Feminism (male input welcomed)

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Wow. Okay.

I have what may be a different perspective on this, simply because of the time I was born. I sucked oxygen in 1969, the tail end of the civil rights movement, the middle of the feminist movement. I also come from a family full of strong broads. I've never NOT had rights, in my mind anyway. It always shocks me when I am treated as "less than" due to my race or my gender. I'm not used to it.

So, Jack, when I read something like what you posted^, I'm jarred to the core. I'm concerned on a number of levels, the chief level being that I know some no self esteem having member of my gender is going to come to this thread and tell you how fervently she agrees with you. Which will cause me to bite my tongue in twain.

To any feminists on here... what are some goals that you're actually working toward? I honestly don't see how women (at least here in Canada) don't have the same rights as men. So, I'm probably wrong about that at least... sock it to me.

I'm going to do some Googling and get back to you on this one, because here in the States, I still make only 73 cents for every USD a man makes. If the things I read here on Cdot are any indication, I am earning less than people who have little more than a brainstem

My goals as a feminist? For this conversation to be as outdated as picking a china pattern and wedding night virginity.

[Hardcore Newbie]

I don't disagree with feminism, tho I do disagree with its name. I understand that when the movement first started, it must be called something to bring awareness to the cause, but I feel the name is outdated. Women now have the same rights as men. Are they discriminated against? Yes. But they do have equal rights, as far as I know. I used to call myself an equalitist because of this. Humanist is a great term that I'm surprised that I've never heard until reading this thread, it fits me quite well.

I equate feminists with the extreme side, the women who tell other women that they're "setting [women] back 20 years" because they pose in a bikini. Equal rights doesn't mean that a woman has to uphold a certain standard, that's the exact opposite of equal rights. A woman doesn't have to do something because a "feminist" says it's what she should be doing. That's not worse that a woman having doing something because a man tells her to do something. Equal rights is about having the freedom to do what anyone else on earth can do, if you so choose. If you can't do them because of your own personal limitations, that's fine, as long as you have the choice to attempt it. I personally can't give birth, but that's a physical limitation, not because "women won't let me", and that's fine.

I also disagree with "feminists" telling me that I'll never understand what they go through as women because I'm a man.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

I also disagree with "feminists" telling me that I'll never understand what they go through as women because I'm a man.

Okay, I'll bite. Explain how it is that you can "feel" me, so to speak. Tell me your tales of oppression and menstruation.

[birdgirl73]

. . . I'm concerned on a number of levels, the chief level being that I know some no-self-esteem-having member of my gender is going to come to this thread and tell you how fervently she agrees with you. Which will cause me to bite my tongue in twain.".

If that does happen--and I passionately hope it won't--but if it does, I'm betting that agreement could only come from someone who's still a girl and who hasn't yet encountered the adult world. If a self-respecting adult woman declares her agreement with Jack, I, too, will be tongue-severed, Lady Greenjeans. And apoplectic.

To any feminists on here... what are some goals that you're actually working toward?

My goals? Again, these are my humanist goals, which encompass all groups who're treated unfairly. If you substituted "humanism" or "human rights" for "feminism" in your post above, Jack, you'd see the folly in it right away.
- To get equal pay for equal work
- To receive equal educations and have teachers and professors nurture girl and women, gay, and racially diverse students in the same way they do straight white male students, from K - post-graduate professional school
- To get equal consideration for all jobs
- To be free from religious or political judgment or oppression
- To receive and give equal courtesy (to have doors opened for us and to open doors for others, both literally and figuratively)
- To be seen as intellectually equal with 25- 55-something white men no matter what gender, race, age or sexual preference we are
- To compete and be considered for physical jobs when we demonstrate physical equality (military combat and fire-fighting are two that pop into my head)
- To have men of all races and geographies, particularly the ones who have a touch of machismo or religious-influenced women/gays/blacks-are-second-class-citizens attitudes, regard us as intellectual equals, and to have any women/gays/people of color who don't perceive us as such (and there are a frightening lot of them) regard us the same way
- To have mastery of our own physical destiny, which extends to

1. Medical care (women, people of color, gays, and poor people lag behind in their quality of health care)
2. Our reproductive rights (men and women, particularly, but also transgendered people. Here I mean birth control, abortion, and surgery to add, subtract or create female or male reproductive organs )
3. Our right to die with dignity and, if we need it, with compassionate assistance

- To have equal rights to marry or not to marry, whether we're women in a non-equality culture like Saudi Arabia, or gays

I seem to have exhausted my brain and can't think of any more, but I suspect there are lots more. I've studied for 9 hours today. So I don't have much ability to generate deep thought tonight.

[Matt the Funk]

I've decided to make another post in here. Both my parents work pretty much all day everyday and still work quite a few hours and work a lot from home. Anyways as a child I rarely saw my mom and dad. I'm not saying women should be the ones staying home, but I feel as though one of the parents should be with the child if posible. Not being with my parents allowed me to grow close to my grandmothers but keeps my family isolated and made me learn stuff on my own. My mom was also still doing houseowork such as cleaning,cooking,etc. She was really stressed out and would lash out over nothing. My dad was also under lots of pressure from work and I would see him maybe the hour before I went to bed. But the way I see it, their should be equalness and more or less responsibility. Everyone just has to take care of themselves, and if they need help they should get a little. It shouldn't be women cleaning and cooking, it should be a mix of men and women. Also women are people, and people should all be treated with the same respect and dignity. End rant.

[Breukelen advocaat]

If that does happen--and I passionately hope it won't--but if it does, I'm betting that agreement could only come from someone who's still a girl and who hasn't yet encountered the adult world. If a self-respecting adult woman declares her agreement with Jack, I, too, will be tongue-severed, Lady Greenjeans. And apoplectic.


My goals? Again, these are my humanist goals, which encompass all groups who're treated unfairly. If you substituted "humanism" or "human rights" for "feminism" in your post above, Jack, you'd see the folly in it right away.

- To get equal pay for equal work
We already have laws for that.

- To receive equal educations and have teachers and professors nurture girl and women, gay, and racially diverse students in the same way they do straight white male students, from K - post-graduate professional school
Translation: Affirmative action based on sex and race. "Special" considerations, and additional coddling for said recipients.

- To get equal consideration for all jobs
See above

- To be free from religious or political judgment or oppression
Women and minorities are not free of this type of behavior, but get away with it even more today.

- To receive and give equal courtesy (to have doors opened for us and to open doors for others, both literally and figuratively)
American men are still chivalrous, to a large extent, but you can't please everybody.

- To be seen as intellectually equal with 25- 55-something white men no matter what gender, race, age or sexual preference we are
To be "seen", whether they are or are not intellectually equal in every case? Generally speaking, nobody really takes intelligence into account as far as these criteriaâ??s go, but who is responsible for most of the world's inventions and scientific discoveries?

- To compete and be considered for physical jobs when we demonstrate physical equality (military combat and fire-fighting are two that pop into my head)
Men cannot be chivalrous and work with women in dangerous jobs at the same time. They have been raised, at least in America, to protect - and it is very dangerous for them to have women on the front lines in hazardous occupations such as firefighting. Their wives and female loved ones know this better then anyone.

- To have men of all races and geographies, particularly the ones who have a touch of machismo or religious-influenced women/gays/blacks-are-second-class-citizens attitudes, regard us as intellectual equals, and to have any women/gays/people of color who don't perceive us as such (and there are a frightening lot of them) regard us the same way
[B.Religions are primarily supported by women, minorities, and the working class. [/B]

- To have mastery of our own physical destiny, which extends to
[INDENT]1. Medical care (women, people of color, gays, and poor people lag behind in their quality of health care)
2. Our reproductive rights (men and women, particularly, but also transgendered people. Here I mean birth control, abortion, and surgery to add, subtract or create female or male reproductive organs )
Who is supposed to pay for this multi-minority sexual-fetish utopia?

3. Our right to die with dignity and, if we need it, with compassionate assistance[/INDENT
No argument there. :thumbsup:

- To have equal rights to marry or not to marry, whether we're women in a non-equality culture like Saudi Arabia, or gays
Let's not interfere with Saudi Arabia anymore. Gays should be allowed to have civil unions equivilent to marriage.

I seem to have exhausted my brain and can't think of any more, but I suspect there are lots more. I've studied for 9 hours today. So I don't have much ability to generate deep thought tonight.

Yes, it's "deep" - but I'd rather not say any more tonight, either!

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Because one creepazoid tells you he's a feminist, now you question your own belief? Oh my, that won't do.

Dear sweetie, please repeat after me :
EVERYTHING that creepy old guys say to get into my pants is FALSE!
EVERYTHING that creepy old guys say to get into my pants is FALSE!
EVERYTHING that creepy old guys say to get into my pants is FALSE!
This you must never forget:hippy:

OHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

I officially love you.

edited to say: I somehow missed an entire page of this thread. Bad cannabis, messing with my perceptions like that. For shame.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

I for one am tired of the door holding argument. I have never in my life railed at a man for holding the door for me, and I don't personally know any woman who has. I think it's some sort of troglodyte urban legend, like saying black people eat babies.

It's just plain common courtesy to hold a door open. I do it for anyone, and when people do it for me, I am appreciative and show the proper gratitude.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

This post angered me so badly I am having problems typing...so sorry if I don't make sense, perhaps I will come back to this later with a clearer head.

First off, I would like you to prove how America went downhill after we EARNED AND FOUGHT FOR the RIGHT to vote (you did not GIVE us the vote, we took it). In my opinion, America was doomed from the beginning...capitalism and Christianity's control over the country is causing this 'great decline'.

You ARE a neanderthal as far as I am concerned, because you seem to think that this world would be best if it were run solely by men.

I really hope you go around telling more people your "informed" opinion on this matter, because many other minorities would gladly tear you apart with their bare hands. When women got the right to vote, it spearheaded the equality movement for all minorities. Shortly after white women got the right to vote, women of color got to vote too. With the women's right to vote, minorities in North America were finally seen as 'people' in the eyes of the law- however, it is people like you who make many minorites still feel unhuman.

edit to say: I don't care if any of you make fun of me for getting "angry over something someone posted on the internet"... more people should care about issues, regardless of their location

We really need a smooch smiley, cause I can't rep you any more, so here's a big ol fat kiss! MMMMuuuuuwwwaaahhhh!

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Ok...First off, I am one of the most liberated men you are likely to ever meet.It's easy to be liberated when you've never been oppressed. I think Margret Thatcher was an excellent leader and so was the woman from India whose name I can't remember. Okay, that right there just tore the pocket for me. If I had to guess, you're talking about Golda Meier, and she was Israeli, not Indian. I may even vote for Clinton. How enlightened of you. Would you like some crackers with that patronization?
Second...I was playing devils advocate and I was playing to the crowd a bit but I also can't stand any kind of radicalisim; weather it is feminisim, religious or bigotry. Or apparently education.
If you don't care for it then fine, disagree and lets have an open discussion but, please, I am sensative and don't care to be called names or to have you wishing me harm.Stop acting like a woman.

- Slow -

I feel a heart problem coming on, but I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with voting and everything to do with throwback ideology. Ungh, you make Og's brain hurt.