If God Exists...

[rabbitslayer]

Exactly, so why should it matter what you believe is real or not? All of our experiences are experienced subjectively, so we really have no clue as to what "reality" actually is...only the way we percieve it, lol!

Great post, btw!


Junk~

Because if your beliefs about what is "real" affect your decisions in ways that affect other people's lives... that's trouble all around. If you believe that God will transport the souls of anyone you kill to a place of eternal bliss, why not go cap a few people? If you believe Muslims are going to Hell anyways, why not go on a Crusade and slaughter a couple hundred?

PS thanks this is an interesting conversation lol

[JunkYard]

What do you mean by God being "present" in religions and in atheists? Traditionally God has been defined as being omnipresent, that is, existing in all locations at all times, but I don't think that's what you meant.

Yes, in 'some' religions, but not all. But, what I'm saying is that perhaps no religion has it all right, but they might have a portion, or common ground by which they could work together if they chose to do so.

No, it seems the only unifying theme among all the major religions that I can think of is their belief that all other religions are false.

That's not unifying at all, is it? How about the value of love that most preach, but rarely adhere to? That'sa what I'm getting at, Oneironaut. Even Atheists find value in that, many of then anyway...

And I don't blame them, either. If you sincerely believe your religion is true, then you have to reject the possibility that other religions which contradict your own are true. If you're a Muslim and believe in the indivisibility of God, you have to reject the Christian idea of the Trinity. If you're a Jew and you think God wants people to eat cows but not pigs, you're going to have to reject the Hindu belief that God wants people to eat pigs but not cows.

Again I'm not talking about the truth of a religion, I'm talking about G-d's presence in the majority of them...even if not adhered to most the time. The common ground/theme, or unifying element within each. Just that part!

Religions are conglomerations of various ideas, each one of which is either true or false. Even if you're not a fundamentalist who believes every word of your scripture and insists on following every ritual to the letter, some of the basic tenets of your religion are going to force you to reject the basic tenets of other religions. For example, if you believe in a single entity called God, which you apparently do, you are in essence saying that every religion is false that incorporates hard polytheism (the belief that there are many gods which are not manifestations of a single entity). You are also saying that the atheist varieties of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, etc. are false religions.

So true, but we all don't have to agree, man! All we must do is find a way to get along and live in peace amongst each other...find a common ground on which to build.

I personally believe that God doesn't exist. If he really could reach me, he would have done so on one of the numerous times I have begged for some sign of his existence. He has not indicated his presence to me in any recognizable form, so I can only conclude that either he doesn't care enough to make his presence knowable or he doesn't exist. If there is some entity called God which is influencing the events of my life somehow, I have yet to see the evidence, and I can't take any hypothesis seriously unless there is at least some kind of evidence for it.

It doesn't matter if you belive or not, and G-d certainly isn't obligated to force you to believe, or make his existance known to you. Even so, you have a common ground with the many religions, imo. Then again, I don't know you very well at all, and you may very well be a heartless scrub out for blood, lol!

â??Dear Lord: The gods have been good to me. For the first time in my life, everything is absolutely perfect just the way it is. So here's the deal: You freeze everything the way it is, and I won't ask for anything more. If that is OK, please give me absolutely no sign. OK, deal. In gratitude, I present you this offering of cookies and milk. If you want me to eat them for you, give me no sign. Thy will be done. (munch munch munch)â?� â??Homer Simpson

LMAO! Classic!

[Pass That Shit]

It's not about religion. It's about faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. If you hear it, and accept it, he will come and live in your heart. After his death, (or should I say resurection) he said he will come to us, and he has.

All religions stem from the jewish religion in the bible. Religions are just acting like they are jews. Religious organizations are all man made, and a believer in God would not lay down another foundation then that which has been laid. Jesus is the Rock. The gospel is out. What gives me the right to start my own religion? We are to buy the truth and sell it not. Jesus said, come buy without money.

Religions disagree cause they make all their beliefs known. If we make all our beliefs known, how many of us will agree with each other in everything? It's very common to find two of the same religion disagreeing about spirituality or the bible.
To me, all religions are branches from the same tree.

[rabbitslayer]

All religions stem from the jewish religion in the bible. Religions are just acting like they are jews

Whoa! Even the ones that were started and practiced for hundreds of years before Abraham?

[Polymirize]

Religions are conglomerations of various ideas, each one of which is either true or false. Even if you're not a fundamentalist who believes every word of your scripture and insists on following every ritual to the letter, some of the basic tenets of your religion are going to force you to reject the basic tenets of other religions. For example, if you believe in a single entity called God, which you apparently do, you are in essence saying that every religion is false that incorporates hard polytheism (the belief that there are many gods which are not manifestations of a single entity). You are also saying that the atheist varieties of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, etc. are false religions.

I don't know why you assume that facts are the only aspect of the world. Especially ones which are distinctly either true or false. You must miss out on so much of the color of existence with that outlook.
As an example, I like athletic dark haired girls. It just does something for me. It's my belief that tight bodied athletic girls are as hot as they can be.
Let's say that you like thicker blondes. Well, you're obviously wrong.

Not really though, because of course, just because something is true for me, doesn't necessarily mean its going to be true for you. My truths don't render your own truths false.

You're thinking of god as this massive objective force. But if god is everywhere, then he's also a part of you, or maybe, you're just a part of him... So of course subjectivity is going to come into play. How do you understand god? It has to be on your own terms.

Tell me, are all universal forces aspects of the same primal force? I know they've theoretically unifed the weak and strong nuclear forces to electromagnetism... but gravity remains apart thus far. What do you think though, if you had to guess beyond the evidence, is there simply one universal force emanating in multiple ways? Or are their multiple forces interacting?

And lastly, would it matter?

[delusionsofNORMALity]

i suppose that god is best defined as an intelligence behind the creation and operation of the universe and religion as a vehicle of social control and/or change through mysticism. why do most people insist on linking the two? it seems to me the ultimate conceit that a man could understand the desires of an intelligence capable of the creation of everything and yet almost all religions claim to do just this.

modern religions give their followers a list of rules supposedly handed down from a deity and require them to follow those rules and to worship that deity in hopes of a future reward. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the only difference between government and religion is worship. of what possible use could worship be to an entity capable of envisioning and creating all of reality? maybe it's the rules that are important and the worship that is mere formality. for the most part these rules can be summed up by saying be nice and treat others with respect, all the rest seems to be nothing more than political posing and flowery prose.

god, however, has nothing to do with rules. this is an intelligence far beyond anything we could ever dream of and many religions would have us believe that we were created in his image, the audacity of that conceit amazes me. if this god were to even notice this one species on this one little rock floating in space, i doubt it would care whether we were screwing our neighbor's wives or eating pigs or whatever.

maybe the blessed are those who are thankful that the universe was created (by whatever) and that they are alive. maybe you only have to be nice and treat others with respect to be amongst the chosen. maybe we should enjoy the life we have and try to improve it instead of worrying about what comes after. if god is out there somewhere maybe we should just say a quick thanks and get on with our lives.

[JunkYard]

i suppose that god is best defined as an intelligence behind the creation and operation of the universe and religion as a vehicle of social control and/or change through mysticism. why do most people insist on linking the two? it seems to me the ultimate conceit that a man could understand the desires of an intelligence capable of the creation of everything and yet almost all religions claim to do just this.

It would be nice to seperate G-d and religion, but some people need religion to help validate thier views. I believe that G-d is many things, and yes I do believe he has a will for his ceation and every part of it. It's not about conceit, it's more about our desires to know our maker. Sure, it's impossible to fully understand something so much bigger than ourselves, and a futile endeavor to try, but what we can do is assume that he/she/it wants the best for what he made.

modern religions give their followers a list of rules supposedly handed down from a deity and require them to follow those rules and to worship that deity in hopes of a future reward. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the only difference between government and religion is worship. of what possible use could worship be to an entity capable of envisioning and creating all of reality? maybe it's the rules that are important and the worship that is mere formality. for the most part these rules can be summed up by saying be nice and treat others with respect, all the rest seems to be nothing more than political posing and flowery prose.

I'm not one who blieves that G-d demands, or needs worship at all. (Obviously) Rules are meant to be broken, and being nice just doesn't cut it when we're to know thyself. (Imo) Sure, it's good for those around you, but what does it do for self? The flowery prose is more than that as it touches on a deeper subject...condition if self, and that is what matters. We all have an opportunity to feel peace, contentment, serenity and joy in this lfe, and sometimes religion can help us achieve this state. The kicker is that most religion has been so organized and has far too many manmade rules placed to help keep the peace. The truth is that we all come to 'realization' in our own time and on our own terms. Self evaluation, and a good sense that we are all the same and in the same boat can lend some leadway into acceptance, btut it's not an easy road for most.

god, however, has nothing to do with rules. this is an intelligence far beyond anything we could ever dream of and many religions would have us believe that we were created in his image, the audacity of that conceit amazes me. if this god were to even notice this one species on this one little rock floating in space, i doubt it would care whether we were screwing our neighbor's wives or eating pigs or whatever.

Audacity? Please delusions...we are a great deal like G-d. (Imo) I should know, he's my homey, yo! We create, we destroy, we have great power, great minds, and we all wear a crown, meaning we are the dominant one's in our 'known' existance. We are kings and far too many trade in thier kingship for lesser realitities.

As far as what G-d cares about, how can we know? We can't, but religion serves as a means of becoming that which has been deemed G-ds will by man. If you think about it, all religious rules are manmade, but many of them serve as great tools to help one find satisfaction in this life. Then again, many of them serve for controling purposes, and can bite my salty chocolate balls. (Not all of them, but some)

maybe the blessed are those who are thankful that the universe was created (by whatever) and that they are alive. maybe you only have to be nice and treat others with respect to be amongst the chosen. maybe we should enjoy the life we have and try to improve it instead of worrying about what comes after. if god is out there somewhere maybe we should just say a quick thanks and get on with our lives.

YES!!! :thumbsup:

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

god damnit, sorry poly, i gave you good rep, but the bad rep button was selected i hate computers, i cant undo that mistake! >.< and now im all worked up over that i forgot what i wanted to post..... aiiieeeeeeee someone end my misery please!

[JunkYard]

god damnit, sorry poly, i gave you good rep, but the bad rep button was selected i hate computers, i cant undo that mistake! >.< and now im all worked up over that i forgot what i wanted to post..... aiiieeeeeeee someone end my misery please!

I was gonna give poly rep myself, but it was turned off at the time, then when it was turned it back on, I found that I have to spread more rep around before I can give it again, lol!

We should be able to rep who we want when we want to...

[Oneironaut]

I don't know why you assume that facts are the only aspect of the world. Especially ones which are distinctly either true or false. You must miss out on so much of the color of existence with that outlook.

As an example, I like athletic dark haired girls. It just does something for me. It's my belief that tight bodied athletic girls are as hot as they can be.
Let's say that you like thicker blondes. Well, you're obviously wrong.

Subjective opinions are not the same thing as objective facts. I don't object to religious opinions; there is no point in doing that. If a Muslim says he likes wearing turbans, or if a Hindu says he hates the smell of beef, or if a Christian says he finds thievery immoral, nobody can argue with those opinions. But if a Muslim says that there is a supernatural intelligence who wants us to wear turbans, or if a Hindu says that there is a supernatural intelligence that doesn't want us to eat cows, or if a Christian says there is a supernatural intelligence that wants us to refrain from stealing, those are claims of objective truth. All religions are full of claims of objective truth. When someone claims there is a God, that there is no hell, or that we all have immortal souls, those are claims about reality that can either be true or false. There cannot be one God and many gods and no gods all at the same time. There cannot be a hell and no hell at the same time. We cannot both possess and lack immortal souls. Just because nobody has mustered up any good objective evidence for their religious claims does not exclude them from the realm of claims about objective truth.

Not really though, because of course, just because something is true for me, doesn't necessarily mean its going to be true for you. My truths don't render your own truths false.

Your opinions don't render my opinions false. However, we still inhabit the same objective reality, where truths are truths and falsehoods are falsehoods for all observers. Subjectivity has to do with your personal emotional reactions to the objective things you perceive; objectivity encompasses everything else, including the existence or non-existence of supernatural entities.

You're thinking of god as this massive objective force. But if god is everywhere, then he's also a part of you, or maybe, you're just a part of him... So of course subjectivity is going to come into play. How do you understand god? It has to be on your own terms.

If God exists, then he must have some objective reality. The problem with your argument is that you are not defining the term "God". If there is an entity out there worthy of the name "God", then it must have some attributes which make it a god and differentiate it from things which are not gods. If it does not have any attributes that you can define, then the term "God" becomes utterly meaningless, and you might as well just substitute it with another meaningless word like "flubbertygoo" because you're not going to be able to make any coherent sentences with it. However, if it is an entity with certain definable attributes, then it must lack other definable attributes, and thus it becomes part of objective reality. It is logically possible for something to be beautiful for you and ugly for me (because it triggers different neurochemical reactions in our different brain structures), but something cannot logically exist for you and not exist for me.

Tell me, are all universal forces aspects of the same primal force? I know they've theoretically unifed the weak and strong nuclear forces to electromagnetism... but gravity remains apart thus far. What do you think though, if you had to guess beyond the evidence, is there simply one universal force emanating in multiple ways? Or are their multiple forces interacting?

That's a physics question. If there is only one unified physical force, I think it's misleading to call it "God" with all the supernatural baggage that word holds. "God" implies an entity that has consciousness, intelligence and personal relationships with human beings, which electromagnetism, gravity, etc. do not.

And lastly, would it matter?

Yes, it would matter a lot. If there is a deity out there, I would be very interested in knowing what its attributes are, how I can obtain knowledge about it, what role it plays in cosmology, how it alters events in our universe, etc. In fact, I cannot think of anything whose existence would be of more importance.