Your thoughts: In the closet? [Archive] - Green Grass Forums

Ganj

08-09-2007, 10:21 AM

A thought was stricken upon while I laid in bed this early morning. Many thoughts came but this one was persistent, as it has been menacing my mind since it first arrived, little under a year ago.

Determining my sexual orientation has become forefront in my thoughts, and as I laid in bed, the notion that I could engage a man sexually grew increasingly acceptable. However, I fail to see how simply accepting the notion would orientate my sexuality, as I do hope to have children someday with my wife. Now, this desire to procreate a child of whom is genetically enhanced with mine and my wife's DNA should be the determining factor of my sexual orientation.

So...as it is, I am accepting of homosexual intimacy, but not of homosexual marriage? I realize that artificial insemination is a possibility for homosexuals who do not want to adopt. And just the same as choosing a wife, homosexuals can choose a woman with desirable traits/characteristics to complete the artificial creation. However, I cannot entirely dismiss the woman as futile, because when it comes down to it, I want the mother of my child to assist in raising what is partly hers. I want my child to be able to observe what is biologically him/her. And if she dies or divorces me, then I will be gay. I'm having a difficult time with this. A little help please?

And try not to be presumptuous because this is a tender issue for me. Any inclining one way or another will flip my world upside down. So please, keep the responses thought-provoking and leave the final judgments to me. I'm trying to get people to walk me through this...or is it already resolved?

Better yet...be presumptuous! Tell me what you think.

Let the polls begin!

snowblind

08-09-2007, 11:40 AM

And if she dies or divorces me, then I will be gay.

says it all really

thcbongman

08-09-2007, 11:48 AM

I don't think you are gay, or will be ever gay.

You are only a lover at heart that has been temporarily jaded. When it comes down to it, an act with another man would repulse you.

People like you and me, romantics, we sometimes wonder too much because we aren't bound to conformity. When it comes down to it, I know deep down you know, you aren't close to being gay.

snowblind

08-09-2007, 01:21 PM

i think if you spend alot of time debating it, it is quetionable. but then again somethings need to be questioned. sexuality and sex are somewhat mutually exlusive. i know this is retarded to say, but if you are gay and sleep with women it doesn't make you straight and vice versa.
all the questions you need answering you can. just give yourself time. there is a buddhist art through meditation where you ask yourself a question and wait in a relaxed calm medative like state till the answer bubbles up, maybe this will work.
it may be that you are inexperienced and the sex life you have with your wife is lacking, but you love her so the idea of sleeping wiht a man is more comfortable than the idea of cheating and hurting her.
i don't know im not you, its just the quote i repeated seemed like the only reason you remain straight is to have chilldren and to be with your wife. asif you are trapped in a life you feel you have to take.
i honestly dont know and no one on her does, but be honest and truthfull and no one can ask anmore

peace out brohter

snowblind

spliffstar22

08-09-2007, 04:46 PM

your straight, that's that.......stop overthinking

stinkyattic

08-09-2007, 05:00 PM

I'd say simply bi-CURIOUS with a lil' thing for the ladies. And NO, I don't mean you're hung like a tic-tac, lol.
Relax kiddo. Just be comfortable with who you are and where you're at- don't overthink things- if you need to go find yourself sexually, do it; but don't wreck a good thing because you have hit that mid-20's moment when you are all "OMG THIS is what life is? Stagnant? Oppressive?" It'll pass. Don't mistake feeling bogged down with wanting a new lifestyle sexually. It's entirely possible that all ya need to cheer you up is a career change, go back to school, some sort of change of scenery.

40oz

08-09-2007, 05:33 PM

Think of it like this, you are only straight by default. When it comes right down to it, it just matters who you like more, men or women.

In ancient times having sex with another man or even a young boy was not looked at as homosexual or anything like that, it was all about the penetration, dominance and good feelings. Somewhere along the line making love with a partner of the sex was looked at as weird and gross.

Personally I don't get aroused by men, so I am not gay. If sex with men makes you happy, then go for it and trying to fight those feelings will make your life hell. Regardless of what the majority of our society may think homosexual sex is as natural as masturbation.

Ganj

08-09-2007, 07:15 PM

I really appreciate the responses. They were probably the best ones anyone could have asked for. The whole 'in the closet' thing was beginning to worry me. I don't know how the thought became prevalent in my mind, but it was as if I was being forced to feel something I didn't want to. Anytime someone would joke around about homosexuality, I felt strangely convinced that I was gay because of the way I reacted to the jokes. I believe now I can face the jokes and maybe add a little gay-ness to them myself. It's hard not knowing where you stand in all this. "Can I joke?" "Should I laugh?" "Am I gay?" "Are they gay?" I shaved my head because I was pulling my hair out!

I felt that since I was not totally comfortable with myself, that I may not be totally honest with myself either, and that was the fuel that powered the investigation. And, actually 40oz, the Japanese Samurai felt there was nothing wrong with loving another man, especially out there on the battlefield. And I don't become sexually aroused by men, either...only when I watch football which is totally understandable. When it all boils down, any act of homosexuality could be considered as an act of recreational companionship or it might physically repulse me, like bongman said. In the end though, my emotional needs will demand much more than just friendly sex.

Spoken Word

08-09-2007, 07:34 PM

Hmm. It's a difficult thing to respond to because I don't know you personally.

From what I've read, it seems to me that you accept your homosexuality. You just don't know how to live with it. You mentioned having a child, marrying and if a divorce happends....then you'll accept your homosexuality. which i think is.....wrong?. lol

i mean, you really have to see what excites you more. I've heard of men and specifically...BOYS that expierement with their sexuality to find out for sure. Try it. See if you can be with another man. I think you can because I watch football everyday and I see it as brutal, not anything that arouses me. the fact that you are aroused means you are looking for something sexual in the game. That says something.

I've analyzed men and how hey act and it seems to me that the guys that are comfortable wth their sexuality do things that could be considered "odd" or "gay", when I'm sure they are not. For example, slapping another mans ass with tights on. like in football....lol

now, maybe you haven't met that gay man that stimulates you to pursue a gay relationship. that would explain your not accepting gay marriage.

I say, stop worrying what OTHER people think of your sexuality and find out for yourself.

I think you are bisexual. because my male homosexual friends tell me that they can't even get hard enough to procreate with a female.
so if you can, i think it means you take a liking to females as well..
when it comes to your sexuality, see what "arouses" you faster and harder. lol
simply put.

i hope this isn't affecting your peace and pursuit of happiness.

stinkyattic

08-09-2007, 07:43 PM

the Japanese Samurai felt there was nothing wrong with loving another man, especially out there on the battlefield. In the Coast Guard that is referred to as "Maritime- Induced Gender Indifference"... :wtf:

tAnd I don't become sexually aroused by men, either...only when I watch football which is totally understandable..Well DUH, spandex and buns? In all seriousness though studies have been done on male sexual responses to watching sporting events, particularly team sports, and found that there is an increase in sexual arousal particularly when your team is doing well- this wasn't linked to homosexuality, but they thought to a male warrior/hunter instinct. I was intrigued. No wonder sports bars are like the buffet-o-dudes when the Sox are doing well! :D

Breukelen advocaat

08-09-2007, 07:45 PM

.I've analyzed men and how hey act and it seems to me that the guys that are comfortable wth their sexuality do things that could be considered "odd" or "gay", when I'm sure they are not. For example, slapping another mans ass with tights on. like in football....lol

Personally, I think that the athletes who do that are a little light in the loafers.

Ganj

08-09-2007, 08:37 PM

In the Coast Guard that is referred to as "Maritime- Induced Gender Indifference"... :wtf:

Well DUH, spandex and buns? In all seriousness though studies have been done on male sexual responses to watching sporting events, particularly team sports, and found that there is an increase in sexual arousal particularly when your team is doing well- this wasn't linked to homosexuality, but they thought to a male warrior/hunter instinct. I was intrigued. No wonder sports bars are like the buffet-o-dudes when the Sox are doing well! :D

That IS an interesting study. Spoken Word, when you put it like that...women arouse me "faster" and "harder," as you so eloquently put it. Do you talk to your mother with that mouth? :D

I could be looking for sex or I have played too much Madden with a Dual-Shock Playstation controller? Usually, the games ended in forfeit, as my arousal became something I needed to handle.

I just read an article about Homosexual OCD, and it seems the key difference is homosexuals are attracted to members of the same sex but may keep it secret, as homosexuality has become a "social stigma." So...I guess the big question is, "Am I attracted to members of the same sex?" However, the homosexual thoughts I have are typically unwanted and intrusive, so I fight them off which results in homophobic behavior, like avoiding contact with other guys due to anxiety and worry of what people may assume. The thing is I am strangely open-minded to the idea. I am repulsed by the thought of engaging another man but I do not want that disgust to be fuel for homophobia. And also, simply because I experience anxiety to homosexual thoughts does not mean I have "H" OCD.

The worry is unrelenting and to cast it away would be terrific but at the cost of my happiness? You all say I'm over-thinking things but maybe that is grounds for homosexuality or bi-sexuality? After all, I did say the thoughts grew increasingly acceptable.

If sexual preference is the determining factor for your sexual orientation, then I am heterosexual. However, I have come to this conclusion before and still the intrusive thoughts come. Symptoms of "H" OCD or am I failing to 'come to grips' with my sexuality?

Ganj

08-09-2007, 09:05 PM

stinkyattic

08-09-2007, 09:13 PM

Your hearts must be made of gold.
Naw, we just like looking at that awesome avatar.

GraziLovesMary

08-09-2007, 09:34 PM

Hehe calm down Ganj, its called curiosity. You are straight, dont worry about that, but you are having an internal battle between the natural human sexual instinct to explore all the things that excite you, and the imposed view on sexuality being a homo or hetero matter. Sexuality is much more dynamic than black or white. In fact it is almost entirely gray area, with much lighter or much darker values. Its really that simple. Different stimuli sexually excite different people, or alternatively, different people respond differently to their arousal by the same stimuli. Being repulsed by your own curious thoughts in that direction of same-sex sexual activity is only going to perpetuate things. Just relax and go with the flow.

Its obvious that you love women, and sexually they are much more exciting to you than dudes, however there are those inexplicable stimuli that just get your blood flowing, and its relatively new to you. When we are sexually aroused, we often look towards things we consider taboo because it creates a more exciting experience.. its analogous to fetishes, how some people when theyre horny they want to be slapped or choked because its more exciting for them.

Stop worrying about what all these thoughts might imply, and just do what feels right. And dont start feeling wierd around your dude friends, that will only make matters worse. They have no clue what is going on in your head, you are allowing yourself to be controlled by paranoia. Eventually things will fall into place and you will feel much better. Plus.. havent you watched Southpark?? Dont you know that its not gay to watch another guy jack off?? LMAO sorry I just watched my Third season of Southpark again last night. For real dude, theres nothing to worry about, you are completely fine.

Ganj

08-09-2007, 09:38 PM

Maybe I'll try snowblind's advice and meditate on it. When I'm not meditating, the thoughts seem to be badgered by judgment, worry, and it leads me around in circles. I know I don't have OCD, or at least I have not been diagnosed. I know that if I can face this calmly, then I will arrive to something meaningful, and perhaps put an end to all this. Maybe I should just accept bi-sexuality and be done with it? There. I am bi-sexual. The sensation of anal penetration seems enjoyable. Like Stiffler, when the nurse puts her finger in his ass to induce an orgasm. His he gay? No. Just maybe a little more sexually explorative than most men. The fact is, I am happy to have sex with women. I may worry about performance at times but that is nothing that cannot be solved with a little bit of experience, and perhaps a woman who gets off easily.

I guess I was letting my curiosity 'bog me down,' as you put it Stinky. Maybe I do desire a different sexual lifestyle, after all internet porn gets old after awhile. I suppose I should have mentioned that I masturbate on a daily basis?

birdgirl73

08-09-2007, 09:43 PM

This place is full of largely decent, nice people, and I'm glad you got compassionate responses.

So I wondered a couple of things, Ganj, when I first read your post. One of them I was able to get answered on my own by looking at your profile; that was my question about how old you are. You're still quite young and are really just now coming into the phase in your life where you're deciding your likes and dislikes in all sorts of areas. But my other questions were whether or not you've yet had any experiences, either with men or women, so far. And I wondered whether you've had any "conditioning" or teaching in your background about whether certain types of sexual orientation are wrong or right. Just curious.

Ganj

08-09-2007, 09:56 PM

GraziLovesMary

08-09-2007, 10:14 PM

Well birdgirl, I have had three different sexual partners (all women). And no, my mother always left it up to me to make my own decisions in life, which is probably why I'm a bit indecisive at times...?

There was one occasion though that I believe I was taken advantage of in an unconscious state. However, I have dismissed that notion as irrational and delusional. The suspected culprit was one of my close friends. We did a lot of drugs together and this one particular weekend in question is a little hazy in my mind. I don't remember what happened that week but thoughts that I gave someone oral sex arise when friends make homosexual jokes, that seemingly designating this particular evening as the root of the joke. It's like a dream to me now that I was giving myself oral sex but seeing as how that is impossible...who got the blowjob?

It gets loads more complicated when those thoughts come into play. "Did I really do that and I'm just repressing the memory?" I try not to let it get me down though. If I did do something like that, then I will accept it for what it is. However, if I didn't you could only imagine the confusion that follows such delusions.

Two things: First, its called autofellatio, and its entirely possible, although rather damaging to the spine and internal organs.

Second, if that really did happen and some of your friends remember it, or remember something of the like happening.. the thing is they dont seem to treat you any differently so at least you know the nature of your friendship hasnt been damaged.

With that I would recommend accepting things that have happened, may have happened, or may happen as just another experience without attaching any sort of stigma to it.

Instead of placing a title upon yourself, such as homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual.. why not just be sexual? You love sex, you love sensual and sexual acts, the intimacy, the pleasure, the stimulation and excitement.. theres nothing wrong with that. If you are able to be honest with yourself like that, and non judgemental towards yourself, then you will be able to enjoy exploring whatever sexual activity your libido has gotten you in the mood for, without feeling guilty.

birdgirl73

08-09-2007, 10:15 PM

I figure whatever you are, you'll make your peace with it in time and will continue to solidify those feelings with more experiences. As you begin to get more experience--and this is advice I'd give to any young person anyplace--make an effort to get those experiences in the most conscious, least drugged-out or drunken state you can. Not only so you'll be aware of the memories you're making later on, assuming they're memory-worthy experiences. But also so you'll be fully conscious of what you're doing and in control of your physical, emotional, and disease-prevention destiny. That's advice I wish more college-aged people would heed.

Here, by the way, is a link that you might be informative. It's been many years since Dr. Alfred Kinsey created this scale to identify the spectrum of sexual orientation, but it's still very good information that will let you know everyone doesn't necessarily fall into two clear, opposing sexual orientation categories. Most thinking scientists know that people fall into every category along the way and that everyone's unique.
Kinsey scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale)

Ganj

08-09-2007, 10:43 PM

Thank you all for your knowledgeable responses. I am not the type to engage in meaningless debauchery, regardless of my libido. That could prove catastrophic, especially in my circle of friends. However, if I manage my sexuality responsibly then there will be nothing to feel guilty about...right, grazi?

I will make peace with my sexuality in time. That is certain. Thanks again for guiding me through this, you all. I feel slightly less criminal already. As for discovering my sexuality, I believe that will also come with time. I will know when I am ready. In the meantime, I shall try to find comfort knowing that gay thoughts are perfectly normal and are merely stimuli for an active...active libido. Or something like that?

Breukelen advocaat

08-09-2007, 10:49 PM

It's obvious I'm having trouble facing this issue 'head-on,' as any inclining one way or the other leaves me discouraged and indifferent. I do not want to be gay, and I do not want be anxious or worry around my male friends. Where are those 'pearls of wisdom' when you need them?

By the way, thank you all. Somehow my threads manage to summon the most compassionate individuals. Your hearts must be made of gold.

I thought that there are probably many other males in the same boat as you, and it turns out that there is an online support group called People Can Change.

From their website:
People Can Change is a non-profit educational, outreach and support organization of men who have successfully transitioned out of unwanted homosexual attractions and increased their heterosexual identify, feelings and behaviors. People Can Change is not a religious ministry, nor is it affiliated with any religious faith or organization.

People Can Change - An alternative, healing response to unwanted homosexual desires (http://www.peoplecanchange.com/index.htm)

stinkyattic

08-09-2007, 10:54 PM

Hm, I dunno BA... that creeps the living shit outta me.
Seems like 'hey, since we can't do electroshock therapy on ya any more... we'll invite you to join our CULT....'
Whatever happened to affirming who you really are? It's 2007... not 1807.

birdgirl73

08-09-2007, 10:59 PM

stinkyattic

08-09-2007, 11:01 PM

....the implication is that people need to change......
....I wonder if that motivation is borne of early conditioning/teaching and ideas about one way being right and another wrong.
There ya go, thank you for putting it so eloquently.

Ganj

08-09-2007, 11:03 PM

That's for people who want to change, right, BA? I hope so. My hesitation with such an organization, even if it's not tied to one of those awful religion-affiliated "recovery"-like organizations, is the implication is that people need to change.

I tend to think people need to be who they are and be true to themselves. But I suppose there must be some percentage of folks who are motivated to change themselves. Still, I wonder if that motivation is borne of early conditioning/teaching and ideas about one way being right and another wrong.

That's why you asked about my background, right? In my family, I was never preached heterosexuality or taught to condone homosexuality. I guess the only "conditioning" has been the struggle with my sexuality in society.

Breukelen advocaat

08-09-2007, 11:28 PM

That's for people who want to change, right, BA? I hope so. My hesitation with such an organization, even if it's not tied to one of those awful religion-affiliated "recovery"-like organizations, is the implication is that people need to change.

I tend to think people need to be who they are and be true to themselves. But I suppose there must be some percentage of folks who are motivated to change themselves. Still, I wonder if that motivation is borne of early conditioning/teaching and ideas about one way being right and another wrong.
I don't know - the People Can Change agenda does seem a little better than the religion organizations, but despite their claims of being non-religious, they managed to work "God" into it, complete with a "step" program that encourages "surrender". Some of it is undoubtedly good advice, for some people's problems. The hard part is weeding it out.

This is a link, found at People Can Change, which is another approach to these conflicts:
International Healing Foundation - Changing From Gay To Straight Is Possible (http://www.gaytostraight.org/)

LuckyG

08-09-2007, 11:50 PM

I think everyone deals with homosexual feelings. I know I did when I was a teenager, especially towards men who helped me out during the period when my parents were getting separated. Turns out I like boobs more though, so I ended up straight. :D

Jokes aside, I think you're probably oversexed, if that is indeed a word - your sexual drive is at an all-time high, and your brain is seeing everyone around you as a potential partner. There's nothing wrong with that (I wish someone had told me that when it was happening to me) and it'll pass in time. Until then, go with what your gut feeling tells you.

Chronisseur

08-10-2007, 01:39 AM

Ganj, it sounds to me like you're only being %100 honest with yourself. For a while I started thinking I might be bi, but then realized it was just the change of thought process from "thats fuckin' WRONG" to "whatever floats your boat"! Really just sounds like a natural process of maturing to me. Either way, you sound smart, I'm sure you'll figure out whats best for you! Good luck and stop over-analyzing yourself:D

stinkyattic

08-10-2007, 01:45 AM

If there is one word to describe out dear Ganj, it is 'smart'.
(oversexed runs a close second :D)

geonagual

08-10-2007, 01:50 AM

is the implication is that people need to change.

I tend to think people need to be who they are and be true to themselves. But I suppose there must be some percentage of folks who are motivated to change themselves. Still, I wonder if that motivation is borne of early conditioning/teaching and ideas about one way being right and another wrong.

People attempt to change, no one changes...

it is all about transformation...

Ganj

08-10-2007, 01:58 AM

If there is one word to describe out dear Ganj, it is 'smart'.
(oversexed runs a close second :D)

That's me... a sex-machine. ;) How you doin'? :p

snowblind

08-12-2007, 01:11 AM

Hehe calm down Ganj, its called curiosity. You are straight, dont worry about that, but you are having an internal battle between the natural human sexual instinct to explore all the things that excite you, and the imposed view on sexuality being a homo or hetero matter. Sexuality is much more dynamic than black or white. In fact it is almost entirely gray area, with much lighter or much darker values. Its really that simple. Different stimuli sexually excite different people, or alternatively, different people respond differently to their arousal by the same stimuli. Being repulsed by your own curious thoughts in that direction of same-sex sexual activity is only going to perpetuate things. Just relax and go with the flow.

tru dat, when i took psyc my tutor was gay. but he was like a lumberjack. just made cock jokes. sound bloke though. had a j with him after exams at the pub. anyway we did a module on sexuality and it aint black and white with bi sexuality sitting on the fence. its commonly refered to as a sliding scale., 1-6.

straight one side, gay the other then scaleing factors towards the middle. each one represents different things. but people fall into all different types of catergories. bi with a tendecy to females. bi with no interest in females. tru half and half, which is greedy. lol. but its just a spectrum

and people can change throughout their life. flip flop, slide from one side to the other and right back again. we have elivated ouselves above the food chain so sex is no longer about procreation. its about havin a good time and not gettin a skank up the dove.

so yeah, enjoy yourself. do what ever makes you happy. take the piss out of flamers. they love it and my psyc teacher did it all the time. so if he can then we should all be able to

peace and progress

snowblind

DarkHairedSativa

08-12-2007, 02:08 AM

I think that you are curious.... but do you truly love your wife and does SHE know how you feel. If you are with her,she should really be who you are opening up to.As far as cheating goes I think it is cheating whether it is female or male,when you engage in anything sexual with someone who is not your life partner.But you should talk to her about this too.I know for a fact I would want my man to open up to me,because it will show through to her that you aren't all there during your time together and she'll wonder if it's her or if she's done something wrong.... trust me I know.However maybe she would prefer not to know and to remain innocently ignorant of this type of issue in her husband.I don't know as I don't know her or you,Babe. But i would want to know.... I agree with Stinkyattic on a change in your surroundings or a change in your career choice....or simply try something romantic and seductive and completely out of the ordinary with your wife ....maybe that's all you need.Something to revive the sexual drive you obviously used to have for her that gets bogged down and forgotten as you pass through life day by day.Either way....good luck and peaceful thoughts and dreams being sent your way darlin'!!!

<3, Tiva:jointsmile:

khronik

08-14-2007, 02:46 AM

In our society we put too much emphasis on putting people into categories. Gay, straight, bi, black, white, etc. You are who you are, and you shouldn't have to categorize yourself.

I know others have said it, but just not being repulsed by the idea of sex with a man doesn't make you gay. Lots of people have messed around with the same sex. I have. Does that make me gay? No, I didn't really enjoy it. It was nowhere near as good as sex with a woman, which is like a million times better for me.

The idea that messing around with, or being somewhat attracted to the same sex is a big deal is purely societal. Any strong anxiety you have on the matter has more to do with your thoughts on the way society would view you than anything else. And honestly, it's none of society's business.

Did I make any sense? I was similarly conflicted a while back, (although I didn't have a relationship to worry about) and this is my attempt to explain the conclusion I came to.

twoguysupnorth

08-16-2007, 05:03 PM

i had to agree with snowblind in the beginning. that statement says alot about how you were feeling." i would be gay" when it comes down to it recognizing who or what you are will come with time. it doesnt have as much or anything to do with your wife, other than how you choose to live your life. yes you might love her and yes it might hurt her to tell her how you feel, but really if you were gay it would end up hurting you both more to deny who you are. and that goes for the kids that arent in the picture yet. there are alot of men out there that remain married but are online or cruising dangerous places looking for sex. the decision is yours and you will end up making the right one for you.
i was your age exactly when i said to myself that yes i am gay or at the very least bi. so i went with the bi thing for a while because just like you i wanted kids and a "real" family. after a while i realized that i still wasnt being honest with myself and had to admit to being totally gay( to myself ) now i am really glad that i didnt produce children(i still think about it sometimes though) or get married and then divorced, things just worked out for the best. i now have a partner of several yrs and wouldnt trade it back for anything. he does have kids and was married. i still got my family in a way, and my real family was totally accepting of me and any partners that i ever had. not everyones story has turned out as well but you will figure it out. dont rush it, you are only 19. you have a long life ahead of you.

Ganj

08-16-2007, 06:06 PM

I appreciate your response, twoguysupnorth. And just for future reference, folks...I don't have a wife. It was merely a hypothetical scenario.

Also, have any of you all ever had to face up to a friend for doing something really inconsiderate to them? It was nearly two years ago that this occurred, and I haven't been able to face anyone from that circle of friends without thinking I was going to be jumped. In the back of my mind, I want to leave! It tells me that I don't give a damn about these people; I hate this town, etc. Then I have a breakthrough and I feel confident enough to face the world again. I cannot even identify what my strife is! Is it these particular people or people in general?