Feminism (male input welcomed)

[smoke it]

feminism = women equal to men
not big hairy lesy chicks yelling about how men put them down like all my buddies seem to think

[dutch.lover]

I've been through my share of feminist classes as well, and I liked my Third Wave Feminism class the best, though my friend and I in it had an interesting discussion, which was never answered. She pointed out that since feminism is opening up so much that almost everyone's version of feminism is viable, what's to stop an antifeminist from calling themselves feminist? I didn't have an answer, but I left university calling myself a feminist. After graduation, I now work at a sawmill with a crew list of men except for one woman. Most of them treat me very equally and I couldn't ask for a better group. And when I use the term equally, I mean they treat me as a member of the group. They don't censor their language around me, they don't censor their topics, they treat me according to my experience level and strength. One guy, who calls himself a gentleman and often complains of the uncouth company he is 'forced' to work with, stood out and invited me to dinner one night, and, regretably, I accepted. (I swear, this is leading to something) Anyhow, during the course of the evening, he tried to ply me with lots of wine, repeatedly said things like "I'm old enough to be your father but I'm sexually attracted to me" (he's OLDER than my father) while staring at me hungrily, mentioned that one of the other guys on the crew must have done something to his daughter since she didn't marry until she was 30, and then to top it all off, when I mentioned I considered myself a feminist, he said he was one too. Ever since, I don't consider myself a feminist.

So Dutch.Lover, or anyone else, for that matter, do you have any comments? Because I'm for sure still struggling with that dilemma.

First off, I wouldn't stop calling yourself a feminist just because some dumbass happened to ruin the term for you (he doesnt sound like a feminist IMO lol He probably only said that to get in ur pants). But on the otherhand, 'feminist' is just a word, a label. If you don't call yourself a feminist, it doesn't change who you really are...so in essence it really doesn't matter. That pertains to the antifeminism bit too...who cares if an antifeminist calls themselves a feminist? Well I am sure a lot of real feminists would be pissed, but we shouldn't take things at face value in the first place...I could call myself the President if I want, but it wouldn't make it true. "feminism" as it's known, could be ruined if a whole bunch of nonfeminists started labeling themselves as feminists, but I really don't think it would have that big of an effect.

For the record, I am not an expert in the realm of feminism. I have been taking Women's Studies since september, but I have had a really awesome prof who has gotten me really interested in it. What I like the best about the class is how it broadens my perspective and teaches critical thinking. My teacher will bring up an issue that seems nonimportant, but then analyzes it so we really get a feel for what it's all about. She also brings up the interconnections between sex, race, and class and has many discussions about how they are all related.

I am pleased with how this thread is going too! I enjoy answering questions, but I would also like to hear more about everyones 'relationship' with feminism (stuff that i talked about in my first post)...also, I would really like to read more on stuff that Goats has gone thru, u know, personal stories. That kinda thing. :hippy:

[Demeter]

Oh, dangit all to hell: I was doing my eyebrows and saw this thread, got sidetracked, and now I'm kinda lopsided. Anyhow, first of, I'd like to say congrats and thanks to all of you for keeping this thread civil. I've read far too many long long threads about many topics which I stand on one side or the other including feminism, gun control, abortion, and read through far too many threads which were nothing but thoughtless, rude screaming. As far as contributing: I don't have much to say though I would like to ask Dutch.Lover a question that's been bothering me lately.

I've been through my share of feminist classes as well, and I liked my Third Wave Feminism class the best, though my friend and I in it had an interesting discussion, which was never answered. She pointed out that since feminism is opening up so much that almost everyone's version of feminism is viable, what's to stop an antifeminist from calling themselves feminist? I didn't have an answer, but I left university calling myself a feminist. After graduation, I now work at a sawmill with a crew list of men except for one woman. Most of them treat me very equally and I couldn't ask for a better group. And when I use the term equally, I mean they treat me as a member of the group. They don't censor their language around me, they don't censor their topics, they treat me according to my experience level and strength. One guy, who calls himself a gentleman and often complains of the uncouth company he is 'forced' to work with, stood out and invited me to dinner one night, and, regretably, I accepted. (I swear, this is leading to something) Anyhow, during the course of the evening, he tried to ply me with lots of wine, repeatedly said things like "I'm old enough to be your father but I'm sexually attracted to me" (he's OLDER than my father) while staring at me hungrily, mentioned that one of the other guys on the crew must have done something to his daughter since she didn't marry until she was 30, and then to top it all off, when I mentioned I considered myself a feminist, he said he was one too. Ever since, I don't consider myself a feminist.

So Dutch.Lover, or anyone else, for that matter, do you have any comments? Because I'm for sure still struggling with that dilemma.

Because one creepazoid tells you he's a feminist, now you question your own belief? Oh my, that won't do.

Dear sweetie, please repeat after me :
EVERYTHING that creepy old guys say to get into my pants is FALSE!
EVERYTHING that creepy old guys say to get into my pants is FALSE!
EVERYTHING that creepy old guys say to get into my pants is FALSE!
This you must never forget:hippy:

[slowlickitysplit]

I would love to have this discussion in person becasue i speak much better then I type but...

I graduated HS in 1978 so I know of radical feminisim. I lost a quarter to my radical cousin on the Billy Jean/Bobby Rigs tennis match. Billionfold opened an interesting point but didn't follow through....

Pre-Feminisim a man could support his family on one income but, along came feminisim and the liberal wife next door got a part time job and they could suddenly afford a nicer vacation/car/education for the kids ect.. Well, if she can I can...suddenly all the women are working and you're living in an upscale neighborhood and two incomes is the norm....then, suddenly....it is a necessity.

I hate to be the devils advocate (Ok - not really true) but I think America started it's great decline the day they gave women the vote. I am not a neaderthal, this is simply my informed opinion.

PS.
I heard a story about a woman yelling at a guy for holding the door for her:
"You don't have to hold the door for me because I'm a woman!" she said.

"I'm not. I'm holding the door for you because I'm a gentelman." He repied.

Things that make you go Hmmm.

- Slow -

[Purple Banana]

I hate to be the devils advocate (Ok - not really true) but I think America started it's great decline the day they gave women the vote. I am not a neaderthal, this is simply my informed opinion.

How is that being a Devil's advocate? Do you even know what that term means? 'Informed opinion' gives the reader the sense that you have researched this, but it seems more like a blanket closeminded opinion to me.

How can you say that giving women the right to vote started the decline in America? I'd like to know your reasoning behind it.

And as for the ending section of your post, those are isolated cases. If one woman says "I hate guys with blond hair," it doesn't represent all females. Just ones with different beliefs.

[Demeter]

How is that being a Devils advocate? Do you even know what that term means? 'Informed opinion' gives the reader the sense that you have researched this, but it seems more like a blanket closeminded opinion to me.

How can you say that giving women the right to vote started the decline in America? I'd like to know your reasoning behind it.

Dear PB, I'm afraid we can't expect reason from this simple fellow, his brain seems too calcified. I'm not going to say any more about how stupid his remark was, for I fear that is why some people say ignorant things, because they like to get a rise out of others. It is some kind of entertainment for the dullwitted. Suffice it to say, he probably can't comprehend any of your intelligent questions, much less answer them!
You are just one of those smart women he must feel threatened by

[Matt the Funk]

Ok, here is the way I view it. People are people. We should all be treated equally. Women SHOULD have the right to vote, nothing at all wrong with it. They should have all the rights we have (except urinals, those are men only). But there really shouldn't be a competition. Women should protest for fair treatment, but should not be dicks about it(like the stereotype). It's just like all the other right's movement stereotypes. I think the reason females were givin fewer rights is because, since the begining of time(I assume) males have just dominated and done hunting etc, while the females took care of their young. And this just went on for millions of years, while evolving, until now when enough women have cared to change it. Ok that's all I have to say.

[dutch.lover]

Pre-Feminisim a man could support his family on one income but, along came feminisim and the liberal wife next door got a part time job and they could suddenly afford a nicer vacation/car/education for the kids ect.. Well, if she can I can...suddenly all the women are working and you're living in an upscale neighborhood and two incomes is the norm....then, suddenly....it is a necessity.

I hate to be the devils advocate (Ok - not really true) but I think America started it's great decline the day they gave women the vote. I am not a neaderthal, this is simply my informed opinion.

This post angered me so badly I am having problems typing...so sorry if I don't make sense, perhaps I will come back to this later with a clearer head.

First off, I would like you to prove how America went downhill after we EARNED AND FOUGHT FOR the RIGHT to vote (you did not GIVE us the vote, we took it). In my opinion, America was doomed from the beginning...capitalism and Christianity's control over the country is causing this 'great decline'.

You ARE a neanderthal as far as I am concerned, because you seem to think that this world would be best if it were run solely by men.

I really hope you go around telling more people your "informed" opinion on this matter, because many other minorities would gladly tear you apart with their bare hands. When women got the right to vote, it spearheaded the equality movement for all minorities. Shortly after white women got the right to vote, women of color got to vote too. With the women's right to vote, minorities in North America were finally seen as 'people' in the eyes of the law- however, it is people like you who make many minorites still feel unhuman.

edit to say: I don't care if any of you make fun of me for getting "angry over something someone posted on the internet"... more people should care about issues, regardless of their location

[powair]

I hate feminism! In all of its forms.

[Polymirize]

In the same respect that civil rights and prejudice is still an issue, even through minorities are now aquited all the legal rights of citizens, feminism still has some valid points to make.
But I'll also agree with some of the previous posters, and BG especially, that the end goal should of course be a humanism. Samwhore had this beautiful utopian vision of a world where such -isms are unnecessary because nobody holds prejudices. Sign me up!
But realistically, we usually never recognize our unconcious prejudices until we're slapped in the face with them. Which is precisely why feminism is such a useful critique.
I think feminism, for all its failings, does a remarkable job of pointing out masculine centered reasoning, in place we might never expect. Ethics for example. And when you realise certain reasonings have a gender to them, it might give you a reason to examine them more closely, for the purposes of a humanitarian viewpoint.