Feminism (male input welcomed)

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Dutch.Lover wrote....
Here are some questions to get this thread off the ground, boys- feel free to answer them too (men can be feminists too!):

Do any of you identify yourselves as being a feminist? If so, do you feel comfortable telling other people this?

What stereotypes do you feel feminists have? Do you feel these are negative or positive?

What does feminism mean to you?

What issues do you think are most important for feminists?

Dutch, I would like to bring this back home If i may. You might have noticed this is a subject I feel pretty strongly about. I have a question....

How do you women who consider yourselves feminists feel about those women who choose to be stay at home moms? Does anyone remember how upsetting the notion was to the militant feminist that some women might preffer to be moms instead of working women?

- Slow -

I consider myself a feminist, and I am a stay at home mom. I do side jobs, and such when I need extra scratch for something special. To me, the two are not mutally exclusive. Feminism is about being able to CHOOSE my destiny, as opposed to having it DICKtated to me.*intentional misspelling*

[Psycho4Bud]

We really need a smooch smiley, cause I can't rep you any more, so here's a big ol fat kiss! MMMMuuuuuwwwaaahhhh!

How about this one:s2: or this one:s3: .......

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Yeah, I should use the first one. The second one looks a little too um, intimate. I mean, I love Dutch and all, but damn.

snicker

[Demeter]

Birdgirl, Purple Banana, Dutchlover, Mrs. G- I am so proud to read your responses and know that the intelligence of women can offset some feeble and narrow opinions that still threaten the development of the human species! I have had a similar argument many, many times in my position as an educator, and while I am usually able to maintain my patience with young men and women who haven't yet read enough or thought enough to know the facts about oppression, I felt little explosions in my head when I read what the aptly named "slow" and his ilk had to say. SO THANK YOU for saying what you did so well!

Thanks also to the men who replied in support of women's rights to choose their destiny -esp Dave Byrd, no wonder bg adores you- you recognize that feminism is a civil rights issue! You are able to see beyond the connotations the word has developed (poor "feminism"- she got demonized, big surprize, no, not in this patriarchy, surely!) to the core issues of human freedom. :thumbsup:

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

You know Dave Byrd gets maaaaaad lovin' from BG.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

- To get equal pay for equal work
We already have laws for that.
And we see how well those are being enforced. We also have a million loopholes that allow employers to disregard said laws. See my earlier post about making less money than the penis-havers.
- To receive equal educations and have teachers and professors nurture girl and women, gay, and racially diverse students in the same way they do straight white male students, from K - post-graduate professional school
Translation: Affirmative action based on sex and race. "Special" considerations, and additional coddling for said recipients. See my earlier post re: leveling the playing field.

- To get equal consideration for all jobs
See above .Ditto

- To be free from religious or political judgment or oppression
Women and minorities are not free of this type of behavior, but get away with it even more today. Back this up or back off.

- To receive and give equal courtesy (to have doors opened for us and to open doors for others, both literally and figuratively)
American men are still chivalrous, to a large extent, but you can't please everybody. Right. Just like working a fulltime job, and being Betty Crocker still hasn't made y'all happy. You live in the Bizarro world don't you?

- To be seen as intellectually equal with 25- 55-something white men no matter what gender, race, age or sexual preference we are
To be "seen", whether they are or are not intellectually equal in every case? Generally speaking, nobody really takes intelligence into account as far as these criteriaâ??s go, but who is responsible for most of the world's inventions and scientific discoveries? Oh don't get me started, I will Google you to death. Off the tippy top of my head, does the name Madame Curie ring a bell?

- To compete and be considered for physical jobs when we demonstrate physical equality (military combat and fire-fighting are two that pop into my head)
Men cannot be chivalrous and work with women in dangerous jobs at the same time. They have been raised, at least in America, to protect - and it is very dangerous for them to have women on the front lines in hazardous occupations such as firefighting. Their wives and female loved ones know this better then anyone. Oh holy. I'm not gonna touch this.I'll choke on my own venom.

- To have men of all races and geographies, particularly the ones who have a touch of machismo or religious-influenced women/gays/blacks-are-second-class-citizens attitudes, regard us as intellectual equals, and to have any women/gays/people of color who don't perceive us as such (and there are a frightening lot of them) regard us the same way
Religions are primarily supported by women, minorities, and the working class. But who is in charge of the power structure behind those religions? Men.

- To have mastery of our own physical destiny, which extends to [indent]1. Medical care (women, people of color, gays, and poor people lag behind in their quality of health care)
2. Our reproductive rights (men and women, particularly, but also transgendered people. Here I mean birth control, abortion, and surgery to add, subtract or create female or male reproductive organs )
Who is supposed to pay for this multi-minority sexual-fetish utopia? You freaking xenophobe. Who is supposed to pay for your exclusionary ideals? Everything costs money, including keeping people down.

3. Our right to die with dignity and, if we need it, with compassionate assistance[/INDENT
No argument there. :thumbsup:

- To have equal rights to marry or not to marry, whether we're women in a non-equality culture like Saudi Arabia, or gays
Let's not interfere with Saudi Arabia anymore. Yeah, we're too deeply in bed with them. Call me crazy, but if I'm getting the high hard one from somebody, I like to have a say in how thingsgo. We need to quit buying their oil, and they need to quit flying planes into our buildings.
Gays should be allowed to have civil unions equivilent to marriage. That's mighty white of you.

Why do you do this to me BA? You enjoy knowing I'm banging my forehead on my desktop? I think you do.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Hey come on pussy cat, smile a little bit..huh?

Huh?

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Doggone server lag.

I'd like to quote Lennon/Ono if I may...
"Woman is the n***** of the world."

I added the asterisks myself. Y'all know what it means.

[dutch.lover]

Wow this thread has sure taken off...my internet hasnt really been working lately so I havent been able to check up on this in awhile.

All I really have to say right now, is for newcomers who are watching the debate on the last few pages, to read the first page of this thread first. I think a lot of you (like Jack and Breulekan among others) haven't bothered to read it....in the first page I go thru what feminism is, what the goals are, what the misconceptions are, etc. It's strictly "educational" if you will, no arguing or anything, so please read it first before commenting or asking questions because I may have already covered it. Thanks.

And one more thing, to those of you who are saying/thinking "women have the same rights as men...the law says they do"...laws do not equal enforcement! Rights and laws don't mean anything unless those whom it pertains to are able to exercise those rights. Women are making much less than men in North America, and there are huge double standards. Most women work what is called the 'second shift'- they work 8+ hours a day at their job, then come home, and it's their 'job' to cook, clean and look after the kids. My stepmom does this cause my dad is a dominant a-hole...I'm glad my real mom divorced him.

[slowlickitysplit]

With trepidation I dive back in....
Birdgirl writes;
My goals? Again, these are my humanist goals, which encompass all groups who're treated unfairly. If you substituted "humanism" or "human rights" for "feminism" in your post above, Jack, you'd see the folly in it right away.
- To get equal pay for equal work
- To receive equal educations and have teachers and professors nurture girl and women, gay, and racially diverse students in the same way they do straight white male students, from K - post-graduate professional school
- To get equal consideration for all jobs
- To be free from religious or political judgment or oppression
- To receive and give equal courtesy (to have doors opened for us and to open doors for others, both literally and figuratively)
- To be seen as intellectually equal with 25- 55-something white men no matter what gender, race, age or sexual preference we are
- To compete and be considered for physical jobs when we demonstrate physical equality (military combat and fire-fighting are two that pop into my head)
- To have men of all races and geographies, particularly the ones who have a touch of machismo or religious-influenced women/gays/blacks-are-second-class-citizens attitudes, regard us as intellectual equals, and to have any women/gays/people of color who don't perceive us as such (and there are a frightening lot of them) regard us the same way
- To have mastery of our own physical destiny, which extends to

1. Medical care (women, people of color, gays, and poor people lag behind in their quality of health care)
2. Our reproductive rights (men and women, particularly, but also transgendered people. Here I mean birth control, abortion, and surgery to add, subtract or create female or male reproductive organs )
3. Our right to die with dignity and, if we need it, with compassionate assistance

- To have equal rights to marry or not to marry, whether we're women in a non-equality culture like Saudi Arabia, or gays

Lets take these one at a time..
1) Equal pay for equal work. I agree. My boss is an idiot and I should be paid more then her. But how is that a woman issue? There are laws against discrimination on gender in the work force.

2)Have teachers nurture girls? I think that's backwards. In American primary education girls get a much better education. The whole system is geared towards girls and thier ability vs. boys to sit still, verbaly comunicate, use fine motor skills and cooperate.

3)Equal courtesy? Personaly I feel it was radical feminisim that beat the stuffing out of chivilry.

4)to be treated as intelectual and physical equalls? Show me! Prove to me that you (anyone) can pass the same physical tests to become a NYC firefighter and I will treat you exactly as I treat your male counterpart. You make it sound like you want entitelment for being a woman. Sorry. Ain't gonna happen. Same for intellectual pursuits. I know many (most) women who are smarter then me. That dosen't mean I'm going to approach the next woman with the assumption she is smarter. Nope.

5) The rest of your current causes sound very much like humanisim and not feminisim.

NOW..... New thought that brought me here today...

Has/should feminisim morph into general activisim? Most of the battles have been won in this arena and I see many would be feminitst becoming involved in other social causes. Is this good? bad? Comments?

- Slow -