Foliar Feeding & Liquid Light, Miracle Food or Hoax?

[Opie Yutts]

Iâ??ve never foliar fed, so I guess itâ??s time to start. Heard good things. Actually Iâ??ve been hearing good things for years but have been reluctant to put another 4 or 5 items in my storage area, and an additional reoccurring dent in my bank account. My wife is absolutely thrilled when I pull that crap, and itâ??s been going on ever since I told her years ago that she can be happy now, because Iâ??m pretty much done spending money on the project, other than for the basic stuff like one veg nute and one bloom nute, and some PH down. Iâ??m not sure how many times I told her I was done, but itâ??s at least several or more. Sorry babe. Love ya and thanks for your semi-patience. The supply area reminds me of the Stephen King story where the plant matter slowly took over the guy, and he eventually became mostly a plant before killing himself. The area for my nutrients stuff just keeps spreading and growing, and has breached the boundaries of the nutrients cabinet. I think thereâ??s a peppermint Schnapps in the back that I could take out for a little more precious space. Quick tip: Get various sizes of squeeze bottles from a candy/cake making supplier. Theyâ??re awesome for storing and dispensing nutrients, chemicals and mixes. You get to control the flow from the bottle by where you cut the tip off the spout, and they have a cap the does OK at keeping stuff in when you shake it. Plus you can store them away from the bulky jugs. I love em, but I digress. A lot. Sorry.

Today I bought both Dutch Masters veg and bloom Folitech, and their wetting agent called Penetrator. As many of you probably know, that stuff is for foliar feeding. Tomorrow I will return them and get Liquid Light instead. At least I am leaning very heavily in that direction. It does everything that the Folitechs do, plus some greatly improved stuff. Or something. Check this out from the mfg, and hereâ??s where I am forced to ROF and LMAO:

Designed to massively increase the amount of light your plants can use, LIQUID LIGHT will turn your plants into light processing power houses - using over 60% more of the light you provide!. Get 600w performance from a 400w light â?? with LIQUID LIGHT its easy!

Liquid Light specs and directions:
http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/products/products.php?product=2 (http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/products/products.php?product=2)
Dutch Master home page:
http://www.dutchmaster.com.au (http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/)

Iâ??m not wrong here am I? Dutch Master is generally accepted as top of the line stuff, right?

Are the instructions for foliar feeding in the above link pretty much the way you people foliar feed? Or is it more likely that Liquid Light is an abnormal foliar feeding agent? I am very worried about this:

Ensure your lights are on and will be for at least the next 3 hours. This is very important!
Make sure your lights are a minimum of 18 to 24 inches from the tops of your plants then spray your plantsâ?¦ at some point they say to spray until it pools and runs off.Nooo. Please, you are not supposed to leave standing liquid on your leaves under bright light, or it acts like a magnifying glass in the sun focused on a frog, and fries the living daylights out of it. So what the heck are they trying to do to me? Iâ??ve got enough crap going on that I donâ??t need the aggravation of a fried crop, of which Iâ??ve spent many, many hours with. Certainly more than my pets. I hope not more than my family. Of course I could move the lights back a safe distance, but that would defeat the whole purpose of Liquid Light. Either that or I completely misunderstand what the concepts are here. The other stuff Iâ??ve read about what time of the day to foliar feed, says as soon as the lights come on or 10 minutes or so before the lights go out. Also what about their Max FX which you are supposed to spray on alternate days? Plus, they have some more things they want you to add. So much crap for some foliar feeding, but if it would even do ¼ of what they claim, it would be well worth the money and effort. Has anyone used these products, and if so do you do it according to the directions?

To make an extremely long and drawn out question short, What do you people use to foliar feed and how and when do you do it. Time of day, number of days, anything. What kind of sprayer do you use? I got one of them fancy schmancy pump up ones with an extended, aimable brass nozzle. I just hope it sprays nice and fine and thorough instead of in hot spots. Iâ??ve been looking for a good one for years and have bought at least 8. This is the most expensive one Iâ??ve bought so far, but itâ??s not the best there is, Iâ??m sure. It was like $25 or something.

Thanks very much, and Iâ??m very sorry for the long and broken up, rambling, drawn out question. I could go on, but Iâ??m pretty baked right now and itâ??s kinda hard to be eloquent and keep a straight line of thought. More baked than Iâ??ve been in several days, and notice that I choose to spend it with you guys. Love ya, sniffâ?¦

By the way, I know the top of the fridge is not the best spot for nutrients, since heat comes up the back. Iâ??m arranging another space in a few days. I have a mini refrigerator. What are anybodyâ??s thoughts on storing nutrients and stuff in a fridge? Seems like it can only be a good thing. They have the Clonex in the fridge at the hydro store. Wow, my neck is sore. I need a VR suit in a gravity-free pod when Iâ??m using the computer.

[Opie Yutts]

...

[Opie Yutts]

Oh and there's more. Some gallon containers of stuff in the laundry room and cloning gel in the fridge. Soon I'll need several rooms.

[Mr. Clandestine]

I'm kinda eager to hear some replies on this, too. I've foliar fed before, but only when I wanted to treat a plant for a specific issue. I've never done it as part of a nutrient regimen.

By the way, Opie: Hilarious post! And keep on smoking, chief...it brings out an entirely different kind of eloquence in you. The humorous kind.

[OLDJIMMYBONES]

dam opie, quite a collection you have there.

now i gotta go to the store, feel like i have nothing in comparison. (pic)

but on topic, never heard of foliar feeding, but looks very intresting (Foliar feeding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foliar_feeding)) hope it works out for you

[OLDJIMMYBONES]

found a few articles that may be useful

Foliar Feeding Factsheet - Gardening Australia - ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s237862.htm)
foliar feeding (http://cals.arizona.edu/turf/ccps101.htm)
Foliar Feeding of Plant Nutrients (http://www.ext.vt.edu/news/periodicals/commhort/2002-11/2002-11-03.html)

or maby not thought there were prity intresting though

[BeachBum420]

Must be some Miracle Grow in those piles HeHe:D:D

[Opie Yutts]

No, the MG is in a cupboard in the laundry room, right by the Osmocoat. Both haven't moved for about 5 years.

[rhizome]

Oh man, that's nothing. Ya shoulda seen the pantry last time I ripped out. :wtf:
Wait'll ya start thinking about getting a pesticide applicator's cert- that's the mark of somebody who's losing it. Or buying very specific compunds from chemical suppliers...

Have ya discovered Crop Production Services, Inc. yet? Ya can get anything,:thumbsup:
but ya gotta buy a pallet.:wtf:

I kinda think of foliar feeding as a medicinal treatment- It's something that I do as a respose to a situation, not as part of a regular nutrition regimen. What I'm putting on, and the concentration, are dictated by symptoms.

At one point, I ran a big system that had to be maintained at a pH of >7.5 ( Don't ask- there were fish involved) Macro availability was w/in tolerance, but there were absolutely no metals available. I'd run a micro supplement (used a couple differant- Greenair Mineral Matrix, Cropking's micro to 100-150ppm), a little ferrous sulphate, Proteckt, and some seaweed as a wetting agent ( also GA). ( Ca & Mg avail due to all that lime for those damn fish)

(Hit that space a couple of times w/ Cal-Nite as well, but special circumstances.)

For that we used a compresser and an auto-body sprayer. Caution- Protekt will hose on an auto sprayer.

In less surreal circumstances, I like a 1/2 gallon pump sprayer for most stuff- keep the pressure real high and the aperture real small- particle size counts. You want the finest mist you can achieve. You can get a really fine mist with a hand sprayer, but the mechanism fails damned quick. Metal tips hold up better than plastic. Wands aren't as handy as they seem.

Foliar's my preferred method for growth regulators- I really like Bushmaster and Purple Maxx as foliars- 3ml/g on the purple, more like 2 on the bushmaster.

Really, anything where there's a fine line between effective and toxic, I'll try to go foliar- you have much better dose control building a level over a couple of days , rather than pouring something into soil where it will take several days to be effective. Most toxicities will first show as leaf symptomology, but at that point the whole plant has a systemic toxicity that's gotta work it's way through. If you keep your application concentrations really low, and build tissue levels w/ repeated doses, it's easier to catch things before they go to far.

Doesn't work as well for the macros- you're just trying to move to many ions in the wrong direction. Way too easy to build toxic concentrations in leaf tissue way too fast.

Oddly enough, a little electrostatic charge will really help penetration on a foliar. Remember, there's leaf surface penetration and there's canopy penetration- the best chemistry on Earth won't help if you're missing stuff.

I like to spray from a couple feet back, to give the mist a little space to particularize ( is that even a word?)- :hippy:more like a fog, less like a monsoon.:hippy:

Pardon my stonedness.

[Opie Yutts]

rhizome,

You use your mouth prettier than a $20 whore. The things you know about that I've never heard of continue to surprise me. Thank you for dropping in and giving me more things to research. I hope you donâ??t mind a couple six more questions.

Wait'll ya start thinking about getting a pesticide applicator's cert- that's the mark of somebody who's losing it.
Wow, taking it to the boundaries and beyond.

Or buying very specific compunds from chemical suppliers...
Iâ??ve actually wanted to look more into this, but Iâ??m too afraid I will invent some miracle food and become a rich snob.

Have ya discovered Crop Production Services, Inc. yet?
Not yet, but I will.

I kinda think of foliar feeding as a medicinal treatment- It's something that I do as a respose to a situation, not as part of a regular nutrition regimen. What I'm putting on, and the concentration, are dictated by symptoms.
Iâ??ve read a lot of things lately that say it is a good idea to feed through the leaves as well as the roots. And Iâ??ve read that it is a very good way to fix deficiencies because you will see results in a matter of minutes instead of days or weeks. The plant gets extra food over the nutrient EC maximum. I figure that's gotta be a good thing. I'm forcing food down the stomata. Is this naive?

For that we used a compresser and an auto-body sprayer. Caution- Protekt will hose on an auto sprayer.
I think Iâ??m getting a better idea of the scale of your projects.

In less surreal circumstances, I like a 1/2 gallon pump sprayer for most stuff- keep the pressure real high and the aperture real small- particle size counts. You want the finest mist you can achieve. You can get a really fine mist with a hand sprayerâ?¦
Yeah, thatâ??s what I was thinking and I hope this newest one does that.

â?¦but the mechanism fails damned quick.
Oh way to rain on my parade.

Really, anything where there's a fine line between effective and toxic, I'll try to go foliar- you have much better dose control building a level over a couple of days , rather than pouring something into soil where it will take several days to be effective.
Iâ??ve never thought about that advantage but it makes perfect sense.

If you keep your application concentrations really low, and build tissue levels w/ repeated doses, it's easier to catch things before they go to far.
Are you saying that you can actually increase the thickness of the foliage, or is it like the cellular structure, or well what do you mean build tissue levels? Is this done with silicone? Lord I probably sound like an idiot.

Doesn't work as well for the macros- you're just trying to move to many ions in the wrong direction. Way too easy to build toxic concentrations in leaf tissue way too fast.
Glad you asked. So it works fine for micros like Iron? Because you asked me once if I was sure my N deficiency wasnâ??t really Fe chlorosis. The more I learn about that and compare it to my plants, the more I think it is. What do you recommend I foliar spray to improve the iron content. I may try some CalMag. If I understand correctly, youâ??re saying foliar feeding doesnâ??t work well for the macros like N,P,K but it does for the micro nutrients?

Oddly enough, a little electrostatic charge will really help penetration on a foliar.
So how do I do DIY that without electrocuting myself?

One last thing I've been wondering but keep forget to ask. Can you basically foliar feed with anything you feed the roots with? With the exception of the macro nutrients not being absorbed as well, would the micros be about the same thing? Bleahg - I can talk, what I mean is, can I mix up my grow nutes and foliar feed with them during the veg cycle, and can I use my bud nutes to foliar feed during the budding cycle? Etc.?

Thanks again for all your help rhizome, and anyone else jumping in here.

[rhizome]

Morning OP-

The plant gets extra food over the nutrient EC maximum. I figure that's gotta be a good thing. I'm forcing food down the stomata. Is this naive?

Just watch yourself- it's really easy to OD and fry yer shit ( talking crispy fried), esp w/ N. The plant gets extra nutes, which it may or may not be able to handle.

Are you saying that you can actually increase the thickness of the foliage, or is it like the cellular structure, or well what do you mean build tissue levels? Is this done with silicone? Lord I probably sound like an idiot.


Not at all- we're getting into weird science here. Referring to relative concentration of elements in tissue, tho foliar application of silica is associated with a thicker cell membrane. Silica, not silicone...;)

What do you recommend I foliar spray to improve the iron content.

Any good micro supplement will do the trick- see if yer local carries a product called " Spray & Grow". I like the citrate, rather than the EDTA, but that's a mighty fine point. Lotta liquified seaweeds are iron fortified these days, as well.

If I understand correctly, youâ??re saying foliar feeding doesnâ??t work well for the macros like N,P,K but it does for the micro nutrients?

Really more a matter of it maybe working too well- beware the fry factor.

One last thing I've been wondering but keep forget to ask. Can you basically foliar feed with anything you feed the roots with? With the exception of the macro nutrients not being absorbed as well, would the micros be about the same thing? Bleahg - I can talk, what I mean is, can I mix up my grow nutes and foliar feed with them during the veg cycle, and can I use my bud nutes to foliar feed during the budding cycle? Etc.?


Well, full strength nute will almost certainly fry leaf tissue- I'd cut it down to like 10% dose. Try to avoid getting flowers wet too often, as it can lead to fungal issues. Do yerself a favor and don't spray mollasses, or LK, or anything w/ a high sucrose level, as it will leave sticky surface sugars which will attact bugs and bacteria.

Again, I don't really think of foliars as a primary source of nutrients, except in truely esoteric circumstances.

Just 'cause ya can, doesn't always mean that ya should...

[rhizome]

Oddly enough, a little electrostatic charge will really help penetration on a foliar.
So how do I do DIY that without electrocuting myself?



You in dirt or water?

[PharmaCan]

tho foliar application of silica is associated with a thicker cell membrane...

Rhizome - Haven't seen you around here much lately. Hope you had a great holiday season!

What are the advantages of a thicker cell membrane? Is it anything that would warrant using silica on a regular basis as a matter of practice?

When you have a chance, would you please take a look at this thread (http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-problems/145999-preventing-powdery-mildew.html) and see if you have any thoughts on the subject. Thanks!!

PC :smokin:

[PharmaCan]

Oddly enough, a little electrostatic charge will really help penetration on a foliar.
So how do I do DIY that without electrocuting myself?

You fucking sissy! Wadda ya' think - you're going to live forever?:D

PC :smokin:

[rhizome]

Heya PC- replyed in the other thread.

[Opie Yutts]

Thanks again for looking in rhizome, and to answer your question I am in water.

Don't worry I'm getting your point. Don't fry them. I understand. Everything within moderation, especially at first. I trust you very much, but I've just read too many good things lately not to give it a try. The guy at the hydro store made it sound like a miracle technique, Dutch Masters basically claims their Liquid Light is a miracle food, much the way you introduced SubCulture to me. That thread and the other things I read made it sound like a person would have to be a complete idiot to not use it.

[Opie Yutts]

Wadda ya' think - you're going to live forever?:D

PC :smokin:

Why? Does this not fit in with your plans?

Actually, no. It's depressing when you look at the stats and compare where I am on those age-wize.

[OLDJIMMYBONES]

yo rhizome that pic of cheney is making me feel sick

[Opie Yutts]

Well I went to get Liquid Light today, and the Spray n Grow rhizome recommended, and a couple more things. Turns out you cannot get the LL in my area at this time. Something about a problem with the info on the label. My guess is they decided to not actually lie, like they do on their web site. I mean come on, Really. It turns a 400 watt light into a 600. Not happening.

So, added to my supply area today,
- Dutch Master Max FX grow
- Dutch Master Max FX flower
- Spray-N-Grow micronutrient complex and biocatalyst (0.10% iron)
- 4 calibration fluid
- 7 calibration fluid
Coming Soon:
- Dutch Master Liquid Light

Anyone interested in trying foliar feeding as feeding supplement, I recommend you look here:
Dutch Master: FOLIAR TECHNOLOGIES (http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/hv_product_ft.php)
That page also talks about "Reverse" you may or may not have heard so much about, which stops hermies from producing male flowers (they say).

[Weedhound]

Just to throw in some (possibly) useless info here. I'm not at ALL scientific but my hydro guys knows me pretty well....and if this foliar spraying thing were that terrific I'm sure he would have mentioned it to me.. Everytime I go in I ask him if there is anything more I should be doing so and the last 4-5 times there hasn't been so I'm pretty darn sure I've updated my data recently. :D

[Opie Yutts]

Have you asked your hydro guys what their thoughts are on foliar feeding? I mean ones that have tried it? I hope it's not a complete sham (what? Dutch Master lie to me?), or I just wasted... I don't know but it's well over $100. My hydro guys in two different stores were very excited about it. They say it absolutely makes the plants go crazy. Sorry people, I just gotta try, especially since they won't take back nutrients.

[Opie Yutts]

Oldjim, thanks for those links.

[OLDJIMMYBONES]

no problem, sorry i couldnt be more helpful, just have not a clue about thius subject, this is actually the 1st time ive heard of it, but it looks very intresting

[stinkyattic]

I remember foliar application of a tea made of chelated iron and silica derived from a boiled horsetail-weed, applied via high-pressure spray gun, at this facility where I used to tech... the particle size is much nicer than a hand-squeeze sprayer. I'm trying to think if there's a smaller-scale equivalent for home use.

[Opie Yutts]

I sure wish there was. I vaguely remember seeing some hand sprayers in the hundred dollar range. I would hope these would spray a fine mist in a full cone, instead of just the outer edges of a cone like most do. All they have to do is install a proper nozzle.

[stinkyattic]

I was thinking. I wonder if a system intended for airbrushing graphics would work. Seems like it should; it's basically a scaled-down auto body sprayer. The only thing I would be concerned about was making sure that the solution does not corrode the cone in the sprayer, since it's salty and acidic. You'd want to rinse out VERY well, maybe even running some alcohol (solvent) through as the last rinse step to get all traces of water out of there and make it work for longer.

[Opie Yutts]

Now that is a great idea. I've got like 4 or 5 of them around here somewhere, probably not unpacked from 5 years ago. A couple are kind of trashed and maybe I could try one. But where the heck is that little compressor?

[Weedhound]

OMG.....and you think X-C and I are geeks....auto sprayer...:S2:
Cannot WAIT to see this. :D

[stinkyattic]

OMG.....and you think X-C and I are geeks....auto sprayer...:S2:
Cannot WAIT to see this. :D
Well you ARE... but in a different way.
I want to put together a canncom team and compete in Junkyard Wars. I nominate xcrispi to be team captain, since it appears he's unusually mechanically inclined! :D

[Opie Yutts]

Now that would be fun.

[PharmaCan]

Well you ARE... but in a different way.
I want to put together a canncom team and compete in Junkyard Wars. I nominate xcrispi to be team captain, since it appears he's unusually mechanically inclined! :D

Team CanCom - we get the other side too stoned to fight. :D

PC :stoned:

[Opie Yutts]

Good team motto PC.

[Rock.Steady]

I was thinking. I wonder if a system intended for airbrushing graphics would work. Seems like it should; it's basically a scaled-down auto body sprayer. The only thing I would be concerned about was making sure that the solution does not corrode the cone in the sprayer, since it's salty and acidic. You'd want to rinse out VERY well, maybe even running some alcohol (solvent) through as the last rinse step to get all traces of water out of there and make it work for longer.

ok, I know EXACTLY what u need if u wanna do it with a gun.

HVLP
High Volume Low Pressure gun.
like a autospray paint gun, but uses a vacume turbine blower instead of a compressior.

AND, some companies used PLASTIC tip components.
i know 1 co. did for sure and i have some of their old equipment!

if u use a 0.073in nozzle, theres no chance u can get clogged and can always open the needle valve-style tip to blow out any gunk.

i'll look around, i know i have a couple of them here.

if i can find the setup, you're welcome to try it out.
u'll need to supply ur own turbine tho, that i wont give up.

a small shop vac can be easily rigged to do it.


-(edit)- i'm gonna go get some liquid lite, they had it at 2 places about a month or 2 ago and i didnt do it, now u got me psyched.

[Opie Yutts]

-(edit)- i'm gonna go get some liquid lite, they had it at 2 places about a month or 2 ago and i didnt do it, now u got me psyched.

And with good reason. I got a free sample of Liquid Light and Penetrator (be sure to use Penetrator), did 2 applications, and all I can say at this point is oh my, holy cow, holy crap, oh my God, good night, man, whew...

More to come.

I wrote all about it, then it got wiped out during the recent improvements. Maybe I can muster up the will power to try again later.

Anybody who tries it be sure to take a "before" picture to compare it to "after". I wish I did.

[Rock.Steady]

Opie
2 things,,,

1- i totally spaced on finding my spray gun, its on todays "to do" list;)

2- i got the LL yesterday, 1 local place has it. they do ship, i can give u their info, OR, i can get it for you and send it.
I only saw 1 size, the 34oz/1L was 50 bones.

not sure if they had a bigger size:wtf:

lemme kno bro:D


ps- i started using it, see the B.R. and P-scrog logs for results.
and i did do a b4 pic as u mentioned.;)

[Rock.Steady]

ok, found the old cupgun.:D
you can prolly get the residual coating off the inside of the cup with a strong solvent, or get a cheapo replacement from a place like Harbor Freight.

want it?

[Opie Yutts]

i got the LL yesterday, 1 local place has it. they do ship, i can give u their info, OR, i can get it for you and send it ...lemme kno bro
Thanks for thinking of your fellow stoner, I really appreciate the offer. I'll pass though, because I have a few ounces left from the sample, and tomorrow morning will be the last time this grow for me to foliar feed. I'm too paranoid about bud rot, since the hydro store guy said I should only foliar feed during the first week of flowering. Tomorrow will be 3 1/2 weeks into flower, but I've got about 30 humidity which isn't real conducive to mold or fungus growth. I'm hoping in a month or so when my next grow gets going good the stores around here will carry it, if not I was going to order it on line. Long story short, no thank you.


...i started using it, see the B.R. and P-scrog logs for results.
and i did do a b4 pic as u mentioned.

Awesome, looking forward to seeing a before and after shot or two. I'll check the logs, but maybe this thread would be a good place to show the folk as well.

[Opie Yutts]

ok, found the old cupgun.:D
you can prolly get the residual coating off the inside of the cup with a strong solvent, or get a cheapo replacement from a place like Harbor Freight.

want it?

For me? Wow. As lovely, lovely, legs Lilly says in Blazing Saddles, vhat a nice guy. This one I thought about quit a bit and had trouble deciding. It eventually came down to another no thank you. After having a chance to try my new hand sprayer, I am really quite satisfied with it. From the poorly conducted initial test I thought it was just spraying in the outer edges of a cone shape (outward from the nozzle of course), but after testing it on a couple surfaces I saw that it does spray in the middle areas of the cone as well. Note quite as well as I'd like, but not bad really. So for spraying plants, until I get like half a room to spray, I'll have to pass.

Now I also thought about saying yes just due to the fact that I have been putting off spraying some cabinets. They've just been sitting there in the family room we use more as a storage area, waiting for me to lacquer the parts and assemble and install them. About 1 1/2 yr. ago I bought a high end Wagner personal sprayer (some sonic deal) and have not even taken it out of the box yet. I don't even know if it works yet, so I was thinking of saying yes to your offer just so I could have a back up sprayer (got 2 compressors). To be honest, I thought it would probably end up sitting around here for a decade or so, since I'll probably never get to build my hot rod anyway. I would hate to see such a nice gesture go to waste, if indeed you planned on giving it to me. Now that I think about it you never said if you wanted anything for it, but either way I would like to see it go to a nice family that would take good care of it.

Thanks again.

[Opie Yutts]

PS, I feel extremely sorry for those of you who have not yet seen Blazing Saddles. Nowhere in the movie do saddles blaze up, but it is in my top 5 movies of all time. One of the funniest damn movies I've ever seen. There's even some MJ use for people like us. I don't know about you guys, but when I see someone tokin in a movie, for some reason I just have to do it as well.

[Weedhound]

Wait.....you two are SERIOUSLY talking about sprayguns for your plants......omg. :eek:

I'm going to get to the bottom of this.....

[Weedhound]

Well my hydro guy wasn't there but I'm told by the OTHER DUDE THERE it's a very hot product right now and they have been hearing about some "pretty amazing" results with it.

That means I should use it and luckily the hubby was scheduled to "make a hydro run" tomorrow so we will pick some up. :thumbsup:

[Opie Yutts]

I promise you will not be disappointed, unless of course your plants are already in perfect condition and nothing more could help. I wouldn't be surprised, but as for my plants and I, we both need help.

WH, Rock and other folks, please listen or read carefully: Be sure to use a surfactant AKA wetting agent. If you don't, please do not use Liquid Light as you very well might burn your plants and burn them good. A wetting agent makes the liquid much less likely to form pools on the foliage, which is what causes the magnifying glass effect that will toast the leaves. I have tried Wet Betty and Penetrator. Wet Betty works and is slightly less expensive. Even less expensive is 1/2 teaspoon liquid dish detergent per gallon of water. I imagine that works to a certain degree since I see people everywhere saying that it will work. However, this Liquid Light is unlike anything else you may have foliar fed with. It is some weird, strong, (and expensive) stuff, and I highly recommend using the best surfactant you kind find. I firmly believe that this is Penetrator by Dutch Master, which also makes the Liquid Light. From my own personal experience it covers much better and makes a nice thin film on nearly 100% of the leaf, with very little, if any pooling. Wet Betty did not do this for me; seems like she covered maybe 50-80%. I believe this becomes especially important since directions call for the plants to be wet during lights on, while having the light as close as possible until the plants are dry, unlike other foliar feeds that say to spray just before the lights go out. For more independent studies about Penetrator vs other stuff visit the Dutch Master web site.

Furthermore: This stuff does some weird stuff to your plants. It makes them completely stand up straight and tall and with all their fan leaves stretching up and out, just like when you see the pictures that have captions like "Here's what a happy plant looks like." You can see the plant get shocked from this sudden transformation slightly, in the leaves as a few of them twist and curl for a couple days. This is nothing to be alarmed at since they straighten out later. The whole point is that I want you people to start at half strength. I have not used any other ratio at this point, and I'm thinking it's pretty much enough. Besides that stuff is damn expensive. If you like you can always increase the dose next time, and you can do this up to every other day.

Also don't be surprised if there is a slight bit of coloring or brown spots in a very few places. Just like a few dots where the combination of the light and chemicals did burn the leaf. This is only on a very small percentage of leaf surface area, like less than 0.01% or something. At least that's been my experience.

[Rock.Steady]

Opie,
you're 1 gracious dude when passing on offers. Wow, I mean, WOW.:thumbsup:
ok man, no worries, I'll just puuuuut it back in storage, I have a "touch" of OCD and I'm a "Tool-Guy". That combination equates to about 700 lbs of tools of many different types and trades collected over the years. When someone needs a piece of equipment, I'm "that" guy who gets the call. I do use all the equipment I have, just not all at the same time. I have some tools that were stored for 4 years including two 3000 mile relocations before i used it again, but it was there when i needed it.:D

if indeed you planned on giving it to me. Now that I think about it you never said if you wanted anything for it,
its all about Karma my friend. I got a thing about Karma.
if u intended to try it on the grow, i was ready to box it up. n/c;). (i have more than 1)
But, thanks for the honest self-reality check. Let me know if u change your mind.;)
btw- wagner makes some 'decent' sprayers for the D-I-Y'ers, but sometimes they are finiky. If I were closer, i'd come over and help ya knock out those cabinets in a hot minute.:thumbsup: truth be told, i have a backround with this type of equipment. I am intimately familiar with it and using it on cabinets.;)

now on to the Liquid Light.

1- with all due respect to your hydro-guy, i disagree, with backing.
According to the Dutchmaster site and the extensive info on this product, you can use from the first week of veg thru to the 4th week of flwr. It is not recomended for use after the 4th week, for the reasons you mentioned. I will take the word of the manufacturer.;) and Galina is in week 4.

2- yes, I am using the Penetrator and agree with your assessment of its effect on absorption rate in the leaves. I personally turn off the HPS and use CFL's til dry(10-15 mins), just because i am paranoid. Then I fire up the HPS.

3- one thing u didnt mention is the 15 inch minimum for your lights to be away from the plant when using LL as per DM.
This rule does not apply to CFL's, which are what I'm using for veg and they are 3-6 inches away, with zero ill effects.

4- Brown spots. according to the DM site, this is actually caused by a reaction between some product ingredients and airborne bacteria that exists everywhere on earth, except a class 100 cleanroom(more personal knowledge). They go on further to state that it doesnt happen all the time, just on occassion and don't panic.

5- the physical reaction u mentioned. I went into complete panic mode yesterday because after i gave LL I also lowered the HPS. (It was considerably high up and I was considering lowering for a couple weeks, but procrastinated.) Within 4 hrs of applying the LL, the leaves around the larger,taller flowers did what I call a 'funnel' effect. almost straight up!:wtf: SEE THIS POST, CLICK HERE (http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/145775-blue-russians-invade-flower-room-3.html#post1792153) This freaked me out and i thought maybe i was frying them with the light lowering, so i raised the HPS again. Today, I checked and confirmed I was less than 15 inches from the light when i got the funnel-effect". This is a NO-NO according to the DM site. I raised the HPS to 16 inches above the screen today and poked n hooked everything down and Galina recovered with no visible ill effects, so far.
I will find the pics I took and post here also, tomorow, after i take the 48 hr pix.mmmmmmkay?
It is also stated on the DM site, that you should see significant growth within 48 hrs, lets see.;)

6- dosage frequency and levels. Recommended to be twice per week, but DM does go further to say an "aggressive" grower could spray every 2 days, as u mentioned. I personally followed the directions to the "T" and gave a full dose and will reapply tomorow morning. If the leaves 'funnel' again, i will not panic and will wait.
Recommended dosage levels are 60ml/4 tbsp LL per 1 liter/qt of final spray solution. Spray til runoff. They also say you can store it mixed in solution for a week.
I simply used clean water as my spray solution.
BTW- Penetrator dosage level is the same. I make up 1 cup water/1 tbsp LL/1 tbsp Penetrator. This is enough for 2 application sessions to everybody in the room.:D

7- "Blazing Saddles" a true classic of American comedy. Mel Brooks was certainly an insane genius. It is a MUST for every DVD collection,,,,,unless you hate to laugh:wtf:
if you do not laugh while watching this movie, check your pulse, you may already be dead.:wtf:

8- WH- Yes, have Mr Hound pick it up. I am only aware of 1 size. 34oz. Mine was 50 bones, but they were advertising an introductory discount price at my place. supposed suggested retail price is 60. so, dont be surprised by that for the size. as Opie said, it's expensive, but may indeed turn out to be more of a "worthy investment" rather than an "expense".

9- Dutchmaster does recomend you do not use other additives while using LL, unless its their "Gold" product line.
Now, my sales and marketing brain tells me this is to ensure and build brand loyaty. The techie in me, wonders if they mean "no other foliar products"?
Personally, I will continue to use Fox Farms Big Bloom in my watering nutes for my soil use, unless I see a disaster begin to unfold.
as Opie said go to the dutchmaster site for more info, they have much posted, I was glued to my monitor thru 2 cups of coffee....big cups:wtf:


holy canoli, that was the longest post i have ever composed here.:wtf:
I think it took about an hour with all the doubling back to each post and post-editting (i know there are still some spelling errors, if you find them, good! at least u didnt waste all those years in school :wtf:) ok, that was extreem sarcasm, but, im overdue to smoke too,LOL ;)

I really hope someone finds all this babbling useful.

I must now blaze:smokin:

Rock.

[Opie Yutts]

Wow, thanks for all that info and for going into more detail.

I just put it out there for alls yous to look at. I assume people will use common sense, read directions, and start low and slow, that is the temp oh.

About number 9 above, I use LL with Fox Farm's 3 part bloom enhancers (Beastie Blooms, etc.). I also foliar feed with Spray N Grow. Two LL, one SnG, Two LL, one SnG, and so on, about every other day, except I've missed the last 3 days. I've noticed no problems yet, except a slight indication of nute burn, which I believe was caused by me raising my PPM from 1400 to 1550 (overshot a little), or a combination of that and a bunch of foliar feeding. No big, they look great except for the yellowing toward the bottoms which was going on before, a little chlorosis.. OK fine, they don't look great.

[Rock.Steady]

as promised.

Behold: Liquid Light.

these are the before pix.

1st one is Galina, early in week 4 flwr.
2nd pic is the veg cabinet. the 3 larger ones are early week 6 veg.
the sprouts in tthe cups are 1 week.

[Opie Yutts]

And holy cow. I looked at that picture, and your's sure stood up more than mine. I wonder why. Your fan leaves are bigger, could that have something to do with it? Probably not I guess.

[Opie Yutts]

I guess we're posting at the same time. I meant the first picture in that link you posted.

[Opie Yutts]

tapping my foot, waiting patiently...

[Rock.Steady]

these are the after shots,,,,,48 hrs later.
according to DM, we should see a difference within 48 hrs.

keep in mind: I have been poking the leaves and hookin branches on Galina's cage to keep her below the 15 inch light threshold recomended by DM

IMHO- the lil ones are showing a bit of a jump.
Galina has definately grown in the last 2 days, but i think the veg cab is where the party is.

one other thing, i did swap positions with the veggers, but i think you can see whats happening.

pic 1 and 2 are shots of Galina

pics 3,4,5 are the veggers, with closeups of the 2 biggest.

and, yes, i did remove the P-scrog from the vegger.
its overkill at this time, i finally realized.:wtf:
i will re-mount when the time is right.


ok, what do YOU all think?

[Rock.Steady]

tapping my foot, waiting patiently...

wizeass:wtf::D

[Rock.Steady]

CRAP!, i just realized Galina is turned to a different position in before and after shots.
i thought i had it right, guess not.

for perspective, keep in mind there are flowers on 3 corners, but NOT on the 4th.
ill have to snap another tomorow, its already bedtime for her;)

if you look at Pic 1 (after) in your mind, u need to turn her cage clockwise 90 degrees

[Rock.Steady]

And holy cow. I looked at that picture, and your's sure stood up more than mine. I wonder why. Your fan leaves are bigger, could that have something to do with it? Probably not I guess.

my guess is the fact that i lowewred the lights same day.
and like a dope, i lowered them below the 15 inch minimum as stated by DM.

Galina recovered as you can see, and they did poke up today after application #2, but not nearly as severe.

carry on:cool:

[Rock.Steady]

Wow, thanks for all that info and for going into more detail.

I just put it out there for alls yous to look at. I assume people will use common sense, read directions, and start low and slow, that is the temp oh.



holy f'n crap, i was re-reading this for the 3rd time, and the tempo just hit me. I actually needed to read it 3 times, before i "got it":wtf:

you're whacked man, Nice! :S2:

hey Opie, is this gonna become the goto thread for LL?

[Opie Yutts]

I wasn't sure how many people would get that. Congratulations on being one of them.

And I hope this is the go to thread for Liquid Light. If not there needs to be one somewhere. The problem is if people are searching titles only, this thread doesn't have a good title for finding it. Maybe a mod could change the thread to something more informative like "Foliar Feeding & Liquid Light, Miracle Food or Hoax?"

[Opie Yutts]

Are there any mods in the cultivation section anymore? Or is it a free for all now?

[Rock.Steady]

Opie,
i would reach out for Stinkyattic, she has addy in her signature.:thumbsup:

[Rock.Steady]

ok, here's 2 shots with proper orientation for a proper visual comparison.
i still think the veggers react more substantially tho.

these pix r approx 60 hrs after 1st application, 24 hrs from 2nd.

[Rock.Steady]

ok, more input.

been spraying LL every other day for last week.
yesterday as a experiment, i lowered the HPS back to the level it was at when i freaked out.

sprayed LL again with the HPS slung low.

so far, very lil physical effects.

hypothesis-
i believe the initial 'shock' of using a hi-octane product like LL was more of a factor than my HPS height distance.

kinda like the difference from the 1st time u tried a 'shot' of whiskey. but a year later u can do 6 in a night:cool:

more to come:thumbsup:

[Rock.Steady]

LL update w/ pix

ok, so, been using LL for past 7 days = 4 applications, including 6 hrs ago.

i do believe we have positive effects.
u tell me???

1st pic, Galina
2nd pic, 1 Galina flwr closeup
3rd pic, P-Scrog Mystery Red (topped once)
4th pic, Mystery Red #2 la naturale (topped once)

and the light is still at the lower height of 13-14 inches off Galina, couple more inches for the Reds,,,which are shorter of course.

[Opie Yutts]

They're looking good to me. I'd say LL = :thumbsup:. And I agree that it wasn't your light causing any problems. I don't think there were any problems. I think you just had never seen anything like it before and freaked out. I probably would have freaked too if the hydro guy had not told me before hand what happens. (Even though I didn't quite believe him, sorry for doubting you hydro guy.)

Be sure to exercise caution when foliar feeding during flowering, especially in high humidity. If a bud grows around some moisture, boom, you've got bud rot. A different hydro guy told me to only foliar feed during the first week of flowering, or until some flowers start to show up. The directions say it's OK through the 4th week of flowering. I think under conditions of low humidity you could maybe even do it in weeks 5 or 6. Heck, it rains on outdoor buds and they do OK, usually.

[ToKAlot]

Ya i started using LL and i think it does a difference do you guys use the penetrator aswell!!

[Rock.Steady]

Galina started her 5th week sunday, and YES, using Penetrator as well.

its very dry here, and will maybe give her 1 more blast this week.

[fosomker]

Looks like I might have to check this stuff out. Great thread. I had been using VHO to help get mine to stretch because they are so dense.

Do you always have to leave your light 15" or is that just durning the application and dry time?

[ToKAlot]

And How many ML of LL and Pen to a Liter!!

[denial102]

excellent thread, big thanks to the two experimenters! is this foliar stuff just for flowering or can you use it during veg? :D

Denial

[Rock.Steady]

ok, i'm going to try to pop in some quick answers here since I am very active in this experiment, Move over Opie, I'm takin the wheel for a couple blocks:D

first off, i have a detailed tech write up in post # 43 of this thread on page 2.lets not get too lazy, scroll back boys;)


Ya i started using LL and i think it does a difference do you guys use the penetrator aswell!!
yes, we are using Penetrator. and it is STRONGLY recomended u do. It is a highly effective wetting agent, helps uniform absorbtion and u will likely burn the leaves without it as DM recomends spraying while under the lights.


Looks like I might have to check this stuff out. Great thread. I had been using VHO to help get mine to stretch because they are so dense.

Do you always have to leave your light 15" or is that just durning the application and dry time?
the 15 inch mark is DM's minimum limit from the light to avoid burn while using LL. I did read somewhere that they recomend approx 24 inch during your spraying/drying time.



And How many ML of LL and Pen to a Liter!!
dosage frequency and levels. Recommended to be twice per week, but DM does go further to say an "aggressive" grower could spray every 2 days, .
Recommended dosage levels are 60ml/4 tbsp LL per 1 liter/qt of final spray solution. Spray til runoff. They also say you can store it mixed in solution for a week.
I simply used clean water as my spray solution.
BTW- Penetrator dosage level is the same. I make up 1 cup water/1 tbsp LL/1 tbsp Penetrator.


excellent thread, big thanks to the two experimenters! is this foliar stuff just for flowering or can you use it during veg? :D
Denial
1st, yes, use in veg and up to the 4th wk of flwr according to DM, u may wish to evaluate factors like ur humidity levels and flowr density to determine how long into flwr u want to try. always avoid a mold/budrot scenario, ur mileage may vary:D
IMHO i think the boost they received was more substantial in veg. However, i would not recomend using before the 2nd node. I shot some babies early and the main single leafs got all twisty and have stayed that way, to me this is proof that the LL amplified my veg-cfl's so much that i ran on the borderline of burn-damage, i'll get a pic up to show what i mean.

ok, that should cover most of u for now.

ok Opie, u can drive again:D

[fredfarts]

I have been folier feeding seaweed with a paint sprayer for some time now. It adds BIG Time to the yield![attachment=o176393]

[Rock.Steady]

hey Fred.
how do u control the power coming out of that airless gun?
from my experience, usually u reqr at least 1000 psi to atomize properly. IMO this will created a powerful/forceful mist that can certainly knock those lil guys over in about a second.
additionally, your overspray must be going everywhere and creating a high moisture level in the air of the area which would in turn cause the mist to adhere to anything within a 5-10 ft radius. This would include, but not limited to, your electrical equipment. I would also assume u are getting moisture droplets forming on all surrounding walls. with that i would worry about things like promoting mold/mildew.

moisture plus electricity is a lousy combination in my book.

as u can tell, i am very familiar with this type of equipment.

any further info u can supply would be helpful, and thanks for playing.:D

[Rock.Steady]

hey Opie,
i reached out and think Stinky is gonna clean up the thread and slide it into "advanced",,,,and sticky it.

i'm guessing we may get some kinda notice/announcement, but i am speculating.

we may simply find ourselves teleported to the new section:abduct:

[stinkyattic]

Are there any mods in the cultivation section anymore? Or is it a free for all now?
Thank you Opie. I have in fact been popping in on this thread but didn't feel as if this particular crew needed to be babysat. Sorry. I'm spread a bit thin right now with a full time job and trying to get a farm up and running singlehandedly in time for the spring farmers markets (I have less than 3 months)... cut me some slack!

The thread is kind of a mess right now to stick- if someone would like to write a more concise and easy-to-follow tutorial on foliar feeding using this method I will put it in the FAQs, which are due for some serious maintenance pretty soon.

[Rock.Steady]

,,,,,

The thread is kind of a mess right now to stick- if someone would like to write a more concise and easy-to-follow tutorial on foliar feeding using this method I will put it in the FAQs, which are due for some serious maintenance pretty soon.

Opie,
this is ur thread, so, its ur call.
I can invest some time if u cannot.(i think the clean up would take about an hour or 2 to do it properly)
I dont mind helping the community, but it is your thread, u have right of first refusal.

Stinky, Thanks:thumbsup:

[stinkyattic]

I can clean up the thread but information in deleted posts would be lost. So if one of you wants to go through and do a cut-n-paste of the relevant stuff, that would be good.

[fredfarts]

hey Fred.
how do u control the power coming out of that airless gun?
from my experience, usually u reqr at least 1000 psi to atomize properly. IMO this will created a powerful/forceful mist that can certainly knock those lil guys over in about a second.
additionally, your overspray must be going everywhere and creating a high moisture level in the air of the area which would in turn cause the mist to adhere to anything within a 5-10 ft radius. This would include, but not limited to, your electrical equipment. I would also assume u are getting moisture droplets forming on all surrounding walls. with that i would worry about things like promoting mold/mildew.

moisture plus electricity is a lousy combination in my book.

as u can tell, i am very familiar with this type of equipment.

any further info u can supply would be helpful, and thanks for playing.:D

Its really not a problem, It comes out very fine mist. If your getting that much over spray you must reduce your pressure. I dont find the over spray a problem. These rooms were built to grow in. all the outlets are up high. I also have dehumidifiers in the rooms so while the humidity goes up when I spray its brought back under control quickly

[fredfarts]

Here is a study explaining the befifits of a folier feed with music just before lights on.

Carlson spent many hours in the University of Minnesota library, studying plant physiology. Struck by the idea that certain sound frequencies might help a plant breathe better and absorb more nutrients, he experimented with various frequencies until, with the help of an audio engineer, he found one range that was consonant with the early morning bird chirping that helps plants open wider their stomata, or mouth-like pores. On every leaf there are thousands of such small openings. Each stoma--less that 1/1000 of inch across--allows oxygen and water to pass out of the leaf, or transpire, while other gases, notably carbon dioxide, move in to be transformed by photosynthesis into sugars. During dry conditions, the stomata close to prevent a wilting plant from drying out completely.
Photomicrographs show plant stomata opening wider to Carlson's frequencies, while a Philips 505 Scanning Electron Microscope shows substantially higher stomata density on a leaf treated with Sonic Bloom; additionally, the individual stomata are more developed and better defined.



As stomata normally imbibe the morning dew, sucking up nutrients in the form of free flowing trace elements, why not, thought Carlson, develop a special organic spray to apply to the leaves along with the sound that induces stomata to open. Even in poor soil, Carlson reasoned, plants could be well nourished with a foliar spray containing the right combination of elements. To develop such an effective nutrient solution took Carlson 15 years of trial and error, experimenting in labs throughout the country, funded by a caring "angel." Carlson needed to find not only what elements serve to make a plant flourish; he needed to find their proper balance. Just the right amount of Nitrogen, Potassium, and Phosphorus is needed, but not the overdose recommended by the chemical companies that swamp the plant to the exclusion of trace elements vital to its health. Too much of any one element can distort or even kill a plant.
To find the proper balance required endless testing with radioactive isotopes and Geiger counters to trace the elements' translocation from leaves to stems to peak to roots. Among the first natural substances used was Gibberilic acid, naturally derived from rice roots, needed by every living plant. Eventually Carlson included sixty-four trace elements derived from natural plant products and from seaweed; he also added chelated amino-acids and growth stimulants, altering the surface tension of the water base to make it more easily absorbed.

[Rock.Steady]

ok, these sprouts r roughly 2 weeks old.
2 weeks ago they broke soil n were in solo cups.
1 week ago they moved to their permanent home.

1 week ago, they also got their first shower of LL.

they are under 1 each 26/100w blue spec.cfl's approx 3-6 inches away

about 3-4 days ago i gave them water only shower as i had growing concerns about the twisting leaves.

as u can see, they are moving along, but it appears the damage is permanent.
let this serve as a warning to the strength of Liq. Lite.

IMO, this should only be used after the 2nd solid week of veg.

so, lets do the math.:cool:
assuming a 6-8 week veg, you could apply between 12 to 25 times in a plants veg cycle alone.

we'll say 1 tbsp/15ml per application on a 'group'?
so, what is that? 180-325 ml roughly per grow of "X" number of plants???

and maybe 150-200 ml in veg?

i dunno, i just blazed, i think thats rite.

now, of course the next question would be is it needed that often?

your mileage may vary:smokin:

[Opie Yutts]

OK everybody. I don't have a lot of time right now, but I do have a raging headache. I just kinda skimmed the past few posts, and yes I will write up something less garbled as soon as I can. Thanks everybody for stopping by.

[Opie Yutts]

And stinky, I wasn't blaming you for anything. I completely understand.

[Rock.Steady]

ok, i am returning to add to this thread and the continuing discovery of Liquid Light.

there have been some strange occurances, which i am going to attribute to a combination of factors, one of which, i believe is the inherent strength of LL.

at first, i wasnt sure, but i am now fairly sure that I have a bleaching effect that was caused by LL, BUT only on one strain.

please observe these pics.

there are a total 4 plants in the veg bunker who have all shared the same exact age and conditions- soil, water, lite, air, nutes, LL.
3 blue russians
1 blueberry-or-mango kush




wait, i have more pics and details, i will need 2 or 3 posts.......

[Rock.Steady]

to continue,,,

age end of week 4 veg

i started LL back in week 2 and early 3.
1 BR had a slight bleaching late week 3.

the BB-or-MngK has no bleaching, which i find odd, unless its some hearty trait of the strain?

i used the LL again early this week, and now all the new-young sprouts are bleached this bright green color.

they have plenty of strength and texture, but this flourescent color.:wtf:

now, there is one other weird possibility.
i may have had it mixed n sitting too long???


ok, one more post, 2 group shots n a few more comments,......

[Rock.Steady]

ok, a few last thoughts n observations.

the first time the bleaching occured, it did actually seem to 'heal' and green-up again mostly, after the bleaching, which i understand doesnt usually happen< we'll see on this.

also, its very possible that for 'sprouts' as they may be somewhat fragile when young, cannot all take the strength of this stuff.
I used it near directions-strength.
i also used the penetrator, and just regular water to thin it per instructions.

ok, discuss,,,,:pimp:

[Opie Yutts]

Don't know what to tell you. I've never heard of that happening. I suggest half strength next time, and move the lights back farther.

[Rock.Steady]

opie
im not blaming anyone for anything buddy, but
i am reporting what i am seeing.

i will keep using it because im convinced it works, but, will continue to watch the reactions.
those plants had bursts of growth when using, but also this weird phenomenon.

oh, and the lights were further away before, they been growin:thumbsup:

[Opie Yutts]

Rock, thanks for all the info and input.

If anyone's interested, I started another "cleaner" foliar feeding thread: http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-growing/149735-foliar-feeding-liquid-light-part-two-reckoning.html