If their was ever nothing could their be something today?

[Polymirize]

i've never understood this question as framed. People use it as if it supports one side of the god argument and not the other.

it would seem that if spontaneous generation (something from nothing) is a problem, its just as big a problem for the believer who thinks that God arose out of nothing. If god gets around this hurtle by being eternal, I fail to understand why the view that the universe is eternal can't do the same.

What's more, the whole "ex nihlo nihil fit" premise seems questionable. Says who? Ever looked into quantum theory?

Regardless of whether you believe in an eternal god or an oscillating universe (bang-crunch-bang), or question the premise that nothing comes from nothing, the fact of the situation is that its outside our current understanding of reality.

You can either admit to that and explore the possibilities, or you can just assume its god. God, that miraculous figure who makes all unexplanable phenomena possible. His workload has probably lightened up considerably since Newton discovered gravity though...

[stinkyattic]

What's more, the whole "ex nihlo nihil fit" premise seems questionable. Says who? Ever looked into quantum theory?

........the fact of the situation is that its outside our current understanding of reality.

......You can either admit to that and explore the possibilities, or you can just assume its god.

..... His workload has probably lightened up considerably since Newton discovered gravity though...

Great response! All that and funny too!

[Pass That Shit]

"it would seem that if spontaneous generation (something from nothing) is a problem, its just as big a problem for the believer who thinks that God arose out of nothing."

God has always been. He didn't arise out of nothing.
Do you feel that the "life" you believe in has always been? Or do you feel it came from nothing?
God or not, there's an eternal "energy" out there.

[harris7]

God or not, there's an eternal "energy" out there.

Pass that,
I... I.... agree?
is that possible
this is like the closes we will ever get to agreeing.

cool

[sm0k1t]

Yep that seems to fit the picture. Eternal energy seems right if we compare it to anything the world knows...if your computer is not connected with a source of energy is fonctionnalities will cease or die. Same thing for life. but we know that death or inanimated objects or materials does not need energy or is du to an absence of energy.

Actually the real problem is if there is a source of energy that is infinite or finite like the sun...(meaning creation of energy, so there is different quantities of it)

or if there is always energy and it never dissipates( does'nt disapear or burn out, maybe just changes is form ( heat, cold, wind, electricity, vibrations etc etc) without modifying the quantity but maybe is intensity)

or there is both....sounds possible but not yet proved i guess

what do you guys think?

[Polymirize]

"it would seem that if spontaneous generation (something from nothing) is a problem, its just as big a problem for the believer who thinks that God arose out of nothing."

God has always been. He didn't arise out of nothing.
Do you feel that the "life" you believe in has always been? Or do you feel it came from nothing?
God or not, there's an eternal "energy" out there.

You have to read the next sentence as well

Basically my point was that this isn't a problem for anyone unless its a problem for everyone, so I didn't see the point of trying to shore up a argument for (or against) god with it.
Both would do so in woeful ignorance of... well, our own ignorance.

I think I probably agree with your eternalist perspective. But I'm also very interested in the 'faith' we have in the particular concept of causality.

if everything happens for a reason then all things can be traced back to an initial "first cause". This could be god, this could be the first motion of the big bang. You still have the dilemna of what caused that first cause, and you might be forced to conclude that somehow, it just caused itself, spontaneously. Or you might conclude that causality itself must be flawed, in which case, maybe things happen without a reason all the time.

Just some thoughts.

And smok1t, all matter is energy. When a candle burns, its the molecules in the wax that are combusted that give off the energy of heat and light. The sun does the same thing on a vastly different scale. As such, you'd be right in saying that there is only energy in different forms, but science seems to predict a move from order to entrophy, basically that all that energy will eventually become spread out, probably eventually spelling an end to matter, except in residuals.

Actually, I've just realised I'm not entirely sure where you're trying to take that anyway. Clarify?

[Pass That Shit]

"And smok1t, all matter is energy. When a candle burns, its the molecules in the wax that are combusted that give off the energy of heat and light. The sun does the same thing on a vastly different scale."

How does the candle get lit? Who lights the candle? The sun is the candle of the world. And yes, it was lit by a man.

[harris7]

Assuming our laws of physics are correct.

The universe couldn’t have existed forever as I would have reached thermal equilibrium. IE heat energy would have spread out and everything would be the same temperature

[Pass That Shit]

I know who lit this candle.

How do we get weed? It takes knowledge to grow it. It takes work. It takes labor.
Weed does not grow on earth because of evolution or big bang. The seed was planted on earth and given proper environment.
My weed sure didn't grow by luck. I had something to do with it. Everything is of itself. Everything comes from seed.

Disregarding the wisdom in creation is not the way to go. How do you explain the evolution of life? You think this design is by luck? The man has the seed and plants in the female. Next the seed grows inside the woman and comes into the world. We multiply and keep living. What does evolution or the big bang have to do with this design? Did evolution bring us this cycle of life? I don't see anything evolving so I don't believe in evolution. What I see is a design and a cycle in everything living.

[harris7]

I don't see anything evolving so I don't believe in evolution.

You also donâ??t see atoms, or Alaska, or me, or George W bush .

Do we not exist? By your logic we donâ??t.

Oh, You also donâ??t see god.

So no god either