The only lighting panel designed for NASA growing chambers that I have ever seen is here WCSAR - Advanced Astroculture (http://wcsar.engr.wisc.edu/advasc.html) and has blue LEDs delivering maximum light just under 20% of the red maximum intensity. If you have something newer, then it better be newer than 2006.

That again depends on the species of plant - The phytochrome can also respond to the ratio of red versus blue and the intensity of both wavelengths in order to determine seasonal changes.No, it will not eventually flower without regard to light color or duration unless you're growing a Ruderalis. How do you think we keep mother plants for decades?

Phytochrome definately can not detect ratio of red to blue. If it can, then where is this third form of it which you have discovered? Are you going to call it Pb (phytochrome blue) to keep with the nomenclature for Pr (phytochrome red) and Pfr (phytochrome far red)? It is true that flowering is not limited to the phytochrome response and phytochrome responses are not limited to flowering. But then, I never said that it was. Let us keep in mind here that we are only talking about one species.

It appears cannabis is either a short day obligate, short day facultative, or day-neutral. So, you may be correct in some cases but the point is flowering related to light exposure is caused by the length of the dark period and not the ratio of blue to red. In the case of non-obligate strains it will eventually flower on its own regardless of light quality.

Chapter 1, page 3 : here Marijuana Botany: Propagation and ... - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=_aK7dTNS1qkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn:091417178X&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false) "Cannabis flowers when exposed to a critical day length which varies with the strain. Most strains have an absolute requirement and less than this will result in the formation of unformed flowers only." (obligate) published in 1981.

Cannabis sativa is a SDP facultative http://www.lhup.edu/smarvel/biol206/notes/Photomorphogenesis.doc

Wikipedia lists cannabis as short-day facultative but take that with a grain of salt....

More on plant flowering: floinduc (http://www.public.iastate.edu/~zool.533/lectures/flower.htm)

I think you have the misconception. I do this across the globe and don't get paid to be wrong. If I was wrong and selling a bad product, I'd have been sued already.

There are many ways to make money with a mediocre or even bad product. That you say you are successful is more of a tribute to your ability to make a sale and less of a sign of a quality product. Haven't you ever heard of magic beans?

I knew I should have saved that picture or site link

How convenient.

McLuvin

03-14-2010, 02:11 PM

Sorry I know this is off topic but "DreadedHermie" I love your avatar man!

I do know about LED's and work with the technology but your question is a little too deep for me to try and answer.

khyberkitsune

03-14-2010, 06:55 PM

"However, you are dead wrong on plant growth. Plant bulk is directly related to how much photosynthesis takes place"

Know I know you're just dead wrong. Grow tomatoes under pure red light (which provides the greatest quantity of photosynthesis) and get back to me on your results. The kind people over at greenpinelane already went through this about half a dozen times, over and over again. YOU NEED BLUE LIGHT FOR BULK. Again, this is why metal halide and CMH are used in large-scale commercial horticultural operations.

Want to place a bet on who is right and who is wrong? I do this GLOBALLY for a living. If I were wrong about this, I'd have been sued by many LARGE global corporations A LONG TIME AGO, and not only that but those corporations with on-staff PhDs in plant biology would have outed me LONG ago. Instead, I keep getting calls asking "When is your new phosphor blend going to be available! when is your new diode emitter design going to be finished? have you finished research on your new HID light? Here's a bonus reward for improving our operations and productivity!"

Yea, while all those scientific studies you point out are nice, the plain and simple tested proven fact for the past 50 years is YOU NEED BLUE LIGHT, and in FAR greater quantities than what NASA determined originally.

As for the picture - How convenient? Not my fault NASA updates their pages fairly frequently with different images! What, you expect a constantly-updating mission to keep the same page, images, or even text? I most certainly hope you don't, that would be rather fallacious.

Weezard

03-14-2010, 08:13 PM

Aloha Thepaan
Aloha Khyberkitsune

You are both bringing useful information here.
Mahalo!

I think, "What we have here is a failure to communicate."
Theory and practice, yah?:)
Bottom line?
We have similar goals.:greenthumb:

Contention can breed information, but I think co-operation will get us farther, faster.

Ego banging is always a waste of time n energy
You are both intelligent and articulate writers.
You both have valid positions on most issues.
"Add flexibility to certainty and solid facts will provide a platform for fruitful debate." -Aargon Zark;)

In Hawaiian, this is all summed with one word

Kokua!

We will all profit from mutual respect.:cool:

Alo Ha, gentlemen.

Weezard

thepaan

03-15-2010, 10:58 AM

I totally hear you Weezard. I hope somone can benefit from the discussion we have had.

Khyberkitsune, I'm not saying I won't change my mind but, as yet, I suppose we shall agree to disagree.

I apologize if I offend. I know I'm easily a hot-head but, in this case, It is not my intention and I've made a concious effort to keep all statements relative to discussion. (You should have seen my previous post before I edited it :P)

Anyway, in the fashion of Weezard;

Mahalo.

mrnobody

05-10-2010, 08:53 AM

"Show me some evidence and I'll consider changing my stance. Metal Halide lamps are recommended for the amount of light they give off. The spectral content is leveraged only as a marketing ploy to discredit High Pressure Sodium lamps. And, it may be true that MH is better than HPS but at that point we are talking about blue light compared to orange light."

A CD spectrometer (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~zhuxj/astro/html/spectrometer.html)

Even with basis tests you can see that a Metal halide as a more complete spectrum hence why plants like them more. As far as I can see this whole thread has been centrered around the blue/red ratio. surely just growing under red/blue can only be supplemental in the long term. Yes it works, yes blue lights Veg lovely plants. Its fact now. The mix is very relevent as the plants thrive on both red and blue through all stages of growth, just like outdoor green. There is also a lot of research to show that the important characteristics of the finished product are better when treated with more of the light we cannot see. At the very end of the visible light spectrum. There is also a lot to be said about moonlight on a plants life cycle too. AS professional growers of commercial crops know to sow when the moon is high as the gravity as an effect on root development. Its these factors i think that are more important than a red/blue mix. WE should be looking towards continuos spectrum lighting.

Weezard

05-10-2010, 09:11 AM

"WE should be looking towards continuos spectrum lighting. ":S2:

Well, YOU, go right ahead my good man.:thumbsup:

You might be on to something.:cool:

My take?
Been dere,
Done dat.
Over it.

I find 150W. dichroic, efficient and sufficient to my needs.:jointsmile:
There is so little "room for improvement" at this point, that motivation is severely lacking.

In Pidgin: Why bodda?

In udder words:
Show me sumpin a'ight?

Aloha,
Weezard

demoreal

05-10-2010, 09:29 AM

This thread is really nice.
ummm, thats all.

Weezard

06-14-2010, 02:07 AM

This thread is really nice.
ummm, thats all.

Das genug!
Plenty, even.:jointsmile:

Gives me da warm fuzzies to hear that you got sumpin' from it.:cool:

Was fun, and useful when we did it.
The commercial led builders are catching on/up, fast.:D

Guess we're gonna have to find anudder bleeding edge to surf.

Aloha Y'all

Weezard

Weezard

11-22-2010, 10:59 PM

:bump2:

Why?
Why not?:)

Weeze.

Slevinkal

11-22-2010, 11:54 PM

Works for me :thumbsup:

mx4intx

02-14-2011, 10:58 PM

Weezard

02-14-2011, 11:28 PM

Anyone have any suggestions for a quick cheap way to safely power 12 ledengin 5 watters? 4 blue 3.6Vf, 4 red 2.5Vf, 4 deep red 2.8Vf. They are all 1000mA.

I was thinking 3 series strings in parallel to the PSU? But I am not sure how to do the circuit calcs. The online calcs wont let you mix and match that way.

There's a reason fo' dat.
No can!

Blues wants, 14.4V.
Reds, 10.0
Deep reds, 11.2

However, using an LM 317 current limit supply will only need about 2V.
headroom.
Find a 40V. 2A supply and throw 1. cheap, 3 terminal chip an; 1, resistor at it and you are done.
Need details? Jus' ask.

Aloha,
Weezard

mx4intx

02-14-2011, 11:47 PM

There's a reason fo' dat.
No can!

Blues wants, 14.4V.
Reds, 10.0
Deep reds, 11.2

However, using an LM 317 current limit supply will only need about 2V.
headroom.
Find a 40V. 2A supply and throw 1. cheap, 3 terminal chip an; 1, resistor at it and you are done.
Need details? Jus' ask.

Aloha,
Weezard

Sounds like you are saying throw 40vdc into a lm317 and run it all in series?

mx4intx

02-14-2011, 11:55 PM

I was also wondering how bad ass a heatsink would have to be to dissipate the heat if these were all mounted tightly packed together to act as more a single source of light?

Weezard

02-14-2011, 11:56 PM

Sounds like you are saying throw 40vdc into a lm317 and run it all in series?

Zackly!

Try it, you'll like it!:)

Aloha, Weeze

mx4intx

02-15-2011, 12:00 AM

khyberkitsune

02-15-2011, 01:00 AM

I was also wondering how bad ass a heatsink would have to be to dissipate the heat if these were all mounted tightly packed together to act as more a single source of light?

300w packed into an 8.5x16x2.5 inch space took quite a hefty heat sink and heat plate and fans for me to get it stable and operational.

Weezard

02-15-2011, 02:04 AM

Mahalo Weezard! That makes it simpler. I have the LEDs in hand but nothing else yet. I'll be sure to post it all when it's done. I have been reading LED threads all over including this one twice and you've been quite the inspiration in a few of them.

I noticed that you did some reading before posting.:cool:
Can't tell ya how much that pleases me!:)

Mahalo nui right back atcha, brah.
You slogged through all dat mess, twice!?
You deserve a synopsis.:jointsmile:

The LM 317 is an easy beastie
Just hang a 1 ohm, 10 W. resistor in series with your load and tie the load end of the resistor to the Adj. pin.
[attachment=o265844]
It's actually a voltage regulator, but if we pull current through the resistor, the 317 will try to maintain a 1.2V. difference between its output pin and it's adjust pin.
To do so, it is forced to regulate the current for us.

Automagically adjusts all the junction drops for us too.
1 amp. is 1 amp.!
Or, in this case, ~1.25 A.:)
Max onna regulator, and emitters, is 1.5 Amp
I use a heatsink from a stereo power Ampilifier that I spotted in a dumpster.
One channel was fried, but the heatsinks were beeg!
And free!:hippy:
[attachment=o265845]
And, as it turns out, jus' da right size with a small fan.
I use a single muffin fan to cool the chips and the pwr. supply module.
[attachment=o265847]
Stripped them, polished, drilled, bolted 10. deep red 5W, stars onnem and 3 Royal blue, 5W. Ledengins.
Used dropping resistors for the first grow, then realized it was a great budding light and got serious about safety and longevity.

Retrofitted some cheap current regulation and relaxed a little.:rastasmoke:
[attachment=o265846]

Loaned it to a friend when I built da 2 beeg lights.
He grew fat buds with it!
Now it's back in harness for my momma plants.

Now, aintcha glad ya asked?;)

I'll be followin' your log.:thumbsup:

Aloha,
Wee 'zard

mx4intx

02-15-2011, 02:14 AM

Weezard

02-15-2011, 02:23 AM

Nice! I am glad I asked. My big problem is finding a cheap small 40V 2A supply. I already have a homeless 19V 2.1A laptop supply. I may end up just splitting the blue and red into two independent strings.

That's what I ended up doing on one of the arrays.
Used dropping resistors.:(

The laptop supplies are excellent and can mount piggyback on the 'sink.
Hope ya no mind if a watch.

Aloha,
Weeze

mx4intx

02-15-2011, 08:20 PM

I think that this will take care of any cooling issues

used Aluminum Heat Sink 9 7/8" x 6" x 2 ", 388sq Dissip - eBay (item 180626613955 end time Feb-22-11 11:05:02 PST) (http://cgi.ebay.com/used-Aluminum-Heat-Sink-9-7-8-x-6-x-2-388sq-Dissip-/180626613955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0e2f66c3)

And I know I have some old pc fans laying around too. This will take care of the 24V

SCHIELE SYSTRON PS 24V 2.423.417.00 POWER SUPPLY - eBay (item 280618533522 end time Feb-18-11 10:27:33 PST) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280618533522)

Wont be too much longer before I start building this thing I hope.

khyberkitsune

02-15-2011, 11:57 PM

That's what I ended up doing on one of the arrays.
Used dropping resistors.:(

The laptop supplies are excellent and can mount piggyback on the 'sink.
Hope ya no mind if a watch.

Aloha,
Weeze

Just don't use HP laptop power supplies, they get way too hot.

Even this 65w power supply next to my DV7 is keeping my sake VERY warm.

mx4intx

02-17-2011, 09:19 PM

Anyone have a different source for those thermal pads Luxeon sells? Everything else is here or on the way other than I need to buy some wire.

mx4intx

02-18-2011, 11:20 PM

I got this...SEKISUI 5760 Dbl Sided Thermal Tape

khyberkitsune

02-19-2011, 02:28 AM

I would recommend against thermal pads, and I would use a true thermal adhesive.

Arctic Silver works great.

mx4intx

02-19-2011, 12:45 PM

Have you used the thermal tape?

mx4intx

02-19-2011, 01:17 PM

How does it not fall into the "true thermal adhesive" category since that is the exact reason it is manufactured?

khyberkitsune

02-19-2011, 07:11 PM

How does it not fall into the "true thermal adhesive" category since that is the exact reason it is manufactured?

Thermal conductivity, number one reason.

Thermal pads/tape are notoriously bullshit, and very low TC.

mx4intx

02-19-2011, 08:02 PM

Weezard

02-19-2011, 09:06 PM

I have seen it recommended for high powered LEDs in threads just like this one. More than once. This was based on the heat transfer and the fact that you can remove the led's much easier than you can with epoxy.

I also just found a thread abount the AS adhesive compared directly to thermal tape at overclockers cafe. The tape wasnt too far behind in my opinion. Especially for this application.

I guess I will just have to see for myself.

Aloha MX

I've seen the kapton tape builds.
And I've used the thermal epoxy.
I have zero actual experience with the tape so can't condemn or promote it.

But, I can say that the stars mounted with heatsink compound and bolts do run cooler than the thermal adhesive mounts according to my "Tempgun" readings from face of the emitters.

I don't math around much, I jus' measure.:)
Pragmatism uber alles appeals to da terminally lazy!:D

As for the tape?
"Good enough" is also a working model.:cool:
Time spent agonizing over nits, is time lost growing buds, yah?

Jus' my take on it.

Aloha Y'all
Weezard

mx4intx

02-19-2011, 10:28 PM

Aloha MX

I've seen the kapton tape builds.
And I've used the thermal epoxy.
I have zero actual experience with the tape so can't condemn or promote it.

But, I can say that the stars mounted with heatsink compound and bolts do run cooler than the thermal adhesive mounts according to my "Tempgun" readings from face of the emitters.

I don't math around much, I jus' measure.:)
Pragmatism uber alles appeals to da terminally lazy!:D

As for the tape?
"Good enough" is also a working model.:cool:
Time spent agonizing over nits, is time lost growing buds, yah?

Jus' my take on it.

Aloha Y'all
Weezard

Good enough is good enough for now. I can improve it later. Nice to hear from you Weezard. When I upgrade I'll probably have to bolt them down anyway since I'll want more light and it will mean a lot more heat. I am probably going to order one more blue LED for now since the PSU will support it. That makes 5 blue 460nm, 4 660nm, and 4 625nm. I figure it might help keep the plants a bit shorter anyway since most people advise a low dense grow with LEDs.

Peace

Weezard

02-19-2011, 11:22 PM

Good enough is good enough for now. I can improve it later. Nice to hear from you Weezard. When I upgrade I'll probably have to bolt them down anyway since I'll want more light and it will mean a lot more heat. I am probably going to order one more blue LED for now since the PSU will support it. That makes 5 blue 460nm, 4 660nm, and 4 625nm. I figure it might help keep the plants a bit shorter anyway since most people advise a low dense grow with LEDs.

Peace

Wow!
That's a metric shitload of high energy light.
That ratio will make for very squat gals.
Perhaps too squat, (depending on relative efficiency of the emitters). :)

I suggest that you put a dimmer in-line with the blue string so you can trim the B:R to control the amount of stretch suppression.
I'm jus' sayin', an adjustable ratio will give you fine control and 6 amp dimmers are not expensive.:cool:

Aloha,
Weeze

mx4intx

02-20-2011, 01:58 AM

If you are talking about r2 on the adjust leg I have been wondering what exactly I would need to do that.

Right now I only have 4 of the blue and 8 of the red. I just fiigured why waste the volts.

khyberkitsune

02-20-2011, 02:54 AM

Good enough is good enough for now. I can improve it later. Nice to hear from you Weezard. When I upgrade I'll probably have to bolt them down anyway since I'll want more light and it will mean a lot more heat. I am probably going to order one more blue LED for now since the PSU will support it. That makes 5 blue 460nm, 4 660nm, and 4 625nm. I figure it might help keep the plants a bit shorter anyway since most people advise a low dense grow with LEDs.

Peace

At your chosen ratio, assuming emitter efficiency of over 25%, you're looking at wanting to keep that panel way above your plants.

I got some needlessly dense growth during veg with similar ratios, you gotta keep the light higher during veg to allow for stretch and then slam it close for dense flowering.

mx4intx

02-20-2011, 04:00 AM

The dimmer should take care of that I guess and after using that for a while I will know how much of what color to add more precisely.

Anyone have any thoughts on this circuit, supposed to run LEDs off AC. Sounds useful for big high powered LED arrays. I found the circuit he referred to first.

AC-LED (http://www.turbokeu.com/myprojects/acled.htm)

khyberkitsune

02-20-2011, 08:32 AM

Weezard

02-20-2011, 08:59 AM

If you are talking about r2 on the adjust leg I have been wondering what exactly I would need to do that.

Right now I only have 4 of the blue and 8 of the red. I just fiigured why waste the volts.

Quite right!

The dimmers I mentioned were the DC, 6 ampere, units that I used for the big light.
But, if you think about it. . .

'spose you could use a pair of 2 ohm resistors in parallel and use, say a 100 ohm, 5W. rheostat in series with one of them.
That will give a range of 1 ohm to 1.96 ohm.
That would just about halve the current when at it's max.
Thanks for suggesting trimming R2.

I probably should have done that and saved a buck or two.
Ah well, live and learn.

Aloha,
Weeze

mx4intx

02-20-2011, 12:56 PM

10mA average from the bottom diagram, not useful for high powered arrays at all.

Thats because that circuit has 20ma led's. Would have to do the math and change out most of the components to drive bigger LEDs. It's being able to do it that intrigues me.

mx4intx

02-20-2011, 01:22 PM

or 10ma, whatever

from that link "A larger capacitor will increase the current and a smaller one will reduce it."

khyberkitsune

02-20-2011, 02:17 PM

Yea being able to do it is no problem. You must, absolutely must limit the reverse voltage though when powering straight from AC without a dedicated driver (just resistors and caps and a couple diodes.)

mx4intx

02-20-2011, 03:15 PM

I dont think you understand the circuit.

heres another one

Circuit - AC Powered White LED Strings (http://www.discovercircuits.com/H-Corner/AC-Powered.htm)

Weezard

02-20-2011, 08:08 PM

Looks good on paper and I see where you are going with this.

Got some bad news for ya.:(

Just scaling up the parts falls apart fast.
A one amp emitter, or string of same uses 100 times the current of those tiny leds.
Just scaling the capacitor still up leaves huge inrush current, Vmax., and voltage spike problems.

A capacitors impedance is frequency dependant.
Higher frequency - lower impedance.
Voltage spikes sail right through them!

A tenth of a volt change is a big deal to a non-linear resistance like a led juction, and most line voltage is very far from stable or "clean".

Coupled with the peak voltage being 1.414 times the RMS voltage it becomes apparent that un-regulated AC is not a viable source for high power LEDs.

No shoot da messenger.:)

Aloha,
Weezard (electronics dick):D

mx4intx

02-20-2011, 09:00 PM

Ya I didnt say it was going to be easy but it makes me go hmmm.

Weezard

02-20-2011, 09:54 PM

Ya I didnt say it was going to be easy but it makes me go hmmm.

If you just must try it, here are some tips:

You need to hang a MOV, (Metal oxine varistor, and a small capacitor across the input, use a diode bridge with 4 more caps for rectification, a large electrolytic cap for DC filtering along with a tantalum cap for HF noise on the output. And a series inductor across the electrolytic to smooth the "sawtooth" ripple.

The inductor adds yet more problems at high current, so now you need "steering diodes to sink inductive spikes.
All that helps, but is still a risky supply for non-linear loads.

That can be addressed with an AC line regulator,
They are not inexpensive.:(

And without pre-regulation and transient suppression,
the complexity increases as does the parts count.:(

I found it less expensive and less worrisome to just do it right the first time.
(well, in my case, the second time):D

A DC current limit supply is the best way to drive leds.
YMCV*, but I doubt it. (*Your Mileage Could vary. You might be a very lucky person.:D)

Do it any way you wish, of course, but keep in mind, once that "magic smoke" gets out da leds are toast.:)

Aloha,
Weezard

khyberkitsune

02-20-2011, 11:00 PM

I dont think you understand the circuit.

heres another one

Circuit - AC Powered White LED Strings (http://www.discovercircuits.com/H-Corner/AC-Powered.htm)

I understand the circuit just fine, sir. I design LED and Induction lighting for a living.

You're not understanding something.

You can't simply scale things up and expect it to work, electrical engineering simply doesn't work like that. You've barely even figured out your conductor resistances, how are you going to match the circuitry to that to avoid creating inductive loads?

Sure you MIGHT get it to work with what you're thinking but you're about guaranteed to destroy the diode in the process.

Weezard

02-20-2011, 11:29 PM

For me at least.

Cheap is mandatory.:(
Lack of Safety :blueknife: is a deal breaker.:toilet_claw:
And, Simple, unto elegance is my ultimate goal.:cool:
Easy, would be very nice as well.:rastasmoke:

This combo will usually require compromise.:)

Just think about it fo' a while.

Weeze

mx4intx

02-21-2011, 12:23 PM

mx4intx

02-21-2011, 12:51 PM

Maybe I will just see if Seoul gives away the secret in an Acriche pdf of how to run high power off AC.

khyberkitsune

02-21-2011, 06:45 PM

My conductor resistances in case of inductive loads?

An emp?

Dude, you dont design anything I think anyone who has read your posts will agree.

Weez, safe and simple is what I am looking for. I am just looking towards the future and a much larger array.

Video - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting (http://tinypic.com/r/2r5gleg/7)

Welcome to my research facility. You do not know anything about me and I wish you would quit assuming such.

We've run the AC and DC tests, multiple times. We even made an LED T8 retrofit that runs directly off of a fluorescent ballast OR can run directly from mains voltage. BTW we were using Ariche diodes for those bars.

Guess what? 70% failure rate. We dropped Seoul Semiconductor like a rock and I am now working with Nichia to create the first true multi-band horticultural diode.

I don't design anything, such a laugh!

mx4intx

02-21-2011, 07:46 PM

Video - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting (http://tinypic.com/r/2r5gleg/7)

Welcome to my research facility. You do not know anything about me and I wish you would quit assuming such.

We've run the AC and DC tests, multiple times. We even made an LED T8 retrofit that runs directly off of a fluorescent ballast OR can run directly from mains voltage. BTW we were using Ariche diodes for those bars.

Guess what? 70% failure rate. We dropped Seoul Semiconductor like a rock and I am now working with Nichia to create the first true multi-band horticultural diode.

I don't design anything, such a laugh!

I have seen your video before. Like I said I read all your threads. Funny you didnt have anything to say about my conductor resistances any more?

Also funny that it's "my facility" and the rest is "we have" done this and that. I doubt you are anything more than a helper. Reading your threads saying you do this and that but any time a technical question is asked you refer them to Weez or Knna or that one guy Weez helped before.

Me? I did 10 months electronic training to fix radios in the USMC. A hardcore 10 months, equal to a 2 year AA.

Calling up some Chinese manufacturer doesnt denote design and certainly hasnt helped you know what you are talking about.

mx4intx

02-22-2011, 02:44 AM

This thread has so much awesome information. Thanks Weez and DH. I am reading it again...sad I know. But I read it twice and I'm still seeing new things and things I came in and asked.

Sorry if I am gunking it up last few posts.

Still waiting on the tape. Bah humbug.

khyberkitsune

02-22-2011, 03:51 AM

When two or more conductors are in proximity to each other, altenating current in one may induce a magnetic field which will impinge on the second conductor.

Now when current builds up in a restricted area along the surface of a conductor (such as a masked trace point for soldering,) AC resistance builds up at a rate which will approach the square root of said frequency. The loss built up from the resulting AC induction will send eddy currents throughout the conductor, which can cause damage to DC-based semiconductors, such as diodes, or computer processors, as the circulating current surges through the DC component and stresses it out, thus causing early failure.

And I don't give specifics because I don't give away my designs. It's that simple.

And I've built my own HAM Radio, thank you. Even cut and wound my own quartz oscillator.

mx4intx

02-22-2011, 05:33 AM

Now when current builds up in a restricted area along the surface of a conductor (such as a masked trace point for soldering,)which can cause damage to DC-based semiconductors, such as diodes

i should throw away all these full wave bridge rectifiers

Now when current builds up in a restricted area along the surface of a conductor (such as a masked trace point for soldering,)

Maybe the capacitor makes it a capacitive circuit? I dont know. Seems like it would be a good way to handle induction though, with the opposite. I'm going to look into it more later.

In the meantime I'm just going to melt a faraday cage and use that to make traces to run the AC. Should take care of that induction problem.

mx4intx

02-22-2011, 05:40 AM

5k pot in parallel with 1 ohm is almost an ohm

go figger :)

the 1ohm gets all the heat right?

mx4intx

02-22-2011, 06:04 AM

nm i am dumb

Weezard

02-22-2011, 10:06 AM

"In the meantime I'm just going to melt a faraday cage and use that to make traces to run the AC. Should take care of that induction problem.":S2:

I'm still trying to kindly rewind my old quartz oscillator.:rolleyes:
Cutting it to size is playing hob with my cheapie, RadioShuck, diamond saw.
And it tends to not wind, when I wind it.:error:
Maybe it's too cold.:i feel stupid:

Can I borry da loan of your Faraday furnace?:D

Seriously Khy, :wtf: are you smokin'?
I think I want some.:cool:

Aloha ya'll
Ya made me grin tonight.

Weezard

mx4intx

02-22-2011, 01:18 PM

hey Weeze, if you have a minute...

http://boards.cannabis.com/attachments/indoor-lighting/216516d1240478545-calling-out-weezard-led-advice-fan-guard.jpg

That dimmer is wired on the load line of the regulator before the LEDs? Found them on ebay but the sellers arent real heavy on the specs or info.

mx4intx

02-22-2011, 01:23 PM

There are different voltage models and Im not sure how they work.

mx4intx

02-22-2011, 02:57 PM

Ah PWM dimmers. The 'ol on-off. Their input is the output from the, in my case, LM317? Then the output of the dimmer right to the LEDs?

mx4intx

02-22-2011, 03:37 PM

PWM dimmer switch for 12v DC LED and panel lights 6 amp - eBay (item 140506143103 end time Feb-27-11 05:30:27 PST) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PWM-dimmer-switch-12v-DC-LED-and-panel-lights-6-amp-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem20b6d1997fQQitemZ14050 6143103QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries)

PWM Dimmer switch for LED lights, 12v DC (http://www.kicklighting.com/PWM-dimmer-switch-for-LED.htm)

Found that. Nice price too. Specs look awesome. I'm buying one.

khyberkitsune

02-22-2011, 10:52 PM

mx4intx

03-06-2011, 10:18 AM

Looks like we lost some posts.

Weezard

03-06-2011, 08:50 PM

Aand we're back!:cool:

Not the first time Cdot went tits-up ya know.
This one really had Sundance scramblin' though.

I figure he's been havin' a ball:(
Don't envy da owners here atall.

Looks like fun, but I'll tell ya what.
Re-building a server is a pain in da butt

It's time consuming and often frustrating.
I is happily retired from all dat kine sing.:):):)

At least they had a good backup from 2/23.
And I did save what few e-mails I could for interval if ya need 'em.

What's happened since the duck tape test?
Lit up any ladies yet?

Aloha,
Weeze

mx4intx

03-06-2011, 10:26 PM

What's happened since the duck tape test?
Lit up any ladies yet?

Aloha,
Weeze

I dont remember where I was here...

I had all the blues mounted and wired, dimming is perfect.

And to make a long story short I totally forgot to wire up the current limiter for the red string. 2A power supply. Lost 2 reds for sure and now the 4 blues outshine the 6 reds left which should be impossible if they are ok.

I ordered this time eight 660's, four 625's, and four 725-745's. If the emerson effect is bunk then at least those last 4 will provide one well known catalyst to chem reactions, heat, but jus' a lil.

These are still the ledengin 5w's and with the four good blues adds up to 100w.

Heres the damage. I also notice that I have ea type of red on the same side. I wanted them alternating I think. My new layout puts all 4 colors onto a quarter of the heatsink with no color adjacent to the same color on a different quarter of the heatsink. Hope that makes sense.

Back to work on this Wed I hope.

http://boards.cannabis.com/attachments/indoor-lighting/272952d1299450587-calling-out-weezard-led-advice-pic_0301.jpg

khyberkitsune

03-07-2011, 05:34 AM

Actually I wouldn't be surprised to see the blues outshine the reds. The red range is much harder to obtain good output efficiencies from, with some of the best Osram and Cree hitting only about 32-35% efficiency per input watt, whereas the best blues are easily hitting 40-45% efficiency per input watt with regards to conversion to light - assuming that the spec sheets per a particular bin are not lying to us.

But the typical pattern seen in spec sheets in almost every bin level is that reds are less efficient as far as radiometric emission is concerned. This is why many companies are using blue diodes as the base of their white LEDs.

mx4intx

03-07-2011, 12:29 PM

khyberkitsune

03-07-2011, 08:14 PM

You cannot use luminous flux to measure monochromatic light in red or blue. The lumen is weighted at 550-555nm - green.

The only true measure of diode efficiency is radiometric output.

If red were more efficient (and higher electron-voltage) then it would be used as the base for white diodes. As it is, blue is used because of the ease of downconverting from blue light to red light using phosphors. Upconverting requires special tricks like frequency doubling (making a red diode output a 'green' light) and is horribly inefficient, moreso than a normal HID lamp.

mx4intx

03-07-2011, 10:44 PM

khyberkitsune

03-08-2011, 04:36 PM

Blue light is a higher energy potential, thus a stronger source of light per photon emission. Blue light also has a pretty high optical damage, and the diodes you've picked are classed with laser diodes in Risk Group 2.

Spec sheets are misleading. Why are they trying to measure output in terms of lumens when the lumen is specifically set at 550-555nm? You're not going to measure 630nm or 660nm light as if it were 550-555nm.
Input power/output power. 1 w input, 450mw output. Blue diodes (sometimes) have the proper radiometric output listed, but those are few and far between.

mx4intx

03-10-2011, 03:31 AM

Well the new LEDs arrived today. Building resumes tomorrow.

khyberkitsune

03-10-2011, 05:23 PM

Can't wait to see how it goes! I just obtatined a rather difficult-to-find copper-cored computer heat sink, now I'm waiting to see if this one particular company can create a super-dense multi-band package in the 100w range to my specifications.

mx4intx

03-11-2011, 01:29 AM

So theyre all mounted.

4 blues (465nm) and 21 reds (3 diff flavors... 625 ( four), 660 (11 of these), and 735 ( 4).

If anyone cares heres the layout from top left

DR R FR DR
R B DR B DR
FR DR DR DR FR
DR B DR B R
DR FR R DR

Now its 115W.

My 4 current limiters (will run off 2 supplies) are mounted on one of the PSU's.

Peace.

273138

Weezard

03-11-2011, 02:29 AM

mx4intx

03-11-2011, 03:45 AM

Superior!
Elegant even.

I like the way you addressed the V. drop in the wires. :thumbsup:
Gonna mount the P.S. on da heasink and have 'em share a fan?

I'd love to see a camera killing "smoke test" of that beast.:cool:
Got any plans for a side by side grow with a different light?

Aloha,
Weeze

Thanks man! Couldnt have done it nearly as fast without you and this thread.

I am just using cfl's for now. I had five 42w'ers (actual W - ProLume brand) in my cab. I dont really think they will even come close to being compared with the LEDs...I hope. May leave 1 or 2 there for a) my eyes to see whats going on and b) as supplements.

Not sure about a fan yet. I'd have to drop a 3rd PSU in there.

But deffo there will be a smoke test!! and pics, lol havent heard that in a looong time.

I have some aluminum flashing I plan on screwing to the heatsink as a kind of case. Top may be open though.

Have babysitting tomorrow, might get half a day to work on the light. Should be done by Saturday though.

Got any advice on how far to keep this from the top of the plants? Running the light crippled for a week and the leaves looked to be hiding from the light at 4-5" away.

Everything this last week was cool to the touch. I'll play the fan by ear.

Again, thank you very much.

Peace.

khyberkitsune

03-11-2011, 03:56 AM

Looks good! Given that you're using 1w emitters without any focusing lenses, I'd keep it about 9 inches away in veg and about 3-4 inches away in flowering.

mx4intx

03-11-2011, 04:15 AM

I did find out that the blues are more tightly focused than any of the reds. Theyre 80 degrees with a total angle of 90 degrees whereas all the reds are 90 with a total angle of 120.

And unless youre talking about the die itself these are all 5w emitters. At 4" (with only 50w) the leaves seem to be curling under.

Weezard

03-11-2011, 04:22 AM

5 Watters running at about 3W.
Do try to keep up, Khy.:rolleyes:

I suggest 12 to 18 " in veg.
8 - 12" in flower.
Closer will actually stop growth.
Closer still, will bleach them.
I learned that the hard way.:(

Mahalo nui, brah
Can't tell you how stoked I am to see this.
Means this thread was well worth the effort.
Now somebody's gonna see your build and start to thinkin'.:cool:

It goes around, it comes around, and before ya know it good stuff abounds.

Great job.
Let's grow.

Weeze

khyberkitsune

03-11-2011, 06:26 AM

Ah, yep, I'm stoned, misread a post above as 1w instead of mW (the lumens post between red and blue)

5w emitters. Are these true single-chip or multi-chip packages?

mx4intx

03-11-2011, 12:25 PM

Are these true single-chip or multi-chip packages?

Pretty sure they are single chip. Multichip doesnt start until 10w with ledengin I think. Only ever see two wires going into the die also.

khyberkitsune

03-11-2011, 04:51 PM

You'll need a microscope to get a good look inside to tell if it's multi-chip or single-chip.

Have a pic of a 1w Nichia 460nm emitter, multi-chip, and an Osram 660nm single-chip emitter. Note the bonding wires inside of each die area and where they connect. Some single-die emitters use multiple bonding wires for better electrical saturation of the diode, but it should be fairly easy to tell if it's single or multi.

mx4intx

03-11-2011, 07:57 PM

Well no microscope so I cant tell. It looks like a single emitter to me. The 10w ledengin LEDs look like they have 4 diff dies. The 5w look like one die.

edit to add: Three hours sleep last night combined with just getting back from babysitting means I probably wont work on the light today. Dont want to screw something up due to being tired.