Hydro Nute Problem with pics... Help Needed

[MVP]

I've been trying to figure out what type of problem I have here. The bubbler hold 4 plants (2 master kush, 1 blueberry, 1 super skunk). Two of the four plants have the same issue (one MK and the super skunk), they other 2 seem okay, maybe slight P def. Leaf pics are from MK, they are the tallest. I also have 2 MKs in dirt in same room with no problems at all. Here are some details:

-indoor
-hydroponic
-hydroton
-DWC system type
-Water is 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap
-Water pH is 5.8 (+/- .1 to .2)
-Age = 5 weeks into flower, approx 3 ft tall
-using Pure Blend Pro + Karma + Sweet
-running approx 1200 ppm
-400 HPS approx 8-12 in from plants
-Temperature = high 85, low 65
-50% Relative humidity
-11/13 light/dark cycle
-using 449 crn vortex in small 4'x2' closet 6.5' tall

I think I might be pushing them running 1200ppm at their size. Also looks like poss. nute def. Need opinions and help.

PIC 1 is front of leaf specimen

PIC 2 is back of leaf specimen

Thanks for any help I can get...


MVP

[MVP]

Here's a bigger, more detailed pic of the back of the leaf...

[Weedhound]

I'll take a couple of guesses but thats really all they are....guesses.

1. Maybe need some CalMag.
2. fert building up in the medium. I've had this issue both in hydrotn AND higromite rocks but I use a drip system so...as I said.....guess. But the nute buildup in my medium REALLY played havoc with my plants.


MVP....what kind of ppm meter do you use?

[MVP]

Hey WH, cute doggies!

I use a Hanna Primo meter, calibrate using their 1382 solution 2x month or so. I also use the Hanna pHep meter for temp and PH.

http://boards.cannabis.com/attachments/hydroponics/164376d1194298519-building-rubbermaid-hydro-bubbler-unit-cheap-effective-6802.jpg

[Weedhound]

Ok just trying to get a line on ppms....

Do your numbers go up after a few days and if so...how high? I use the Botanicare line myself and have noticed that anything over 1500 (and I'll drop my number if I see it above 1425) will over nute my plants. I use a Hanna as well so we are probably reading the same amounts.

I'm seriously wondering if you need some CalMag tho.....half and half on the water....no way to know if there is enough minerals etc in there or not. I've also read that too much of one nute/,mineral etc can lock another out.

My numbers in week 5 usually go 1/3 CalMag, 1/3 Pro Bloom and 1/3 Hydroplex....equaling about 1000 ppms. Then I added LK and Sweet for a total of 1350-ish. On my rhino grow when I tried to raise the base nutes higher I ran into troubles.

I imagine your ppm of base nutes is about...1000? That's about 300 more than I would use. Just throwing out my experiences here so don't know if ANY of this info will help or not.

[MVP]

This happened after I went to 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap since at the same time I lowered my Pure Blend Pro to keep PPM down. I'm running in the 1200 - 1300 total range, however will be doing a flush soon and then back things down to keep it in the ~ 1000 neighborhood. I think I may have a lock out happening as I am too high on the Liquid Karma/Sweet and too low on the Pure Blend Pro. I am now watching my PPMs closely when mixing nutes. Water (1/2-1/2) = 175 PPM, then add Karma/Sweet to get to ~ 400-450 PPM, then add PBP Bloom to get up to the approx 1000 target.

I'm kinda perplexed since last cycle (Black Domina / Blueberry) I didn't measure PPMs, just followed Botanicare instructions - which I now know to be too strong - and it kicked butt. I am pretty sure its a lack of base nutes and perhaps lock out that is causing issues. I'd better get it right soon as harvest is probably within the next 4 weeks.

My PH and PPM are not moving too much which is a bit abnormal. Like they are not feeding and excreting too much. What do you think?

[Weedhound]

Well I like the number on your base nutes.....I use 700 (50/50 Pro Bloom/Hydroplex)
and then 300CalMag to 1000. As I said when I tried to raise the number of the bloom nutes above that I started to have some real problems. I've heard various numbers about the LK and Sweet....the two best hydro minds I know are my hydro guy and Rhizome. Between those two guys (and the ppms) I've worked what I think works best for me with the LK and Sweet getting the optimum of each without wasting any that the plants arent going to use anyway. I go with 7ml/gallon of each...no more of either. I KNOW the number can go much higher...but imo most it is being wasted after that. AND adding useless ppms also so that's my limit with those. Put ALL those together and you are very close to my top ppm # of 1500....(i like some breathing room) with my nutes.

Its very hard to say about them not eating....do you have too many extras in your water that are just taking up space perhaps?.....and I still think you need some CalMAg. And of course different strains will do better (or worse) with the changes in ppms. My first grow (bagseed) I went WAY high with the numbers not knowing any better. The plants did TERRIFIC. The next time I tried taking the numbers that high the plants crashed (different strain) so who knows?

[MVP]

After researching my water quality and content, I decided to go back to tap water since it has decent CA and MG levels. I'll top off with RO but base nutes will be prepared with tap.

Yesterday afternoon I mixed new nutes as follows:
Tap water, 3 gallons = 315 base PPM
added 3ml Zone root conditioner, raised to 318 PPM
added 15 ml Liquid Karma, raised it to 405 PPM
added 15 ml Sweet, raised to 520 PPM
added 30 ml Pure Blend Pro Flower, raised to 925 PPM
had to add 4.5 ml Down to get PH to 5.8

Today I checked it and PH was 6.3 and PPM was 1081. Added approx 3 ml Down to get it to 5.8 PH, and left nutes at 1081 until this evening when I take further readings.

It's been approx 18 hours since the nute change, not noticeably change for better or for worse yet. I'll update again this evening.

And yes, advice is welcome if you have soem for me!

[MVP]

Got back too late and lights were out. I'll report status tomorrow.

Anyone got ideas on what happened here?

[Zcomp]

not really man but when I have problems, I make good use of foliar sprays to detect which nutes need adding. But I do grow in soil so its your call.

[Weedhound]

Yes, update when you can. Do your ppms usually go up, down or stay the same through the course of your grow?

[MVP]

I try to keep them in a range +/- 200 PPM max. From what I remember they seem to increase as the water level goes down, but I'm not absolutely certain.

Today I made up and printed a tracking sheet and attached it to a clip board in the grow room so that I can track it daily. I know I should have been doing this earlier, but I was flying well by the seat of my pants until now...

[Weedhound]

Oh I never do stuff until I run into a problem or somebody (like my hydro guy or Rhizome) tells me to....which doesn't mean I know WHY I'm doing it...

You used your reg tap water before with no issues right? If so I think it' wise to go back to that the way as you did.

Think about increasing bloom nutes over the next week....400 isn't a ton. I like 700ppm in bloom nutes.


And I WOULD consider flushing them at some point if you are not seeing an improvement. ;)

[sfcfs07]

kinda looks like nute burn, check your water temps too if they get above 72 you might have oxygen issues, bghydro sells these 24" bendy bubble wands they did wonders for my recirculating dwc

[MVP]

Hey All, I found a pretty cool link to some old Overgrow.com info on Nute Deficiencies. I think I am MG def. due to lockout from the hard water.

NUTRIENT DEFICIENCIES LINK WITH PICTURES!! (http://www.onlinepot.org/grow/diagnosingplantgrowingproblems.htm)

I am treating with epsom via foliar and water methods. I'll update in a day or two with results......

[Weedhound]

Question;

Isn't this the same water you've always used with no problems? Why would it suddenly be causing a def? Or is it NOT the water you've always used?

[MVP]

It's the same water, but I changed the nutes by building the solution by PPM rather than just the directions on the package. After that I encountered problems when I decreased my base nutes since the micro and sweet pumped up the PPM too much.

Since then I have been foliar feeding with epsom salt in RO water and flushed the res with Flora Kleen for a day. The leaves were turning up and "praying" for MG according to the pics and nute def article I posted earlier in the thread.

Now I am running the following:

3 gallons RO water + 1 gallon tap water (96 PPM)
Pure Blend Pro - Bloom, 60ml (630 PPM)
Liquid Karma 20ml (100 PPM)
Sweet 10ml (50 PPM)
--------------------------------
Total PPM = 885
PH = 5.8

I threw them into Flower on 10/1 but the nute def problem has virtually halted growth. They are nice and sugary but not all cloudy and no amber yet. I fear they are severely stunt and feel like chopping them down in frustration. I won't do that - I'm pretty level headed (most of the time) - but they are not bouncing back yet and I have others that will need this room in 2-3 weeks.....

[Weedhound]

Hmmm......MVP I must say if you using RO water, you need CalMAg. I know about foliar sprays blah blah but they are only a substitue. STRONGLY consider flushing your medium young man. I keep my plants at 50/50 CalMag and base nutes to said level...then supplements are extra...until about 3-4 weeks into flower before I drop CalMAg back to 300 and THERE IT STAYS (all RO water....but you're using 3/4 RO....) Read back through my thread about the K def in my rhinos....I am placing my bets on that.....using LESS mg for an mg def (even with sprays.....doesn't work for me....) PS....are you using a zyme product?

BUT....I hope it works for you.. ;) I'll check back. :)

PSS...PROMISE me you will AT LEAST run a flush before you dump them and then see if they improve. :thumbsup:

[Weedhound]

If my plants were six weeks into flower here is where I would be #wise

RO Water.........15ppm
CalMag....300ppm
Pro Bloom 350
Hydroplex.350 (these are both blooming nutes and together equal 700ppm)
Liquid K 7ml/gallon
Sweet 7ml/gallon

and my numbers would be about 1350 total. Your entire ppms are too low iimo.....especially for six weeks in.

[MVP]

PSS...PROMISE me you will AT LEAST run a flush before you dump them and then see if they improve. :thumbsup:

Yeah, I flushed them on 11/23 by pumping Flora Kleen over the media and running it in the bubbler for 24 hours. Also I am foliar feeding only as a supplement to get more MG to the plants.

I will read your K def report in the Rhino thread and see what I can take away from that situation.

I'm gonna take cuts later today from a MK mom and I'll have my Mom take pics so you can get the visual on cloning. Gotta run to the hydro store, I'll be back in a while. Hmm, Cal-Mag...

Anyhow, thanks for the input... I was running ~ 1300 -1400 in the flower room before the nute def hit me. I then scaled it back to figure out WTF was happening but willl be back up to that range soon.

Zyme? Help me understand here - is that the LIquid Karma?

[Weedhound]

Cannazym - 10L | Liquid Plant Nutrients (http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=NLCZ10&eq=&Tp=)

this is the one I use but I think rhizome sort of figures they are all the same...sensizyem etc

You were a good man to flush your medium, good work there. I think all you need to do....is trade in that last gallon of tap water for RO and add some CalMag and a zyme product to help with the dead roots. I feel the Calmag is NECESSARY (and would like to see all RO water so we know EXACTLY whats going in your rez) and the zyme is always a good idea.....but not so necessary. :)

[Weedhound]

The zyme products help break down dead root tissue but they also REALLY help to keep your ph stable as well. There are several around......;)

[PharmaCan]

Wow - This is such an informative conversation you two or having.

Right now I'm using Latewood's formula (http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-growing/112898-basic-advice-additives-start-little-grow-big.html) with pretty good success. (I dunno for sure - I'm in week eight of flower and starting to get a lot of yellowing, so I hope it's natural for this point in a 10 week strain. ...but that's beside the point.)

I notice that there's no mention of Micro anywhere in the formula you are discussing/using. There isn't much N in CM+, so what are you doing for N and all the trace stuff you get in Micro?

I've never used a zyme product on these plants. They're in coco and are watered until run-off twice per day. With roughly three weeks left, would a zyme product be of benefit? Would it help to flush with it? Could I flush with H2O2 instead and, if so, how much H2O2 does one use?

PC :smokin:

[MVP]

I am using Liquid Karma for my Micro and Zone by Dutch Masters for my root conditioner... is that a zyme?

[Weedhound]

I'm pretty sure Micro is made by GH.....PC can you post a link to the product and I can check and see.... I do know Latewood's formula is for 3 part GH nutes, not the Botanicare which is pretty much an all in one product (except for your Calcium, Magnesium, etc which is all in your Cal Mag.....and all your cool trace minerals too) That's why I'm strongly suspecting that with RO water if MVP uses CalMAg his problems will disappear (hint hint :D)

The two minds I try to follow the most are my hydro guy and Rhizome. Interestingly, they have opposite views on the use of CalMAg during bloom. My hydro guy likes CM for the entire grow (which is the way I do it and always have) and Rhizome.....reading from the MAKERS of the product (Botanicare) says that CalMAg should be dropped completely from your plants menu during late flowering (I have never done this.)
As a compromise I ended up using a higher amount of CalMAg than Botanicare says and not as much as my hydro guy recommends BUT I still use it ALL THE WAY through my grow until flush time.

MVP I'm not familiar with the DutchMaster root conditioner. Do you have a link I can look at?

[Weedhound]

One last thing PC.....too much nitrogen can inhibit flowering I am told....by a very good mind....Stinky. I think that's why Botanicare recommends no CalMAg later on in blooming. But Stink agrees there is not "too much" N in CalMag to cause a problem in flowering and I know my hydro guy agrees.

[PharmaCan]

Micro is part of a three-part nute. I use AN, but I think GH is almost the same. Anyhooo - here's some NPK numbers:

Grow - 2-1-6
Micro - 5-0-1
Bloom - 0-5-4

During veg you use equal parts of all three. During flower you drop the Grow completely. and use 2/1 - Bloom/Micro. Then I supplement with LK, CM+, Sweet & Molasses. I'm also adding Overdrive (1-3-4) for the next two weeks, then just Sweet & Molasses for the final week's flush.

I kept my base nutes (Micro & Bloom) constant and pushed up my supplements up until I got just a tad of tip burn then backed off on the supplements. I need to get a new ppm meter, but that's going to have to wait for awhile, so I'm just kinda flying by the seat of my pants here. Fortunately, with the coco, I mix a new batch of nutes every other day so it is easy to respond/adjust to what the plants seem to need.

..and now I'll shut up and quit jacking MVP's thread. :D

PC :smokin:

[Weedhound]

Ahhhh there is the confusion.

Pure Blend Pro Grow - gallon | (http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=NOPBPGG)

The Botanicare line is made as a one part or stand alone set of grow nutes....then in flowering you switch to the bloom one and they are complete for each part of your grow. The only thing missing in these "stand alone" nutes is the Calcium, magnesium, iron and trace minerals.....which are found in their third product Cal Mag.....made.....SPECIFICALLY for use with RO or distilled water....WHICH....oddly enough MVP is using mostly and even more oddly he seems to have a magnesium def.....go figure. :wtf:

So its a different brand and type of nutes PC. I love Botancare....just measuring one thing....no worries....and mostly organic....:thumbsup:

I shall now return this thread to its proper owner. :D

[PharmaCan]

M.V.P. - You might as well go get some CalMag - she's not going to give you a moment's peace until you do. :D

PC :smokin:

[Weedhound]

Heh heh......Allow the truth to be SHOUTED from the rooftops.....:D

[MVP]

M.V.P. - You might as well go get some CalMag - she's not going to give you a moment's peace until you do. :D

PC :smokin:

Yeah, next trip to the store will result in me buying CalMag. I'm still fighting this nute def thing and its pissing me off... :wtf:

[MVP]

Read back through my thread about the K def in my rhinos....I am placing my bets on that.....


WH, I read this part, but do you have any pics of the K def... I might have MG and K def here and I need pics to tell WTF I am gonna do next...

AAAARRRRRGGGHHH!!!!!

[Weedhound]

Well my k def was actually a result of fert buildup in the medium.....locking out the K because believe me I had a TON of K in my nute solution. But since you have said that you have done a flush I am less inclined to think that in your situtation now.....espically after discovering you are actually doing the opposite treatment we talked about.

I think you using 3/4 RO water has caused an MG def amongst other shortages and I'm pretty sure that is your problem. That's why I suggested going back to your regular tap water.....and was rather surprised when you mentioned that you were now using even MORE RO water.....but still no CalMag instead of going back to your tap water. You may have squeezed by with enough calcium and mag etc in your tap water.....but you certainly aren't going to get any in your RO water so I'm sort of wondering why you didn't start CalMag when you went to RO water....it's pretty standard to do so and most people who use RO and DONT use CalMAg WILL run into problems.

[MVP]

I didn't add CalMag when supplementing the tap with RO since I thought it would have sufficient levels in my tap water to supply them both. Now I have to head to the hydro shop and need to pick up something for the K def as well as CalMag (see PC, I'm finally bowing down to the Hound!).

What product did you use to clear up the K def? (I have symptoms of both MG and K issues) The store opens in 10 minutes so if you can let me know soon it will help me out...

[Weedhound]

i'm not sure you have a k def.....just buy the CalMag and we will work it out when you get back......I'd buy it for you and pour it in your rez myself if I were there.....:D

[Weedhound]

I think its a calcium def.....not k.....they look similar....saw a very interesting photo the other day....I could have sworn it was a k def but it turned out to be calcium.....got me thinking.. ...i'll see if I can find the photo.....

[Weedhound]

Revised: The Complete Guide To Sick Plants,pH and Pest Troubles - PlanetGanja.com (http://www.planetganja.com/highsociety/showthread.php?t=8778) If you go down to his photo under calcium def....it looks EXTREMELY close to a potassium def as well.

[Weedhound]

CalMag 300ppm
PBP......600
LK.......100
Sweet..100

anything else that is in the water ignore....ppms from your tap or numbers added by your zyme product do not count.

this is the schedule I would run or you may want to try the CalMAg at 200.....I personally would go to 300ppm (RO water) and watch the plants carefully but you can try 200 and see if they perk up a little and if they do....go higher.

You are using the EXACT same products I am using so I'm pretty sure (unless there is some factor going on I don't know about) that your problem is def related to the lack of CalMag. There is only one way to know for sure of course.....add it and see. ;)

[MVP]

Here are the pics of the Master Kush (L) and Super Skunk (R).

They started out looking very much like this picture (http://www.planetganja.com/highsociety/attachment.php?attachmentid=21337), then got progressively worse...

[Weedhound]

Ps....the photos make me think even more of Calcium def vs k def.....i'll photo one of my k def leaves....yours doesn't really look the same.

[Weedhound]

MVP sorry to hog up your thread...this is the lastt time i'll stick another one liner post here (ha ha) but here's a photo of my k def in my plants......has a very...unique spotted look to it....and on the back of the left the yellow spots are BURNED through the plant.

http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-problems/130810-growheads-please-help-burn-mites.html

[whatsthatsmell]

your reverse osmosis water has all the cal/mag removed, you need to add that back into the res with calmag+ or another similar product. You may have some other minor def working there, but with adding the calmag you should knock out alot of that stuff. While your at the store, i would also look at a micro nute just to be on the safe side (it wont hurt to have it handy if you need it).

From what i can see in your photo's your missing Cal for certain. I personally try and solve one problem at a time, that allows me to dial into the problem more accurately. Just my opinion, but i am sure there will be another post coming shortly.....

[MVP]

OK, thanks for digging up a photo. BTW hydro store # 1 is not open so I have to wait til noon to go to store #2. In the meanwhile I am building a small recirculating DWC for my Black Dominas that are due out of veg in a couple of weeks. Adding shelves to the Veg closet too.

Makes me wonder when I get my new job how the heck I will find time to do all of this!

[stinkyattic]

Praying for Mg is a myth. Mg def presents as a regular striping between veins.
Looks like you've got potassium locked out somehow.
I'd go back to the basics, foliar feed with a weak solution of the GH micro to keep it from getting worse, lay off the Epsom salts, be certain that you've got calmag or that your tap water is providing sufficient micros, monitor pH carefully... you know the drill.
All this multiple-nute hydro chatter makes my small brain hurt.
Honestly I'd lay off the liquid karma and sweet until you know what's going on. But that's my personal opinion.

In my own hydro dabblings and splashings, I go by the 'less is more' approach to supplements- I use half as much as the rec. dose, and only topmax and molasses. I figure, a living plant that survives to harvest yields more by definition than one I've killed with supplement overdose... Weedhound may remember my misadventures with 'gravity' this summer... hahahaha what a fucking MESS.

[Weedhound]

To me it depends what the suppliment is....I love LK and will add some to sick plants regularly....but not at full strenth as Stinky says....(Stinky always says cool stuff :)) and A TOUCH of sweet doesn't hurt imo (a touch is NOT 15/mlgallon) but I could drop the sweet easily in a sick plant and not be upset either. 100ppms of LK works out to about 3-4 mls per gallon.

PS....my bottle of gravity still sits unused.....staring at me....chuckling softly......waiting.....:eek:

[MVP]

Looks like you've got potassium locked out somehow. I'd go back to the basics, foliar feed with a weak solution of the GH micro to keep it from getting worse.....

Not using any chemical ferts, only organics, primarily Botanicare stuff. Any rec's instead of the GH stuff (or is it not synthetic?...) I do have a jug of Earth Juice here for the dirt girls but that stuff causes a bit of a smell...

[MVP]

To me it depends what the suppliment is....I love LK and will add some to sick plants regularly....but not at full strenth as Stinky says....(Stinky always says cool stuff :)) and A TOUCH of sweet doesn't hurt imo (a touch is NOT 15/mlgallon) but I could drop the sweet easily in a sick plant and not be upset either. 100ppms of LK works out to about 3-4 mls per gallon.

Referring back to Mr. Clipboard, last nute change I added 2.5ml of Sweet and 5ml of LK per gallon of water. That resulted in Sweet = 50 PPM and LK = 100 PPM.

*Jingle, jingle* - that's my car keys as I get ready to head out and fetch the CALMAG :thumbsup:

[Weedhound]

YOU GO MVP!! Way to keep track of shit!!! i'm impressed.....don't let the dog hang it's head out the window in the car.....he could poke out an eye.....:D:D

[stinkyattic]

Shoot. You're one of those dirty hippies with the pure-organic grows! :D
I haven't the foggiest how else to add a lot of micro nutes really effectively and remain fully organic.
Troubleshooting an organic grow is HARD as you've seen. I hate to say it but this is enough of an emergency to go grab a bottle of GH micro or algoflash and swallow your organic pride for a moment anyway... or have a friend do it if you simply can't bear to spray the evil chemicals yourself... hahaha....

WH, lol @ Gravity chuckling... mine is doing the same thing... mocking me from next to the kitchen sink... saying 'you aren't happy wiht me as a fertilizer? try me as a marinade!!! I'm kelp-ily delicious!":D

[Weedhound]

Have a friend do it....ha ha .....pretty sly....like a your kid getting a shot or something.....:D

[MVP]

OK, back from the store and errands... need info to mix up this brew..... so how many ml/gal of CalMag should add to the nutes in your opinion? I have the following from the new nutes I put in a day and a half ago:

3 gallons RO water + 1 gallon tap water (96 PPM)
Pure Blend Pro - Bloom, 60ml (630 PPM)
Liquid Karma 20ml (100 PPM)
Sweet 10ml (50 PPM)
--------------------------------
Total PPM = 885
PH = 5.8

I checked them a minute ago - the PPM was 920 and PH was between 5.7 - 5.8

[Weedhound]

Well not sure how long you've been without the necessary minerals etc...so lets start with 200ppm....especially since you have a nudge of tap water on board.....I would simply add it and watch things....see how they do.

I REALLY hope this solves your probs MVP......otherwise.....i never heard of you.. :D (j/k!)

[MVP]

Shoot. You're one of those dirty hippies with the pure-organic grows! :D
I haven't the foggiest how else to add a lot of micro nutes really effectively and remain fully organic.
Troubleshooting an organic grow is HARD as you've seen. I hate to say it but this is enough of an emergency to go grab a bottle of GH micro or algoflash and swallow your organic pride for a moment anyway... or have a friend do it if you simply can't bear to spray the evil chemicals yourself... hahaha....


Frankly I prefer to be called a California Hydro Hippie. And I found the organic Micro at the Hydro Hippie market... read on amiga....


Well not sure how long you've been without the necessary minerals etc...so lets start with 200ppm....especially since you have a nudge of tap water on board.....I would simply add it and watch things....see how they do.

I REALLY hope this solves your probs MVP......otherwise.....i never heard of you.. :D (j/k!)

Well, I started winging it an hour ago since I was under a time pressure with friends coming over any minute now: I added CalMag and Earth Juice (organic!) Micro to bring total PPM to 1115. I have to report that 95 Percent of the PPM bump was due to the CalMag.

Wish me well, I gotta say a prayer and hope for the best! :pimp:

[MVP]

Oh yeah, I applied the organic Micro as a topical to the foliage too......

[rhizome]

That the EJ Micro-blast? Good stuff, if it is.

[Weedhound]

That sounds good to me except the Micro blast thing which I have no clue. Update in am MVP....now I'm all excited about it.

Hi Rhizome...:)

[MVP]

That the EJ Micro-blast? Good stuff, if it is.

Yes it is the EJ Micro Blast. Local hydro guy recommends it for those of us Hippies that are stubbornly determined to grow organic hydroponics. Thanks for stopping by, I can use all the eyes and minds that can help figure out this mess...

[MVP]

Morning Update:
Checked the numbers
- 1060 PPM (was 1115 last night)
- 5.7 PH (same as last night)

Foliar fed the girls with 1/2 strength EJ Micro Blast
Temps 67 F at canopy, 67 F solution
Exhaust fan dialed back to low
Some leaves on MKs look yellow with slight necrosis.. but not worse
Leaves on Super Spunk seem to be slowly regaining green color
Smells nice in there.... thank goodness

Afternoon/Evening Update to follow

[Weedhound]

oops...you just updated....n/m

[Weedhound]

Sounds like they are snarfing down the CalMag......which way do your numbers usually go....do they rise or go down for a trend?

[MVP]

I have not made good notes until a week and a half ago when luck ran out and flying by the seat of my pant began to suck. Still getting used to Mr. Clipboard, but he gardens with me each morning and evening when checking numbers.

I want to say that the PPM increased as water consumption increased and the water level fell. But in the last 10 days PPM has bumped up and down by no more than maybe 100 over a 24 hour period.

Water consuption has been light during the same time frame.

[Weedhound]

You mentioned the scent....would you say that is better today? If they really eat those numbers down are you prepared to change entire res to restore nute balance? Just something to think about.

[MVP]

Very slightly better today. I run a large carbon filter but I did notice a slight improvement. Changing nutes is no problem if the numbers fall - I have 10 gal of RO, PBP Bloom, LK, Sweet, EJ Micro, and of course CalMag on hand - so THAT is a problem I would LOVE to have....

I just pumped them up to 1115 yesterday afternoon from 920 in the morning. All fresh nutes a couple of days ago, but if the numbers fall I'll change them gladly. What do ya think my taget number should be?

[Weedhound]

Well here is where I'm not sure about things and am doing some guessing. I have a feeling that they are mostly sucking down CalMag.....you mentioned before that they did not appear to be eating much.....obviously now they are. You can go two ways with this....

I would say when your number gets down below 1000 you can either add 100ppm CalMag or change things over to a whole new rez solution.

If you are going to change your rez.....If it is possible to use ALL RO water here....I would if I were you. If that were the case I would use RO water and 300ppm CalMag in addition to whatever you are running...(about 1200 ppm with supplements) .if you use tap water.....if you use 1 gal tap water I'd go with 250 ppm and put your number at about 1100.

Other option would be to just add more CalMag. This is much less precise however....because we are only assuming the plant is eating the Cal MAg....we're not really sure WHAT the plant is eating....capice? It's a pretty safe guess I think.....but not positive so that route is a litte more chancy imo because you could possibly end up putting in too much. Between your bloom nutes and your CalMag....I'd like to see 1000ppms.....700 base nutes and 300 CalMag (or tap....but I'd like to dump your tap stuff completely) and then the LK and Sweet numbers after that....and I'd stay under 1200. ;)

[MVP]

I've pretty much settled into the idea of dumping tap and going completely with RO. I even pickep up a second 5-gal RO bottle and filled 'er up. I'll probably go with a quick add of CalMag if I see a big drop tonight. Otherwise the plan is all fresh nutes on Friday morning as I am heading out for Vegas for Fri-Sat-(maybe)Sunday. I'll have my GF check in on the girls and foliar feed if they still appear needy that way.

[Weedhound]

That sounds pretty much exactly what I would do....add 100ppm if needed then change over next time.....pretty safe bet that's what they want this time around. After that...who knows?

Sounds like you are getting pretty dialed in there....going with all RO water is an excellent idea....you know EXACTLY what is going into your rez....not a problem until you have an issue. Believe me I find that one out the hard way myself. ;)

Our well water was about 170 ppms but i could NOT control the ph with it. Yours has 300ppms....kind of scary because what IS all that in there?

[MVP]

Our well water was about 170 ppms but i could NOT control the ph with it. Yours has 300ppms....kind of scary because what IS all that in there?

I have figured out whatever IS in there- it is the REASON to go to RO water - for predictability and consistency...

[Weedhound]

yes exactly....! I think alot of us hydro geeks are also control freaks.....the more control I have over my plants the better I like it. :)

[MVP]

Final number from this evening:

PPM rose a smidge from 1060 to 1075
PH dropped from 5.7 to 5.5

I wanna believe that their leaves look like they are slowly recovering, but I'm not sure yet. Guess I'm being hopeful.

On a related note (kinda) I remodeled my mum area and my transition bubbler where I move my clones after they exit the humidity dome. Still got some work to finish but making progress.

So when do ya think I should kick the PPMs up to the ~1300 range? I wanna get them going so they can finish in time to keep my Dominas from starting flower late...

[klondike_bar]

soo many words and not enough pictures.... post some pics and we can better understand, as wel as drool over another persons plants:D

[Weedhound]

You are pretty much where you want to be imo.....Next res change go with RO water
and I'd do....

CalMAg 300.....i would leave this number all the way through your grow

PB Bloom 600 (top out at 700ppm)
LK Same as whatever you are using (top out at 7ml/gal)
Sweet....same as whatever you are using (same as LK) and then if no problems.....go to the max. But if you encounter the same issue (big drop in numbers...) I probably wouldn't RAISE nutes....just change res more often to keep a balance.

You are pretty much looking at what I flower my plants with....the only change I make is increase the bloom nutes by about 100ppm when I switch over the to bloom booster.....ends up at 700... ending with about 1350 ish....I don't really go above that.

How high are you thinking you want to go cause after that you are on your own....;)

If you can change your rez to fresh stuff tomorrow I would....clean slate to watch plants from if possible and if trends continue just make the CalMAg part of your regular nutes. I think this is a good idea to do very soon because they seem to have stopped sucking everything down. What if they stopped sucking things down because they ran out of something?? ....We don't really know and we don't want that which is why I suggest a fresh start tomorrow. If you get the same trend tomorrow (big drop right away then nothing)...I'd probably change the rez again until I got an even trend going. Make sense?

MVP...you can't rush these girls.....they will need time to recover. All you can do here is play defense and watch them carefully. They will take some extra time and I don't think there is any way around that. I think if you try to push too much too fast you will burn them.....not worth that worry after all this work you've done.

Your turn to wait and see....:D ;)

[Weedhound]

All right MVP......what's going on over there....???? :wtf: Update please. ;)

[MVP]

Another day.... am I making progress? I'm not sure. :wtf:

PPM rose a smidge from 1075 to 1090
PH rose from 5.5 to 5.7

I'm an eternal optimist but I can't decipher what the numbers mean since I cannot seem to find a pattern. The plan is to do a res change with new nutes either tonight or tomorrow early morning before I get out of town for a few days.

Not to worry I have a babysitter for the girls I am training for when I am gone a few days. ;)

[Weedhound]

MVP I'm not sure you can find a pattern until you repeat the same process a few times....thats why I suggested fresh nutes for today. So we could create the right enviroment to be able to track things accurately. How do the plants LOOK? That's more important to me than the numbers. And whats the ph?

[MVP]

Here are some pics that are shot with the HPS on so they don't show too well....

I'm wondering why the leaves on the main colas are turning up... on a different site it said they are "praying for MG", but stinky says that is a myth. Any ideas?

[MVP]

Plants look slightly better (color-wise) but are not exhibiting new growth yet.

PH is 5.7, up from 5.5 last night

[Weedhound]

I'm sorry MVP...i looked at the photos but I'm afraid I'm not quite sure what you mean with the colas turned up. I didn't see anythig weird but.....lighting ....etc....could you explain a little better for me?

[Weedhound]

are you talking about the leaf edges curled up? You know....I've just heard TWICE recently about a low/abnormal ph causing the leaf edges to curl up.....although Stinky wisely thought heat first.....check both.....calibrate your meter if you haven't lately

[MVP]

I'm guessing its probably heat. When we have a 80 degree day here like we did 2 weeks ago, my temp climb to 85 F at the canopy, sometimes a few degrees more. I have been calibrating my pHep about 2x month to be on the safe side.


So Hound, how is Kushette? Does she have her own thread yet?

[Weedhound]

She's doing really well. :thumbsup: I've bought a bunch of supplies to get ready for cloning...but I won't hog your thread here with that stuff. I am going to update later today on everyone because I got some brand new hydro toys to play with too. :)

[MVP]

Excellent! :D I am going to update the Cloning thread and was thinking about adding these pics of my newly remodeled Mum/Clone closet.... what do you think?

[Weedhound]

Hey your clones look GREAT!!...at least from here they do. Yes post those on the cloning thread and how about a few close-ups?

[MVP]

I'll try to get some up before Vegas tomorrow....... :jointsmile:

[Weedhound]

Going to Las Vegas??...oh you poor thing you...:D

[MVP]

Changed res nutes to the following:

4 gal RO water (no tap)
+ 20 ml Earth Juice Micro Blast (organic) = 100 PPM
+ 4 ml Zone Root Cond = 104 PPM
+ 25 ml CalMag = 414 PPM
+ 75 ml PBP Bloom = 1275 PPM
+ 10ml Liquid Karma = 1330 PPM

PH = 5.8
Nute Temp = 66 F

My buddy is waiting impatiently as I promised we would go 45 min ago..... I'll check back after dinner time.

[Weedhound]

Ooooo thats making ME hungry.....:D :thumbsup:

[the image reaper]

I have always been told that when the leaves 'pray' up like that, they are transpiring excess moisture, maybe need the solution less often ... I dropped my pumps back a bit when my plants were doing that, seemed to help a lot, and got my humidity down, too :smokin:

[Weedhound]

I personally think in this case its a def of some kind....I think you are looking at several there.....so perhaps even some sort of reaction from several problems at once? They seem much more intermixed in hydro than in soil. For example...nuteburn raises your ph ....now you have 2 problems....and so on. There is also the issue of ratios and balance to think about imo....too much/too little of this nute/mineral etc can lock out another nute/mineral. So I find the ratios MORE important than the numbers themselves.

My thought here is lack of CalMag. But if that were not the issue.....my next thought would be a ph lockout problem ......especially since again we are seeing SEVERAL defs at once....often a good indicater of ph problems if you are positive certain nutes are available to the plant. In this case...I just don't think they were available in sufficient amounts here rather than ph causing the problem.

[MVP]

It's 720pm right now and I went in there (night time) with my green flashlight; here is what I found happened in the last 5 hours:

1160 PPM
5.9 PH

Gotta run, the movie just started!

[Weedhound]

:thumbsup: Keep it up. Hungry mommas!!! :) the more often you can change rez as long as that kind of thing is happening I would daily until you get something steady going. Higher numbers don't necessarily mean the plant doesn't need anything....maybe it means it's not available to the plant or perhaps not in the right ratio....;)

PS....I know you are going out of town so just do the best you (or your babysitter can)

Good luck. :)

[MVP]

PPM = 1147
PH = 6.0

Time before I leave to Vegas = 2.5 hours..... better get busy!

Hmmm, what to do? Add Micro and Calmag to res and watch for an hour or two? Or change entire res now and check in 2 hours?

Decisions, decisions...

[MVP]

Added 10ml CalMag to approx 5 gal in res:

1270 PPM
5.9 PH

Checking it at 11am prior to roadtrip

[Weedhound]

How are they looking and smelling MVP? Do you see any improvement?

[MVP]

Final update before I hit the road:

PPM = 1240
PH = 5.9

Leaves are slowly regaining green as they were very pale and yellow. Smell is good - everytime I put my hand in there to check PH and PPM my sleeve and hands come out stinky. I like that part a lot. :thumbsup:

I'll be back online with updates on Sunday or Monday depending on how the cards fall in Vegas. I think the girls have turned the corner and will be looking better then.

MVP :jointsmile:

[Weedhound]

Glad to hear......now go win a bunch of money and we'll party...:D

[MVP]

Well, got back a few hours ago and here are the numbers:

PPM = 1250
PH = 5.0

Hmmm, why in the world would the pH drop so much and the PPM barely move at all?

Not looking like any change in leaf color as I was expecting. Was hoping that green will replace the pale yellow but nothing yet :mad: I am running out of patience....

[MVP]

No nute changes while I was gone, but just changed solution:
RO water only
6 ml/gal of EJ Micro
1 ml/gal of Zone root cond.
7 ml/gal of CalMag
3 ml/gal of Liquid Karma
20 ml/gal of PBP Bloom
---------------------------
PPM = 1260
PH = 5.8

[Weedhound]

Hmmm.....doesn't sound like you came home with a huge win either. May I take a guess that the rez hasn't been changed since you left? I realize you were gone....

and if it hasn't been changed.....got any idea why they really wouldn't be very improved?

[Weedhound]

Beat me to it. I bet you will go back to seeing exactly what you did before. Big drop, then nothing and then again when you change the rez or add CalMag. These gals have been deficient for awhile.....that ain't going to get fixed overnight.

since you have your calmag on board now....why not dump them and start your next set so you dont' get behind.

Ps.....I've heard that a ph lowers when roots begin dying off.

[MVP]

Hey WH, you're right.... no big wins in Vegas, but no big losses either. ;) I think I'm gonna try and nurse them back to life until the Dominas are done vegging, then pull the plug on these girls. Maybe I can learn something from the series of events here and keep out of trouble in the future... I do suspect a PH issue and nute def but cannot pinpoint it exactly.....

[Weedhound]

Are your dominas in hydro?

[MVP]

Yeah I have 2 of the Dominas, each vegging in their own self contained DWC bubbler. They are short (approx 18 in tall), bushy, and have been FIM'ed and/or topped (one is a bit further ahead of the other).

I also have some MK clones under fluor in a 'transition' 6-pack DWC hydro growing roots that are due to veg sometime soon. My total system is pretty much a closet with a Mother room, the Transition Room, a cloning shelf (just big enough for the tray/dome and fluor light), and a 4'x2' flower room that is 7' tall. For now I am vegging in a HydroHut Mini that is 3'x3'x 6.5 tall.

[Weedhound]

And none of these plants are showing problems? What are you doing differently with these MK's?

[MVP]

Oooops, I changed nutes last night but forgot to plug in my air pump :( so virtually nothing changed since then:

PPM = 1255
PH = 5.8
res temp = 58 F

[Weedhound]

oops.....

Dude you're starting to freak me out with all those avatars...:wtf:

[MVP]

And none of these plants are showing problems? What are you doing differently with these MK's?

Right now they are in veg under a 2 ft fluorescent light with (2) 20 watt 5000k bulbs. They are running at a mild nute sol of PBP Grow, LK, EJ Micro. These babes had been neglected while trying to fix the ongoing nute def with the flowers, but have bounced back pretty well.

The vegging Dominas are running PBP Grow, LK, Sweet @ approx 1300 PPM. I have been trying to build a recirc DWC like crispi's but the damn bucket grommets keep leaking, so I have had to keep them in self contained buckets. When I flip them to Flower I am gonna have to SCROG them on they'll come crashing down again cuz these are way bushier and better growing that the treetop that fell over a few months ago. Problem is that checking PH/PPM and changing nutes is next to impossible without a recirc/res system....

Anyhow I feel like I ought to start a Domina log rather than stray too far off topic here.

[MVP]

oops.....

Dude you're starting to freak me out with all those avatars...:wtf:

Sorry about that, I should do the AV stuff late night so it doesn't make people trip... I think I'll stay with the Cowbell for a while!

[Weedhound]

What kind of water are you using for your hydro plants (except the MK.s)

[MVP]

You all have convinced me to go all RO and CalMag which I started last week, so now all of my grows are RO. I am due to change nutes on the Dominas tonight and they are the last of the girls to go to 100 percent RO. Prior they were 50/50 or 75/25 RO/Tap as I eased into the new RO man that I have become.....

[Weedhound]

Well if they are on regular water and no issues....and your Mk's ARENT on regular water and are having issues it HAS to be that you need CalMag. Nothing else makes any sense here. ....:(

[MVP]

Come to think of it, the only other thing I did with the MK/SS/BB that show nute def is I mixed the nutes differently when I started measuring PPMs and it resulted in a lower level of base nutes.

[Weedhound]

Its your CalMag.....i'd bet money. I think they will suck up as much as they can...then stop when they run out and wait for you to add more. I'm just afraid adding too much at once will throw off the nute balance and you'll be screwed. What day are you at in flowering with the Mk's again?

[MVP]

I would not bet against the CalMag at this point. I am gonna do the daily CalMag add thing - adding it to the nutes as needed to keep the PPM at approx 1300. I started them into flower on 10/1 and they have not done much of anything in the last 2 weeks of the nute def. I will tell you that they ARE smelling much more pungent. I have to take a peek at the trichomes later today after my job interview.

[Weedhound]

Well I certainly hope that solves it for you. Took me several grows, changing mediums and a few other things before I was FINALLY able to pinpoint the fert buildup issue (which was making me CRAZY btw :mad:) ...and was quite surprised on what crazy things it made my plants do. And I DON'T mean that in a good way. :wtf:

I'm going to go on a big long rant in my thread about meters so you may want to pick through and see what I found out. ;)

[MVP]

Wh, found this on ICMag.com (http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688)and it looks pretty much like the havoc in my garden...
[attachment=o169061]
they says its a Ca def and I gotta believe it!

[Weedhound]

yes, that's the same pic that's is on Planet Ganja.....it's the same guy Stitch....I think he runs around and leaves that great guide everywhere....When I first glanced at that photo I thought K def.....but it's not .....

[MVP]

I feel a flush developing - how long it will run is still undecided...

I way in there poking around earlier and found that Ms. Skunk has a nice frosty appearance on her flowers AND some little amber triches, probably ~ 10 percent. The Blueberry is about the same and although the MKs are the hardest hit from the nute def, they show a SMIDGE of amber here and there with their mostly cloudy triches.

I also have 2 dirty old MKs in there too that were former mums, flowered about 9 days after this group and they look pretty ready showing a small amount of amber developing. Besides, I need the room for the Black Dominas that have been FIM'ed, topped, and vegged for some time now - don't ask how long, I can't remember - before Mr Clipboard... All I can tell you is that they are 18 in tall, short, squatty, and in need to flower!

Anyhoo... What the nute def did to the quality has yet to be seen, but the yield is about half or less of what I expected based on the last harvest's results... I'll be lucky to get more than 2 oz from the whole damn closet. :( But the bright side is that I still have adequate rations from the last grow to pull me thru until Spring :jointsmile: That is unless I go on a baking binge and become super generous with friends...

P.S. no amber I can see in this pic, but it was the only bloody photo that ended up in focus! Make sure you maximize it in your browser. Looks mostly cloudy though...

[Weedhound]

Mr Clipboard... :D

I don't think potency should be affected.....just yield. my rhinos were pretty potent despite all the problems I had with defs, build up etc.....my larger problem with that was that all the defs etc lowered the plants' immune system....and allowed mold to form in some small sections of the a few of the buds...:( Potency still kicked ass though. ;) :thumbsup:

[MVP]

Hey WH, I posted some PDFs of Mr Clipboard's forms in the thread by cmasfca. Not that you need them, just letting y'all know...

[MVP]

Well, they are still fighting to get better. I flushed with FloraKleen and changed nutes last night:

3 gal RO water = 12 PPM
+ 2ml/gal Zone = 12 PPM
+ 10 ml/gal EJ Microblast = 155 PPM
+ 10 ml/gal CalMag = 545 PPM
+ 16 ml/gal PBP Bloom = 1170 PPM
+ 5 ml/gal Karma = 1245 PPM
+ 5 ml/gal Sweet = 1313 PPM

I then had to add 8 ml total of Up to get PH to 5.8.

When I add the solution to the res there is always a little bit of the Flush remaining (won't drain completely no matter how I do it...) so the final PH ended up at 5.9 and final PPM at 1268.

I checked it today and the PH was at 6.5 and PPM was 1255...:wtf: makes me wonder what is going on with them. I adjusted them back to 5.8 but am perplexed and figure I'll give them another week or two and then they will get axed. By that time the Dominas will have recovered from their recent topping and will be ready for the HPS.

I suspect a PH reading problem with my Hanna pen, so I am comparing side-by-side with a PH test kit (vial/drops) and so far they are correct. It is strange that the Hanna pen sometimes takes a long time to provide a correct reading. I am about to give up on it and order a Milwaukee pen or something similar.

[Weedhound]

MVP....are they growing? Have they taken a big growth spurt or something? A rising ph can be due to higher nutrient needs in some plants....mine starts rising pretty steadily from about week 4 on. If they are eating the numbers down.....that sure doesn't sound like burn.....what do they look like?

[Weedhound]

I hear the oakton ph meters are the way to go.....best value for money, accurate, last quite a while. ;) Got that from TWO sources I trust.

[MVP]

Well, they started 12/12 light cycle on 10/1 and were due to finish in 8-9 weeks (tomorrow is 10 weeks - 70 days of flower completed). There is a little bud growth on the Skunk and BB, but MKs are about the same or very little growth. The leaves with the nute def still have yellow splotches on them and are brittle.

I am noticing the trich development is slow - just seeing hints of amber - and I feel like I might as well ride out the next couple of weeks for good measure. I will not get anywhere close to the yield I should have without the nute def, and the amber is slower to happen than I was expecting, but I will give it another 10 days or so to see if I can get what I have to finish properly.

[Weedhound]

Yes...may as well. Shame but its all done in the name of learning. I supercropped a BUNCH of my plants once and I know it cut the final yield by about 1/2.....just did too much pruning for too long and all the plants could think about was healing themselves from constantly being plucked rather than making buds. :(

[MVP]

Definitely some learning here. No doubt about that! Here's this morning's numbers:

PH 5.6
(down from 5.8)

PPM 1278
(up rom 1255)

Triches still not there yet. They are the only reason I have not chopped them down. Smell is pretty pungent in the morning since I shut the fan off at night to keep temps from falling below the 55 degrees.

[MVP]

Well, their time has come. My house is stinking too much from holding the BD's out of the vented flower room so this group has been harvested. The trichomes were mostly cloudy, between 5-10 percent amber. They stink quite a bit themselves and it took me 3 hours to harvest and manicure.

Due to the low yield and size, I built a drying contraption (DIY, McGyver style) and have them chilling in their right now. Basically I built a carbon scrubber, then inserted it into a storage tote, built a couple of screened shelves, then plugged it in and let it go...

No official weight, only a guess that I'll get somewhere between 1-2 oz. when it is dried. I'll probably use the entire harvest for baking edibles and maybe some cannabis capsules.

[Weedhound]

Those are yout MK's? Nice little drying contraption there. :thumbsup:

Ps....I'll update a little later but I got rid of Kushette....:(

[MVP]

Yeah, the MK's are on the top shelf, and the Super Skunk and Blueberry are divided 50/50 on the lower, smaller shelf.

I've got 4 little MK clones that you are welcome to visit since Kushette is no longer... and a Mom that has cuts every week or two.

I think I'll post a DIY thread on the dryer so that those interested can see how easy it was to build.

[MVP]

Well I was WRONG. Not a little wrong, but WAY WRONG. :wtf: And happy to be wrong - I should never try to guess their yield, but let's say I am pleasantly surprised by the outcome.

Final Yield:
3.0 oz of Master Kush (from 2 dirt ex-moms and 2 DWC clones)
.75 oz of Super Skunk from 1 SS clone (DWC)
.50 oz of Blueberry from 1 BB clone (DWC) - she was small as she started Veg later
-------------------
Final Yield 4.25 oz of what looks to be relatively decent buds. Lowers are light and fluffy, but uppers are tight and dense.

Biggest bummer is I have been interviewing and expect a pre-employment hair test so I can't sample the goods for another 30 days :( ... However they are in curing jars and should be perfect by the Superbowl!!

MVP :jointsmile:

[Weedhound]

Yeah.....my MK's weighed out MUCH heavier than I thought it would by sight as well. Good work. :thumbsup:

[MVP]

You are right WH, and their smell is SOOOOO delicious! I am gonna bake up some goodies for the Superbowl party!

Any ideas on a good recipe for cookies (need to change up from Brownies) is appreciated.

MVP :noel: