Feminism (male input welcomed)

[birdgirl73]

Breuk, lately every time you post, I realize that you're one of the most archaicâ??and frighteningly uninformedâ??men I've ever been acquainted with. You also distort the most simple concepts put forth by others. Cases in point below:

- To get equal pay for equal work
We already have laws for that.
No we certainly do not. We have laws for equal opportunity employment which aren't always honored, but we don't have any such law for equal pay. Unless you have one in NYC. Nationally? No sir. Women still make .73 - .82 cents for every dollar men do.

- To receive equal educations and have teachers and professors nurture girl and women, gay, and racially diverse students in the same way they do straight white male students, from K - post-graduate professional school
Translation: Affirmative action based on sex and race. "Special" considerations, and additional coddling for said recipients.
Affirmative action was your translation, not mine. Here I simply want teachers to pay the same attention to women and minorities as they do to boys and men. Do your research. They donâ??t do this in primary or secondary schools. They donâ??t do this in colleges, grad schools or law/medical schools, either. What a pity youâ??re not aware of this. Itâ??s been studied and proven repeatedly.

- To get equal consideration for all jobs
See above
Again, you're seeing it through your own disparagement filter here. I mean real equal consideration. That does not happen right now. Ask the EEO Commission or the Dept of Labor. They see thousands of cases every day that have nothing to do with affirmative action or lack of it.

- To be free from religious or political judgment or oppression
Women and minorities are not free of this type of behavior, but get away with it even more today.
I don't even know what that meant, but, as is so often the case with you, it conveyed disdain instead of coherent thought. I want us all to be free from religious or political judgment or oppression. Even you.

- To receive and give equal courtesy (to have doors opened for us and to open doors for others, both literally and figuratively)
American men are still chivalrous, to a large extent, but you can't please everybody.
My goal was of a many-way street of courtesy but, yet again, you didn't grasp that and interpreted this only through a sexist male-female filter. I want us all opening doors for each other, and I mean women for men, men for transvestites, all people for old folks, men for women, all people for people of color and vice versa. And I want us opening the thought and perception doors (like in education, health care, and religion) that have been closed to these groups before now.

- To be seen as intellectually equal with 25- 55-something white men no matter what gender, race, age or sexual preference we are
To be "seen", whether they are or are not intellectually equal in every case? Generally speaking, nobody really takes intelligence into account as far as these criteriaâ??s go, but who is responsible for most of the world's inventions and scientific discoveries?
To be acknowledged as equal when intellectual equality exists. Here I began to get nauseated with the realization of just how out-of-balance intellectual equality is with you.

- To compete and be considered for physical jobs when we demonstrate physical equality (military combat and fire-fighting are two that pop into my head)
Men cannot be chivalrous and work with women in dangerous jobs at the same time. They have been raised, at least in America, to protect - and it is very dangerous for them to have women on the front lines in hazardous occupations such as firefighting. Their wives and female loved ones know this better then anyone.
Malarkey. Men wouldn't be asked to be chivalrous any more than women in these jobs would, and if they felt inclined toward it, then that wouldn't be reason to prevent women from having those jobs even so. I was a firefighter-medic for 7 years. Physically strong women do that work every day. You probably didn't know that paramedics pass all the same firefighting and physical endurance exams and get all the same training that men do. We suit up and fight fires in addition to doing medical rescue work every day. We work as police officers, too. Those of us who are physically capable, as we are in firefighting and police work, can do the same in military combat. Both genders can support each other in dangerous situations. In reality, that's how that actually works in those jobs.

- To have men of all races and geographies, particularly the ones who have a touch of machismo or religious-influenced women/gays/blacks-are-second-class-citizens attitudes, regard us as intellectual equals, and to have any women/gays/people of color who don't perceive us as such (and there are a frightening lot of them) regard us the same way
Religions are primarily supported by women, minorities, and the working class.
Check your facts more closely. In America, slightly more women attend church than men. But people who consider themselves religious both here and around the world are a balanced mix of women, men, minorities, and various classes. Universally, the primary financial and political supportâ??and every aspect of organized religion/church leadershipâ??comes from men. Your response really had nothing whatsoever to do with the goal I cited.

- To have mastery of our own physical destiny, which extends to
1. Medical care (women, people of color, gays, and poor people lag behind in their quality of health care)
2. Our reproductive rights (men and women, particularly, but also transgendered people. Here I mean birth control, abortion, and surgery to add, subtract or create female or male reproductive organs )
Who is supposed to pay for this multi-minority sexual-fetish utopia?
Here youâ??re distorting through your â??curmudgeonâ?� filter again. And itâ??s again a simple answer, not a utopian one. Same people pay for it who pay for it now. Insurance. Patients who pay fee-for-service/out-of-pocket. In some cases, health care social services, but thatâ??s rare. If we can get universal health care, thatâ??d help. You neednâ??t worry about that personally, though. You wonâ??t support it. When you have time, you need to read about the causes of transexualism (hormonal influence in fetal development) and also educate yourself on the actual definition of â??fetish.â?�

3. Our right to die with dignity and, if we need it, with compassionate assistance[/INDENT
No argument there.
Nor from me reciprocally. I do wish you regarded people who are different from you with equal amounts of dignity in life, however.

- To have equal rights to marry or not to marry, whether we're women in a non-equality culture like Saudi Arabia, or gays
Let's not interfere with Saudi Arabia anymore. Gays should be allowed to have civil unions equivilent to marriage.
Yet again you distorted a simple statement and answered it with a different tangent involving â??interference.â?� Please educate yourself. Saudi Arabia is simply a single example of the women-as-marriage-chattel behavior and attitude that goes on around the world all the time and even still occurs in well-developed countries (mostly by the more primitive religious groups). Thatâ??s what I want to stop for women. At least you understood the part about civil unions.

Iâ??m so glad Mrs. Greenjeans chimed in. For a while there, thought my brainy male and female friends here were probably either so perplexedâ??or so exhaustedâ??by you that they were not even going to waste their time commenting. After this, I shall follow their lead. Youâ??re not really someone who can follow simple debate points accurately enough to be able to respond logically.

Slowlickity, you can read my responses above to Breuk, which may answer some of yours. Especially about firefighting and the military and teacher-preferences for boys. Thatâ??s a proven fact. Over and over in now more than 20 recognized academic studies. Ask anyone from people in basic teacher training to the dean of the Harvard School of Education. Check it for yourself on Google. This is something we all need to be aware of.

[slowlickitysplit]

Wow. Mrs. GJ where's the love? Did i fertilize your garden? Why you jump on me? And Demeter; Negative reps? Why? because we disagree? Now I understand the pink Floyd song "We don't need no education" Better. Sure glad you're not coercing. uh, teaching my sons. Nice reasoning skills ladies!

Why do you want the right to vote? Just cause we have it? Voter appathy is at an all time high. You got the right but don't use it. We men no longer feel sole responsability for the course of our nation so why bother? Yes, that was tounge in cheek.

Wish I was enlightened enough to end this with a signature tha delt with your anatomy too. Unfortunately, my MOTHER taught me better.

- Slow -

[Breukelen advocaat]

And one more thing, to those of you who are saying/thinking "women have the same rights as men...the law says they do"...laws do not equal enforcement! Rights and laws don't mean anything unless those whom it pertains to are able to exercise those rights. Women are making much less than men in North America, and there are huge double standards. Most women work what is called the 'second shift'- they work 8+ hours a day at their job, then come home, and it's their 'job' to cook, clean and look after the kids. My stepmom does this cause my dad is a dominant a-hole...I'm glad my real mom divorced him.

The alleged pay disparity between men and women in America is too big a topic to tackle here. Suffice to say, there are good reasons for it - mostly due to education, part-time vs. full-time, etc. People that do the same work are getting paid 98% the same. 94% of job fatalities in the U.S. involve men. Why? Because they are the ones that are willing to take on physically dangerous jobs ( Male-female income disparity in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

As far as considering childrearing "work" - nobody can force a woman to have kids - that is their decision. It's not my responsibility to pay them.
I have interests, like music, that I nurtured after work - on my own and for free. Children are a hobby and luxury. You must be prepared to sacrifice for them, and not expect society to force taxpayers to foot more of the bill and even pay wages to mothers.

[slowlickitysplit]

Birdgirl,
I am a primary schol teacher. All my siblings and father are either educators or administrators. Let's remember what mark twain once said..."There are white lies, damned lies and statistics." Who paid for those studies you have quoted? You have a grown son. Think about it. Who is better able to sit and write for hours on end? Girls. Who is better suited to book learning versus hands on? Girls. The whole system is slanted towards women because women were at the heart of public education (Not university as in Plato's time) in America. I am happy to see this slowly changing. There are more and more resources for boy's particular strenghts but it is far from equal.

- Slow -

[Breukelen advocaat]

Breuk, lately every time you post, I realize that you're one of the most archaicâ??and frighteningly uninformedâ??men I've ever been acquainted with. You also distort the most simple concepts put forth by others. Cases in point below:

-
Iâ??m so glad Mrs. Greenjeans chimed in. For a while there, thought my brainy male and female friends here were probably either so perplexedâ??or so exhaustedâ??by you that they were not even going to waste their time commenting. After this, I shall follow their lead. Youâ??re not really someone who can follow simple debate points accurately enough to be able to respond logically.

I deleted most of your responses because it's ground that has already been covered.


To be called "archaic", by you, is a compliment. If you consider my life's experiences and opinions based on them to be "uninformed", then we have a difference of opinion about what elements "information" consists of.

You have a different view of what "logic" is. I can assure you that there are many people capable of deductive reasoning, and logical thinking, that do not agree with most of your opinions about feminism and other issues. Many of the "simple points", which I may often disagree with, that you accuse me of "missing", are so obvious to an intelligent person, that they would assume even a simpleton would not need to address them head-on merely to acknowledge comprehension.

[suhl]

i dont really care about feminists. girls go around dressed in next nothing and getting places on their looks, then blame it on men and the media. youd think if they knew who to blame theyd be able to do something about it. im all for equal rights, and i think women have them at this point, and the ones they dont have, well, stop blaming your problems on men and the media, get together and make a difference you know, it is like how chapelle says black people need to stop blaming their problems on white people. true, whites have held blacks in america back as men have held women back, but now equal footing is totally possible, so if you know who to blame you know you can do something about it.

[dutch.lover]

Wow. Mrs. GJ where's the love? Did i fertilize your garden? Why you jump on me? And Demeter; Negative reps? Why? because we disagree? Now I understand the pink Floyd song "We don't need no education" Better. Sure glad you're not coercing. uh, teaching my sons. Nice reasoning skills ladies!

Why do you want the right to vote? Just cause we have it? Voter appathy is at an all time high. You got the right but don't use it. We men no longer feel sole responsability for the course of our nation so why bother? Yes, that was tounge in cheek.

Wish I was enlightened enough to end this with a signature tha delt with your anatomy too. Unfortunately, my MOTHER taught me better.

- Slow -

I don't agree with Demeter giving you negative rep Slow, but I thought I would point something out to you. What you have been saying has been insulting women to no end. You may not even realize you are doing this, but you seem to be blaming women for endless amounts of things. So you make us all angry (as im sure you have noticed), and then go on to post with the attitude of a kicked puppy. Frankly, it's exhausting. You piss us all off, then you make a post that sounds like you're crying about it. The reason I am telling you this is because I am trying to be civil, and wanted to bring this to your attention.

[slowlickitysplit]

Dutch,
If I insulted anyone or any group I appologize. It certainly wasn't my aim. I was trying to show you all an alternative view and challange everyone's assumptions.

- Slow -

[dutch.lover]

i dont really care about feminists. girls go around dressed in next nothing and getting places on their looks, then blame it on men and the media. youd think if they knew who to blame theyd be able to do something about it. im all for equal rights, and i think women have them at this point, and the ones they dont have, well, stop blaming your problems on men and the media, get together and make a difference you know, it is like how chapelle says black people need to stop blaming their problems on white people. true, whites have held blacks in america back as men have held women back, but now equal footing is totally possible, so if you know who to blame you know you can do something about it.

I already covered the topic of women blaming men on THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS THREAD. I would really appreciate it if you would respect me by not wasting my time complaining about something I have already covered, and sympathize with. Here's my post in response to someone who brought up women blaming men for things such as girls having eating disorders...

True that. In my women's studies class we talk about problems like this, and their causes. I think those issues you brought up are related to the high standards of beauty our society has today. Aside from the medias direct role in that, women are actually largely to blame for those kinds of things as well.

For example, eating disorders are commonly passed down from mother to daughter. A young girl will grow up listening to her mother's negative comments about her weight, and will end up criticizing her own body as well.

Perhaps there is a male root to this all (bear with me here boys), but women are often the ones doing the reinforcement which is the most significant thing imo, because if we keep on reinforcing shit like this it will never stop. One of the biggest thing women need to realize, is their own role in this sort of thing. Women oppress women all the time, without even realizing it. We perpetuate stereotypes on a daily basis, and there is even a large occurrance of violence done to women, by women (very common in the lesbian community). Women can be racist, classist, sexist...all of which contribute to the general oppression many groups face. It's a very complex issue.

[Purple Banana]

Birdgirl,
I am a primary schol teacher. All my siblings and father are either educators or administrators. Let's remember what mark twain once said..."There are white lies, damned lies and statistics." Who paid for those studies you have quoted? You have a grown son. Think about it. Who is better able to sit and write for hours on end? Girls. Who is better suited to book learning versus hands on? Girls. The whole system is slanted towards women because women were at the heart of public education (Not university as in Plato's time) in America. I am happy to see this slowly changing. There are more and more resources for boy's particular strenghts but it is far from equal.

- Slow -

How can you claim women learn better 'by the book?' I, for one, enjoy learning hands-on, and I don't enjoy sitting for hours on end. I'm not the only one.

Primary school is a whole different ballpark from secondary and post-secondary education. Different people learn different ways; I honestly can't see how you would equate learning styles to gender-specific categories. It's all relative to the individual, not some group consensus.