Any other "conservative" christians out there

[jsn9333]

Very nice post hazetwostep. That is the only potential problem I've found also, you hit it right on the head. The specific verse that comes to my mind is Romans 13:5, "Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience."

But like you, what comes to my mind when seeing how the majority of Bible-following Christians interpret this verse is speeding. We all do it. Well, there are a few that don't... but almost everyone does. The way I've come to see that verse is basically if I get caught speeding... submit and pay the penalty. But (here's the kicker), if I'm doing 5-7mph over chances are I probably won't even get pulled since cops and D.A.'s don't really enforce those laws until you're at least 10 or more over. So in a sense, at 7mph over the speed limit I'm still "submitting" to the authorities... maybe not to the letter of the law, but I'm at least submitting to how they enforce the laws. There are a lot of obscure laws on the books that typically aren't enforced at all or enforced very strongly. So it sort of depends how you define "submission."

To be a little more specific, the two reasons to submit given in the verse are to avoid punishment and to follow your conscience. Any law that violates God's Word (and your conscience) should definitely be followed strictly. But when it comes to laws that don't stem from any sort of moral basis, at that point the only reason to follow is to avoid punishment. And the way I see it, if you can typically break those types of laws a little bit and the government doesn't punish you at all or just punishes you a little... then in my opinion that means they aren't terribly concerned about that infraction and you're still submitting to their enforcement.

It's sort of a weird way to look at that verse. However, its really the only way it makes sense to me given that it is actually *unsafe* to follow the letter of the law sometimes (like when everyone around you on the Interstate is doing 15mph over and you're doing 1mph making them dodge you!) and even the authorities themselves don't follow all the laws.

I of course would not argue with a Christian who feels that all laws should be obeyed. If that is where their heart leads them, then that's where they need to be. But I would question their consistency of they were ok with a little speeding, but freaked out if someone smoked a joint... you know?

What helps is that my state (North Carolina) has decriminalized marijuana to a large extent. So simple possession (1st offense) typically gets you a $100 fine and your record stays clear. So I sort of see that as one of those laws the state doesn't really care too much about.

That being said, I couldn't justify a huge grow operation, since the state obviously cares very much about that (years in the slammer). I'm thinking about growing a plant or two of my own now... and I'm still considering the risks, the legal ramifications, etc. I think even one plant could get me 12 months in jail and a felony conviction. And if they decided to hand the case over to the feds for whatever reason I could get 5 years. But, chances are one plant would be dealt with lightly.

So yeah... I'm having questions about growing. But I don't really have options where I'm at since I don't know any dealers. So I my just try to flower one plant, keep it small, and try to keep my yield down.

P.S. - Yeah really... how we got onto the slavery kick I have no clue. Anyways, very good point.

is this a slavery thread now???

jsn9333... you are not alone but you are in the vast majority! even though weed is much less harmful, that is not the angle other conservative christians will ping you on. they will ping you on "obedience" to the law of the land.. as you know the Bible is huge on obedience and authority.

you could always argue back at anyone who breaks any laws (like driving 1mph over the speed limit, etc) that they do the same... but the fact is that if you are a conservative bible believing christian, you have to justsify willingly participating in illegal behaviors (though they should not be illegal, the fact is that they are).

so if you can justify that aspect in your mind soundly, then more power to you! that is a tough one to get around though... if you figure it out, let me know!!! haha... the only way i could imagine working around it (from a biblical standpoint) is if it is a key part of your spirituality and you felt it was an "oppressive" and hindering law to your walk with Christ (that wouldn't include recreational use though).

anyway, i would love to talk more as it is an issue (though this is a slavery thread now) i have faced for a long time!

[Oneironaut]

Any other "conservative" christians out there

Well, if by "conservative" Christian you mean "far left" atheist, then yes, that would be me.

The Bible, as far as I can tell, is total bullshit. The Old Testament is pretty much a rationalization written by the political leaders of Israel, and appealing to the primitive mythical beliefs of the time, to justify the brutal invasion of their Lebensraum and the ruthless genocide against the "sinful" races of people they see as sub-human, an act I find morally indistinguishable from Hitler's invasion of Poland.

The New Testament goes to the other extreme, when Jesus tells us that God was just kidding with all those orders to go out and kill people and plunder their land. Instead, God really wants us to just be big pussies by not resisting evil and instantly forgiving everybody for everything. We're supposed to love our enemies and do good things to the people who hate us, in the hope that there is a God who will eventually get around to punishing evil people with eternal hellfire. Basically, Jesus tells us to not fight anybody ever, even if Nazis are taking over the town killing everybody. We're supposed to practice some kind of ultra-pacifism and forgive everybody, because we're supposed to have faith that there's a forgiving God who loves everybody but who is willing to send huge portions of humanity into an eternal torture device with no chance of forgiveness ever.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Oneironaut]

By the way, if you're wondering why so many really religious Christians smoke weed, it's actually quite simple. Religion is, by its very nature, an institution based on authority and tradition. Without authorities and traditions, religions die out, because they have their roots planted firmly in the past and they have a hard time getting with the times. Religious institutions and very religious groups are always the last to accept social progress, be it gender equality, the abolition of monarchy, acceptance of homosexuality, or tolerance for recreational drug use.

Religious people tend to listen to authority, and they tend to follow "traditional values" for the sake of following "traditional values". Their rejection of weed has nothing to do with anything in the Bible and everything to do with religious people's willingness to follow authority and tradition more than the rest of the population. Conservative people tend to be religious, and they tend to also not like pot smoking, while leftists tend to be non-religious (or at least they tend not to follow religious traditions/authorities) and tend to like the ganja. I know of plenty of socialists who smoke pot, but very few Republicans who do.

[Oneironaut]

By the way, if you're wondering why so many really religious Christians smoke weed, it's actually quite simple.

Sorry, I'm fucked up. :jointsmile:

Replace the word "many" with "few".

[xblackdogx]

Yes, slavery existed in the old testament. One thing to keep in mind is that often being a slave was more of what we, nowadays, would call being a "servant". People would sell themselves into slavery as a means to escape poverty. This is quite different from the early American/African version of slavery that comments like, "men of dark skin were bred to serve," bring to mind.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Christ along with the New Testament came after the Old Testament and brought it into new light. The Old Testament is followed strictly by no one nowadays... not even orthodox Jews. Christians generally still obey parts of the Old Testament that are repeated in the New, such as the 10 commandments, etc. But most of the intricate commandments of the Old Testament are not applicable today.

While the Old Testament is useful to get a picture of how God has worked in the past, it is useless to live by today. It had its purpose, and that purpose was to point to Christ and the better way that is available to us all today. The new testament says in the book of Hebrews chpt 7, "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." That better hope is Christ, and the New Testament.


In order to criticize Christianity (which isn't necessarily a bad thing to do), it is generally a good idea to either quote a particular Christian directly or to quote the New Testament. Much of the Old Testament (at least the by-law type parts that you have cited) is irrelevant to the beliefs of Christians. To cite random verses from the Old Testament in order to show something about Christian beliefs often just shows an ignorance of what Christianity actually is. I'm not saying that is you... but I'm just not sure how the Old Testament verses about slavery is relevant to modern Christian beliefs.

either way,
the Old Testament in those quotes are laying the foundation
of racism to be exploited in the centuries to follow.
this idea that foreigners aren't equal, and "your race" is to
be favored because of where you happened to be born are things that have continued unto today.

[jsn9333]

either way,
the Old Testament in those quotes are laying the foundation
of racism to be exploited in the centuries to follow.
this idea that foreigners aren't equal, and "your race" is to
be favored because of where you happened to be born are things that have continued unto today.

I would say you most likely haven't even bothered reading what your criticizing (the Old Testament). Am I right? The preference God shows for the people of Israel over the people of other ancestry is not based on race ("racism" as you say), but rather is based on the religion of those people. They happened to be of a different race, most of the time, but the point is their faith (or lack there of). There were times unbelieving Israelis were killed, punished, and what not. And believing foreigners would also covert at times and not be punished. Those who place faith in God are rewarded, those who do not are punished. It's that simple. That God has a preference toward those of his creation that trust, love, respect, and obey Him is not surprising.

And as I said before, speaking of racism and evil, some of the greatest abusers were Atheists, mind you (Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, etc...). Tens of millions of people were slaughtered because of their race and heritage by these people, who denied all aspects of religion. Be sure to take a look at the history books before you go blaming the Old Testament on all that ails the world.

[jsn9333]

Right before Jesus went to heaven and left the disciples he said to them, in the book of Luke, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." He was telling them to back their bags and their swords for some traveling. Hardly wanting them to be "big pussies". That being said, he did command them specifically to not defend and spread the faith with the sword. That is a major separation between Christianity and Islam. But self-defense (the main thing people traveling would use a sword for) was a different story. He never tells anyone to not defend themselves from violence, and in fact that would be the only use for the swords he tells his disciples to buy.

What you're probably thinking of as far as being "big pussies" is his command to turn the other cheek if someone slaps you. But think of what he is saying. A slap in those days was much like how you think of the egotistical frenchman who takes his glove and wisks it across your face. It was an offense, much like giving someone the bird would be today. Christ is *not* saying if someone starts pummeling you with closed fists you should just take it until you die or get knocked out. He's saying if someone insults you, don't return the favor. It really is a nice way to live, to be honest. Try it sometime. Before I lived by His ways, if someone would cut me off on the road, I'd rush up to cut them off right back, and it would continue and continue until maybe we even exchanged words and almost fought. Or if someone insulted me under his breath I'd get in his face and tell him to say it again. Nowadays I let little piddly shit like that just roll off me... its no big deal. Whenever possible we're to try to be peaceful. It is a much better way to live. But if someone is kicking your ass for no fucking reason, then peace isn't even an option at that point, is it?

Have you even read the entirety of the New Testament? Sometimes I get the feeling that the people who feel the strongest against the Bible have never even read the whole thing with an open mind to really learn for themselves what it is all about.

And as far as the Old Testament killings and what not, those who place faith in God are rewarded, those who do not are punished. It's that simple. That God has a preference toward those of his creation that trust, love, respect, and obey Him is not surprising. Whether or not you see it as so, the fact is, that is on a totally different level then Adolf killing millions simply because of their race. God is the creator, and if He intends to punish those of his created who rebel against Him He is entirely in the right to do so.

Well, if by "conservative" Christian you mean "far left" atheist, then yes, that would be me.

The Bible, as far as I can tell, is total bullshit. The Old Testament is pretty much a rationalization written by the political leaders of Israel, and appealing to the primitive mythical beliefs of the time, to justify the brutal invasion of their Lebensraum and the ruthless genocide against the "sinful" races of people they see as sub-human, an act I find morally indistinguishable from Hitler's invasion of Poland.

The New Testament goes to the other extreme, when Jesus tells us that God was just kidding with all those orders to go out and kill people and plunder their land. Instead, God really wants us to just be big pussies by not resisting evil and instantly forgiving everybody for everything. We're supposed to love our enemies and do good things to the people who hate us, in the hope that there is a God who will eventually get around to punishing evil people with eternal hellfire. Basically, Jesus tells us to not fight anybody ever, even if Nazis are taking over the town killing everybody. We're supposed to practice some kind of ultra-pacifism and forgive everybody, because we're supposed to have faith that there's a forgiving God who loves everybody but who is willing to send huge portions of humanity into an eternal torture device with no chance of forgiveness ever.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

those who place faith in God are rewarded, those who do not are punished. It's that simple. That God has a preference toward those of his creation that trust, love, respect, and obey Him is not surprising. Whether or not you see it as so, the fact is, that is on a totally different level then Adolf killing millions simply because of their race. God is the creator, and if He intends to punish those of his created who rebel against Him He is entirely in the right to do so.

love, trust, respect and obedience are not to be carelessly doled out, they are our most cherished feelings and must be earned or they become worthless.

if a man were to come to you and tell you that i created all things for you, would you respect and obey me? if a man were to tell you that i adored you above all others, would you love me? if a man were to attribute great deeds and miracles to me, would you respect me? no, of course not. if these men's words were collected and published, would you worship me and if you refused would i be justified in punishing you? yet all these things are expected of humanity by your supposedly all powerful deity.

were i omnipotent, why wouldn't i give my creations some slight glimmer of proof to cement their faith? were i omnipresent, why would a small example of my presence be so out of the question? how could any caring being expect all for no apparent reason? if we are created in his image then we must contain some semblance of his mind and logic and this is totally illogical for a loving god.

i would love to have the blind faith needed for true belief, but i don't. it wouldn't take much in the way of proof to sway me, but i am given none. one of my few fears in life is that this god of yours does exist and that it is so apathetic that we would be better off without it.

[jsn9333]

love, trust, respect and obedience are not to be carelessly doled out, they are our most cherished feelings and must be earned or they become worthless.

if a man were to come to you and tell you that i created all things for you, would you respect and obey me? if a man were to tell you that i adored you above all others, would you love me? if a man were to attribute great deeds and miracles to me, would you respect me? no, of course not. if these men's words were collected and published, would you worship me and if you refused would i be justified in punishing you? yet all these things are expected of humanity by your supposedly all powerful deity.

were i omnipotent, why wouldn't i give my creations some slight glimmer of proof to cement their faith? were i omnipresent, why would a small example of my presence be so out of the question? how could any caring being expect all for no apparent reason? if we are created in his image then we must contain some semblance of his mind and logic and this is totally illogical for a loving god.

i would love to have the blind faith needed for true belief, but i don't. it wouldn't take much in the way of proof to sway me, but i am given none. one of my few fears in life is that this god of yours does exist and that it is so apathetic that we would be better off without it.

If you created me, and I rebelled against you... then yes, you would be justified in punishing me. And I don't believe there is no proof of God nor Christ. Perhaps you haven't recognized it yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. I know this much, there is more to "seeing" then just our physical eyes.

Jesus tells a story in the Bible about a man who lived a life of disobedience and went to hell. In hell he cried out to God and begged for a drop of water and for one chance to see his family again, just for a minute, to warn them of what awaited them unless then turned back to God. Jesus' answer was that if his family did not turn to God from hearing the word of God, the Bible, which was available to them, then they wouldn't turn even if the dead were raised.

I don't understand why that is, but what he is saying is that people will always find a reason to believe whatever they want to believe. And the fact is, I know that is true. I've done it myself. We can talk ourselves into (or out of) anything that we want to. Our minds are extremely powerful, and can be extremely manipulative... even manipulating ourselves.

God's presence surrounds us every day. I never realized that until I became a Christian, but now I can't avoid it even if I want to. Besides that, there is immense historical "proof" of Christ's ressurection as well. Never in history have 12 men died for what they knew was a lie, at least not 12 men who had no financial gain from it or sexual gain or what have you. But that is exactly what happened with the disciples of Christ, the twelve Apostles. By all accounts these men did not gain riches, wives, land, or any of the things that plague so many religion's beginnings. These men believed in the ressurection so much they died for it, each and every one of them. That is history, not just a made up story.

They history of Christ himself gets a little more debated depending if the historian is a beleiver or not, which is expected given the moral implications and life changes each person has to face if he decides Christ really was God incarnate, and to be obeyed. But this much is obvious to me: Either Christ was the greatest con-man to ever have walked the planet, or He was the ressurected King of Kings his disciples claimed him to be. He was either a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord. This, "he was just a good guy with some good basic moral instructions" business doesn't fly with how his immediate disciples carried on the core tenants of the faith He preached to them, living and dying by them.

And after reading his word and praying to see the truth my spiritual eyes have seen who he really is. If yours haven't then I can't blame you for feeling that there is no proof. I used to feel the same way. My suggestion would be to read the New Testament, read some of the historical accounts of Christ, and then decide for yourself if you think he is who he said he was. By all means read and research other religions as well. But don't just give up on religion. For if the atheist position is right... then we all die and cease to exist... big deal. But if the biblical Christian perspective is the right one... then some of us are on a path no one would want to be on.

[jsn9333]

That's great! Thanks bro,

I'm a very faithful person. I read scripture daily and I feel as if I'm with God all day.I believe in Biblical inerrancy. And I smoke almost everyday.