Help noob with new clones PLEASE!

[BuzzPion]

I have had my girls now since December 14th. I am trying my best to get these going. I am using the Lucas method with GH nutes 0-5-10 B-M-G pH is 6.15 PPM is 740. I started them on this on Dec 30th with half strength for a day and a half. I had to change to full strength due to a bone head move that caused a leak. The plan was to run 1/2 strength for a week and switch to full. I had a res with full strenth when I had the leak so just switched out to full early. Water temp is 70F two long air stones and a power head in the 22 gal tank. Temps in the day are 77-78 and 70-68 at night. Running 18/6. Lots of air movement during the day when lights are on.

Plants are not thriving--most have a purple color to the stems and underneath the leaves. Leaves are turning brown and new leaves are curled. The three in the back are Permafrost and the others up front are Trainwreck.

One idea I have is that the nutes are too strong. The other is some sort of difficiency. I have some liquid karma that I could try. Attached are some pics.

Buzz
-indoor
-hydroponic
-clay pellets
-DWC
-Anything you have added to the soil
-tap water starting Ph 7.3 ppm 70
-Clone taken 14 Dec
-t5 flor tube blue 6 150W eq CFL full spect 6500K

-% Relative humidity ~35%
-Lighting schedule 18/6
-small grow tent w 250 cfm inline fan w/carbon filter. One 4" and one 5" vent at bottom with ducting to plants. One small box fan and one small regular fan (see pics)

[dejayou30]

Definitely over nuted. Flush em out and start again with a weaker solution.

[Weedhound]

Deja is right.....they look pretty darn fried. WAY weaker nute strength and watch and correct your ph like a hawk. They look pretty damaged however.

[BuzzPion]

Ughh. That's what I thought. Going to run a weak nute solution for a couple days and bring the levels back up slowly over the next couple weeks.

[BuzzPion]

OK, I did a water change and now have pH 6.18 PPM 240. I also flushed each plant with clean pH 6.2 water. I will continue to flush wiyh a weat nute solution.

Should I drop the PPM lower or is this enough?

Buzz

[Weedhound]

That's low enough. One of the main things to watch for is ph rising....which it will in nuteburned plants.....quickly. The other thing is watch your ppms....if the number rises keep adding ph correct water to dilute it. The plants may drink alot of water right now and leave the nutes behind.....they already have too many on board....so you need to watch it carefully.

Buzz.....they look pretty chewed. The only thing you can really hope for is healthy new growth....those leaves aren't going to improve so keep an eye out for any sigsn of NEW growth. They honestly look pretty sick to me.

Good Luck.

[Weedhound]

Revised: The Complete Guide To Sick Plants,pH and Pest Troubles - PlanetGanja.com (http://www.planetganja.com/highsociety/showthread.php?t=8778) This link is worth a look through as well.

[BuzzPion]

Thanks. I was not happy with the clones from day one. The place where I got them was filthy and although I cut them correctly, the sanitary conditions were not up to what they should have been (actually far from it). They were a couple of old school hippies who aren't all about being clean...anyway.

I plan to start from seeds and get a mother going--one that I know how it was cared for etc. I can get myself to Canada or order online. Neither of which I am comfortable with.

Bummer, but I am learning...

Buzz

[stinkyattic]

Looks like you've got some scarring from a Mg def.
And I've seen clones behave like that when they were allowed to sit in the prop dome too long after rooting and the roots were exposed to air and began to brown and rot. Keep an eye on the NEW growth, including root growth. Are the roots white, or do they show some brown?

[BuzzPion]

The roots are pure white and fuzzy (the good kind). If anything, they went into the DWC a bit early. I just ordered some seeds (Nirvana Papaya) so I am going to start over. I plan to get a good mother out of the batch of 10 seeds I am getting. Gonna let my Mom take care of her as a house plant.

I had thought it was a deficiency, but I think I just burned them on full strength nutes. I'm learning though. The only thing I am good a growing is a beard--but I think I can get this all figured out.

Buzz

[stinkyattic]

I really think you should give your plants a bit more chance before giving up on them- a week or so and watch the new growth.
That Papaya is a nice knockoff. They did a good job. Watch for unusually resinated individuals; I even got a resinated MALE in my pack and bred him into a Papaya F2 to back up the genetics and share with buddies. It's also easy to grow and the product is VERY pleasant.

[BuzzPion]

I plan to stick it out with them for sure. My wife was just asking me why I was gonna get rid of them too. I got the seeds coming so if they all give up the ghost then I will start over.

In fact, they all do have some nice new leaves coming in. I really want to save the 3 Trainwreck plants especially.

Do you think I should trim off the brownest of the big leaves? I did that to one plant and it looks OK thus far.

pH has been creeping up as expected but never higher than 6.45. I shoot for 6.0 and actually drop below that (to like 5.6) as I can only check pH when I am here (and I work a bit).

I'm going to try and get them on to full strength nutes and then put them into flower.

Buzz

[FlyGuyOU]

get your lights closer

[stinkyattic]

Wait a few days before dropping the lights. You want to make absolutely certain that the little root systems can take the heat.
Leave the leaves until they just pull off with a slight tug.

[BuzzPion]

Well, the girls have been doing OK I think. At least they are not dead and dry! I've seen some good root growth--pure white and full of very fine hairs. pH does creep up over 24 hours but never above 6.3. I am shooting for 5.8. PPM has been brought up slowly to 420--I replace evaporate with full strength solution. Started Liquid Karma yesterday and 2ml/gal (which is a fairly low amount).

Here are some pics I took today. The new leaves look curled--not sure why that is.

Buzz

[PharmaCan]

Buzz - You seem to have your plants on a good regimen, but they still look ghastly. Do you calibrate your meters regularly? You might want to calibrate and make sure you are getting true readings. Also, that aluminum foil really isn't a very good idea. It can cause hot spots. The foil shouldn't matter if all you are using now are cfl's. But something just isn't right with your grow, so you might as well start eliminating little things.

PC :smokin:

[stinkyattic]

I'm wondering how much of that deformity on the newer growth was caused by the severe damage the plants suffered while that same new growth was forming at the terminal node... The soft new growth that was exposed to the problem would certainly grow wrong, and after the problem went away, normal growth would resume. I want to see what the growth of the NEXT set of leaves looks like before throwing in the towel on those plants. Their color has certainly improved.

[BuzzPion]

I'm using a 4 tube t5 unit as well as the cfl's. I need to get some white plastic instead of the foil--it's on the list.

I use a Hanna pH, PPM meter and calibrated about three weeks ago. I will calibrate again tonight.

I am endeavoring to persevere with these girls. The next grow will be from seed...

Thanks for all the input folks! I wish I knew somebody local who knows how to grow (I probably do, it's just that they don't advertise--neither do I!).

Buzz

[BuzzPion]

Just a little update. The girls are doing fine I think. I did a water change yesterday and dropped the ppm back a bit to 690 ppm from 890. Some leaf tips were starting to curl although I think that might have just been the older growth from back when I had the first problems (like Stinky said supra). I a\also upped the LK to 5ml/gal (half strength)

I had to cull one of the Permafrost plants--just not enough room!

I think I should start to flower soon, but I wanted to get them stabilized first.

Here are some pics:

[Rusty Trichome]

GH nutes 0-5-10 B-M-G

Is this a misprint...? Are you using the bloom formula or the grow formula? Both?
The plants need nitrogen sooner or later, lol.

B=Bloom cycle (flowering)
M= micros (micronutes and other good stuff)
G= Grow cycle (vegging)

[BuzzPion]

I am using GH nutes and following the Lucas Formula http://boards.cannabis.com/hydroponics/91474-lucas-gh-3-part-formula.html

[Rusty Trichome]

IDK. Couldn't find any nute schedule on GH's site that remotely looked like yours, for the Flora series. They all show using it in veg. As long as you are sure you're not overdosing on the micro's.
Seems like you would need the primary nutes in the gro formula that aren't present in the micro formula. Otherwise, why get the gro in the first place? Why make it?
Again...IDK. This hydro stuff is way beyond me.

Glad to hear they are looking better, tho.:thumbsup:

[Help_Needed]

Again...IDK. This hydro stuff is way beyond me

Obviously. Maybe next time do some research before you offer "advice" that is essentially meaningless?

The Lucas formula is a fairly well known nute program that uses GH products, normally their FloraMicro and FloraBloom - FloraGrow is NOT used. It was formulated specifically for growing marijuana, and offers a number of benefits - namely that it's very simple and does not require the grower to change out their reservoir at any point of the grow. Those of us who've used the formula have gotten very good results with it.

Admittedly, there are other experienced growers who have gotten better results with other formulas - slightly higher yields and/or somewhat better taste. But for those of us, like myself, who are happy to just get from seed to weed, the Lucas formula works wonders.

To OP: If you're working off the "original" formula, Lucas recommended using 0-5-10 for veg, and 0-8-16 for flowering. He's since revised these recommendations. He now recommends using 0-5-10 for the whole grow under flouros, and 0-8-16 for the whole grow under HID. If you bumped it up to 0-8-16 under your T5's, that probably explains why you burned them. Also, as mentioned, double check your meter calibration. I had a pH meter go bad on me on my first grow and all hell broke loose.

[stinkyattic]

I really think the wrinkle effect was a high-pH issue plain and simple and it's wonderful to see that sort of recovery. The plants look better than I even expected coming back to this thread so soon.

[BuzzPion]

I too think it was pH. I calibrate weekly now or if I get a whacky number.

Also, I think I had pH issues with the hydrotron pellets (or whatever those little brown balls are). Learning is fun!

I did not realize the formula had been revised. That's actually great news--I had not switched yet and really didn't want to! I'll have to research that more.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Buzz

[Rusty Trichome]

Obviously. Maybe next time do some research before you offer "advice" that is essentially meaningless?
And what advise did I give? As stated, IDK (I don't know) a damn thing about hydro, and was curious about the nute schedule for my own education and reference.
In the future I will gladly gain my info from a source that plays well with others. :jointsmile:

[PharmaCan]

Damn, Buzz, those plants are looking good! :thumbsup:

PC :smokin:

[stinkyattic]

I too think it was pH. I calibrate weekly now or if I get a whacky number.

Also, I think I had pH issues with the hydrotron pellets (or whatever those little brown balls are). Learning is fun!
Here's the deal on hydroton.
For the first week of use, you can add pH down twice a day or more and it will STILL rise! HT needs to be pre-soaked before use- big tub, air stone to mix, add pH down, go away 12 hours, come back, test pH, more pH down, repeat until it holds stable at around pH 6.
Wrinkly leaves are a common sign of high pH problems.

[BuzzPion]

Just a quick update. I plan to start flowering tomorrow. They seem to be doing good with the nutes I am giving them (GH G-M-B:0-2.5-5). 660 PPM 5.8 pH. Oh, and 4ml/gal of Liquid Karma.

Also, I'm not going to really trim anything unless it is a lighting issue (like big fan leaves). Is that really dumb? I'm a bit skeerd of pruning them as they are looking so good--don't want to cause problems.

Thanks--

[stinkyattic]

Don't trim big fan leaves. Taht's where the plant's energy comes from.

[Weedhound]

They look good now Buzz.....good work. :thumbsup:

[BuzzPion]

Update: 16 days post flowering.

Well, one thing I can say is that just getting started and actually growing something--anything, will lead you down the path of cannabis growing enlightenment. Just like anything else, you really learn something when you get off your ass and actually start doing it! Imagine that...

Anyway, here they are. There are buds everywhere! I know they are jam packed in there. I didn't trim anything (I was skeered) and should have. (That's the whole learning while doing thing). Next time for sure. I am actually going to be setting up my next batch. I got some Papaya seeds from Nirvana and I am going to try and get a mother or two started. I think I can get my Mom to keep an on eye on them. She's 70 now and still a pistol. Just showed her the box and she was amazed at how much they grew since she last saw them. I started to tell her about how they are set up and she said, "Oh, hydroponics"? :wtf: She wants to grow some tomatoes--no really, tomatoes! ;)

Sorry for being chatty--I just medicated when I got home.

pH 5.78
PPM 793 (they seem to like weaker nutes. I am trying to bring them up s-l-o-w-l-y. I wonder if there is anything to the mother being grown in dirt and me making hydros out of her girls.)
G-M-B 0-5-10 GH Nutes and 8ml/gal Liquid Karma
Temps: Day ~70F Night ~72F Water ~68F
4 2' T5's 3000k and 4 150w eq cfl's 6500k daylight.

Roots look great with lots of bubbles/movement to the water. I have two air stones and a power head in there. I did notice some limp leaves that dropped off the bottom. I figure that these are cast off due to them not getting enough light. I modified a bit today to get more lights to the bottom of the plants.

I plan to start a grow log for the new seeds I got that I plan to get a mother going. Should be interesting.
Buzz