*Breaking News* Majority leader Reid clears hurdle for Bush/Cheney spying bill

[mfqr]

Reid Clears Hurdle for Bush-Cheney Spying Bill - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080124/cm_thenation/15274927)



The Nation Thu Jan 24, 3:24 PM ET

The Nation -- Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid cleared a key hurdle for the FISA Amendments Act on Thursday, advancing President Bush's preferred version of the spying bill, a move opposed by the majority of Reid's Democratic colleagues. The vote, 60-34, sets the Senate on a course to validate more warrantless spying by the Bush administration and provide retroactive amnesty to telephone companies accused of breaking surveillance laws -- an unpopular approach.

The ACLU, which has collaborated with a network of constitutional activists and bloggers to oppose the administration's surveillance policies, condemned the Democratic leadership in unusually tough language after the vote. "Under Democratic leadership, the Senate will now continue its debate on surveillance with a bill that resembles something from the administration's playbook. Six months after being hoodwinked into passing the Protect America Act, Americans are still waiting for Congress to grow a spine," read an official statement released Thursday afternoon.

Glenn Greenwald, an attorney who has written extensively about surveillance issues as an author and blogger, blasted the Democrats' caving on the surveillance bill as part of a broader pattern. "Democrats have failed repeatedly to end or even limit one of the most unpopular wars in American history. They have failed to restore habeas corpus. They have failed to fulfill their promise of 'fixing' the hastily-passed Protect America Act," he wrote at Salon. "They don't feel the slightest bit ashamed or remorseful about any of that," he added.

The Senate floor battle also reflected that Democrats remain divided over whether to confront the Bush administration over constitutional rights. Judiciary Chairman Pat Leahy's alternative bill, which would keep telephone companies accountable for potentially illegal or unconstitutional acts, drew the majority of Democratic Senators, including strong backing from Senators Russ Feingold and Chris Dodd. But Reid arranged floor votes to favor the Bush-Cheney version, introduced by Intelligence Chairman Jay Rockefeller, and announced that he would force Democratic opponents to openly filibuster it -- a hardball demand he has rarely made against Republican filibusters.

The fight is far from over. The Senate is considering several more amendments to the underlying bill, and it must reconcile the legislation with a House version that does not include retroactive amnesty. But with opponents like these, President Bush may have forgotten that Congress ever changed hands.

--

Update: The vote tally is here.

Matt Browner-Hamlin, a former blogger for Chris Dodd, works as an organizer for Credo Mobile on the FISA fight, and he emailed The Nation with this observation about the presidential candidates: Senators Clinton and Obama rushed off the campaign trail to vote on the Farm Bill in November, ahead of the Iowa caucus. But with the Constitution on the line today for the second time in little more than a month, they both did absolutely nothing. No Democrat will mistake their inaction for leadership.


...of course, it's not breaking news on FOX News. Well, so who's going to be the first one to say, "you have nothing to worry about if you're doing nothing wrong." Oops, but I guess all of us here should be worried, because we all like to get stoned, and grow a special plant.

[Mr. Clandestine]

...of course, it's not breaking news on FOX News. Well, so who's going to be the first one to say, "you have nothing to worry about if you're doing nothing wrong." Oops, but I guess all of us here should be worried, because we all like to get stoned, and grow a special plant.

Unless you're growing that special plant and, at the same time, happen to be consorting with terrorists overseas, you still have nothing to worry about. The U.S. government is doing what it can to prevent terrorist attacks, and to this date, it's still working. There are a lot of policies and actions by the Bush administration that I flat-out just don't agree with, but when it comes to tracking information coming into our nation that could be used to kill more of our people, I have little problem with it. With all the violence and hatred going on in the world, they finally have much larger problems on their hands than keeping tabs on peaceful growers.

I guess I'll be the first one to say it: Be a good citizen, don't rob banks, don't sell drugs, don't run your mouth about growing to anyone...and you'll have little to worry about. For the most part, you've done nothing wrong! :thumbsup:

[norkali]

....Be a good citizen...and you'll have little to worry about.


http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/.Pictures/wiring.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/leperous/.Pictures/sleepy.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/.Pictures/closed.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/leperous/.Pictures/seehear.jpg

[Rusty Trichome]

Anyobody here (living in the United States) know anyone that was busted/investigated under the FISA Act?

Personally, I'm doubtful that any of us have to be too paranoid about this. My fight, especially when it comes to these cannabis boards, is with educating like-minded people how to properly grow cannabis, and ammending the cannabis laws. Not telling the government how I think they should protect me from foreign conspirators.
The constitution requires the government to protect my right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If this infringes on others, that think this 'passage' in the constitution allows them to have the right to plot against my family, my friends, my country, in an effort to subvert our government, our political process, and our way of life...tough shit.
Go get 'em Harry Reid, lol.

(this outta get interesting...oh, and also...nice propoganda posters)

[midlifecrisis]

Anyobody here (living in the United States) know anyone that was busted/investigated under the FISA Act?




Well, just last year I sprouted a few hundred strawberry cough girls, just in time I finished tinkering with my electric meter, so I could rip off the electric company, I was a happy person (non descript wording may be used because of feds searching these boards).

So as I am waiting to harvest I call up my buddy in Argentina, who then conference calls our friend in Indonesia so we could talk to a guy named Amahedia about buying some guns and maybe a few hundred pounds of explosives. (completely harmless background info not related to this story)

Well a few days later the Feds come knocking on my door with a warrant. They "say' because of some phone call i made, yeah right, They say I may be a terrorist, then stumble onto my personal garden. My lawyer got thee terrorist charges dropped, because everyone knows you need a lot of guns and explosives to blast a tree stump out of the ground.

The charges for cultivation however stuck and I now will be serving time, and for some reason I owe the electric company 1000's of dollars. Damn the Man!

So don't be fooled the government will spend millions to get the little guy any way they can....


This is really true............really it is.








No, Really. :jointsmile:

[wickerbill]

Mr C, you are so naive.

[Rusty Trichome]

just in time I finished tinkering with my electric meter, so I could rip off the electric company,...

...so we could talk to a guy named Amahedia about buying some guns and maybe a few hundred pounds of explosives. (completely harmless background info not related to this story)

Well a few days later the Feds come knocking on my door with a warrant. They "say' because of some phone call i made, yeah right, They say I may be a terrorist, then stumble onto my personal garden. My lawyer got thee terrorist charges dropped, because everyone knows you need a lot of guns and explosives to blast a tree stump out of the ground...
So don't be fooled the government will spend millions to get the little guy any way they can....

You prove my point...not yours. Had your 'buddy' not made the conference call, perhaps you could have flown under the radar.
The mindset you present, the overseas conversations about guns and explosives to folks whom may themselves be what the feds are looking for, put you in this situation.
Importing weapons and explosives from overseas is obviously illegal, as is tinkering with the meter.
If this fable is true...you were setting yourself up to be busted. Not because of FISA laws, but because you you have a mindset to act foolishly.

[midlifecrisis]

You prove my point...not yours. Had your 'buddy' not made the conference call, perhaps you could have flown under the radar.
The mindset you present, the overseas conversations about guns and explosives to folks whom may themselves be what the feds are looking for, put you in this situation.
Importing weapons and explosives from overseas is obviously illegal, as is tinkering with the meter.
If this fable is true...you were setting yourself up to be busted. Not because of FISA laws, but because you you have a mindset to act foolishly.


I was actually backing up your point, and I thought I had laid the sarcasm on quite heavily.....Besides I have neither the need or the patience to sprout a "few hundred".

[mfqr]

Interesting replies, to say the least. My opinion on this matter is that we are getting closer and closer to a Big Brother-like government. Oh, wait a second! They can already spy on you and watch whatever you do.

For anyone that thinks that this bill is in our (citizens) best interests, how can you think that? That it's in your best interest to possibly be spied on? Maybe we, as adults, do not know what is best for ourselves, right? Maybe oppression is the answer to a war that we cannot win, and that never has an objective of completion. Therefore, when the hell is this going to stop? Oooooh, that's right. It won't stop, because the War on Terror doesn't either. Obviously, nobody wants to give up their power. This bill, including many others (yes, even The Patriot Act, and the Homeland Security Act, and the Violent Radicalization and Homgrown Terrorism Act (has not passed yet, thank GOD!)), do not have our best interests in mind. They have the government's best interests in mind, and already in hand! You know, I cannot believe how some of you can justify these things in the name of a war that will never end, or at least has no end in sight. Do some of you actually think that it's hard to topple over a democracy when the methods used are ones that do not stage a coup, but pass bills in secrecy, and gain the support of the citizens? Those of you who support this stuff... you're actually supporting the ending of our democracy. Or at least the attempted ending of our democracy. It's in plain sight. This bill shows it very clearly... these kind of bills have absolutely no place in a free and open society.

By the way, Norkali, nice propaganda posters. I love readin' them things ;).

[Rusty Trichome]

I was actually backing up your point, and I thought I had laid the sarcasm on quite heavily.....Besides I have neither the need or the patience to sprout a "few hundred".
I know...that's why I prefaced it with...



If this fable is true...

I did, however, edit-out some choice words before posting, just in case, lol.

mfqr:
It's soooo easy to blast an issue and side-step responsibility of ones own actions, and the effects of those actions on others'. Especially when in many circles, facts and alternative solutions are considered not necessary and thusly not offered.
If any of us have a better solution...I'd love to hear it.

I justify nothing, except to say that my freedoms stop at the tip of my nose, just like everyone else. But if someone in my neighborhood is plotting to blow-up my childs day care center...you better believe I'll support tapping their phone, watching their every move, and would bend over backwards to help "big brother' catch their ass.
And yes...I offer God's blessings to you for having the right to propogandize everything your government does, rather than seeking the truth. Friends don't let their friends get the 'news' from Bill Maher.

Problems are easy to find...solutions and truth are a bit more difficult, tho.

[Mr. Clandestine]

Mr C, you are so naive.

Thanks for that powerful argument, and the strong conclusions you've made to back up your assertation...:wtf:

Be paranoid, if that's what truly inspires you to post random cries on an internet forum. As for me being naive...I still don't see the feds busting down my door to stop me from cultivating this horrible plant.

But if you truly want to believe that our government is conspiring against you, well...I can't prevent you from being unspeakably ignorant. That's your God given right as an American, unfortunately.

[mfqr]

I justify nothing, except to say that my freedoms stop at the tip of my nose, just like everyone else. But if someone in my neighborhood is plotting to blow-up my childs day care center...you better believe I'll support tapping their phone, watching their every move, and would bend over backwards to help "big brother' catch their ass.


Of course, but what is the likelyhood of that? Or maybe you actually believe that there are "terrorist sleeper cells" here in America. Give me a break--it's fabricated. Stalin used to say the same thing to scare people. Maybe you didn't know that terrorism has been around for a long, long time. But now they suddenly need to start taking our rights away for it? Perhaps it would be wise for you to take a look at the probable motives of this administration, rather than giving into fabricated evidence of terrorist plots, and scary sleeper cells in your own neighborhood planning to blow up your child's daycare.



And yes...I offer God's blessings to you for having the right to propogandize everything your government does, rather than seeking the truth. Friends don't let their friends get the 'news' from Bill Maher.


And I offer Allah's blessings to you for believing the propaganda that the government spits to you, rather than seeking the truth. I don't know why you think that I get news from Bill Maher.



Problems are easy to find...solutions and truth are a bit more difficult, tho.

Truth is unheard of in America. Solutions are almost always in favor of the government, and not you or I, or the old lady down the street.

One thing that can be said for sure is that people are always going to be pursuing power. And yes, even in our own government. Don't let your American ideologies blind you, rusty trichome.

[mfqr]

And do you ever think that maybe, just maybe, it might be good to question authority for once? And maybe it might do some good to actually do some research on this subject? You could, of course, just blindly accept what the government says. But where does that get you? Certainly not truth.

[Rusty Trichome]

Truth is unheard of in America.
I included in your quote above, all that is not propoganda. The rest, well...
Where is your proof to back up your accusations? I can cut-n-paste blog crap all day, as is so common a practice these days. That doesn't mean the info is true. Is our government perfect? No. But those that struggle to live 'outside the box' sure fit themselves neatly into a box half-filled with half-truths.
Every day I see the truth, I hear the truth, I live the truth. I served 4 years in the Air Force for the truth. (79-83 - during the times of the Iranian revolt)

Today, I choose not to be a whiny babbling parrot of disinformation, but a proud citizen of the United States that understands that 'big brother' isn't out to get me. If he wanted me, he knows where I am. I'll feel the same way tomorrow, too.

My proof...?
Didn't I see somewhere in this post that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid cleared the way for this bill to continue?
The leader of the senate...a democrat...finds this is acceptable, but you know better than he how to keep us protected?
Is he part of the conspiracy, too?

[JD1stTimer]

Grrr at the "quick" reply. :gunfighter2: Anyway, yeah, the government knows how to do things right. That's why when Anslinger pushed to make cannabis illegal they fought him tooth and... uhhh... hrm... Anyways, there's a good reason we need to do this... theres a bunch of judges who are Al-Qaeda members and they won't issue warrants when there's plenty of reason for suspicion. Also, it takes like... some time to get a warrant, which sucks when you know the evidence will be transmitted across the phone line within the next twenty minutes. Why do you know this? Because you either already have warrants to search the guy, or he's a total moron who tells his plans in front of an audience, or he's cooperating with you already, or you have been searching him without a warrant. Wait a minute, I almost forgot, if you stumble into a plan to commit a crime you can go ahead and investigate anyway as long as a judge agrees after-the-fact that it was an emergency. But those damn Al-Qaeda judges again.. argh. ;)

[Rusty Trichome]

Question authority for once..? Sure. As long as it's done intelligently and responsibly using facts not inuendo. Otherwise ya just sound like another Rosie O'Donnell spouting her 'government conspiracies are everywhere' philosophy.

As I don't know you, and you don't know me...this is just another of the inuendo's that invalidate most arguments as immature rhetoric.

mfqr: you mentioned "rather than giving into fabricated evidence of terrorist plots, and scary sleeper cells "
Fort Dix ring a bell? How about Richard Reid? World Trade Center bombings 1 & 2?



That's why when Anslinger pushed to make cannabis illegal they fought him tooth and... uhhh...
Cannabis legalization isn't the only issue I take into account when pondering a selection to the most powerful and prominent position in the world. Hair style counts, too.

[Mr. Clandestine]

Cannabis legalization isn't the only issue I take into account when pondering a selection to the most powerful and prominent position in the world. Hair style counts, too.

:S2:

Good one, Rusty! Tried to +rep you for the stand you've made here, but I must have done so recently.

Anyway...dissent is perfectly normal and healthy, but hearing all these rhetorical conspiracy theories get thrown around is just asinine. You can be patriotic and at the same time fight for change in our government.

I'm well aware that our country isn't perfect, but what country doesn't have flaws? Even with the archaic laws surrounding cannabis, the decisions made in the past by our government that I disagreed with, etc., I'm still damn proud to be an American.

[wickerbill]

Mr C, I think that much has been said already in numerous posts on this thread as well as others., I will however cite examples of your tax dollars at work,the Gulf of Tonkin incident, Watergate, Iran/contra scandal, leaking CIA operative's name(high treason), expermenting with the effects of syphillis on US citizens by injection without their knowlege, Katrina, also the govt's primary job, to protect the nation and it's citzens even when warned "BIn Laden ddetermined to attack the US" goes unheeded, as reported by API, BBC,Rueters, and many other news outlets the W administration told 935 lies to justify an illegal war. I could go on & on but people like you will not question the gov't even as they are waiting in line for their cup of kool-aid. I believe that you ,my friend, have conered the market on ignorance, and as for paranoia, when was the last time you were attacked by "terrorists"?

[Rusty Trichome]

Thanks for the intended rep, lol.
I have nothing against responsible dissent. Same with responsible journalism. But when dissenting journalists are only interested in advancing their cause, we all sufer from an overflowing of emotion they have purposefully manipulated to elict a trained response. The more devout their sect, when one is confronted with the truth, they become incredulous, insolent and defensive, side-stepping to another pissy theory. (How is Dan Rather, anyway?)

Sounds like a Times front page collection ya got there. Remarkably no mention of the faux paws the democrats have been fiddling with. Rep. William Jefferson, Norman Hsu, Whitewater, Monica...?
All governments have their problems. But damn sure, the way to solve the problems isn't to subvert them, but understand the nature of the problem. When there are problems found in certain areas of the government, doesn't make sence to tear it all down.
To correct a child that hits another child, you don't punish them all, and say "one's bad, they're all bad".
Or do you...?



when was the last time you were attacked by "terrorists"?
How often do you think we should be attacked?
And if Ft. Dix had suceeded? You don't think there's others? lol


Gotta run, wife want's computer.

[mfqr]

I included in your quote above, all that is not propoganda. The rest, well...
Where is your proof to back up your accusations? I can cut-n-paste blog crap all day, as is so common a practice these days.


Proof of what accusations, that truth is unheard of? I don't cut and paste anything from blogs... where did you see that? This article came from a news source, not a blog. :wtf:



That doesn't mean the info is true. Is our government perfect? No.


Our government is perfect for certain people--the rich, and power elite. But certainly not us, the citizens.



But those that struggle to live 'outside the box' sure fit themselves neatly into a box half-filled with half-truths.


And those who live 'inside the box', controlled by the man, the oppressor of the mind, do not fit themselves neatly into a box half-filled with half-truths? You sure seem to think you live in a world where you see the truth everywhere. Unfortunately for you, and everyone else, there is less truth than you may realize... which is actually one of the real interesting aspects of truth: the fact that people think they see and hear the truth all the time, but yet that in itself is a lie.



Every day I see the truth, I hear the truth, I live the truth. I served 4 years in the Air Force for the truth. (79-83 - during the times of the Iranian revolt)


Or you think you see the truth, hear the truth, and live the truth. I don't understand how serving in the Air Force is living, hearing, and seeing the truth... but okay.



Today, I choose not to be a whiny babbling parrot of disinformation,


Then you have unintentionally morphed into a whiny, babbling parrot of disinformation.



but a proud citizen of the United States that understands that 'big brother' isn't out to get me.


No? Maybe not yet. But now if they wanted to, they could, without warning, without a warrant.



I'll feel the same way tomorrow, too.


How do you know?



My proof...?
Didn't I see somewhere in this post that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid cleared the way for this bill to continue?
The leader of the senate...a democrat...finds this is acceptable, but you know better than he how to keep us protected?
Is he part of the conspiracy, too?

He finds it acceptable because it fulfills his agenda, or rather, the agenda of others who want a Big Brother-esque government in place. In other words, yes, he is part of the conspiracy. Is that really so hard to believe? That maybe there is a conspiracy going on? I'm sure it was pretty hard for you to believe that this same kind of stuff happened in Germany in the 1930s as well? Or maybe it's impossible for it to happen, because America isn't corrupt at all, and is certainly not corruptable? Maybe you believe this because democracies are impossible to get rid of? Maybe it's because your American ideologies of living in the "Land of the Free" are blinding you from seeing that there is something really bad happening here... and it does not help you. If you're scared of sleeper-cell terrorists bombing your children's daycare, then I truly feel sorry for you... for you have given into the deception and fear-mongering of the Bush Administration.

For the record, I do have a solution to what is happening in this government. It's called Revolution.

[mfqr]

Question authority for once..? Sure. As long as it's done intelligently and responsibly using facts not inuendo.


And what facts do you have to support your belief of what is currently happening? Clearly you must have some for-sure facts backing the justification of this bill.



Otherwise ya just sound like another Rosie O'Donnell spouting her 'government conspiracies are everywhere' philosophy.


Ohhh, I don't want to sound like her, so I won't be suspicious of our government anymore! LOL



mfqr: you mentioned "rather than giving into fabricated evidence of terrorist plots, and scary sleeper cells "
Fort Dix ring a bell? How about Richard Reid? World Trade Center bombings 1 & 2?


Of course the WTC bombings (including the one in 1993) was *real*, however, who they blame, and how they say it was done could very well be fabricated. What makes you so sure you have all the truth in it? Because they said that's how it happened? It would be wise to take a good look, and see who has benefitted from 9/11.



Cannabis legalization isn't the only issue I take into account when pondering a selection to the most powerful and prominent position in the world. Hair style counts, too.

Being the president of the U.S. isn't the most powerful and prominent position in the world... being a Rothschild is.

[Rusty Trichome]

You bore me with your 'truths'. Been a nice way to pass a saturday, tho.
Ciao.

[mfqr]

You bore me with your 'truths'. Been a nice way to pass a saturday, tho.
Ciao.

The truth is, truth is scarce. That is the only truth I know.

I don't think I know all of the truths, but I certainly know that the truth is scarce on all levels of society. You cannot sit here and tell me that because the government said "so and so did it, and it happened <this> way," without providing evidence to *you*, that you know the truth of it. Which is my point... and which is also why people question it. It's why I question it. Do you have the intelligence reports? Have you seen any evidence other than biased news reports on television?

Do you really understand the nature of power?
Do you really think that with this bill, they will only target terrorists when tapping a line, when in fact they do not know who the terrorists are? This would mean that they would have to consider anyone, and everyone, a possible terrorist. This is why this gives immunity to telecommunications corporations to monitor phone calls. Do you understand the nature of this? Do you think they would actually give this power up? Where is the line drawn, Rusty? With the War on Terror, how can you be so sure that this will ever stop until there is nothing more to take?
Maybe if you read up on some history, you will realize that we really are in some trouble here. It is cowardly, and unintelligent to give up freedom for security.

[mfqr]

Also, do you actually think that someone who is planning on carrying out a terrorist attack is going to talk on their phone with a standard service? That's probably the easiest way to get caught. Dur. This bill targets citizens, under the guise of targeting terrorists... under the name of the eternal War on Terror.

[Rusty Trichome]

I'm pretty sure that I never said that I have the evidence...I was simply asking to be provided the evidence for some of the outrageously paranoid and naive statements.
But frankly...this sound like all the other conspiracy theorists psychobabble. Irresponsible and immature. Or not...whatever.

Meanwhile...I grow my pot, help others, and will vote for the most qualified. Kinds sucks we come from a different philosophy...but I'll never dance to the beat of your drummer.:jointsmile:

[Mr. Clandestine]

Mr C, I think that much has been said already in numerous posts on this thread as well as others., I will however cite examples of your tax dollars at work,the Gulf of Tonkin incident, Watergate, Iran/contra scandal, leaking CIA operative's name(high treason), expermenting with the effects of syphillis on US citizens by injection without their knowlege, Katrina, also the govt's primary job, to protect the nation and it's citzens even when warned "BIn Laden ddetermined to attack the US" goes unheeded, as reported by API, BBC,Rueters, and many other news outlets the W administration told 935 lies to justify an illegal war. I could go on & on but people like you will not question the gov't even as they are waiting in line for their cup of kool-aid. I believe that you ,my friend, have conered the market on ignorance, and as for paranoia, when was the last time you were attacked by "terrorists"?

No offense, Wicker B, but this is the same far-left thinking that I've heard a thousand times before, and I'm sure the buck isn't going to stop with you. And I'm the kool-aid drinker? Give me a break...

Your dull rhetoric is still as misinformed as your dull rhetoric has constantly been, but I can't say I don't give you credit for consistency. Constantly thinking the world is conspiring against you, constantly labeling anyone with a sense of patriotism as an "unquestioning kool-aid drinker", constantly running your mouth about the past with little concern for the future.

My tax dollars have funded a lot of programs that have benefited you, but you only choose to see the negatives from our countries past and refuse to focus on the good things that our government has done for us. So, in essence, you were calling me naive for trusting that our government isn't conspiring against me...right? That doesn't make me look naive, but instead makes you look imbecilic and downright paranoid.

But, again, it's your right as an American citizen to make as much of a fool of yourself as you so desire. You've been afforded that right by countless patriots like those who are fighting and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan. You should show some respect, regardless of how you feel about the war itself. But I don't see you coming to your senses anytime soon...

[mfqr]

I'm pretty sure that I never said that I have the evidence...I was simply asking to be provided the evidence for some of the outrageously paranoid and naive statements.
But frankly...this sound like all the other conspiracy theorists psychobabble. Irresponsible and immature. Or not...whatever.

Meanwhile...I grow my pot, help others, and will vote for the most qualified. Kinds sucks we come from a different philosophy...but I'll never dance to the beat of your drummer.:jointsmile:

To each his own, brother. We're all the same. Sorry, I know you didn't claim to have any evidence... I just wanted to ask some questions, because I was wondering why you're okay with the possibility of the government spying on you. I am certainly not okay with the possibility of them listening on my conversations, and spying on me, even if I am doing nothing wrong. It's just the thought that I cannot talk to a friend in privacy, without Big Brother listening in on my conversations. This isn't conspiracy theory, but rather conspiracy. The evidence is *right there* (the bill). This isn't about stopping terrorists, it's about power.

If you look throughout history, you can see that there are always would-be dictators trying to make power grabs... either by a coup d'etat, or by using the law to subvert the law. And unfortunately, from my point of view, I see this happening here in America. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying this is all Bush's plan. The plan is crafted and carried out by modern-day aristocrats. Yes, they still exist... and likely, they will never go away. There is always a struggle between liberty and oppression. Correct history is probably the best way to predict future events without having using some sort of method of telepathy. No, this is not psycho-babble: it's evidence, shown right in this thread, that there is a lack of care for our civil liberties. Is that not something to be worried about? When will you be worried, when (or if) a police state or military state becomes apparent in this country? Or is that necessary to thwart terrorism that has been around for a long, long time?

If so, when will our civil liberties be returned? When this "war," with no end in sight, ends? When we conquer the whole middle-east? Deep thinking and critical analysis really helps--but of course, they don't want you to do that, or you may end up with a conclusion which exposes their plans.

[Rusty Trichome]

This isn't conspiracy theory, but rather conspiracy. The evidence is *right there* (the bill). This isn't about stopping terrorists, it's about power.

Well, I'm guessing you are including Sen. Reid, (and his minions) in this conspiracy theory? This whole post centered around the bill being signed by Sen. Harry Reid, clearing just one of the hurdles that our lawmakers must clear before passing into law. Very big conspiracy, indeed.

I guess y'all need a cause. If not conspiracies, then what would y'all do...? PITA? Human induced global warming?

As far as 'letting' them tap phones...anyone with a scanner can listen in to all you cell phone calls. Don't even have to be Big Brother. And quite frankly...I keep myself out of situations where feds would take notice. I don't stand at the top of the mountain saying...'this government sucks, is corrupt, and all who believe differently than I are patent liars, un-educated and brainwashed.'

Until they face up to the notion that there is a gigantic chunk of information they are taught to deny, they will continue to spout nonsence as gospel. (from educators, the media...)
This is how you've been schooled. From the slant of everyday progress in Iraq, to your indoctrination in schools...you are getting a great lesson in brainwashing. (Brainwashing: also known as thought reform or as re-education, consists of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person â?? sometimes unwelcome beliefs in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge)

But hey...as long as you're happy being treated like the sacrificial lamb, going to your own slaughter.

And this question authority bullshit...? Who questions the authority of those calling your shots? Your 'leaders' are manipulating this generation better than any government could ever conceive. I'll kinda feel sorry for them, once y'all see you have been blinded all along.

[yokinazu]

ok i dont know about the conspiracy theorys but the one thing i do know is i feal like i been manupulated and lied to for much to long now. and it dint start in 2000 but long befor that. i cant say what i feal about this bill either because really dont know all the details. but i do know that i dont want the gov't listaning to any of my phone calls. now i know some will say its only overseas calls. well i dont know but i may be in an unique situation here. my sister-in-law lives in germany and is married to a muslim. i may not agree with all his veiws on things but he is really not a bad guy and i do like him. i also talk to thm everyonce in a while. she has 2 daughters from a previos marrage, i love my neices very much, and she has 2 kids with this man. a son and a daughter. my 2 neices are 15 and 17 years old so they are having the troubes that most teenagers have and they need some guidance that they cant get from parents. so they actually do ask and listen to my opinion on things. wether they follow my advice or not well thats a differant matter. but my point is that im not all that thrilled with the fact that now i will have to worry about haveing my conversations listened to when i call them or they call me. especially due to he fact that their step father is a muslim. and am i going to be labeled as a smpathizer because i have muslim in my family?

also i dont get my news from bill maher but i do like to watch him sometimes, its good for a laugh.

and as far as reid bein a dem and doin this well they are all the same and there will be no true chang in things til we get away from the 2 party politics and people actually start votin for a 3rd party. dems and repubs dont care about us they only care about their own agenda

[Mr. Clandestine]

but my point is that im not all that thrilled with the fact that now i will have to worry about haveing my conversations listened to when i call them or they call me. especially due to he fact that their step father is a muslim. and am i going to be labeled as a smpathizer because i have muslim in my family?

This is the kind of paranoia that's constantly being fed by conspiracy theorists, wanting you to believe that the government is out to get you. I have extended family who lives in Italy and throughout Europe, many of whom I talk to fairly frequently. One of my cousins lives in Italy, and is a practicing Buddhist. Now, I know Buddhists are certainly going to be considered less of a threat to many people than Muslims, but under the same premise, they're not fundamentalist Christians and therefore could be grouped with the same radical Muslim factions that our government is looking thwart.

While some of our conversations may well have been listened to for all I know, I've never found any reason to suspect that this was so. When you start your conversation off with, "How's your mother?" or "Did you make it to the Cannabis Cup this year?" -- and NOT, "Hey, I think I've got the schematics down for this suicide vest."...then I've given anyone who may be listening no reason to suspect that I may be plotting something. I've never gotten a follow-up call from DHS after my conversations, and my door has never been kicked in. And this wouldn't happen, because for the thousandth time...I've done nothing wrong.

As for third party representation, that would be a nice idea. I too am tired of the endless bickering between the Democrats and Republicans. While they spend weeks at a time arguing over a bill, they could be doing so many other productive things...like passing bills and other measures that would benefit their country, as opposed to stalling tactics that typically end in a stalemate. I'm Republican by choice, but that's not to say I'll only vote Republican. (I didn't vote for Bush in either of the last two elections.) I'll vote for anyone who will focus on making our country a better place for her citizens...be they Democrat, Republican, or Independent. These are all just labels. We're all Americans, regardless of how the extreme dissenters may feel about it.

[Rusty Trichome]

If all you are worried about is a conversation over the phone, what are you talking about they can nail you for...? (hypothetical question, not an accusation)

Unless you talk about the bank heist you pulled off last week, or the upcoming harvest and sale of your 60,000 watt gro-op, I'm confused as to the validity of most citizens concerns.

A couple of my reasons for not being concerned about this:
A) I'm not about to talk of stuff I truly feel might be taped. Common sence would prevent me from being so stupid.
B) I'm perfectly willing to have a couple of minor portions of my civil rights reigned-in for the sake of the rest of my fellow americans safety and security. Especially since I have no reason to fear an invasion into my life as a direct result of this bill. If this hurts the extremists feelings, I'm fine with that.
C) I, as do all voters, also hold the right to reject restriction of any of the other rights guranteed me in the constitution. As sometimes is the case, concessions must be made for the right reasons at the right time in history. It's not about losing a constitutional right. It's about gaining another tool in our fight for the sovereignty and safety of our country. Other times, other circumstances, other rights, yes...I'd fight tooth-and-nail to protect. But you just don't cut off your nose, to spite your face.

The constitution and the bill of rights are 'living documents' just as the framers of the United States had intended. They are not the end point, but the begining point. The bill of rights has been ammended many, many times in the past, and future times can/will warrant further modifications. It is a process that's been going on for many generations. Sen. Reid knows this all too well, aparently.

Fear not, chicken little...it's just a meteor.

[mfqr]

If all you are worried about is a conversation over the phone, what are you talking about they can nail you for...? (hypothetical question, not an accusation)

Unless you talk about the bank heist you pulled off last week, or the upcoming harvest and sale of your 60,000 watt gro-op, I'm confused as to the validity of most citizens concerns.


That is one of my points, actually. No terrorist is going to use a phone with a standard service to talk about their next target... and I'm sure the government knows this.



B) I'm perfectly willing to have a couple of minor portions of my civil rights reigned-in for the sake of the rest of my fellow americans safety and security. Especially since I have no reason to fear an invasion into my life as a direct result of this bill. If this hurts the extremists feelings, I'm fine with that.


Yep, and you will likely keep having to do it. Giving up rights, that is.

[Rusty Trichome]

So under you views, all of the bill of rights' ammendments should be stricken...? Or would it be better just to rid ourselves of the whole Bill of Rights thing once and for all? Don't look now, but your apparent ignorance is showing.
As technology and inter-global communications advance, there will likely be many more ammendments passed. This is the beauty of the Bill of Rights. It gives us the flexibility to protect the rights of America's citizens as the times necessitate. Interesting documents...ya ought to read 'em sometime.

[THClord]

This is retarded! Those who want to encrypt their phone calls (terrorists) can do so without any problem. And the rest of the US should be spyed on? WTF?

And retroactive amnesty???? You've got to be kidding. It's like awarding those who break the law in favor of the Bush administration.

Seriously, someone needs to do the world a favor and shoot Bush in the head. He'll do far too much damage until he leaves office. Actually that won't work either, cuz the Bush followers will make a grand BS scheme of terrorists killing Bush, because he has become a threat to the terrorist way of life, and then they'll pass even more laws against our freedom. If people believed 9/11 despite all the evidence against it, they'd believe this.

[mfqr]

So under you views, all of the bill of rights' ammendments should be stricken...? Or would it be better just to rid ourselves of the whole Bill of Rights thing once and for all? Don't look now, but your apparent ignorance is showing.
As technology and inter-global communications advance, there will likely be many more ammendments passed. This is the beauty of the Bill of Rights. It gives us the flexibility to protect the rights of America's citizens as the times necessitate. Interesting documents...ya ought to read 'em sometime.

I am hoping you are right... that this is no problem for us.

And no, I don't see why you would think that I think the Bill of Rights should be trashed... especially since I am here speaking for the liberties of everyone. Quite a strange question, that is. And I have read the Bill of Rights before (have not in quite awhile, though).

I am willing to accept the possibility of my ignorance here. Are you willing to accept the possibility of your ignorance in this subject too? Just curious. But of course, you live truth, hear truth, and see truth every day.

[Rusty Trichome]

If you are asking if I am intelligent enough to think I have gained my opinion by reading/watching/hearing news from sources favorible to both sides of the aisle? and if I have come to my own conclusions on a variety of issues using available information and common sence, while filtering out the inuendo and gossip from talk show hosts on a slant? or if I have an inherent feeling of gratitude to be born and raised here?

I'm confident to give a strong yes to all.

Do I have gripes about every administration? Sure. Do I feel compelled to nit pick every aspect of an administration I've been taught to despise? Used to, but was much younger then. Pres. Carter was a real bitch back then. :jointsmile:

Could I be wrong? Again...I'm not nearly foolish enough to answer that no. And I'm sure if evidence comes about to show events in a new light, my opinion will obviously be altered to reflect this.

[mfqr]

If you are asking if I am intelligent enough to think I have gained my opinion by reading/watching/hearing news from sources favorible to both sides of the aisle? and if I have come to my own conclusions on a variety of issues using available information and common sence, while filtering out the inuendo and gossip from talk show hosts on a slant? or if I have an inherent feeling of gratitude to be born and raised here?

I'm confident to give a strong yes to all.

Do I have gripes about every administration? Sure. Do I feel compelled to nit pick every aspect of an administration I've been taught to despise? Used to, but was much younger then. Pres. Carter was a real bitch back then. :jointsmile:

Could I be wrong? Again...I'm not nearly foolish enough to answer that no. And I'm sure if evidence comes about to show events in a new light, my opinion will obviously be altered to reflect this.

Hehe, alright. Just wanted to get that out of the water.

Anyway, there's not much else to say anymore -- I think we've argued out the best of this topic. So there's no reason to go on anymore. Also, don't think I'm not taking into consideration what you say. It's one of the reasons I posted this. It is just I am more biased towards us losing liberties... and I think it is an area of the topic that should be brought up.

[yokinazu]

i will have to say that i am not stupid enough to broadcast m doings publicly, hell read any post that i made about using credit cards to buy grow equipment with. but why listen in on american citezens? i can understand those who are not citezens. also i do not think we should give immunity to anyone, especially the gov't. they should be the ones that are furthest from immunity. say they arret and detain you or a family member for terorist activity then its proved to be wrong wouldnt you want some sort of retribution?

by the way i am a liberal who has and will vote for a conservative i they make sense and will do the right thing. but unfortunatly neither the repubs or the dems seem too interested in that now a days.

[Rusty Trichome]

Hehe, alright. Just wanted to get that out of the water.

Anyway, there's not much else to say anymore -- I think we've argued out the best of this topic. So there's no reason to go on anymore. Also, don't think I'm not taking into consideration what you say. It's one of the reasons I posted this. It is just I am more biased towards us losing liberties... and I think it is an area of the topic that should be brought up.

You know...I can truly appreciate and fully respect that.
Bonus rep points for ya. :jointsmile:

[norkali]

B) I'm perfectly willing to have a couple of minor portions of my civil rights reigned-in for the sake of the rest of my fellow americans safety and security.

'Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.'

-Benjamin Franklin, 1775.


Well, I'm guessing you are including Sen. Reid, (and his minions) in this conspiracy theory? This whole post centered around the bill being signed by Sen. Harry Reid, clearing just one of the hurdles that our lawmakers must clear before passing into law. Very big conspiracy, indeed.

Technically, yes, this is a conspiracy. Unwarranted surveillance of American citizens is definitely 'unlawful' under the Constitution. I'm sure this plan was talked about in secret before it was brought to public attention. So yes, it was a conspiracy.


I don't stand at the top of the mountain saying...'this government sucks, is corrupt, and all who believe differently than I are patent liars, un-educated and brainwashed.'

You should sometime. You do know, this isn't China. We have something called the 1st Amendment - the freedom of religion, press, and expression.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," - Evelyn Beatrice Hall

[Rusty Trichome]

Technically, yes, this is a conspiracy. Unwarranted surveillance of American citizens is definitely 'unlawful' under the Constitution. I'm sure this plan was talked about in secret before it was brought to public attention. So yes, it was a conspiracy.

You mean they don't hold those national security meetings in public any more...? Those bastards.

Ok...you convinced me. I'm wrong, you are right.

Then again, maybe not.

Summary from CNet news...
It also says, as George Washington University law professor Orin Kerr notes, that 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) warrants are not needed for Internet or telephone "surveillance directed at a person reasonably believed to be located outside of the United States." What that means is that the National Security Agency can plug into a switch inside the United States (when monitoring someone outside the country) without seeking a court order in advance.

The link for more:
FAQ: How far does the new wiretap law go? | CNET News.com (http://www.news.com/FAQ-How-far-does-the-new-wiretap-law-go/2100-1029_3-6201032.html)

[norkali]

You mean they don't hold those national security meetings in public any more...? Those bastards.

I have no problem with national security meetings being held in secret, as long as they don't end up infringing upon my constitutional rights.

Also, I wasn't talking about people outside of the U.S.; I am specifically talking about, (like in the article,) Americans on U.S. soil being monitored. Nothing to do with outside countries. :wtf:

[mfqr]

I have no problem with national security meetings being held in secret, as long as they don't end up infringing upon my constitutional rights.

Also, I wasn't talking about people outside of the U.S.; I am specifically talking about, (like in the article,) Americans on U.S. soil being monitored. Nothing to do with outside countries. :wtf:

The meetings need to be held in secret, though. If it was public, the enemy would know all of the plans, and then it would therefore make it that much easier for them to compromise the security. Think of computer security for a second. An admin of a server hosting a website would never post their method of security, or what they plan to secure it with, on the website for everyone to view. That is stupid, and only allows the enemy to have more information to plan their attacks around.

[8182KSKUSH]

Well, just last year I sprouted a few hundred strawberry cough girls, just in time I finished tinkering with my electric meter, so I could rip off the electric company, I was a happy person (non descript wording may be used because of feds searching these boards).

So as I am waiting to harvest I call up my buddy in Argentina, who then conference calls our friend in Indonesia so we could talk to a guy named Amahedia about buying some guns and maybe a few hundred pounds of explosives. (completely harmless background info not related to this story)

Well a few days later the Feds come knocking on my door with a warrant. They "say' because of some phone call i made, yeah right, They say I may be a terrorist, then stumble onto my personal garden. My lawyer got thee terrorist charges dropped, because everyone knows you need a lot of guns and explosives to blast a tree stump out of the ground.

The charges for cultivation however stuck and I now will be serving time, and for some reason I owe the electric company 1000's of dollars. Damn the Man!

So don't be fooled the government will spend millions to get the little guy any way they can....


This is really true............really it is.








No, Really. :jointsmile:

Really, really? This is true really? Then if this IS true, your arrest should be a matter of public record correct. Should be verifiable right. Could you get us some additional info or just rep me with a key word that i could use to search the web myself to verify. I won't hold my breath.:thumbsup:

[8182KSKUSH]

I was actually backing up your point, and I thought I had laid the sarcasm on quite heavily.....Besides I have neither the need or the patience to sprout a "few hundred".

Sorry for the earlier post, obviously I need to finish the entire thread before I respond, my bull shit meter just wouldn't quit!:jointsmile:

[8182KSKUSH]

Interesting replies, to say the least. My opinion on this matter is that we are getting closer and closer to a Big Brother-like government. Oh, wait a second! They can already spy on you and watch whatever you do.

For anyone that thinks that this bill is in our (citizens) best interests, how can you think that? That it's in your best interest to possibly be spied on? Maybe we, as adults, do not know what is best for ourselves, right? Maybe oppression is the answer to a war that we cannot win, and that never has an objective of completion. Therefore, when the hell is this going to stop? Oooooh, that's right. It won't stop, because the War on Terror doesn't either. Obviously, nobody wants to give up their power. This bill, including many others (yes, even The Patriot Act, and the Homeland Security Act, and the Violent Radicalization and Homgrown Terrorism Act (has not passed yet, thank GOD!)), do not have our best interests in mind. They have the government's best interests in mind, and already in hand! You know, I cannot believe how some of you can justify these things in the name of a war that will never end, or at least has no end in sight. Do some of you actually think that it's hard to topple over a democracy when the methods used are ones that do not stage a coup, but pass bills in secrecy, and gain the support of the citizens? Those of you who support this stuff... you're actually supporting the ending of our democracy. Or at least the attempted ending of our democracy. It's in plain sight. This bill shows it very clearly... these kind of bills have absolutely no place in a free and open society.

By the way, Norkali, nice propaganda posters. I love readin' them things ;).

We don't and never have had a "Democracy", our gov was based on a "Constitutional Republic". Least that's what I heard.:thumbsup:

[Peruvian Devil]

We don't and never have had a "Democracy", our gov was based on a "Constitutional Republic". Least that's what I heard
Finally some who knows something about the US !!!!!!!!!!

[mfqr]

We don't and never have had a "Democracy", our gov was based on a "Constitutional Republic". Least that's what I heard.:thumbsup:

What you're talking about is speculation on what our government was founded on, not what it is now. Also realize that there is a very thin line between a democracy and a republic. In fact, as I see it, a Republic is the foundation of a Democracy, more of an overall, general term. Democracy is a more detailed perspective, regarding many more issues(it's a more complex system). However, that can be argued, as "Republic" and "Democracy" are nearly exactly the same. It's pretty hard to see the difference (for me), so my definition of it is based on speculation.